America have given Europe alot. ALOT! But no one system is perfect. I dont see Scandinavia as socialistic area. Its just that America is soooo afraid of the government getting involved, its redicilous.
All countries in Europe take care of their sick.
All major world powers take care of their sick.
All but one... The country I adored in the 80´s. USA.
Im not flaming the US. I WANT the US to succeed. Whats good for the US is good for Europe.
Learn from our mistakes, US. And take care of your sick.
we only have two options, get on board with the socialism obamacare or get healthcare through insurance companies that will deny more claims so they will make more money. Pick your poison
"thereinliestherib" is correct when he says that individual weakness, self harm and irresponsibly:-To much bad eating, to little exercise, smoking ,alcohol and drug abuse not to mention to many children being born into families that are not able to finically support them must add a vast amount to the costs of running a Nations health and welfare systems. The question to be asked, is it right in a civilised society that this cost is found out of the pockets of the sensible and mature? Discuss.
@davijeph from a moral point, is it fair to screw over anyone who truly needs care to make sure the people who have unhealthy habits don't get a 'free ride'? Also not everyone who is fat is fat because of poor habits...there's genetics, and poverty can play a big role in this as well.
From a financial point it's a no brainer. The public system is 1/3 less expensive for everyone, and in the private system many people who actually have good health habits can't afford coverage.
@DeathToTheDictators I agree that the various types of UHC's most advanced countries use represent a far more cost effective and morally superior health care than that used presently in the US. But the point raised by "thereinliestherib" is valid the cost to those UHC's systems by those who choose not take reasonable care for their own health is very great. However, there are ways to alleviate that cost namely the heavily taxing of those items that contribute to that abuse smoking, alcohol etc.
@davijeph there's no doubt the irresponsible people are a major cost to HC, but therib's argument was that there shouldn't be a public care system because of the irresponsible people. The reality is, a public system makes paying for HC cheaper...no matter if you have 'irresponsible people' we all have to pay for, or every citizen is healthy..
@DeathToTheDictators We both agree in effect we are saying any society that calls itself civilised must allow any individual no matter what that individuals circumstances access to whatever healthcare is available . In the US an insane mass child murderer serving a life time incarceration in some mental institution will automatically have his health care needs dealt with without reference to cost when some perfectly decent person on a low income will not. Got to be wrong.
"thereinliestherib" and I have been discussing the pro's and con's of UHC's versus the US private insurance system. Agreeing (I think) that UHC's are a good idea but from "thereinliestherib" point of view only if those who wiling choose too abuse their own bodies are made too take more responsibility for their behaviour (hope I got that right "thereinliestherib". If so you might find the article on obesity too be found on the BBC homepage interesting ".bbc.co.uk/news/health". (regards).
New from the BBC "The rising rates of diabetes mean the condition now accounts for nearly a 10th of the annual NHS drugs bill in England, official figures show. Some £725m was spent on diabetes drug in 2010-11 - 8.4% of the total bill." The report explains the bulk of this cost is spent on type2 diabetes (associated with poor life style). Many items that are associated with type2 diabetes sweets (candy), alcohol, smoking carry high taxes in part to help pay for the damage they do.
Even if imperfect people and who is not, do harmful things to themselves, drink, smoke, eat to much, take drugs, do dangerous sports, drive unsafely don't exercise enough and in doing so harm to themselves and maybe others they are still part of our societies. Even if they manage to contribute nothing they are still part of us and we are part of them. Not to help them when in need might be economically justifiable but beware of the society that does not help it needs a heart not just a head.
@davijeph Wuddup Davijeph! You're failing to address that these "innocent" irresponsibly unhealthy masses (who cut across all social and economic lines) have failed in their duty toward society to act responsibly. It is because of that failure that many people cannot afford proper care, placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of the unhealthy and unwilling. So let's make a fat/cigarette tax already, and be done with it.
@thereinliestherib Up to a point you are right, I don't condone irresponsible behaviour and if you remember some time ago I pointed out that heavy taxes are placed on things like alcohol and tobacco in the UK to help offset the medical costs those products produce. But even if that did not happen the question must be asked not how irresponsible are they but what kind of people are we? Could you really leave say a smoker to die in agony with untreated lung cancer just because he smoked?
@davijeph You didn't point out those taxes; I did, and you disagreed until I provided you with further data. The cost of providing a smoker with exorbitantly expensive healthcare treatments could be cost the necessary care for ten others who did not engage in such stupid behavior. Unhealthy people assume the risk of their actions, and the extraordinary public costs of those actions deprive others of critical resources of which they have far greater need.
@thereinliestherib Sorry, but when it came too explaining the taxes placed on tobacco and alcohol in the UK I took some time in explaining them to you which you seem to approve of. I take it that you really would allow people to live and die in agony just because you disapprove of some aspect of there life style. That is of matter for you and your own values and conscience hopefully the bulk of US citizenry (or even Uganda) manage too maintain a heart and soul as well as a brain.
@davijeph Nope, I was the one who brought up taxes, a point with which you initially disagreed. You're still skirting the inconsistency in your views of social responsibility--if I have a responsibility toward someone else's costs, then that person is responsible for not being an undue burden on others ability to claim that same privilige. But last we left off, we half agreed--I'd support universal HC here ONLY if funded through taxes on the unhealthy goods and services driving up costs.
@thereinliestherib "I'd support universal HC here ONLY if funded through taxes on the unhealthy goods and services driving up costs." Then we agree I hope you are working to achieve that. In the mean time I take it that you really would allow people to live and die in agony just because you disapprove of some aspect of there life style? A simple yes or no will do . Regards
@davijeph Damn right we agree, and I am working on it. But you still haven't addressed the inconsistency in your view that one person is responsible for another person's irresponsibility--that's the definition of bad faith, because it only preserves the irresponsibility of that person, at the cost of others who truly need those resources through no fault of their own. Smokers and fat people knowingly assume the risks of their behavior; just as drunk drivers, murderers, drug dealers... etc.
@thereinliestherib I don't see that my views are inconsistent. It is quite consistent to say that wherever possible things that can cause illness tobacco, alcohol, high sugar or fat content should have a health tax imposed, is not incompatible with saying if you are ill because of life style choices you still have the right to medical care. The reason why people must be treated regardless of life style or circumstances is simple, common humanity and decency.
@thereinliestherib I assume you disagree but how and who in a civilised society makes the decision that says because this drug ,smoking ,alcohol addict can no longer afford treatment for his illness he should be left to die in agony. Unlike say social welfare payments healthcare should not be a case of taking resources away from the "deserving" and giving it to the "undeserving" but ensuring all citizens get the care they need irrespective of financial or other circumstances.
@davijeph You either make such difficult choices before they are necessary, or you wait until public resources are all gone, and the decision is made for everyone, regardless (which is where we're already at in the states). That's the economic law of finitude. If everyone acted so irresponsibly, then no one would receive any care at all. I grew up dirt poor and lost siblings to drugs and poor health--and I will say without a doubt, poor health is a personal choice.
@davijeph You're still ignoring the distinction I'm pointing out. You cannot help those who refuse to help themselves and who knowingly engage in behavior that entails enormous costs for others. The opportunity cost of spending so wastefully is investing in causes of far greater utility and need, such as education. Nevermind--we agree that a truly progressive HC system would be based on taxes on the unhealthy behaviors with the greatest adverse effect on cost, and I appreciate that.
@thereinliestherib I am not ignoring it at all. I am simply saying in the final analysis any society that calls itself civilised must try and help everyone within in that society. You cannot but help anyone who is ill irrespective of how they acquired their illness. True any sane individual must be held responsible for there actions if you harm another person or there property while drunk or on drugs then punishment should follow but drug user or not we cannot but try and treat there illness.
@davijeph We agree that taxes on unhealthy goods and services are necessary to offset the overwhelming costs of personal irresponsibility, and that's enough for me. In regards to that, I think we're ignoring that we can agree more than disagree. If you lived in the US and could see just how much insanely poor health plagues this country (and how we just culturally ignore it) I think your views would shift a bit toward the responsibility end versus the entitlement end of the spectrum.
@thereinliestherib1/3 If I can make one last point about what you have just written regarding your last sentence. From what I understand from my own family and reading about healthcare in the UK before the advent of the NHS in 1947 when most of the slum dwelling poor would have little or nothing in the way of health insurance. My father a miner and breadwinner contributing to an insurance club called "the lump" it looked his after basic healthcare.
@thereinliestherib 2/3The rest of the family surviving on very basic charity when things went wrong leading to very high deaths rates and short life expectancy among the very poor. After WWII even though the UK was financially destroyed the NHS came into being at the demand of the working class who where fed up being treated like shit by their supposed betters.
@thereinliestherib 3/3The result? After 60+years of UHC no sane person rich or poor would think about getting rid of the NHS even with its faults. From what I have learnt about the US health system at its best must be great at its worse it is a National disgrace. In terms of having a discussion we are doing OK no insults and a certain respect and understanding for the other sides point of view. If you wish to end here I'm happy with that. Regards
@davijeph We have no disagreement. It's quite eloquent actually, because however we might disagree on ethics, if a universal system were funded substantially through taxes on the behaviors most driving up costs, then there's equity in the system. It would basically make our disagreements irrelevant. Such a system would be A-okay with me.
Conservative: “I really hate having my hard-earned money taken from me to pay taxes that go to the poor and unemployed. I could have used that money to buy a brand new car!” Liberal: “Typical greedy-Conservative! No Compassion! Sorry, you’re going to have to forego this year’s brand new car to do something good for once, like help the needy.” Unemployed Assembly Worker: “I wish people would just start buying new cars so I could get of these welfare checks and get my old job back!"
@mdstalla Or alternatively and rather more on topic, how about adopting something similar to the French system, get overall better healthcare results for less than half the cost, a healthier more productive workforce and then the money switching from the current inefficient overpriced US healthcare system to a French type system can be spent on new cars or anything else.
@somename99 Europe’s on the verge of collapse-- they’re rioting in the streets because their governments (operating at a 90% tax burden) are folding like dominos precisely because they can’t afford the pipedream of ‘better care at half the cost (if it sounds too good to be true….).’ Like everything else Liberal; Europe’s cradle to grave entitlement programs are the most wonderful/generous programs that ever garneted despotism and poverty. And assholes like you want that here? Unbelievable!
@mdstalla Their healthcare is less of a burden than the US system, certain countries are in trouble - Greece, Portugal, Ireland, etc that borrowed / spent beyond their means because they borrowed on the Euro at rates which were based off responsibly run economies like Germany, Sweden, etc. Every other developed nation has universal healthcare from Australia to Japan, the US is the exception and guess what it costs US citizens twice as much for a system that's not even rated top.
@somename99 Contrary to brilliant minds such as Michal Moore; Frances med. Program is $14B in debt and sharply rising—huge for a country 1/5 the size of the US. No, France is prepped for the same fate as her Socialist neighbors. Worse, no one is entering the medial industry in Europe; any new innovations, drugs or treatments are coming from abroad precisely because doctors make the equivalent of High school teachers in the US. Free treatment means little to someone with an incurable disease.
@mdstalla Hilarious, $14b is nothing in terms of healthcare spending, the US spends over $2 trillion yearly, France could up the contributions a bit, remove that debt and still leave the French citizen spending about half what every US citizen pays, whilst receiving a higher rated level of healthcare.
The US system is an inefficient rip off, full of waste, do you know what percentage of the Australian healthcare budget goes on admin - 3%, Singapore - 2.9%, UK - 4.6%, the US 7.6%.
@mdstalla You seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder about "socialism", firstly every country developed country other than the US has universal healthcare, even Singapore, are they socialist? Secondly find someone to teach you what socialism is, becuase it certainly isn't Europe, a key tennent of socialism is state or collective ownership, most European countries have done the complete opposite and privitised most of their old state run industries.
@somename99"firstly every country developed country other than the US has universal healthcare" That's such crap, and of course, such propaganda. I dare you to name any other country in the entire freaking world with as poor health, and thus as high pool risk, as the US. Name one. 1. 1. 11111... There is no way a socialized system would/could do anything but exacerbate America's complete disregard for personal health.
