Suffering and Christianity

[ThePuppyTurtle]

Real Christians Believe Man is Evil and Inflicts suffering on Man

[Atheistblindchick]

@ThePuppyTurtle So, what about the suffering not caused by man, but by natural disasters, accidents, illness?

[ThePuppyTurtle]

@Atheistblindchick Illness can be traced back to Original sin. Accidents are often the result of Carelessness on the part of either 1 or more of the victims, of a 3ed party. And Natural disasters can be traced back to the flood. which man was involved in making necessary.

[MegaMileyfan97]

The Christian faith is full of examples where Christians are encouraged to prove themselves to god. The idea that if you sacrifice for god, that you'll be saved forever. Fear of death yes, but if you suffer a little bit, to prove your worth... Take lent: common Christian practice to give up something you enjoy to show your love for god. I know I love my girlfriend, I think I'll ask her to give up chocolate for me. Sound a little bit selfish?

[DeathofSpeech]

You are one of the genuinely beautiful people of this world. Thank you.

[DarkDDexter]

I think the attitude comes from a deep desire to make suffering meaningful. After all, something becomes infinitely more bearable when it has meaning, and purpose. Even if the purpose can't be known, reasoned or felt, merely believing that there is a purpose, can ease the psychological effects of suffering.

The phrases "my faith is my shield" and the "the full armour of god" can have some truth, if only because of the power of belief, that is holding onto meaning in meaningless suffering.

[Pushtrak]

@DarkDDexter Very well said. I was going to say something just like that myself.

It isn't like you get a person and add suffering and you get the same thing every time. Some people will grow through it. Some will just get bitter, and there are all other forms of response in between.

[HaleyMary]

Well said. :) There are so many stories in the bible of war and sacrifice that sometimes I find it hard to see where they (Christians) see any goodness in the religion. You make a good point that suffering doesn't help people feel good about life. If anything, it tends to make people feel miserable.

[happysplodie]

The Christian faith is full of examples where Christians are encouraged to prove themselves to god. The idea that if you sacrifice for god, that you'll be saved forever.  Fear of death yes, but if you suffer a little bit, to prove your worth... Take lent: common Christian practice to give up something you enjoy to show your love for god. I know I love my girlfriend, I think I'll ask her to give up chocolate for me. Sound a little bit selfish?

[purpleguy319]

Suffering is an Experience. All Experiences teach us something. As such All Experience are important. Suffer however is horrible. As an Experience it is important, but it is not to be relished. Simple, Right?

[Atheistblindchick]

not really... What about those people who suffer and die? What is so important about their experience?

[purpleguy319]

You have to be a sensate to understand.

[Atheistblindchick]

A sensate? Are you telling me I don't feel?

Perhaps you should try it some time?

OK, I take that back, but I don't believe you truly understand what suffering does to a dying person... It's not an experience, they don't learn anything...

[purpleguy319]

"A sensate? Are you telling me I don't feel?

Perhaps you should try it some time?"

No, no you have it all wrong ABC. Sorry that i didn't explain it better. Thing is you can't explain it in 500 characters.

Basically its a philosophy.

Also i don't think people should suffer, that's just bad. However if you have suffered, learn more about yourself though your experience.

Hope this clears up any misunderstanding, terribly sorry, I don't want any bad blood between.

[purpleguy319]

Also you reading lady-thing probably can't pronounce Sensate.

[Atheistblindchick]

She does just fine with sensate LOL

Thanks for clearing that up, no hard feelings, OK?

Still, you didn't answer my question, what is there to learn for those who do not live to tell?

[purpleguy319]

Note i'm not a christian. I'm an Atheist and a Sensate (a life ideology). I not answering your "why do chirstian like suffering" question cause i'm not one. I'm just throwing my views of suffering into the ring.

If your suffering learn from it and try to better you life. If you suffer then die, well the world is a cruel terrible place and atleast your not suffering anymore.

