CBC Archives: Avro Arrow's Maiden Flight, 1958

[Ferrobbra]

yup the government fucked us, scrapped the plane and then bought 700 billion rockets from the americans. I wonder if defenbaker realized that he would need some sort of gravity defying device to fire them. "Vote conservative, because they know whats best for everyone." suuuck meat.

[canadamonster]

fuck the conservative party

[playingwithfirehurts]

hey guys check this out

ctv,ca/CTVNews/TopStories/2011­1217/avro-arrow-ejection-seat-­mystery-deepens-with-uk-discov­ery-111218/

[mattmatt115]

This would have eventually evolved into a flying wing stealth bomber. We had so much going for us in the 50s and 60s but we allowed to leave our grasp

[VieuxMalcommode]

The loss of the Arrow... Canada's biggest tragedy since WW2, which resulted in the country being the 5th power of the world at the time to what, now... 25th?

[Love4SK]

every jet since has been a copycat of the arrow

[MrJackmehoff1964]

stop voting PC if you really think this was a tragedy it was DIEF the scumbag beef that killed it gave it all to America even the Iroquois engine that later went on to be some GE or Prat engine oh yes dief the traitor beef gave it to them for freeeeeeeee my tax money hard at work oh and the french ordered 300 of the engines could have got my money back

[94xr7]

thats what happens when you rely on corporate welfare

[canadamonster]

@94xr7 yup all those usa jets were never given government money lol u r a fucktard if u think private sector never got government money

[vancouverbman]

oh well in that case...it's the usa's fault for meddling in a business deal between canada and the ussr..." land of the free" my ass....

[94xr7]

The Avro was an awesome plane. Its serves as an example of what happens when government interferes. Canada couldn't afford it, USA rejected it. USSR wanted them but USA wouldn't allow USSR to buy. they then relied on corporate welfare afterwords which led to the death of a legend. have we allowed for free market to allow them to sell to the Soviets, the price would come down enough for Canadians to enjoy them- Liberals on the other hand would despise it. an example of liberal hypocrisy.

[94xr7]

@94xr7 liberals hate the military. yet they love the Avro arrow. why? they dont- they just wan people to hate the PC leader and the party for cutting off the corporate welfare to a corporation who couldn't produce a product that anyone wanted to buy- they couldn't produce it cheap enough because USA government restriction banned the sale to the USSR who would pay the high price.

[cdnparatrooper]

my grandpa helped build the arrow

[shmackahippie]

Canada just wins at engineering... What it comes down to.

[CanadiansKicksAss123]

@shmackahippie untill the U.S.A black mails us and the stupid prime minester gives into them ...

[shmackahippie]

@CanadiansKicksAss123 Then the statement annotates to 'Canadian Engineers take their winning to NASA and JPL'.

...Bummer.

[CanadiansKicksAss123]

@shmackahippie yupe ... we could have been one of the best in air force technology but no of fucking course not.

[SkarvoDestro]

The Arrow is no longer just one of the finest aircraft ever built, but a symbol of Canadian strength, even though it was then, now it has become a legend. The demolition of all the planes and most of the instruction manuals is a terrible tragedy though, does anyone know why that even happened? Not even one saved for a museum or later picking up the project.

It makes me sad it didn't just stop, but really died.

[l3ullshitter]

@SkarvoDestro There was some suspicion that the program had been infiltrated by Soviet intelligence, although I'm not sure whether this was the reasoning behind whole-sale destruction of the prototypes; other sources I've said suggested that their destruction was Crawford's idea (after the cancellation, allegedly getting a little vindictive and ordering their scrapping in an effort to make the cancellation fall-out as toxic for the responsible government as possible).

[SkarvoDestro]

@l3ullshitter That's a new take on it, maybe. I still am disappointed that not even one survived though. Would have been nice to have that piece of Canadian history somewhere.

[acr0n1x]

@SkarvoDestro there is one left hiding

[C1TeamMidNight]

@acr0n1x At most, there is one chassis left hiding, with some electronics built in. Every Arrow completed was accounted for in the destruction photos - The other 3 on the assembly line were also destroyed - except there is a very slight chance one was retained and put into hiding.

I doubt very much there is one left, but wouldn't it be cool to one day walk through a random forest and find a full Arrow hidden among the tree's?

[rainmen2011]

this lost diefenbaker the election i feel. he caved into the yankees

[vancouverbman]

@rainmen2011 of course he did....he was a conservative...he probably though they would give him a job.....fucking tory assholes

[94xr7]

@vancouverbman so you believe in corporate welfare?

[superman1749]

They should make an IMAX documentary on the Arrow, it would be awsome. We need more movies and documentaries about it.

