Antinatalism Is A Code Word For Blah Blah Blah Blah Blaaaaaahhhh

[melvonstar]

That Cunt @Coughlan000 Stole ur line!!!... Stop Fuckin Whining And Do Something About It.... U Boring Cunts!!!!

[Wethewax]

@gabiotta All antinatalism is, is a group of emotionally disconnected individuals trying to find justification for their misanthropy.

The only danger from antinatalism is that it will actually become thought of as having any objective merit amongst the wider population.

Thankfully though the main spokes-people for the movement on Youtube are a bunch of trolls and bullies who can't help but make everything they say sound abhorrent, so I think we're safe.

[Wethewax]

@gabiotta I don't think they are just playing a game on the internet, because people still did this shit before there was an internet.

What they are actually doing is attempting to establish a moral framework in which their selfishness, indifference, lack of compassion/empathy/motivation to help, and even in extreme cases sociopathy, is not only acceptable but actually morally correct.

(continues)

[d0llsnatch]

Antinatalism is the new (old) "Child Free." Sounds more high brow and less cunty. *sniff sniff* " Well IIIIII want to end suffering!" STFU faux fucking intellectual bastards.

[geffel]

I for one found this light hearted video fun, entertaining and uplifting.

[gabiotta]

@geffel

I am glad to hear it. I does seem to have made a few people rather grumpy. :)

[Salment]

This planet needed to implement a world wide one child policey decades ago. Wont happen until its too late though. But i wont have children simply because i can be sure the world the will live in will be a good one. As a species we should go for quality of life not quantity. With a small population they could live good lives and notdestroy he enviroment. But the earth cant handle 10, 15 billion people all wanting to have the latest shit.

[moopism]

Isn't antinatalism at heart the same argument we threw at our parents at the onset of adolescence, i.e., "I didn't ask to be born", usually employed when we didn't get our way?

[gabiotta]

@moopism

Absolutely. Since making this I have been met with nothing but teenage foot stamping and slammed doors. :)

[IdaMiaDot]

@gabiotta Indeed. The conversation has been usurped by the mighty banner of angst-ridden foot-stamping.

And just stupidity in general. It ends at a concession of the impracticality of the whole thing, anyway.

[moopism]

@IdaMiaDot "It ends at a concession of the impracticality of the whole thing, anyway."

Yeah, that imperative need to continue the species and all tends to trump bullshit philosophy every time.

[gabiotta]

@IdaMiaDot

Has anybody actually made that concession? When I have raised that point there has been an awful lot of whistling and looking the other way.

[IdaMiaDot]

@gabiotta Unfortunately a gradual degradation into crazy babbling has arrived in place of the concession.

[moopism]

@gabiotta I mean, I could have sympathy for someone saying, "I'd be a rotten parent and/or I have rotten genes (generational alcoholism,etc.), therefore I'll do the world a favor and not breed.", but that at it's heart supposes that future generations deserve a better existence, and I take responsibility to make that happen.

Antinatalism is just an extension of nihilism, and who, outside of an adolescent goth kid or a sociopath, is a nihilist?

"I'm special because I hate you all". Uhg..

[sugelanren]

I posted a second video for CHASCHARLTON which was a little more serious. Just thought i'd do some barefaced advertising of my own shit...*walks away*

[f417h2GRACE]

noone knows what it is to be like me=agreed

ill take the double decker truck over going to fuck and back :)(:

thnx for reminders, as always.

[gabiotta]

@f417h2GRACE

Only a handful of the most talented writers have ever managed to make me fell like I even had an inkling of what they felt. Beyond very broad brush stokes.

What chance have the rest of us got?

=o)

[filrabat]

Pleasures are good only for existent people. Non-existent people don't need pleasures. Bringing kids into this world so they'll experience the wonders of life is like saying we should breed more puppies so they can eat puppy food (and latter dog food), or even experiencing the love of their owners. Even worse, procreation is tantamount to forcing people into playing a game (life) whose UNALTERABLE rules (parameters, rules, and real-world circumstances) they may find profoundly appalling.

