Jesus tells us to be like a child if we want to enter his kingdom, children are pure and innocent, as clean as they can get, they have never broken any God law to be guilty of sin....sin is transgression of the law.
@eambrausa sometime in the future children will eventually know the difference from right and wrong and they choose wrong they will commit sin but until then they are pure and innocent, sinless.
WTF How are people even discussing the fact that babies would go to hell no you can even leave open the slightest possibility no im glad its bullshit it horrible Your all fucked up for beliving in this stuff.
our creator is just in his judgments, we have an eternal creator with eternal consequences .you believe in the judge who would put you in jail for a few years for breaking a man made law dont you?now think of breaking the creators laws. Piper said that babies dont go to hell , that are not at the age of accountability. repent of your vulgarity or be held accountable Matthew 12:36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken
Jesus said, “I am the truth and the life,” not I am the myth and the life. You cannot go to heaven if you believe in a myth, because you do not know the truth, and as Jesus says, you have to know the truth to get to heaven.
The truth is the only thing that can unite all human beings. It is what we all have in common, and that will never change.
Google 'Truth Contest' and open the entry called 'The Present'. Read what it says, and check the truth for yourself.
Baptist is not a requirment for salvation. If an indiviual accepts christ as their savior, and dies before baptism, the will be saved from hell. The reason is, salvation is BY GRACE ALONE. Baptism is simply a outward testemony to the change that happened in your life.
We are all born with sin, in Genesis it states that the seed of sin is passed down at the moment of conception. Babies are not held accountable for sin until they have reached the age of accountability. Thus When they are mentally capable of understanding salvation, they will be held accountable for the sin they were born with.
@007eil Didnt Jesus say "suffer the little children to come unto me?" The word he used refered to very young children not able to walk or talk. He didn't say "when they are mentally capable of understanding salvation they will be held accountable." That appears to be a manmade doctrine.
@Ericules555 they are tho. all people are born into this world sinful, but piper is saying they're saved because the lord judges those who HAVE had a chance to profess He is God. So babies are saved because they did NOT HAVE a chance to do so. It's a little more complicated than what I said but, bottom line...
They are born with sin. We all inherit the sins of our fathers
Piper misrepresents the beliefs of Catholics on Purgatory in this video. Catholics do not believe that purgatory is a "second chance" to be saved. All people who are in purgatory are saved from hell and will spend eternity with Jesus in heaven after they are purified. The New Testaments seems to make a distiction between the eternal fires of damnation and the fires of purification.
Isn't their a missing book of the modern bible that deals with this? I've read that you can pray for your dead ones to help their way to heaven. Also in that same book it says what ever sins you do are retained if you don't change them.
Get the bible with everything in it, like i SHOULD.
@danielkirk1 There is no such book and in any case it would contradict the Gospel. Consider the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus for starters. If you don't repent and believe in the saving grace of Jesus in this life, you've set your condemnation. Nothing and no one can or will save you. Such a book would make a mockery of Calvary.
@RevGreen1 Thank you i will study what you've mentioned. Of course, it was a rumour on some youtube video (one of those conspiracy ones). Bless you brother, thank you for helping me understand :)
@danielkirk1 The Catholic Bible contains 6 books called the deuterocanonical books or apocrophal books. At least one of the them III Macabees contains information about purgatory.Purgatory is a place where saved people go that need purification before they enter heaven. Lost people go to hell when they die. These books were a part of almost all the translations of the Bible for hundreds of years until after 1500 when Protestants removed them.
@prairiemark Actaully as far as I am aware the apocrypha was added in the counter reformation. There is no Purgatory, never has been, never will be, for as RockforJesus so aptly asks, if we can be purified by Purgatory Jesus need never have died. We find in the wholeness of scripture: But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. There is no more need for sacrifice because Christ paid in full.
@RevGreen1 The translations of the Bible before the reformation contained the apocryphal books. They were removed in some protestant translations after 1600. They had been a part of the Bible for hundreds of year. Many of the early reformers like Wycliffe believed in purgatory....it was a part of Judiasm before Christ. The Bible does not say "if we can be purified by purgatory then Jesus need ever have died. Purgatory is not for lost persons, it is for saved persons only.C
@danielkirk1 I am not sure what you are refering to here, but some of the Apocropahl books that the Protestants removed after 1600 A.D. had been part of the Bible for hundreds of years before that time. Catholics Bibles do still contain them just like the ancient Bibles did. They do talk about Purgatory. Please be careful who you listen to. Some people misrepresent themselves. RevGreen for example is a punk 20 year old kid posing as an ordained minister. I talked to him about his dishonesty.
We on earth pray for each other, not to each other. It is irrational to suppose a person in heaven can hear a load of prayers, and even less answer them. It is to God we pray, and we pray FOR others and ourselves. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus, and all scripture demands that we have our eyes on him. The pattern of saints on earth delivering prayers to those in Heaven other than God is necromancy, see what necromancy is. We are not instructed to pray TO any other than God
@RevGreen1 Well communication breaks down when we take the liberty to use words with our private definition...whether the words be necromancy or pagan. You make your own definitions that are not in line with historic use...You misunderstand what I am saying and what Catholics believe. If the saints deliver the prayers to God as is pictured in Revelation 5..the prayers are going to God When we ask another Christian to pray for us...we are making a request similar to what we make to the Saints.
@prairiemark Yes I don't say we shouldn't ask each other, I am saying we cannot ask of the 'dead'. It is not good. And my definition is correct. Look hard, usually necromancy is to seek the future sight, but not only, it's the purpose especially. Rev 5 doesn't teach us to pray to saints. It teaches us that men are in heaven and serve the Lord.
@RevGreen1 The Bible does of course teach that saints in heaven deliver the prayers of saints on earth to the God.If this were wrong it would have been stated so.Thanks for interacting with me. I dont have time to continue with the same subject.You are young and have a lot to learn as we all do.You believe a lot of right things...like no one comes the father except through Jesus..and the importance of keeping our eyes on him. There are a lot of traditions that will close your mind...beware.
I would recommend you read what I say. I know that the prayers of the saints are like incense. IT is you who has to search in vain for the BIble to teach prayers offered to the saints are like incense to the Lord. It stinks, I think there can be no doubt, that idolators should offer prayers to the saints. Nowhere does the Bible teach it. It seems to me the indoctrination is on your side. I read the Bible for what it does and doesn't say.
@RevGreen1 I doubt if the elders in heaven are participating in necromancy. Necromancy is defined as "conjuring up the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future." So the Biblical pattern of saints on earth delivering prayers to God through the saints in heaven is of course not necromancy. Please read the Bible for with it does and doesnt say....to use your words.
@prairiemark Where in all the BIble are we taught to pray to saints in heaven? Where in all the OT is there a lesson, even just the Psalms, to pray to the Patriarchs? Nowhere. Now if the Lord hears all my prayers as I am believing in Jesus for my righteousness, why should I pray to a saint? How would someone in heaven hear me?The Bible tellsus that the angels work day and night assisting in our salvation, but there is no command to pray to them! Where are we taught to pray to saints?
@RevGreen1 Praise the Lord from the heavens....Praise him all his angels, praise him all his heavenly hosts. The Psalmist makes requests to the angels.
@prairiemark That's enlightening, I can't find the verse. Haven't seen it for ages, must have been a poor recall. Sorry about that. Anyway, regarding the angels, the psalmist calls them to praise, he doesn't call on them to curry personal favour. Anyway if you want to live in cloud cuckoo land thinking the saints are able to carry your praise and prayers that's your loss. Even as a child I could see praying to saints wasting and far inferior than speaking directly to my Lord.
@RevGreen1 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
With verses like this, who needs to pray to the saints in heaven? And Paul would rebuke you if you consider the Christians boasting as to whom baptised whom.
@RevGreen1 If you take your view to its logical conclusion then we would have not need to ask saints on earth or in heaven to pray for us. We can pray directly to God...so why obey him when he says to participate in intercessory prayer. Thanks for your responses. Perhaps we can talk again if you consider some of the issues in light of the whole Bible.
I don't see any point in continuing this discussion. You simply take a verse and build a theology around it, just as Mormon's do. For example they take one line in the Bible, "I called you gods", and they think they'll one day be a God. You treat the 'Saints' as objects of worship, there can be no doubt, You are simply in denial. Christians pray to God, and God alone. As Jesus said, "You have a fine way of putting aside the things of God for the sake of your traditions."
You show no example. You are clutching at straws. Look at the Rev 18 song, it is from heaven. Look at the prayer passed to Jesus in the censure, it is simply someone passing an item that belongs to the Lord, else it would not be incense to him. It is you who needs to understand the reality of the idolatry the RCC teaches. It is not sanctioned in the Bible,
Look back at your posts. You absolutely denied that there were examples in the Bible of anyone praying to a saint in heaven. And I dont know if it is honest to say that a saint in heaven delivering prayers to God from saints on earth is "simply someone passing an item." It is exactly what you denied ever happened. How many more areas of your faith are wrong and unbiblical because of following non-biblical man made traditions?
Why would God consider the prayers to the 'Saints' be like incense when Jesus is our mediator? I'd like to know what non-biblical man made traditions are that I follow, except I don't see the 'Saints' to be in a position to hear hundreds of prayers directed to them, let alone thousands and don't even see the 'Saints' to be a class of person that you do! I don't see the point in hoping a 'Saint' can hear me, when the Lord always hears me.
@RevGreen1 I would recommend you look through the Bible and consider the number of times where the prayers of the saints are considered to be incense to God. Look at the structure of the worship in the tabernacle and look at the psalms where prayers of the saints are like incense. I am not sure what you are getting at but it seems like you are heavily indoctrinated on some of these issues...so it is hard to see the meaning of scripture.
I personally believe there are missing books that are required to know about this question. I can't think of any instance where it even hints new borns can go to hell. That is injustice because they didn't have a chance to prove to god how they would of served him. I believe also they are accounted as 'pure good' because i believe their whole purpose is to change the life of the parents who had the baby. Everything happens for a reason, even the unexplained.
@danielkirk1 A historic doctrine of Christianity is the doctrine of original sin. We are born sinful. We sin because we are sinful, we are not sinful because we sin. Much of modern evangelicalism has succumbed to the Pelagian heresy.....believing that humans are born neutral and that they can choose to follow God or not follow God. We are born with a will that will reject God unless enlightened by the Holy Spirit.
@prairiemark So what are you telling me? God send babies to hell? Doubt it. Let's remember god can do anything he wants. If he wanted to he could take away hell and destroy everything he has made. God isn't limited to his own rules for us.
@danielkirk1 I dont know what happens to unbaptized babies. I like Luther beleive this is one of the mysteries of God that we cannot know. But God would be just if he sent all of the human race into seperation from himself. We are a fallen race. And....God cannot do anything....he cannot contradict himself....or his character. He is a just God. He does what is just and good.
The prayers of the saints are apparently like incesence to the Lord and kept in bowls. There is no point in praying for the dead, so Wesley was mistaken. The dead are either with the Lord or locked outside.
@RevGreen1 You make all these absolute theological statements that are not supported By the Bible. Here is another one "There is no point in praying for the dead." One thing to think about is that God is not locked in time. He lives in the eternal present as far as time goes. He can hear a prayer given for someone before it is given. If it is given after death, God knows about it when the person is still living. Be careful when you make statements that limit the omniscience of God.