[banjer4u]

I did see there never was an Arrow . It was alot closer to the truth than the CBC joke. Please check out the website I mentioned.

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u I tierd the site you gave but did not find anything. is there another way to find the information you are referring to.

[banjer4u]

@mahoganyrush300 Just type in usask.ca/gallery/arrow and hit search. It should be the first site that comes up as The Avro Arrow. On the home page you can select design, or the cancellation, anything that is on that site. You can also click on the documents and see them in full screen.

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u I found the site you were refering to it was a site I was well aware of. I did not realize they were the same. I was expecting some thing quite revelatory. Only to find material I was allready aware of.I think the issue at hand is how one views the material at hand.I have considerable word of mouth information from former avro employees as well as the documents at hand including the diefenbaker memoirs and the reasearch my father inlaw a ccra actuary uncovered in the archives the cf105

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u engineering brochure the personal testimony of a former employee of boeing, whom as a 17 year old secretary wrote up the order for the bomarc missle sale to canada in favour of the cf105. Was in boeings boardroom at the time of the announcement. In which the board room broke into laughter as boeing knew the bomarc was no good, despite the US governments will to carry it on. The whole story could take up a serious amount of written space. Do keep digging it will prove to be lotsa fun.

[banjer4u]

Yes the actual number of mission for the Voodoo was 35,000. It was late when I wrote that and sent it without correcting the error. Only ONE Voodoo was lost in air to air combat as I said. They did loose some in accidents and from anti aircraft fire. You a also good at comparing apples to oranges. The CF-101B was the 2 man variant with a more powerful engine than the 101A . Lets take a look at the RCAF criteria.

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u The F101 flew on the J57-p-13 variant of engine. The CF101b flew on the J57-p-55 variant the diference in thrust is about 10% not enough to make a real difference considering that the 101b is longer and heavier. But keep up the study. Aviation is my passion I am curator af an aircraft museum I am not at liberty to say which one on this forum, but it is fun following this thread and I enjoy talking with you. And the santa part really made laugh it was very funny.

[banjer4u]

@mahoganyrush300 I saw the CBC. Arrow movie and like many Canadians was initially duped into thinking we had created a marvel of aviation technology. Few years ago I started hearing reports that suggested otherwise. I started doing alot of research and came to a few conclusions. The firstly, most Canadians knowledge of the Arrow came solely from the CBC. movie. The CBC movie was more fiction than fact, and more and more it seems the Arrow was still along way from seeing airworthy service.

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u I was very disappointed in the movie. To me the movie is fluff just alot of fun. the basic story is there but not really. I started to really dig hard into the Arrow in 1976 I was able after a time to get to know the pilot Zurakowski Jim floyd and others on the program. if you follow tha careers of the 25 avro engineers on loan from avro to nasa and what they achieved and the awards and remarks from their superiors there you will get some idea of just what they were up to at avro.

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u the level of technology in the Arrow is what they took with them to NASA. There is a book out called Arrows to the moon. Read that book and you will see what these men achieved then you will have a better idea as to the sophistication in the arrows design this the team that made her go. read also the Arrow from boston mills press available on ebay and watch the video on youtube there never was an Arrow it has some good stuf Its in 6 parts pay particular attention to Fred Smye in pt. 5

[ClaytonBeitz]

@mahoganyrush300

I've got that book, Internal weapons bays, and they were even in the process of developing a fly-by-wire system for it, all developed in the late '50s it was the most advanced fighter of it's time, John Diefenbaker was too spineless to stand up to the U.S.

If we had a PM with some backbone we could have had a Canadian designed plane that probably could have been updated and remained in service until the 1980's.

[mahoganyrush300]

@ClaytonBeitz Which book were you refering to?

[banjer4u]

@mahoganyrush300 As far as the F 101 goes, it did not meet the RCAF critera because it was a single seater. The CF 101B was a 2 man version that fulfilled the RCAF's demands and served our country well for 25 years.

[TheShart1234]

Diefenbaker was a ass. the US probably gave him a suitcase of money and a nice big house. politions are really stuiped

[worrgasum]

One German and a team of canadian enginears form this project put america on the moon

[raynus1]

@worrgasum: You mean a team of German rocket-designers, working with several thousand American engineers and aeronautical professionals, along with a handful of out-of-work ex-Avro Canadians, helped put man on the moon.

[avro206]

A huge waste of money to cancel the contract. They should have at least finished the 37 on the production live. A world speed record could have been achieved and held for brief time as well.

[Autostade67]

It's funny - and disheartening - to read some of the withering commentary about the "false mythology" of the Arrow...true, maybe it is made to be something slightly more than it was , but few people realize that the Arrow's importance to a Canadian sense of self was not the performance (or limitations?) of the plane itself, but that it REPRESENTED a technological will to autonomy that seems to have gotten lost ( and never quite regained) in a swirl of national and geopolitical economic forces.

