Unraveling the Spalding-Rigdon Theory Pt. 1

[newtonchr]

@shitbrick999 Thanks shit brick......can I call you shit head instead?

[newtonchr]

@shitbrick999 Good Luck to you as well, beer drinker. Everything you said was completely opinion. Not one word of it was worth listening to. You left that church because you were looking for a fight. I love how that stake president didn't care if you did not didn't stay. I also love how you are trying to drag your family down with you. If you can't be happy, why should anyone else, right. Everyone who watched this saw you for what you were, A pissed off man with an agenda. Way to go tard

[CounterCultureLives]

Isn't that background music from the movie that stared Kevin Costner??

What was the name of that movie????? .........

........ Oh, yeah!! "Dances With Lamanites"!!

[ExmormonFoundation]

@CounterCultureLives

LOL!

[newtonchr]

@ExmormonFoundation This was the poorest presentation I have ever seen in my life. "Let's go drink some beer' at the end. Priceless. I loved it. You fuckers are so funny. 

[newtonchr]

@CounterCultureLives Thank God this asshole is out of the Mormon Church for good. It's very clear he was looking for a fight. If you don't like the church, just leave, you don't have to drag it out like this dumb ass did. I'm not mormon, but I attend church and live in a Mormon community. They don't want outside forces coming in just like Baptist don't want Methodist coming in , just like Catholics don't Jews coming into to their fold. This guy is a piece of shit, I could easily tell.

[ExmormonFoundation]

@newtonchr

Another well reasoned reply from a "non Mormon" it's good that Mormonism is attracting the likes of such high minded folks these days, but then it has often had to struggle to convince people of reason and erudition to join its ranks, so good for you!

Keep up the good work, you're doing Mormon Inc. proud.

p.s. might we suggest the following site to aid you in your studies: MormonThink d o t c o m. A truly great site run by Mormons.

[newtonchr]

@ExmormonFoundation I don't study. Why, you may ask. Because the world is filled with dumb asses like you and the "beer drinker". You guys are all a fucking joke. "No, we are correct"...."No we are".....None of you know shit. If you don't like the LDS people, then fucking leave. No one cares. If you do like them, join up and attend 'their church. No, we couldn't do that. Jesus wants us to change them to our side. It;s a waste of time and this organization is such a bunch of hypocrites.

[ExmormonFoundation]

@newtonchr

Alrighty then. Good luck with all of that.

[CounterCultureLives]

@newtonchr Tell'em!! Who needs to study when such crass, vulgar, mindless, moronic rhetoric comes so easily??

[CounterCultureLives]

@newtonchr Nice little tirade you have going there, "newtonchr"!! Now, have you anything of substance to bring to the table?? BTW, profanity is simply the work of the feeble mind attempting to express itself forcefully.

[hammerogod]

@newtonchr

..."Baptist don't want Methodist coming in , just like Catholics don't Jews coming into to their fold"...

You are kidding, aren't you?

You can't possibly be serious.

I went to Catholic School (K thru 8th grade) and we were the only school in the town I lived in where the Jewish kids came. (this was in the 50's and early 60').

They were comfortable and welcomed.

And I have attended MANY Methodist services as a Baptist because I married a Methodist woman.

You Mormons reek!

[newtonchr]

@hammerogod I tell you what shit for brains. Go tell a Jew that you want him to learn about your church, that somehow you want to save him through your religion. He will tell you to eat shit so quick you won't know what hit you. Yes, religions want to be civil with one another, you can ask questions, give opinion's, that type of stuff. How many wars has this world fought over religion. Hundreds! That's what I'm referring to you. General speaking, religious people marry their own.

[hammerogod]

@newtonchr

.."I tell you what shit for brains"...

No, you won't

You would have to know some shit before you could tell me anything.

Poor baby, did I piss you off?

Good.

Now have a beer or take a pill and get over it.

[newtonchr]

@hammerogod haha nice try hammer head penis.... I think I pissed you off you beer drinker........are you and the beer drinker sweet on one another? I bet you are.......is that why you guys hate Mormons so bad........that frown upon your kind you know hhhahhahah eat shit you fucking loser.

go make some gun videos with your wife.

[GmaM11]

@newtonchr What a great example of the love of the Mormon people for those who no longer agree with them. We should make it into an ........and I'm a Mormon video.

