I don't understand how they missed that, on a C-5 there are three stations, pilot, co-pilot and flight engineer, who can monitor the engines and none of these three caught that they had an active engine in idol and were manipulating the dead engine? I also understand they used excessively aggressive flaps.
From a CRM standpoint, when that guy says I don't know why we are even doing 40 degrees of flaps, he probably could have worded that better. In a bad situation you still gotta work with these guys and they end up having a little disagreement with the flap situation because of that instead of more time working the problem. I also like when the one guy says "guys I'm concerned, thats necessary rather than staying quiet and having more problems. Thank god all lived.
The plane can land on two engines, I was onboard for that once, but not with that much flaps. Straight from the -1 two engine cofiguration is flaps up till final approach fix then to 40. Flaps may be put to landing once landing is assured, within 1 mile of touchdown and in position for safe landing. Classic CRM and Situational awareness failure by all on the dlight deck. The pilot copilot and jump seat should have seen all the indications on the panel and the engineer has his own set of gauges
@MrHHH356 that airplane isnt' going to fly well on 2 engines at 840,000 pounds of gross weight and at a high ambient temperature. You're speaking in generalities and not specific conditions. You're right---that RESERVE crew should be horsewhipped and the engineer should have his face shoved into the engine instrument panel.
@Iamfukenripped Its actually easy to do, one guy knew the FMS system better than the other so they swaped controls without giving a breifing to the recieving pilot so he made a mistake. When the ground is coming up at you at 1000 fpm stuff can easily get overlooked.
@navyocs Well, I guess... .We all make mistakes... Its easy to say, omg thiats so daft... but i could have been in that plane and done the same thing.. just shocking, scary and sad..
@Iamfukenripped I almost shutdown the wrong engine once with the wrong mixture control just by moving too fast through the procedure. I only had to prop engines these guys got four turbines.
@747erik Its a tool investigators use to visualise the flight data readouts. This makes it possible (with CVR available too) to make a clear model of the entire incident, that mimics every move the crew made. The U.S NTSB makes extensive use of this type of modelling. It's nothing to do with fancy graphics (hence no skin on the model) its just about what went wrong - and in that sense it makes it clearer than any written report ever could.
@WSPSkydiver Yes, I know it was a real accident and I'm not being judgmental. They always say commercial jets dump excess fuel before landing. Also, if they had not hit the utility pole, would they have landed safely?
@matt605 not likely, If you look at the video ( @ 0:45 ), you will see on the right that they were throttling up engine #2, which was the inoperative engine (notice the red text). They should have been throttling up engine #3 instead, which was operating normally.
It appears they accidentally swapped engine throttles upon final approach (#2 and 3). Because of this, they did not have the power required to climb, which resulted in a stall situation. The full report can be found online.
they just got the engines mixed up one was f*cked up and they thought it was 3 instead of 2 so they throttled up a already dead number 2 while leaving 3 down at idle, essentially running off of 2 engines 1 and 4. lack of communication and pilot error is what it comes down to. they showed us this alot
Underpowered? You do realize that engine #2 was shut down, engine #3 was at idle, the aircraft was loaded up with cargo, and the flaps were incorrectly set, right?
@YukkiHabiki Taking into consideration the era in which the TF-39 was originally developed, & the FACT that the next largest Airframe of that Era for the Engineers to utilize as a measurement platform was almost LESS than half the overall size & wieght of a C-5, as well as Prop-driven. Your statement is innane & moot. The Engines are PROVEN after 40 Yrs of CONSTANT Service & MET EVERY SINGLE Criteria the Air Force demanded from the Manufacturer plus MORE.
The configuration caused the accident. The crew put too much flaps simulating one engine inop, During one engine out operation the aircraft should be flown in a nose down attitude well above the glide slope or papi runway indication.. flying all the time below the glide slope on an ILS without visual reference to the ground was a fatal mistake.
The new "glass cockpit" layout makes visual id of N1 more difficult the gauges are the size of a silver dollar....thank the airforce for adopting a fixed it broken mentality to an working system
@tjenk712 Maybe it will now force the engineer to monitor his engines during critical phases of flight now! But then again, some slugs are asleep at the helm.....
Ok, WSPSkydiver, you don't want personal attacks....no problem...lets look at the bright side; the grass at the runway approach didnt have to be mowed that week
I had to get blood test, piss test and a written statement after this happened.. I was stationed at Dover AFB at the time.... WHAT A FREAK'N DAY THAT WAS. Everyone survived but two elderly passengers where taken to the hospital for a check up. The flight deck is now used as a simulator. The rest I think got scrapped...
@xxjdsupermanxx We all had to go through testing and make statements after class A's and B's---I was with Gen Floyd on balls 2 when 3 C-5's landed short at Muskogee OK back in 88---"I lost my bogie in Muskogee". We didn't land short! I proved it but the AF doesn't listen---it worships only political correctness now!
@PICLex They had an engine faliure but accidentally left a working engine at idle rather than the failed one. The plane could'nt fly on two engines with the amount of flaps they used.
If only an alert Flight Engineer had bellowed: "Advance #3 engine---It's at Idle---Youre using the wrong throttle". I thought that's what we pay them for.
@IdolHans The pilot's were doing such a horrible job, I don't think the third engine would have helped do anything other than get to the crash site a little faster.
Still don't understand why pilots ignore GPWS time and again. No corrective action taken after the terrain warning sounded. It's like the pilots think they know better than the precisely engineered computers which billions of dollars were spent towards their development to keep planes from crashing. Stupid crash. Also the telemetry showed that they were WAY under the glideslope the entire time. Again, stupid.
Listen to the engineer's Before Landing Checklist Item at time 00:44----what is a AGBWS? ---Clearly, that's what the FE stated! Listen to it! Unless there's been a serious mod to the airplane, I believe the item is "GPWS" and the correct co-pilot response is either "on" or "inhibit" (depending on flap setting). How is it that a qualified FE can say something like that?