[mrklavin]

Thanks for the info everyone! Very informative. Plain and simple, beautiful bird! I'm far too young to have seen her fly. I do wish that Diefenbaker had a pair on him, not scrapped the production and bow to CIA, or US pressures, or however legend goes...

she could've put Canada on the map with a far stronger presence. Oh well...I still love the Arrow!

[Aurorasr91rs91]

In fact, Diefenbaker didn't care for the government! He would have never went to his nuclear emergency bunker/shelter near Ottawa because his dog and wife weren't allowed! So do you think his minister would go there? IUnfortunatly he didn't die from a russian nuke...

[toakodan]

@Aurorasr91rs91 The town was called Carp ;P I went into it, its veeeeeery big and kinda nice.

[Aurorasr91rs91]

@toakodan I went there too, bough the 11 steps to survive a nuke strike from 1985 and have the book about it. Four story, so much rooms and some guns that helped a guy kill some people in the parlement in Quebec some years ago. Visit it, that's worth it.

[raynus1]

Hope this has been educational. Good night, all.

[yomamasofat1237283]

Fuck the USA all of a sudden all of these were just decomisioned u no what happened? Lockheed Maritin and Beoing could not handle csomeone made a better weapon so they bought them and destroyed them

[raynus1]

@yomamasofat1237283: Don't think so. Like the C-102 Jetliner, Avro brass likely ordered the destruction of the aircraft and tooling. Diefenbaker and the USA are merely convenient scapegoats. Drunken Crawford Gordon is alleged to have personally ordered the destruction of the 5 complete and several incomplete airframes. Suggest you google 'Dief didn't destroy the Arrow'.

[raynus1]

@yomamasofat1237283: Please. Lockheed was ready to put the Mach 3 A-12 into production, Boeing was only building bombers. McDonnell Douglas had just introduced the excellent F-110 (F-4 Phantom II). Convair had their Mach 2.3 F-106 interceptor already in service. NAA was ready to put the Mach 3 F-108 Rapier into production (it was cancelled), and their highly advanced A-5 Vigilante had already began flight testing. The Arrow wasn't even a concern to US warplane producers.

[StiTinkBig]

Lol I wouldent be suprised god forbid if canada or even another country does better then the usa lol

[NDVinnyG]

Bomb bay to hold nuclear weapons... Oh we were once a strong nation... now we are a nation of Hippie's who think nukes will just go away

[broot4u]

Diefenbaker broke a lot of Canadian's hearts when he ordered these all cut up. Cancellation, ok, hard pill to swallow, but that's life. Destruction was absolutely unnecessary.

Thanks to the boys out at Downsview for building that beautiful replica. I swallowed back a few tears when I saw it. They did amazing work. A far cry from that torched cockpit in Ottawa!!!!

[shock1974]

The Arrow faced the same fate as many US interceptor projects: outright cancellation or severly reduced numbers (the F-106 for example). The threat had changed. Mutually assured descruction was the deterrent, not anti-bomber defences. The F-101 and F-106 were fine interceptors and undoubtedly the Aarow would have been fine as well, but it just wasn't needed. ICBM bases in the Russian heartland and submarines off the coast lobbing missles were the real threat. Interceptors do squat against that.

[8BALT]

@shock1974

Excellent point, but the Arrow would have been Canada's ticket to Aerospace superiority. Instead Diefenbaker gave in to Political pressure and scrapped the project. He fucked Canada pure and simple. Now we get to buy everyones hand me downs. Some of the people from the Arrow project were key in the development of the Concorde. That should tell you everything you need to know about how bad Diefenbaker fucked us over, Typical politician.

[shock1974]

@8BALT

I think you might be overstating things with "ticket to Aerospace superiority". No doubt that it hurt Canadian industry, but competing on the world market against American, British and French companies over the long haul was going to be difficult... Heck, a lot of "big time" US and British aerospace firms were bought up or left the market altogether to become part suppliers, even during the height of the Cold War.

[dewky1234]

@8BALT also the designer of the arrow went on to help put the first man on the moon

[raynus1]

@dewky1234: Reality check: Jim Floyd actually returned to Great Britian after the cancellation of the Arrow project, and went to work for Hawker Siddeley. He did not "help put man on the moon".

[raynus1]

@8BALT: "Now we get to buy everyones hand me downs". Our present fleet of CF-18's were purchased new, beginning in 1982. Brand-new, leading-edge technology. The 238 CF-104's, which entered service in 1962, were brand-new, with most being manufactured in Canada. The 135 CF-5 Freedom Fighters that entered service in 1968 were brand-new, and manufactured in Canada. The only used aircraft purchased were the two batches of 66 CF-101's. Even those served most reliably until the mid-1980's.