@somename99 "unsubstantiated hyperbole," translation= "I can't respond with facts, so I'll just throw out lefty boilerplate and ignore the truth of a claim."
Name 1 country. Go for it. Prove me wrong. I am giving you the opportunity. Then tell me what the most prevalent and costly ailments are in America. The goal is completely open, my team is off the field, and you've got unlimited penalty kicks. Can't wait to see if you take it.
@thereinliestherib You haven't provided any facts, hence it is hyperbole, you have provided zilch to backup your claims that: 1 - The US has significantly poorer health than the rest of the developed world, 2) What percentage of total US healthcare spending is attributable to the "poor health".
I assume you must have figures for this, so lets see them, to keep it simple provide the figures for obesity & smoking in France / US and the percentage of health spending these account for.
@somename99 HA! Keep evadin' pal! Show me one other country in the world with a near 75% obesity/overweight rate. Name one country with comparable rates for ZERO exercise, hours in front of a tv, smoking, or drug abuse. Come on dude--I've given you the facts and you're throwing the reins under the carriage in a futile attempt to prevent declaring or defending your claims. High pool risk in the US, directly due to poor national health, is the primary reason our HC is so insanely expensive.
@thereinliestherib You're the one making the claim, not me, backup your hyperbole with facts, you do understand what facts are right? You can comprehend that spouting the obesity rate of the US is meaningless without comparison? That it is meaningless without knowing what percentage of cost are attributable to it, so come on , show us all the obesity / smoking rates for France / US and what fraction of healthcare cost are down to them.
@somename99 Yes, and I asked you to provide those comparative stats yourself, because you would have had to admit that the rest of the world is substantially lower in terms of poor health rates, and thus far lower in terms of pool risk/cost. And your utter failure to do so shows your deceit. France: 42%overweight/11%obese. UK: 60%/22% Sweden: 9% obesity. You're a deluded lost-cause if you deny the direct causal relationship between national health and subsequent HC costs.
@somename99 Now, show me your knowledge of HC costs and tell me what the most prevalent and costly diseases are in the US, and whether or not their causes are personal or environmental/congenital. You're metaphorically arguing that drunk/drugged driving wouldn't effect insurance costs, in a hypothetical situation where those costs skyrocketed and over 75% of drivers were impaired in some way. This will be hilarious. And educational.
@thereinliestherib In regard to your metaphorical nonsense, learn to read, I am quite sure drink / drugs / obesity, etc do effect healthcare costs (I've never stated differently), but despite being repeatedly asked, you have provided no figures to show what percentage of healthcare costs it accounts for or the difference with France. Hence your claims as they stand are laughable.
@thereinliestherib So far you've given one figure for US obesity and after two attempts you have provided a figure for France, so now give as the smoking figures and the percentage of healthcare costs attributable to those factors.
Really it helps if you do the research before coming to an opinion, rather than simply repeating what mummy, daddy & Bill O'Reilly spout without thinking, it makes you look less of an idiot when someone asks you to back up your claim.
@thereinliestherib I have responded to your "argument", in the only logical way, I am doubtful of your claim, thus I've asked you to provide facts to support your "argument". Bizarrely enough that is how things work, simply parroting mummy, daddy and Bill then expecting people to "take your word on it", doesn't cut it, you state an argument and provide facts to support that argument. (this may be a confusing concept for you if you watch Fox "news" or are religious)
@thereinliestherib So far all you have produced are the two obesity figures, which are meaningless by themselves, as they could account for 4% or 40% of healthcare spending for all we know, which is rather critical to your claim, hence I've asked for those figures and smoking ones to give an overview of this alleged terrible America health and the cost relative to France, the fact you need this explaining, is hilarious.
@thereinliestherib I am afraid your continued avoidance to provide figures, just points to the conclusion that you don't provide them as the facts don't support your argument or you don't know them and are a fully paid up member of the tin foil hat brigade, either way don't expect your crackpot theory to be taken seriously until you provide something to support it.
@somename99 Cut the obfuscating snark and answer a simple question. What is the comparative health data of the US and other developed countries? What are the top most prevalent and costly diseases in America, and which of them does NOT have to do with stupid personal behavior?
I'll give you a hint: we spend 350 billion/yr on obesity treatments alone, excluding its many associated costs. Using 2 trillion as a baseline, that's about 1/6th of all spending on HC.
@thereinliestherib The only obfuscation is coming from you dear, you've made a claim and been asked to back it up with data, which you have consistently failed to do.
At least that is one more figure you've managed to drag out, it is still however meaningless without the figures for obesity related cost to the French healthcare system, plus those for smoking. Which of course you must have, else you could not possibly "know" the extra expense of US healthcare is due to alleged poorer health.
@somename99 What the F? Answer the question; you're only making yourself more of an ass by not doing so. This will be your fourth/fifth opportunity. I know the figures, and you're either to lazy, ignorant, or smug to find them in simple .0000000001 second internet searches. 350 Billion/yr--that sure sounded like a fact to me, ya moron!
@thereinliestherib If you know the figures then provide them, that is how it works, you make the claim the onus is on you back it up with data, not me. The only one looking as ass is you, the idiot who comes up with a crackpot theory about why US healthcare costs more, then can't back it up.
The 350 billion was a fact, but as you've been told, repeatedly it is meaningless without knowing how much the other healthcare systems such as the French spend in relation to your BS theory.
@thereinliestherib It certainly is entertaining having someone who can't back up their crackpot theories and laughably wants other people to produce the data for them, because they are the sort of imbecile that came up with a theory without checking the actual data first...
If you had the data, you would produce it, but you can't, you like your tinfoil hat theory are a joke.
@somename99 More potboiler rhetoric about "foil hats," and still no response to the very facts I've given you. You're embarrassing yourself. Still waiting...
@thereinliestherib The only one embarrassing themselves is you, you've failed to post the required facts despite being given numerous chances to do so, you haven't provided a single fact on the cost of obesity to the French healthcare (nor on smoking to either the US or French), hence your claim as it stands is unsubstantiated BS.
It is clear you don't have the facts, anyone that had them would of posted them to support their "theory", you've been caught out, get over it.
@somename99 Here we go again. Repeating the same demands I've already met. You can lead a liberal to the facts, but you can't make them understand. You're the public health equivalent of an evolution denialist--you deny that universal (and obvious) poor health (and thus pool risk) is the primary cause of HC costs in the US, at the same time that in practice, your party is forcing the low risk to pay more in order to cover the high risk. See a pattern emerging here?
@thereinliestherib Not merely an idiot, but also a liar I see, you were asked to provide 6 facts, the obesity & smoking levels and their respective costs to the US & French healthcare system, to substantiate your crackpot theory that US healthcare costs much more due to poorer health. You've only provided the obesity levels (both) and the cost of obesity to the US, which leaves us nothing to compare with and your BS theory still unsubstantiated.
@somename99 Actually, I've given you ample opportunity to prove me wrong, and you haven't done so--which is tacit admission you can't. I actually want you to lecture me on comparative health stats, because ultimately you'll see that you're wrong. You actually deny the cost significance of a 75% obesity/overweight rate, compared not just with France, but with ANY other Western country? And once again--what are the most prevalent and costly illnesses in America???
@thereinliestherib For those of us outside of your fantasy world it is not up to us to provide stats to backup your claim, that is your job.
Your notion that I should provide stats for your argument is ludicrous, it is analogous to someone coming on here claiming there are pink unicorns in the Everglades then expecting others to provide proof.
You claimed you had the stats, there is no reason for you not to post them, your failure to post the comparative stats is a tacit admission you can't.
@somename99 Except that you are the one refuting the claim; which requires evidence. Such evidence is abundantly available, but you just keep trying to play the victim and reverse the burden of proof that clearly lies on you. Name one country with a near 75% obesity/overweight rate. Name one country with as poor aggregate health stats as the US (including diet and exercise). And tell me what the leading most expensive diseases are in America. Come on now, last chance...
@thereinliestherib No dear, you present a theory, you back it up with data, that is how it works everywhere from writing your thesis at university to presenting a report at work, because without the data it is just a worthless unsubstantiated piece of empty rhetoric that no one is going to take seriously.
P.S - It is amusing how you continually avoid the smoking aspect, let me guess other countries smoke more which is kind of inconvenient to your pink unicorns theory...
@somename99 My God, you're an idiot. I'm actually showing how you can prove me wrong, and yet you just keep avoiding the point. Health coverage costs are directly proportional to population risk, which is a function of population health. Thus, show me the equivalence you assume: show me one country with health stats as poor as the US. I've been literally putting your best response in your lap, but you can't do anything with it... huh?
@thereinliestherib "Health coverage costs are directly proportional to population risk, which is a function of population health" this statement is nonsense. Look up the term 'population risk', you'll see it's a term for members of the general population with a certain genetic disorder...It's true having more unhealthy people means having more costs, but as i've explained to you several times now, it's not the main/only reason USA has the highest HC costs.
@DeathToTheDictators You truly are just as retarded as somename99, and yet there's millions more arithmetically challenged tools right behind you. The cost to insure any insurance pool is directly proportional to the population risk of the pool; these are actuarial terms, not medical terms, genius... So please, tell me what the top most prevalent and expensive illnesses are in the US. And then tell me that personal irresponsibility has nothing--nothing, we swear!--to do with HC costs.
@thereinliestherib No dear, the only idiot is you, I don' t have to prove you wrong, you haven't offered anything but empty rhetoric, despite being given numerous chances you've failed to provide comparative data to "prove" your pink unicorn theory, clearly there is no data to support it as it is a flawed, false premise, that you are unable to find data to prove your "theory" is laughable, I don't need to do anything.
@thereinliestherib I don't have to name another country, your stat does absolutely nothing to support your theory by itself.
Whilst you will spend most of your life at the unemployment office, you will need to finish school first, although that seems unlikely as you can't grasp basic concepts such as providing data to back up a theory.
Perhaps you should check the data exists before coming out with your next crackpot theory, it will be less embarrassing for you when someone calls your bluff.
@somename99 Of course. Because this country's near 75% obesity/overweight rate is a lie, and has no effect whatsoever on health care costs. Just as drunk drivers don't affect insurance pools, crooked bankers don't crash financial markets, and cows jump over moons.
@thereinliestherib You've had it explained to you more than once that to support your crackpot theory you need to provide comparative data for smoking (as the other major cause of preventive illness), the costs & obesity levels for more than just the US, you have despite laughably claiming you had the data, failed to provide half of those figures, the obesity level by itself is meaningless.
Your feeble attempts to distract from the fact you have no evidence for your theory don't fool anyone,
@somename99 Neat. Now answer a question, any one will do. Start with why US HC costs so much, not only by itself, but also disproportionately in comparison with other countries. Then explain how its not because of insurance pool risk, or the trillions we bleed every year treating such resopnsible conditions as lung cancer, emphysema, obesity, heart disease... You're a troll; post a response or go thy ways.
@thereinliestherib Not neat, purely basic statistics and how these things work from school to the workplace, present a theory and back it up with data, no one is going to take your word for it, your failure to do so just makes your theory look even more broken.
The only troll (or should I say world's worst shill) here is you dear, you've made about a zillion posts for over a year repeating the same crackpot theory without posting the required comparative data to back it up once.
@thereinliestherib Not neat, purely basic statistics and how these things work from school to the workplace, present a theory and back it up with data, no one is going to take your word for it, your failure to do so just makes your theory look even more broken.
The only troll (or should I say world's worst shill) here is you dear, you've made about a zillion posts for over a year repeating the same crackpot theory without posting the required comparative data to back it up once
@thereinliestherib "why US HC costs so much, not only by itself, but also disproportionately in comparison with other countries?" a few things wrong with this question:
Why does a Ferrari cost so much, not only by itself, but (uh ya actually just by itself) disproportionately (wait, i guess i made it clear the Ferrari cost is disproportionate with the expression"so much") in comparison with other (although i guess it was kinda implied we compare a Ferrari's cost with cars and not houses) cars?
@DeathToTheDictators Obfuscation. Answer the simplest question: why are US healthcare costs so high? How do you discount the role of poor American health, when by EXPONENTIAL MARGINS it is the most direct drain on HC resources? If you blame the private market, then why are medicaid, tricare, and other govt run programs in deeper red ink because of exploding pool risk, and thus, skyrocketing liabilities? I can show you the facts a thousand times and you'll just cry/run back to the DNC.
