Its the same concept when I evangelize on the street, or share my faith with a friend. I don't know who God will save, nobody does but God, so we preach the gospel to all people, and His sheep will hear His voice and respond with a repentant faith. The gospel is a command to all people, not a plea.
@barnabastexas Even you had to say yes to put your faith in Christ. it wasn't till later, till you learned that you were zapped with salvation. Here is the delima for you. if you witness to a person and they reject the Gospel, this means that they made a choice, which Calvinist say that men don't have a free will to choose.
You can't have it both ways. If a man rejects the gospel he rejected it from free will.
@carpentersdaughter2 From a Reformed perspective, I would say the person who walks away from the gospel message has not made a choice, but they are simply doing what we all do in our natural (unsaved) condition...rebel and continue in sin. That's all we CAN do prior to salvation (thus no freedom of choice) because we lack faith. Adam made a choice in the garden because he was already in fellowship with God. You and I have freewill now that we're saved, but it's for obedience not salvation.
@barnabastexas Try as hard as you want but to say that those who reject Christ, ARE making a decision, making a choice....to reject something takes action on our part...this means we think about it before we say no, and no is an action which is a choice. You can't see it because you have been engrained to think it.
@carpentersdaughter2 Faith and Repentance are both gifts from God, they are not already in us as we decide on our "choice". We know this from the following scriptures: John 3:27, 6:63-65; Phi 1:29; 2Pet 1:1; Act 16:14; Act 18:27; Eph 2:8-10 (Faith) and Act 5:3; Act 11:18; 2Tim 2:25-26; 1Cor 4:7 (Repentance). We know from Psalm 14 and 53 that no one is righteous and no one seeks after God. No one. Seeks. After God. Until He steps in, grants a repentant faith and saves someone for His glory.
@barnabastexas I have no qurral with what you just said. here's the problem though. you and other Calvinist don't give the Holy Spirit His Due in being able to convict a wretched man of his sins. You weaken the job of the HOly Spirit by this teaching.
Yes a man can't come to God on His own, He has to be Called by God, but that's where we differ. a man can reject the gospel. John Calvin's god is sadistic, immoral, and loves to make people suffer. that sorry being is send to hell by his creator
@carpentersdaughter2 Actually, the number one argument Calvinists have Arminians like yourself is that you are the one who doesn't give all glory to God. We are monergists, meaning the entire act of salvation is due to the work of the Holy Spirit as God is granting a repentant faith to someone. Your point of view says that God would like to save someone, but His hands are tied due to a man's unbelief. God is limited in power and reduced to a beggar in your view. Not Biblical.
@carpentersdaughter2 Take Romans 9:16-18 "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."
The plain reading of scripture is that God is sovereign and He decides who to display mercy to, and who to display wrath. Not man.
@carpentersdaughter2 Rom 9:22-24 "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
@carpentersdaughter2 So clearly God is indeed making vessels of wrath (the lost) and vessels of mercy (the saved). Both of these glorify God in that His judgment is shown and His love is shown. The part you miss is that God is not GOING to condemn men, they are already condemned because we are all born into sin. It's not that God is sitting in heaven and creating more people just so they can burn, because before time began (as scripture says) it was determined.
@carpentersdaughter2 This will be my last post sister. I wish you much Grace and Love in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. To Him, and Him alone, be glory and honor forever and ever.
@carpentersdaughter2 Calvinism is not a label that Calvinists want or asked for, but it is useful for discussion between Calvinism and Arminianism. We don't follow Calvin, we follow scripture. You may have heard of Martin Luther, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon? Luther of course began the Reformation which is why we have Protestant churches for worship. All of these men were "Calvinists" too.
@barnabastexas You know when I was a Mormon we believed very strongly that what we believed were the scriptures. You see all people in cults think that they are reading scripture, and not the teachings of their leader. The coralation between cults and Calvinims is extemely similar. both need a leader, both need to say that scripture doesn't really say that. and that we have the truth while no one else has...so you see, here you hae Calvin as the leader.....
...and that some scriptures really don't mean everyone but only the chosen, then Calvinist believe that only they have the truth....so while you may be in denial of this, the very fact is, Calvinism is just another cult with a leader who twisted scripture and beleive only he has the scriptures right.
I was told I believed in Joseph Smith and I would say to them, no, he was just a man...but the truth was, Ole Joseph Smith was glorified beyond belief. all Mormons think like this.
You asked me earlier to stop responding, and then you ask me a question, so I'm confused. I don't want to disrespect your wishes on your site so I won't answer any more questions unless you express that you want me to.
As to 1 Timothy 2, the context is that this is the first century church and it was an EXTREMELY radical idea for Jews to consider that salvation was for Gentiles as well as the Jew. Paul is saying that they should preach the gospel to the Gentiles...all man kind.
@barnabastexas I'm sorry about that. Right now I am talking to you and two other Calvinist, Then I have a Universalist who says all men are saved, then I have a Mormon who's given me a hard time, then there's a person from the Sacred Name Movement, so I have a lot on my plate right now. Each of these foks are out to prove me wrong, rather then have a decent dialgoue.
@carpentersdaughter2 Sister, let me assure you that I do not want to be a burden to you. Theological discussions are beneficial for sharpening, but it should never make us weary or be a point of division between us (Rom 16:17). The gospel message is to repent, and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. We agree on this and so we are family. I commend you for contending for the faith with unbelievers...Universalists, Mormons, and whatever the Sacred Name Movement is (new to me). Strength in Jesus
@barnabastexas I understand that, and no you are not a burden. We are in the Lord, and that's what's important. Some think that Calvinist aren't saved, but that's nonsense. I just think that there is a big misunderstand of God and how He works...and I sure you will feel the same way..:)
The SNM is a legalestic movement that says if you do not say Jesus's Name in Hebrew, you are not saved. Plus they have a works based gospel. It's growing big on YT.
When was your name written into the Lamb's book of life? Revelation 13:8 has the answer. It was not written there when you walked forward at church, or when you said "the prayer". Jesus is not a common beggar on the street, just hoping that someone will choose Him. He came to earth to save His bride, the church, which was chosen before time began. That's what scripture says
@barnabastexas I don't disagree with those scriptures, but I do disagree with Calvins interperation of them.
John 3:16 For God so love the WORLD...now look up world in the Greek here and you will see that in this context that is says ALL, EVERYONE....God loves the World so much that HE gave His everlasting son..
This means everyone, not just the chosen. He died for everyone but not everyone will accept this gift.
Jesus is not a beggar so don't say we believe that.
Did Israel choose God? Or did God choose Israel and set them apart as His people? Does God change? Have you read Romans 8 and 9? Not just short verses here and there, but reading the whole chapter, the whole book to understand the context. God said He loved Jacob, but hated Esau (Romans 9:13), not because of anything they did, but because it was His will.
@barnabastexas God choose Israel so the Messiah will have a line of people to come through. Also so we will know that God is patient. Now have you done a study on the word Hate in Hebrew? Well, I have, and the word hate doesn't have the same meaning as our hate, in English.
Jesus commanded us to love, not hate, and yet, you put the English meaning of hate into that scripture. This makes God out a hypocrite, do as I say and not as I do...is that how God operates?
The Hebrew maning of hate is "To Love Less" Not to despise, detest, loath as Calvinist would teach us..No, the word for hate is to love less, which is a whole different slant on things. Otherwise we have a bible where God contridicts Himself. Jesus said if we hate someone it's like murdering that person. That's how strong the word is, so don't tell me about Jacob and Esau, because God did not hate Esau.
@carpentersdaughter2 Actually, you're incorrect. The Hebrew word used in the original passage from Malachi is Sane'. Sane' is word number 8130 in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. Sane' means, "to hate, be an enemy, to be unloved, to be hated, to be shunned, to be an adversary, be a foe"...etc. It obviously means "to be hated" as we understand it in English.
@barnabastexas Again, you are wrong, because the word Sane, which actually means to depart from, move away from, Not hate as in English hate as I said.
Now the Hebrew word for Hate as in hating someone is this There are many other Hebrew words that would correspond better to our modern understanding of hate: bazah (despise), ma'as (to loathe), to'evah (abominable). So ask yourself, "Do I really hate my little brother?"
@carpentersdaughter2 Do you own a Bible concordance? I'm giving you the Hebrew straight off the page, black ink on white paper. Sane' means hate as you understand the word hate in English....that's why the English translators used the word hate...THEY COULD HAVE USED LOVED LESS, right? Look up the Hebrew.
@barnabastexas Here's what you are doing wrong. The concordance has flaws in that when you are looking at the context of a word. It will give you a meaning when there could be several meanings to a word. I have a strongs concordance but I don't rely on it because it has flaws, so I stay away from anything that has flaws such as a strongs concordance. I want to know the meaning of that word in the context of what is written.
@carpentersdaughter2 Well then you've simply made up your mind to reject anything that doesn't fit with your own ideas, your own version of God. The evidence is here and anyone else reading this can seek the truth for themselves and look up the Hebrew and see that I am right.....and you are the one twisting things to fit what you want it to say. Peace to you.
@barnabastexas The same words can be described to you as well. I do not follow the teachings of a man who murdered people who disagreed with his teachings. The man had as apostate as his spiritual leader, and you guys want me to swollow the same poison you''ve swollowed.
You are right, I will not budge from what the bible teaches.Why won't I budge? Because I did an extensive study with a Calvinist friend, and everytime we came to a verse where the words, NONE, or Whosoever, Or World
she would tell me, oh that word doesn't mean everyone, it means the chosen...this happened everytime a word came up that said World, Whosoever, Any....that all these words meant the chosen..
So God loved the chosen that he gave his only begotton son???? NONSENSE, this is how cults get people by telling them that word in the bible doesn't mean what they say...Calvinist have taken words and twisted them to mean something different. This is why I won't swollow that poison.
@barnabastexas Also, here's the problem with that Calvinistic teaching. It makes God contridict Himself. do you honestly think that Jesus is going to tell us not to hate, when he hates? There is no biblical logic to this. God doesn't say, do as I say, not as I do to us...He is consistent in His Nature and He is consistent with us. He is not going to tell us to do something different, especially since Jesus said to be like Him.
so is Jesus telling us to hate people or not to hate..which is it?
@carpentersdaughter2 God hasn't told us to hate anyone. Scripture says He hated Esau, not me. You and I are no better than Esau in that we are born enemies of God. It is by God's mercy that he chooses to save anyone, but He does the choosing. It is all because of Him, and you and I bring nothing to the equation.
@barnabastexas God did not hate Esau as the Calvinist teach. God loved Jacob more and that's what that means....period!!!!
I know we can't bring anything to salvation, but you have been engrained to believe that choosing or making a decision isn't biblical. The Bible is clear that we are to make a choice..
Choose you this day whom you will serve....so I am sure that calvinist will say, that means something different.
@carpentersdaughter2 Who was Joshua speaking to when he said "Choose this day whom you will serve"? (Joshua 24) He was speaking to Israel, God's people. He was NOT speaking to the lost world. It would be no different than if you stood up in your church and said to other Christians, "choose this day whom you will serve". It's about God's people walking in obedience. It has nothing to do with salvation. You have to read scripture in context.