[newtonchr]

@GmaM11 I'm not Mormon you idiot. I could care less what they believe. I'm just saying the guy is an asshole looking for a fight.....and a fight he got........he got kicked out of the lds church on his beer drinking ass......I think you are another pissed off asshole, just like the rest.....you should make a video .......and I'm dumb ass, can't you tell.

[GmaM11]

@CounterCultureLives Touche!!!!! Well Done.

[CounterCultureLives]

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[boydslittlefactory]

I thoroughly enjoyed the video series. The Book of Mormon is an obvious fake, regardless of who actually wrote it. It certainly had Holland upset , as evidenced by his "appeal to emotions" talk. Thanks for making this information available on youtube.

[ExmormonFoundation]

@boydslittlefactory

Glad you enjoyed the presentation.

All the best, -EMF

[WildernessOfTruth]

It should be noted that Prof. Criddle's findings in his study are in direct opposition to that of many other BoM computer word-print studies. One such study by Berkley Group (done entirely by non-LDS researches who unlike Dan Vogel had no apparent agenda to advance) determined that the odds of Spalding having written the book of Alma (the BoM book w/ the most historical content) were less than 1 in 30 billion. Odds of him writting other books within the BoM were even more remote.

[SkeptikToo]

You are not credible! Your wikipedia gleaned information is wrong.

2 of 5 Berkeley Group were LDS, especially John Hilton.

ComeToZarahemla d o t o r g, search for word print,

near bottom in Authorship BoM

Dan Vogel had absolutely nothing to do with Stanford Study.

Search thefoyer d o t o r g for Criddle

Dan Vogel does NOT support Spalding Theory.

For Vogel's own words, search mormondiscussions d o t c o m for Dan Vogel discusses Spalding

Please check your facts

See MormonThink d o t c o m

[ExmormonFoundation]

Excellent points Skeptiktoo. Wilderness, we are not a bunch of ignorant rubes, we took it all very seriously, so much so that it lead us out of Mormonism due to the overwhelming evidence which shows such to be a complete & utter fraud. As Skeptiktoo has shown, your sources are flawed and don't support the evidence and I too would like to suggest that you do more research and try and question the certainty of your position. It only impedes one's discovery & acceptance of truth.

All the best.

[WildernessOfTruth]

Exmo. With all due respect I'm afraid your logic is flawed. If Oliver was in on the supposed BoM con it seems extremely odd he didn't denounce the plot when he was excommunicated or after supposed fellow conspirator J. Smith was killed and Rigdon more than 500 mi away from the church, so not much in the way of reprisals. At the very least he'd have stayed away from the church but he chose to come back. Duped through hypnosis? Seems unlikely since J.S. is not known to have had any such powers.

[ExmormonFoundation]

Why would it be odd for him to behave this way? Why is Oliver so important & not David Whitmer? Whitmer thought Smith a fallen prophet and a fraud following the BoM's debut, which shows his own disconnect as well. The previous example I sited stands. Folks will believe & defend the absurd, it's done all the time. I know you think this is a safe defense, but the Mormon Church rises and falls on evidence, not the ability of an individual to remain or desire to remain within said group.

[ExmormonFoundation]

The evidence shows the BoM to be a complete farce with no origin in antiquity or reality. This is like debating how Tolkien came up with middle-earth and where the location of the Shire and Mordor really were. It is fun for some to try and piece those historical puzzle pieces together, but for the rest of us it is sufficient to note that the BoM is a fraudulent enterprise with zero credibility and evidential support for its claims.

[WildernessOfTruth]

kackyful. Sorry I wasn't able to further elaborate on my arguments. You know, many times I find it a real challenge to summarize all my thoughts in <500 characters. But since you requested it I'll be happy to supply you w/ "my" facts:

the picture the authors of 'The Spalding Enigma' paint of Oliver Cowdery differs substantially from the historical Oliver. Why? And if Oliver really was a part of the BoM conspiracy why did he never renounce his testimony of the plates even away from the church?

[ExmormonFoundation]

That's really a dumb defense of Oliver. How did James Strang get four of the eleven witnesses to the BoM, three of Joseph Smith's apostles & a leading bishop of his church all to testify to their dying day that Strang's plates, his translation and his prophetic calling were all authentic?