Listen to the engineer's Before Landing Checklist Item at time 00:44----what is a AGBWS? ---Clearly, that's what the FE stated! Listen to it! Unless there's been a serious mod to the airplane, I believe the item is "GPWS" and the correct co-pilot response is either "on" or "inhibit" (depending on flap setting). How is it that a qualified FE can say something like that?
@nocalsteve --no kidding! You're speaking to a C-5 IFE with 6981.5 hours! I retired in '03. Go look at my YouTube video on the Major Jill Metzger scandal too! Your blood in going to boil when you see it.
LOL, you can hear him say "oh, shi..." just as the audio cuts out. I wouldn't be laughing if I didn't know that they all survived, of course. What's with the #3 right after 2:01? He advances it a bit for a moment...I'm thinking that it was getting kind of hairy right then, and the instinct would be to push all 4 forward, like mashing the gas to the floor even when you're all out already. I wonder if they could have saved it if he had realized and advanced #3 to full power? They had 32 seconds.
@Lifeisincredible911 No, all 17 people survived, amazingly enough, but 2 had serious injuries. They had a "Thrust Reverser Not Locked" indicator after takeoff, and were trying to re-land while still heavy with fuel, etc. Start watching at :30, notice the bars for engine power (N2) and throttle lever position, on the right. The #2 engine is dead, but when they throttle down, he actually switches the #3 lever with the #2, trying to throttle up the DEAD engine, leaving the good #3 at idle. CONT-->
@Lifeisincredible911 The "N2" bars on top show the engine power, the red ones on the bottom show the throttle position. You can see the #1, 2 and 4 throttles advanced, while the #3 stays at idle, and you can see the N2 (engine RPM's) rise on #1 and 4. Of course, #2 stays dead, and #3 stays at idle. Hard to excuse that mistake. They make finals with only 2 engines but think they have 3. The flaps are set high to make more lift, but 2 engines aren't enough to keep airspeed up, and they crash.
Guys... it's obvious mistakes were made (that was proven in the final report). Please keep harsh comments, personal jabs, and bad language to an ablsolute minumum otherwise I will start blocking people, removing comments, and possibley disabling comments for this video.
Someone tell these wonderfully lobotomized Air Force officers that retracting wing flaps decreases the wing area, causing the airplane to SINK significantly. What they should have done first is increase throttle until they had gained enough altitude to retract flaps.
@mohammeddavis they were already in a high sink condition due to lack of sufficient airspeed. The reduction in flaps was to reduce drag to increase speed. Their critical error was in engine control. Look at the N1 gauge in comparison to the throttle position. The #2 engine was the engine they killed due to malfunction, but for some reason they are leaving the #3 engine (still running and operational) at idle and throttling up the #2 (dead) engine. This is why they were at a low airspeed.
The Air Force's accident investigation concluded the crash was a result of human error, most notably the determination that the crew kept one of the functioning engines in flight idle while manipulating the throttle of the (dead) number 2 engine as if it was still running, while having the number 3 engine at idle, an error that was further amplified by the crew's decision to use a high flap setting that increased drag beyond normal 2 engine performance capabilities.
This is unacceptable what a bunch of idiots. these guys sound like they are stoned.wtf tax payers dollars wasted on this crash. Were the pilots court brought up on charges. the only thing worse was the C17 crash at Bagram with no landing gear..... go BLUE
@monatanamail Well, "gear-up" landings are pretty common, actually. I think it's an exaggeration, but the saying goes "there are two kinds of pilots, those who have made a gear-up landing, and those who WILL make a gear-up landing". My guess is that, like the B-52, etc, the C-5's don't get the pilots who graduated "top of the class" from the academy. Not that they're idiots, but the best go to the "fast jets". I think they get to choose, actually. But these guys sure sounded "lacking".
Hi fella...just a civie....could you tell me why noone spotted their flaps/airspeed? If that guy hadn't pulled the nose up, he might had gotten another hundred feet out of her....
He notices the throttle screwup at 2:00 and starts to advance #3, but realizes it is futile. Buford comes out of his stupor to suggest flaps at 2:07, again, futile. Beginning of the end was when he overshot the turn to final and had to bank back while heavily loaded. If he had been flying the plane instead of worrying about overheating the brakes and taxiing...
got stuck in a shitty situation. the guy put full trottle on engine 2 thinking engine 3 was out but 2 was out so they unknowingly flew it on 2 engines. wow.,....
Wow smart pilot. Having engine troubles on 2 so brings 2 to idle, then decides to bring throttle of all engines back to idle, before then re-advancing throttle on 1 2 and 4, essentially attempting to land on 2 engines (2 is already fuct, and now 3 is on idle) Congratulations USAF.
The pilots were reserves and they had new intsurments put in that made everything digital. they were use to seeing dials and gauges helping them with their flying and they were learning how to use them.
@spacemanspiff33 I wasn't saying that it wasn't the pilots' fault. I was saying, that since the pilots were new to this. They should of asked for more training. They also have procedurce go follow for encase somethign like that were to happen and they didn't even do that.
@storm92jk There was more than 1 pilot in that plane, and the error was a rather simple error, I place a large chunk of the blame on the USAF and its shitty training for that one.
It is simple Human error. Speaking as an Ex. Stand-Eval. both on this Airframe and in the A.F. It IS ALL too easy to Monday morning Quarterback these situations.
#2 eng had a problem so the throttle was returned to idle during flt. the pilot accidentally swapped #2 with #3 @ 43 seconds causing both inbd engines to power @ idle, @ 50 seconds flaps were extended down f/e and pilot could not figure out y plane was rapidly decending (outbd engines couldnt produce enough thrust 2 keep a 250000 lb plane flying ) until it was to late so the pilot crashed into a field to save lives... pilot error
I am not sure, but footage of it did not look like it had 250k in cargo. however, it would be nice to see the loadplan. Just a guess, it was around 800-840,000lbs ramp weight.. that is the usual average if it was making a haul. At least, that was the average I used to load plan. We did hit a hair under 900,000 one time in my carrer.