[gabiotta]

@filrabat

That presupposes that the statement I was disagreeing with is correct.

[filrabat]

Get out and do something to alleviate suffering. I volunteer at a food bank, and I've volunteered for the Salvation Army in the past, so I don't need coaching from you on that matter. The argument REALLY is (1) non-existent people don't need good things, nor can they suffer bad things (2) even existing ppl w/ good lives have some bad in it. (3) Non-existence is better than existence (and don't tell me to off myself. That's been adequately answered MANY times on YT, incl by ME).

[filrabat]

@filrabat

But if you have to know, here it is. Suicide causes our family and friends to suffer. Therefore any call for suicide (not by you, yet. but for other antiAN's on here) imply we ought not give a damn about how our suicide would affect others. Also, most suicide attempts fail, often leaving the committer worse off than before. Thridly, contrary to popular belief, suicide is actually very hard to commit, given even AN's are born with a strong "survival instinct" bias.

[gabiotta]

@filrabat

I was not going to tell you to kill yourself.

The gaping hole in this argument for me is your third point. "Non existence is better than existence."

That has not been adequately demonstrated, it goes against my personal experience (this despite being a depressive with severe physical problems) and against my experience of the world (including stints as a charity worker in several parts of the developing world).

(cont)

[gabiotta]

@gabiotta

I keep on being told that it is a fact, and that you can get there through logic. Despite asking, no AN's have shown me that logical train.

It is a subjective position you seem to be taking and it is one that a number of you wish to impose on others by force.

Why do you all seem so surprised people think it is a disgusting proposition.

[filrabat]

@gabiotta

RE forcing: "I" don't seek to force others to my P.O.V., any more than the calmer and idealistic factions of atheists and believers alike seek to force others to their point of view. Ditto for political points of view (yes, there are rude, even rabid jackasses in ALL p.o.v's who seek to force, but that's a problem of their own personality - not the philosophy/ ideology/position they represent).

[gabiotta]

Respond to this video...

If you are not one of those people then I have no problem with you. This video was directed at the extremists and the trolls that have attached themselves to them.

[filrabat]

@gabiotta

As for "disgusting", lots of things we accept today were disgusting at one time. Religious heresy, atheism, science over church dogma, socio-ethno-religious equality, gay rights, women in positions of authority, divorce, out of birth wedlocks, etc. Disgust =/= wrong

[gabiotta]

@filrabat

You are not talking about changing modes of behaviour. The things you list are practices that people carried out anyway, but were considered wrong.

You are talking about expecting a 180 turn in one of the most primal instincts people have. Those things are peripheral.

To end procreation is more akin to asking humanity to give up making eye contact, or socialising. It is basic behaviour of humanity, not some social more.

[dprfail]

gabiotta, i'm not piking out on my antinatalism stance, i'm just adding some perspective, so you don't get me wrong... i have no doubt you're a great father and i wish your daughter the best possible life. cheers

(and don't strawman antinatalism)

[gabiotta]

@dprfail

Crikey, what a big embarrassing resentment shit you just took., but I appreciate you wiping up the poop with the apology. Thx.

[dprfail]

the only reason you resent maggie thatcher is because you're depressed, because you're miserable, because you don't have a meaningful life... you need to bring in another innocent victim, er, child, yeah, that's the ticket... pile 'em up high... 7 billion bundle of joy and counting... there's always room for one more... imagine no one alive to observe the universe... awww, antinatalist make universe sad

[dprfail]

i'm going to have a kid to, um, get a job, to, um, look at a painting, to be happy, to get run over, to get cancer, for me to take the kid to a hospital and buy it birthday presents, yay... you dumb cunt!

[gabiotta]

@dprfail

That isn't much of a plan, If I were you I shouldn't breed.

Can trolls even have babies? I thought you cunts were inviable, like mules.

[dprfail]

@gabiotta cool story, bro

[gabiotta]

@dprfail

Wasn't it though?

[dprfail]

LMFAO!!

the king maggot speaks and all his maggot followers eagerly nod in agreement

answer me this, king maggot

what fucking soulless monster would have a kid knowing that global warming is a real possibility?

oh, and what is the purpose of life?