@barnabastexas I will concede that you are correct in your statement. God was speaking to Israel on this.
How will you twist this scripture?
1 Timothy 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires ALL MEN to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
@carpentersdaughter2 Which is why Bible scholars and translators across the centuries have translated it as "hated" when they could have said "loved less", but chose not to. Unless you believe you're actually more intelligent and literate in Hebrew than the Bible translators?
Read Jesus' High Priestly Prayer in John 17 where Jesus says, "I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
@barnabastexas I will keep saying it, the word Sane in Hebrew means to move away, to depart. it does NOT mean to loave or dispise..try checking this out again.
Yes, Jesus says here that He is not praying for the world....which the Calvinst say that " world" means chosen, Here is a perfect example of how the word World has been twisted by Calvinist.
Yes, Jesus is praying for His own here, not the world..Now if "World" means chosen to Calvinist, then why would Jesus say, not the world?
Assuming You are right and all human beings are born with this ability to choose God or reject God, What about the billions who have lived and died having never heard the name of Jeseus or the Gospel?It seems to me that this power to choose God Or reject God would be of no use to them.I find many holes in this theology.
@thebiglie1 Paul teaches that God's Laws are in every mans heart. For those who never hear the gospel or the name of Jesus will never be judged on that, but will be judged by their works on how they obeyed what God put in their hearts. Just read the Great White Throne Judgement...the books are opened, and every man is judged according to how he lived by God's Law.
Worry more about those who have heard and don't want anything to do with Christ.
I posted a comment and it has not appeared but I hope it does. Linda I tried to save this to my favorites 2 times and it fails to show up in my list. Must be a glitch of some kind. I wanted to feature on my channel for a while. Sorry I am unable to do that my friend. In Christ - John
Linda thank you for presenting the truth of the scriptures to show that man is a free will agent and is responsible for either accepting or rejecting the gospel of salvation. You laid it out so clear that it is so simple that it is difficult to understand how anyone can see it any other way. It is the same with the eternal security of the believer. There are those that teach that one can lose their salvation if they turn away or live in sin. YBIC - John
I'll take universalism, thank you. The verse in Joshua has nothing to do with salvation. Anyway, if salvation is a choice, then very few get that choice. Over 100 billion humans have already lived and died and very few had even heard of Jesus or salvation. Where's their choice? Muslims only know what the Quoran says about Jesus - no exactly the Christian Jesus. You can only make a choice if you know the alternatives.
The scripture in Joshua is to show that we have a choice to believe.
As for those who never heard the gospel or of Jesus, then they will be judged according to the law that God has put on everymans heart. This will be done at the Great White Throne Judgement.
A Historical Introduction to Calvinism (Pelagius, Augustine, Calvin, Servetus) This is an excellent teaching on how Calvinism came to be. If most Calvinist knew these facts they would reject Calvinism.
According to Jesus John Calvin did not know him: They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God. And they will do these things because THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN THE FATHER, NOR ME.
John Calvin believed in killing those who disagreed with his doctrine. Calvin believed he was doing Gods service by killing so-called heretics. Jesus said those that do this do not KNOW my FATHER or ME!
The offers of salvation to the unsaved include direct appeals to the reasoning powers of unsaved men, their inherent ability to choose, and their ability to seek after God. For example:
Isaiah 1 :18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isaiah 45 :22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isaiah 55 :6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Revelation 22 :17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
These kinds of general offers to all the unsaved strongly imply that all who choose to come can be saved. If not, the offers cannot be genuine and sincere. In today's climate, if Calvinism is true, God could be sued for false advertising.
Mankind is not physically dead. Nor, is his mental capacity to reason dead. Paul used "death" as a metaphor for a helpless condition. The posted verses, and many others, assume that man has the capacity to respond to God by his own choice, to exercise his own free will, at least when God is calling Him to repentance.
The effect of that decision is also clearly stated in the posted verses. God will save him. Therefore, it is obvious that being "dead in sins" does NOT imply the inability to accept God's offer of grace and mercy when it is presented in truth and being drawn by the Spirit. It merely implies that one cannot save himself. And that his being rescued from this condition depends entirely on God's power to save.
Wow, looks like my stalkers have showed up to bury my comments with a thumbs down. How sad that someone is so afraid to have a civil and adult debate they have to revert to silly and childish tactics to try and silence an opposing view. I guess John Calvin spirit is alive and well among his followers.
Tulip, the bible says speak the truth in love, when it isn't in love it is still truth it just won't be received. It also says that it is the spirit that gives life and the letter of the law that killeth. The sword of the spirit is the word of God it is used to set the captives free not to threaten those of the faith. Again Calvin showed a serious lack of understanding when it came to God's love he killed his enemies and sadly those who follow his theology do the same with God's word.
TULIP, I have asked you this question a few times and you have not answered. If God is able to regenerate people before salvation then why was the cross necessary? Explain to me how a Holy God can live in an unclean vessel that has not been washed in the blood of Christ etc.
TULIP, I have shown with ample evidence from scripture from both the old and new testaments that People can have faith before regeneration and that faith is how one comes or enters into a covenant with God. God said Abraham believed and I showed you he did before being put to sleep as you claimed which you later denied saying.
You provided no proof at all, just speculation and you took scripture out of context as you did with Abraham.
TULIPS, besides David was a man after God's own heart yet he forgot to guard his heart and became a murderer and an adulterer. So one can have faith in God and still wind up doing what is wrong if they do not guard their heart.
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not BELIEVE that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
Jesus empathized that it was up to them to believe, he did not tell them you should pray that God will choose you or regenerate you so you can believe.
Context is so important in correctly dividing Gods word I have found.
TULIP, I get a kick out of how you can look at scriptures and see that God does not want certain people and desires to reject them etc. but when you study the life of Christ you see evil and wicked people following Christ into a desert to listen to every word he had to say. You see prostitutes washing his feet, tax collectors and sinners eating with him etc. yet the gospel you preach does not have this effect on sinners it actually repels people from God, something I don;t think you considered.
TULIP, But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Until you understand Gods mercy you will not truly know God because his heart is full of mercy and his word says his mercy is over ALL his works. Psalms 145:9 The LORD is good to ALLl: and his tender mercies are over ALL his works.
Are there some people on earth that God did not create?
Jesus came to call sinners since all have sinned he is calling everyone.
TULIP, if you are going to change the subject and ignore the fact that you took Gods word out of context & start quoting scriptures as some sort of condemnation on me b/c I don't belief ur theology then have at it but know this I believe what Paul wrote in Rom 8:1. If U want to use Gods word to threaten & badger people to accept ur views it only shows you don't understand it or how to use the sword of the Lord correctly. I am not ur enemy I am ur brother and if I were you still have to love me.
TULIP, I hear the word of God very clearly it is ur interpretation of it that does not agree with Gods word. As I have shown numerous times here today.
TULIP, I haven't rejected Gods promises at all so I don't know why you are using the ALL here.
Jesus is the word I think we can agree on that and Paul says people cannot believe unless someone preaches the gospel. Paul also says that FAITH comes from preaching the gospel. So when someone hears the gospel they have faith available to get saved if they believe. Pretty simple it isn't a spiritual lottery system some believe and some don't if they believe they are drawn to the father.
TULIP, I agree Paul is talking to those who are saved I pointed out the fact you left out the first few words of the text which shows we as believers still have a responsibility to believe God and to stay focused on Christ. That was my point.
TULIP, you were wrong, you said that Abraham could not believe until after a covenant was made. God says he believed in vs 6 the covenant was made in vs 12. EOS.
People enter into covenants based on faith they do not get faith from entering into a covenant it comes before as it did with Abraham and as it does with all those today who come to Christ in faith they get to share in a New covenant ratified by Christ and God the father so this covenant will not fail.
TULIP, did not Abraham here Gods word? So if he heard God speak and Paul says FAITH comes from hearing God's word then it is easy to see where the FAITH came from. It came from God's word which cannot be separated from God himself. So Abraham had FAITH in GOD and Paul says this in Rom 4, Abraham persuaded himself that what God said was true.
TULIP, God made plenty of promises to people that they choose not to believe,
So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.Hebrews 3:19
So God gave a promise and they did not believe but according to ur logic if God gives a promise that is a covenant and they have to believe. Sorry Tulip but that is not how it is explained in Gods word. God wanted them to believe they didn't and so goes election.
TULIP, you can see God's election in that but we were not discussing election we were discussing faith, you made the claim Abraham could only believe after he was put to sleep and God made a covenant. I pointed out God said he believed before the covenant so ur assertion was wrong. Now to twist this into another unrelated discussion isn't being fair to the topic at hand.
TULIP, I know what you said that is why I quoted you and I know you are trying to back peddle on ur comments that as I have shown were wrong about Abraham.
TULIP, I never said at all or one time that Abraham had faith in himself. I made it very clear his faith was in God and God alone. Please try and quote me in context.
TULIP, you missed the first part of HEb 12 you quoted...."Let us fix our eyes on Jesus" if we do that then the part you quoted makes sense. You also missed vs 15, See to it that NO ONE misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
If grace is "irresistible" as Calvinist claim why would the writer of Hebrews admonish those to not miss it? If it was irresistible the verse makes no sense at all because no one could miss it.
TULIP, God made promises to Abram, these promises do not constitute a covenant. Might I suggest you do a study on what a covenant is?
When I got married I entered into a covenant relationship with my wife. God covenants involve shedding of blood which we see later with Abraham in ch15 not before.
The relationship started in Ch12 not the covenant. I love Heb 11 the hall of fame of FAITH what is the object lesson there? That no matter our past, or failures if we choose to believe God etc....
TULIP here are ur exact words, @eIe12957 But Abraham BELIEVED b/c God made the covenant, not God made the covenant b/c Abraham believed. See the difference?
In vs 12 we see God making the covenant but in vs 6 we see before the covenant God credit him with righteousness because he BELIEVED. B/C he believed, God made a covenant. Now you go back and say you didn't say that when in fact YOU DID! I just posted the proof.
When we believe we enter into a new covenant. Belief comes first.
TULIP, the Bible says in ROM 10:17 that faith COMES by hearing the word, just because it comes does not mean you get faith. You have to believe the gospel which provides the faith to receive salvation. Like Abraham he believed FIRST and then a covenant was made.
FWIW, I do not believe you are stupid, I think you are ignorant but not stupid, ignorance is a choice. Paul wrote let the ignorant remain so. 1 Cor. 14:37
TULIP, please don't change the subject, you were wrong about Abraham were you not? You said he was given faith or born again as a result of God putting him to sleep and making a covenant. We see that in Gen 15:12 but you ignore vs6 where God says Abraham believed God which was before he was asleep. Please if we are going to debate this topic at least admit you were wrong instead of changing the topic.
TULIP, faith comes from hearing the word of God Rom 10:17 you cannot separate the spirit of God from his word. Thus why the gospel needs to preach to everyone because it is in the message of the gospel that one finds faith for salvation. Paul said very clearly that people cannot believe without hearing the gospel. How you are able to separate faith from Gods; word is amazing to me.
TULIP, again you are pulling verses out of context, ....Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. vs6
The verse you quoted happens later in vs 12 so it is plan to see that Abraham was "credited" righteousness based on his believing not on a covenant as you have asserted.