[blacteria]

that doesnt kill you will only make you stronger...

keep that in mind.

[Atheistblindchick]

Not true, honestly... There's plenty of people who do not become stronger through suffering...

[blacteria]

i could use the same argument against you.

there are plenty of people who DO become stronger through suffering.

[alblahblah]

Great video again!! I will only add that suffering can perhaps only be positive when it comes to art. Anyone who can appreciate Beethovens Late string quartets would, I presume, agree and "apreciate" the suffering that stirred him to write them.

Thanks for making my brain hurt again.

[Atheistblindchick]

You're welcome, Al...

Yeah, I understand that certain kinds of suffering can be turned into something beautiful... However, we might enjoy the end result, I doubt that the sufferer did... Just look at Vincent van Gogh...

[happyHominid]

The most high thinking members of our species spent their lives engaged in work that would alleviate suffering. Yet here we are in 2008 and a majority of people find some sort of redeemable aspect to suffering? It tells you all you need to know about religion. Only believers in some non-existent life after this one could possibly entertain such thoughts.

[JennyBray]

Atheistblindchick, I agree with many views expressed in your video, however, these views do not negate my personal experiences of humility through suffering. Suffering is a horrible teacher but it does teach and transform people. The question is how we decide to change and respond to it. Will the suffering lead me to become a better person who is more empathetic to the needs of others or will I become more distant and cold?

[JennyBray]

Also, there's a lot of different ways to react to pain itself (avoidance, hyperviligance, aggressive, repressive, denying, dissociative, and etc.). I think when suffering is long lived and not avoided, it inherently changes you whether you want it to or not. The process isn't beautiful, but the person that might become may be quite beautiful.

[Atheistblindchick]

Thanks for your insight, and I hope that your suffering is over. I do understand how it changes people, either for the better or the worse, if they live through it...

But what if there isn't an after... For a lot of people, there is suffering and then death... No lessons to be learned...

To be honest, there are better ways to learn how to have empathy...

[JennyBray]

Atheistblindchick, yes there are many types of pain. For the pain that causes immediate death, I am unable to comment about. However, for the pain that takes a while before it takes the life, I have some opinions about. I witnessed a loved one suffer from a terminal illness. The point where he ceased displaying his personality and just lay there suffering that probably didn't teach him a damn thing but unfortunately he wasn't over it yet. But watching him die affected me tremendously.

[bluebeard2]

I will torture you. Humiliate you. Dominate you. Hurt you.

You will become beautiful.

[brabon]

abc...honestly, you could post a vid of you reading the phone book, and i would listen...i love your accent

[Denamic]

What I got from my past suffering was nothing but self loathing, cynicism, loss of empathy and hate in general.

I've mostly gotten over that now though.

Mostly, but not completely. I still have difficulties with trust and with respecting people. The default amount of respect I have for people is very low. They have to earn it somehow. It's nothing I can do anything about. Even if I'm aware of it, I just can't respect people for no reason.

Suffering is overrated.

[thatgaybloke]

A "bad perception" of suffering - I'd be grateful if someone could explain to me how suffering is good. The only people who find suffering good are masochists or sadists. Neither of which are considered to be particularly healthy mental states. I find it difficult to see how there is anything positive in harm and cruelty? The only positive thing about suffering I can see is the same as the old joke "Q: What's the best thing about banging your head on a wall? A: It feels so good when you stop."

[thatgaybloke]

I think your conclusion that the christian love of suffering reveals a lack of respect for human life is near the mark, but I would take it one step forward. Seeing suffering as a positive thing means that you don't have to do anything to alleviate it - now that, it truly monstrous.

[DeletedDelusion]

This was an excellent video.

Why haven't I subed to you before?

[kalsolarUK]

Great post, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I just hope the nail is not in too much pain. I would hate it to suffer. lol. Very insightful video, thanks!