@DeathToTheDictators Obfuscation. Answer the simplest question: why are US healthcare costs so high? How do you discount the role of poor American health, when by EXPONENTIAL MARGINS it is the most direct drain on HC resources? If you blame the private market, then why are medicaid, tricare, and other govt run programs in deeper red ink because of exploding pool risk, and thus, skyrocketing liabilities? I can show you the facts a thousand times and you'll just cry/run back to the DNC.
"why are US healthcare costs so high?" as i've explained to you for the 4th time now, costs are not only high because of poor habits, but also lawsuits, fraud, profits,etc...how many more times am i gonna have to explain this to you? Lemme guess, 350 BILLION ON OBESITY!..but you keep ignoring the billions and billions that are added because the US system is private. Your insistence (350 BiILLION!) defies logic and reason.
@DeathToTheDictators You're facts are incomplete, and yep, obfuscating. Show me what proportion lawsuits, fraud, and admin account for compared with the national costs of obesity/weight problems, heart disease, and smoking related illness like asthma, emphysema, and lung cancer. I'll restrain my laughter until you complete the other required component for your argument to succeed...
@thereinliestherib "compared with the national costs of obesity/weight" why compare? the private system and fat people both cost Americans money, eliminate either one and costs go down. Here's a question for you, which is easier, simply changing a few laws/regualtions (and making care public) or getting millions of Americans to have better health habits?
private system: 350 billion (it's actually 187 but whatever) plus fraud-60 billion, plus Lawsuits-7 billion, plus pharma profits-36 billion, plus insurance profits-13 billion, plus 'care to the uninsured' 43 billion, etc...
public system: 350 (187) Billion.
Again i ask you, which is easier, having the president and congress make a REAL (not Obamacare) public care bill into law (that saves Americans a lot of money), or waiting for years until enough Americans are healthy?
@DeathToTheDictators And most of these same figures will exist under a public-private system (there will never be an exclusively public system, unless you believe govt can seize entire industries). Likewise your figure of $350 billion is less than what obesity costs the system each year, and that's just one of the several most prevalent (idiotic) personal conditions driving up our HC costs. You fail. If you're interested in the truth, look up the numbers for existing public HC systems...
@thereinliestherib "these same figures will exist under a public-private system" really? So how is there fraud in a system where the govt pays for anyone and everyone's care? How can we steal something when it's already being provided? Are you insane? Do you understand how logic works? FAIL.
"unless you believe govt can seize entire industries", there's no 'belief' involved. Under a single payer system the govt IS the only payer, they pay for and run the whole system.
@DeathToTheDictators Now show me the govt. data. Govt exposure to lawsuits is FAR greater than the private sector, which is what (democratic) trial lawyers build their careers on. The private sector regularly beats govt by a two-to-one ratio in terms of efficiency. A single-payer system is just a covert form of corporate welfare for HC companies, by creating a mandatory customer base that allocates its costs inversely with personal risk. Sad, but true...
@thereinliestherib What govt data? Lawsuits occur because of some medical error of somesort. The doctor or hospital (or their insurer) then has to pay. Do you have any stats proving patients under medicaid/care file more suits than those under private insurance? Please post.
"a covert form of corporate welfare for HC companies" WTF are you talking about? There are no 'HC companies' in a single payer system! Just the govt, and the hospitals and doctors get paid by the govt!
@thereinliestherib I believe i've already explained to you that 'having the worst health habits in the world' is not the only reason USA pays more for HC (and other nations have lots of fatties too). Once again, billions is spent on: lawsuits, insurance company profits, people who receive care but don't pay, fraud, etc...all extra costs that only the US private system is subject to.
@DeathToTheDictators And I never said it's the "only" reason--I said its the primary reason, by enormous margins. You honestly think corporate conspiracies and admin overheads take precedent over an astounding 75% obese/overweight rate, among other just as poor stats? Keep voting democrat, and pray the illusion doesn't fall on your head.
@thereinliestherib It's not about 'taking precedent', it's about keeping cost down. It's not like we have to choose between 'healthier habits' and a 'public system', we can have both. If/when people change their habits, it will lower costs...but until this happens, we still need to pay for their care. The private system makes this (paying for unhealthy Americans) more expensive (because of all these extra costs ie. profits) than it would if the system were public.
@DeathToTheDictators About keeping costs down? And do tell--where do the majority of those costs come from??? Your public/private dichotomy is completely false. Public systems (medicaid, medicare, and especially tricare) are in even deeper red ink than the private system exactly because they have to assume so much unsustainable US risk. Tricare's (military HC) most acute cost problem--no shit--is treating the hip problems of obese recruits. Public systems work great, huh?
@thereinliestherib "medicaid, medicare, and especially tricare) are in even deeper red ink than the private system" but these things are all part of the the US system! It's the system itself that's crap. If there wasn't medicaid, medicare etc...costs would be lower, but how many more people (currently 47 million or 14% aren't covered) wouldn't have any coverage? A true public system (not obamacare) would cost less and cover every citizen. It's how every other developed nation does it.
@DeathToTheDictators Those are examples of public run systems; which have a common problem of removing personal responsibility (risk accountability), and thus passively encourage poor health. I mention those examples because they contradict the public vs. private claim: if these systems have the same cost problems, how can we deny that those costs are due to anything but population risk (ie, poor national health)? How can you blame private markets variables when they aren't a factor??
@thereinliestherib "a common problem of removing personal responsibility" so are you saying people choose to have unhealthy habits because they know they will get affordable HC? 'I can afford to be fat, and that's why i am...nevermind the fact that i might still die, no matter how good my HC coverage is', is this the mentality you suggest is sweeping the world? And by your logic (personal responsibility) shouldn't Americans be the most healthy because their care is the most expensive? (cont)
@thereinliestherib (cont) "How can you blame private markets variables when they aren't a factor?" how are they not a factor? The system pays for 'unhealthy people', 'insurance profits', fraud, 'pharmaceutical company profits' etc...ALL factors in the cost of the the US HC system. How can you say they are not a factor? That's a complete fallacy.
@DeathToTheDictators A fallacy is an illogical statement, not one that has to do with determinations of fact. So please, give direct examples of acute problems with the private market, and how much they cost. And I will return to you the fact that obesity ALONE costs the HC system--even excluding broader public and economic costs--350 billion/yr, and skyrocketing. That's over 1/6th of overall spending on HC, using 2.3 trillion as a baseline. Give one example even approaching that figure.
@thereinliestherib public care means 350 billion (it's actually less than 200 bil, but this doesn't change my argument) for obesity, end of story. Private care means 350 bil for obesity, plus X bil for fraud, plus X bil for insurance profits, plus X bil for pharma profits, plus X bil for people who receive care but can't pay etc....as you can see, having the most unhealthy people in the world is bad, but having to pay for them through a private system is even worse.
@somename99 Why are you still posting? You browbeat "actual data" when the record shows pretty clearly that I'm the only one who's done so. Ergo, you're a troll.
@somename99 Where's the data I asked you for? I know the health stats for these countries because they are as easy as a 0.000000000001 second google search. I just want you to show them for me, because they contradict your point and reinforce my own: as with any insurance scheme, health care costs are directly proportional to population risk, ergo, national health.
@thereinliestherib The record shows you have posted nothing on the smoking data for the US either costs or percentage of smokers, same for France, plus nothing on the cost of obesity to the French system. Therefore the record shows that you have been unable to support your crackpot theory that US healthcare costs twice as much due to preventative illness.
It is clear the data doesn't support your joke of a theory else you would of posted it, there would be no reason not to.
@somename99 The record shows I asked you for those figures. I have them in .000000005 seconds, and you do too. I want you to post them because they make my point, and contradict yours. Tell me, what other country on the entire planet has a 75% obesity/overweight rate? Name one and you win. Come on now, its not that difficult to refute a counterpoint if you have data to support your claims...
@thereinliestherib The record shows you were told you were living in a fantasy world if you expect others to do your research and post data for your theory.
You've come up with a silly theory off the top of your head, when asked to back that theory up, you've found the data doesn't support it, so spouted feeble excuses like "I want you to post them because they make my point", rather than be a man.
Your point would be made if you posted this data, it's obvious why you've failed to do so.
@thereinliestherib The exceptionalism of anyone who grasps basic concepts like providing data to back up theories, amazes you, which would be anyone that has finished school.
I don't have to 'try' anything dear, you're the who the butted in, claiming your fantasy theory explained the cost difference, it's your own fault you've spent four weeks looking an ass, desperately trying to avoid the fact you don't have the evidence with pathetic excuses, because you can't find the comparative data.
@somename99 You: "I believe the sky is purple, and my claim is true unless someone can contradict it."
Me: "That's not their responsibility, it's yours."
You: "PURPLE! PURPLE! PURPLE!"
And I'm sure its irrelevant that the majority of our HC expenditures go toward conditions directly related to personal irresponsibility (smoking, obesity, etc). I think you're mad just because of the overbearing probability that you are obese/overweight...
@thereinliestherib No dear, the only mad one here is you who thinks simply because you present some bizarre theory that everyone else will simply take your empty unsubstantiated rhetoric as fact without the comparative data to back it up. Outside of your little fantasy world that is not ho it works.
That you still can't produce the data just says it all about your laughable theory, which like you is a joke.
@somename99 I haven't even read a isngle on of your posts since you refuse to offer your own data. Why do you keep posting? Why do you deny the direct, exponential costs of poor health in America, when its as clear as day? I'm just curious. People like you are the HC equivalent of evolution denialists. And since we all know you're "above" matters of fact, its just entertaining to watch you tie yourselves in knots around ideological assumptions.
@thereinliestherib Given you've repeated specific phrases in my posts, we'll add to your other lies, such as having data to support your BS theory.
As for evolution denialists, I am afraid you need to look in the mirror, you like them have come up with a joke of a theory and like them you expect people to "take your word on it" without providing sufficient data to support it.
I've already stated I agree obesity /smoking cause additional healthcare costs, they do that in all countries, your laughably claim was that this accounted for the US healthcare system costing twice as much as the French, as of yet you have not provided data to show that (because of course it doesn't exist), so we are just left with your empty rhetoric of a theory, you'd fit right in with the intelligent design nutters they think they don't need to provide proof either
@somename99 Metaphorical? You haven't contradicted or responded to a single factual claim I've made, which is why you're doing this regressing BS. No right wing politico has made the point that abyssmal national health is the real reason our HC costs are so high, and so disproportional to other nations. So tell me, what are the top most prevalent and expensive ailments in America? Which are NOT because of personal choice? What country has worse health rates than the US? Name ONE.
@somename99 The US almost defaulted on their debt; Moody's just lowered our bond rating and all this without even factoring in the massive expense that Socialized Healthcare places on our us (we're not France; we have 308Million People in this country!). And forget any more advancement in Med. Innovation; America’s all the World has left. France hands out free procedures/drugs that we invent. Any vestige of talent in the instutry is on the first plane to the US (shit, my doctor’s French)!
@somename99 And you see to have no regard for exactly what Free Market Capitalism has done for the World in its short experimentive history. France? Last I checked my grandfather’s brother was still buried at Normandy. After WWI France mocked us for our continued investment into Military Technology…they got the point when Hitler put a Nazi flag on the Eiffel Tower. As in military as in medicine; these people are completely dependent on the US for dealing with the big issues
@somename99 (like fighting totalitarian regimes and Inventing/advancing treatments/cures). Sitting back and treating curable aliments is easy; anyone can do that…but how many Cancer/AIDs patients advocate your ‘humanitarian’ efforts? In any event; the US’s success has always hailed from ‘individual freedom/responsibility?’ This constant push for pooling (redistributing) resources for the greater good is sustainable nowhere in histroy; except the wanting space between your Liberal ears.
@somename99 "The US system is an inefficient rip off, full of waste, do you know what percentage of the Australian healthcare budget goes on admin - 3%, Singapore - 2.9%, UK - 4.6%, the US 7.6%."