[Sheila1932]

I respect your channel and videos. You put your views brilliantly even if people don't agree with them. I know what you mean about people leaving offensive comments on your videos. Debates should be free of offensive language no matter how much you disagree. It might help if you stop saying f***ing c***s. I know we can't help it.

[bla34112]

The fuck is Antinatalism???

[gabiotta]

@bla34112

If you don't know then you are better of. It is just the rantings of a sociopathic shut in.

[Curas1]

Antinatalism is code for anti white...ah no wait, I think I got that mixed up with something else somehow

LMAO!

[htomerif]

So.. Two things you don't seem to understand: First, pain does not equal suffering ok? If you don't understand that fundamental point then you probably dont get what suffering is. Second, from a rational point of view no matter what you do, no matter how hard you work, you won't put a dent in human suffering. It may not be the case for you, but most people volunteer and help others to quench their own guilt, to give them a free pass not to have to empathize with others.

[gabiotta]

@htomerif

I don't say that pain and suffering are the same thing. Am I misunderstanding you? I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

Also, altruism = guilt. You say that but I don't buy it. I don't have a guilty conscience to appease and I don't think a lot of people do it for that reason. Perhaps there is a pleasure in gaining some self worth and that makes some charitable acts not entirely selfless. But so what?

[htomerif]

@gabiotta Ill try to clearly cover your second question. I've personally had a lot of issues with.. empathy I suppose with the suffering of a lot of people. I don't personally have the ability to make a significant difference in that collective suffering, but whenever Ive talked about this with people, the answer is always the same: "why dont you go volunteer at a homeless shelter or donate money, or whatever."

[htomerif]

@htomerif contd... It shows a complete lack of understanding on their part of why I, or people that feel similarly feel the way we do. Its as if we've been given a spoon and told if we feel bad about a ship sinking, why dont we start scooping. It seems a bit like a ridiculous response and, to me, illuminates that the motivation of most people for altruism is simply not wanting to be blamed for being part of the problem, not actual caring. Perhaps this will make my point a bit clearer.

[gabiotta]

@AirstripOneProle

Lol. That was excellent.

[gratex]

You

Evil

Monster

[gabiotta]

That;s right, paint me as the baddie. :)

[rozeboosje]

@gratex *sob*

You still haven't sung for me *sob*. Life truly IS suffering.

[lDrownded]

I loovvve your movies, especially "Shawn of the Dead". Yeah, that was a good one ;).

Me and the wife don't have kids because we don't want them. But I don't see the point of turning that into a philosophy. Disease and famine do their job by culling the herd automatically. They aren't just products of over-population, but also a sloution to it.

[gabiotta]

@lDrownded

Yeah, I liked that one. Not sure we got Hot Fuzz quite right, but you live and learn.

[ninjascroll6789]

@gabiotta what does glong mean?

[gabiotta]

@ninjascroll6789

Glom - to cling onto.

[ninjascroll6789]

@gabiotta do you like doner kebabs?

[gabiotta]

@ninjascroll6789

I am a vegan, so not so much.

[ninjascroll6789]

@gabiotta why are you a vegan?

[gabiotta]

@ninjascroll6789

Because I think it is important to keep the footprint that I leave as small as possible. It is a simple resource allocation issue. I don't drive a car either, same reason.

[ninjascroll6789]

@gabiotta i think you are a good bloke

[gabiotta]

@ninjascroll6789

Thanks. :)

[FantasmaBAnco]

I think if your end goal is to reduce human population humanely, then advocating for education of women in developing nations, and a comprehensive safe sex education from years 6-12 in the West would have more of an impact then whining in front of a computer.

The problem is that in a Darwinian sense, propagation of our genes is the reason why we're here; we'd be going against our most primal drive in promoting childlessness. It's a hard one, but it's the key to ending exponential growth : (

[FantasmaBAnco]

... continued...

Watch this vid to see one man's attempt at talking people out of their drive to reproduce:

/watch?v=J9Yn15X1_i8

Hilarious!