@RevGreen1 The book of Revelation is not meant to be understood literally. I doubt if prayers are kept in literal bowls or vials. But the importance of this passage is that Saints in heaven deliver the prayers to God. A biblical fact that many deny.
@prairiemark Of course it is denied, it is because there is no call for us to pray to the dead. As I said, it is necromancy; you don't want it to be but that is what necromancy is. It follows after Pagan traditions, and that is what the Roman church has become, a bastion for pagan rituals and traditions. As Jesus said to the Pharisees, "You have a fine way of putting aside the things of God for the sake of your traditions."
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and ... let's fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God
What has this to do with praying to the dead? It is speaking of emulating the faith of those before us.
@RevGreen1 If I understood you right, you said flat out that saints in heaven cannot hear us. I know of no verse in the Bible that says that. However it does seem that they see us....if we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.
@prairiemark So we know they see us....and they carry the prayers of saints on earth to God....Rev 5:8....Isnt is reasonable they can know what we are saying then?
@prairiemark We don;t know they can see us? The cloud of witnesses were those who lived in faith as we should! That is the witness, not that they look down from heaven at us! It is totally unreasonable to pray to the dead. And there is no biblical teaching for it. Best you can do is twist scripture. The cloud of witnesses were those who lived faithfully and we are to emulate them. That as I said before is what the passage is about.
@RevGreen1 You speak with such authority on the scriptures! But where do you get the information for your hermeuntical gymnatiscs? Isnt a witness someone who observes something?
@prairiemark What hermeuntical gymnastics? I don't make up a plethora of doctrines based on one verse! Nowhere in all the BIble is there a precedent to pray to or for the dead. Nowhere at all. So one verse that related someone passing a censure to the Lord does not mean the incense belonged to the saint, only that the Lord wanted to enjoy the prayers of the saints. It is ridiculous to suppose the saints hear prayers and praise given to them by idolatrous people on earth.
@RevGreen1 A cloud of witnesses had a universal meaning in English....it is a group of people who see something........You said there is nowhere in the Bible that anyone prays for the dead. I mentioned the Rev 5:8 where the saints in heaven pass the prayers of the saints on earth to God. That seems like an example to me, but you reject it. How about Rev 18 contains another example of people on earth praying to apostles and prophets in heaven.....
@prairiemark Rev 18....about the fall of Babylon. The and shipmasters and all the sailors and the marinors rejoice...and call for rejoicing in heaven too! vs 20.....Rejoice over her, thou heaven and ye holy apostles and prophets, for God hath judged your judgmento on her....... You say there is no Biblical precedent to pray to or for the dead...(two seperate subjects)....but here are two examples that shows what you say is simply wrong. Tradition causes us to ignore Biblical teaching.
@prairiemark Calling for all heaven to rejoice is not actually praying to the dead.
And the call is a generic one without bestowing demigod status on so-called 'Saints'. Again you draw a complete doctrine on the assumption of a verse teaching something that it does not teach. For a start narrating that song is a heavenly being, not men on earth calling for the apostles to rejoice.
@RevGreen1 You are not following our conversation. I did not "draw a complete doctrine" from an assumption here.I merely pointed out your assumption was wrong. You said several times there are no examples of saints on earth praying to saints in heaven. I showed you two examples and you accuse me of "drawing a complete doctrine." I merely showed that what you said was absolute Biblical truth was not and your assumptions were wrong. If you could relax perhaps we could have a rational discourse.
@prairiemark Rev 5:8 says they passed the bowls of the prayers of the saints to the Lord. It doesn't say they were prayed to or that they could hear every prayer offered to them! You are simply not realistic nor biblical. Nowhere, as I say, are we taught to pray to the dead or to anyone other than God, whether it be Father, Son or Holy Spirit. Rev 5:8 rather more says men will be in the presence of the Lord and serve Him directly there.
@RevGreen1 So the prayers of the saints on earth are kept in a literal bowl? .......Wesley said that it was at least as important to pray for the dead as for the living.
@RevGreen1 You make the point of Catholic theology very well! We do not pray TO the Saints as if they are the object of our worship. They deliver the prayers to God.
Piper misunderstands Catholic teaching. Catholics do not believe that purgatory is a "second" chance. At about 0:50 he expresses this belief about Catholics. Catholics believe all persons in Purgatory are saved.
@RevGreen1 If you read Catholic catechism you will find that catholics believe that Christ is One Mediator between God and man.
I have suffered reading the Catechism, and confessions to priests for the absolvement of sin is not teaching Christ is the mediator, it is teaching the priest is the mediator since he deals out the penance. And that which is entirely unnecessary if only the Vatican would know it.
One authority writes: The first known Baptist Congregation was formed by a number of these fleeing separatists in Amsterdam, Holland in 1608.
All depends who and why you listen. The point is the RCC has been a bad apple for centuries and put down any one who disputed the Gospel with her. The Popes have been evil, even until today they teach you Maryism and Purgatory. She is not the foundation and pillar of truth. She buried such things long ago
@RevGreen1 You said it "All depends who and why you listen."I eventually found out that the church history I learned at an anabaptist Bible College was not only skewed, but woefully lacking. When I was still an anabaptists fundamentalist a kind Cathlic asked me to compare the faith of the apostles and the early church fathers first with the Baptists and then with the Catholics and then decide which it was more like...I did and woe is me....fist and second century Christianity was Catholic!
@prairiemark Well you are sadly mistaken. The Bible doesn't teach to pray to the past saints anywhere. Neither does it distinguish the saint from the layman. You are either a saint or you don't belong to God, there is no inbetween. The Bible does not teach Purgatory or that Mary is the bestower of graces. Yet the Catholic tells us her traditions were taught by the apostles! Your personal testimony doesn't tell me anything about you, except you are decieved even by a 'kind Catholic'.
@RevGreen1 The New Testament does seem to distinguish between the eternal fires of punishment in hell and the fires of purification or refinement.....and of course III Macabees teaches about purgatory and it was and accepted belief in OT Judiaism. Likewise in Revelation there are examples of Saints in heaven offering up prayers delivered by saints on earth. Rev 5:8 Actually many protestants during and after the reformation believed in praying to saints and for the dead.
@prairiemark The NT is replete about the Holy SPirit cleansing us and purifiying us from sin. That has nothing to do with Purgatory. It was not accepted in the OT anywhere. Rev says the saints passed the bowls of prayers to the Lord, it does not say they gave prayers offered to them to Jesus. The saints cannot hear you, they are no omnipresent, and to suppose they do miraculous stuff for you is idolatry.
@RevGreen1 The saints in heaven delivering the prayers of the saints on earth as illustrated in Rev 5 is in no way necromancy...what twist of hermeneutics gives you that idea?True the saints in heaven are not God, and are not omnipresent....but that doesnt mean they cannot hear us.That is a non sequitor.They are spoken of as a great cloud of witnesses....so apparently they can see us.If we examine your beliefs about Catholics we find a lot of false suppositions and a lack of Biblical support.
@prairiemark And what is your definition of necormancy? Samuel was a prophet, yet Saul sinned grievously by having a witch commune with him. and you sin grievously praying the saints bless your bed you lie on. It is necromancy and idolatry. It is grievous.
@RevGreen1 Here again we must appeal to Biblical authority and not to human tradition or reason. If the saints in heaven before God practice it....it is not a grievious sin...or idolatry. View like this show that protestants ultimately do not hold the Bible as the final authority.....but traditions non biblical traditions they were taught.
@prairiemark The whole point is no one practiced it in the Bible. It is your tradition that you seem to need to because you actually have no faith in Jesus, you want to get round him and twist the ear of another to advocate for you. Goodnight!
@RevGreen1 Sorry guy, you have not right to say I have no faith in Jesus because I differ with you on some theological point. Perhaps you should read about all the great protestant heros that believed in praying to the saints. Many during the reformation and evangelists like John and Charles Wesley hundreds of years later. Did they have "no faith in Jesus" Catholics dont try to "get around Jesus" by praying to saints.....it is like the Rev 5 passages says....the prayers get to God
@prairiemark Jesus commanded us to pray to God. If you feel you cannot get something from God in Jesus' name why go to someone you perceive to be a saint? I haven't read anywhere that Wesley prayed to saints. Even if he did I wouldn't. Nowhere in the Bible are we taugfht to pray to anyone but God, for to go to another is idolatry. I have every right to question your faith as you are yet to prove any one of your doctrines.
@RevGreen1 There are a lot of things you likely havent read about Wesley....he also prayed for the dead and had a fairly well developed Maryology. You have strong opionions on so many things you dont know about. You said the Bible didnt say that the "Church was the pillar and foundation of truth." You flat out denied that the Bible said that. You said that saints do not hear us. What is your Biblical support for that? You didnt say you believed it to be trueyou stated it as a fact.
@prairiemark What Wesley did or didn't do is irrelevent. If he did wrong he did wrong! I did not flat out deny the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, my intent was to say what do You mean by this, for Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. I knew you meant the RCC was the foundation and pillar and it is that I intended to deny.
@RevGreen1 Most Christians find Biblical support for intercessory prayer. Is this a lack of faith? Do we ask others to pray for us because we cannot get something from God in Jesus' name? Christ is the one great mediator between God and Man....yet he recognizes lesser intercessors. You take such strident positions with apparently little or no thought of the Biblical principles.
@prairiemark Intercessory prayer with the living, Not the dead! I have every thought of biblical principles! You can't prove any of your stuff from the Bible. All I can do with your arguments is point out there are no biblical precedents for what you are teaching!
@RevGreen1 The Holy Spirit powers us. The Blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us...although the role of each person in the trinity is closely related. Where in the Old Testament does it say that Purgatory was not accepted? I think you just threw that in. Actually it seems to me the state of the afterlife is somewhat dim and poorly defined in the O.T. And....how do vials or bowls of prayers offered to the Lord by saints in heaven differ from offering prayers for them?
@prairiemark Macabees was never scripture, the only reason the RCC added the book at Trent, which condemns all Protestants, was to fit their shaky theology of Purgatory. There is no reason or need for Purgatory as the believer is made new in the Holy Spirit. We are washed, sanctified and made new in Christ Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit not some halfway house as Purgatory!
@RevGreen1 I, like you was taught many false things about the Catholic church. In my pride and arrogance it took decades before I would investigate each item one by one. So many fundamentalists throw a bunch of "stuff" against the wall about Catholics.....one liners they think will stick...but if you investigate each one they fall away....one by one....untill you realize you have what you want and need in the Catholic Church.....Historic Biblical Christianity.
@prairiemark No one taught me about the RCC except Catholics and their Catechism! I have no need of the RCC, she is a whore. I hate her doctrines. I have Historic Biblical Christianity, I don't need Popes to tell me I need them to come to Jesus. I believe the things the Apostles taught as we find in the Bible, that is historic Christianity. Historically the Vatican has been a beast.
@RevGreen1 Protestants say they need no one to help them understand the Bible. But look at the history of the Protestant churches....only 1/4 of church history occured since the reformation yet literally thousands of sects, and subsects have started by people holding a Bible in their hand and saying they have Gods eternal truth. When I was a protestant I went through at least three church splits in my limited experience...and each time both sides held up that Bible and said it was their guide.
@RevGreen1 We could go on and on. I have other time commitments......I wish you well. Keep learning, keep searching for more truth in Gods Word. And keep learning about early Christian saints from reliable sources.....Goodnight.