The flaw in your argument is that these stats are symmetrical with each country's national health ratings, respectively. Systemic causes have very little to do with our costs, which arise mostly out of, among other things, the fact that the US is 75% obese/overweight.
the man who made this video is a moron. I loved the line about how the public airplane promises to get everyone to "healthyville" "Just like the Private Airplane". The whole debate assumes that private healthcare is delivering. Well, it is; it is delivering a statistically 3rd world service: the rich get great treatment, the insured get so-so treatment and the rest get nothing. Like Egypt. Recent research publised in Time shows the US ranked no 31 in maternity/infant care. Shameful
@CobinRain And once again, you're ignoring that skyrocketing pool risk due to insanely poor national health is the primary reason our HC stinks. All people like you support is increasing liability for irresponsible people--which makes as much sense as requiring young, healthy, fleeced students to pay unrepresentative coverage rates just so Johnny Marlboro can get a heart bypass because he won't quit smoking. How is that supposed to resolve the root HC problem of personal irresponsibility?
@haleyd12345 Private insurance operates on the basis that most customers will not make a claim. That many ill people will not be allowed to insure. That claims will always in someway have limits to the liability. With private insurance you end up paying more in than what you get out. Don't make a claim? Your money ends up ether paying for the insured sick or paying the very high administration, pay bonuses or company profits. Please see “the U.S. Healthcare system in international Context”
@haleyd12345 I won't continue to get into a debate on ideology on healthcare. I believe, as does the vast majority of the world, that healthcare is a right. You don't. So be it. Your tune might change when you are older. But if you are going to use false stats about our system to prop up your argument, you will fail everytime.
@MadHabber93 If health care is a right, then aren't 74% this country's citizens criminals for being fat? If someone possesses a specific right, isn't it against the law to infringe upon that persons ability to claim that right? So why is it okay for the unhealthy and irresponsible to prevent the healthy from buying insurance according to their personal risk level???
@thereinliestherib obesity rate in US 31% vs UK-Australia 23%, GDP% dedicated to healthcare US-15.8 UK-9.7 Aus-8.9...are you suggesting the 8% obesity gap accounts for the approx 150% more cost for care? There are many reasons private care costs more: lawsuits, people who choose not to pay for insurance, people who can't afford insurance, insurance profits, etc...non of this occurs under a universal system. it's not as simple as 'America just has more fat people'. feel free to look it all up.
@TheRandiniarolla You'll notice that obesity could easily account for a substantial part of the difference; and since obesity is only ONE of many indicators of poor health, the aggregated stats fall in perfect symmetry with the national differences. It's a basic rule of insurance markets that the cost-to-cover for any population is directly proportional to risk--in this case, national health. You disagree with 1) basic market principle 2) the leading most costly illnesses in America.
@TheRandiniarolla You're also completely ignoring the fact that govt run insurers in are in even deeper red ink than private markets, precisely because of insane US pool risk. In fact, the most acute problem military Tricare faces are the hip injuries of overweight recruits, recruits who then draw benefits for the rest of their lives without even serving. How can private market factors be blamed for differential national HC costs when the private market is no factor??? Derrr....
@thereinliestherib i agree poor health habits are a major burden on care costs, but America is not alone in this problem, and show me some stats proving America's higher rate of poor health habits are exactly proportionate to the higher costs America pays compared to the rest of the world for care. The stats i've seen say differently.
"govt run insurers in are in even deeper red ink than private markets" only in America, it's the only 1st world care system where private is involved
@TheRandiniarolla You're ignoring the data I gave you. Existing govt run insurers are in the tank--yet you're still trying to blame the evil "private market" when it isn't even a factor. If you deny that a 75% obesity/overweight rate has a direct, proportional effect on HC markets, then you're a friggin moron. Across the board, the cost to insure any population is directly proportional to risk (health), which is exactly why America has such disproportionally costly outcomes--we're HUUUUGE.
@thereinliestherib i'm not denying "govt run insurers are in the tank", i said America is the only nation where this can happen because healtcare is mostly run as a 'business' and not as an 'essential service to the people'. Did you know health insurance executives earn double digit million$ salaries and bonuses? Why not dedicate this money to care? This is the way every other developed nation does it, and so should America. Don't tell me "private market it isn't even a factor"when it clearly is
@TheRandiniarolla Damn--you're an absolute moron. I'll explain this again. How can you blame private market factors, when govt-run insurers are facing the same problem of unsustainable pool risk??? I got news pally, people make $money$ because it is the engine of the economy, which then grants the ability of postmodern trolls like yourself to select the truth you wish to believe.
@thereinliestherib the fact remains private care involves additiional costs universal doesn't (as i've already explained) such as lawsuits, insurance profits, etc...this costs the American system billions, which means higher premiums for the consumer. These are costs every other developed country doesn't have to deal with because their care systems aren't priivate. America would have lower unsustainable pool risk if the system were truly universal, not a disfunctional hybrid
@TheRandiniarolla Sorry dude, no other developed country in the world has as poor health, and thus as high pool risk, as the US; and individual health has NOTHING to do with systemic factors. If this were a healthy country, I'd gladly support universal healthcare--it ain't. And if you're honestly implying that govt run HC institutions are more efficient or less exposed to liability/discrimination claims, well there's about several billion dollars and thousands of counterexamples to your claim.
@thereinliestherib you're ignoring the fact care costs are higher than they need to be, regardless of the fact that Americans have the poorest health in the world. America needs to pay for care, whether it's the most fit nation or the slobiest, and the private system is more costly...the facts and numbers support this, end of argument.
"less exposed to liability/discrimination claims" if i'm not mistaken, in nations like Canada, universal health providers are legaly liable to a max of $100,000.
@TheRandiniarolla "regardless of the fact that Americans have the poorest health in the world." Regardless? It's pretty hard to disregard a 75% obesity/overweight rate and that the most expensive ailments in this country result from irresponsibility. Pretty hard to disregard that the restructuring of healthcare has been only to increase costs among lower risk individuals to offset the exploding liabilities of the obese and unhealthy. Pretty damn hard to disregard reality ya ignorant rube.
@thereinliestherib look here "ignorant rube", the fact is private costs more than universal, THAT'S the reality. I mean are you seriously arguing it's better for American healthcare consumers if they pay more? This is completely illogical. Again, whether it's the fattest nation or the fittest, universal care costs American care consumers less than private care. Your argument makes no sense.
@TheRandiniarolla Hey guy, by ignoring my points you're only validating them. Why are non-private govt insurers in the tank, and even moreso than private insurers? Answer the question, or be gone. And if you honestly believe the absurd notion that population health (risk) has no effect on HC markets, you're completely deluded.
@thereinliestherib HC is cheaper when funded through tax, not an 'insurance' system. The Obama bill and the whole system for the last 100 years has been ineffective and inefficient. "believe that population health (risk) has no effect on HC markets" did i say that? i believe my exact words were "i agree poor health habits are a major contributer to care costs". Everyone knows Americans are the fattest, this doesn't change the fact private systems cost more because of lawsuits, profits etc...
@TheRandiniarolla So in other words, some sort of baseless corporate shadow conspiracy is the cause of disproportional national health costs; not a 75% obesity/overweight rate, not a 20-25% smoking rate, not ubiquitous national drug/alcohol abuse, not the fact that all of the most expensive and common ailments draining HC resources are all related to poor individual health and irresponsibility, not the 350 billion we spend every year on obesity alone, not reality...
@thereinliestherib "baseless corporate shadow conspiracy" actually it's no big secret. Google 'ammount USA spends on medical lawsuits per year', 'health insrance CEO salaries and bonuses', 'ammount of Americans who choose not to pay/ can't afford health insurance' etc....all of these ammount to raising the cost of private care by billions and billions.
And the US isn't the ONLY developed nation with poor health habit epidemics, yet you're throwing around that argument like it is.
@TheRandiniarolla Sorry pal, but you're completely ignoring the stats. No other country on the planet has as abyssmal individual health stats as the US. And all the phenomena you mentioned would abide just as much under a public system. Public govt insurers have already suffered substantial losses because of lawsuits, specifically because the govt is far more exposed to liability than private insurers. Try again, this time with facts.
@thereinliestherib "abide just as much under a public system" i'm sorry but that simply isn't true, look it up. Lawsuits are under a cap in universal systems, and there are NO profits, and everyone pays taxes to fund care (there are no insurance pools).
"govt insurers have suffered substantial losses from lawsuits", "more exposed to liability than private insurers" liabilty and lawsuits are only a major care cost factor in the US system! Again, every other nation has a cap ($100,000 in Canada).
@TheRandiniarolla Obviously facts are too much to ask from someone who flatly refuses to depart from ideology and left wing propaganda. Once again, you completely deny that the distinction between public and private markets is irrelevant compared with broader factors, such as poor national health. Tell me, what is the foremost determinant of cost for any insurance market, whether public or private?
@thereinliestherib "ideology and left wing propaganda" whatever sir i've given you easily verifiable hard facts, there's no ideoligy involved.
"the distinction between public and private markets is irrelevant compared with broader factors" so are billions and billions of $ "irrelevant"?
"foremost determinant of cost for any insurance market" Seriously!? how many times do i need to point out the US is the only developed nation with a health 'insurance' system? Health 'insurance' doesn't work!
Of course the critically ill are welcomed with open arms by the "private airplane" right?
SammyClammy 1 week ago
America have given Europe alot. ALOT! But no one system is perfect. I dont see Scandinavia as socialistic area. Its just that America is soooo afraid of the government getting involved, its redicilous.
All countries in Europe take care of their sick.
All major world powers take care of their sick.
All but one... The country I adored in the 80´s. USA.
Im not flaming the US. I WANT the US to succeed. Whats good for the US is good for Europe.
Learn from our mistakes, US. And take care of your sick.
funkkyzenzei 4 weeks ago in playlist Independence Institute's Health Care Series
we only have two options, get on board with the socialism obamacare or get healthcare through insurance companies that will deny more claims so they will make more money. Pick your poison
kingMe20x 3 months ago
Fail
cateattingmonster0 3 months ago
"thereinliestherib" is correct when he says that individual weakness, self harm and irresponsibly:-To much bad eating, to little exercise, smoking ,alcohol and drug abuse not to mention to many children being born into families that are not able to finically support them must add a vast amount to the costs of running a Nations health and welfare systems. The question to be asked, is it right in a civilised society that this cost is found out of the pockets of the sensible and mature? Discuss.
davijeph 4 months ago
@davijeph from a moral point, is it fair to screw over anyone who truly needs care to make sure the people who have unhealthy habits don't get a 'free ride'? Also not everyone who is fat is fat because of poor habits...there's genetics, and poverty can play a big role in this as well.
From a financial point it's a no brainer. The public system is 1/3 less expensive for everyone, and in the private system many people who actually have good health habits can't afford coverage.
DeathToTheDictators 4 months ago
@DeathToTheDictators I agree that the various types of UHC's most advanced countries use represent a far more cost effective and morally superior health care than that used presently in the US. But the point raised by "thereinliestherib" is valid the cost to those UHC's systems by those who choose not take reasonable care for their own health is very great. However, there are ways to alleviate that cost namely the heavily taxing of those items that contribute to that abuse smoking, alcohol etc.
davijeph 4 months ago
@davijeph there's no doubt the irresponsible people are a major cost to HC, but therib's argument was that there shouldn't be a public care system because of the irresponsible people. The reality is, a public system makes paying for HC cheaper...no matter if you have 'irresponsible people' we all have to pay for, or every citizen is healthy..
DeathToTheDictators 4 months ago
@DeathToTheDictators We both agree in effect we are saying any society that calls itself civilised must allow any individual no matter what that individuals circumstances access to whatever healthcare is available . In the US an insane mass child murderer serving a life time incarceration in some mental institution will automatically have his health care needs dealt with without reference to cost when some perfectly decent person on a low income will not. Got to be wrong.
davijeph 4 months ago
@davijeph you said it, my friend.
