The Watchmaker Fallacy

[aldeberaan]

great vid, i don't get the hate at all... weird

[wqpeb]

God loves you , and did love you before the world was formed.

[sanfranciscoguaynabo]

boy and then they said smoking pot don't damage the brain.......

[Undertaker202]

wait, at 2:12 you appeal to molecular physics which are subject to laws of nature relevant to chemistry, but who made those laws? Why and how are those laws in affect? When and how did they start? They unto them selves are proof of design, unless you believe they are products of chance.

[null140]

@Undertaker202 ...and the latter would be a fine choice to make! very unlikely things DO happen, yknow. being struck by lightning? relatively unlikely. winning the lottery? even less likely, but they both happen. a lot of people don't seem to understand probability. if the not only spontaneous, but ONGOING development of universal laws and processes happens by slim chance, then, well, everything is here to give evidence for that! there is NO proof of a god. at all.

[ronnoceel]

I like how people argue that god had to have had a creator, but completly ignor that energy cannot be created or destroyed. Interesting. That is why we "draw the line"

[abbesieyes]

hello nnocturne.

I think we've missed a point. Something is not defined by the noun or appelation we give it. 'Something' exists free and clear of human label and bias.

The principle of first cause is one such issue. It launched the beginning of astrology & was couched as religion, & yet it was used to launch our greatest age...the age of reason and 'cause & effect'.

That people of different bias may label it does mean it can be proven or disproven by any means yet developed.

[abbesieyes]

Forgive me, astrology should read astronomy...

[competentcompton]

hello

[markxkram]

yeah i agree to you line @ 04:06. which "Did God created God?"... thanks for this and hope others find the answer for this and prove their answer as well...

[SYmPHONICnv]

hey you don't need millions of years to create a diamonds.you don't understand purpose since you don't understand creation.

[thespist]

smoke another bong hippie

[nnocturne]

I am neither a hippie nor a pot-smoker. Sorry to disappoint.

[anarchycastro]

haha...you're a moron...go rape another sheep.

[terisu]

good vid, got me thinking

[GuidSaucy]

Part3 If we don't understand how much we need redemption, the Gospel message will mean nothing - it won't register. But that doesn't change the facts. God loves you so much is giving your life to make a choice with. So it is not a matter of proportional punishment - it's a matter of choice. Make the good choice.

[nnocturne]

One of the reasons why I take exception to monotheism is that it invents a problem ("We are all sinners") and then proposes an exclusive remedy ("Accept Jesus"). I do not believe that we are intrinsically evil. I think humans are intrinsically good and considerate. But I fear that nothing I could say would change your inherently negative view of humanity unless you open your mind to the positive nature of human beings. I'd be interested in understanding why you have a negative outlook on life.

[GuidSaucy]

"I think humans are intrinsically good and considerate."

Then you are deceived.

[nnocturne]

And here you show your bias. As stated earlier, this is where you demonstrate that you have an inherently negative view of humanity. If you choose to focus solely on the evils of our society, it is no wonder that you need a god because the only alternative in your mind to not having a god is the evil upon which you focus. It's a false dychotomy, which additionally ignores the fact that religion is to blame for much of the violence in society anyway.

[GuidSaucy]

Part2 It's not our misdeeds per se .. it is the fact that our own lives fall short. We are unfit for eternity to God. After our first sin we have condemned ourselves. We are ontologically impure. We are fit for execution, death, and destruction. God, though, provided a redeemer. He took our place in execution. We need to understand how intrinsically evil we really are.

[nnocturne]

Here, again, this god clearly shows a distinct lack of proportionality in his judgement. Your point would be a lot more cogent if you were defending the correct theological nature of Hell, as Sheol, the "common grave", a cessation of all consciousness. If Sheol were your stance, I'd have no problem with it. As an atheist, this is already what I believe: no afterlife and therefore no incentive to become a Christian.

[nnocturne]

Yet he punishes finite misdeeds with infinite torment. That is neither just nor proportionate. If we do not sentence our children to death for stealing, how can you justify that your god will (if it exists) sentence me to eternity in Hell for not believing in him? If I'm imperfect yet I'm able to show mercy to a child who steals an apple without being disproportionate, how can you possibly deem your deity to be just when my finite sin will condemn me to eternal Hell?

[GuidSaucy]

Part1 Good question. Our 'misdeeds' some we might construe to be minor and then we burn forever?

That's not the point. The Lord has put two bowls before you: one filled with cool water, one filled with boiling torment. Your choice.

[nnocturne]

Apologies, I was not issued with an alert regarding your reply.

The point remains unchanged, you've merely made a semantic clarification. He still punishes finite sins with infinite behaviour (regardless of our knowledge or ignorance of the rules). His justice is disprortionate and lesser than human justice which traditionally opposes "cruel and unusual" punishments.

[nnocturne]

To expand on this idea, imagine that I said "Friend, if you give me your money, I will not shoot you. But if you don't, I will", then sat down, allowing you to choose.

What you have in my example and in your defence of this deity's wrath is not a loving warning, but a cold and malicious threat. No more, no less. It's intimidation and cohersion.

[GuidSaucy]

Part2 Think of the story where Jesus was accused by the priest because his disciples were picking corn on the Sabbath - "I am the Lord of the Sabbath Day." was His reply - He's King. God is all-powerful, yet has told us He loves us and wants us to love Him .. and so it goes ..

[GuidSaucy]

Part1 Commandments .. hmm .. the Russian Kings would sometimes make a law, have everyone else follow it, then openly break it themselves. The King is the maker of the law .. law flows from the King. But the King is not beholden to the law - he essentially is above it.

[nnocturne]

Absolutely. But nobody's disputing that Ivan IV of Russia (for instance) was a ghastly person who caused much pain, suffering and death under his rule. It's called despotism or tyranny. It is not right, just or ethical. I realize that your god is not democratic, but one could only hope that he was not a tyrant. Unfortunately, you've just confirmed that he is.

[GuidSaucy]

Hi nnocturn, thnx:

God is capable of violence. In the New Covenant, we are invited to know God's love and can say 'yes' and He's provided a way. But God is "ALL" powerful and there is no real restraint on God. He is the one that will both lift up some to life and cast others to destruction. His violence is right when He applies it. It is evil that mis-applies violence. Do no harm to your neighbour.

[nnocturne]

Thank you for your response. I'm imperfect but even I ethically believe that violence is never acceptable. With all due respect, even if I did believe in the god of Abraham, I could not possibly bring myself to worship a deity who does not follow his own commandments.

[GuidSaucy]

Hi NNocture: Yes, there is violence in the design. And some violence is intelligent. E.g. splitting the atom is essentially a violence - so perhaps is defending one's friend from an attacker. There is even technique and intelligence in the administration of some brutal violences e.g. cruise missiles (whether we like them or not). So please explain how it does not compute .. thanks. :)

[nnocturne]

Are you therefore claiming that this deity is therefore violent? Violence is but one trait that derails your logic. The same could be said about the accumulation of knowledge or the passing of time. You cannot attach human traits to a supernatural deity who is allegedly omniscient, outside of time and beyond human emotion.

[GuidSaucy]

A quality of the universe is intelligence. You are an example. You are part of the universe. You are intelligent. The universe, then is intelligent. So how can you say there is no intelligent design? A quality of that which is is intelligence.

[nnocturne]

A quality of the universe is violence... Nope, sorry, your logic does not compute.

[bender64850]

Superb video!

I couldn't have said it better.

[moorerandi]

really enjoyed this, thanks!