@RevGreen1 Jude 22 says to "have mercy on the doubter." Doubters seem to be a different class than those who reject Gods truth....perhaps they are "pre-Christians"....not yet fully converted. In a way...they are "in between." You make so many statements with full confidence...yet when compared with scripture....they seem very uncertain...or even wrong.
@prairiemark What scripture? Where in the BIble are we taught to pray to the dead? We are told not to commune wit the dead. Where in the Bible are we told to sing praises to the saints? We are told to worship God alone. Where is the Catholic Church the pillar and foundation of truth when her traditions supercede scripture? No, you have not shown any scriptures to support your superstitions. I am trying to be kind.
The only afterlife is the life of the maggots. Saw an interview on TV of an Anglican bishop. Somebody in the audience asked; Monsignor, do you believe in an afterlife, and if so what is the evidence. Reply: I don`t know if there is an afterlife. Nobody ever returned from the dead. But I believe in god`s love, he will take care of this problem(sic)
The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. God's love & mercy endures forever. Does it really endure forever or only in this life? How can it be Good News if it doesn't translate to the afterlife? God will still judge but He will not punish forever. He's a better father than we are, right?
1 Tim 4:10 This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
Piper misunderstands Catholic theology. Purgatory is only for saved people, not for those who "need a second chance." Many prominent protestant pastors dont understand Catholic belief, yet they feel the need to comment anyway.
@gilbert4321 Hmmm......the books of the Bible were pretty much constant for over a thousand years until the reformation....when the apocryphol books were removed.....and of course those books refered to purgatory.Other books in the NT hint of it.But the point I was making here was not about the biblical support or broad acceptance of purgatory in church history, but that Piper seems to misunderstand catholic belief. Protestants often comment on Catholic belief without understanding.
@gilbert4321 Belief in purgatory actually precedes the Christian era ....Judiasm included such a belief before the Birth of Christ. In early church history Iraneous believed and wrote of it in the 2nd century. Augstine distinguished between the eternal fire of damnation in hell and purifying fire spoken of in the New Testament. I might not hurt to look at the historical and Biblical records before you comment.
@gilbert4321 You said Catholics invented Purgatory....I mentioned Judiasm taught it a long time before the Christian era. Do your homework....dont expect me to do it for you. So many evangelicals spout ignorance and think they are somehow exempt from the Biblical requirement to study to show yourself a workman that doesnt need to be ashamed.
@prairiemark I just want to make sure were talking about the same thing. Hell and Purgatory are 2 completely different things. Catholics believe that before you go to heaven you go thought a ceartan time of punishment to make up for your sins but this states that Jesus sacrifice wasn't enough for our sins which is blasphemy
@gilbert4321 Catholics believe that the guilt of your sins are completely paid for by Christs dead.....but there are still times when we have a penalty for our sins. All the people in purgatory are saved. I would encourage you to lok at the beliefs of the early church fathers and not just 20th or 21st century protestant views. What did the church believe throught the centuries of church history and what verses did they look at?
@prairiemark I'm sorry I refuse to believe anything outside of the word of God. It's easy for a church to start new teachings back in those days because normal people didn't have access to the bible and religious leaders could tell the people anything they wanted to.
@gilbert4321 You already have said you believe several things that are outside of the Bible. For instance....the books included in the Bible are an extrabiblical issue. Nowhere is there a comprehensive list in the Bible that says which books are to be included in the Bible. This is an extrabiblical issue.......and in the last 500 years many have changed the list of books included in the Bible. Sola Scriptura does not work.
@prairiemark The same God who inspired the holy prophets and apostles to write the correct words of God also helped the various councils choose which books to include in the Bible as it was assembled some time later. Individual persons are entitled to pick and chose to include or omit books they may not like.
@gilbert4321 G.K. Chesterton in his classic defense of historic Christiantiy- "Orthodoxy"-he speaks of the two enemies of Christianity-the Bible Worshipers and the Bible Bashers.The Bible worshipers seek to destroy all of Christianity that is not the Bible...the Traditions, the Creeds, the Liturgy, the Church structure. They create institutions of higher learning advocating this view-then what happens?The Bible Bashers step in with Higher Criticism and Bash the Bible-What is left?An empty bag!
@gilbert4321 Evangelicals usually follow their leaders and dont even know that what they believe is a much different faith than the faith of the apostles and church Fathers. I challenge you to study the writings of St Ignatius of Antioch and ask yourself if what he believed is more like a Baptist or a Catholic. He was a friend, a disciple, and later a co-worker with St John the Apostle......He believed in the Real Presence of Christ at Communion.
@gilbert4321 I came kicking and screaming against my will from Baptist fundamentalism to Catholicism over many years largely based on historical evidence. Have you ever read St Ignatius and compared it to St John the Apostles writing in John 6? Of course I read and believe the Book of Acts....all Catholics do.
@gilbert4321 Why do you laugh instead of seriously thinking about the topic? Are you so superior to others you can just laugh and not address the topic? Does that honor the Father in heaven?
@gilbert4321 So....you believe nothing outside of the Bible.......how do you decide which books to include in your Bible? Whatever your conclusion on this matter is.....it is an extrabiblical conclusion and your premise that everything must come from the Bible is found wanting. Sola Scriptura doesnt work.
@prairiemark i'll pray for you. Man cannot be saved by man but only through the Holy Spirit to release them from the deception the enemies has on them. The ultimate question is do you serve God or Man.
@gilbert4321 I Tim 2:5.....There is ....one mediator between God and man....the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men......so I guess I can be saved by a man. However we know the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.....
@prairiemark Yes i agree that Jesus is the only mediator between man and the Father. I don't understand the relevance of the statement. Jesus wasn't a man he was the creator in human form of the trinity and that there is only one God not three. and fyi i'm not baptist that group has been known to have issues because allot of them are independent and become corrupt. Thats why all followers of Jesus must know the word to test them to make sure they are teaching the truth.
@gilbert4321 The relevence of the statement is that you said "man cannot be saved by man." The Bible and Historic Christianity as presented in the creeds says Jesus was a man. Fully God/Fully Man. If you deny that you are outside of historic Christianity. Most protestants would say that you must read more and more of the Bible to know Gods will.....and protestants have thousands of contradictory interpretations. The Church, not the Bible is the Pillar and Foundation of truth.....
@prairiemark Yea I'm done with your riddles. You take truth from what i say and use them for an attack worded differently to make it look like i meant something else when we had the same meanings. Seems like your not after the truth you just like to fight.
@gilbert4321 No Riddles...we cannot mess with the humanity of Christ and still have Christianity. No need to argue either. Look back at your comments, starting with the first one....they were argumentative and some were contradictory.....I wish you and people like you could learn to interact with Christians in a reasonable and amicable way.
@prairiemark The Church, not the Bible is the Pillar and Foundation of truth.....
Mark The Bible says no such thing. IN fact it says All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,Furthermore the Berians were commended for searching the scriptures daily to see if what Paul taught was true. We know only through scripture if a teacher is speaking the truth, or lies.
@RevGreen1 sorry that was aimed at Gilbert. But as for you, Prarie, THe Bible declares Jesus was man and God. Read Acts and Hebrews and while you're at it, all the OT and NT.
@RevGreen1 Of course Jesus was fully man and fully God. That is basic Christian theology defined at the 325A.D. Nicean council and even before......It is a Biblical and historic teaching of the Bible and the Church......why did you seek to instruct me on it?
@prairiemark Yes I apologised for instructing you on the Trinity, which I also believe inspite of the Nicean council, since the truth of it is evident in scripture. I had confused your post for another's.
@RevGreen1 I Tim 3:15 ...God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. I was directly refering to a Biblical passage which says that. Of course the written word of God is important....even essential, but nevertheless the church is the Pillar and Foundation of truth....... Look at the protestants who claim Sola Scriptura. In only a few hundred years they have developed thousands of sects and subsects.....and each says they are right.
@prairiemark The Church, irrespective of denomination is comprised of Christians who profess Christ as their Lord and Saviour, to put it simply. The Roman church is apostate, which is why there was a reformation. The Church is built on the blood of Christ, and Popery added to that the blood of the saints. So yes, the church is the pillar and foundation of truth because the saints profess the truth in Christ's salvation and his righteousness clothing them.
@RevGreen1 The Catholic church has defined orthodoxy for the whole church age. The creeds which state the basics of Christianity and defended Christian truth against Gnosticism, Arianism and other false teaching. Didnt you just state that the Bible did not say the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of truth? Then you realized that I was quoting from the Bible...Shouldnt one who claims to be a "Reverend" know what the pillar and foundation of Christian truth is?....
@prairiemark I'm not a reverand, I got the name from Cluedo. As a Christian I felt it to be apt. I know the RCC is not the pillar and foundation of Christian truth. True Christians have always resisted heresy, and that is why they have resisted the RCC since before Luther, if you consider the likes of Wycliffe, the Hugenouts and Baptists and others throughout history. Ye the RCC got some things right, but in order to deceive; else no one woiuld pray to the s'Saints', sing to them etc etc.
@RevGreen1 Baptists are a recently invented sect......the idea you can pick heretical sects from early church history and say they are forruners of Baptists just doesnt hold logical or historical water. ....Donnatists or Montanists are not Baptists and if Baptists knew what they believed they would not claim them.....
@prairiemark Baptists were around before the Reformation. Some sects were heretical, but that does not excuse the RCC from burning them at the stake. The point is that for centuries the RCC was so wrong and even until today she is, that one might wonder if she is not the Whore of Babylon. The description fits the Vatican very closely indeed. The RCC buried the Gospel centuries ago which is why people finally protested and reformed.
@RevGreen1 History of two kinds of Baptists.....Roger Williams founder of the first Baptist Church in North America was ordained in Church of England, then he became a Puritan, Later a Seperatist, Then a Baptist....he organized a Baptist church but soon had doctrinal arguements with them and left them to become a member of the Seekers....at every turn the Baptists were spliting...and fighting....he left at least four groups because of doctrinal fights....
@prairiemark Another sect of Baptists orginated from the Congregationalists.Darby was a congregationalist and he recieved a lot of information from visions of a schizophrenic woman....and he claimed to originate the "kingdom interuption" theory central to the the teaching of Schofield, and the founding of the Dallas Theological Seminary and Moody Bible institute. Followers of Darby became Plymouth Bretheren and Baptists..... no ancient creed layed down baptist theology. Baptists came later
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. And you say Peter is the rock, when it is Jesus who is the Rock. The RCC always denies the Lordship of God when it thinks it can elevate man to be the 'Vicar of Christ' when really Jesus is our mediator and high priest always interceding for us .
@prairiemark You dont seem to answer about things like this......you clearly accept some things on tradition and extrabiblical sources.....like the cannon of scripture.
@thetorvasal So if you were with Saul back then and god ordered you to do as well, you would kill infants? Oh but your conscious just now after reading that convicted you it was wrong, thus disproving your faith in god.
This is such bullshit. So a U.S. soldier who is not saved who "Lays down his life for his brother" and for a country founded on Christianity thus dying for its success is not going to heaven???? WOW. So some poor soldier gets brutally killed then stands before a god who tells him to get out of his sight spits on his deeds and then sends him back to the battle field or hell to get kill in punishment forever. Surly your consciousness is not at piece with this view. Nice loving god christians have
@1122stardust Hi...People go to hell, for one reason only - because their sin is unforgiven. Romans 3:23 - "for All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Thing is, if God gave us what we really "deserved" we'd all go to hell, because God's standard is Holy, we are profane in comparison. Dnt forget, ur life, as well as the soldier's is a gift from God, who can withdraw it whenever He wishes.