DeathToTheDictators 4 months ago
"thereinliestherib" and I have been discussing the pro's and con's of UHC's versus the US private insurance system. Agreeing (I think) that UHC's are a good idea but from "thereinliestherib" point of view only if those who wiling choose too abuse their own bodies are made too take more responsibility for their behaviour (hope I got that right "thereinliestherib". If so you might find the article on obesity too be found on the BBC homepage interesting ".bbc.co.uk/news/health". (regards).
davijeph 5 months ago
Comment removed
davijeph 5 months ago
New from the BBC "The rising rates of diabetes mean the condition now accounts for nearly a 10th of the annual NHS drugs bill in England, official figures show. Some £725m was spent on diabetes drug in 2010-11 - 8.4% of the total bill." The report explains the bulk of this cost is spent on type2 diabetes (associated with poor life style). Many items that are associated with type2 diabetes sweets (candy), alcohol, smoking carry high taxes in part to help pay for the damage they do.
davijeph 5 months ago
@mdstalla i wish everyone had common sense like you. libs have absolutely no knowledge of history
wassupdoc319 5 months ago
@wassupdoc319 Thank you. It’s good to see there’s another ‘adult’ in the room.
mdstalla 5 months ago
Nice and like this video. Now i get more information and feel happy.
-----Informatics Outsourcing (Outsource Health care research company)----------
dineshseosharp 6 months ago
Even if imperfect people and who is not, do harmful things to themselves, drink, smoke, eat to much, take drugs, do dangerous sports, drive unsafely don't exercise enough and in doing so harm to themselves and maybe others they are still part of our societies. Even if they manage to contribute nothing they are still part of us and we are part of them. Not to help them when in need might be economically justifiable but beware of the society that does not help it needs a heart not just a head.
davijeph 6 months ago
@davijeph Wuddup Davijeph! You're failing to address that these "innocent" irresponsibly unhealthy masses (who cut across all social and economic lines) have failed in their duty toward society to act responsibly. It is because of that failure that many people cannot afford proper care, placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of the unhealthy and unwilling. So let's make a fat/cigarette tax already, and be done with it.
thereinliestherib 6 months ago
@thereinliestherib Up to a point you are right, I don't condone irresponsible behaviour and if you remember some time ago I pointed out that heavy taxes are placed on things like alcohol and tobacco in the UK to help offset the medical costs those products produce. But even if that did not happen the question must be asked not how irresponsible are they but what kind of people are we? Could you really leave say a smoker to die in agony with untreated lung cancer just because he smoked?
davijeph 6 months ago
@davijeph You didn't point out those taxes; I did, and you disagreed until I provided you with further data. The cost of providing a smoker with exorbitantly expensive healthcare treatments could be cost the necessary care for ten others who did not engage in such stupid behavior. Unhealthy people assume the risk of their actions, and the extraordinary public costs of those actions deprive others of critical resources of which they have far greater need.
thereinliestherib 6 months ago
@thereinliestherib Sorry, but when it came too explaining the taxes placed on tobacco and alcohol in the UK I took some time in explaining them to you which you seem to approve of. I take it that you really would allow people to live and die in agony just because you disapprove of some aspect of there life style. That is of matter for you and your own values and conscience hopefully the bulk of US citizenry (or even Uganda) manage too maintain a heart and soul as well as a brain.
davijeph 6 months ago
@davijeph Nope, I was the one who brought up taxes, a point with which you initially disagreed. You're still skirting the inconsistency in your views of social responsibility--if I have a responsibility toward someone else's costs, then that person is responsible for not being an undue burden on others ability to claim that same privilige. But last we left off, we half agreed--I'd support universal HC here ONLY if funded through taxes on the unhealthy goods and services driving up costs.
thereinliestherib 6 months ago
@thereinliestherib "I'd support universal HC here ONLY if funded through taxes on the unhealthy goods and services driving up costs." Then we agree I hope you are working to achieve that. In the mean time I take it that you really would allow people to live and die in agony just because you disapprove of some aspect of there life style? A simple yes or no will do . Regards
davijeph 6 months ago
@davijeph Damn right we agree, and I am working on it. But you still haven't addressed the inconsistency in your view that one person is responsible for another person's irresponsibility--that's the definition of bad faith, because it only preserves the irresponsibility of that person, at the cost of others who truly need those resources through no fault of their own. Smokers and fat people knowingly assume the risks of their behavior; just as drunk drivers, murderers, drug dealers... etc.
thereinliestherib 6 months ago
@thereinliestherib I don't see that my views are inconsistent. It is quite consistent to say that wherever possible things that can cause illness tobacco, alcohol, high sugar or fat content should have a health tax imposed, is not incompatible with saying if you are ill because of life style choices you still have the right to medical care. The reason why people must be treated regardless of life style or circumstances is simple, common humanity and decency.
davijeph 6 months ago
@thereinliestherib I assume you disagree but how and who in a civilised society makes the decision that says because this drug ,smoking ,alcohol addict can no longer afford treatment for his illness he should be left to die in agony. Unlike say social welfare payments healthcare should not be a case of taking resources away from the "deserving" and giving it to the "undeserving" but ensuring all citizens get the care they need irrespective of financial or other circumstances.
davijeph 6 months ago
@davijeph You either make such difficult choices before they are necessary, or you wait until public resources are all gone, and the decision is made for everyone, regardless (which is where we're already at in the states). That's the economic law of finitude. If everyone acted so irresponsibly, then no one would receive any care at all. I grew up dirt poor and lost siblings to drugs and poor health--and I will say without a doubt, poor health is a personal choice.
thereinliestherib 6 months ago
@thereinliestherib Ultimately it is not a question of what worth are those that are sick but what worth are we if we choose not to help.
davijeph 6 months ago
@davijeph You're still ignoring the distinction I'm pointing out. You cannot help those who refuse to help themselves and who knowingly engage in behavior that entails enormous costs for others. The opportunity cost of spending so wastefully is investing in causes of far greater utility and need, such as education. Nevermind--we agree that a truly progressive HC system would be based on taxes on the unhealthy behaviors with the greatest adverse effect on cost, and I appreciate that.
thereinliestherib 6 months ago
@thereinliestherib I am not ignoring it at all. I am simply saying in the final analysis any society that calls itself civilised must try and help everyone within in that society. You cannot but help anyone who is ill irrespective of how they acquired their illness. True any sane individual must be held responsible for there actions if you harm another person or there property while drunk or on drugs then punishment should follow but drug user or not we cannot but try and treat there illness.
davijeph 6 months ago
@davijeph We agree that taxes on unhealthy goods and services are necessary to offset the overwhelming costs of personal irresponsibility, and that's enough for me. In regards to that, I think we're ignoring that we can agree more than disagree. If you lived in the US and could see just how much insanely poor health plagues this country (and how we just culturally ignore it) I think your views would shift a bit toward the responsibility end versus the entitlement end of the spectrum.
thereinliestherib 6 months ago
@thereinliestherib1/3 If I can make one last point about what you have just written regarding your last sentence. From what I understand from my own family and reading about healthcare in the UK before the advent of the NHS in 1947 when most of the slum dwelling poor would have little or nothing in the way of health insurance. My father a miner and breadwinner contributing to an insurance club called "the lump" it looked his after basic healthcare.
davijeph 6 months ago
@thereinliestherib 2/3The rest of the family surviving on very basic charity when things went wrong leading to very high deaths rates and short life expectancy among the very poor. After WWII even though the UK was financially destroyed the NHS came into being at the demand of the working class who where fed up being treated like shit by their supposed betters.
davijeph 6 months ago
@thereinliestherib 3/3The result? After 60+years of UHC no sane person rich or poor would think about getting rid of the NHS even with its faults. From what I have learnt about the US health system at its best must be great at its worse it is a National disgrace. In terms of having a discussion we are doing OK no insults and a certain respect and understanding for the other sides point of view. If you wish to end here I'm happy with that. Regards
davijeph 6 months ago
@davijeph We have no disagreement. It's quite eloquent actually, because however we might disagree on ethics, if a universal system were funded substantially through taxes on the behaviors most driving up costs, then there's equity in the system. It would basically make our disagreements irrelevant. Such a system would be A-okay with me.
thereinliestherib 6 months ago
Complete bullshit, but let's assume that your government would kick terminally ill (or those who appeared to be) people off due to a lack of funds.
How is that worse that greedy capitalistic health care companies kicking people off for "preexisting conditions"?
How is death by getting kicked off by the government due to a lack of funds any worse than death by insurance company procrastination?
SovMotherland 7 months ago
Enjoy the road you drove on to get to where you made this propaganda?
Thought so? The military? Thought so. You rparents Social Security?
These were made possible by the same government you lambaste. Get a grip.
JohnMan59 7 months ago
Conservative: “I really hate having my hard-earned money taken from me to pay taxes that go to the poor and unemployed. I could have used that money to buy a brand new car!” Liberal: “Typical greedy-Conservative! No Compassion! Sorry, you’re going to have to forego this year’s brand new car to do something good for once, like help the needy.” Unemployed Assembly Worker: “I wish people would just start buying new cars so I could get of these welfare checks and get my old job back!"
mdstalla 8 months ago 3
@mdstalla tht was funny i liked tht
MegaNinja16 6 months ago
@MegaNinja16 That, my dear Girl; is why Liberalism doesn't reduce poverty for some; it guarantees it for all (including Ninjas).
mdstalla 6 months ago
@mdstalla wait so liberalism makes people poor O.o im a guy btw hahaha
MegaNinja16 6 months ago
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somename99 5 months ago
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somename99 5 months ago
@mdstalla Or alternatively and rather more on topic, how about adopting something similar to the French system, get overall better healthcare results for less than half the cost, a healthier more productive workforce and then the money switching from the current inefficient overpriced US healthcare system to a French type system can be spent on new cars or anything else.
somename99 5 months ago
@somename99 Europe’s on the verge of collapse-- they’re rioting in the streets because their governments (operating at a 90% tax burden) are folding like dominos precisely because they can’t afford the pipedream of ‘better care at half the cost (if it sounds too good to be true….).’ Like everything else Liberal; Europe’s cradle to grave entitlement programs are the most wonderful/generous programs that ever garneted despotism and poverty. And assholes like you want that here? Unbelievable!
mdstalla 5 months ago
@mdstalla Their healthcare is less of a burden than the US system, certain countries are in trouble - Greece, Portugal, Ireland, etc that borrowed / spent beyond their means because they borrowed on the Euro at rates which were based off responsibly run economies like Germany, Sweden, etc. Every other developed nation has universal healthcare from Australia to Japan, the US is the exception and guess what it costs US citizens twice as much for a system that's not even rated top.
somename99 5 months ago
@somename99 Contrary to brilliant minds such as Michal Moore; Frances med. Program is $14B in debt and sharply rising—huge for a country 1/5 the size of the US. No, France is prepped for the same fate as her Socialist neighbors. Worse, no one is entering the medial industry in Europe; any new innovations, drugs or treatments are coming from abroad precisely because doctors make the equivalent of High school teachers in the US. Free treatment means little to someone with an incurable disease.
mdstalla 5 months ago
@mdstalla Hilarious, $14b is nothing in terms of healthcare spending, the US spends over $2 trillion yearly, France could up the contributions a bit, remove that debt and still leave the French citizen spending about half what every US citizen pays, whilst receiving a higher rated level of healthcare.
The US system is an inefficient rip off, full of waste, do you know what percentage of the Australian healthcare budget goes on admin - 3%, Singapore - 2.9%, UK - 4.6%, the US 7.6%.
cont >>>
somename99 5 months ago
@mdstalla You seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder about "socialism", firstly every country developed country other than the US has universal healthcare, even Singapore, are they socialist? Secondly find someone to teach you what socialism is, becuase it certainly isn't Europe, a key tennent of socialism is state or collective ownership, most European countries have done the complete opposite and privitised most of their old state run industries.
cont >>>
somename99 5 months ago
@mdstalla In some cases industries that are still state owned in the US like the railway or postal service.
somename99 5 months ago
@somename99"firstly every country developed country other than the US has universal healthcare" That's such crap, and of course, such propaganda. I dare you to name any other country in the entire freaking world with as poor health, and thus as high pool risk, as the US. Name one. 1. 1. 11111... There is no way a socialized system would/could do anything but exacerbate America's complete disregard for personal health.
thereinliestherib 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib Wow so much unsubstantiated hyperbole in one post, way to go shill.
somename99 5 months ago
@somename99 "unsubstantiated hyperbole," translation= "I can't respond with facts, so I'll just throw out lefty boilerplate and ignore the truth of a claim."