@bestamerica Not so. As a matter of fact, the TF-39s the Airframe came equipped with were considered as 20% OVER-Powered. Two more Engines would have greatly increased Wing-Stress factors while sitting on the Ground. Not to mention, a greatly increased fuel-burn-rate. And then there are always the hidden costs of two more engines to Maintain and potentially break down. Sometimes, Less = More. Or, the reciprocal, More = Less.
No one has a clue on this post. I was one of the Engineers on this incident. I'd like to write a book on how and why this hapened. Anyone want to help? You people have NO clue. I currently have foot drop (broke my back). Had 19 years in. Great way to end a career.
The copilot the engineer and the PIC should have caught this! Slow and low, bad config, AMP, heads need to be up and jump seater should be doing the final config check on final!
Have 3500 Hours as C5 FE and everybody is to blame your instructor should have been looking up front as well since there was no sterile cockpit below 10 everybody running their mouths! As for the tired from show time we fly like that all the time really welcome to fred oh fly Amp as well!
Most of the comments posted are redundant.....are you folks too lazy to go back to the first post and quickly zero in on the guys who post with creditability?
I saw the wreckage about 30 min after the plane hit ground before dover airforce base blocked everyone from seeing anything. The nose did come off and the tail seemed to be in a single piece! That was the most weird thing i noticed was that the tail was all intact and disconnected from the plane.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Isn't it obvious? Those 2 flight engineers were stupid and they let this crap happen. They were asleep, not paying attention, being stupid---they let this happen! They are damned lucky they are not stone dead. IDIOTS! The taxpayer and vets HATE YOU!
Hats off to you. I know for a fact you guys are the best of the best. Its saddening at some of the comments, as the C5 was my favorite airframe, C-141 being second. I have a lot of head scratching on this information. Too bad I cant get more detailed information. Do you think this mishap would have occurred with the new more powerful engines? I love the sound of the TF-39's but I always felt they lacked the power needed.....Thrust to weight ratio as compared to others.
@PaganEgyptian Hmmmm. An Excellent Question. First, Thank-you for your complimentary comment. It is difficult to say if this incident could/would have been avoided assuming all the Factors were equivilent. For starters, the AC allowed the Airframe to get beneath the glideslope while on approach, and inside the Middle Marker. As an Instructor, my immediate
reaction would have been Missed-Approach-Cklist./ Go-Around.
@ancientastronomer @ PaganEgyptian Instead, the AC remains below the glideslope, initiates a right-Roll and begins to Decrease Eng. Thrust and Flaps to 90% prior to coming out of Roll? Why? It is obvious that he is attempting to Re-Intercept the Glideslope, but. Flaps @ 90% with Gear Extended, Minus One Eng.(Actually Two) while beneath Glideslope and
pulling Pwr.Off Prior to coming out of Roll? Based SOLELY upon this info. Pilot Error.
Your original question to me was did I think that this incident could/would
have been avoided with the New M-Model Eng.s? Probably not. My reasoning is based on the information available. Had he initiated a Missed-Approach/Go-around, Sucked the Gear, and shoveled the Coal to it to gain
precious altitude. He probably could have been SAFELY on the ground 15
@ancientastronomer It was blatantly pilot error. The actuation of a dead engine (#2) instead of the running engine (#3) contributed to their low airspeed. This was exacerbated by pulling too much flaps for an engine failure approach.
@ancientastronomer Congratulations on exposing yourself as a grade-A jackass with your asinine internet jabs. Anyway, of coarse you can make the 'hidsight is 20/20' calls about a crash such as this. That is the entire reason for black box recording. To find out what went wrong and what the flight crew did wrong so it may be corrected in the future. Regardless of the stress or the situation, critical mistakes were made by the f/c that led to the loss of the aircraft, thus pilot error, as i said.
Stress does not excuse pilot error. As a pilot you are trained to follow procedures intended to preserve the safety of your crew, your cargo, and your aircraft. Clearly this F/C deviated from those procedures and made serious and glaring mistakes due to lack of communication and awareness. This led to the loss of a $160 million dollar aircraft, its cargo, and serious injury or members of the F/C.
@ancientastronomer Stress, fatigue, nor emergency situations do not excuse a pilot or his crew from their duties, explain maybe, but not excuse. You're over complication of a simple pilot error accident has simply proven you lack of objectivity in the subject. Now please, shoot back with another one of you're ill thought out, juvenile rebuttals. I simply cannot wait to read it.
Thank god it was aiming for that runway, If it landed on the other it would of hit the highway
ForgottenModders 6 hours ago
quiero saber quienes eran los ocupantes del avion ..?? por favor alguien me puede decir
VictorJ0190 1 month ago
That is very true. I am a prior Army and Air Force pilot.
MrMLilly2822 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I don't understand how they missed that, on a C-5 there are three stations, pilot, co-pilot and flight engineer, who can monitor the engines and none of these three caught that they had an active engine in idol and were manipulating the dead engine? I also understand they used excessively aggressive flaps.
FLJuJitsu 3 months ago in playlist Aviation
Why is their so much talk on the intercom. Shouldn't their be only talk pertaining to the approach and IFE?
micrews 3 months ago
@zp129 ditto. For those of u who voted for Obama to prove you're not racist, vote for someone else next time to prove you're not an idiot.
namznej 4 months ago
when the hell are they going to finish the damn construction at the lame ass BX?
yilancio 4 months ago
From a CRM standpoint, when that guy says I don't know why we are even doing 40 degrees of flaps, he probably could have worded that better. In a bad situation you still gotta work with these guys and they end up having a little disagreement with the flap situation because of that instead of more time working the problem. I also like when the one guy says "guys I'm concerned, thats necessary rather than staying quiet and having more problems. Thank god all lived.
navyocs 5 months ago
The plane can land on two engines, I was onboard for that once, but not with that much flaps. Straight from the -1 two engine cofiguration is flaps up till final approach fix then to 40. Flaps may be put to landing once landing is assured, within 1 mile of touchdown and in position for safe landing. Classic CRM and Situational awareness failure by all on the dlight deck. The pilot copilot and jump seat should have seen all the indications on the panel and the engineer has his own set of gauges
MrHHH356 7 months ago
@MrHHH356 thanks for your input. It's much appreciated.