[mconn2112]

Great perspective! I saw Passion of the Christ while traveling on business. I was working in my hotel room and had no intention of watching it, but something urged me to do so. I am not queasy or easily upset or disturbed, but that movie was disturbing, specifically the message it carried and effect it had on Chrisitans. The fact that they came out of it appreciating the brutality and violence in it.

[martyhoff]

Atheist's suffer all the time. They suffer the ignorance of christians!

[GoMetricToday]

Suffering is not a good thing. Loosing my partner of 10 years was no cake walk. Loosing my father was no cake walk. Having a debilitating illness that is going to eventually kill me is no cake walk. Suffering isn't good. I say that I am a kind person and compassionate person in spite of suffering.

[Atheistblindchick]

Suffering can make a person bitter... I'm really glad that you have not allowed it to do so :)

[Fataalex]

Also it is a concept, which comes out of the ancient times, when you do not have the power to do anything against your suffering or against that of others, you tend to twist the fact that you're powerless into a virtue, and so suffering becomes noble, a concept which should bring you closer to your so called god. Take that a bit further and you come up that suffering is a pretext to obtaining holiness, and is one of the prime virtues as it is with christ and saints and alot of other holy things

[Atheistblindchick]

Thanks for that insight!

[jkeaty2]

awesome 5/5, bravo.

Loves from the US baby

owoooooo!

[Atheistblindchick]

:)

Thanks

[Fataalex]

Suffering is an experience just like everything else , and you should learn from it, I think that is the message which is tried to get across. But there is also suffering without a meaningfull cuase, natural disasters, sickness and other permanent things. I think suffering only serves a purpose when the responsability solely rests with you and only you are affected by it. but then we usually call it cuase and consequence.

[Atheistblindchick]

This is assuming that there is an after... Often that is not the case...

[therealeeeo]

You're so well spoken. Kudos.

[CadicusTheDamned]

You're welcome.

ABC is actually pretty thoughtful and interesting. You ought to browse her archives.

The best part is that you can type comments while you listen. It's all audio.

Well, except for the one video when she shows her sexy and lithe back...

[thinkmorepink]

lol Cadicus, you're so sly. I agree wholeheartedly. ABC is one of my favorite youtubers.

[NLPNVC]

My experience of suffering had the affect of being liberating. The only power I had I found within the acceptance of my vulnerability. What else could I do the entire world could see rite through me. It was as humbling as it was humiliating. When there was nothing left of me to fight with my desperation gave way to surrender. If this was a thing of beauty it's beauty was hidden from me at the time. I would not change that time in my life and I hope I never go through it again...

[Atheistblindchick]

I hope you never have to either.

I have experienced pain and extreme discomfort in my life, but I hesitate to actually call this suffering...

[GrenadineYankee]

I hate it when people refer to works by C. S. Lewis, one of the worst writers in modern human history...

Otherwise, excellent audio commentary.

[lothrazar]

christianity is not the only religion that gets a fat hard one from suffering, guilt, pain, and refraining from happiness and pleasure. Take bhuddism for example.

[Baszottbivaly]

that's buddhism, and really. have you even bothered to take a look at it's teachings?

[Atheistblindchick]

I disagree, suffering in Buddhism is something to be eliminated, not endured... Buddhism sees suffering as the biggest obstacle to reaching enlightenment...

[CadicusTheDamned]

She has a reading program. Search her archives and you'll find a video explaining how she uses YT.

[Matur1n]

The best discussion of suffering is found in C.S Lewis's "The Problem of Pain" and his book "A Grief Observed". If you are really interested in this topic, those are two very short books that cut right to the essence of the issues.

[On1onKn1ght]

C.S. Lewis isn't someone that a Christian should be proud to quote. His arguments for the existence of god are deeply flawed, and most laymen can debunk them with ease, yet to Christians he's revered as some sort of genius.

For example, "Mere Christianity" is a popular book that many Christians think proves their case, when in fact it does the opposite.

