I can't see Kirk or Picard doing what Sisko did. It gave the Federation an advantage and helped protect the quadrant but still. All 3 captains were great. Kirk had a sense of humor, clever yet impulsive, a horn dog, but loyal. Picard was logical, patient, disciplined, selfless but stuck to close to the rule book. Sisko was brooding, easy to anger yet smart as well as tough and brave and obviously the darkest captain with complex emotions.
Long live TOS/TNG/DS9 the best ST series in my opinion.
@TheRWJJ Batman is actualy the last one, who wouldthink like that.Yeah, Im nerd.
Even though Im against "let just kill them all", or "smaller evil, to get things moving" kind of acts, I think romulan guy had it coming. Romulan rulers acted like selfish, greedy, manipulative assholes so much, even towards their own people, that it was about damm time, to do move their asses and do something for usefull.
@Ikarosus Would have to disagree with you there, friend. The whole point of Ds9 was to break away from the 'golden boy' image of the Federation and to show a more mature, ugly side to the Star Trek universe. Hence Sisko was was developed into more of an 'anti-hero', a far more in depth character with human flaws and is not immune to the events surrounding him. It was the only way to make Ds9 compelling and maintain a strong linear story over several seasons.
this episode is awesome. the acting is top notch, and its a bad ass story. as a member of the us military, i would do what they did to save the country. sometimes you just gotta get a lil dirty.. and to help an allied country too. if the chips were down..... better to win and be dirty than be clean and dead......
@Anarchist86ed well they would have ended up fighting the dominion anyway. and with the federation, and clingons defeated, they wouldnt have lasted without help. "better to fight under the pretence of a lie, than be inslaved under someones heel cause of the truth." C. Clay, 2012....
@wwclay86 except that the dominion actually honored it's peace treaties. They may have been evil, but they honored the peace treaty with Bajor. And Bajor is militarily and technologically inferior. The Romulans would have signed a peace treaty against an overwhelming military force. They may have been militaristic, but they weren't stupid.
And I can't believe I'm debating 90's star trek politics.
[..] we have become XXIVth century Rome, where Ceasar could do no wrong ! [..]
- dr. Julian Bashir
Anyway, I think Romulans deliberately let Federation drag themselves into war (certainly Vreenak reported his detour to DS9!), because it was in their long term interest, but they preferred to have it that way - it's more Romulan.
That's quite different message Roddenberry wanted to convey; suprisingly, W. Adama of Battlestar Galactica said it well: "it's not enough to survive ... one has to be worth of survival".
What I have always like is how Sisko just accepts what he has done. He does not justify it(ie.. I needed to do it to save my crew/ship etc) or make excuces ( I had no choice) like other Captians in Star Trek. He just says " I lied, cheated and am an accessory to murder, and I can live with that".
@cuzzinator I always found that interesting too. When he is retelling the story there is no panic or worry. What I always found odd though was his body language in the final scene when he tells the computer to erase that entire personal log, it's as if he CAN and likely will live with it but at times he may have a hard time doing so.
@katlu8984 I think it's more of a precaution. You don't want there to be evidence/confession of what you've done to just be lying in the databanks of your personal logs.
i'm trying to find out the name of a recent series (last 10 years) in which something happens to the moon. does this sound familiar to anyone? your help will be greatly appreciated if you know. thanks.
@Enderschoice It's an apt analogy but, unfortunately, not a historically accurate one. Bletchley Park didn't decrypt the plans to bomb Coventry until weeks afterward. BTW, love your name. Orson Scott Card is one of my personal favorites.
thats how uk got america in war by attacking pearl harbour and blaming japan. id tell starfleet give me the best starship they have or i will tell the romulans what they did, causing millions to die in a human made war.then id say give me a new starship upgrade every 3years or else. id be buzzing
@Azakhiel That's really Sisko and DS9 in a nutshell - shades of grey. With Picard and Kirk, they were both clearly moral to a fault... Janeway and Archer both had morality that changed like the hands on a clock.
Sisko was the only one with real nuance and I think this episode is his finest hour... totally at odds with the original Roddenbury ideal of the enlightened and selfless humanity he initially imagined but fantastic, nonetheless.