Please notice how SELFISH Abraham was with God before the covenant, he wanted a child and possessions and also PLEASE notice how he addressed God he called him "O Sovereign LORD" before the covenant
Ur argument that Abraham had to be born again to have faith is false and it is easy to see that God's covenant with Abraham was a result of him believing God and he was credited righteousness before he was put to sleep and the covenant was made. Again context, context!
TULIP, John 3 does not at all support regeneration before faith and in fact the NT teaches very clearly as I have already pointed out that faith comes first and then God's life. Jesus is explaining the need for man to be born again not that God does it against mans will, if that was the context, then why did Jesus say, YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN in vs 7? Jesus empathized mans responsibility to receiving by faith the gift of salvation and that experience is being born again. Context, Context!!!!
TULIP, God made a covenant with Abraham which was a forerunner to the covenant he made with Christ on the cross for all of mankind. All Abraham had to do was BELIEVE and he was credited righteousness and in the same way all we have to do is BELIEVE and we are made righteous. Paul used Abraham as an example of faith. Abraham did not have to "hate sin" as you seem to believe is a prerequisite to salvation. Faith is required to enter grace not HATE!
TULIP, I have considered all ur points and have responded appropriately with scripture. I am not silencing the opposition (sorry you see it that way) I have given you well thought out replies and answers to ur questions and comments.
TULIP, Beloved, God has been pleased by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe (1 Cor. 1:21). Salvation is by believing, and if we tell the lost man that he cannot believe, we shut the gates of Heaven against him and find ourselves in the hideous company of him who "hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ Who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Cor. 4:4)
TULIP, In Rev. 22:17 the Word of God declares "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Here God makes a real offer of the water of life to "WHOSOEVER WILL."
Tulip, concerning the statement that man does not have a free will by which he is able to come to Christ, please note what Jesus said in John 7:17: "if any man will do His will he shall know of the doctrine." Here He said that a man may will to do God's will. Again in John 5:40 Jesus rebuked the Jews when He said "ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." It was not that they could not come, but that they would not come.
Tulip the Calvinist would twist it to read, "when thou art saved by the Lord Jesus Christ thou shalt believe." What utter disregard for the plain teaching of the Word of God.
Tulpi, It is very clear that believing comes first and new birth follows. The verses I have cited from the Gospel of John by no means exhausts the Scripture which prove life through believing. If you will take Strong's Concordance and study the words "believe, believed, and believeth" you will find much more. A notable example is Acts 16:31 where Paul said, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
Tulip concerning the statement that man cannot believe the Gospel, and that man cannot believe until his is born again, let the following Scripture be studied- John 1:12, 3:15, 16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 7:39, 12:36, and 20:31. These Scriptures all show that spiritual life follows upon the sinner's believing in Jesus Christ. The Apostle John gave as his reason for writing his gospel, "that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing ye might have life through His name"
Tulip, God does not mock men by asking them to do what they cannot do. In Acts 11:18 we are told that God hath granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. Notice that the repentance comes first and it results in life.
Yilip, concerning the statement that man cannot repent we find the Word of God stating the exact opposite. In Acts 17:30 we find that God commands all men everywhere to repent, and that having so commanded, He expects they can and will. In 2 Peter 3:9 we find that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. If they should come, then they can come.
TULIPGospel, if God can "regenerate" man without his cooperation and or faith then why was the cross necessary? Old Testament saints were "credited" with righteousness today a believer is made righteous a massive difference and one that I don not think you understand. Abraham was credited with righteousness not because he "hated sin" but because he believed God. Why do you think Paul used him as an example? Abraham is called the father of faith. Whats the lesson here?
TULIP, as of yet you have not refuted a thing, you have proposed theories that "maybe that was God working etc." yet not any scriptural evidence to prove it. U claim that man must be regenerated before he can believe but Paul who you claim is a Calvinist said the exact opposite U claim a sinner does not seek God but when I show you from Gods word examples of sinners seeking God you back peddle & come up with theories. You claim people don't get saved 2 avoid hell but the bible says the opposite
TULIPGospel, I am not against Calvin I am against the false and deceiving gospel he promoted. History is undeniable he had people killed and imprisoned for disagreeing with him deny that all you like but it is still a fact.
Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John the Apostle.
because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice
Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble
TULIPGospel, this isn't about winning or losing, I am sorry you see it as some sort of contest. This is about truth and reaching a lost and dying world with the gospel. I have no need to be right, God loved me when I was wrong aka a sinner and he isn't going to stop if I am wrong now. People that need to be right are for the most part insecure and usually revert to insults when they are unable to defend their position. Calvin did the same, goes back to a lack of an understanding of God's love.
TULIPGospel, I provided evidence and a sound argument from history as well as scripture that the believe in Calvinism was not an early church believe and the apostles did not teach it to those they trained to carry the gospel forward. It was a theology that came many years later. Ur defense has been weak and unsubstantiated by scripture. I haven't ignored the truth at all I have posted it numerous times you are the one who cannot answer the questions or you make statements not found in the word.
TULIPGospel, The Philippian jailer once asked, "What must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30). If Paul had been a Calvinist he might have said, "You can do nothing to be saved, absolutely nothing. You are dead in sin and a dead man can do nothing. If God doesn't regenerate you, then you are doomed." How different was the answer Paul gave: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31). Paul knew he could "believe".
TULIPGospel, the Bible does not teach that "regeneration comes before faith."
Romans 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Notice salvation comes after faith and confession, not before. One is not made righteous or saved before they confess Christ.
TULIPGospel, I dare say you or other Calvinist on this channel if you heard MacArthur, Piper or Washer had people killed or locked up for disagreeing with them, you wouldn't hail them as great Christians leaders and men of God to follow. Of course not but you do for John Calvin, why does he get a pass on bad behavior? Why are you unable to see that this man was controlled by something demonic? If Piper and Washer did the same I am sure you distance yourself from them yet Calvin gets a pass.
TULIPGospel, I wasn't bashing "Calvin" I was pointing out how he does not qualify according to what Paul wrote about the office of a Bishop how one should act and live. I did not post one fact about Calvin that cannot be verified. He was a man that was obviously absent of any understanding of Gods love. He rejected what Jesus taught about loving ur enemies, he had his killed and imprisoned. Yet the same spirit that led this man also inspired him to come up with a theology called Calvinism today.
TULIPGospel, while those of the Reformed persuasion are right to reject the Latin heresies of Rome, they have been lax to recognize the Greek heresies introduced before the Latin era, which are equally contrary to the truth of the Christian Faith "once for all delivered to the saints" by the Apostles of Jesus Christ. They seem to hold a higher opinion of philosophers, like Augustine, than of the Apostles themselves, and those to whom the Apostles entrusted the Apostolic tradition.
TULIPGospel, there seems to have been no exceptions among early Christian writers to the orthodox teaching that man has been granted by God a free will to choose his destiny, and that salvation is available to all. The opposing view, that man is controlled by fate, could only be found in the Greek philosophical schools, Gnosticism, and Eastern mysticism during the first 300 years of Christianity.
TulipGospel, the writings of the orthodox Church, for the first three centuries, are in stark contrast to the ideas of Augustine and Calvin. Man is fully responsible for his choice to respond to or reject the Gospel. This was considered to be the Apostolic doctrine passed down through the local church elders ordained by the Apostles, and their successors.
TulipGospel, prior to the writings of Augustine, the Church universally held that mankind had a totally free will. Each man was responsible before God to accept the Gospel. His ultimate destiny, while fully dependent on God's grace and power, was also dependent on his free choice to submit to or reject God's grace and power. In the three centuries from the Apostles to Augustine the early Church held to NONE of the five points of Calvinism, not one.
TULIPGospel, I was raised a Calvinist I understand the doctrine very well. The 5 points came from Calvin's teaching while he did not formulate them in that way they most definitely came from his theology. Now I know you will try and claim Augustine as a source and I will admit that Calvin was influenced by him but most of the early church fathers and those taught by the apostles preached very strongly Free-will which is not part of TULIP and goes against TULIP.
TULIPGospel, you say "hating sin is the reason one gets saved" A sinner cannot hate sin until after he is born again and then as a new creation in Christ he is no longer a slave to sin. Besides the Bible says is anything not done in faith, so how can a sinner who is not in faith hate sin? Salvation is not conditional on "hating sin" if is by faith and grace. Ones maturity in grace teaches him to hate sin but as a sinner he could never hate it because it is his very nature.
TULIPGospel, Philippian Jailer, when he asked Paul and Silas, "What must I do to be saved? Paul replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household. No mention of hating sin why would the apostle Paul lie or preach a false gospel to the jailer. Looks to me like the Jailer was fearful over the earth quake etc. and wanted to get saved but I dont hear Paul telling him he cant because he is being Selfish.
TulipGospel, Is salvation through believing or behaving? The lost are born again by believing in who Jesus is and what He did to provide salvation. This is a message that conditions eternal salvation on the lost man making a commitment to forsake (stop) sinning, start obeying and keep obeying over a life time. That is WORKS salvation it is a corruption of the simplicity that is in Christ, (2 Cor. 11:3).
Most Reformed sites/blogs will kick you off if you fail to agree with them or make the mistake of showing from scripture they are wrong. What are they afraid of?
Truth glorifies Him who is truth, the Son of God. You are showing that Calvinism/Reformed theology is simply not a Biblical system even though many true believers are trapped in it.
And as always, I am amazed at how little they actualy mention the GOSPEL which is God's call.
Lets see Jesus gives Peter a boat load of fish and says come and follow me. The prodigal son is forgiven and restored, the women caught in adultery told to go and sin no more escapes a death sentence. All examples the bible tells us about why and how people come and follow Christ. Peter's was selfish and he became an Apostle, Jesus taught the Pharisee's about the prodigal son explaining God's love to them and the prodigal was selfish as well. The women didn't die for her sin all were selfish!
According to you these "reprobates" sought God for what he could do for them and according to ur doctrine should not have found God but did and not only found God some left sin and served him. It appears you don't place a lot of stock in God's goodness in bringing people to repentance.
Again all theses were of the elect and never reprobates, you have just shown how God bring His elect to Himself.If the Bible says they came to Christ for salvation that means they are of the elect. Simple as that.
TULIPGospel, I have shown you over and over again sinners who saw or experienced the goodness of God responded and as the Bible teaches they repented aka change of mind". To say that only the elect were saved when God clearly says it is his desire that all men repent is ludicrous. In Rom 8 all those in Christ are predestined to be in his image, no mention of who will or wont be saved just what the outcome is when one is saved.
Wow, there are different kinds of seeking you say, one for selfish means is what the "reprobate" does and seeking to escape hell and eternal punishment isn't selfish according to you
A leper came back who was healed to say thank you and the Jesus made him "whole" God being good to us is similar, it is to eventually allow God to make us whole but that won't happen till they see and understand his goodness which Rom 2 says brings one to repentance. Paul say in Titus 3 it brought him to repentance
The Bible says that Satan comes to seek and destroy. That would be people but most of all the truth of God's grace and His wonderful love.
There will always be debates such as this and the best way to know what God's truth is, is to study God's word.