It's not difficult to dupe gullible, naive people, who afterward don't want to admit they were duped. Either Oliver was duped or he was in on the con; neither makes him look very good.

The BoM is a con.

[amaxamon]

@ExmormonFoundation One of my favorite arguments against the dotty "witnesses" testimony. If they're real then the Milk Miracle in India was real too! I'm a little biased since I see evidence for oral transmission in BOM - which wd indicate a staged "translation" with face in hat etc. We'll never know for sure.

[WildernessOfTruth]

Yes, I'm sure the authors of 'The Spalding Enigma' would disagree w/ me just as I'm sure a host of other authors and scholars (LDS and non-LDS alike) would diagree entirely w/ their finds and conclusions. And yes, I'm aware of Prof. Craig's study. But thanks for pointing it out anyway. Keep in mind Dan Vogel (renowned LDS critic and Spaulding theory supporter) orchestrated this study and it can hardly be argued that his word-sprint analysis is devoid of bias.

[WildernessOfTruth]

Thanks for your gentleman-like manners. But saying that the BoM was "clearly proven" to be fraud is a pretty strong statement. If you're so confident in this theory the most you could say is "we have good reason to believe" or it is "highly likely" that the theory explains the origin of the BoM. But lets be honest (academically and w/ ourselves): the theory as it stands does NOT clearly prove the BoM to be fraud. It does not ansker key questions and often times contradicts well known facts.

[ExmormonFoundation]

I'm sure the authors of "Who Wrote the Book of Mormon" would have another opinion on the matter entirely, as well as Prof. Craig Criddle who will be presenting a word studies paper at the Foundation's conference this October. You can get more info on this by visiting our site at exmormon foundation d o t o r g.

The statement made that the BoM is a fraud stands on other evidences outside of the Spaulding/Rigdon Theory showing such to be of 19th century origins not antiquity.

best, -EMF

[WildernessOfTruth]

The Spalding-Rigdon theory crumbles upon closer scrutiny. It's interesting that the notion of a "second" Spalding manuscrispt didn't surface until after the original manuscript was retrieved and found to have almost no resemblance to the BoM. More importantly, the theory blatantly ignores and does not account for important and well established early Mormon church hisory facts. Not to mention that the greater part of the theory is based on conjecture and convenient interpretation of known facts.

[ExmormonFoundation]

Thanks for sharing. Fortunately the veracity of the BoM is not in question as it has been clearly proven to be absurd and fraudulent without the aid of the Rigdon/Spaulding connection. However for some it's fun to speculate and question nonetheless.

All the best. -EMF

[kackyful]

Wilderness, you keep stating "facts". Would you mind doing a little lifting here and sending us some of *your* facts? Just because you say they are there, doesn't make it so.

[cesarcris]

Exmos are realy funny, they have some mind reading ability and they know without knowing me that I didn't do no research ROFL

[cesarcris]

Now seriously

A research should be balanced that is written in all academic handbooks. If the research isn't balanced so we don't have here a research. We have merely an biased opinion

[cesarcris]

And you don't even comment why this "researcher" ignored sources from the Tanners and Brodie.

[ExmormonFoundation]

Thanks for stopping by. All the best in your continued studies.

[GiftoAll]

"Hyrum G. Smith" Direct decendant of Hyrum, aged about 102 years old and previous patriarch of the LDS church was recently asked 100 questions about church history. This private meeting included a wide variety of questions the lds church labels as anti mormon lies. Every one of the responses were "YES" to the anti mormon claims. YES, they are true!

Smith has one foot in the grave and there is no reason for him to start lying now!

You need to rethink where Mormon doctrine came from.

[cesarcris]

Probably you are talking about Hyrum Gibbs Smith who died in 1932 with 53 years lol

So could you help me "to rethink about the Mormonism" giving me the reference? ROFL

I have a feeling I'm going to enjoy to know the source

[GiftoAll]

I hope this questioning person will write it down it their journal for future reference. Most of the questions were related to Josephs polygamy. He verified these as true, most of which came from Todd Compton and other exmormon intellectuals who pulled this information from archived Church documents. Now, they are locked up and no one can read them.

Intellectuals are 1 out of 3 of the most threatening enemies to the church. Mormon doctrine says that Intelligence is the glory of God. Go figure!