WSPSkydiver 7 months ago
Comment removed
SteveGad 3 months ago
@MrHHH356 that airplane isnt' going to fly well on 2 engines at 840,000 pounds of gross weight and at a high ambient temperature. You're speaking in generalities and not specific conditions. You're right---that RESERVE crew should be horsewhipped and the engineer should have his face shoved into the engine instrument panel.
IdolHans 1 month ago
they throttled the wrong engine up D: .... How did they manage that :O ...
Iamfukenripped 8 months ago in playlist aircraft
@Iamfukenripped Its actually easy to do, one guy knew the FMS system better than the other so they swaped controls without giving a breifing to the recieving pilot so he made a mistake. When the ground is coming up at you at 1000 fpm stuff can easily get overlooked.
navyocs 5 months ago
@navyocs Well, I guess... .We all make mistakes... Its easy to say, omg thiats so daft... but i could have been in that plane and done the same thing.. just shocking, scary and sad..
Iamfukenripped 5 months ago
@Iamfukenripped I almost shutdown the wrong engine once with the wrong mixture control just by moving too fast through the procedure. I only had to prop engines these guys got four turbines.
navyocs 5 months ago
i was at dover when this happened i was bout to help but they didn't let me every body was okay tho
MrPlanelover1 8 months ago
"OK, we just put it hopefully on the ground. We don't need a smooth touchdown."
ryanjmcgowan 8 months ago
flight simulator 1900? kkkkkkkkkk
747erik 8 months ago
@747erik This was a real accident. Google "c-5 crash dover afb" to learn more about it.
WSPSkydiver 8 months ago
@747erik Seriously?
pilotboy17 7 months ago
@747erik Its a tool investigators use to visualise the flight data readouts. This makes it possible (with CVR available too) to make a clear model of the entire incident, that mimics every move the crew made. The U.S NTSB makes extensive use of this type of modelling. It's nothing to do with fancy graphics (hence no skin on the model) its just about what went wrong - and in that sense it makes it clearer than any written report ever could.
SteveGad 3 months ago
Shouldn't they have dumped their fuel in the ocean before landing, or is that just a commercial aviation thing?
matt605 8 months ago
@matt605 This was a real accident. Google "c-5 crash dover afb" to learn more about it.
WSPSkydiver 8 months ago
@WSPSkydiver Yes, I know it was a real accident and I'm not being judgmental. They always say commercial jets dump excess fuel before landing. Also, if they had not hit the utility pole, would they have landed safely?
matt605 8 months ago
@matt605 not likely, If you look at the video ( @ 0:45 ), you will see on the right that they were throttling up engine #2, which was the inoperative engine (notice the red text). They should have been throttling up engine #3 instead, which was operating normally.
It appears they accidentally swapped engine throttles upon final approach (#2 and 3). Because of this, they did not have the power required to climb, which resulted in a stall situation. The full report can be found online.
WSPSkydiver 8 months ago
@matt605 Also, there have been a few of the crew members commenting on this. Maybe they can help describe what happened in better detail
WSPSkydiver 8 months ago
All aboard survived. From wikipedia.
clonessbr 11 months ago
they just got the engines mixed up one was f*cked up and they thought it was 3 instead of 2 so they throttled up a already dead number 2 while leaving 3 down at idle, essentially running off of 2 engines 1 and 4. lack of communication and pilot error is what it comes down to. they showed us this alot
outdoorsman767 11 months ago
looks like those 40 year old engines are all that and a bag of chips! LMAO
Way Underpowered for sure.
YukkiHabiki 11 months ago
@YukkiHabiki
Underpowered? You do realize that engine #2 was shut down, engine #3 was at idle, the aircraft was loaded up with cargo, and the flaps were incorrectly set, right?
xMKIVxVR6x 11 months ago
@xMKIVxVR6x well said...
WSPSkydiver 11 months ago
@YukkiHabiki Taking into consideration the era in which the TF-39 was originally developed, & the FACT that the next largest Airframe of that Era for the Engineers to utilize as a measurement platform was almost LESS than half the overall size & wieght of a C-5, as well as Prop-driven. Your statement is innane & moot. The Engines are PROVEN after 40 Yrs of CONSTANT Service & MET EVERY SINGLE Criteria the Air Force demanded from the Manufacturer plus MORE.
ancientastronomer 10 months ago
i'm sad :(
818doodooroo 1 year ago
SO CLOSE ON RUNWAY!
CalvinKuo17 1 year ago
The configuration caused the accident. The crew put too much flaps simulating one engine inop, During one engine out operation the aircraft should be flown in a nose down attitude well above the glide slope or papi runway indication.. flying all the time below the glide slope on an ILS without visual reference to the ground was a fatal mistake.
Crazyworld305 1 year ago
SO....what happened. The pillots dd not seem to realize a problem until late. ???
squadman33 1 year ago
@2:31 that is the most useless comment ever made....30 knts under approach speed high AOA and he says "...bring it out of stickshaker..."
tjenk712 1 year ago
@tjenk712 you must be pretty obsessed with this video, huh tjenk712?
WSPSkydiver 1 year ago
@WSPSkydiver It is unbelievable to me... it was an incident near and dear....thanks for posting ..
tjenk712 1 year ago
I have never seen so much interaction by so many "qualified" people produce such a poor outcome...
tjenk712 1 year ago
Maaaaaaaaaan. I was there when that shit happened. only thing killed in this were a few careers.