@Matrix49A Get a grip dude. First off, Roosevelt was informed by Britain he chose to wait and see. Second off, no one enjoys an ethnocentric and xenophobic jerk posting on the a subject that has nothing to do with what we were discussing. Please, take your combative aggression elsewhere.
Possibly one of the best episodes in all of the Star Trek franchise and why DS9 was the best series of them all; because it is was the realistic to what human nature really is like under all that technology and comfort.
Great clip! Man, DS9 was SUCH a good show. Amazing characters, HUGE story arcs, the War that spanned several seasons. (Several years?) The Occupation.
-Garak was one cool Cardassian.
-I especially loved how even the minor reoccuring roles KEPT reoccuring. Like Garak here, the Female shapeshifter, the Starfleet Admiral, the Klingon General, the religious figures on Bajor - Kewl Beanz!
@TechnoMageB5 Ahh but sometimes "the one out ways the needs of the many!" Kirk philosophy, go to hell, Spocks more important than your damn rules. I think he proved right!
Sisko acts outraged but he must have known deep down this was the plan. I mean did he really think a competant forger would let himself be arrested by klingons!
Remember said forger stabbed quark while drunk. Just because they are good in a criminal activity doesn't mean they will not do something stupid and get caught.
You know what they say: "The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few or the one." They wanted to have a alliance with the Romulans so they could join the war and they got it.
Well at least sisko was honest with himself at the end! You all should investigate Baha'u'llah to determine what you think of sisko. At least I would. That's the only way to get my bearings on the matter.
@rsll1986 He wasn't saying that at all. He was just saying that, given the realities of war, one person wounded (not even killed) is a comparatively good day.
@katlu8984 You want an ethics class example... how about Winston Churchill (a real political leader not a make believe character) having intelligence the Japanese were going to attack America at Pearl harbor and deciding NOT to tell Roosevelt. And the flip side...maybe he did tell Roosevelt....
@Crymson1 You are wrong British MI5 had documented proof Japanese agents were looking for DETAILED information on how the British sank a warship using aerial torpedoes in a shallow harbor waters. Why would they want to know how to do exactly that? The only shallow-watered harbor in the entire Pacific is Pearl. I believe it was an Italian Battleship but do not take my word for it. Do your homework. Research research
@matrix49A I HAVE done my research. I'm an avid reader of WWII history. What is KNOWN is that nobody knows if Churchill or Roosevelt had advanced warning.
right after garak's last line, i keep imagining the young ensign, who came in to pick up the jacket he was having altered, standing sheepishly at the door, "ummm...is this a bad time?"
@chrismc410 How was that anger wrong? The deception had already failed and created a potential new enemy, if the romulans correctly discovered what happened to the shuttle, they would strike at the federation with even greater resolve to crush them. Of course the writers were going to make it turn out favorably, for there would be no more stories if it hadn't, but if this happened in reality, there was a damn good chance the federation and klingons would be doomed for this.
True, but it's equally possible that Romulans themselves could have orchestred "beeing dragged into a war" by Federation and later use it as a leverage against it, after the war. That would be good story line as well. Though event's of Nemesis make it .. unlikely.
What needs to happen is an HBO or Showtime Star Trek series. A gritty, realistic, series similar to the types of shows that they produce. Of course, it may not be possible for kids to watch the show because of the rawness of the sexuality and violence, but man would that be an awesome series to watch. Just imagine the raw drama and action of a Breaking Bad or True Blood in a new Star Trek series. My mind is blown just thinking about it.
The Romulins really get the butt end of everything in Trek. The last 12 yrs havnt been good with them. Tricked into the Dominion War. Entire senate assassinated. Planet destroyed.
@yaahyak Yeah I agree, I wish they would make a series about the Romulans... maybe have it shortly after the war with the Dominion. Possibly have it centered around a crew with a new type of Warbird that kicks ass!
Restore some of the fear factor TNG era had them portrayed as.
@grillinIstheLife Your opinion is correct. Star Trek, in this case, discarded is cliche love for the federations morality which entails undying allegiance to a "federation" with a moral imperative, and entered the realm of humanity, where people do what they have to do. In short, this is possibly the best star trek episode anyone could watch, and one of the only ones worth watching.
You see, most captains will just go up to the line and sniff it, like Picard.
Then you have those that will walk on the line but not cross it, like Kirk.
Captains like Janeway will not cross the line UNLESS the stakes are against her crew.