Name 1 country. Go for it. Prove me wrong. I am giving you the opportunity. Then tell me what the most prevalent and costly ailments are in America. The goal is completely open, my team is off the field, and you've got unlimited penalty kicks. Can't wait to see if you take it.
thereinliestherib 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib You haven't provided any facts, hence it is hyperbole, you have provided zilch to backup your claims that: 1 - The US has significantly poorer health than the rest of the developed world, 2) What percentage of total US healthcare spending is attributable to the "poor health".
I assume you must have figures for this, so lets see them, to keep it simple provide the figures for obesity & smoking in France / US and the percentage of health spending these account for.
somename99 5 months ago
@somename99 HA! Keep evadin' pal! Show me one other country in the world with a near 75% obesity/overweight rate. Name one country with comparable rates for ZERO exercise, hours in front of a tv, smoking, or drug abuse. Come on dude--I've given you the facts and you're throwing the reins under the carriage in a futile attempt to prevent declaring or defending your claims. High pool risk in the US, directly due to poor national health, is the primary reason our HC is so insanely expensive.
thereinliestherib 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib You're the one making the claim, not me, backup your hyperbole with facts, you do understand what facts are right? You can comprehend that spouting the obesity rate of the US is meaningless without comparison? That it is meaningless without knowing what percentage of cost are attributable to it, so come on , show us all the obesity / smoking rates for France / US and what fraction of healthcare cost are down to them.
somename99 5 months ago
@somename99 Yes, and I asked you to provide those comparative stats yourself, because you would have had to admit that the rest of the world is substantially lower in terms of poor health rates, and thus far lower in terms of pool risk/cost. And your utter failure to do so shows your deceit. France: 42%overweight/11%obese. UK: 60%/22% Sweden: 9% obesity. You're a deluded lost-cause if you deny the direct causal relationship between national health and subsequent HC costs.
thereinliestherib 5 months ago
@somename99 Now, show me your knowledge of HC costs and tell me what the most prevalent and costly diseases are in the US, and whether or not their causes are personal or environmental/congenital. You're metaphorically arguing that drunk/drugged driving wouldn't effect insurance costs, in a hypothetical situation where those costs skyrocketed and over 75% of drivers were impaired in some way. This will be hilarious. And educational.
thereinliestherib 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib In regard to your metaphorical nonsense, learn to read, I am quite sure drink / drugs / obesity, etc do effect healthcare costs (I've never stated differently), but despite being repeatedly asked, you have provided no figures to show what percentage of healthcare costs it accounts for or the difference with France. Hence your claims as they stand are laughable.
continued >>>
somename99 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib So far you've given one figure for US obesity and after two attempts you have provided a figure for France, so now give as the smoking figures and the percentage of healthcare costs attributable to those factors.
Really it helps if you do the research before coming to an opinion, rather than simply repeating what mummy, daddy & Bill O'Reilly spout without thinking, it makes you look less of an idiot when someone asks you to back up your claim.
somename99 5 months ago
@somename99 Shut up and respond to the argument.
thereinliestherib 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib I have responded to your "argument", in the only logical way, I am doubtful of your claim, thus I've asked you to provide facts to support your "argument". Bizarrely enough that is how things work, simply parroting mummy, daddy and Bill then expecting people to "take your word on it", doesn't cut it, you state an argument and provide facts to support that argument. (this may be a confusing concept for you if you watch Fox "news" or are religious)
continued >>>
somename99 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib So far all you have produced are the two obesity figures, which are meaningless by themselves, as they could account for 4% or 40% of healthcare spending for all we know, which is rather critical to your claim, hence I've asked for those figures and smoking ones to give an overview of this alleged terrible America health and the cost relative to France, the fact you need this explaining, is hilarious.
continued >>>>
somename99 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib I am afraid your continued avoidance to provide figures, just points to the conclusion that you don't provide them as the facts don't support your argument or you don't know them and are a fully paid up member of the tin foil hat brigade, either way don't expect your crackpot theory to be taken seriously until you provide something to support it.
somename99 5 months ago
@somename99 Cut the obfuscating snark and answer a simple question. What is the comparative health data of the US and other developed countries? What are the top most prevalent and costly diseases in America, and which of them does NOT have to do with stupid personal behavior?
I'll give you a hint: we spend 350 billion/yr on obesity treatments alone, excluding its many associated costs. Using 2 trillion as a baseline, that's about 1/6th of all spending on HC.
thereinliestherib 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib The only obfuscation is coming from you dear, you've made a claim and been asked to back it up with data, which you have consistently failed to do.
At least that is one more figure you've managed to drag out, it is still however meaningless without the figures for obesity related cost to the French healthcare system, plus those for smoking. Which of course you must have, else you could not possibly "know" the extra expense of US healthcare is due to alleged poorer health.
somename99 5 months ago
@somename99 What the F? Answer the question; you're only making yourself more of an ass by not doing so. This will be your fourth/fifth opportunity. I know the figures, and you're either to lazy, ignorant, or smug to find them in simple .0000000001 second internet searches. 350 Billion/yr--that sure sounded like a fact to me, ya moron!
thereinliestherib 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib If you know the figures then provide them, that is how it works, you make the claim the onus is on you back it up with data, not me. The only one looking as ass is you, the idiot who comes up with a crackpot theory about why US healthcare costs more, then can't back it up.
The 350 billion was a fact, but as you've been told, repeatedly it is meaningless without knowing how much the other healthcare systems such as the French spend in relation to your BS theory.
somename99 5 months ago
@somename99 Still waiting. Keep talking, though--it just makes this more entertaining.
thereinliestherib 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib It certainly is entertaining having someone who can't back up their crackpot theories and laughably wants other people to produce the data for them, because they are the sort of imbecile that came up with a theory without checking the actual data first...
If you had the data, you would produce it, but you can't, you like your tinfoil hat theory are a joke.
somename99 5 months ago
@somename99 More potboiler rhetoric about "foil hats," and still no response to the very facts I've given you. You're embarrassing yourself. Still waiting...
thereinliestherib 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib The only one embarrassing themselves is you, you've failed to post the required facts despite being given numerous chances to do so, you haven't provided a single fact on the cost of obesity to the French healthcare (nor on smoking to either the US or French), hence your claim as it stands is unsubstantiated BS.
It is clear you don't have the facts, anyone that had them would of posted them to support their "theory", you've been caught out, get over it.
somename99 5 months ago
@somename99 Here we go again. Repeating the same demands I've already met. You can lead a liberal to the facts, but you can't make them understand. You're the public health equivalent of an evolution denialist--you deny that universal (and obvious) poor health (and thus pool risk) is the primary cause of HC costs in the US, at the same time that in practice, your party is forcing the low risk to pay more in order to cover the high risk. See a pattern emerging here?
thereinliestherib 5 months ago
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somename99 5 months ago
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somename99 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib Not merely an idiot, but also a liar I see, you were asked to provide 6 facts, the obesity & smoking levels and their respective costs to the US & French healthcare system, to substantiate your crackpot theory that US healthcare costs much more due to poorer health. You've only provided the obesity levels (both) and the cost of obesity to the US, which leaves us nothing to compare with and your BS theory still unsubstantiated.
Which part of that is confusing your tiny brain?
somename99 5 months ago
@somename99 Actually, I've given you ample opportunity to prove me wrong, and you haven't done so--which is tacit admission you can't. I actually want you to lecture me on comparative health stats, because ultimately you'll see that you're wrong. You actually deny the cost significance of a 75% obesity/overweight rate, compared not just with France, but with ANY other Western country? And once again--what are the most prevalent and costly illnesses in America???
thereinliestherib 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib For those of us outside of your fantasy world it is not up to us to provide stats to backup your claim, that is your job.
Your notion that I should provide stats for your argument is ludicrous, it is analogous to someone coming on here claiming there are pink unicorns in the Everglades then expecting others to provide proof.
You claimed you had the stats, there is no reason for you not to post them, your failure to post the comparative stats is a tacit admission you can't.
somename99 5 months ago
@somename99 Except that you are the one refuting the claim; which requires evidence. Such evidence is abundantly available, but you just keep trying to play the victim and reverse the burden of proof that clearly lies on you. Name one country with a near 75% obesity/overweight rate. Name one country with as poor aggregate health stats as the US (including diet and exercise). And tell me what the leading most expensive diseases are in America. Come on now, last chance...
thereinliestherib 5 months ago
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somename99 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib No dear, you present a theory, you back it up with data, that is how it works everywhere from writing your thesis at university to presenting a report at work, because without the data it is just a worthless unsubstantiated piece of empty rhetoric that no one is going to take seriously.
P.S - It is amusing how you continually avoid the smoking aspect, let me guess other countries smoke more which is kind of inconvenient to your pink unicorns theory...
somename99 5 months ago
@somename99 My God, you're an idiot. I'm actually showing how you can prove me wrong, and yet you just keep avoiding the point. Health coverage costs are directly proportional to population risk, which is a function of population health. Thus, show me the equivalence you assume: show me one country with health stats as poor as the US. I've been literally putting your best response in your lap, but you can't do anything with it... huh?
thereinliestherib 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib "Health coverage costs are directly proportional to population risk, which is a function of population health" this statement is nonsense. Look up the term 'population risk', you'll see it's a term for members of the general population with a certain genetic disorder...It's true having more unhealthy people means having more costs, but as i've explained to you several times now, it's not the main/only reason USA has the highest HC costs.
DeathToTheDictators 4 months ago
@DeathToTheDictators You truly are just as retarded as somename99, and yet there's millions more arithmetically challenged tools right behind you. The cost to insure any insurance pool is directly proportional to the population risk of the pool; these are actuarial terms, not medical terms, genius... So please, tell me what the top most prevalent and expensive illnesses are in the US. And then tell me that personal irresponsibility has nothing--nothing, we swear!--to do with HC costs.
thereinliestherib 4 months ago
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somename99 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib No dear, the only idiot is you, I don' t have to prove you wrong, you haven't offered anything but empty rhetoric, despite being given numerous chances you've failed to provide comparative data to "prove" your pink unicorn theory, clearly there is no data to support it as it is a flawed, false premise, that you are unable to find data to prove your "theory" is laughable, I don't need to do anything.
somename99 4 months ago
@somename99 When you can name one country with a 75% obesity/overweight rate, I will bow down to you at the unemployment office.
thereinliestherib 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib I don't have to name another country, your stat does absolutely nothing to support your theory by itself.
Whilst you will spend most of your life at the unemployment office, you will need to finish school first, although that seems unlikely as you can't grasp basic concepts such as providing data to back up a theory.
Perhaps you should check the data exists before coming out with your next crackpot theory, it will be less embarrassing for you when someone calls your bluff.
somename99 4 months ago
@somename99 Of course. Because this country's near 75% obesity/overweight rate is a lie, and has no effect whatsoever on health care costs. Just as drunk drivers don't affect insurance pools, crooked bankers don't crash financial markets, and cows jump over moons.
thereinliestherib 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib You've had it explained to you more than once that to support your crackpot theory you need to provide comparative data for smoking (as the other major cause of preventive illness), the costs & obesity levels for more than just the US, you have despite laughably claiming you had the data, failed to provide half of those figures, the obesity level by itself is meaningless.
Your feeble attempts to distract from the fact you have no evidence for your theory don't fool anyone,
somename99 4 months ago
@somename99 Neat. Now answer a question, any one will do. Start with why US HC costs so much, not only by itself, but also disproportionately in comparison with other countries. Then explain how its not because of insurance pool risk, or the trillions we bleed every year treating such resopnsible conditions as lung cancer, emphysema, obesity, heart disease... You're a troll; post a response or go thy ways.
thereinliestherib 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib Not neat, purely basic statistics and how these things work from school to the workplace, present a theory and back it up with data, no one is going to take your word for it, your failure to do so just makes your theory look even more broken.
The only troll (or should I say world's worst shill) here is you dear, you've made about a zillion posts for over a year repeating the same crackpot theory without posting the required comparative data to back it up once.
somename99 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@thereinliestherib Not neat, purely basic statistics and how these things work from school to the workplace, present a theory and back it up with data, no one is going to take your word for it, your failure to do so just makes your theory look even more broken.