THe one in ramstein on the other hand...
mrtrin 1 year ago
That's must have been terrifying. Did they survive I hope?
Apolyion 1 year ago
Thank god it wasn't an Antonov 225... there wouldn't be any Dover left....
avatarcody1 1 year ago
.."bring it out of stickshaker " ...with what ? a prayer hyper-drive???
tjenk712 1 year ago
When they knew they were going to crash, why didn't they just reboot?
tjenk712 1 year ago
@tjenk712 Respawn in 5...
chaise91 1 year ago
The new "glass cockpit" layout makes visual id of N1 more difficult the gauges are the size of a silver dollar....thank the airforce for adopting a fixed it broken mentality to an working system
tjenk712 1 year ago
@tjenk712 Maybe it will now force the engineer to monitor his engines during critical phases of flight now! But then again, some slugs are asleep at the helm.....
IdolHans 1 year ago
Ok, WSPSkydiver, you don't want personal attacks....no problem...lets look at the bright side; the grass at the runway approach didnt have to be mowed that week
tjenk712 1 year ago
I had to get blood test, piss test and a written statement after this happened.. I was stationed at Dover AFB at the time.... WHAT A FREAK'N DAY THAT WAS. Everyone survived but two elderly passengers where taken to the hospital for a check up. The flight deck is now used as a simulator. The rest I think got scrapped...
xxjdsupermanxx 1 year ago
@xxjdsupermanxx We all had to go through testing and make statements after class A's and B's---I was with Gen Floyd on balls 2 when 3 C-5's landed short at Muskogee OK back in 88---"I lost my bogie in Muskogee". We didn't land short! I proved it but the AF doesn't listen---it worships only political correctness now!
IdolHans 1 year ago
Were there any Fatalities?
PSNgregiskool 1 year ago
@PSNgregiskool All 17 people aboard survived.
morailfan 1 year ago
nice vid im shure they frogout to put lockes on the doors on the c5
EmoRocker151 1 year ago
what was the prob? too much flap too soon??
PICLex 1 year ago
@PICLex They had an engine faliure but accidentally left a working engine at idle rather than the failed one. The plane could'nt fly on two engines with the amount of flaps they used.
Alanozitch 1 year ago
These pilots were very senior and got pretty jacked up. Attention to detail is key.
jrgronen 1 year ago
This is NEAT! Thanks Skydiver!
gbalciutegmail 1 year ago
I heard aw sh&$% in the background just after touchdown.
mustango656 1 year ago
There were pilot errors made, but it was an emergency landing due to a failure of a thrust reverser to lock out.
ke6gwf 1 year ago
If only an alert Flight Engineer had bellowed: "Advance #3 engine---It's at Idle---Youre using the wrong throttle". I thought that's what we pay them for.
IdolHans 1 year ago
@IdolHans It is a crew airplane, don't blame the FE, anyone one of those crew members in the cockpit should have caught that throttle
BigBaze27 1 year ago
@IdolHans The pilot's were doing such a horrible job, I don't think the third engine would have helped do anything other than get to the crash site a little faster.
nocalsteve 1 year ago
"guys, im concerned" Then follow your instincts.
umahuma4 1 year ago
guys im concerned
parth0096 1 year ago
Still don't understand why pilots ignore GPWS time and again. No corrective action taken after the terrain warning sounded. It's like the pilots think they know better than the precisely engineered computers which billions of dollars were spent towards their development to keep planes from crashing. Stupid crash. Also the telemetry showed that they were WAY under the glideslope the entire time. Again, stupid.
AdamJLemon 1 year ago
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Listen to the engineer's Before Landing Checklist Item at time 00:44----what is a AGBWS? ---Clearly, that's what the FE stated! Listen to it! Unless there's been a serious mod to the airplane, I believe the item is "GPWS" and the correct co-pilot response is either "on" or "inhibit" (depending on flap setting). How is it that a qualified FE can say something like that?
IdolHans 1 year ago
Listen to the engineer's Before Landing Checklist Item at time 00:44----what is a AGBWS? ---Clearly, that's what the FE stated! Listen to it! Unless there's been a serious mod to the airplane, I believe the item is "GPWS" and the correct co-pilot response is either "on" or "inhibit" (depending on flap setting). How is it that a qualified FE can say something like that?
IdolHans 1 year ago
@IdolHans There were two flight engineers. An FE and an instructor FE.
nocalsteve 1 year ago
@nocalsteve --no kidding! You're speaking to a C-5 IFE with 6981.5 hours! I retired in '03. Go look at my YouTube video on the Major Jill Metzger scandal too! Your blood in going to boil when you see it.
IdolHans 1 year ago
one engine out? who was flying the plane? seems that crew cordination broke down! What was the final result of the investigation?
HuasoPodrido 1 year ago
@HuasoPodrido ---crew was at fault. They got article 15's non judicial punishments but they are just reservists.
IdolHans 1 year ago
LOL, you can hear him say "oh, shi..." just as the audio cuts out. I wouldn't be laughing if I didn't know that they all survived, of course. What's with the #3 right after 2:01? He advances it a bit for a moment...I'm thinking that it was getting kind of hairy right then, and the instinct would be to push all 4 forward, like mashing the gas to the floor even when you're all out already. I wonder if they could have saved it if he had realized and advanced #3 to full power? They had 32 seconds.