BUT sisko? Not ONLY will he step up to the line AND walk on the line; BUT he will take 5 fives steps PAST it before looking back at you and say "Line? What line?"
Thats IF the rod does survive the explosion, IF Sen Vrenak didnt make a log stating it was a fake, IF Sen Vrenak didnt discuss it over subspace with high command, etc....
@mgallmachine Garak would have placed the rod in a place where it wouldnt have been completely destroyed, Vrenak would not have sent a message to the senate as he was traveling in a cloaked ship from a secret meeting that wasnt supposed to have taken place. Subspace communication would have been considered not secure enough.
@deltan42 Yeah, that's a good point. But I thought Garak sneaked on board before Vrenak left and in that case Vrenak would have had control of the rod. Unless Garak put another copy where it wouldn't have been destoyed. Either way, Garak is one scary dude.
@mgallmachine Besides, with Garak's abilities he could have placed the shuttle in a "forceful" autopilot after a few minutes it has undocked, cutting all communications to high command and flooding the whole shuttle with neurazine gas at the same time. But that part is left to the audiences' interpretation.
@RatedRKJerichO "In the Pale Moonlight", Season 6, Episode 19. Fans argue over if it is either the greatest episode of any Trek series, or the very worst. Do you prefer a pure-as-the-driven-snow vision of humanity, or do you enjoy nuanced storytelling?
Sisko and Garak saved the Federation by compromising what it stands for. I just love how dark and ironic this episode is. It's a great demonstration of the complexity and variability of morality, and that ultimately morality is a construct created to increase our quality and chances of survival, and will be changed or altered every now and then to meet that objective.
Throughout Brooks' monologue here, I've commented before that the glass makes an awesome literary device throughout the program. It helps articulate the need to take a break, seek refreshment in a war that is obviously draining Sisko's resolve. It symbolizes the triumphant victory of the unfolding of the plot as he raises the glass at 5:48, and finally, the bitter sum that Sisko has to swallow as a consequence of his actions. It does all of this so subtly that you hardly notice it in the scene.
One of the very best episodes of DS9 without a doubt.
Despite the fact that even though the plot deals with something that has absolutely massive ramifications for every single being in the Alpha Quadrant the real heart of the episode is about one man.
It manages to pull-off the balance between plot-development and character-development perfectly.
The way I look at it morals are all fine and good when you have a full stomach,are nice and warm and safe.But when you're back is to the wall with you and everything you love about to be wiped out than you have to do what you got to do to survive.Doing a small bit of evil to defeat a much larger evil who is trying to kill you might be the only chance you have.
This is one of my favorite DS9 episodes for a couple of reasons:
It breaks the fourth wall.
It shows that sometimes you have to sacrifice your principles in order to save lives.
Decieving potential allies wouldn't sit well with me at all. But I would do it, if only to keep people entrusted to me safe from harm, or at least safer.
He's dictating a log. It's no more fourth wall-breaking than "Data's Day", which has Data narrating an entire day's log during the episode. Or the episode of Enterprise which has Phlox dictating a letter to his friend, which you hear thruout the episode.
@Draknfyre In my mind, it did. Normally on Trek, the narrations are just 'there'. There's no expectations and nothing to them other than setting up the episode.
With this log, it's different. Sisko is looking directly at the viewer and explaining his actions as though he were looking for a moral guide of some kind. It breaks the fourth wall, to me, because Sisko's delivery feels like he's 'talking' to the viewer.
Of course, this is just how it struck me. You probably feel different.
Of course it's meant to be directly to the viewer, but that's less breaking the fourth wall, and more literary exposition. Something that comes much closer to breaking the fourth wall is the end of TNG when Q says it's time to "end your trek through the stars.", and in First Contact when Zefram Cochrane said "So you guys are on some kind of star trek?"
@Draknfyre I disagree, because breaking the fourth wall refers to a character addressing the audience, as though the "fourth wall", the one which we are viewing the action through, has temporarily been broken away and the character can see us. Both of your examples deal with characters talking to one another, not to the audience, and leans toward Easter Egg more than fourth wall breaking. This log entry however is implicitly directed at the audience, and so is a case of breaking the fourth wall.
Breaking the fourth wall is also defined as an outside reference to the media the person is in. So referring to "Star Trek" while in the movie, especially when describing the main cast, is definitely breaking the fourth wall.