@vuci4111 So how is it just that god can send a sinner to hell forever when he only deserves time for his life worth? That is not justice. Maybe some time but not forever...God didnt ask his son, God himself murdered Jesus. What kind of father glorifies the murder and bloody gore of his own son? Like an evil dictator. If Christ took your sin away, why are you still sinning? Why do you feel guilt from time to time? Why will you give an account when christ is supposed to for you? Its false.
@1122stardust Hold on stardust, whr did u get that from? Cz Jesus Himself said in John10:18 "No one takes My life from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father (God). " OK, I still sin coz I live in a sinful body, therefore I need Christ daily to walk in righteousness. I will not give an account for my "sin" coz Christ DID, I will give an account for the way I used the gift of His Grace..It's Truth
@vuci4111 Isaiah 53:10 proves the bible is a contradiction with the vs. you provided. Isaiah 53:10 says" It was the will of the Lord to CRUSH him." See, Yaweh is a brutal father. Yet in the vs you provided Jesus commits suicide. What the fuck??? Which one is it? Why doesnt god just make you whole now so you dont sin?? Instead you say its your sin nature to explain why christ's impuned righteousness doesnt work after all. Why do you need christ daily if you are a NEW CREATION in christ?
@1122stardust Excellent Point...I don't quite know how to ans that 1st question. But I will say, at the end of the day, to refuse the most precious gift from God is ultimately the most offensive sin u can commit. In God offering Jesus to u, and U refusing God's Son whom God asked to be publicly disgraced for ur eternal benefit, equates to eternity in hell. Ur offense just became eternal, since Jesus(who is God the Son) is eternally (infinitely) good.
@vuci4111 When Adam sinned that was the most offensive sin he committed. God deemed it back then worthy of eternal separation in hell. So refusing jesus is not the ONLY sin to through you into hell forever. Meaning your point about jesus being the contingent is not true. sinning against god seems to be the point. So it is still unjust to send one to hell forever when a human can only sin for 80 yrs. give or take. 80 yrs. in hell should be all that is required to make right again. balance.
@1122stardust U dont understand the love of God.At all.Sacrifice of Christ paid in full for all sins of mankind,that is why he is pleased in that matter because its already paid for by innocent blood.
@MrUrosSrb I understand most certainly. I was a christian for 27 years until the contradictions started showing there ugly face. Let me ask you a basic question...why is christ PAYING for anything?? Doesnt god own and rule everything in the universe?? You think satan actually can steal(us) from god?? See if satan can steal us humans from god, then god really isnt in control, or he allows it thus being the soul perpetrator. Why does he blame us then if he allowed us to be stolen or deceived?
@1122stardust Ok.He pays for our sins to please the father,so that any1 who recieves Christ has his sins payed for already,if there were no Jesus sacrifice any1 with atleast 1 sin would go to Hell because thats the natural reaction of God to sin.Satan cant steal u if u are a believer,God doesnt blame u if u are decieved but u have ur mind to know Right from Wrong anyway.Its just through faith alone in Christ is salvation.
@1122stardust Oh, I said refusing Jesus is the "Most offensive" sin, not the "ONLY" sin...Christ is still the contingent though, because He made everything, so to sin against God is to sin against the Lamb (Which is why the Lamb is described as having wrath in the Revelation of JC). Offend a guy who offended you not, then refuse his offer to make peace with you after your offense....who can help you after that? I guess that makes no sense if you dont believe you offended him in the first place.
@1122stardust So the problem is our sins against God are so immense, so serious, and so horrendous that even if we gave our lives for Him, in service to Him, without being washed by the blood of the lamb(Jesus), He could never accept us. If u wanna know how insidious our sins are towards Him, look at the extreme measure He went through to give us a means to get to heaven...He asked His Son who is Holy and Pure like Him to suffer punishment and to die like an unrepentant sinner.
Yes God is loving, no that is not his only quality. God is also just, and he is holy. Sin goes against God, and because God is just, sin must be punished. But how does anyone get to Heaven? Romans 6:23 says it is a gift of God through Jesus Christ.
In your example you talk about a soldier. While what he did was great and honorable, we arent saved by works but by faith. Isaiah 64:6 shows that our best works are like filthy rags. It is by Faith in Christ we are saved, not works.
@eingram21 So you would feel comfortable at a soldier's funeral if asked, saying to the crowd as your duty to not feel ashamed of the gospel "If this man did not have christ in his heart, he and his sacrifice for us is burning in Hell. His sacrifice is as a bloody tampon. God is most disappointed with his bravery. It meant nothing to god" As you read this your conscious convicted you this is wrong!!! By god sending someone like that to hell he cant care for his great deed. Wake Up!!!
@1122stardust Yes, you are right, when you measure things on a scale that minimizes God, of course it seems as though all this is utter folly and insulting to the soldier. God is infinitely good, and Holy. Our finite measures of "Goodness" do not equate to God's holiness, which is required to enter heaven. It only promotes "PRIDE" in us, which, if u read scripture(Ezek28,Isaiah14) caused Lucifer to "FALL" out of heaven. Btw, if that's what it took to get to heaven, could u enter heaven?
@vuci4111 Not minimizing god. God seems to measure us on the same scale as him. "Be perfect as I am perfect." Ok so you believe that the soldiers sacrifice has merit to eternal life then. if not...HELL. If god's goodness is not as ours, how CAN we KNOW what good is?? How can he blame us then?? Lucifer in that vs. is actually reference to the king of Tyre symbolically "FALLING" from earthly power. Also, Lucifer means "light bearer", not personified devil or satan. Look all this up!!
@1122stardust I know what these verses say, come on. They are spoken to King of Tyre referencing also to Satan who was the Light Bearer in hev'n...these verses are generally accepted as referring to Satan by scholars (Chuck Missler). God's goodness is plain to us as bread, known even by our simple conscience (which God will use to judge those who hv not been under law (Romans2:15 ...who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness...
@vuci4111 HAHA, what proof does the conscious rely on to know for sure it is the christian god we are dealing with? Christian good or morality is common with other world religions. Same basic principals. How do you know for sure?? It might be true in the bible, but no one knows for sure the bible is THE truth. Just your bias. that has no proof or foundation. How can a vs refer to the King of Tyre and satan at the same time? Satan does not appear anywhere in the O.T. literally. He is Assumed..
@1122stardust Satan is named when David counts the people of Israël; from revelations it is said Snake is called "Satan", also the king of Tyre descibed a Cherub who was mighty but fell. It's the same like saying there is a red-coated guy with a white beard and a bunch of gifts coming from a deer-pulled chariot. And you then saying "Did he say he was santa claus? if not, then he totally isn't ".
@ElmerAwesome HAHA, remember satan means "adversary" This could be anyone in the human race, even angels act as adversaries as in Job when Job is attacked by a "satan" or angel of the lord. The King of Tyre was mighty and fell...It was Nebuchadnezzer that the passage is talking about. Not a personified Devil. Also, it appears to me and common sense that Rev. reinterpreted Gen to fit the devil back into ancient scripture to be the serpent. Why isnt he called serpent throughout scripture then?
@ElmerAwesome HAHA, remember satan means "adversary" This could be anyone in the human race, even angels act as adversaries as in Job when Job is attacked by a "satan" or angel of the lord. The King of Tyre was mighty and fell...It was Nebuchadnezzer that the passage is talking about. Not a personified Devil. Also, it appears to me and common sense that Rev. reinterpreted Gen to fit the devil back into ancient scripture to be the serpent. Why isnt he called serpent throughout scripture then?
@1122stardust Read Romans1:18 on, God holds us ALL accountable to knowing good from evil, and choosing evil over good WITH KNOWLEDGE of the existence of God means no one can escape with the excuse that they didn't know. Trust me, it won't be hard for God to find fault with us all, me included....Thanks be to God for Christ therefore, who will save you and me from our sin if we turn to Him. Romans 3:10 "There is none righteous, no, not one" Not that soldier, not you and not me...
@1122stardust The problem with your argument is that it is not based on the Bible. You are saying that your morals are of a higher level than God's, and that because you think it is wrong, so should God. I would not feel comfortable saying that at a funeral of a soldier, nor would i feel comfortable saying that about Hitler, but just because it is uncomfortable doesn't mean it is wrong. The fact that people die everyday is uncomfortable, but still entirely real.
@eingram21 If you still disagree with me, I would encourage you to challenge me based on the Bible, not your own opinion. Ephesians chapter 2 verse 8&9 "8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Please dont take this in anger, I am challenging you to have your foundation as the Bible, not leaning on your own understanding. (proverbs 3: 5-8) I am not doing this out of anger but love
@Palantinius Thanks for your insights on this subject. I have learned a lot by just communicating with you. Do you mind if i ask the church you go to? God bless.
@Palantinius I am trying to please God in every thought, word and action as well, but when I fail and get angry over something, your saying I will not see the kingdom of heaven, which is you trying to say that you never fail. If you do fail, then by your own doctrine your never going to heaven either. Im going to have to disagree with you and leave it at this. I know I am not saved by who I am, but by who Christ is. Romans 3:20, Romans 3:23-25,Galations 2:16... etc confirms this. God bless.
John Piper is awesome :)
starwinddennis 1 day ago
this guy knows almost nothing of what the bible actually teaches, amazing to me.
TruthBalance 2 days ago
why would baby goes to hell?
They have never sinned.
Jesus tells us to be like a child if we want to enter his kingdom, children are pure and innocent, as clean as they can get, they have never broken any God law to be guilty of sin....sin is transgression of the law.
eambrausa 3 days ago
@eambrausa sometime in the future children will eventually know the difference from right and wrong and they choose wrong they will commit sin but until then they are pure and innocent, sinless.
eambrausa 3 days ago
WTF How are people even discussing the fact that babies would go to hell no you can even leave open the slightest possibility no im glad its bullshit it horrible Your all fucked up for beliving in this stuff.
alexanderhulse 2 weeks ago
our creator is just in his judgments, we have an eternal creator with eternal consequences .you believe in the judge who would put you in jail for a few years for breaking a man made law dont you?now think of breaking the creators laws. Piper said that babies dont go to hell , that are not at the age of accountability. repent of your vulgarity or be held accountable Matthew 12:36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken
MrSlippin22 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Jesus said, “I am the truth and the life,” not I am the myth and the life. You cannot go to heaven if you believe in a myth, because you do not know the truth, and as Jesus says, you have to know the truth to get to heaven.
The truth is the only thing that can unite all human beings. It is what we all have in common, and that will never change.
Google 'Truth Contest' and open the entry called 'The Present'. Read what it says, and check the truth for yourself.
jzs1501 2 weeks ago
Baptist is not a requirment for salvation. If an indiviual accepts christ as their savior, and dies before baptism, the will be saved from hell. The reason is, salvation is BY GRACE ALONE. Baptism is simply a outward testemony to the change that happened in your life.
007eil 1 month ago
We are all born with sin, in Genesis it states that the seed of sin is passed down at the moment of conception. Babies are not held accountable for sin until they have reached the age of accountability. Thus When they are mentally capable of understanding salvation, they will be held accountable for the sin they were born with.