[bluecollarcanuck]

@raynus1 CF-5s were manufactured under licence from an American design, as were the -18s. You may also remember the civilian-pattern 5-ton commercial truck buy form last year. The contract went to THE YANKS. AGAIN. That was Steven Goering's idea, AGAIN. Sell out to the U.S., when truck plants in Ontario are out of work. Libs or Tories, we continue our proud tradition of fucking our troops over.

[raynus1]

@bluecollarcanuck: CF-18's were built in the USA by McDonnell Douglas. Frankly, truck plants in Ontario deserve to be out of work. Until they rein in their ridiculously overpaid, unionized work force, the auto sector will continue to be a massive taxpayer-funded sink-hole. Actually, the Harper conservatives have been very good to the Canadian military.

[raynus1]

@8BALT: By political pressure, I assume you mean the $340M spent on the project that was seriously diminishing the government's ability to fund other areas of the military, or to assist other areas of the country. Please don't tell me that you think the USA pressured old Dief into cancelling it. Suggest you google '1957 defense white paper' and "Dief didn't destroy the Arrow'. You might be surprised what really happened. Even CD Howe (a Liberal) admitted it was a white elephant.

[banjer4u]

@8BALT The only ones thats screwed Canadians over on this deal was A.V Roe. In the 1950"s they milked Canadian taxpayers for $400,000,000 plus they still wanted nearly ANOTHER $4,000,000 per plane without having tested any weapons systems. Why should we spend 400 million on a private companys R&D and then still have to pay a premium price for the finished product? Any kid with grade 3 arithmetic can figure out that this was a bad deal.

[avro206]

@banjer4u : sickening lack of knowledge. AVRO wasn't milking the government at all. They built a plane to meet the RCAF specifications for an all new supersonic interceptor. The entire production line was setup and in the process of building production ready Arrows. This wasn't some one off prototype. AVRO spent the money on R&D, employee wages, materials, supplies ect. And of course they made a profit too. They are not a non profit organization!

[banjer4u]

@avro206 AV Roe spent our tax dollars setting up tooling and production before they even had a prototype. When the Arrow was cancelled, the original price tag of $260 million had ballooned to over $400 million and AV Roe. still wanted nearly another $4 million/plane. Canadians are patriotic but most of them aren't that stupid. I believe that if AV Roe was more business savy both the Arrow and their jet liner could have survived. It's a shame AV Roe and the CBC were such conglomerate clusterfucks

[avro206]

@banjer4u lets clear upa few things. AVRO was a contractor to the military. They designed a plane to meet the RCAF specs. The government approved the funding. Blame the government, not AVRO.

Blame the RCAF for starting the whole process---then cancelling the Arrow---even though it did meet the specs. Then after, NORAD requested that Canada have some interceptors!! RCAF wasted 400 million dollars!

[mahoganyrush300]

@avro206 Bravo!!! well said.

[avro206]

@banjer4u The Arrow could never survive without an order of production aircraft from the government. Your buddy CD Howe kiiled the Jetliner by the way. You seem to expect that AVRO can work miracles for FREE! All the thousands of parts on the Arrow had to be designed, tested and researched.The faster you go--Mach 2+ costs alot more money. In the end Avro had just one product and one customer--that was thier biggest flaw because the customer rejected the product and Avro died.

[banjer4u]

@avro206 Thanks, now I understand this much clearer. CD Howe killed the Jetliner and the RCAF. killed the Arrow. Try going to scaa.usask.ca/gallery/arrow There you can see now declassified documents including the letter to the Prime minister regarding the Arrow cancellation. The Arrow met the RCAF specs for an interceptor. So did the CF-101B for at least 1/5 the cost of the Arrow, if completed. It had a faster rate of climb, farther range, almost as fast, had multifunction role capabilities.

[avro206]

@banjer4u Quite true. The funny thing is the RCAF looked at the F01B in 1954 and rejected it. To then go build the Arrow, spend $397 million dollars, then scrap the Arrow--with nothing to show for it--then get the Voodoo in a swap with CL-44s--was a huge mistake in terms of wasting money. The Voodoo did do the job for the RCAF in the end. I do think that range is with the external fuel tank though, which was being developed for the Arrow too. Perhaps it wouldn't flown as far anyways.

[avro206]

@banjer4u Not trying to convert you to an Arrow fan or anything BTW. There's alot of myths, negative and positive about the Arrow. Some true, some false. I am not pretending it was the best plane ever--or 20 years ahead of it's time. I just think it was the most beautiful plane ever built and Canada should be proud of it. Maybe it should never have been started. But since it was I think it should have been completed, Even if only the 37. At the very least put in a museum, not a junk yard.