[gabiotta]

@FantasmaBAnco

Empowering women in the developing world is absolutely the most import step. Kerala is a shining example of how this can work.

Good to hear from you.

[WarblesOnALot]

@gabiotta G'day... Well said. I made a triptych of Clips, beginning 'Mad- Scientist Versus Anti-Namalists', asserting that AN-ism isn't any kind of Philosophy, it's Sub-Clinical Semi-Suicidal Depression. A Psychopathology, both Nhilistic & Necrophillic. My challenge is for any AN-ist to explain AN-ism to any Psychiatrist.... Nearly 3 weeks now, & not one has dared to try. I say they're Depressed, & using Projection for Ego-Defence.; & I don't share their Views !

[theRoseofmyheart]

I love when people "flip the bird" on camera

[IdaMiaDot]

@detttittchen The Abolitionist project is more feasible, in my opinion; because it is in accordance with mainstream ideals and research.

But it still requires disgusting ends justifies the means reasoning to end suffering. The collateral damage of the future will be utterly horrific; and you run a high risk of nuclear war.

[TheLaughingOut]

You can't claim that because someone is depressed they're in no position to judge. An antinatalist could just as easily say that you're happy and so you're in no position to judge. Besides, depressed people can be against antinatalism too. Are they in no position to judge as well?

Do you discount all philosophers who are depressed?

[gabiotta]

@TheLaughingOut

I am suggesting that their adherence to this ideology is a symptom of their disease. I suffer from depression, and I understand the nasty tar black thought processes that I can hear at the heart of this movement.

If there was an an analogous disease that made people cheerful, I wouldn't take the advice of sufferers if they were advocating dressing all the worlds children up as bumble bees.

[TheLaughingOut]

@gabiotta That's... a good point. :D

Mania! That's the analogous disease. Although they might have a point about the bumble bees thing.

[FantasmaBAnco]

@TheLaughingOut Is there any other kind? : )

People at the extremes of the "emotion spectrum" are looking at the world askew... I think I'd prefer to listen to someone who operates at the centre. But that's not generally the way it works here on Planet Naked Ape.

[gabiotta]

@FantasmaBAnco

Yep, the centre for policy, the extremes for rock n' roll..

[Buntzums]

only on YT would you wind up with a movement like this one getting press. Nice video.

[gabiotta]

@Buntzums

Thanks. 

[CHASCHARLTON]

you are a fucking moron, it was your video that was bla bla bla Blaaaaaahhhh

[gabiotta]

@CHASCHARLTON

I realise that you have problems, you toothless, Bella Emberg looking fuck, but your first contact needs to be a little more civil.

Understand, cunt?

:)

[CHASCHARLTON]

@gabiotta understand? hah you have no understanding at all, you are a, i am alright fuck you jack, you are a selfish bastard who has no answer to the Antinatalist argument so you resort to" bla bla bla Blaaaaaahhhh " if you have a counter argument to A-N lets here it, but i wont hold my breath, because you don't have one, you are a fuckin MORON a selfish one at that

[ImDed2]

you didn't even argue anything, you've taken your initial emotion of antinatalism and built off that with name calling ad homs, so by all means keep the finger,  you know what to do with it.

[gabiotta]

@ImDed2

Shall I use it to point the exit out to you?

[sWeepingsAnd]

This video is blah blah blahhhh, mired in incoherence and irrelevance.

[gabiotta]

@sWeepingsAnd

Rather fitting then.

[gabiotta]

@AcceptNoBullshit

It really is about a faction of fuckwits that i am concerned. Jaysoundar for example, or heroinchurch, but other more transient ones - oh and don't forget gary. You know, the crazies. :)

[gabiotta]

@AnonymousScreenOgler

Yeah, I have broken my personal rule of not talking about it. The first rule of sanity club is... do not talk about antinatalism... etc etc....

[gabiotta]

@ReignbowSmite

I have met some particularly alarm nutjobs today. My preconception have not been shattered, only reinforced. :)

[alaskafido]

I could not agree more with this video!