007eil 1 month ago
@007eil Didnt Jesus say "suffer the little children to come unto me?" The word he used refered to very young children not able to walk or talk. He didn't say "when they are mentally capable of understanding salvation they will be held accountable." That appears to be a manmade doctrine.
prairiemark 1 month ago
babies i think are saved because they are born without sin
Ericules555 1 month ago
@Ericules555 they are tho. all people are born into this world sinful, but piper is saying they're saved because the lord judges those who HAVE had a chance to profess He is God. So babies are saved because they did NOT HAVE a chance to do so. It's a little more complicated than what I said but, bottom line...
They are born with sin. We all inherit the sins of our fathers
ShonenWave 3 days ago
we must be baptized before death but do not wait to long or it might be to late
Ericules555 1 month ago
Piper misrepresents the beliefs of Catholics on Purgatory in this video. Catholics do not believe that purgatory is a "second chance" to be saved. All people who are in purgatory are saved from hell and will spend eternity with Jesus in heaven after they are purified. The New Testaments seems to make a distiction between the eternal fires of damnation and the fires of purification.
prairiemark 1 month ago
@prairiemark If we can be purified in purgatory, then why did Jesus have to die?
RocknForJesus 1 month ago
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RevGreen1 1 month ago
Isn't their a missing book of the modern bible that deals with this? I've read that you can pray for your dead ones to help their way to heaven. Also in that same book it says what ever sins you do are retained if you don't change them.
Get the bible with everything in it, like i SHOULD.
danielkirk1 1 month ago
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RevGreen1 1 month ago
@danielkirk1 There is no such book and in any case it would contradict the Gospel. Consider the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus for starters. If you don't repent and believe in the saving grace of Jesus in this life, you've set your condemnation. Nothing and no one can or will save you. Such a book would make a mockery of Calvary.
RevGreen1 1 month ago
@RevGreen1 Thank you i will study what you've mentioned. Of course, it was a rumour on some youtube video (one of those conspiracy ones). Bless you brother, thank you for helping me understand :)
danielkirk1 1 month ago
@danielkirk1 A pleasure! Glad to be of help and thanks for your response :)
RevGreen1 1 month ago
@danielkirk1 The Catholic Bible contains 6 books called the deuterocanonical books or apocrophal books. At least one of the them III Macabees contains information about purgatory.Purgatory is a place where saved people go that need purification before they enter heaven. Lost people go to hell when they die. These books were a part of almost all the translations of the Bible for hundreds of years until after 1500 when Protestants removed them.
prairiemark 1 month ago
@prairiemark Actaully as far as I am aware the apocrypha was added in the counter reformation. There is no Purgatory, never has been, never will be, for as RockforJesus so aptly asks, if we can be purified by Purgatory Jesus need never have died. We find in the wholeness of scripture: But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. There is no more need for sacrifice because Christ paid in full.
RevGreen1 1 month ago
@RevGreen1 The translations of the Bible before the reformation contained the apocryphal books. They were removed in some protestant translations after 1600. They had been a part of the Bible for hundreds of year. Many of the early reformers like Wycliffe believed in purgatory....it was a part of Judiasm before Christ. The Bible does not say "if we can be purified by purgatory then Jesus need ever have died. Purgatory is not for lost persons, it is for saved persons only.C
prairiemark 1 month ago
@danielkirk1 I am not sure what you are refering to here, but some of the Apocropahl books that the Protestants removed after 1600 A.D. had been part of the Bible for hundreds of years before that time. Catholics Bibles do still contain them just like the ancient Bibles did. They do talk about Purgatory. Please be careful who you listen to. Some people misrepresent themselves. RevGreen for example is a punk 20 year old kid posing as an ordained minister. I talked to him about his dishonesty.
prairiemark 1 month ago
We on earth pray for each other, not to each other. It is irrational to suppose a person in heaven can hear a load of prayers, and even less answer them. It is to God we pray, and we pray FOR others and ourselves. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus, and all scripture demands that we have our eyes on him. The pattern of saints on earth delivering prayers to those in Heaven other than God is necromancy, see what necromancy is. We are not instructed to pray TO any other than God
RevGreen1 1 month ago
@RevGreen1 Well communication breaks down when we take the liberty to use words with our private definition...whether the words be necromancy or pagan. You make your own definitions that are not in line with historic use...You misunderstand what I am saying and what Catholics believe. If the saints deliver the prayers to God as is pictured in Revelation 5..the prayers are going to God When we ask another Christian to pray for us...we are making a request similar to what we make to the Saints.
prairiemark 1 month ago
@prairiemark Yes I don't say we shouldn't ask each other, I am saying we cannot ask of the 'dead'. It is not good. And my definition is correct. Look hard, usually necromancy is to seek the future sight, but not only, it's the purpose especially. Rev 5 doesn't teach us to pray to saints. It teaches us that men are in heaven and serve the Lord.
RevGreen1 1 month ago
@RevGreen1 The Bible does of course teach that saints in heaven deliver the prayers of saints on earth to the God.If this were wrong it would have been stated so.Thanks for interacting with me. I dont have time to continue with the same subject.You are young and have a lot to learn as we all do.You believe a lot of right things...like no one comes the father except through Jesus..and the importance of keeping our eyes on him. There are a lot of traditions that will close your mind...beware.
prairiemark 1 month ago
I would recommend you read what I say. I know that the prayers of the saints are like incense. IT is you who has to search in vain for the BIble to teach prayers offered to the saints are like incense to the Lord. It stinks, I think there can be no doubt, that idolators should offer prayers to the saints. Nowhere does the Bible teach it. It seems to me the indoctrination is on your side. I read the Bible for what it does and doesn't say.
RevGreen1 1 month ago
@RevGreen1 Oh ye and I suggest you look up the definition of necromancy is, for that is what you practice when you pray to the 'Saints'.
RevGreen1 1 month ago
@RevGreen1 I doubt if the elders in heaven are participating in necromancy. Necromancy is defined as "conjuring up the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future." So the Biblical pattern of saints on earth delivering prayers to God through the saints in heaven is of course not necromancy. Please read the Bible for with it does and doesnt say....to use your words.
prairiemark 1 month ago
@prairiemark Where in all the BIble are we taught to pray to saints in heaven? Where in all the OT is there a lesson, even just the Psalms, to pray to the Patriarchs? Nowhere. Now if the Lord hears all my prayers as I am believing in Jesus for my righteousness, why should I pray to a saint? How would someone in heaven hear me?The Bible tellsus that the angels work day and night assisting in our salvation, but there is no command to pray to them! Where are we taught to pray to saints?
RevGreen1 1 month ago
@RevGreen1 Praise the Lord from the heavens....Praise him all his angels, praise him all his heavenly hosts. The Psalmist makes requests to the angels.
prairiemark 1 month ago
@RevGreen1 Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his heavenly hosts.....The Psalmists took it upon themselves to make requests to the Angels.
prairiemark 1 month ago
@RevGreen1 Which verses are you refering to where "The Bible tells us that the angels work night and day assisting in our salvation?
prairiemark 1 month ago
@prairiemark That's enlightening, I can't find the verse. Haven't seen it for ages, must have been a poor recall. Sorry about that. Anyway, regarding the angels, the psalmist calls them to praise, he doesn't call on them to curry personal favour. Anyway if you want to live in cloud cuckoo land thinking the saints are able to carry your praise and prayers that's your loss. Even as a child I could see praying to saints wasting and far inferior than speaking directly to my Lord.
RevGreen1 1 month ago
@RevGreen1 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
With verses like this, who needs to pray to the saints in heaven? And Paul would rebuke you if you consider the Christians boasting as to whom baptised whom.
RevGreen1 1 month ago
@RevGreen1 If you take your view to its logical conclusion then we would have not need to ask saints on earth or in heaven to pray for us. We can pray directly to God...so why obey him when he says to participate in intercessory prayer. Thanks for your responses. Perhaps we can talk again if you consider some of the issues in light of the whole Bible.
prairiemark 1 month ago
I don't see any point in continuing this discussion. You simply take a verse and build a theology around it, just as Mormon's do. For example they take one line in the Bible, "I called you gods", and they think they'll one day be a God. You treat the 'Saints' as objects of worship, there can be no doubt, You are simply in denial. Christians pray to God, and God alone. As Jesus said, "You have a fine way of putting aside the things of God for the sake of your traditions."
RevGreen1 1 month ago
You show no example. You are clutching at straws. Look at the Rev 18 song, it is from heaven. Look at the prayer passed to Jesus in the censure, it is simply someone passing an item that belongs to the Lord, else it would not be incense to him. It is you who needs to understand the reality of the idolatry the RCC teaches. It is not sanctioned in the Bible,
RevGreen1 1 month ago
Look back at your posts. You absolutely denied that there were examples in the Bible of anyone praying to a saint in heaven. And I dont know if it is honest to say that a saint in heaven delivering prayers to God from saints on earth is "simply someone passing an item." It is exactly what you denied ever happened. How many more areas of your faith are wrong and unbiblical because of following non-biblical man made traditions?
prairiemark 1 month ago
Why would God consider the prayers to the 'Saints' be like incense when Jesus is our mediator? I'd like to know what non-biblical man made traditions are that I follow, except I don't see the 'Saints' to be in a position to hear hundreds of prayers directed to them, let alone thousands and don't even see the 'Saints' to be a class of person that you do! I don't see the point in hoping a 'Saint' can hear me, when the Lord always hears me.
RevGreen1 1 month ago
@RevGreen1 I would recommend you look through the Bible and consider the number of times where the prayers of the saints are considered to be incense to God. Look at the structure of the worship in the tabernacle and look at the psalms where prayers of the saints are like incense. I am not sure what you are getting at but it seems like you are heavily indoctrinated on some of these issues...so it is hard to see the meaning of scripture.
prairiemark 1 month ago
I personally believe there are missing books that are required to know about this question. I can't think of any instance where it even hints new borns can go to hell. That is injustice because they didn't have a chance to prove to god how they would of served him. I believe also they are accounted as 'pure good' because i believe their whole purpose is to change the life of the parents who had the baby. Everything happens for a reason, even the unexplained.
danielkirk1 1 month ago
@danielkirk1 A historic doctrine of Christianity is the doctrine of original sin. We are born sinful. We sin because we are sinful, we are not sinful because we sin. Much of modern evangelicalism has succumbed to the Pelagian heresy.....believing that humans are born neutral and that they can choose to follow God or not follow God. We are born with a will that will reject God unless enlightened by the Holy Spirit.
prairiemark 1 month ago
@prairiemark So what are you telling me? God send babies to hell? Doubt it. Let's remember god can do anything he wants. If he wanted to he could take away hell and destroy everything he has made. God isn't limited to his own rules for us.
danielkirk1 1 month ago
@danielkirk1 I dont know what happens to unbaptized babies. I like Luther beleive this is one of the mysteries of God that we cannot know. But God would be just if he sent all of the human race into seperation from himself. We are a fallen race. And....God cannot do anything....he cannot contradict himself....or his character. He is a just God. He does what is just and good.
prairiemark 1 month ago
The prayers of the saints are apparently like incesence to the Lord and kept in bowls. There is no point in praying for the dead, so Wesley was mistaken. The dead are either with the Lord or locked outside.