[mahoganyrush300]

@avro206 The Arrow could have survived on foriegn orders but the government would never have allowed this to happen. could you imagine Isreal flying Arrows but we didn't buy any??? So you are right again on all counts.

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u The arrow was built on the cook craige method of developement there was no need for prototypes the airframes that flew and proved themselves so well were built on production tooling saving millions in man hours and money. The 400.000.000 included the delivery of aircraft in total 37. With options for more. At a future cost of 3.500.000 per copy Intune with rates of inflation and and volume of purchases reducing the overall cost per copy at the rate of inflation vs other manufacturers.

[banjer4u]

@mahoganyrush300 Not really. Go to Avro Arrow archives usask.ca/gallery/arrow You can see the documents that are now declassified. They were asking for $3,750,000/ copy and that had nothing to do with the 4 million development cost. The government also tried a last chance sales pitch to try and sell the Arrow but there were no takers. France had already started their own Mirage jet program before the Arrows first test flight. There is very little truth in the CBC. "ARROW" movie.

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u What you are calling a sales pitch wouldn't sell a new car to teenager for free. The best pitch would have been to say if you don't buy Arrows there will be no NORAD no SAGE. So lets make a trade you buy Arrows then we could afford NORAD + SAGE. America would still have the best deal now having Arrows to fly. We. the bomarc DUD! We too would have arrows for the world to see perform and buy. look at Isreal they wanted the mirage the French said no! So they stole the plans + built KFIR

[banjer4u]

@mahoganyrush300 Why didn't AVRO do better job of marketing the Arrow and their jetliner? Why would the americans fly the Arrow when they already had the F-106 the F-4 and the F-101? The Americans offered to either help finance the Arrow or sell us suitable planes. Their only concern was our ability to fulfill our commitment to NORAD. If we had just bought the F-101B in the first place we would have been $300,000,000 ahead.

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u The jetliner is an interesting story. howard huges wanted to build the plane under licence in the US. The government said no.Why, who knows. They wouldn't let Avro build it because of the korean war.The reason for America flying the Arrow would be to be able to put NORAD and SAGE into place in canada. The f101 did not meet the RCAF requirement. In speaking with pilots. They say the 101 was a cadillac to fly. Jack Woodman found the Arrow far more responsive so superior she was. 

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u When ever Avro attempted sales the powers that be always stood in the way and the reason was that the Arrow was under the axe in early 1958. Every sales pitch they made was shot down by officials like Pearkes. Everyonr was hung up that the next war would be fought with missles. So who needs an army. Who needs a navy. Why did they keep these it was because they new otherwise. when has a war ever been fought with missles and nuclear war heads.Sadam launched some scuds thats it! nothing!!

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u The Arrow or versions of the plane would still be flying today. we still have CF100 aircraft doing odd little jobs and look at what we spent on aircraft since. And what about new designs Avro had on the drawing board. The full scope on these things alone would take a book. 16billion to be spent on F35c aircraft when the arrow still meets those requirements. I just shake my head. REALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[banjer4u]

@mahoganyrush300 The Arrow program was canceled because It was eroding our entire military budget and was just to costly to continue. The government never ordered Avro to chop it up for scrap. The Americans never forced our hand into scraping it. The CF-101 was very good plane for us, we the only CF-100 left are on pedestals. I have tried to direct you to documents to shine some light on the truth but it seems the truth about the Arrow is just too bitter a pill for some Canadians to swallow.

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u Untrue the Arrow was cancelled on bad advice,"for I was persuaded by others" John diefenbakers memoirs. Bad advice in hindsite he called it. The missle age was the reason given. The CF100 out flew the voodoo with ease subsonicly. The clunk could fly well above its service ceiling of 45000' especilly the mkV with its extended wing. The voodoo needed to go supersonic to gain those altitudes. The lift to wieght ratio was just to low and wingtip stall a constant issue for its pilots.

[banjer4u]

@mahoganyrush300 If you would just go to the site I mentioned you could SEE FOR YOURSELF the very document that you are talking about. They knew they were still going to need a plane. Half a quote isn't a quote it's a trick the media uses all the time. ICBM's were still a potential threat or maybe you've never heard of the Cuban Missile Crisis or the cold war. Who cares what the CF-100 could do at 400 miles an hour, were after a supersonic interceptor or did you forget that part?

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4Now this is very interesting ICBMs a threat. IN ESCENCE THEY STILL ARE. And what do we shoot them down with???? Then or now. Did you know that Canada was invoved in the cuban missle crisis...with voodoos AND we had no ordinance...But thats ok the americans let us use some of theirs.400 miles an hour you say? Thefactory listed combat speed of the clunk was 552mph actual usage of the plane was 692 maxed out and had been flown supersonic in a dive.