[sausage4mash]

this made me laugh ,better than arguing about religion though that horse has been flogged to death

[ourorboros2]

simply saying that people are too dumb to understand the argument or that people only support it to sound edgy and because they like the sound of their voice is merely a cop-out on your part.

so how about rather than prattling on, rather than sitting their feeling witty because you just insulted people why dont you help these people around the world? why dont you go for the runs and sit in beans as its your mentality thats supporting the growth that we cant handle

[nilbud]

@ourorboros2 Why don't you kill yourself? If your sad analysis is correct then why not apply your ridiculous solution to yourself first, eat your own dogfood as they say.

[ourorboros2]

@nilbud

ah, morons, so pleasant, im not arguing for euthanasia im arguing for birth control, my point on letting children die while sad is more or less necessary and in essence a kindness, why would you seek to prolong the life of a child living in conditions that are quite obviously abhorrent? not to mention this constant support of third world countries merely builds up a reliance on the west, making their entire culture reliant on us, its neo-imperialism if anything.

[phenixwryter]

@ourorboros2

What makes you more worthy to live? Because you are in a place where you have access to food and good care? So-people in countries who don't have food or good care, should simply die and...decrease the surplus population. Well, that's a hellava lazy solution to a serious problem. But don't worry, you probably won't run out of food yourself. So, enjoy those Cheesy Poofs while you pontificate on how its necessary for children to die-so you can live.

[gabiotta]

@ourorboros2

I do though. I am an activist for all sorts of causes, I give time to a homeless charity, I live a vegan life style. My house is a foster home for abused animals.

I am not just flapping my gums.

[ourorboros2]

@gabiotta

in that case good on you, too many people follow ideologies that they dont actually back up.

just as there are people who are antinatalist, as you said, purely for the want of being edgy so too are their more humanitarian people who simply follow it so they can feel good about themselves with out ever having done anything for it.

i do still think you mis-represented antinatalism, i'd actually never heard of the word before you vid so it could be my understand that is incorrect.

[ourorboros2]

@ourorboros2

your*

understanding*

[ourorboros2]

ofcourse if morons could figure out what a condom is for and realise that they dont need to have 50 little ankle bighters then we'd be fine, personally im not saying dont have kids and if you have a daughter then great! but when you start having stupid amounts it becomes silly, we could do with more people only having one child, it would lessen the population to a bearable size because at this rate we wont last long, we already cant cloth, house and feed everyone.

[ourorboros2]

you dont seem to completely understand it, the view point, atleast from my perspective, is not that there is suffering in the world hence having children is bad but rather than there is so much suffering in the world because of overpopulation, hence contributing to that is a bad thing,

if we raise money for charities and all the rest we're merely helping this, i know it sounds cruel and im sorry to say it but children need to die, we're at 7 billions people right now, we cant support that.

[nilbud]

@ourorboros2 Actually it's possible to support 30 billion using existing technology.

[phenixwryter]

@ourorboros2

Well, you could volunteer to die.  That would make it one less.

[ourorboros2]

@phenixwryter

as i said to the other person, im arguing for birth control, not euthanasia.

[Brascofarian]

@theticketybooboo It doesn't matter Booboo, the one salient argument is that DNA has spent billions of years predisposing us to the things AN's hate -all together now- consumption, addiction, cannibalism and reproduction. But calling that a process of delusion, when it has been intrinsic to our survival as a species, that has brought you, albeit unwillingly onto this planet is rhetoric. Natural selection sorts out such thinking (unless it's from a point of hypocrisy *ahem*). It seems then, in ->

[Brascofarian]

@Brascofarian order to avoid losing to evolution, not only do you have to get turkeys voting for christmas, you also then, as a minority species, force extinction on all other creatures... and do it "gracefully". :/

I'm not liking your odds on this one, but carry on.

[zarkoff45]

Antinatalism offended me also:

watch?v=14rTSF-A4Uw

[gabiotta]

@zarkoff45

Excellent video, I subscribed.