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 You make all these absolute theological statements that are not supported By the Bible. Here is another one "There is no point in praying for the dead." One thing to think about is that God is not locked in time. He lives in the eternal present as far as time goes. He can hear a prayer given for someone before it is given. If it is given after death, God knows about it when the person is still living. Be careful when you make statements that limit the omniscience of God.
prairiemark 1 month ago
@RevGreen1 The book of Revelation is not meant to be understood literally. I doubt if prayers are kept in literal bowls or vials. But the importance of this passage is that Saints in heaven deliver the prayers to God. A biblical fact that many deny.
prairiemark 1 month ago
@prairiemark Of course it is denied, it is because there is no call for us to pray to the dead. As I said, it is necromancy; you don't want it to be but that is what necromancy is. It follows after Pagan traditions, and that is what the Roman church has become, a bastion for pagan rituals and traditions. As Jesus said to the Pharisees, "You have a fine way of putting aside the things of God for the sake of your traditions."
RevGreen1 1 month ago
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and ... let's fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God
What has this to do with praying to the dead? It is speaking of emulating the faith of those before us.
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 If I understood you right, you said flat out that saints in heaven cannot hear us. I know of no verse in the Bible that says that. However it does seem that they see us....if we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark So we know they see us....and they carry the prayers of saints on earth to God....Rev 5:8....Isnt is reasonable they can know what we are saying then?
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark We don;t know they can see us? The cloud of witnesses were those who lived in faith as we should! That is the witness, not that they look down from heaven at us! It is totally unreasonable to pray to the dead. And there is no biblical teaching for it. Best you can do is twist scripture. The cloud of witnesses were those who lived faithfully and we are to emulate them. That as I said before is what the passage is about.
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 You speak with such authority on the scriptures! But where do you get the information for your hermeuntical gymnatiscs? Isnt a witness someone who observes something?
prairiemark 1 month ago
@prairiemark What hermeuntical gymnastics? I don't make up a plethora of doctrines based on one verse! Nowhere in all the BIble is there a precedent to pray to or for the dead. Nowhere at all. So one verse that related someone passing a censure to the Lord does not mean the incense belonged to the saint, only that the Lord wanted to enjoy the prayers of the saints. It is ridiculous to suppose the saints hear prayers and praise given to them by idolatrous people on earth.
RevGreen1 1 month ago
@RevGreen1 A cloud of witnesses had a universal meaning in English....it is a group of people who see something........You said there is nowhere in the Bible that anyone prays for the dead. I mentioned the Rev 5:8 where the saints in heaven pass the prayers of the saints on earth to God. That seems like an example to me, but you reject it. How about Rev 18 contains another example of people on earth praying to apostles and prophets in heaven.....
prairiemark 1 month ago
@prairiemark Rev 18....about the fall of Babylon. The and shipmasters and all the sailors and the marinors rejoice...and call for rejoicing in heaven too! vs 20.....Rejoice over her, thou heaven and ye holy apostles and prophets, for God hath judged your judgmento on her....... You say there is no Biblical precedent to pray to or for the dead...(two seperate subjects)....but here are two examples that shows what you say is simply wrong. Tradition causes us to ignore Biblical teaching.
prairiemark 1 month ago
@prairiemark Calling for all heaven to rejoice is not actually praying to the dead.
And the call is a generic one without bestowing demigod status on so-called 'Saints'. Again you draw a complete doctrine on the assumption of a verse teaching something that it does not teach. For a start narrating that song is a heavenly being, not men on earth calling for the apostles to rejoice.
RevGreen1 1 month ago
@RevGreen1 You are not following our conversation. I did not "draw a complete doctrine" from an assumption here.I merely pointed out your assumption was wrong. You said several times there are no examples of saints on earth praying to saints in heaven. I showed you two examples and you accuse me of "drawing a complete doctrine." I merely showed that what you said was absolute Biblical truth was not and your assumptions were wrong. If you could relax perhaps we could have a rational discourse.
prairiemark 1 month ago
@prairiemark Rev 5:8 says they passed the bowls of the prayers of the saints to the Lord. It doesn't say they were prayed to or that they could hear every prayer offered to them! You are simply not realistic nor biblical. Nowhere, as I say, are we taught to pray to the dead or to anyone other than God, whether it be Father, Son or Holy Spirit. Rev 5:8 rather more says men will be in the presence of the Lord and serve Him directly there.
RevGreen1 2 months ago 2
@RevGreen1 So the prayers of the saints on earth are kept in a literal bowl? .......Wesley said that it was at least as important to pray for the dead as for the living.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 You make the point of Catholic theology very well! We do not pray TO the Saints as if they are the object of our worship. They deliver the prayers to God.
prairiemark 1 month ago
Piper misunderstands Catholic teaching. Catholics do not believe that purgatory is a "second" chance. At about 0:50 he expresses this belief about Catholics. Catholics believe all persons in Purgatory are saved.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 If you read Catholic catechism you will find that catholics believe that Christ is One Mediator between God and man.
I have suffered reading the Catechism, and confessions to priests for the absolvement of sin is not teaching Christ is the mediator, it is teaching the priest is the mediator since he deals out the penance. And that which is entirely unnecessary if only the Vatican would know it.
RevGreen1 2 months ago
One authority writes: The first known Baptist Congregation was formed by a number of these fleeing separatists in Amsterdam, Holland in 1608.
All depends who and why you listen. The point is the RCC has been a bad apple for centuries and put down any one who disputed the Gospel with her. The Popes have been evil, even until today they teach you Maryism and Purgatory. She is not the foundation and pillar of truth. She buried such things long ago
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 You said it "All depends who and why you listen."I eventually found out that the church history I learned at an anabaptist Bible College was not only skewed, but woefully lacking. When I was still an anabaptists fundamentalist a kind Cathlic asked me to compare the faith of the apostles and the early church fathers first with the Baptists and then with the Catholics and then decide which it was more like...I did and woe is me....fist and second century Christianity was Catholic!
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark Well you are sadly mistaken. The Bible doesn't teach to pray to the past saints anywhere. Neither does it distinguish the saint from the layman. You are either a saint or you don't belong to God, there is no inbetween. The Bible does not teach Purgatory or that Mary is the bestower of graces. Yet the Catholic tells us her traditions were taught by the apostles! Your personal testimony doesn't tell me anything about you, except you are decieved even by a 'kind Catholic'.
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 The New Testament does seem to distinguish between the eternal fires of punishment in hell and the fires of purification or refinement.....and of course III Macabees teaches about purgatory and it was and accepted belief in OT Judiaism. Likewise in Revelation there are examples of Saints in heaven offering up prayers delivered by saints on earth. Rev 5:8 Actually many protestants during and after the reformation believed in praying to saints and for the dead.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark The NT is replete about the Holy SPirit cleansing us and purifiying us from sin. That has nothing to do with Purgatory. It was not accepted in the OT anywhere. Rev says the saints passed the bowls of prayers to the Lord, it does not say they gave prayers offered to them to Jesus. The saints cannot hear you, they are no omnipresent, and to suppose they do miraculous stuff for you is idolatry.
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 Word count is limited and it must be said actually communing with the spirits of the dead is necromancy which the Bible condemns.
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 The saints in heaven delivering the prayers of the saints on earth as illustrated in Rev 5 is in no way necromancy...what twist of hermeneutics gives you that idea?True the saints in heaven are not God, and are not omnipresent....but that doesnt mean they cannot hear us.That is a non sequitor.They are spoken of as a great cloud of witnesses....so apparently they can see us.If we examine your beliefs about Catholics we find a lot of false suppositions and a lack of Biblical support.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark And what is your definition of necormancy? Samuel was a prophet, yet Saul sinned grievously by having a witch commune with him. and you sin grievously praying the saints bless your bed you lie on. It is necromancy and idolatry. It is grievous.
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 Here again we must appeal to Biblical authority and not to human tradition or reason. If the saints in heaven before God practice it....it is not a grievious sin...or idolatry. View like this show that protestants ultimately do not hold the Bible as the final authority.....but traditions non biblical traditions they were taught.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark The whole point is no one practiced it in the Bible. It is your tradition that you seem to need to because you actually have no faith in Jesus, you want to get round him and twist the ear of another to advocate for you. Goodnight!
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 Sorry guy, you have not right to say I have no faith in Jesus because I differ with you on some theological point. Perhaps you should read about all the great protestant heros that believed in praying to the saints. Many during the reformation and evangelists like John and Charles Wesley hundreds of years later. Did they have "no faith in Jesus" Catholics dont try to "get around Jesus" by praying to saints.....it is like the Rev 5 passages says....the prayers get to God
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark Jesus commanded us to pray to God. If you feel you cannot get something from God in Jesus' name why go to someone you perceive to be a saint? I haven't read anywhere that Wesley prayed to saints. Even if he did I wouldn't. Nowhere in the Bible are we taugfht to pray to anyone but God, for to go to another is idolatry. I have every right to question your faith as you are yet to prove any one of your doctrines.
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 There are a lot of things you likely havent read about Wesley....he also prayed for the dead and had a fairly well developed Maryology. You have strong opionions on so many things you dont know about. You said the Bible didnt say that the "Church was the pillar and foundation of truth." You flat out denied that the Bible said that. You said that saints do not hear us. What is your Biblical support for that? You didnt say you believed it to be trueyou stated it as a fact.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark What Wesley did or didn't do is irrelevent. If he did wrong he did wrong! I did not flat out deny the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, my intent was to say what do You mean by this, for Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. I knew you meant the RCC was the foundation and pillar and it is that I intended to deny.
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 Most Christians find Biblical support for intercessory prayer. Is this a lack of faith? Do we ask others to pray for us because we cannot get something from God in Jesus' name? Christ is the one great mediator between God and Man....yet he recognizes lesser intercessors. You take such strident positions with apparently little or no thought of the Biblical principles.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark Intercessory prayer with the living, Not the dead! I have every thought of biblical principles! You can't prove any of your stuff from the Bible. All I can do with your arguments is point out there are no biblical precedents for what you are teaching!
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 The Holy Spirit powers us. The Blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us...although the role of each person in the trinity is closely related. Where in the Old Testament does it say that Purgatory was not accepted? I think you just threw that in. Actually it seems to me the state of the afterlife is somewhat dim and poorly defined in the O.T. And....how do vials or bowls of prayers offered to the Lord by saints in heaven differ from offering prayers for them?
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark Macabees was never scripture, the only reason the RCC added the book at Trent, which condemns all Protestants, was to fit their shaky theology of Purgatory. There is no reason or need for Purgatory as the believer is made new in the Holy Spirit. We are washed, sanctified and made new in Christ Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit not some halfway house as Purgatory!
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 I, like you was taught many false things about the Catholic church. In my pride and arrogance it took decades before I would investigate each item one by one. So many fundamentalists throw a bunch of "stuff" against the wall about Catholics.....one liners they think will stick...but if you investigate each one they fall away....one by one....untill you realize you have what you want and need in the Catholic Church.....Historic Biblical Christianity.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark No one taught me about the RCC except Catholics and their Catechism! I have no need of the RCC, she is a whore. I hate her doctrines. I have Historic Biblical Christianity, I don't need Popes to tell me I need them to come to Jesus. I believe the things the Apostles taught as we find in the Bible, that is historic Christianity. Historically the Vatican has been a beast.