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u You must have me mixed up with another thread you gave me no such site.

[banjer4u]

@mahoganyrush300  Google Avro Arrow Archives and find the link at scaa.usask.ca/gallery/arrow/ there you can view the letter to the Prime Minister regarding the cancellation of the Arrow program.

[banjer4u]

@mahoganyrush300 The CF-101had a very impressive rate of climb that still rivals some modern fighters to this day. The Arrow had a slight advantage over the Voodoo in speed but the CF-101 trumped the Arrow in every other statistic.

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u The rate of climb of the voodoo was about 48000-50000'/min. I don't know where you get your stats from CF101 was no match for the Arrow in any department. The thrust to wieght was higher the flight control atypical, pilot strength being a factor where the Arrow was fly by wire and could be tuned to pilot preference, cockpit temperature control was better, turn capability at mach2 without loss of speed or altitude, the 101 wingtips would stall the Arrow didn't shall I go on.

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u Yes the voodoo flew in viet nam, it was the first US aircraft to arrive there. It flew 35000 missions not 50000. losses to the enemy were 39 aircraft not 1 as you suggested and was rejected by the RCAF in 1953. it is a matter of record the Spud Patocki flew the arrow to mach 1.98 that is a 1% differencial to mach 2 and fullfilled all its RCAF requirments at that speed. Giving that avro had a policy not to break any records with the PW engine Max speeds were restricted.

[banjer4u]

@mahoganyrush300  You forgot to mention that on landing after that mach 1.98 flight the right side landing gear broke off. The Arrow flight log only show 2 +g maneuvers one at mach 1.2 and one at mach1.55. It is interesting that during these tests both pilots complain of severe pitch oscillation. This was actually witness another time from the chase plane. The computer showed it was not caused by pilot input, and it was said that had it happened at high speed could have wrecked the plane.

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u You are making things up to a certain extent or misinterpreting the evidence. While doing +3g pitch investigation involving pulling 3G and releasing the stick Spud experienced a violent porpoise effect of +3 then -2 g effect on the air plane it then failed to follow stick comands until the AFCS was switched off. This was of great concern to them as the problem never revealed itself. The landing gear issue you speak of was related. See the arrow

boston mills press pg.77 and pg. 81

[banjer4u]

@mahoganyrush300 Yes I've heard that one before. I've also heard that the Arrow secretly delivered all the presents for Santa Claus one christmas when all the reindeer were sick. Plus g maneuvers at mach 2 were not an RCAF requirement nor did the Arrow ever preform such maneuvers. The Arrow did a plus g turn at mach 1.55 and experienced problems.

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u I think you need to learn a little about flying. G force is an objects acceleration relative to free fall. The moment you turn the aircraft you have positiveve G.

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u Though sweet to fly she had her limitations, limitations the Arrow never had. The CF100 was in our combat inventory until 1981and still performing duties with nato until that time. Today a few are still used as tugs and the like along with a handful of believe it or not some f86s.As for the destruction of the arrow I never blamed the Americans if that is indeed your accusation. I believe I may have uncovered the whole thred of that debate but there is no room to discuss that issue here

[avro206]

@banjer4u Furthermore the RCAF can take some blame for wanting the ASTRA/Sparrow fire control system. AVRO and the USAF said it was not needed. Alot of money was spent and wasted on this---was not AVROs doing. The Hughes fire control system was being put into one of the Arrow at the time of cancellation (202 or 203 IIRC) It was a proven system, no problems were expected. Was it expensive? Yes. Was Avro "milking" Canadians? Not at all my friend.

[banjer4u]

@avro206 I take great offence to your reference of my "sickening lack of knowledge " regarding the Arrow. Nothing could be further from the truth. Rather than wholeheartly believe the CBC spin I did a tremendous amount of researce. C D Howe tried to warn the liberal government not to get involved with A V Roe. on the project, after the problems with the CF-100 project. The Arrow proved no different. One MP is quoted as saying " they were always knocking on our door begging for more money

[avro206]

@banjer4u High tech costs money. Avro and the governement underestimated this from the start. The CF-100 had alot of teething problems, very true. Avro did get them all fixed and the plane was in service until the 80's.

The Arrow proved very different!! That you claim otherwise shows your lack of knowledge. The Arrow has some problems with the landing gear--two minor crashes. Otherwise testing and development was going very well. They were adjusting and fine tuning the Arrow.

[mahoganyrush300]

@avro206 Name me an aircraft that had no teething problems. Evry aircraft needs tweeking refineing in some cases redesign. The CF100 was an excellent aircraft in the end. The Arrow by comparrison had far fewer problems and the 5 that were flying were being fine tuned and as this tuning went on, the tuning was being put into the aircraft in the production line saving many more hours of work. In all there were to be 15 preproduction models to incorporate all refinments in RL 216.