[Matur1n]

Well good, if you think that, then give copies of "Mere Christianity" to all your atheist friends if it proves the opposite case. Have you read C.S Lewis's "The Problem of Pain" or "A Grief Observed"? This video is focused on the issues he deals with in those books. Everyone I know who has read them thinks he does a great job covering the topics of grief, pain and hurt.

[CadicusTheDamned]

Mother Theresea was a big advocate of the propagation of misery and suffering. Despite the obvious problems that unchecked breeding caused in Calcutta, she opposed to birth control. Hitchens wrote a rather biting biography about her.

Great audio. Five stars.

I know you'll never turn your camera on, but I would like to see your face....

I guess we all have our unfulfuilled desires.

[Atheistblindchick]

You'll just have to suffer through that ;)

[Dadalama]

there's a strange masochism from Christianity...

[Atheistblindchick]

Just take a look at the Carmelites... They actually have rules against using the cat-o-nine-tails too much... Talk about getting off on pain...

[Dadalama]

lol kinkeh

[thelonius2000]

what is "REAL" suffering?

[Atheistblindchick]

Real suffering is real pain, not something that is temporary and can be alleviated with a little pill... People can actually die of pain, and this kind of suffering, I would consider real suffering...

Having a bad day is not...

[DehumanizeTV]

lame, apparently you dont know ABC, check her page out she did a video answering such question...

[NermalsChannel]

With christian logic, you can justify anything. If they think their god wants it, it's the right thing to do. It's as if some of them never developed a sense of morality, and are then dependand on their bible to tell them what's right an wrong.

[rowsdowersavesus]

There can be some beauty in suffering, if it's suffering for an actual purpose, though there's ugliness in that suffering as well. For example, if a friend was running from an evil group that wished to torment him, you helped him escape, knowing that in the process you'd be caught, tortured and killed, it's a beautiful thing you did for your friend, yet an ugly act by the bad guys. If Jesus did die for our sins, it's like that. But he didn't, so that one's ugly all around, like most suffering

[Atheistblindchick]

So true... Maybe it could be considered "beautiful" if one chooses to suffer...

Willingness to submit oneself to suffering to help another might be beautiful, the suffering itself is not though...

[rowsdowersavesus]

Exactly. Far too many people falsely attribute the beauty of a particular kind of suffering to suffering in general. It's easy to do, but a bad thing

[thinkmorepink]

Wow, fantastic video. Yours keep getting better and better.

[Atheistblindchick]

that means a lot coming from you :)

[thinkmorepink]

I mean it. I really really really do. I really look up to you :)

Keep being wonderful.

[Atheistblindchick]

*blush*

stop it, you're embarrassing me...

And you're one of my faves, just so you know, I love your sincere creativity!

[Katalyzt]

Well said! ★★★★★

P.S.

The "passion of the christ" movie was a snuff film.

Katalyzt

[Atheistblindchick]

Yup...

But to tell you the truth, the main reason I didn't see it was because my bf wasn't keen on reading the subtitles to me...

[maurieer]

Great video.

I remember as a young lad in catholic school, the nuns stating that suffering and pain should be offered up for one`s sins.

This is one of the reasons that started me on my way to becoming an atheist. At that point, i started to think for myself because a loving god would never demand this kind of nonsense.

[Atheistblindchick]

I think it's a common theme in Catholic schools... I have the same experience...

[samsroomie]

In most of the world, for most of history, life has been "nasty, brutish, and short." Any successful religion needs to have some explanation for suffering. Suffering may draw people desperate for meaning "closer to god", but it doesn't make god real.

[jollychris1010101]

Good video with intelligent points. I think part of the reason christians like suffering is because "sins" are enjoyable so to be good you must do the opposite.

[sapperbloggs]

One can learn from suffering. It's called conditioning. It's not religious, dogs do it too.

Knowing what is bad, makes you appreciate the good. 10 years in the army taught me this. Does it give kindness or humility? No. It teaches you to avoid suffering, and to enjoy distractions from it.