[zarkoff45]

@gabiotta

Thanx

[HeavyTrafficAhead]

Patch I love when you boil the shit down and filter it through your special brand of invective. The spoiled, ennui driven, bored suburban goth teen is what I have in mind when I hear the majority of these twats. There a few that are honestly interested in the philosophical issues, but the majority are self indulgent, whiny twats that never got over the angsty nihilistic tail spin that most of us get over in our later teens-early twenties

[gabiotta]

@HeavyTrafficAhead

There are a few. My friendship with BooBoo seems to have made it through unscathed, which is a relief.

[HeavyTrafficAhead]

@gabiotta Yeah she was one of the people I had in mind when I gave that exception

[IdaMiaDot]

The whole conversation has become pretty annoying because of all the drama and ridiculous trolls and what not.

In my opinion the basic summary is:

- Benatar's asymmetry doesn't work (if objectionable reply or w/e).

- Arguments grounded in consequentialism (risk aversion, suffering mitigation etc) are pretty decent; but don't have much practical out-growth besides population reduction.

- The most extreme suffering pwns pleasure (e.g. holocausts, war etc pwn joy and stuff)

[IdaMiaDot]

@IdaMiaDot - And the concept of imposition was abused.

So yeah, that's pretty much the entire conversation right there.

And also anyone who would start evolution on another planet and just leave it to its own devices would be insanely evil and/or crazy.

[HeavyTrafficAhead]

@IdaMiaDot "- The most extreme suffering pwns pleasure (e.g. holocausts, war etc pwn joy and stuff)"

I would say that has more to do with our psychology. The exceptional gets noticed in our minds. It's the reasoning behind the journalistic cliche of "If it bleeds, it leads". Pleasure is boring. Looks at what makes compelling cinema for another example

[gabiotta]

@IdaMiaDot

I am not convinced that the suffering does pwn the pleasure. I don't think that those two things sit at opposite sides of the scales, I think that they are experienced and recalled in such jarring different manners that you cannot weigh them off against one another.

[chellelavelle]

"you have no idea what its like to be anybody else except yourself" i can imagine what it must be like to be eaten alive , can you? , you selfish bastard !

[gabiotta]

@chellelavelle

You can imagine what it is like to be eaten alive, but you are almost certainly completely wrong in almost all of the details. That is cartoon thinking.

[chellelavelle]

oh your a breeder, that explains your bull shit rhetoric

[lanananans]

never heard of antinatalism before just a few months ago.Wish to invite them to live here,think they would forget about this bullshit philosophy first time they have to wait in the line for something.I personally only see (most of the time)these "weird" ideas coming from progressive or maybe i should say rich countries,where ppl didnt have much problems so they have time to invent or see problems where they dont exist.have a good day sir,thumbs up.

[gabiotta]

@lanananans

Thanks!

Where is here?

[lanananans]

@gabiotta serbia

[DeviantincTV]

Completely agree! Never heard of 'antinatalism' until just now. What a totally weird philosophy. Anyone who actually believes in 'antinatalism' should just drink the kool-ade....

[gabiotta]

@DeviantincTV

It is Internet trivia really, but it really managed to piss me off while I was eating my breakfast this morning.

[DeviantincTV]

@gabiotta

Was thinking about it some more overnight and it seems even weirder. I mean, how do you add a subjective qualitative value to a natural process? Especially one that is required to make the value judgement in the first place? Either you take an objective view that birth has a neutral 'flat' value (we start from nothing and end as nothing with the stuff in between being statistical 'noise') or there is the subjective view that is necessarily individual to each of us, IMO...

[DeviantincTV]

@gabiotta

.... but I think that ultimately it IS people's subjective experience (I think that's what you were saying in the video about the proponents being miserable depressive types) that they're projecting out as objective reality (all too many people do this). They assign a negative value to their own birth and then assume everyone else must be the same!

[gabiotta]

@DeviantincTV

That is pretty much the hole in their thinking. Well, that and the really quite extraordinary cult of personality that surrounds this guy /user/inmendham.

Don't expect any sense from him though, he will block you for pretty much anything he does not consider adulation.

[phenixwryter]

Rock on. Good advice, too.

[gabiotta]

@phenixwryter

Cheers. It was going to be a bit of fun when I turned the camera on, but I got a little heated.