justforever96 1 year ago
Thank God he didnt stall out over US route 113
airlinephl2 1 year ago
did they die? what happened/? God bless them
Lifeisincredible911 1 year ago
@Lifeisincredible911 No, all 17 people survived, amazingly enough, but 2 had serious injuries. They had a "Thrust Reverser Not Locked" indicator after takeoff, and were trying to re-land while still heavy with fuel, etc. Start watching at :30, notice the bars for engine power (N2) and throttle lever position, on the right. The #2 engine is dead, but when they throttle down, he actually switches the #3 lever with the #2, trying to throttle up the DEAD engine, leaving the good #3 at idle. CONT-->
justforever96 1 year ago
@Lifeisincredible911 The "N2" bars on top show the engine power, the red ones on the bottom show the throttle position. You can see the #1, 2 and 4 throttles advanced, while the #3 stays at idle, and you can see the N2 (engine RPM's) rise on #1 and 4. Of course, #2 stays dead, and #3 stays at idle. Hard to excuse that mistake. They make finals with only 2 engines but think they have 3. The flaps are set high to make more lift, but 2 engines aren't enough to keep airspeed up, and they crash.
justforever96 1 year ago
@Lifeisincredible911 all 17 members survived
techking00107 1 year ago
GUYS I'M CONCERNED
pryan37bb 1 year ago
Guys... it's obvious mistakes were made (that was proven in the final report). Please keep harsh comments, personal jabs, and bad language to an ablsolute minumum otherwise I will start blocking people, removing comments, and possibley disabling comments for this video.
Thankyou
WSPSkydiver 1 year ago 16
Someone tell these wonderfully lobotomized Air Force officers that retracting wing flaps decreases the wing area, causing the airplane to SINK significantly. What they should have done first is increase throttle until they had gained enough altitude to retract flaps.
mohammeddavis 1 year ago
@mohammeddavis they were already in a high sink condition due to lack of sufficient airspeed. The reduction in flaps was to reduce drag to increase speed. Their critical error was in engine control. Look at the N1 gauge in comparison to the throttle position. The #2 engine was the engine they killed due to malfunction, but for some reason they are leaving the #3 engine (still running and operational) at idle and throttling up the #2 (dead) engine. This is why they were at a low airspeed.
li7in6 1 year ago
@li7in6 OK, I see now. N1 shows #2 as dead. I guess they mistook the dead one for the live :)
mohammeddavis 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
/watch?v=VH-KDGRwwck - Russian documentary about NATO transport aviation. Including C-5 Galaxy, C-141 Starlifter, C-17 Globemaster III
BitnikGr 1 year ago
You should have been concerned a couple of minutes ago, champ.
ineedunguent 1 year ago
The Air Force's accident investigation concluded the crash was a result of human error, most notably the determination that the crew kept one of the functioning engines in flight idle while manipulating the throttle of the (dead) number 2 engine as if it was still running, while having the number 3 engine at idle, an error that was further amplified by the crew's decision to use a high flap setting that increased drag beyond normal 2 engine performance capabilities.
hukatus 1 year ago
This is unacceptable what a bunch of idiots. these guys sound like they are stoned.wtf tax payers dollars wasted on this crash. Were the pilots court brought up on charges. the only thing worse was the C17 crash at Bagram with no landing gear..... go BLUE
monatanamail 1 year ago
@monatanamail Well, "gear-up" landings are pretty common, actually. I think it's an exaggeration, but the saying goes "there are two kinds of pilots, those who have made a gear-up landing, and those who WILL make a gear-up landing". My guess is that, like the B-52, etc, the C-5's don't get the pilots who graduated "top of the class" from the academy. Not that they're idiots, but the best go to the "fast jets". I think they get to choose, actually. But these guys sure sounded "lacking".
justforever96 1 year ago
How many People were looking or not looking at the N1. My guess is 5. Atleast
mbecorby 2 years ago
@mbecorby yeah it was 100% for the last few seconds
Flyglobespan93 1 year ago
From the sound of it, everybody on the mic talks like it's their first day on the job. Why is this?
LateNightCable 2 years ago
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cfredflyu 2 years ago
Hi fella...just a civie....could you tell me why noone spotted their flaps/airspeed? If that guy hadn't pulled the nose up, he might had gotten another hundred feet out of her....
bryanttillman 2 years ago
Guys I'm concerned.
tentothetenth 2 years ago
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cfredflyu 2 years ago 3
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cfredflyu 2 years ago
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cfredflyu 2 years ago
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cfredflyu 2 years ago
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cfredflyu 2 years ago
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cfredflyu 2 years ago
He notices the throttle screwup at 2:00 and starts to advance #3, but realizes it is futile. Buford comes out of his stupor to suggest flaps at 2:07, again, futile. Beginning of the end was when he overshot the turn to final and had to bank back while heavily loaded. If he had been flying the plane instead of worrying about overheating the brakes and taxiing...
lancairian 2 years ago
What is the game
TheLordvoldemor 2 years ago
No. This is information of the black box this aircraft. Inside this box records the voices of the pilots and the that they tried make to if save
rodrigosantos472 2 years ago
its a blackbox animation
highflier217 2 years ago
got stuck in a shitty situation. the guy put full trottle on engine 2 thinking engine 3 was out but 2 was out so they unknowingly flew it on 2 engines. wow.,....
sailesh2001 2 years ago
wow you live in denver. I live in Delaware 30 miles north of Dover
highsteel240 2 years ago
I Live in denver!!!
DACOJACKO 2 years ago
Wow smart pilot. Having engine troubles on 2 so brings 2 to idle, then decides to bring throttle of all engines back to idle, before then re-advancing throttle on 1 2 and 4, essentially attempting to land on 2 engines (2 is already fuct, and now 3 is on idle) Congratulations USAF.
spacemanspiff33 2 years ago
The pilots were reserves and they had new intsurments put in that made everything digital. they were use to seeing dials and gauges helping them with their flying and they were learning how to use them.
Blast009 2 years ago
@Blast009 No excuse, they are still fail pilots
spacemanspiff33 2 years ago
@spacemanspiff33 I wasn't saying that it wasn't the pilots' fault. I was saying, that since the pilots were new to this. They should of asked for more training. They also have procedurce go follow for encase somethign like that were to happen and they didn't even do that.