It does not make you 'closer to god'. No. All it does is condition you through experience.

Suffering is a (mainly catholic) way in which they can turn what is common into what is religious

[Atheistblindchick]

Pavlov's dog...

[sapperbloggs]

Bet you can't guess what I've been studying at uni...

Though Pavlov dealt with a trigger as a pre-cursor to a reward, people (and dogs) like good things (rewards) and dislike bad things (punishments, suffering). The basics aren't any different for a prolonged punishment. It doesn't make you a better person exept if you learn from it, and it doesn't make you more religious except if you choose religion as your method of dealing with it.

[SeenAndNotSeen]

Next time a Christian tells you suffering is a blessing, remind him that Jesus's miracles didn't include crippling an able-bodied man, or blinding a sighted man, or starving the five thousand. I think one reason Christians believe suffering is good is because the world is full of it, and God allows it, so it must have an upside.

[Atheistblindchick]

I'll keep that in mind... Wonder how they'll respond...

[DefaultPosition]

I'd punch the idiot in the head. Once he'd regained consciousness he could thank me and explain how much closer to god he now felt.

I'd then explain to him that if he didn't stop talking condescending ignorant fanciful crap I'd assist him in feeling even closer to god.

PS: Mother Theresa died an atheist - death bed confession.

[DefaultPosition]

I was ill for years and couldn't speak for the first year. There is nothing glorious in illness or suffering, its a waste of time and energy and to be avoided.

15 years after the beginning of my illness I'm still recovering, there's absolutely no glory in it, I've gained nothing from it.

I agree that many Christians do not value human life, they humans as sheep for the lord. Many many theists are massively hypocritical.

[Atheistblindchick]

About Mother Teresa, I know... The only thing that comes to mind regarding that is, "How typical"...

And thank you for your perspective, you're right, it's to be avoided...

[Falloutmoon]

There is no beauty with suffering.

There can be beauty in easing suffering but not in pain itself.

[LuCaro22]

I think it is just too difficult for some people to live in a world where there is such suffering, and at the same time cling to a belief in god. In some ways it has to be beneficial to them, simply as a way to excuse their "father" for allowing it in the first place.

[Atheistblindchick]

If god allows it, it must be good...

[monicavm]

I am not a Christian so I cannot answer your question. However, your post was wonderful and spoke clearly and plainly. It said exactly what I feel myself. Thank you.

[Atheistblindchick]

You're welcome

[cozmikzen]

i think u hit it dead on, even if they wont realize it. i remember seeing passion of the christ when i was christian, & it moved me. now, i dont think they beat him nearly enough. they shoulda dragged hisass around behind a chariot for a bit. he died for all man's sins, but only suffered 3 days...it'sa total case of nepotism. it's one of the reasons i still celebrate good friday, but not easter. It's the BEST friday.

[Atheistblindchick]

You're so cruel ;)

[Danmill23]

ABC suffering is ugly. It comes with lots of hidden extras, loss of dignity notably amongst them. Pain is for helping stupid animals find out what dammages their body and to encourage them to avoid it in future. That is it's purpose.

The passion of the christ was horrible. Imagine a red christ. Sticky with muck and blood. With nice close up shots of him getting whipped, ripped and punctured. All the while moaning, yelping and screaming. I chose not to watch the extreme bits.

[Atheistblindchick]

I chose not to watch the whole film...

[rozeboosje]

I have nothing but respect for someone who can turn their suffering around and grow out of it. But that is no reason to go looking for it or to idolise it. And you're right, those who yabber on like that typically do so out of the comfort of a wealthy life in which they don't need to seriously worry about anything. And one cannot help but think: why don't they choose to lead by example?

[DaveJonesBSNews]

They might say that they are suffering their lack of suffering.

[rozeboosje]

LOL. Oh the humanity!

[Atheistblindchick]

Only when you really don't know what it is to really suffer can you say that it's beautiful, I think...

And christians usually don't lead by example...