[cesarcris]

Interesting so you are quoting from documents that are locked. If they are locked I wonder how they had acess to locked documents LOL

Anyway it's easy to quote "locked documents" Let me give you an example.

I read a document saying that a guy named GiftoALL, that uses to post hate comments in youtube about the LDS people, is a fool, because he believes in all the anti mormon especulation.

Believe me all of this is written in a locked document in Salt Lake ROFL

[GiftoAll]

These Mormon intellectuals had open access to all of the old papers for decades. Even Jerald and Sandra Tanner reference church owned documents and are called liars. Today, what came straight from the horses mouth is considered to be a fraud by the lds membership.

It wasn't too long ago that the church denied futher access to these journals and papers.

Oops! The cat leaped outa the bag and was wisked away to the dungeon.

How convienient!

[cesarcris]

I also think is very convenient to quote some unknown documents.

BTW your unknown documents are not very accurate because Hyrum G Smith never had 102 years.

[GiftoAll]

This is absolutely NOT false witness and his age is not important. Wouldn't you like to hear the truth and know the results or will you keep your head in the sand? If you have doubts, call or write to him or contact another one of your leaders and see if these things are true. Don't let them tell you these things shouldn't be discussed. Do you own research. If anyone tells you NOT to read something, it should be considered a RED WARNING FLAG of deceit.

[cesarcris]

The age is not important? If one detail is wrong how can we know all the other details are correct?

Yes it is false witness and you are not being humble enough to admit your inacuracies.

BTW I don't have to research because the burden of proof is in your side. Just to remind you:

1) You did an acusation against the Church using an affivadit of an old patriarch

2) I asked the reference of the affivadit

3) You didn't give the reference and your excuse was that was in "hidden" document

[GiftoAll]

It's "affidavit" not affivadit.

I never said there was an affidavit. You made that up.

It was an interveiw.

[cesarcris]

"It's "affidavit" not affivadit"

Sorry english isn't my native language.

Affidavit or interview whatever, I'm still waiting for the reference.

[GiftoAll]

You are a child and haven't seen the church morph to fit society over the years. The PR department willfully spouts the goodness and hides the dubious things that happened in the early years. Why should your leaders want to hide anything if it is the only true church? Skeletons in the closet are not lies, they are skeletons.

[cesarcris]

"You are a child and haven't seen the church

Good vocabulary.... I'm a 39 years old child Loool

BTW I never saw a child asking for credible sources.

Anyway let me tell you I enjoyed this conversation you amused me a lot.

[GiftoAll]

A valid question. Is the glory of God intelligence? Mormon doctrine says it is. How can you become a glorified being with intelligence by listening to people that tell you the Bible is corrupt and investigating anything that doesn't have the church stamp of approval is a lie?

[cesarcris]

The Church never said to do not investigate "anything that doesn't have the church stamp of approval is a lie? "

In the Church doctrine I only know the 13th article of faith:

"If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things"

As you see doesn't say "anything with the Church stamp"

[GiftoAll]

Do you think that Oliver Cowderys' letter describing Josephs "dirty, nasty, filthy affair" with Fanny Alger is virtuous, lovely or of good report?

Another reason Joseph was killed was because he tried to cover up his adultery by destroying the Nauvoo expositor.

[GiftoAll]

Have you looked into the witness' description of how Joseph translated the plates in the beginning? It began with Joseph placing a rock in a hat, then placing his head in the hat to block out the light.

[cesarcris]

Interesting subjects but I don't see the relevance to what we were discussing. HO I see you are out of arguments and now you are trying to change the subject.

Hey giftoall posting the last comment will not give you the "victory" in this discussion and whatever you say everybody already saw you guys don't use credible and objective sources to your "hate Gospel" preaching

[GiftoAll]

You are very welcome.

[GiftoAll]

Let me reference something. The Bible is the word of God and his word will last forever. The scribes never left out anything like Mormon doctrine. Mormon doctrine disagrees with the New Testament.

You have been spoon fed a pack of lies that were made up by a man. Joseph was just a man and he will never become a God. The Bible tells us this.

[cesarcris]

The bible also says that we shouldn't preach false witness about your neighbour. So my friend in the future if you want to say something about the LDS people you better use credible sources

[cesarcris]

Interesting that all his primary sources are all anti-mormon stuff. If he was doing a balanced research he should also used some pro-mormon sources.