Rightly dividing the word of truth...paul gave this exhoration to Timothy, and I believe all of us can take this scripture to heart and do what has been asked.
I could weep over the way Calvinism depicts the God of truth, love and mercy! They say since all are sinners, it is perfectly fair that God would pick some to be saved and some to be lost. They claim that His holiness protects Him from a charge of unfairness in this method. The term Noblesse oblige means that one who has the means to help another and does not is in the wrong. God gave His Son for the sins of the world. No sinner can ever blame God for their lost condition. John 3:16
Amen my friend, hold strong, I am praying for you and others who are doing this battle, AND for eyes to be open to the truth and the real sovereignty of God.
Thanks Linda, I have always wondered if a preacher today such as Piper, Washer or McArthur did the things John Calvin did would these same people still listen to them? Surely they have to see and understand that to kill ur enemies or have them thrown in prison goes against what Christ taught us as believers to do. We are to love our enemies not kill them but Calvins actions and lifestyle showed a rejection of what Jesus taught, a very serious flaw in his belief system One they ignore completely
Well put Linda, Calvin was called the Pope of Geneva. From 1541 to 1546, John Calvin caused 58 people to be executed and seventy six were exiled. His victims ranged in age from 16 to 80. The most common capital offense was the opposition to infant baptism. Today, baptism only for accountable believers, is a Baptist distinctive. Others were killed for advocating local church autonomy; opposing the tie-in of church and state: and preaching that Christ died for all sinners (unlimited atonement).
No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: John 6:44
No one can be drawn to Christ apart from the Scriptural instruction. Every one that has heard from the Father, and has learned, comes to me. John 6:45 b
Drawing can be negative or positive.We see false teachers also drawing! Act 20:30: and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
I gave examples of "sinners" seeking or coming to God, you cannot harmonize that with a false doctrine that claims they cannot.
The bible teaches for people to "seek the Lord while you can" this was written to people you believe cannot seek God, yet God says they must be able to or he wouldn't have told them to seek him. Again ur doctrine makes God a liar, you believe he tells people to do something they are unable to do. If people are unable to seek God why did he tell them to SEEK him?
Why would he if God must call him and doesn't? So whose fault is it that he is lost? It must be God's fault! And yet you teach God will hold him responsible for not answering a call he is unable to hear!
And then (gag) you teach this shows how Holy God is and (gag) magnifies His grace! Your type of "grace" is truly "amazing"!
If God could save everyone by His power and didn't, He would be guilty of going against His own character.
1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
These r consistent with an honest reading of Joh 3:16. But the Calvinist loves his tradition
The Gospel call is general and goes to all men, the EFFECTUAL call goes to God's elect chosen before the foundation of the world. God is Sovereign AND man is responsible, if we cannot reconcile the two in our finite minds we must be content to believe them and know that God is right and holds the reigns of the world in his mighty hand.
Jesus said, " A kingdom divided against itself will fall."
Your so-called "reconciliation" of opposing truth is proof that you MUST disregard clear scriptures to maintain your awful doctrine.
This goes beyond "twisting" scripture to worse; removing it from consideration in seeking God's truth.
God does not oppose Himself. He is not giving two calls but one call to all. You are using a term made up from the fevered imagination of the radical Calvinist: the "effectual" call.
NCEVANGELIST, says "The Gospel call is general and goes to all men, the EFFECTUAL call goes to God's elect chosen before the foundation of the world."
The 'EFFECTUAL" call is not in the Bible it is part of Calvinistic theology and is added.
The early church fathers preached "free-will" and warned the early church against this type of preaching and teaching which came almost 500 years later.
The bible says God is not a liar so we know that is not GOOD. The bible makes it very clear what is good and what is not and it makes it very clear what the devil does and what God does. Sadly Calvinist seem to accuse or blame God what the bible says is the work of the devil. This Calvinistic doctrine is called "sovereign grace" while I believe God is sovereign I do not believe in the Calvinistic unbiblical view of "sovereign grace" it makes God out to be a liar and he cannot lie!
Jesus exposed the true intent of these people's hearts by preaching a strong message of commitment. Those who were self-centered were offended and left (Jn. 6:66) while those who were willing to lay down their lives so that they could experience God's abundant life (Lk. 9:24; Jn. 10:10) remained (Jn. 6:68). Commitment to God Himself (not what He can produce) is what always separates the true worshippers of God (Jn. 4:23) from the false.
Try keeping this in context with the rest of scripture.
"Why does God do this" because he is a good God. God would do it if no one glorified him at all, it is who he is.
Even if all the lepers refused to give thanks Jesus would have still healed lepers who came and asked, why because that is who he is. God being good brings people to repentance that is bible Rom 2.
Gods goodness brings repentance and he is good to all because he desires all men to repent.
One day Jesus healed a group of lepers and only one came back to give thanks! Again their goes ur theory that sinners "take from God without glorifying Him" that leper did. The demon possessed man even came to Jesus for help. How can a sinner who is demon possessed still have the ability to come to God for help? According to Calvinism that should or would never happen. Yet we see all trhough the bible people who were not saved come to God in faith.
Yes and what they did as "sinners" is seek God something you claim a sinner cannot or will not do. You have to believe that God was doing something behind the scenes that he was keeping secret to support a biblicaly flawed doctrine such as Calvinism. Each time you are shown scripture that disproves TULIP you claim "well we don't know blah, blah!"
The Bible tells us clearly what they did and they were seeking God and God heard them all the while they were sinners.
The most of the theologists where need to interpret the Bible allegorically interpret the Bible literally, and where need to interpret the Bible literally interpret the Bible allegorically.
Besides, God can write Bible, and God can erase Bible.
You need to read your bible a little closer, notice Cornelius in the book of Acts he was not saved but wanted to know God ur theory that is based on Calvinism does not line up at all with what the bible teaches. Look at all the sinners that hung around Jesus and followed him into a desert to listen to what he said forgetting food and water. Apparently the "unsaved" do care as I have just shown by scripture. You have a belief system that does not line up with biblical facts.
If there are Paradise and hell, how the souls in Paradise can be happy, while some other souls suffer in hell ?
Here, I got few answers to that question. The authors of that answers or have not heart, or didn't experience suffering. All that answers belong to Inconceivable.
Sorry like the sun and the rain the mercy of God falls on the just and unjust, if it didn't then God would be a respecter of persons.
Jesus taught in Luke 6 that a sinner loves only those that love them! This is how the Calvinist view Gods' love that God only loves those that love God and God makes them love him. Sorry but God's love is far greater, agape love loves those who do not love God Jesus revealed this in his life. 1 John 4:19 tells us why we love God because he first loved us.
Yes and God's kindness leads to repentance. Rom 2. Paul said the kindness of God reveals salvation Titus 3 try connecting the dots. To say that God's kindness is just physical is to ignore a vast amount of scripture, ask yourself why is God kind? There is a reason Jesus taught on the nature of his father something most Calvinist miss, John Calvin surly did Jesus said love ur enemies and Calving killed and imprisoned his. I would say Calvin didn't believe what Jesus taught.
The THINGS of the Lord are not the Gospel message which anyone can understand and choose to believe. The THINGS of the Lord are deeper teachings which no one can understand unless they believe the Gospel first. IOW, you cant do trigonometry if you cant add 2+2! Jesus said the same thing about this matter in John 3:12: If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? All R invited, all can be saved.
Here's a favorite Calvinist verse which taken from context to support their twisted theology:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
AHA! say they; U C how a sinner cannot understand the Gospel unless God open their heart! But the first part of this chapter has Paul telling that his first message was the Gospel. Then "the THINGS of the Lord" ...
I'm sorry, that's ridiculous. Perhaps you should read 1 Corinthians 2 and see that two different levels of teaching are demonstrated and identified by Paul.
The writer of Hebrews also teaches Christians to not stay forever in the ABC's of Christianity but to move on into deeper knowledge.
Its the same concept when I evangelize on the street, or share my faith with a friend. I don't know who God will save, nobody does but God, so we preach the gospel to all people, and His sheep will hear His voice and respond with a repentant faith. The gospel is a command to all people, not a plea.
barnabastexas 11 months ago
@barnabastexas Even you had to say yes to put your faith in Christ. it wasn't till later, till you learned that you were zapped with salvation. Here is the delima for you. if you witness to a person and they reject the Gospel, this means that they made a choice, which Calvinist say that men don't have a free will to choose.
You can't have it both ways. If a man rejects the gospel he rejected it from free will.
carpentersdaughter2 11 months ago
@carpentersdaughter2 From a Reformed perspective, I would say the person who walks away from the gospel message has not made a choice, but they are simply doing what we all do in our natural (unsaved) condition...rebel and continue in sin. That's all we CAN do prior to salvation (thus no freedom of choice) because we lack faith. Adam made a choice in the garden because he was already in fellowship with God. You and I have freewill now that we're saved, but it's for obedience not salvation.
barnabastexas 11 months ago
@barnabastexas Try as hard as you want but to say that those who reject Christ, ARE making a decision, making a choice....to reject something takes action on our part...this means we think about it before we say no, and no is an action which is a choice. You can't see it because you have been engrained to think it.
carpentersdaughter2 11 months ago
@carpentersdaughter2 Faith and Repentance are both gifts from God, they are not already in us as we decide on our "choice". We know this from the following scriptures: John 3:27, 6:63-65; Phi 1:29; 2Pet 1:1; Act 16:14; Act 18:27; Eph 2:8-10 (Faith) and Act 5:3; Act 11:18; 2Tim 2:25-26; 1Cor 4:7 (Repentance). We know from Psalm 14 and 53 that no one is righteous and no one seeks after God. No one. Seeks. After God. Until He steps in, grants a repentant faith and saves someone for His glory.
barnabastexas 11 months ago
@barnabastexas I have no qurral with what you just said. here's the problem though. you and other Calvinist don't give the Holy Spirit His Due in being able to convict a wretched man of his sins. You weaken the job of the HOly Spirit by this teaching.
Yes a man can't come to God on His own, He has to be Called by God, but that's where we differ. a man can reject the gospel. John Calvin's god is sadistic, immoral, and loves to make people suffer. that sorry being is send to hell by his creator
carpentersdaughter2 11 months ago
@carpentersdaughter2 Actually, the number one argument Calvinists have Arminians like yourself is that you are the one who doesn't give all glory to God. We are monergists, meaning the entire act of salvation is due to the work of the Holy Spirit as God is granting a repentant faith to someone. Your point of view says that God would like to save someone, but His hands are tied due to a man's unbelief. God is limited in power and reduced to a beggar in your view. Not Biblical.
barnabastexas 11 months ago
@carpentersdaughter2 Take Romans 9:16-18 "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."