The only troll (or should I say world's worst shill) here is you dear, you've made about a zillion posts for over a year repeating the same crackpot theory without posting the required comparative data to back it up once
somename99 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib "why US HC costs so much, not only by itself, but also disproportionately in comparison with other countries?" a few things wrong with this question:
Why does a Ferrari cost so much, not only by itself, but (uh ya actually just by itself) disproportionately (wait, i guess i made it clear the Ferrari cost is disproportionate with the expression"so much") in comparison with other (although i guess it was kinda implied we compare a Ferrari's cost with cars and not houses) cars?
DeathToTheDictators 4 months ago
@DeathToTheDictators Obfuscation. Answer the simplest question: why are US healthcare costs so high? How do you discount the role of poor American health, when by EXPONENTIAL MARGINS it is the most direct drain on HC resources? If you blame the private market, then why are medicaid, tricare, and other govt run programs in deeper red ink because of exploding pool risk, and thus, skyrocketing liabilities? I can show you the facts a thousand times and you'll just cry/run back to the DNC.
thereinliestherib 4 months ago
@DeathToTheDictators Obfuscation. Answer the simplest question: why are US healthcare costs so high? How do you discount the role of poor American health, when by EXPONENTIAL MARGINS it is the most direct drain on HC resources? If you blame the private market, then why are medicaid, tricare, and other govt run programs in deeper red ink because of exploding pool risk, and thus, skyrocketing liabilities? I can show you the facts a thousand times and you'll just cry/run back to the DNC.
thereinliestherib 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib Yes...obsufacation...exactly what you're guilty of.
"why are US healthcare costs so high?" as i've explained to you for the 4th time now, costs are not only high because of poor habits, but also lawsuits, fraud, profits,etc...how many more times am i gonna have to explain this to you? Lemme guess, 350 BILLION ON OBESITY!..but you keep ignoring the billions and billions that are added because the US system is private. Your insistence (350 BiILLION!) defies logic and reason.
DeathToTheDictators 4 months ago
@DeathToTheDictators You're facts are incomplete, and yep, obfuscating. Show me what proportion lawsuits, fraud, and admin account for compared with the national costs of obesity/weight problems, heart disease, and smoking related illness like asthma, emphysema, and lung cancer. I'll restrain my laughter until you complete the other required component for your argument to succeed...
thereinliestherib 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib "compared with the national costs of obesity/weight" why compare? the private system and fat people both cost Americans money, eliminate either one and costs go down. Here's a question for you, which is easier, simply changing a few laws/regualtions (and making care public) or getting millions of Americans to have better health habits?
DeathToTheDictators 4 months ago
@DeathToTheDictators You're evading the question. Try again.
thereinliestherib 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib
private system: 350 billion (it's actually 187 but whatever) plus fraud-60 billion, plus Lawsuits-7 billion, plus pharma profits-36 billion, plus insurance profits-13 billion, plus 'care to the uninsured' 43 billion, etc...
public system: 350 (187) Billion.
Again i ask you, which is easier, having the president and congress make a REAL (not Obamacare) public care bill into law (that saves Americans a lot of money), or waiting for years until enough Americans are healthy?
DeathToTheDictators 4 months ago
@DeathToTheDictators And most of these same figures will exist under a public-private system (there will never be an exclusively public system, unless you believe govt can seize entire industries). Likewise your figure of $350 billion is less than what obesity costs the system each year, and that's just one of the several most prevalent (idiotic) personal conditions driving up our HC costs. You fail. If you're interested in the truth, look up the numbers for existing public HC systems...
thereinliestherib 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib "these same figures will exist under a public-private system" really? So how is there fraud in a system where the govt pays for anyone and everyone's care? How can we steal something when it's already being provided? Are you insane? Do you understand how logic works? FAIL.
"unless you believe govt can seize entire industries", there's no 'belief' involved. Under a single payer system the govt IS the only payer, they pay for and run the whole system.
DeathToTheDictators 4 months ago
@DeathToTheDictators Now show me the govt. data. Govt exposure to lawsuits is FAR greater than the private sector, which is what (democratic) trial lawyers build their careers on. The private sector regularly beats govt by a two-to-one ratio in terms of efficiency. A single-payer system is just a covert form of corporate welfare for HC companies, by creating a mandatory customer base that allocates its costs inversely with personal risk. Sad, but true...
thereinliestherib 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib What govt data? Lawsuits occur because of some medical error of somesort. The doctor or hospital (or their insurer) then has to pay. Do you have any stats proving patients under medicaid/care file more suits than those under private insurance? Please post.
"a covert form of corporate welfare for HC companies" WTF are you talking about? There are no 'HC companies' in a single payer system! Just the govt, and the hospitals and doctors get paid by the govt!
DeathToTheDictators 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib I believe i've already explained to you that 'having the worst health habits in the world' is not the only reason USA pays more for HC (and other nations have lots of fatties too). Once again, billions is spent on: lawsuits, insurance company profits, people who receive care but don't pay, fraud, etc...all extra costs that only the US private system is subject to.
DeathToTheDictators 5 months ago
@DeathToTheDictators And I never said it's the "only" reason--I said its the primary reason, by enormous margins. You honestly think corporate conspiracies and admin overheads take precedent over an astounding 75% obese/overweight rate, among other just as poor stats? Keep voting democrat, and pray the illusion doesn't fall on your head.
thereinliestherib 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib It's not about 'taking precedent', it's about keeping cost down. It's not like we have to choose between 'healthier habits' and a 'public system', we can have both. If/when people change their habits, it will lower costs...but until this happens, we still need to pay for their care. The private system makes this (paying for unhealthy Americans) more expensive (because of all these extra costs ie. profits) than it would if the system were public.
DeathToTheDictators 5 months ago
@DeathToTheDictators About keeping costs down? And do tell--where do the majority of those costs come from??? Your public/private dichotomy is completely false. Public systems (medicaid, medicare, and especially tricare) are in even deeper red ink than the private system exactly because they have to assume so much unsustainable US risk. Tricare's (military HC) most acute cost problem--no shit--is treating the hip problems of obese recruits. Public systems work great, huh?
thereinliestherib 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib "medicaid, medicare, and especially tricare) are in even deeper red ink than the private system" but these things are all part of the the US system! It's the system itself that's crap. If there wasn't medicaid, medicare etc...costs would be lower, but how many more people (currently 47 million or 14% aren't covered) wouldn't have any coverage? A true public system (not obamacare) would cost less and cover every citizen. It's how every other developed nation does it.
DeathToTheDictators 5 months ago
@DeathToTheDictators Those are examples of public run systems; which have a common problem of removing personal responsibility (risk accountability), and thus passively encourage poor health. I mention those examples because they contradict the public vs. private claim: if these systems have the same cost problems, how can we deny that those costs are due to anything but population risk (ie, poor national health)? How can you blame private markets variables when they aren't a factor??
thereinliestherib 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib "a common problem of removing personal responsibility" so are you saying people choose to have unhealthy habits because they know they will get affordable HC? 'I can afford to be fat, and that's why i am...nevermind the fact that i might still die, no matter how good my HC coverage is', is this the mentality you suggest is sweeping the world? And by your logic (personal responsibility) shouldn't Americans be the most healthy because their care is the most expensive? (cont)
DeathToTheDictators 5 months ago
@thereinliestherib (cont) "How can you blame private markets variables when they aren't a factor?" how are they not a factor? The system pays for 'unhealthy people', 'insurance profits', fraud, 'pharmaceutical company profits' etc...ALL factors in the cost of the the US HC system. How can you say they are not a factor? That's a complete fallacy.
DeathToTheDictators 5 months ago
@DeathToTheDictators A fallacy is an illogical statement, not one that has to do with determinations of fact. So please, give direct examples of acute problems with the private market, and how much they cost. And I will return to you the fact that obesity ALONE costs the HC system--even excluding broader public and economic costs--350 billion/yr, and skyrocketing. That's over 1/6th of overall spending on HC, using 2.3 trillion as a baseline. Give one example even approaching that figure.
thereinliestherib 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib public care means 350 billion (it's actually less than 200 bil, but this doesn't change my argument) for obesity, end of story. Private care means 350 bil for obesity, plus X bil for fraud, plus X bil for insurance profits, plus X bil for pharma profits, plus X bil for people who receive care but can't pay etc....as you can see, having the most unhealthy people in the world is bad, but having to pay for them through a private system is even worse.
DeathToTheDictators 4 months ago
@somename99 Why are you still posting? You browbeat "actual data" when the record shows pretty clearly that I'm the only one who's done so. Ergo, you're a troll.
thereinliestherib 4 months ago
@somename99 Where's the data I asked you for? I know the health stats for these countries because they are as easy as a 0.000000000001 second google search. I just want you to show them for me, because they contradict your point and reinforce my own: as with any insurance scheme, health care costs are directly proportional to population risk, ergo, national health.
thereinliestherib 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib The record shows you have posted nothing on the smoking data for the US either costs or percentage of smokers, same for France, plus nothing on the cost of obesity to the French system. Therefore the record shows that you have been unable to support your crackpot theory that US healthcare costs twice as much due to preventative illness.
It is clear the data doesn't support your joke of a theory else you would of posted it, there would be no reason not to.
somename99 4 months ago
@somename99 The record shows I asked you for those figures. I have them in .000000005 seconds, and you do too. I want you to post them because they make my point, and contradict yours. Tell me, what other country on the entire planet has a 75% obesity/overweight rate? Name one and you win. Come on now, its not that difficult to refute a counterpoint if you have data to support your claims...
thereinliestherib 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib The record shows you were told you were living in a fantasy world if you expect others to do your research and post data for your theory.
You've come up with a silly theory off the top of your head, when asked to back that theory up, you've found the data doesn't support it, so spouted feeble excuses like "I want you to post them because they make my point", rather than be a man.
Your point would be made if you posted this data, it's obvious why you've failed to do so.
somename99 4 months ago
@somename99 Your personal exceptionalism amazes me. try again.
thereinliestherib 4 months ago
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somename99 4 months ago
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somename99 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib The exceptionalism of anyone who grasps basic concepts like providing data to back up theories, amazes you, which would be anyone that has finished school.
I don't have to 'try' anything dear, you're the who the butted in, claiming your fantasy theory explained the cost difference, it's your own fault you've spent four weeks looking an ass, desperately trying to avoid the fact you don't have the evidence with pathetic excuses, because you can't find the comparative data.
somename99 4 months ago
@somename99 You: "I believe the sky is purple, and my claim is true unless someone can contradict it."
Me: "That's not their responsibility, it's yours."
You: "PURPLE! PURPLE! PURPLE!"
And I'm sure its irrelevant that the majority of our HC expenditures go toward conditions directly related to personal irresponsibility (smoking, obesity, etc). I think you're mad just because of the overbearing probability that you are obese/overweight...
thereinliestherib 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib No dear, the only mad one here is you who thinks simply because you present some bizarre theory that everyone else will simply take your empty unsubstantiated rhetoric as fact without the comparative data to back it up. Outside of your little fantasy world that is not ho it works.
That you still can't produce the data just says it all about your laughable theory, which like you is a joke.
somename99 4 months ago
@somename99 I haven't even read a isngle on of your posts since you refuse to offer your own data. Why do you keep posting? Why do you deny the direct, exponential costs of poor health in America, when its as clear as day? I'm just curious. People like you are the HC equivalent of evolution denialists. And since we all know you're "above" matters of fact, its just entertaining to watch you tie yourselves in knots around ideological assumptions.
thereinliestherib 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib Given you've repeated specific phrases in my posts, we'll add to your other lies, such as having data to support your BS theory.