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 Protestants say they need no one to help them understand the Bible. But look at the history of the Protestant churches....only 1/4 of church history occured since the reformation yet literally thousands of sects, and subsects have started by people holding a Bible in their hand and saying they have Gods eternal truth. When I was a protestant I went through at least three church splits in my limited experience...and each time both sides held up that Bible and said it was their guide.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 We could go on and on. I have other time commitments......I wish you well. Keep learning, keep searching for more truth in Gods Word. And keep learning about early Christian saints from reliable sources.....Goodnight.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 Jude 22 says to "have mercy on the doubter." Doubters seem to be a different class than those who reject Gods truth....perhaps they are "pre-Christians"....not yet fully converted. In a way...they are "in between." You make so many statements with full confidence...yet when compared with scripture....they seem very uncertain...or even wrong.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark What scripture? Where in the BIble are we taught to pray to the dead? We are told not to commune wit the dead. Where in the Bible are we told to sing praises to the saints? We are told to worship God alone. Where is the Catholic Church the pillar and foundation of truth when her traditions supercede scripture? No, you have not shown any scriptures to support your superstitions. I am trying to be kind.
RevGreen1 2 months ago
The only afterlife is the life of the maggots. Saw an interview on TV of an Anglican bishop. Somebody in the audience asked; Monsignor, do you believe in an afterlife, and if so what is the evidence. Reply: I don`t know if there is an afterlife. Nobody ever returned from the dead. But I believe in god`s love, he will take care of this problem(sic)
ndzoko 2 months ago
Sounds like that bishop doesn't have any faith. If one doesn't believe the words of the bible he isn't a Christian but a fraud (false teacher)
gilbert4321 2 months ago
@gilbert4321 The bible is one of the greatest accumulations of nonsense ever assembled by man.
ndzoko 2 months ago
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The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. God's love & mercy endures forever. Does it really endure forever or only in this life? How can it be Good News if it doesn't translate to the afterlife? God will still judge but He will not punish forever. He's a better father than we are, right?
1 Tim 4:10 This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 4 months ago
Rob Bell is currently stomping his feet beating his fists on his desk after watching this video.
33AlterEgo33 4 months ago 2
Piper misunderstands Catholic theology. Purgatory is only for saved people, not for those who "need a second chance." Many prominent protestant pastors dont understand Catholic belief, yet they feel the need to comment anyway.
prairiemark 4 months ago
@prairiemark Purgatory was made up by the catholic church. There's no biblical support for it.
gilbert4321 2 months ago
@gilbert4321 Hmmm......the books of the Bible were pretty much constant for over a thousand years until the reformation....when the apocryphol books were removed.....and of course those books refered to purgatory.Other books in the NT hint of it.But the point I was making here was not about the biblical support or broad acceptance of purgatory in church history, but that Piper seems to misunderstand catholic belief. Protestants often comment on Catholic belief without understanding.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@gilbert4321 Belief in purgatory actually precedes the Christian era ....Judiasm included such a belief before the Birth of Christ. In early church history Iraneous believed and wrote of it in the 2nd century. Augstine distinguished between the eternal fire of damnation in hell and purifying fire spoken of in the New Testament. I might not hurt to look at the historical and Biblical records before you comment.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark You didn't quote a single verse there...
gilbert4321 2 months ago
@gilbert4321 You said Catholics invented Purgatory....I mentioned Judiasm taught it a long time before the Christian era. Do your homework....dont expect me to do it for you. So many evangelicals spout ignorance and think they are somehow exempt from the Biblical requirement to study to show yourself a workman that doesnt need to be ashamed.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark I just want to make sure were talking about the same thing. Hell and Purgatory are 2 completely different things. Catholics believe that before you go to heaven you go thought a ceartan time of punishment to make up for your sins but this states that Jesus sacrifice wasn't enough for our sins which is blasphemy
gilbert4321 2 months ago
@gilbert4321 Catholics believe that the guilt of your sins are completely paid for by Christs dead.....but there are still times when we have a penalty for our sins. All the people in purgatory are saved. I would encourage you to lok at the beliefs of the early church fathers and not just 20th or 21st century protestant views. What did the church believe throught the centuries of church history and what verses did they look at?
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark I'm sorry I refuse to believe anything outside of the word of God. It's easy for a church to start new teachings back in those days because normal people didn't have access to the bible and religious leaders could tell the people anything they wanted to.
gilbert4321 2 months ago
@gilbert4321 You already have said you believe several things that are outside of the Bible. For instance....the books included in the Bible are an extrabiblical issue. Nowhere is there a comprehensive list in the Bible that says which books are to be included in the Bible. This is an extrabiblical issue.......and in the last 500 years many have changed the list of books included in the Bible. Sola Scriptura does not work.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark The same God who inspired the holy prophets and apostles to write the correct words of God also helped the various councils choose which books to include in the Bible as it was assembled some time later. Individual persons are entitled to pick and chose to include or omit books they may not like.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@gilbert4321 G.K. Chesterton in his classic defense of historic Christiantiy- "Orthodoxy"-he speaks of the two enemies of Christianity-the Bible Worshipers and the Bible Bashers.The Bible worshipers seek to destroy all of Christianity that is not the Bible...the Traditions, the Creeds, the Liturgy, the Church structure. They create institutions of higher learning advocating this view-then what happens?The Bible Bashers step in with Higher Criticism and Bash the Bible-What is left?An empty bag!
prairiemark 2 months ago
@gilbert4321 Evangelicals usually follow their leaders and dont even know that what they believe is a much different faith than the faith of the apostles and church Fathers. I challenge you to study the writings of St Ignatius of Antioch and ask yourself if what he believed is more like a Baptist or a Catholic. He was a friend, a disciple, and later a co-worker with St John the Apostle......He believed in the Real Presence of Christ at Communion.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark lol? i challenge you to read the book of acts. Catholics are nothing like the first church.
gilbert4321 2 months ago
@gilbert4321 I came kicking and screaming against my will from Baptist fundamentalism to Catholicism over many years largely based on historical evidence. Have you ever read St Ignatius and compared it to St John the Apostles writing in John 6? Of course I read and believe the Book of Acts....all Catholics do.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@gilbert4321 Why do you laugh instead of seriously thinking about the topic? Are you so superior to others you can just laugh and not address the topic? Does that honor the Father in heaven?
prairiemark 2 months ago
@gilbert4321 So....you believe nothing outside of the Bible.......how do you decide which books to include in your Bible? Whatever your conclusion on this matter is.....it is an extrabiblical conclusion and your premise that everything must come from the Bible is found wanting. Sola Scriptura doesnt work.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark i'll pray for you. Man cannot be saved by man but only through the Holy Spirit to release them from the deception the enemies has on them. The ultimate question is do you serve God or Man.
gilbert4321 2 months ago
Comment removed
prairiemark 2 months ago
@gilbert4321 I Tim 2:5.....There is ....one mediator between God and man....the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men......so I guess I can be saved by a man. However we know the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.....
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark Yes i agree that Jesus is the only mediator between man and the Father. I don't understand the relevance of the statement. Jesus wasn't a man he was the creator in human form of the trinity and that there is only one God not three. and fyi i'm not baptist that group has been known to have issues because allot of them are independent and become corrupt. Thats why all followers of Jesus must know the word to test them to make sure they are teaching the truth.
gilbert4321 2 months ago
@gilbert4321 The relevence of the statement is that you said "man cannot be saved by man." The Bible and Historic Christianity as presented in the creeds says Jesus was a man. Fully God/Fully Man. If you deny that you are outside of historic Christianity. Most protestants would say that you must read more and more of the Bible to know Gods will.....and protestants have thousands of contradictory interpretations. The Church, not the Bible is the Pillar and Foundation of truth.....
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark Yea I'm done with your riddles. You take truth from what i say and use them for an attack worded differently to make it look like i meant something else when we had the same meanings. Seems like your not after the truth you just like to fight.
gilbert4321 2 months ago
@gilbert4321 No Riddles...we cannot mess with the humanity of Christ and still have Christianity. No need to argue either. Look back at your comments, starting with the first one....they were argumentative and some were contradictory.....I wish you and people like you could learn to interact with Christians in a reasonable and amicable way.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark You might want to reconsider your last statement.
kp51o 2 months ago
@prairiemark The Church, not the Bible is the Pillar and Foundation of truth.....
Mark The Bible says no such thing. IN fact it says All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,Furthermore the Berians were commended for searching the scriptures daily to see if what Paul taught was true. We know only through scripture if a teacher is speaking the truth, or lies.
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 sorry that was aimed at Gilbert. But as for you, Prarie, THe Bible declares Jesus was man and God. Read Acts and Hebrews and while you're at it, all the OT and NT.
Mark
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 Of course Jesus was fully man and fully God. That is basic Christian theology defined at the 325A.D. Nicean council and even before......It is a Biblical and historic teaching of the Bible and the Church......why did you seek to instruct me on it?
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark Yes I apologised for instructing you on the Trinity, which I also believe inspite of the Nicean council, since the truth of it is evident in scripture. I had confused your post for another's.
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 I Tim 3:15 ...God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. I was directly refering to a Biblical passage which says that. Of course the written word of God is important....even essential, but nevertheless the church is the Pillar and Foundation of truth....... Look at the protestants who claim Sola Scriptura. In only a few hundred years they have developed thousands of sects and subsects.....and each says they are right.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark The Church, irrespective of denomination is comprised of Christians who profess Christ as their Lord and Saviour, to put it simply. The Roman church is apostate, which is why there was a reformation. The Church is built on the blood of Christ, and Popery added to that the blood of the saints. So yes, the church is the pillar and foundation of truth because the saints profess the truth in Christ's salvation and his righteousness clothing them.
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 The Catholic church has defined orthodoxy for the whole church age. The creeds which state the basics of Christianity and defended Christian truth against Gnosticism, Arianism and other false teaching. Didnt you just state that the Bible did not say the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of truth? Then you realized that I was quoting from the Bible...Shouldnt one who claims to be a "Reverend" know what the pillar and foundation of Christian truth is?....
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark I'm not a reverand, I got the name from Cluedo. As a Christian I felt it to be apt. I know the RCC is not the pillar and foundation of Christian truth. True Christians have always resisted heresy, and that is why they have resisted the RCC since before Luther, if you consider the likes of Wycliffe, the Hugenouts and Baptists and others throughout history. Ye the RCC got some things right, but in order to deceive; else no one woiuld pray to the s'Saints', sing to them etc etc.
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 Baptists are a recently invented sect......the idea you can pick heretical sects from early church history and say they are forruners of Baptists just doesnt hold logical or historical water. ....Donnatists or Montanists are not Baptists and if Baptists knew what they believed they would not claim them.....
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark Baptists were around before the Reformation. Some sects were heretical, but that does not excuse the RCC from burning them at the stake. The point is that for centuries the RCC was so wrong and even until today she is, that one might wonder if she is not the Whore of Babylon. The description fits the Vatican very closely indeed. The RCC buried the Gospel centuries ago which is why people finally protested and reformed.
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 History of two kinds of Baptists.....Roger Williams founder of the first Baptist Church in North America was ordained in Church of England, then he became a Puritan, Later a Seperatist, Then a Baptist....he organized a Baptist church but soon had doctrinal arguements with them and left them to become a member of the Seekers....at every turn the Baptists were spliting...and fighting....he left at least four groups because of doctrinal fights....
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark Another sect of Baptists orginated from the Congregationalists.Darby was a congregationalist and he recieved a lot of information from visions of a schizophrenic woman....and he claimed to originate the "kingdom interuption" theory central to the the teaching of Schofield, and the founding of the Dallas Theological Seminary and Moody Bible institute. Followers of Darby became Plymouth Bretheren and Baptists..... no ancient creed layed down baptist theology. Baptists came later
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark And let's get context: 1 Timothy 3:15 NIV
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. And you say Peter is the rock, when it is Jesus who is the Rock. The RCC always denies the Lordship of God when it thinks it can elevate man to be the 'Vicar of Christ' when really Jesus is our mediator and high priest always interceding for us .