[mahoganyrush300]

@avro206 Teething problems!! Every aircraft needs tweeking refineing in some cases redesign. The CF100 was an excellent aircraft in the end. The Arrow by comparrison had far fewer problems and the 5 that were flying were being fine tuned and as this tuning went on, the tuning was being put into the aircraft in the production line saving many more hours of work. In all there were to be 15 preproduction models to incorporate all refinments in RL 216. BUILD A PAPER PLANE AND THE TWEEKING BEGINS!!!

[avro206]

@banjer4u All you research comes up with is that CD Howe changed his mind and one MPs quote....wow that's so bad.

[mahoganyrush300]

@banjer4u I researched this for 30 years on and off. Never And I Say Never Believe A Politician. 

[avro206]

@banjer4u $400 million on private R&D?? AVRO was meeting the specs of the RCAF. The government owned the tooling, the jigs, the plans and the planes. You seem to cling to the idea that AVRO was stealing from the government and doing noting in return

[mahoganyrush300]

@avro206 Well said.

[tjmfishing]

thank you for this video

[tjmfishing]

On "Black Friday" a piece of Canada was lost forever, our great aviation dream. Those politicians made a terrible mistake that day. The Arrow should never be forgotten.

[pierre766]

... in fact , this plane was so perfect they could rebuild it today and still shun the F-18 approach to air defense...

[pierre766]

folks... stop all the arguiing, please. There will always be arguments to explainwhy the Arrow had to go and then... there will be a few of us who will have had a shot at greatness for having built the best supersonic fighter ever built. Any further questions must go to our GREAT candain defense ministry for explaining why they favored purchasing US built ground-to-air missiles... OUT

[banjer4u]

@pierre766 Hold on, we built the best supersonic ever? What plane would that be? We have all heard of the "Arrow" but now I'm not sure what plane you are talking about.

[pierre766]

CF-101.. a slow vulnerable flying washing machine. The ARROW...the best of it's time. It got axed by Dieffenbaker who pleaded more in favor of casting pots and pans with Canadian metal... and also advocated the purchase of air to ground missiles from the USA (Pershings ?). Now don't expect power lapdogs to tell you different...especially if they belong to the military (they're all embarrassed, really...). Next thing they'll tell you is - why we must be present in Aphganistan... LOL

[banjer4u]

pierre766 The Voodoo F-101held the world airspeed record in 1957 at mach 1.75. The CF-101B (our plane) had a top speed of mach 1.8+ that is as fast as our current CF-18A. The USAF operated the F-101 until 1972 flying 35,000 missions in Viet Nam. They lost only ONE in air to air combat to a MIG 21. The US used the F-101 until 1982. Not to bad for a winged washing machine. I dont blindly believe ANYTHING about the Arrow, especially from the CBC. I got off my ass and did some real research.

[dappawap]

Speed alone is not what makes a great fighter jet.

[banjer4u]

@dappawap You are so right when you say speed alone isn't what makes a great fighter. Thats the very reason why other planes were a more practical choice for Canadas air force than the Arrow. As far as the impact on our economy by the move to the US. by a handfull of A. V. Roe employes, we lost far more personel and revenue when the Winnepeg Jets, and the Quebec Nordiques moved south of the border.

[dappawap]

No, the Arrow was strategically more practical. It was fast but still was easy enough to maneouver in air to air combat. The problem was not about that; this was purely political and business all combined. Sometimes the cost of saving money costs more long term. Who knows what would have happened if we kept the project. Canada has since been fighting absolescence in its military and the cost of an C F 18 was estimated to be greater than that of the Arrow.

[banjer4u]

@dappawap You've got to be joking! The only reason the Arrow was fast was they crammed 2 of the biggest enines available into its frame. The F-106 was faster using only one engine. Delta winged aircraft sacraficed manouverabilty for speed. Add that to the Arrows enourmous weight and limitted range and you will quickly understand why there were better choices. If we had bought the CF-101 Voodoos in the first place we would have saved half a billion dollars. That was a lot of coin back in 1959.

[8BALT]

@dappawap

Finally! An Excellent point. Another great example was Chretien's idea of scrapping the helicopter contract. 8 Years later we needed to replace them anyways but this time we had to fork out almost double. Plus the penalties from before. Canada is loaded with piss poor politicians.

[bluecollarcanuck]

@8BALT No kidding! We could have sold these to half of NATO, and made out like bandits! Fucking jackass governments! Harper, too; he's just turned us into a fascist paradise. Sheeit...WTH happened to us?