Blast009 2 years ago
@spacemanspiff33 So cause of a pilot's error its the entire USAF's fault?
storm92jk 2 years ago
@storm92jk There was more than 1 pilot in that plane, and the error was a rather simple error, I place a large chunk of the blame on the USAF and its shitty training for that one.
spacemanspiff33 2 years ago
What has the U.S.A.F. got to do with this?
It is simple Human error. Speaking as an Ex. Stand-Eval. both on this Airframe and in the A.F. It IS ALL too easy to Monday morning Quarterback these situations.
ancientastronomer 2 years ago 2
Best line ever from a flight crew member: 1:58 "I don't even know where we are".
pyrolorde 2 years ago 9
@pyrolorde you never want to hear that from anyone on the crew.
umahuma4 1 year ago
@pyrolorde Second best line followed soon after: "GUYS, I'M CONCERNED."
pryan37bb 1 year ago
@pyrolorde LMAO good catch.
gbalciutegmail 1 year ago
did this plane crash happen in april 4, or april 3 and did it crash in 1975 or 2006?
ttccats 2 years ago 2
2006
pklute63 2 years ago
It happened a couple yrs ago forget the yr but 2006 sounds right.
highsteel240 2 years ago
#2 eng had a problem so the throttle was returned to idle during flt. the pilot accidentally swapped #2 with #3 @ 43 seconds causing both inbd engines to power @ idle, @ 50 seconds flaps were extended down f/e and pilot could not figure out y plane was rapidly decending (outbd engines couldnt produce enough thrust 2 keep a 250000 lb plane flying ) until it was to late so the pilot crashed into a field to save lives... pilot error
TheCoogie1985 2 years ago
The C-5 empty weighs 365000 pounds...this one was fully loaded with gas and cargo...way more than 250000lbs
pklute63 2 years ago 2
@pklute63
lol.. you messed up on a decimal...
I am not sure, but footage of it did not look like it had 250k in cargo. however, it would be nice to see the loadplan. Just a guess, it was around 800-840,000lbs ramp weight.. that is the usual average if it was making a haul. At least, that was the average I used to load plan. We did hit a hair under 900,000 one time in my carrer.
PaganEgyptian 1 year ago
between 2:34 and 2:35 u can here someone saying, ``oh shit !``
SindreAHN 2 years ago
The pucker factor at that point was VERY high!
pklute63 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
this plane C-5 need to add 6 powerful jets than 4 jets
bestamerica 2 years ago
@bestamerica Not so. As a matter of fact, the TF-39s the Airframe came equipped with were considered as 20% OVER-Powered. Two more Engines would have greatly increased Wing-Stress factors while sitting on the Ground. Not to mention, a greatly increased fuel-burn-rate. And then there are always the hidden costs of two more engines to Maintain and potentially break down. Sometimes, Less = More. Or, the reciprocal, More = Less.
ancientastronomer 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Dear All,
I have some questions about psychology:
(1) Why do we enjoy flying "Flight Simulator"?
(2) What does make us to play Flight Simulator over and over again?
(3) What is the fun to flying in a way that can only be accomplish in "Flight Simulator"? (eg. landing a C5 on a carrier on the sea)
(4) if Flight Simulator allow us to choose your desired jet engines, will this be fun for players?
THANK YOU IN ADVANCE for your creative ideas and brainstorm!!! :)
applesweeter 2 years ago
this isn't flight sim, please post this comment on a video that involves flight sim.
WSPSkydiver 2 years ago
No one has a clue on this post. I was one of the Engineers on this incident. I'd like to write a book on how and why this hapened. Anyone want to help? You people have NO clue. I currently have foot drop (broke my back). Had 19 years in. Great way to end a career.
cfredflyu 2 years ago 3
Not true...I had 22 years on the aircraft and the last 5 as an engineer...I'll help you write it.
pklute63 2 years ago
If you really were the flight engineer, I'd love to hear more about what happened.
WSPSkydiver 2 years ago
Yes, I WAS the Engineer
cfredflyu 2 years ago
Did they survive?
JoeBradshaw123456 2 years ago
Yes
pklute63 2 years ago
are all the crew flying again???...if you crash, is that the end of your career???
jjjazzycraig 2 years ago
The copilot the engineer and the PIC should have caught this! Slow and low, bad config, AMP, heads need to be up and jump seater should be doing the final config check on final!
cdog301 2 years ago 2
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cfredflyu 2 years ago
Have 3500 Hours as C5 FE and everybody is to blame your instructor should have been looking up front as well since there was no sterile cockpit below 10 everybody running their mouths! As for the tired from show time we fly like that all the time really welcome to fred oh fly Amp as well!
cdog301 2 years ago
Most of the comments posted are redundant.....are you folks too lazy to go back to the first post and quickly zero in on the guys who post with creditability?
35slantback 2 years ago 5
I saw the wreckage about 30 min after the plane hit ground before dover airforce base blocked everyone from seeing anything. The nose did come off and the tail seemed to be in a single piece! That was the most weird thing i noticed was that the tail was all intact and disconnected from the plane.
drewmitch44 2 years ago 2
It's designed to break away to disipate energy
pklute63 2 years ago
the c5 was actually designed that way the plane came apart exactly how it was suppose to kinda cool really...
TheCoogie1985 2 years ago
Never got why the Engineer let a good motor get pulled back and the bad one get pushed forward....
D15C1PLE 2 years ago
Pilots handle the throttles but engineers should have noticed.
pklute63 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Isn't it obvious? Those 2 flight engineers were stupid and they let this crap happen. They were asleep, not paying attention, being stupid---they let this happen! They are damned lucky they are not stone dead. IDIOTS! The taxpayer and vets HATE YOU!
IdolHans 2 years ago
The ultimate responsibility is on the aircraft commander.
pklute63 2 years ago
This statement is directed solely @ IdolHans.
I am speaking as a retired U.S.A.F Stand-Eval. Training Instructor on the C-5A/B with over 25,000 Hrs. on this particular Airframe.