[phenixwryter]

@gabiotta

I got a little heated too, in your comment section. My bad.

[dewinthemorning]

Wow, my favourite video on the subject, even above my own.:)

Their main 'philosophical' conclusion is - there is suffering. That's all! They are not talking about an imbalance b/n the amount of suffering and pleasure, no. They are saying one instance of suffering of one person, one time, cannot be compensated by all the pleasure in the world. That, coupled with the fact that 'life doesn't have any meaning or value for the universe', and tripled by the fact that a human has consciousness CONT.

[dewinthemorning]

@dewinthemorning CONT. , so CAN decide to not procreate, therefore can avoid a potential suffering to his/her unborn child, any procreation is just a caprice!

All this is the result of home-made philosophy, coupled with an injurious ignorance of the nature of life, and of evolution (which builds up and refines meaning and worth of life to living beings, especially humans), and tripled with a god complex (looking at life from outside life).

[gabiotta]

@dewinthemorning

Thanks. Though I think you did the subject matter far better service. Cheers for posting yours as a response also. Quite an honour.

[dewinthemorning]

@gabiotta In a simple but very effective language you managed to touch on all points worth considering about AN. You even mentioned the fact that their aim is unachievable. I decided to send my second video, where I explain why is it that their noble goal to do away with all suffering by extinguishing all life (lol) is absolutely with no hope of being fulfilled.

[gabiotta]

@dewinthemorning

Simple but very effective language.

That might have to be my new channel description. :)

[rozeboosje]

Damn right. As far as I'm concerned, antinatalists try to invalidate both my choice to become a father and my daughter's existence, and there is absolutely no point in engaging with somebody like that on any level. If a person is an antinatalist they can fuck right off.

[gabiotta]

@rozeboosje

Perhaps we should put them out of their misery? We will be putting us out of a good portion of our own at the same time.

Two birds, one stone.

[rozeboosje]

@gabiotta Whilst violence is never the answer I must admit the idea is ever so tempting XD

[CHASCHARLTON]

@rozeboosje you are a fukin lunatic, i don't think you have thought this through , you running a risk with your daughters welfare every day that passes, and why so you , you selfish bastard could play god,

[rozeboosje]

@CHASCHARLTON Fuck off :-)

[CHASCHARLTON]

@rozeboosje yea thats the pro-natal way when in doubt tell em to fuck off .... moron

[gabiotta]

@CHASCHARLTON

Are you representing antinatalism by wandering around the net being an ignorant, shouty prick?

I am sure that your fellow followers are not embarrassed by you at all.

[KillingKeymo]

Perhaps people worry about over-population too much and feel that life isn't or shouldn't always be something that's 'sacred' and to be appreciated.It can all be seen under an objective light, just like how some women want & believe in the freedom of abortion and some don't, kinda straying off topic but IDK, its a topic w/ many angles, Im a bit confused myself cause I support euthanasia , yet Antinatalism feels like its something thats imposed, where as euthanasia is a choice.

[KillingKeymo]

I don't understand , well actually I do understand how some people like to imagine that theyre the only ones who suffer & things never turn out as planned, I can understand how they say "Its better to have never existed, its all TOO MUCH FOR poor little ME!" if some odd man in his fuckin' 40's wants to bitch and moan in a corner about it, by all means, but I think its a fuckin' ridiculous ideology to impose & support as if its overall, a good thing for society

[phenixwryter]

@KillingKeymo

Hey Mo. : ) Good comment. It triggered a REM song in my noggin. "That's me in the corner. That's me in the spotlight. Losing my religion." 

[KillingKeymo]

@phenixwryter Hey there Phenix :)

OMG, I love . . . well like, yea I totally like that song too

[SatiricalStewie]

the asymmetry is more to do with the actual act of bringing someone into existence, more than the fact there is more suffering in the world then happiness.

[gabiotta]

@SatiricalStewie

I don't rally understand that. Surely it is the asymmetry of the world they are being born into that is the issue. 