RevGreen1 2 months ago
@RevGreen1 If you read Catholic catechism you will find that catholics believe that Christ is One Mediator between God and man.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@prairiemark You dont seem to answer about things like this......you clearly accept some things on tradition and extrabiblical sources.....like the cannon of scripture.
prairiemark 2 months ago
@thetorvasal So if you were with Saul back then and god ordered you to do as well, you would kill infants? Oh but your conscious just now after reading that convicted you it was wrong, thus disproving your faith in god.
1122stardust 5 months ago
This is such bullshit. So a U.S. soldier who is not saved who "Lays down his life for his brother" and for a country founded on Christianity thus dying for its success is not going to heaven???? WOW. So some poor soldier gets brutally killed then stands before a god who tells him to get out of his sight spits on his deeds and then sends him back to the battle field or hell to get kill in punishment forever. Surly your consciousness is not at piece with this view. Nice loving god christians have
1122stardust 5 months ago
@1122stardust Hi...People go to hell, for one reason only - because their sin is unforgiven. Romans 3:23 - "for All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Thing is, if God gave us what we really "deserved" we'd all go to hell, because God's standard is Holy, we are profane in comparison. Dnt forget, ur life, as well as the soldier's is a gift from God, who can withdraw it whenever He wishes.
vuci4111 5 months ago
@vuci4111 So how is it just that god can send a sinner to hell forever when he only deserves time for his life worth? That is not justice. Maybe some time but not forever...God didnt ask his son, God himself murdered Jesus. What kind of father glorifies the murder and bloody gore of his own son? Like an evil dictator. If Christ took your sin away, why are you still sinning? Why do you feel guilt from time to time? Why will you give an account when christ is supposed to for you? Its false.
1122stardust 5 months ago
@1122stardust Hold on stardust, whr did u get that from? Cz Jesus Himself said in John10:18 "No one takes My life from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father (God). " OK, I still sin coz I live in a sinful body, therefore I need Christ daily to walk in righteousness. I will not give an account for my "sin" coz Christ DID, I will give an account for the way I used the gift of His Grace..It's Truth
vuci4111 5 months ago
@vuci4111 Isaiah 53:10 proves the bible is a contradiction with the vs. you provided. Isaiah 53:10 says" It was the will of the Lord to CRUSH him." See, Yaweh is a brutal father. Yet in the vs you provided Jesus commits suicide. What the fuck??? Which one is it? Why doesnt god just make you whole now so you dont sin?? Instead you say its your sin nature to explain why christ's impuned righteousness doesnt work after all. Why do you need christ daily if you are a NEW CREATION in christ?
1122stardust 5 months ago
@1122stardust Excellent Point...I don't quite know how to ans that 1st question. But I will say, at the end of the day, to refuse the most precious gift from God is ultimately the most offensive sin u can commit. In God offering Jesus to u, and U refusing God's Son whom God asked to be publicly disgraced for ur eternal benefit, equates to eternity in hell. Ur offense just became eternal, since Jesus(who is God the Son) is eternally (infinitely) good.
vuci4111 5 months ago
@vuci4111 When Adam sinned that was the most offensive sin he committed. God deemed it back then worthy of eternal separation in hell. So refusing jesus is not the ONLY sin to through you into hell forever. Meaning your point about jesus being the contingent is not true. sinning against god seems to be the point. So it is still unjust to send one to hell forever when a human can only sin for 80 yrs. give or take. 80 yrs. in hell should be all that is required to make right again. balance.
1122stardust 5 months ago
@1122stardust U dont understand the love of God.At all.Sacrifice of Christ paid in full for all sins of mankind,that is why he is pleased in that matter because its already paid for by innocent blood.
MrUrosSrb 5 months ago
@MrUrosSrb I understand most certainly. I was a christian for 27 years until the contradictions started showing there ugly face. Let me ask you a basic question...why is christ PAYING for anything?? Doesnt god own and rule everything in the universe?? You think satan actually can steal(us) from god?? See if satan can steal us humans from god, then god really isnt in control, or he allows it thus being the soul perpetrator. Why does he blame us then if he allowed us to be stolen or deceived?
1122stardust 5 months ago
@1122stardust Ok.He pays for our sins to please the father,so that any1 who recieves Christ has his sins payed for already,if there were no Jesus sacrifice any1 with atleast 1 sin would go to Hell because thats the natural reaction of God to sin.Satan cant steal u if u are a believer,God doesnt blame u if u are decieved but u have ur mind to know Right from Wrong anyway.Its just through faith alone in Christ is salvation.
MrUrosSrb 5 months ago
@1122stardust Oh, I said refusing Jesus is the "Most offensive" sin, not the "ONLY" sin...Christ is still the contingent though, because He made everything, so to sin against God is to sin against the Lamb (Which is why the Lamb is described as having wrath in the Revelation of JC). Offend a guy who offended you not, then refuse his offer to make peace with you after your offense....who can help you after that? I guess that makes no sense if you dont believe you offended him in the first place.
vuci4111 5 months ago
@1122stardust So the problem is our sins against God are so immense, so serious, and so horrendous that even if we gave our lives for Him, in service to Him, without being washed by the blood of the lamb(Jesus), He could never accept us. If u wanna know how insidious our sins are towards Him, look at the extreme measure He went through to give us a means to get to heaven...He asked His Son who is Holy and Pure like Him to suffer punishment and to die like an unrepentant sinner.
vuci4111 5 months ago
@1122stardust
Yes God is loving, no that is not his only quality. God is also just, and he is holy. Sin goes against God, and because God is just, sin must be punished. But how does anyone get to Heaven? Romans 6:23 says it is a gift of God through Jesus Christ.
In your example you talk about a soldier. While what he did was great and honorable, we arent saved by works but by faith. Isaiah 64:6 shows that our best works are like filthy rags. It is by Faith in Christ we are saved, not works.
eingram21 5 months ago
@eingram21 So you would feel comfortable at a soldier's funeral if asked, saying to the crowd as your duty to not feel ashamed of the gospel "If this man did not have christ in his heart, he and his sacrifice for us is burning in Hell. His sacrifice is as a bloody tampon. God is most disappointed with his bravery. It meant nothing to god" As you read this your conscious convicted you this is wrong!!! By god sending someone like that to hell he cant care for his great deed. Wake Up!!!
1122stardust 5 months ago
@1122stardust Yes, you are right, when you measure things on a scale that minimizes God, of course it seems as though all this is utter folly and insulting to the soldier. God is infinitely good, and Holy. Our finite measures of "Goodness" do not equate to God's holiness, which is required to enter heaven. It only promotes "PRIDE" in us, which, if u read scripture(Ezek28,Isaiah14) caused Lucifer to "FALL" out of heaven. Btw, if that's what it took to get to heaven, could u enter heaven?
vuci4111 5 months ago
@vuci4111 Not minimizing god. God seems to measure us on the same scale as him. "Be perfect as I am perfect." Ok so you believe that the soldiers sacrifice has merit to eternal life then. if not...HELL. If god's goodness is not as ours, how CAN we KNOW what good is?? How can he blame us then?? Lucifer in that vs. is actually reference to the king of Tyre symbolically "FALLING" from earthly power. Also, Lucifer means "light bearer", not personified devil or satan. Look all this up!!
1122stardust 5 months ago
@1122stardust I know what these verses say, come on. They are spoken to King of Tyre referencing also to Satan who was the Light Bearer in hev'n...these verses are generally accepted as referring to Satan by scholars (Chuck Missler). God's goodness is plain to us as bread, known even by our simple conscience (which God will use to judge those who hv not been under law (Romans2:15 ...who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness...
vuci4111 5 months ago
@vuci4111 HAHA, what proof does the conscious rely on to know for sure it is the christian god we are dealing with? Christian good or morality is common with other world religions. Same basic principals. How do you know for sure?? It might be true in the bible, but no one knows for sure the bible is THE truth. Just your bias. that has no proof or foundation. How can a vs refer to the King of Tyre and satan at the same time? Satan does not appear anywhere in the O.T. literally. He is Assumed..
1122stardust 5 months ago
@1122stardust Satan is named when David counts the people of Israël; from revelations it is said Snake is called "Satan", also the king of Tyre descibed a Cherub who was mighty but fell. It's the same like saying there is a red-coated guy with a white beard and a bunch of gifts coming from a deer-pulled chariot. And you then saying "Did he say he was santa claus? if not, then he totally isn't ".
ElmerAwesome 4 months ago
@ElmerAwesome HAHA, remember satan means "adversary" This could be anyone in the human race, even angels act as adversaries as in Job when Job is attacked by a "satan" or angel of the lord. The King of Tyre was mighty and fell...It was Nebuchadnezzer that the passage is talking about. Not a personified Devil. Also, it appears to me and common sense that Rev. reinterpreted Gen to fit the devil back into ancient scripture to be the serpent. Why isnt he called serpent throughout scripture then?
1122stardust 4 months ago
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@ElmerAwesome HAHA, remember satan means "adversary" This could be anyone in the human race, even angels act as adversaries as in Job when Job is attacked by a "satan" or angel of the lord. The King of Tyre was mighty and fell...It was Nebuchadnezzer that the passage is talking about. Not a personified Devil. Also, it appears to me and common sense that Rev. reinterpreted Gen to fit the devil back into ancient scripture to be the serpent. Why isnt he called serpent throughout scripture then?
1122stardust 4 months ago
@1122stardust Read Romans1:18 on, God holds us ALL accountable to knowing good from evil, and choosing evil over good WITH KNOWLEDGE of the existence of God means no one can escape with the excuse that they didn't know. Trust me, it won't be hard for God to find fault with us all, me included....Thanks be to God for Christ therefore, who will save you and me from our sin if we turn to Him. Romans 3:10 "There is none righteous, no, not one" Not that soldier, not you and not me...
vuci4111 5 months ago
@1122stardust The problem with your argument is that it is not based on the Bible. You are saying that your morals are of a higher level than God's, and that because you think it is wrong, so should God. I would not feel comfortable saying that at a funeral of a soldier, nor would i feel comfortable saying that about Hitler, but just because it is uncomfortable doesn't mean it is wrong. The fact that people die everyday is uncomfortable, but still entirely real.
eingram21 5 months ago
@eingram21 If you still disagree with me, I would encourage you to challenge me based on the Bible, not your own opinion. Ephesians chapter 2 verse 8&9 "8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Please dont take this in anger, I am challenging you to have your foundation as the Bible, not leaning on your own understanding. (proverbs 3: 5-8) I am not doing this out of anger but love
eingram21 5 months ago
Romans 1---YES!!!!!
widemanoranges 5 months ago
@Palantinius Thanks for your insights on this subject. I have learned a lot by just communicating with you. Do you mind if i ask the church you go to? God bless.
maidenshazza 6 months ago
@Palantinius Are the rapist crusader's actions the fruits of salvation????
maidenshazza 6 months ago
@Palantinius I am trying to please God in every thought, word and action as well, but when I fail and get angry over something, your saying I will not see the kingdom of heaven, which is you trying to say that you never fail. If you do fail, then by your own doctrine your never going to heaven either. Im going to have to disagree with you and leave it at this. I know I am not saved by who I am, but by who Christ is. Romans 3:20, Romans 3:23-25,Galations 2:16... etc confirms this. God bless.
maidenshazza 6 months ago