The plain reading of scripture is that God is sovereign and He decides who to display mercy to, and who to display wrath. Not man.
barnabastexas 11 months ago
@carpentersdaughter2 Rom 9:22-24 "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
barnabastexas 11 months ago
@carpentersdaughter2 So clearly God is indeed making vessels of wrath (the lost) and vessels of mercy (the saved). Both of these glorify God in that His judgment is shown and His love is shown. The part you miss is that God is not GOING to condemn men, they are already condemned because we are all born into sin. It's not that God is sitting in heaven and creating more people just so they can burn, because before time began (as scripture says) it was determined.
barnabastexas 11 months ago
@carpentersdaughter2 This will be my last post sister. I wish you much Grace and Love in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. To Him, and Him alone, be glory and honor forever and ever.
barnabastexas 11 months ago
@carpentersdaughter2 Calvinism is not a label that Calvinists want or asked for, but it is useful for discussion between Calvinism and Arminianism. We don't follow Calvin, we follow scripture. You may have heard of Martin Luther, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon? Luther of course began the Reformation which is why we have Protestant churches for worship. All of these men were "Calvinists" too.
barnabastexas 11 months ago
@barnabastexas You know when I was a Mormon we believed very strongly that what we believed were the scriptures. You see all people in cults think that they are reading scripture, and not the teachings of their leader. The coralation between cults and Calvinims is extemely similar. both need a leader, both need to say that scripture doesn't really say that. and that we have the truth while no one else has...so you see, here you hae Calvin as the leader.....
con't.
carpentersdaughter2 11 months ago
con't. 2
...and that some scriptures really don't mean everyone but only the chosen, then Calvinist believe that only they have the truth....so while you may be in denial of this, the very fact is, Calvinism is just another cult with a leader who twisted scripture and beleive only he has the scriptures right.
I was told I believed in Joseph Smith and I would say to them, no, he was just a man...but the truth was, Ole Joseph Smith was glorified beyond belief. all Mormons think like this.
carpentersdaughter2 11 months ago
You asked me earlier to stop responding, and then you ask me a question, so I'm confused. I don't want to disrespect your wishes on your site so I won't answer any more questions unless you express that you want me to.
As to 1 Timothy 2, the context is that this is the first century church and it was an EXTREMELY radical idea for Jews to consider that salvation was for Gentiles as well as the Jew. Paul is saying that they should preach the gospel to the Gentiles...all man kind.
barnabastexas 11 months ago
@barnabastexas I'm sorry about that. Right now I am talking to you and two other Calvinist, Then I have a Universalist who says all men are saved, then I have a Mormon who's given me a hard time, then there's a person from the Sacred Name Movement, so I have a lot on my plate right now. Each of these foks are out to prove me wrong, rather then have a decent dialgoue.
So forgive me if I seem weary right now.
carpentersdaughter2 11 months ago
@carpentersdaughter2 Sister, let me assure you that I do not want to be a burden to you. Theological discussions are beneficial for sharpening, but it should never make us weary or be a point of division between us (Rom 16:17). The gospel message is to repent, and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. We agree on this and so we are family. I commend you for contending for the faith with unbelievers...Universalists, Mormons, and whatever the Sacred Name Movement is (new to me). Strength in Jesus
barnabastexas 11 months ago
@barnabastexas I understand that, and no you are not a burden. We are in the Lord, and that's what's important. Some think that Calvinist aren't saved, but that's nonsense. I just think that there is a big misunderstand of God and how He works...and I sure you will feel the same way..:)
The SNM is a legalestic movement that says if you do not say Jesus's Name in Hebrew, you are not saved. Plus they have a works based gospel. It's growing big on YT.
carpentersdaughter2 11 months ago
When was your name written into the Lamb's book of life? Revelation 13:8 has the answer. It was not written there when you walked forward at church, or when you said "the prayer". Jesus is not a common beggar on the street, just hoping that someone will choose Him. He came to earth to save His bride, the church, which was chosen before time began. That's what scripture says
barnabastexas 11 months ago
@barnabastexas I don't disagree with those scriptures, but I do disagree with Calvins interperation of them.
John 3:16 For God so love the WORLD...now look up world in the Greek here and you will see that in this context that is says ALL, EVERYONE....God loves the World so much that HE gave His everlasting son..
This means everyone, not just the chosen. He died for everyone but not everyone will accept this gift.
Jesus is not a beggar so don't say we believe that.
carpentersdaughter2 11 months ago
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barnabastexas 11 months ago
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barnabastexas 11 months ago
Did Israel choose God? Or did God choose Israel and set them apart as His people? Does God change? Have you read Romans 8 and 9? Not just short verses here and there, but reading the whole chapter, the whole book to understand the context. God said He loved Jacob, but hated Esau (Romans 9:13), not because of anything they did, but because it was His will.
barnabastexas 11 months ago
@barnabastexas God choose Israel so the Messiah will have a line of people to come through. Also so we will know that God is patient. Now have you done a study on the word Hate in Hebrew? Well, I have, and the word hate doesn't have the same meaning as our hate, in English.
Jesus commanded us to love, not hate, and yet, you put the English meaning of hate into that scripture. This makes God out a hypocrite, do as I say and not as I do...is that how God operates?
continued
carpentersdaughter2 11 months ago
con't 2
The Hebrew maning of hate is "To Love Less" Not to despise, detest, loath as Calvinist would teach us..No, the word for hate is to love less, which is a whole different slant on things. Otherwise we have a bible where God contridicts Himself. Jesus said if we hate someone it's like murdering that person. That's how strong the word is, so don't tell me about Jacob and Esau, because God did not hate Esau.
carpentersdaughter2 11 months ago
@carpentersdaughter2 Actually, you're incorrect. The Hebrew word used in the original passage from Malachi is Sane'. Sane' is word number 8130 in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. Sane' means, "to hate, be an enemy, to be unloved, to be hated, to be shunned, to be an adversary, be a foe"...etc. It obviously means "to be hated" as we understand it in English.
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barnabastexas 11 months ago
@barnabastexas Again, you are wrong, because the word Sane, which actually means to depart from, move away from, Not hate as in English hate as I said.
Now the Hebrew word for Hate as in hating someone is this There are many other Hebrew words that would correspond better to our modern understanding of hate: bazah (despise), ma'as (to loathe), to'evah (abominable). So ask yourself, "Do I really hate my little brother?"
you need to dig in more!!
carpentersdaughter2 11 months ago
@carpentersdaughter2 Do you own a Bible concordance? I'm giving you the Hebrew straight off the page, black ink on white paper. Sane' means hate as you understand the word hate in English....that's why the English translators used the word hate...THEY COULD HAVE USED LOVED LESS, right? Look up the Hebrew.
barnabastexas 11 months ago
@barnabastexas Here's what you are doing wrong. The concordance has flaws in that when you are looking at the context of a word. It will give you a meaning when there could be several meanings to a word. I have a strongs concordance but I don't rely on it because it has flaws, so I stay away from anything that has flaws such as a strongs concordance. I want to know the meaning of that word in the context of what is written.
carpentersdaughter2 11 months ago
@carpentersdaughter2 Well then you've simply made up your mind to reject anything that doesn't fit with your own ideas, your own version of God. The evidence is here and anyone else reading this can seek the truth for themselves and look up the Hebrew and see that I am right.....and you are the one twisting things to fit what you want it to say. Peace to you.
barnabastexas 11 months ago
@barnabastexas The same words can be described to you as well. I do not follow the teachings of a man who murdered people who disagreed with his teachings. The man had as apostate as his spiritual leader, and you guys want me to swollow the same poison you''ve swollowed.
You are right, I will not budge from what the bible teaches.Why won't I budge? Because I did an extensive study with a Calvinist friend, and everytime we came to a verse where the words, NONE, or Whosoever, Or World
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carpentersdaughter2 11 months ago
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she would tell me, oh that word doesn't mean everyone, it means the chosen...this happened everytime a word came up that said World, Whosoever, Any....that all these words meant the chosen..
So God loved the chosen that he gave his only begotton son???? NONSENSE, this is how cults get people by telling them that word in the bible doesn't mean what they say...Calvinist have taken words and twisted them to mean something different. This is why I won't swollow that poison.
carpentersdaughter2 11 months ago
@barnabastexas Also, here's the problem with that Calvinistic teaching. It makes God contridict Himself. do you honestly think that Jesus is going to tell us not to hate, when he hates? There is no biblical logic to this. God doesn't say, do as I say, not as I do to us...He is consistent in His Nature and He is consistent with us. He is not going to tell us to do something different, especially since Jesus said to be like Him.
so is Jesus telling us to hate people or not to hate..which is it?
carpentersdaughter2 11 months ago
@carpentersdaughter2 God hasn't told us to hate anyone. Scripture says He hated Esau, not me. You and I are no better than Esau in that we are born enemies of God. It is by God's mercy that he chooses to save anyone, but He does the choosing. It is all because of Him, and you and I bring nothing to the equation.
barnabastexas 11 months ago
@barnabastexas God did not hate Esau as the Calvinist teach. God loved Jacob more and that's what that means....period!!!!
I know we can't bring anything to salvation, but you have been engrained to believe that choosing or making a decision isn't biblical. The Bible is clear that we are to make a choice..
Choose you this day whom you will serve....so I am sure that calvinist will say, that means something different.
You just can't see the twisting they do. Very sad
carpentersdaughter2 11 months ago
@carpentersdaughter2 Who was Joshua speaking to when he said "Choose this day whom you will serve"? (Joshua 24) He was speaking to Israel, God's people. He was NOT speaking to the lost world. It would be no different than if you stood up in your church and said to other Christians, "choose this day whom you will serve". It's about God's people walking in obedience. It has nothing to do with salvation. You have to read scripture in context.
barnabastexas 11 months ago
@barnabastexas I will concede that you are correct in your statement. God was speaking to Israel on this.
How will you twist this scripture?
1 Timothy 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires ALL MEN to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
carpentersdaughter2 11 months ago
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barnabastexas 11 months ago
@carpentersdaughter2 Which is why Bible scholars and translators across the centuries have translated it as "hated" when they could have said "loved less", but chose not to. Unless you believe you're actually more intelligent and literate in Hebrew than the Bible translators?
Read Jesus' High Priestly Prayer in John 17 where Jesus says, "I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
barnabastexas 11 months ago
@barnabastexas I will keep saying it, the word Sane in Hebrew means to move away, to depart. it does NOT mean to loave or dispise..try checking this out again.
Yes, Jesus says here that He is not praying for the world....which the Calvinst say that " world" means chosen, Here is a perfect example of how the word World has been twisted by Calvinist.
Yes, Jesus is praying for His own here, not the world..Now if "World" means chosen to Calvinist, then why would Jesus say, not the world?
carpentersdaughter2 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"You are absolutely, totally helpless to save yourself." "You must make a wise decision in order to be saved."
OH the hypocrisy of false expressions!
thebiglie1 1 year ago
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thebiglie1 1 year ago
Assuming You are right and all human beings are born with this ability to choose God or reject God, What about the billions who have lived and died having never heard the name of Jeseus or the Gospel?It seems to me that this power to choose God Or reject God would be of no use to them.I find many holes in this theology.
thebiglie1 1 year ago
@thebiglie1 Paul teaches that God's Laws are in every mans heart. For those who never hear the gospel or the name of Jesus will never be judged on that, but will be judged by their works on how they obeyed what God put in their hearts. Just read the Great White Throne Judgement...the books are opened, and every man is judged according to how he lived by God's Law.
Worry more about those who have heard and don't want anything to do with Christ.
carpentersdaughter2 1 year ago
Great video!