[SatiricalStewie]

@gabiotta ok gabs well I'll do my best to explain as best I understand it. If you give someone pleasure it is good, if you don't give them pleasure it isn't bad. If you give someone pain it is bad if you don't give someone pain it is still good. So there is an inherent asymmetry in imposing life. If you don't give birth, it isn't bad, if you do it might be bad, so it is inherently more harmful to bring something into existence. (I think thats the argument)

[SatiricalStewie]

@IdaMiaDot I think the argument is the same really. denying infinite pleasure is not bad (unless they exist), someone being tortured is bad......... The videos Ive watched, whenever I hear the word "asymmetry" it has usually related to Benatar's book. Ive got Benatar's book in front of me, page 30 he lays it out the asymmetry of pleasure and pain, almost as I described it, I simplified a little bit.

[Uhmu45]

If i cared about my potential childrens suffering i would be a antinatalist. But thats their problem, my problem is only to raise them and care for them. If my children don't like it to be alive and feel its too much suffering, they are welcome to end it. Not my problem, its their life not mine.

[crazybasement]

Brilliant :)

[SatanRobot]

I wish many people here on youtube had never been born, nor do I wish them any continuance, so that my suffering may end. Hows that for brutal honesty?

[SilverBuddha]

@SatanRobot Gee, Satan, why so glum? I thought you revelled in this kind of thing.

[SatanRobot]

@SilverBuddha Not you silly :D

[SkidRowRadio]

AN is a recognition of what we r really doing when we choose to procreate. that is to impose the potential for risk & suffering on a new consciousness that did not request to be entered into that lottery. it is effectively playing roulette with someone elses chips. is that an inaccurate description?

Sure you validate existence despite your own suffering, you're hardwired to.

AN does not contradict efforts to help people who r already alive. thats silly. i work in child care, but its not relevant

[shlockofgod]

@SkidRowRadio "... to impose the potential for risk & suffering on a new consciousness that did not request to be entered into that lottery. it is effectively playing roulette with someone elses chips. is that an inaccurate description?"

Yeah, it's misleading hyperbole. AN is a moral claim that procreation is always wrong. There's no argument for that.

There's plenty of evidence to show that people who regret being born do so because of events in childhood, not simply by coming into existence.

[SkidRowRadio]

@shlockofgod its not about regretting being born. most people dont, even if they experience a life times of suffering. we are driven to survive, to endure. this is not about the experiences of the already born. thats like asking taking a smack heads affirmation of heroin as a sign its a good thing.

[shlockofgod]

@SkidRowRadio I didn't say "it's" about regretting being born. You brought up the the idea of the conceptual person being at risk of suffering if it exists. If people don't regret their existence then your roulette analogy fails. I'm suggesting that those who do regret their do so because of events after birth and not because of birth.

[shlockofgod]

@SkidRowRadio"...we are driven to survive, to endure. this is not about the experiences of the already born. thats like asking taking a smack heads affirmation of heroin as a sign its a good thing."

It's not like that at all. Being a smack head is an inherently bad thing. Even smack heads agree.

I'd say the differences between addiction to smack and addiction to life illustrate why one is good and the other is not.

I think you are trying to argue with prejudicial analogy; like inmmendham.

[BobChaos23]

@SkidRowRadio No, it's a subjective perspective like everything else. Like the man says, there is no objective value to it, it's a philosophical vantage point, not revealed truth. Get used to it, argue for it if you like, but please stop pretending like everyone who finds little value in anti-natalism is just ignoring "the facts".

[SkidRowRadio]

@BobChaos23 you cant just say 'no' and have done with it. you have to demonstrate how that description is not accurate. you wouldn't accept it from a theist, "god might exist, you arent objectively right that he doesnt!"

[BobChaos23]

@SkidRowRadio Actually, no. You are the ones making the claim, you are the ones who have to prove it for anyone else to accept it...weren't you guys listening back in the day when "shifting the burden of proof" had to be explained at length to the fundamentalist christians?

And sorry, but a vague equation of "pain = infinity, pleasure = irrelevant", with no backup, when it's pretty clear that this is a matter of subjective viewpoints and philosophy, doesn't count.