As for evolution denialists, I am afraid you need to look in the mirror, you like them have come up with a joke of a theory and like them you expect people to "take your word on it" without providing sufficient data to support it.
continued >>>
somename99 4 months ago
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somename99 4 months ago
@thereinliestherib cont >
I've already stated I agree obesity /smoking cause additional healthcare costs, they do that in all countries, your laughably claim was that this accounted for the US healthcare system costing twice as much as the French, as of yet you have not provided data to show that (because of course it doesn't exist), so we are just left with your empty rhetoric of a theory, you'd fit right in with the intelligent design nutters they think they don't need to provide proof either
somename99 4 months ago
@somename99 Metaphorical? You haven't contradicted or responded to a single factual claim I've made, which is why you're doing this regressing BS. No right wing politico has made the point that abyssmal national health is the real reason our HC costs are so high, and so disproportional to other nations. So tell me, what are the top most prevalent and expensive ailments in America? Which are NOT because of personal choice? What country has worse health rates than the US? Name ONE.
thereinliestherib 5 months ago
@somename99 The US almost defaulted on their debt; Moody's just lowered our bond rating and all this without even factoring in the massive expense that Socialized Healthcare places on our us (we're not France; we have 308Million People in this country!). And forget any more advancement in Med. Innovation; America’s all the World has left. France hands out free procedures/drugs that we invent. Any vestige of talent in the instutry is on the first plane to the US (shit, my doctor’s French)!
mdstalla 5 months ago
@somename99 And you see to have no regard for exactly what Free Market Capitalism has done for the World in its short experimentive history. France? Last I checked my grandfather’s brother was still buried at Normandy. After WWI France mocked us for our continued investment into Military Technology…they got the point when Hitler put a Nazi flag on the Eiffel Tower. As in military as in medicine; these people are completely dependent on the US for dealing with the big issues
mdstalla 5 months ago
@somename99 (like fighting totalitarian regimes and Inventing/advancing treatments/cures). Sitting back and treating curable aliments is easy; anyone can do that…but how many Cancer/AIDs patients advocate your ‘humanitarian’ efforts? In any event; the US’s success has always hailed from ‘individual freedom/responsibility?’ This constant push for pooling (redistributing) resources for the greater good is sustainable nowhere in histroy; except the wanting space between your Liberal ears.
mdstalla 5 months ago
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@somename99 "The US system is an inefficient rip off, full of waste, do you know what percentage of the Australian healthcare budget goes on admin - 3%, Singapore - 2.9%, UK - 4.6%, the US 7.6%."
The flaw in your argument is that these stats are symmetrical with each country's national health ratings, respectively. Systemic causes have very little to do with our costs, which arise mostly out of, among other things, the fact that the US is 75% obese/overweight.
thereinliestherib 5 months ago
the man who made this video is a moron. I loved the line about how the public airplane promises to get everyone to "healthyville" "Just like the Private Airplane". The whole debate assumes that private healthcare is delivering. Well, it is; it is delivering a statistically 3rd world service: the rich get great treatment, the insured get so-so treatment and the rest get nothing. Like Egypt. Recent research publised in Time shows the US ranked no 31 in maternity/infant care. Shameful
CobinRain 9 months ago
@CobinRain And once again, you're ignoring that skyrocketing pool risk due to insanely poor national health is the primary reason our HC stinks. All people like you support is increasing liability for irresponsible people--which makes as much sense as requiring young, healthy, fleeced students to pay unrepresentative coverage rates just so Johnny Marlboro can get a heart bypass because he won't quit smoking. How is that supposed to resolve the root HC problem of personal irresponsibility?
thereinliestherib 8 months ago
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stringlov 9 months ago 17
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stringlov 9 months ago 21
@haleyd12345 Private insurance operates on the basis that most customers will not make a claim. That many ill people will not be allowed to insure. That claims will always in someway have limits to the liability. With private insurance you end up paying more in than what you get out. Don't make a claim? Your money ends up ether paying for the insured sick or paying the very high administration, pay bonuses or company profits. Please see “the U.S. Healthcare system in international Context”
davijeph 9 months ago
@haleyd12345 I won't continue to get into a debate on ideology on healthcare. I believe, as does the vast majority of the world, that healthcare is a right. You don't. So be it. Your tune might change when you are older. But if you are going to use false stats about our system to prop up your argument, you will fail everytime.
MadHabber93 9 months ago
@MadHabber93 If health care is a right, then aren't 74% this country's citizens criminals for being fat? If someone possesses a specific right, isn't it against the law to infringe upon that persons ability to claim that right? So why is it okay for the unhealthy and irresponsible to prevent the healthy from buying insurance according to their personal risk level???
thereinliestherib 8 months ago
@thereinliestherib obesity rate in US 31% vs UK-Australia 23%, GDP% dedicated to healthcare US-15.8 UK-9.7 Aus-8.9...are you suggesting the 8% obesity gap accounts for the approx 150% more cost for care? There are many reasons private care costs more: lawsuits, people who choose not to pay for insurance, people who can't afford insurance, insurance profits, etc...non of this occurs under a universal system. it's not as simple as 'America just has more fat people'. feel free to look it all up.
TheRandiniarolla 7 months ago
@TheRandiniarolla You'll notice that obesity could easily account for a substantial part of the difference; and since obesity is only ONE of many indicators of poor health, the aggregated stats fall in perfect symmetry with the national differences. It's a basic rule of insurance markets that the cost-to-cover for any population is directly proportional to risk--in this case, national health. You disagree with 1) basic market principle 2) the leading most costly illnesses in America.
thereinliestherib 7 months ago
@TheRandiniarolla You're also completely ignoring the fact that govt run insurers in are in even deeper red ink than private markets, precisely because of insane US pool risk. In fact, the most acute problem military Tricare faces are the hip injuries of overweight recruits, recruits who then draw benefits for the rest of their lives without even serving. How can private market factors be blamed for differential national HC costs when the private market is no factor??? Derrr....
thereinliestherib 7 months ago
@thereinliestherib i agree poor health habits are a major burden on care costs, but America is not alone in this problem, and show me some stats proving America's higher rate of poor health habits are exactly proportionate to the higher costs America pays compared to the rest of the world for care. The stats i've seen say differently.
"govt run insurers in are in even deeper red ink than private markets" only in America, it's the only 1st world care system where private is involved
TheRandiniarolla 7 months ago
@TheRandiniarolla You're ignoring the data I gave you. Existing govt run insurers are in the tank--yet you're still trying to blame the evil "private market" when it isn't even a factor. If you deny that a 75% obesity/overweight rate has a direct, proportional effect on HC markets, then you're a friggin moron. Across the board, the cost to insure any population is directly proportional to risk (health), which is exactly why America has such disproportionally costly outcomes--we're HUUUUGE.
thereinliestherib 7 months ago
@thereinliestherib i'm not denying "govt run insurers are in the tank", i said America is the only nation where this can happen because healtcare is mostly run as a 'business' and not as an 'essential service to the people'. Did you know health insurance executives earn double digit million$ salaries and bonuses? Why not dedicate this money to care? This is the way every other developed nation does it, and so should America. Don't tell me "private market it isn't even a factor"when it clearly is
TheRandiniarolla 7 months ago
@TheRandiniarolla Damn--you're an absolute moron. I'll explain this again. How can you blame private market factors, when govt-run insurers are facing the same problem of unsustainable pool risk??? I got news pally, people make $money$ because it is the engine of the economy, which then grants the ability of postmodern trolls like yourself to select the truth you wish to believe.
thereinliestherib 7 months ago
@thereinliestherib the fact remains private care involves additiional costs universal doesn't (as i've already explained) such as lawsuits, insurance profits, etc...this costs the American system billions, which means higher premiums for the consumer. These are costs every other developed country doesn't have to deal with because their care systems aren't priivate. America would have lower unsustainable pool risk if the system were truly universal, not a disfunctional hybrid
TheRandiniarolla 7 months ago
@TheRandiniarolla Sorry dude, no other developed country in the world has as poor health, and thus as high pool risk, as the US; and individual health has NOTHING to do with systemic factors. If this were a healthy country, I'd gladly support universal healthcare--it ain't. And if you're honestly implying that govt run HC institutions are more efficient or less exposed to liability/discrimination claims, well there's about several billion dollars and thousands of counterexamples to your claim.
thereinliestherib 7 months ago
@thereinliestherib you're ignoring the fact care costs are higher than they need to be, regardless of the fact that Americans have the poorest health in the world. America needs to pay for care, whether it's the most fit nation or the slobiest, and the private system is more costly...the facts and numbers support this, end of argument.
"less exposed to liability/discrimination claims" if i'm not mistaken, in nations like Canada, universal health providers are legaly liable to a max of $100,000.
TheRandiniarolla 7 months ago
@TheRandiniarolla "regardless of the fact that Americans have the poorest health in the world." Regardless? It's pretty hard to disregard a 75% obesity/overweight rate and that the most expensive ailments in this country result from irresponsibility. Pretty hard to disregard that the restructuring of healthcare has been only to increase costs among lower risk individuals to offset the exploding liabilities of the obese and unhealthy. Pretty damn hard to disregard reality ya ignorant rube.
thereinliestherib 7 months ago
@thereinliestherib look here "ignorant rube", the fact is private costs more than universal, THAT'S the reality. I mean are you seriously arguing it's better for American healthcare consumers if they pay more? This is completely illogical. Again, whether it's the fattest nation or the fittest, universal care costs American care consumers less than private care. Your argument makes no sense.
TheRandiniarolla 7 months ago
@TheRandiniarolla Hey guy, by ignoring my points you're only validating them. Why are non-private govt insurers in the tank, and even moreso than private insurers? Answer the question, or be gone. And if you honestly believe the absurd notion that population health (risk) has no effect on HC markets, you're completely deluded.
thereinliestherib 6 months ago
@thereinliestherib HC is cheaper when funded through tax, not an 'insurance' system. The Obama bill and the whole system for the last 100 years has been ineffective and inefficient. "believe that population health (risk) has no effect on HC markets" did i say that? i believe my exact words were "i agree poor health habits are a major contributer to care costs". Everyone knows Americans are the fattest, this doesn't change the fact private systems cost more because of lawsuits, profits etc...
TheRandiniarolla 6 months ago
@TheRandiniarolla So in other words, some sort of baseless corporate shadow conspiracy is the cause of disproportional national health costs; not a 75% obesity/overweight rate, not a 20-25% smoking rate, not ubiquitous national drug/alcohol abuse, not the fact that all of the most expensive and common ailments draining HC resources are all related to poor individual health and irresponsibility, not the 350 billion we spend every year on obesity alone, not reality...
thereinliestherib 6 months ago
@thereinliestherib "baseless corporate shadow conspiracy" actually it's no big secret. Google 'ammount USA spends on medical lawsuits per year', 'health insrance CEO salaries and bonuses', 'ammount of Americans who choose not to pay/ can't afford health insurance' etc....all of these ammount to raising the cost of private care by billions and billions.
And the US isn't the ONLY developed nation with poor health habit epidemics, yet you're throwing around that argument like it is.
TheRandiniarolla 6 months ago
@TheRandiniarolla Sorry pal, but you're completely ignoring the stats. No other country on the planet has as abyssmal individual health stats as the US. And all the phenomena you mentioned would abide just as much under a public system. Public govt insurers have already suffered substantial losses because of lawsuits, specifically because the govt is far more exposed to liability than private insurers. Try again, this time with facts.
thereinliestherib 6 months ago
@thereinliestherib "abide just as much under a public system" i'm sorry but that simply isn't true, look it up. Lawsuits are under a cap in universal systems, and there are NO profits, and everyone pays taxes to fund care (there are no insurance pools).
"govt insurers have suffered substantial losses from lawsuits", "more exposed to liability than private insurers" liabilty and lawsuits are only a major care cost factor in the US system! Again, every other nation has a cap ($100,000 in Canada).
TheRandiniarolla 6 months ago
@TheRandiniarolla Obviously facts are too much to ask from someone who flatly refuses to depart from ideology and left wing propaganda. Once again, you completely deny that the distinction between public and private markets is irrelevant compared with broader factors, such as poor national health. Tell me, what is the foremost determinant of cost for any insurance market, whether public or private?
thereinliestherib 6 months ago
@thereinliestherib "ideology and left wing propaganda" whatever sir i've given you easily verifiable hard facts, there's no ideoligy involved.
"the distinction between public and private markets is irrelevant compared with broader factors" so are billions and billions of $ "irrelevant"?
"foremost determinant of cost for any insurance market" Seriously!? how many times do i need to point out the US is the only developed nation with a health 'insurance' system? Health 'insurance' doesn't work!
TheRandiniarolla 6 months ago
@TheRandiniaro