Indigohue 1 year ago
I posted a comment and it has not appeared but I hope it does. Linda I tried to save this to my favorites 2 times and it fails to show up in my list. Must be a glitch of some kind. I wanted to feature on my channel for a while. Sorry I am unable to do that my friend. In Christ - John
bibledoctrine 2 years ago
Linda thank you for presenting the truth of the scriptures to show that man is a free will agent and is responsible for either accepting or rejecting the gospel of salvation. You laid it out so clear that it is so simple that it is difficult to understand how anyone can see it any other way. It is the same with the eternal security of the believer. There are those that teach that one can lose their salvation if they turn away or live in sin. YBIC - John
bibledoctrine 2 years ago
I'll take universalism, thank you. The verse in Joshua has nothing to do with salvation. Anyway, if salvation is a choice, then very few get that choice. Over 100 billion humans have already lived and died and very few had even heard of Jesus or salvation. Where's their choice? Muslims only know what the Quoran says about Jesus - no exactly the Christian Jesus. You can only make a choice if you know the alternatives.
averagebear1 2 years ago
The scripture in Joshua is to show that we have a choice to believe.
As for those who never heard the gospel or of Jesus, then they will be judged according to the law that God has put on everymans heart. This will be done at the Great White Throne Judgement.
carpentersdaughter2 2 years ago
A Historical Introduction to Calvinism (Pelagius, Augustine, Calvin, Servetus) This is an excellent teaching on how Calvinism came to be. If most Calvinist knew these facts they would reject Calvinism.
watch?v=iNBRXiuLMsE
eIe12957 2 years ago
According to Jesus John Calvin did not know him: They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God. And they will do these things because THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN THE FATHER, NOR ME.
John Calvin believed in killing those who disagreed with his doctrine. Calvin believed he was doing Gods service by killing so-called heretics. Jesus said those that do this do not KNOW my FATHER or ME!
eIe12957 2 years ago
The offers of salvation to the unsaved include direct appeals to the reasoning powers of unsaved men, their inherent ability to choose, and their ability to seek after God. For example:
Isaiah 1 :18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isaiah 45 :22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
eIe12957 2 years ago
Isaiah 55 :6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Revelation 22 :17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
eIe12957 2 years ago
These kinds of general offers to all the unsaved strongly imply that all who choose to come can be saved. If not, the offers cannot be genuine and sincere. In today's climate, if Calvinism is true, God could be sued for false advertising.
eIe12957 2 years ago
Mankind is not physically dead. Nor, is his mental capacity to reason dead. Paul used "death" as a metaphor for a helpless condition. The posted verses, and many others, assume that man has the capacity to respond to God by his own choice, to exercise his own free will, at least when God is calling Him to repentance.
eIe12957 2 years ago
The effect of that decision is also clearly stated in the posted verses. God will save him. Therefore, it is obvious that being "dead in sins" does NOT imply the inability to accept God's offer of grace and mercy when it is presented in truth and being drawn by the Spirit. It merely implies that one cannot save himself. And that his being rescued from this condition depends entirely on God's power to save.
eIe12957 2 years ago
Wow, looks like my stalkers have showed up to bury my comments with a thumbs down. How sad that someone is so afraid to have a civil and adult debate they have to revert to silly and childish tactics to try and silence an opposing view. I guess John Calvin spirit is alive and well among his followers.
eIe12957 2 years ago
Great Video :) AMEN!
ishellreal 2 years ago
We stand together on this.
God bless
carpentersdaughter2 2 years ago
Tulip, the bible says speak the truth in love, when it isn't in love it is still truth it just won't be received. It also says that it is the spirit that gives life and the letter of the law that killeth. The sword of the spirit is the word of God it is used to set the captives free not to threaten those of the faith. Again Calvin showed a serious lack of understanding when it came to God's love he killed his enemies and sadly those who follow his theology do the same with God's word.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, I have asked you this question a few times and you have not answered. If God is able to regenerate people before salvation then why was the cross necessary? Explain to me how a Holy God can live in an unclean vessel that has not been washed in the blood of Christ etc.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, I have shown with ample evidence from scripture from both the old and new testaments that People can have faith before regeneration and that faith is how one comes or enters into a covenant with God. God said Abraham believed and I showed you he did before being put to sleep as you claimed which you later denied saying.
You provided no proof at all, just speculation and you took scripture out of context as you did with Abraham.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIPS, besides David was a man after God's own heart yet he forgot to guard his heart and became a murderer and an adulterer. So one can have faith in God and still wind up doing what is wrong if they do not guard their heart.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, Jesus doesn't see it that way from John 8
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not BELIEVE that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
Jesus empathized that it was up to them to believe, he did not tell them you should pray that God will choose you or regenerate you so you can believe.
Context is so important in correctly dividing Gods word I have found.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, I get a kick out of how you can look at scriptures and see that God does not want certain people and desires to reject them etc. but when you study the life of Christ you see evil and wicked people following Christ into a desert to listen to every word he had to say. You see prostitutes washing his feet, tax collectors and sinners eating with him etc. yet the gospel you preach does not have this effect on sinners it actually repels people from God, something I don;t think you considered.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Until you understand Gods mercy you will not truly know God because his heart is full of mercy and his word says his mercy is over ALL his works. Psalms 145:9 The LORD is good to ALLl: and his tender mercies are over ALL his works.
Are there some people on earth that God did not create?
Jesus came to call sinners since all have sinned he is calling everyone.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, if you are going to change the subject and ignore the fact that you took Gods word out of context & start quoting scriptures as some sort of condemnation on me b/c I don't belief ur theology then have at it but know this I believe what Paul wrote in Rom 8:1. If U want to use Gods word to threaten & badger people to accept ur views it only shows you don't understand it or how to use the sword of the Lord correctly. I am not ur enemy I am ur brother and if I were you still have to love me.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, I hear the word of God very clearly it is ur interpretation of it that does not agree with Gods word. As I have shown numerous times here today.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, I haven't rejected Gods promises at all so I don't know why you are using the ALL here.
Jesus is the word I think we can agree on that and Paul says people cannot believe unless someone preaches the gospel. Paul also says that FAITH comes from preaching the gospel. So when someone hears the gospel they have faith available to get saved if they believe. Pretty simple it isn't a spiritual lottery system some believe and some don't if they believe they are drawn to the father.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, I agree Paul is talking to those who are saved I pointed out the fact you left out the first few words of the text which shows we as believers still have a responsibility to believe God and to stay focused on Christ. That was my point.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, you were wrong, you said that Abraham could not believe until after a covenant was made. God says he believed in vs 6 the covenant was made in vs 12. EOS.
People enter into covenants based on faith they do not get faith from entering into a covenant it comes before as it did with Abraham and as it does with all those today who come to Christ in faith they get to share in a New covenant ratified by Christ and God the father so this covenant will not fail.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, did not Abraham here Gods word? So if he heard God speak and Paul says FAITH comes from hearing God's word then it is easy to see where the FAITH came from. It came from God's word which cannot be separated from God himself. So Abraham had FAITH in GOD and Paul says this in Rom 4, Abraham persuaded himself that what God said was true.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, God made plenty of promises to people that they choose not to believe,
So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.Hebrews 3:19
So God gave a promise and they did not believe but according to ur logic if God gives a promise that is a covenant and they have to believe. Sorry Tulip but that is not how it is explained in Gods word. God wanted them to believe they didn't and so goes election.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, you can see God's election in that but we were not discussing election we were discussing faith, you made the claim Abraham could only believe after he was put to sleep and God made a covenant. I pointed out God said he believed before the covenant so ur assertion was wrong. Now to twist this into another unrelated discussion isn't being fair to the topic at hand.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, I know what you said that is why I quoted you and I know you are trying to back peddle on ur comments that as I have shown were wrong about Abraham.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, I never said at all or one time that Abraham had faith in himself. I made it very clear his faith was in God and God alone. Please try and quote me in context.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, you missed the first part of HEb 12 you quoted...."Let us fix our eyes on Jesus" if we do that then the part you quoted makes sense. You also missed vs 15, See to it that NO ONE misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
If grace is "irresistible" as Calvinist claim why would the writer of Hebrews admonish those to not miss it? If it was irresistible the verse makes no sense at all because no one could miss it.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, God made promises to Abram, these promises do not constitute a covenant. Might I suggest you do a study on what a covenant is?
When I got married I entered into a covenant relationship with my wife. God covenants involve shedding of blood which we see later with Abraham in ch15 not before.
The relationship started in Ch12 not the covenant. I love Heb 11 the hall of fame of FAITH what is the object lesson there? That no matter our past, or failures if we choose to believe God etc....
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP here are ur exact words, @eIe12957 But Abraham BELIEVED b/c God made the covenant, not God made the covenant b/c Abraham believed. See the difference?
In vs 12 we see God making the covenant but in vs 6 we see before the covenant God credit him with righteousness because he BELIEVED. B/C he believed, God made a covenant. Now you go back and say you didn't say that when in fact YOU DID! I just posted the proof.
When we believe we enter into a new covenant. Belief comes first.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, the Bible says in ROM 10:17 that faith COMES by hearing the word, just because it comes does not mean you get faith. You have to believe the gospel which provides the faith to receive salvation. Like Abraham he believed FIRST and then a covenant was made.
FWIW, I do not believe you are stupid, I think you are ignorant but not stupid, ignorance is a choice. Paul wrote let the ignorant remain so. 1 Cor. 14:37
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, please don't change the subject, you were wrong about Abraham were you not? You said he was given faith or born again as a result of God putting him to sleep and making a covenant. We see that in Gen 15:12 but you ignore vs6 where God says Abraham believed God which was before he was asleep. Please if we are going to debate this topic at least admit you were wrong instead of changing the topic.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, faith comes from hearing the word of God Rom 10:17 you cannot separate the spirit of God from his word. Thus why the gospel needs to preach to everyone because it is in the message of the gospel that one finds faith for salvation. Paul said very clearly that people cannot believe without hearing the gospel. How you are able to separate faith from Gods; word is amazing to me.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, again you are pulling verses out of context, ....Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. vs6
The verse you quoted happens later in vs 12 so it is plan to see that Abraham was "credited" righteousness based on his believing not on a covenant as you have asserted.
Please notice how SELFISH Abraham was with God before the covenant, he wanted a child and possessions and also PLEASE notice how he addressed God he called him "O Sovereign LORD" before the covenant
eIe12957 2 years ago
Ur argument that Abraham had to be born again to have faith is false and it is easy to see that God's covenant with Abraham was a result of him believing God and he was credited righteousness before he was put to sleep and the covenant was made. Again context, context!
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, John 3 does not at all support regeneration before faith and in fact the NT teaches very clearly as I have already pointed out that faith comes first and then God's life. Jesus is explaining the need for man to be born again not that God does it against mans will, if that was the context, then why did Jesus say, YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN in vs 7? Jesus empathized mans responsibility to receiving by faith the gift of salvation and that experience is being born again. Context, Context!!!!
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, God made a covenant with Abraham which was a forerunner to the covenant he made with Christ on the cross for all of mankind. All Abraham had to do was BELIEVE and he was credited righteousness and in the same way all we have to do is BELIEVE and we are made righteous. Paul used Abraham as an example of faith. Abraham did not have to "hate sin" as you seem to believe is a prerequisite to salvation. Faith is required to enter grace not HATE!