Why don't you take an Aeronautical Intercourse through an Aspherical Pastry.
ancientastronomer 2 years ago 6
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Relax StanEvaul douchebag---I got lots of idiots like you busted for being stupid---something that you are doing again!
IdolHans 2 years ago
I repeat,( While Shaking in my Boots ).
Why don't you take an Aeronautical Intercourse through an Aspherical Pastry.....
( Still shaking in my Boots )
ancientastronomer 2 years ago 3
This comment has received too many negative votes show
The reserves at Dover suck and the accidents THEY cause prove it.
IdolHans 2 years ago
....and again, I repeat. Physical proof that an Ass really can speak...........
ancientastronomer 2 years ago 3
Why the hate? Just make your point without personal attacks. Happy Flying.
ljackso 2 years ago
@ancientastronomer
Hats off to you. I know for a fact you guys are the best of the best. Its saddening at some of the comments, as the C5 was my favorite airframe, C-141 being second. I have a lot of head scratching on this information. Too bad I cant get more detailed information. Do you think this mishap would have occurred with the new more powerful engines? I love the sound of the TF-39's but I always felt they lacked the power needed.....Thrust to weight ratio as compared to others.
PaganEgyptian 1 year ago
@PaganEgyptian Hmmmm. An Excellent Question. First, Thank-you for your complimentary comment. It is difficult to say if this incident could/would have been avoided assuming all the Factors were equivilent. For starters, the AC allowed the Airframe to get beneath the glideslope while on approach, and inside the Middle Marker. As an Instructor, my immediate
reaction would have been Missed-Approach-Cklist./ Go-Around.
ancientastronomer 1 year ago 2
@ancientastronomer @ PaganEgyptian Instead, the AC remains below the glideslope, initiates a right-Roll and begins to Decrease Eng. Thrust and Flaps to 90% prior to coming out of Roll? Why? It is obvious that he is attempting to Re-Intercept the Glideslope, but. Flaps @ 90% with Gear Extended, Minus One Eng.(Actually Two) while beneath Glideslope and
pulling Pwr.Off Prior to coming out of Roll? Based SOLELY upon this info. Pilot Error.
ancientastronomer 1 year ago 4
@ancientastronomer @ PaganEgyptian Finally, when all is said and done.
Your original question to me was did I think that this incident could/would
have been avoided with the New M-Model Eng.s? Probably not. My reasoning is based on the information available. Had he initiated a Missed-Approach/Go-around, Sucked the Gear, and shoveled the Coal to it to gain
precious altitude. He probably could have been SAFELY on the ground 15
Minutes Later.
ancientastronomer 1 year ago 2
@ancientastronomer @ PaganEgyptian If I had to wager Money on this
incident. My bet would be on an exhausted Flt.Crew. All the Horsepower
in the world could'nt have fixed that. NOTE: A few Yrs. back a study was
done regarding Vehicle accidents involving "Tired" drivers. A VERY Interesting discovery was that, a "Tired" Drivers re-actions or lack thereof,
were IDENTICAL to those of a Drunk-driver. No Difference. This may very
well be an important factor within this particular incident.
ancientastronomer 1 year ago 2
@ancientastronomer It was blatantly pilot error. The actuation of a dead engine (#2) instead of the running engine (#3) contributed to their low airspeed. This was exacerbated by pulling too much flaps for an engine failure approach.
li7in6 1 year ago
@li7in6 I will take your youth and inexperience into account with this
responce regarding YOUR use of the expression,"Blatantly". As I stated
in an earlier comment. "It is Far too easy to Monday Morning Quarterback
a situation such as this". And, If you will CAREFULLY R E A D my 4 Paragraph comment above, Para.# 2 CLEARLY Identifies everything you
state.
ancientastronomer 1 year ago 2
@ancientastronomer Congratulations on exposing yourself as a grade-A jackass with your asinine internet jabs. Anyway, of coarse you can make the 'hidsight is 20/20' calls about a crash such as this. That is the entire reason for black box recording. To find out what went wrong and what the flight crew did wrong so it may be corrected in the future. Regardless of the stress or the situation, critical mistakes were made by the f/c that led to the loss of the aircraft, thus pilot error, as i said.
li7in6 1 year ago
@li7in6 ....and a return congratulatory remark on exposing yourself as an
ignorant, inexperienced Tail attempting to wag the dog NON-Aviation expert
of which YOU have proven twice-over now. There IS NO SUCH THING as
"regardless of:" In an Emer. Situation such as this. "Stress" AND the
"Situation" ARE of prime importance AND compliment CVR and B/B Data.
YOUR YOUTH AND INEXPERIENCE are exposed by YOUR oversimplification of an extremely complex & Stressful situation.
ancientastronomer 1 year ago 2
@ancientastronomer Dearest stereotypical shit-talking youtube jackass,
Stress does not excuse pilot error. As a pilot you are trained to follow procedures intended to preserve the safety of your crew, your cargo, and your aircraft. Clearly this F/C deviated from those procedures and made serious and glaring mistakes due to lack of communication and awareness. This led to the loss of a $160 million dollar aircraft, its cargo, and serious injury or members of the F/C.
li7in6 1 year ago
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ancientastronomer 1 year ago
@ancientastronomer Stress, fatigue, nor emergency situations do not excuse a pilot or his crew from their duties, explain maybe, but not excuse. You're over complication of a simple pilot error accident has simply proven you lack of objectivity in the subject. Now please, shoot back with another one of you're ill thought out, juvenile rebuttals. I simply cannot wait to read it.
li7in6 1 year ago
@li7in6 ALSO, NEVER ONCE did I say that Stress or Fatigue excused
anything. ( Further proof of YOUR extreme lack of comprehensive skill ).
I said," Stress AND Fatigue WERE factors " to be taken into account along
with CVR and B/B Data. Meanwhile. Please endeavor to take an aeronautical Intercourse through a rotational aspherical Pastry.
ancientastronomer 1 year ago 2