[raynus1]

@bluecollarcanuck : (This is getting fun!) One of the (many) reasons for the cancellation of the CF-105 program was because it had NO foreign orders. Nobody wanted it (although Great Britain did briefly express interest). Honestly, Canadians need to get a grip. The Arrow was a leading-edge design, but only one of many in the late 1950's.

[bluecollarcanuck]

@raynus1 What Canadians need to do is throw out the chuckleheads in Ottawa. We could have sold the Arrow even to allied, non-NATO countries. Can't fathom why other countries didn't want to buy these. POlitics aside, maybe A.V. Roe could've sold them better (?) Either way, kissing (UN)cle Sam's ass. The proud tradition of dicking our troops continues.

[raynus1]

@bluecollarcanuck: Why no foreign orders? After several years, $340M in taxpayer dollars, a substandard acquisition and targeting system (that required significant re-tooling of the airframe to fix), a plethora of teething problems, zero live weapons testing, competition from the F-4 Phantom, BAC Lightning, Convair F-106, and several other proven fighters, it became apparent that the Arrow was off its mark.

[bluecollarcanuck]

@raynus1 Others who were in the RCAF and previous servicemen might beg to differ. Every airframe/weapon/uniform/kit system design has problems, and usually ends up in the system with all kinds of hidden costs due to sleazy backroom deals. Prime example? The LSVW trucks that came into service in 1996 or so. Worst POS vehicles ever bought for the CF. (I should know, I drove that pile of crap myself when I was in.)

[dappawap]

My point is, these decisions are never black and white and have nothing to do with which machine is better. Some governments are about doing business with its neighbours and others are about maintaining national pride. Perhaps one day we will have one in the middle.

[8BALT]

@banjer4u

How very short sighted of you. Look at all the superior Delta wing interceptors on the market. The Arrow would have been a great building block for future fighters. That's what real scientists do. Look at the F-22. Do you think that would have happened if the states scrapped the F-15, F-16 and F-18 which it shares many systems with? You need a solid starting point and the Arrow was exactly that.

[dappawap]

It was the height of the cold war and they were worried about missiles blowing up over our country. It became one of the biggest brain drains in history when the project was scrapped.

[raynus1]

@pierre766: Clueless liberal. The CF-101 was a 1200mph, highly manueverable interceptor, that carried a deadly array of IR-guided and nuke-tipped missiles/rockets while boasting a 1500 mile range. It possessed a ROC that would push the bird to 35,000' from brake release in just over 90 seconds. It served Canada very well for over two decades, and at $4m per copy, should be considered a bargain.

Bomarcs, not Pershings. 'Afghanistan', not 'Aphganistan'

Go back to sipping your latte'.

[banjer4u]

By the time it was cancelled it had cost us $470,000,000 and we still didn't have an operational fighter, only prototypes. All political parties agreed to axe it. For roughly 1/4 of what we spent on the Arrow, we got 66 operational CF 101's that could out manouver the Arrow, had much farther range, and were only slightly slower. Not one single military pilot or tech that I have talked to says they would have traded there Voodoo for an Arrow. It had to go for the good of Canada. Get over it.

[Ignice850]

you idiot, voodoos were nicknamed widow makers cause pilots who flew them during the korean war couldnt turn fast enough and they ended up crashing into the ground you imbecile...and only a few pilots tested the arrow how would other pilots know the voodoo was better than the arrow

[banjer4u]

I suggest that before you enter into name calling and mud slinging that you do a little researce. To begin with the F-101 Voodoo was built in 1954 and saw first operational service in 1959. The Korean war ENDED in 1953. The Lockhead 104 Starfighter was the plane nicknamed the widowmaker not the Voodoo. Its nickname was the One Oh Wonder, a testament to its agility. The F-101 flew 35,000 missions in Viet Nam and they lost only ONE in air to air combat. I will refrain attacking your intellect.

[banjer4u]

Correction the Voodoo was first operational in 1957. The F-104 or widowmaker as you refered to it first saw operational service in 1958. It followed the Voodoo in setting the world airspeed record. It also was built and first flew in 1954 again, after the Korean war had ended.

[RedWingedAngel7]

Cancelling it was one of the biggest mistakes our government has ever made.

It was such a beautiful plane too...

[Glaruf]

What an awesome symbol of canadian engineering this would've been. Too bad... too bad..

[Knoss]

They actually thought Mach 2 bombers were going to be the big threat. Soon after it was realized maneuverability, pilot view and versatility were more important than speed.

[pipermike65]

mach 2 bombers were a threat. bears were still invading our airspace till the 80's

[Knoss]

Bears were sub sonic. The fault with this aircraft and similar 1950's designs was that they gave up maneuverability for speed.