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, I have considered all ur points and have responded appropriately with scripture. I am not silencing the opposition (sorry you see it that way) I have given you well thought out replies and answers to ur questions and comments.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, Beloved, God has been pleased by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe (1 Cor. 1:21). Salvation is by believing, and if we tell the lost man that he cannot believe, we shut the gates of Heaven against him and find ourselves in the hideous company of him who "hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ Who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Cor. 4:4)
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, In Rev. 22:17 the Word of God declares "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Here God makes a real offer of the water of life to "WHOSOEVER WILL."
eIe12957 2 years ago
Tulip, concerning the statement that man does not have a free will by which he is able to come to Christ, please note what Jesus said in John 7:17: "if any man will do His will he shall know of the doctrine." Here He said that a man may will to do God's will. Again in John 5:40 Jesus rebuked the Jews when He said "ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." It was not that they could not come, but that they would not come.
eIe12957 2 years ago
Tulip the Calvinist would twist it to read, "when thou art saved by the Lord Jesus Christ thou shalt believe." What utter disregard for the plain teaching of the Word of God.
eIe12957 2 years ago
Tulpi, It is very clear that believing comes first and new birth follows. The verses I have cited from the Gospel of John by no means exhausts the Scripture which prove life through believing. If you will take Strong's Concordance and study the words "believe, believed, and believeth" you will find much more. A notable example is Acts 16:31 where Paul said, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
eIe12957 2 years ago
Tulip concerning the statement that man cannot believe the Gospel, and that man cannot believe until his is born again, let the following Scripture be studied- John 1:12, 3:15, 16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 7:39, 12:36, and 20:31. These Scriptures all show that spiritual life follows upon the sinner's believing in Jesus Christ. The Apostle John gave as his reason for writing his gospel, "that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing ye might have life through His name"
eIe12957 2 years ago
Tulip, God does not mock men by asking them to do what they cannot do. In Acts 11:18 we are told that God hath granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. Notice that the repentance comes first and it results in life.
eIe12957 2 years ago
Yilip, concerning the statement that man cannot repent we find the Word of God stating the exact opposite. In Acts 17:30 we find that God commands all men everywhere to repent, and that having so commanded, He expects they can and will. In 2 Peter 3:9 we find that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. If they should come, then they can come.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIPGospel, if God can "regenerate" man without his cooperation and or faith then why was the cross necessary? Old Testament saints were "credited" with righteousness today a believer is made righteous a massive difference and one that I don not think you understand. Abraham was credited with righteousness not because he "hated sin" but because he believed God. Why do you think Paul used him as an example? Abraham is called the father of faith. Whats the lesson here?
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIP, as of yet you have not refuted a thing, you have proposed theories that "maybe that was God working etc." yet not any scriptural evidence to prove it. U claim that man must be regenerated before he can believe but Paul who you claim is a Calvinist said the exact opposite U claim a sinner does not seek God but when I show you from Gods word examples of sinners seeking God you back peddle & come up with theories. You claim people don't get saved 2 avoid hell but the bible says the opposite
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIPGospel, I am not against Calvin I am against the false and deceiving gospel he promoted. History is undeniable he had people killed and imprisoned for disagreeing with him deny that all you like but it is still a fact.
eIe12957 2 years ago
Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John the Apostle.
because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice
eIe12957 2 years ago
Justin Martyr (AD 110-165)
Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIPGospel, this isn't about winning or losing, I am sorry you see it as some sort of contest. This is about truth and reaching a lost and dying world with the gospel. I have no need to be right, God loved me when I was wrong aka a sinner and he isn't going to stop if I am wrong now. People that need to be right are for the most part insecure and usually revert to insults when they are unable to defend their position. Calvin did the same, goes back to a lack of an understanding of God's love.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIPGospel, I provided evidence and a sound argument from history as well as scripture that the believe in Calvinism was not an early church believe and the apostles did not teach it to those they trained to carry the gospel forward. It was a theology that came many years later. Ur defense has been weak and unsubstantiated by scripture. I haven't ignored the truth at all I have posted it numerous times you are the one who cannot answer the questions or you make statements not found in the word.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIPGospel, The Philippian jailer once asked, "What must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30). If Paul had been a Calvinist he might have said, "You can do nothing to be saved, absolutely nothing. You are dead in sin and a dead man can do nothing. If God doesn't regenerate you, then you are doomed." How different was the answer Paul gave: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31). Paul knew he could "believe".
eIe12957 2 years ago
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TULIPGospel, the Bible does not teach that "regeneration comes before faith."
Romans 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Notice salvation comes after faith and confession, not before. One is not made righteous or saved before they confess Christ.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIPGospel, I dare say you or other Calvinist on this channel if you heard MacArthur, Piper or Washer had people killed or locked up for disagreeing with them, you wouldn't hail them as great Christians leaders and men of God to follow. Of course not but you do for John Calvin, why does he get a pass on bad behavior? Why are you unable to see that this man was controlled by something demonic? If Piper and Washer did the same I am sure you distance yourself from them yet Calvin gets a pass.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIPGospel, I wasn't bashing "Calvin" I was pointing out how he does not qualify according to what Paul wrote about the office of a Bishop how one should act and live. I did not post one fact about Calvin that cannot be verified. He was a man that was obviously absent of any understanding of Gods love. He rejected what Jesus taught about loving ur enemies, he had his killed and imprisoned. Yet the same spirit that led this man also inspired him to come up with a theology called Calvinism today.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIPGospel, while those of the Reformed persuasion are right to reject the Latin heresies of Rome, they have been lax to recognize the Greek heresies introduced before the Latin era, which are equally contrary to the truth of the Christian Faith "once for all delivered to the saints" by the Apostles of Jesus Christ. They seem to hold a higher opinion of philosophers, like Augustine, than of the Apostles themselves, and those to whom the Apostles entrusted the Apostolic tradition.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIPGospel, there seems to have been no exceptions among early Christian writers to the orthodox teaching that man has been granted by God a free will to choose his destiny, and that salvation is available to all. The opposing view, that man is controlled by fate, could only be found in the Greek philosophical schools, Gnosticism, and Eastern mysticism during the first 300 years of Christianity.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TulipGospel, the writings of the orthodox Church, for the first three centuries, are in stark contrast to the ideas of Augustine and Calvin. Man is fully responsible for his choice to respond to or reject the Gospel. This was considered to be the Apostolic doctrine passed down through the local church elders ordained by the Apostles, and their successors.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TulipGospel, prior to the writings of Augustine, the Church universally held that mankind had a totally free will. Each man was responsible before God to accept the Gospel. His ultimate destiny, while fully dependent on God's grace and power, was also dependent on his free choice to submit to or reject God's grace and power. In the three centuries from the Apostles to Augustine the early Church held to NONE of the five points of Calvinism, not one.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIPGospel, I was raised a Calvinist I understand the doctrine very well. The 5 points came from Calvin's teaching while he did not formulate them in that way they most definitely came from his theology. Now I know you will try and claim Augustine as a source and I will admit that Calvin was influenced by him but most of the early church fathers and those taught by the apostles preached very strongly Free-will which is not part of TULIP and goes against TULIP.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TulipGospel, you say "Escaping hell and eternal punishment are never reasons to get saved they are selfish."
Apparently the Bible disagrees with you again!
Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? [Matthew 3:7]
Who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us. [Hebrews 6:18]
There are dozens of verses warning people of hell and you claim that isn't a reason to get saved. Then why the warning?
Was Noah selfish in wanting to escape the flood? Is not the Ark a type of Christ?
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIPGospel, you say "hating sin is the reason one gets saved" A sinner cannot hate sin until after he is born again and then as a new creation in Christ he is no longer a slave to sin. Besides the Bible says is anything not done in faith, so how can a sinner who is not in faith hate sin? Salvation is not conditional on "hating sin" if is by faith and grace. Ones maturity in grace teaches him to hate sin but as a sinner he could never hate it because it is his very nature.
eIe12957 2 years ago
TULIPGospel, Philippian Jailer, when he asked Paul and Silas, "What must I do to be saved? Paul replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household. No mention of hating sin why would the apostle Paul lie or preach a false gospel to the jailer. Looks to me like the Jailer was fearful over the earth quake etc. and wanted to get saved but I dont hear Paul telling him he cant because he is being Selfish.
eIe12957 2 years ago
no wonder I cant post what do you have a comment factory
TULIPGospel 2 years ago
TulipGospel, Is salvation through believing or behaving? The lost are born again by believing in who Jesus is and what He did to provide salvation. This is a message that conditions eternal salvation on the lost man making a commitment to forsake (stop) sinning, start obeying and keep obeying over a life time. That is WORKS salvation it is a corruption of the simplicity that is in Christ, (2 Cor. 11:3).
eIe12957 2 years ago
Linda, you are allowing a true debate.
Most Reformed sites/blogs will kick you off if you fail to agree with them or make the mistake of showing from scripture they are wrong. What are they afraid of?
Truth glorifies Him who is truth, the Son of God. You are showing that Calvinism/Reformed theology is simply not a Biblical system even though many true believers are trapped in it.
And as always, I am amazed at how little they actualy mention the GOSPEL which is God's call.
mikevoter 2 years ago
Lets see Jesus gives Peter a boat load of fish and says come and follow me. The prodigal son is forgiven and restored, the women caught in adultery told to go and sin no more escapes a death sentence. All examples the bible tells us about why and how people come and follow Christ. Peter's was selfish and he became an Apostle, Jesus taught the Pharisee's about the prodigal son explaining God's love to them and the prodigal was selfish as well. The women didn't die for her sin all were selfish!
eIe12957 2 years ago
According to you these "reprobates" sought God for what he could do for them and according to ur doctrine should not have found God but did and not only found God some left sin and served him. It appears you don't place a lot of stock in God's goodness in bringing people to repentance.
eIe12957 2 years ago
Again all theses were of the elect and never reprobates, you have just shown how God bring His elect to Himself.If the Bible says they came to Christ for salvation that means they are of the elect. Simple as that.
TULIPGospel 2 years ago 2
TULIPGospel, I have shown you over and over again sinners who saw or experienced the goodness of God responded and as the Bible teaches they repented aka change of mind". To say that only the elect were saved when God clearly says it is his desire that all men repent is ludicrous. In Rom 8 all those in Christ are predestined to be in his image, no mention of who will or wont be saved just what the outcome is when one is saved.
eIe12957 2 years ago
Wow, there are different kinds of seeking you say, one for selfish means is what the "reprobate" does and seeking to escape hell and eternal punishment isn't selfish according to you
A leper came back who was healed to say thank you and the Jesus made him "whole" God being good to us is similar, it is to eventually allow God to make us whole but that won't happen till they see and understand his goodness which Rom 2 says brings one to repentance. Paul say in Titus 3 it brought him to repentance
eIe12957 2 years ago
Everything is love.
zoranjanev1 2 years ago
panthism is not scriptural, you will not find this in the BIble anywhere.
Is Jesus God in the flesh?
carpentersdaughter2 2 years ago
As we all can see, there are too many different meanings about God.