And most interesting is that he ignored some anti-mormon literature (tanners and Brodie) that have criticized the Spaulding theory.

So if notorious anti-mormons don't believe in the Spaulding theory why we should believe it?

[ExmormonFoundation]

What pro-LDS sources are going to say that Spaulding is one of the sources for the BoM? Did you even think before you wrote this? Instead of being a devoted follower who comes to this presentation with your mind already made up on the matter, why not do some research instead and see if there is merit to the sources? If truth matters to you, then you should be willing to look at all sources and see if Smith's claims hold up.

All the best in your continued studies.

[cesarcris]

"What pro-LDS sources are going to say that Spaulding is one of the sources for the BoM? Did you even think before you wrote this?"

Interesting, I think you are the one who is not thinking. So you are saying a research shouldn't be balanced with different opinions! That's a new one, a very scientifical point of view (being ironic)

[ExmormonFoundation]

Hello? we were Mormons, we had all of the one sided, pro-Mormon info our entire lives, there just was not enough of that for you?

Let me spell it out for you again, Mormonism = BoM came from God. This presentation = BoM came from other sources, not divine. Seems pretty simple to me.

Please do some research! Don't come by and engage in a discussion without something to add beyond your testimony.

All the best in your studies.

[McDanna]

Thanks so much for posting this series, it really does make it easier to follow the points in this debate.

[tezkingkong]

The sound of silent Mormon rebuttal in these vids is deafening.

[IExposeMormonism]

Hey, where is oliomo and his logic? I thought he could "Tune us up" on all the errors. I have E. D. Howe, J C Bennet as clones but i do have Ellen Dickinson, "New light on Mormonism". 1884. She interviewed Hurlbut and other "original players" in the scheme. She was followed by Mormons who were (and are) well connected and had her baggage removed from her train! She, being bright, had carefully removed here papers. You can t be too careful with the insidious Mormon Octopus.

[tezkingkong]

Now that IS interesting.

[exmoagogo]

Hey I just found a luomio on youtube and guess what? He sounds just like omiolo, omiolo1 and omiolo2. There really is a resurrection! He gets banned and like a whack a mole he pops back up!

[Tavlo]

The creativity kills me!!

[tezkingkong]

LOL...

[awolLDSasap]

I just found an omioloLDS. He said that Joseph Smith is a false prophet. LOL!

[tezkingkong]

Not to mention osmiolos !!!

[fenneljay]

Mormons hate the idea that Smith was not even a good writer and con man, just a co conspirator.

To a Mormon, is every historian an antiMormon?

[Tavlo]

Yes fenneljay, every historian... because history, and reality contradict the lies and twists that the LDS organization has been feeding it's followers all their lives.

[CounterCultureLives]

@fenneljay Only the historians, anthropologists, archaeologists, and other experts who delve into such nonsensical drivel as facts, evidence, objective review, and critical scrutiny!!

You 'anti's" are all alike................... picky, picky, picky!!

[omiolo2]

It is sad to see the beautiful music in the beginning tied to such garbage from the video.

why do ANTImormons ruin good things?

[ExmormonFoundation]

It's what we do best.

All the best in your continued studies!

[Tavlo]

"It is sad to see the beautiful music in the beginning tied to such garbage from the video. "

That's amazing! I feel the same way... about Mormon videos.

[mattox21]

hehe yeah, gotta love that manufactured Spirit :)

[tezkingkong]

Oh,so you actually watched it?...I think not...lol.

[exmoagogo]

Well look who's here! omiolo2. What happened to omiolo1 and plain old omiolo? Are these your new, newer and newest names from the Mormon Masonic lodge?

[Tavlo]

No exmo, it's he's like the Trinity. Bwahahahahaha!!

He's gonna shoot me for that one. :-)

Honestly: I feel bad for omiolo. Maybe one day he'll actually watch and listen to one of these videos and open his eyes to the deception and oppression he's living under.

[Tavlo]

Oops, I meant... "he's like the Trinity".

Fumble.

[exmoagogo]

What happened to omiolo1?

Let me guess. You got banned and it ate you up so bad you just had to come back like a stalker who can't take no.

Guess what? You still aren't getting anywhere.

[ExmormonFoundation]

No he wasn't banned. Unlike the Mormons, we don't ban anyone, be they black, white, apostate or even omiolo. ;)