Nobody is crazy nor stupid (unless he wanted to be crazy or stupid in a particular period of time on the old Earth).
In the Bible stays:
The Kingdom of God will not come like the people on the Earth imagine.
When Heaven will come, we all will be surprised !
By theology, God, whatever it means, is nicer than you can imagine !
zoranjanev1 2 years ago
The Bible says that Satan comes to seek and destroy. That would be people but most of all the truth of God's grace and His wonderful love.
There will always be debates such as this and the best way to know what God's truth is, is to study God's word.
Rightly dividing the word of truth...paul gave this exhoration to Timothy, and I believe all of us can take this scripture to heart and do what has been asked.
carpentersdaughter2 2 years ago
I could weep over the way Calvinism depicts the God of truth, love and mercy! They say since all are sinners, it is perfectly fair that God would pick some to be saved and some to be lost. They claim that His holiness protects Him from a charge of unfairness in this method. The term Noblesse oblige means that one who has the means to help another and does not is in the wrong. God gave His Son for the sins of the world. No sinner can ever blame God for their lost condition. John 3:16
mikevoter 2 years ago
Amen my friend, hold strong, I am praying for you and others who are doing this battle, AND for eyes to be open to the truth and the real sovereignty of God.
carpentersdaughter2 2 years ago
Thanks Linda we all appreciate ur prayers. There are people reading these comments that are being helped and coming to know the truth.
eIe12957 2 years ago
And we write for those who are undecided not for the decidely stubborn. :) Thanks Linda, a great service to the Gospel of grace.
mikevoter 2 years ago
YW.
Hopefully those who are not familiar with this teaching will see how far off John Calvin was.
carpentersdaughter2 2 years ago
Thanks Linda, I have always wondered if a preacher today such as Piper, Washer or McArthur did the things John Calvin did would these same people still listen to them? Surely they have to see and understand that to kill ur enemies or have them thrown in prison goes against what Christ taught us as believers to do. We are to love our enemies not kill them but Calvins actions and lifestyle showed a rejection of what Jesus taught, a very serious flaw in his belief system One they ignore completely
eIe12957 2 years ago
While I am not familiar with this, it goes to show me that a man can not learn the things of God when he has murder in his heart.
carpentersdaughter2 2 years ago
Well put Linda, Calvin was called the Pope of Geneva. From 1541 to 1546, John Calvin caused 58 people to be executed and seventy six were exiled. His victims ranged in age from 16 to 80. The most common capital offense was the opposition to infant baptism. Today, baptism only for accountable believers, is a Baptist distinctive. Others were killed for advocating local church autonomy; opposing the tie-in of church and state: and preaching that Christ died for all sinners (unlimited atonement).
eIe12957 2 years ago
No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: John 6:44
No one can be drawn to Christ apart from the Scriptural instruction. Every one that has heard from the Father, and has learned, comes to me. John 6:45 b
Drawing can be negative or positive.We see false teachers also drawing! Act 20:30: and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
mikevoter 2 years ago
I gave examples of "sinners" seeking or coming to God, you cannot harmonize that with a false doctrine that claims they cannot.
The bible teaches for people to "seek the Lord while you can" this was written to people you believe cannot seek God, yet God says they must be able to or he wouldn't have told them to seek him. Again ur doctrine makes God a liar, you believe he tells people to do something they are unable to do. If people are unable to seek God why did he tell them to SEEK him?
eIe12957 2 years ago
"We teach the reprobate will never seek God" (TG)
Why would he if God must call him and doesn't? So whose fault is it that he is lost? It must be God's fault! And yet you teach God will hold him responsible for not answering a call he is unable to hear!
And then (gag) you teach this shows how Holy God is and (gag) magnifies His grace! Your type of "grace" is truly "amazing"!
If God could save everyone by His power and didn't, He would be guilty of going against His own character.
mikevoter 2 years ago
1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
These r consistent with an honest reading of Joh 3:16. But the Calvinist loves his tradition
mikevoter 2 years ago
The Gospel call is general and goes to all men, the EFFECTUAL call goes to God's elect chosen before the foundation of the world. God is Sovereign AND man is responsible, if we cannot reconcile the two in our finite minds we must be content to believe them and know that God is right and holds the reigns of the world in his mighty hand.
NCEVANGELIST 2 years ago
Jesus said, " A kingdom divided against itself will fall."
Your so-called "reconciliation" of opposing truth is proof that you MUST disregard clear scriptures to maintain your awful doctrine.
This goes beyond "twisting" scripture to worse; removing it from consideration in seeking God's truth.
God does not oppose Himself. He is not giving two calls but one call to all. You are using a term made up from the fevered imagination of the radical Calvinist: the "effectual" call.
mikevoter 2 years ago
NCEVANGELIST, says "The Gospel call is general and goes to all men, the EFFECTUAL call goes to God's elect chosen before the foundation of the world."
The 'EFFECTUAL" call is not in the Bible it is part of Calvinistic theology and is added.
The early church fathers preached "free-will" and warned the early church against this type of preaching and teaching which came almost 500 years later.
eIe12957 2 years ago
The bible says God is not a liar so we know that is not GOOD. The bible makes it very clear what is good and what is not and it makes it very clear what the devil does and what God does. Sadly Calvinist seem to accuse or blame God what the bible says is the work of the devil. This Calvinistic doctrine is called "sovereign grace" while I believe God is sovereign I do not believe in the Calvinistic unbiblical view of "sovereign grace" it makes God out to be a liar and he cannot lie!
eIe12957 2 years ago
Where in the Bible does the Doctrine of Grace make God a liar? He said he would redeem a chosen and peculiar people and so he shall.
NCEVANGELIST 2 years ago
Grace does not make God a liar the Calvinist doctrine of "sovereign grace" does which is not biblical.
No one is saying that God is not sovereign we just disagree with the reformed view of sovereignty.
Might I suggest you start reading from the beginning of the tread to understand the context of our remarks.
eIe12957 2 years ago
Jesus exposed the true intent of these people's hearts by preaching a strong message of commitment. Those who were self-centered were offended and left (Jn. 6:66) while those who were willing to lay down their lives so that they could experience God's abundant life (Lk. 9:24; Jn. 10:10) remained (Jn. 6:68). Commitment to God Himself (not what He can produce) is what always separates the true worshippers of God (Jn. 4:23) from the false.
Try keeping this in context with the rest of scripture.
eIe12957 2 years ago
We, all souls, are God.
The old Earth was some kind of adventure (spiced with self-scaring).
We, all souls from the old Earth, are on our way home to Heaven.
God is love and love is God.
zoranjanev1 2 years ago
You are a nut.
TULIPGospel 2 years ago
Bless you too!
eIe12957 2 years ago
Sorry,I wasnt talking to you to (zoranjanev1)
TULIPGospel 2 years ago
Stay on topic zoranjanev1
carpentersdaughter2 2 years ago
"Why does God do this" because he is a good God. God would do it if no one glorified him at all, it is who he is.
Even if all the lepers refused to give thanks Jesus would have still healed lepers who came and asked, why because that is who he is. God being good brings people to repentance that is bible Rom 2.
Gods goodness brings repentance and he is good to all because he desires all men to repent.
eIe12957 2 years ago
One day Jesus healed a group of lepers and only one came back to give thanks! Again their goes ur theory that sinners "take from God without glorifying Him" that leper did. The demon possessed man even came to Jesus for help. How can a sinner who is demon possessed still have the ability to come to God for help? According to Calvinism that should or would never happen. Yet we see all trhough the bible people who were not saved come to God in faith.
eIe12957 2 years ago
And none of these examples prove that God is not behind causing, Cornelius and the leper.The Bible is just stating what they did.
TULIPGospel 2 years ago 2
Yes and what they did as "sinners" is seek God something you claim a sinner cannot or will not do. You have to believe that God was doing something behind the scenes that he was keeping secret to support a biblicaly flawed doctrine such as Calvinism. Each time you are shown scripture that disproves TULIP you claim "well we don't know blah, blah!"
The Bible tells us clearly what they did and they were seeking God and God heard them all the while they were sinners.
eIe12957 2 years ago
I really like how you say, THEY ARE SINNERS......hmmmmmmm.
carpentersdaughter2 2 years ago
The most of the theologists where need to interpret the Bible allegorically interpret the Bible literally, and where need to interpret the Bible literally interpret the Bible allegorically.
Besides, God can write Bible, and God can erase Bible.
zoranjanev1 2 years ago
Matthew 24:25
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
carpentersdaughter2 2 years ago
You need to read your bible a little closer, notice Cornelius in the book of Acts he was not saved but wanted to know God ur theory that is based on Calvinism does not line up at all with what the bible teaches. Look at all the sinners that hung around Jesus and followed him into a desert to listen to what he said forgetting food and water. Apparently the "unsaved" do care as I have just shown by scripture. You have a belief system that does not line up with biblical facts.
eIe12957 2 years ago
If there are Paradise and hell, how the souls in Paradise can be happy, while some other souls suffer in hell ?
Here, I got few answers to that question. The authors of that answers or have not heart, or didn't experience suffering. All that answers belong to Inconceivable.
zoranjanev1 2 years ago
Sorry like the sun and the rain the mercy of God falls on the just and unjust, if it didn't then God would be a respecter of persons.
Jesus taught in Luke 6 that a sinner loves only those that love them! This is how the Calvinist view Gods' love that God only loves those that love God and God makes them love him. Sorry but God's love is far greater, agape love loves those who do not love God Jesus revealed this in his life. 1 John 4:19 tells us why we love God because he first loved us.
eIe12957 2 years ago
Yes and God's kindness leads to repentance. Rom 2. Paul said the kindness of God reveals salvation Titus 3 try connecting the dots. To say that God's kindness is just physical is to ignore a vast amount of scripture, ask yourself why is God kind? There is a reason Jesus taught on the nature of his father something most Calvinist miss, John Calvin surly did Jesus said love ur enemies and Calving killed and imprisoned his. I would say Calvin didn't believe what Jesus taught.
eIe12957 2 years ago
The THINGS of the Lord are not the Gospel message which anyone can understand and choose to believe. The THINGS of the Lord are deeper teachings which no one can understand unless they believe the Gospel first. IOW, you cant do trigonometry if you cant add 2+2! Jesus said the same thing about this matter in John 3:12: If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? All R invited, all can be saved.
mikevoter 2 years ago
Here's a favorite Calvinist verse which taken from context to support their twisted theology:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
AHA! say they; U C how a sinner cannot understand the Gospel unless God open their heart! But the first part of this chapter has Paul telling that his first message was the Gospel. Then "the THINGS of the Lord" ...
mikevoter 2 years ago
There is nothing deeper that The Gospel.We will spend an eternity chasing down the Glories of Christ in the Gospel.You are reading into these verses.
TULIPGospel 2 years ago
I'm sorry, that's ridiculous. Perhaps you should read 1 Corinthians 2 and see that two different levels of teaching are demonstrated and identified by Paul.
The writer of Hebrews also teaches Christians to not stay forever in the ABC's of Christianity but to move on into deeper knowledge.
mikevoter 2 years ago
How sad.if that's ridiculous then I fear for your Salvation.
TULIPGospel 2 years ago