I will take your name meaning you are a Star Wars fan. If a Jedi were to meet with the Jedi Council, and one were to describe their battles as "These Star Wars", it would be a huge fourth-wall breaking moment.
@Draknfyre Where did you hear that? It's never been defined as anything other than drawing attention to the fictionality of the universe or acknowledging the audience's presence. It's like when C-3PO pauses and says "How typical" toward the camera in The Empire Strikes Back.
Making an outside reference to the media a character is in is defined as a Shout Out, because it makes reference to something the viewers would recognize but most people outside the fanbase wouldn't.
C-3PO talked to himself. He wasn't talking to the audience. How many times did he talk, and assume R2-D2 was next to him, but wasn't? He would comment on his partner absence. It wasn't necessarily to the audience, real people do that kind of thing, too, you know.
I would say referencing the show or movie's name in a way which attributes it to the main cast is pretty fourth wall-breaking.
I don't think you would need to be a fan to recognize a character saying "Star Trek".
@Draknfyre Real people may do it, but it isn't 4th wall breaking because real life is, by definition, real.
3PO was breaking the 4th wall then, because he was addressing the audience, not anyone else, regardless of whether he thought R2 was next to him.
As I said, referencing the show or movie's name is a shout out if it's anything, not 4th wall breaking, because it isn't meant to, nor does it draw attention to, the fictionality of the universe. Look up fourth wall breaking on TVTropes.
We will just have to agree to disagree then, because while we both know what breaking the fourth wall is (I never disputed your definition, I said the one I described applied also), we disagree on the degree of it.
While some people may find C-3PO's lines 4th wall breaking, in most situations I do not.
I find Sisko's log aimed at the audience while under the pretense of a log. I do not classify it the same as a character looking directly at the audience, and making quips.
@Draknfyre No problem. Like I said, your opinion is different from mine, so if you don't see it my way, it's no big deal. I'm not so hard-headed that I'm going to beat your brain out trying to get my point across. :)
@millenniumf1138 Actually I believe that Sisko wasn't speaking to the audience but he was explaining to his superiors what had happened and why. Most of Star Trek narration are based on the logs of the Star Fleet Officers. What this episode did was instead of the narration used at the beginning to introduce the story, it was used to supplement the story where it's easier to use narration than show the actual scenes themselves. It makes the story telling more interesting in my opinion.
it would've had more impact if the power in question were traditional good guys like klingons, as it stands they're just evil romulans so who cares that they were tricked into committing their state to a devastating war
This is what made DS9 one of my favorite series. The ridiculously long story arcs that span over several seasons. Also, DS9 showed us the much dark side of morality.
In war, nothing is more honorable than winning. Sisko and Garak did the right thing.
SuperSpaceMaster 10 hours ago
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I can't see Kirk or Picard doing what Sisko did. It gave the Federation an advantage and helped protect the quadrant but still. All 3 captains were great. Kirk had a sense of humor, clever yet impulsive, a horn dog, but loyal. Picard was logical, patient, disciplined, selfless but stuck to close to the rule book. Sisko was brooding, easy to anger yet smart as well as tough and brave and obviously the darkest captain with complex emotions.
Long live TOS/TNG/DS9 the best ST series in my opinion.
Yabuturtle 2 weeks ago
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Yabuturtle 2 weeks ago
Sisko. The ends justify the means. The Batman of Ds9.
TheRWJJ 3 weeks ago
@TheRWJJ Batman is actualy the last one, who wouldthink like that.Yeah, Im nerd.
Even though Im against "let just kill them all", or "smaller evil, to get things moving" kind of acts, I think romulan guy had it coming. Romulan rulers acted like selfish, greedy, manipulative assholes so much, even towards their own people, that it was about damm time, to do move their asses and do something for usefull.
Ikarosus 4 days ago
@Ikarosus Would have to disagree with you there, friend. The whole point of Ds9 was to break away from the 'golden boy' image of the Federation and to show a more mature, ugly side to the Star Trek universe. Hence Sisko was was developed into more of an 'anti-hero', a far more in depth character with human flaws and is not immune to the events surrounding him. It was the only way to make Ds9 compelling and maintain a strong linear story over several seasons.
TheRWJJ 4 days ago
@TheRWJJ Im not complaining, or defending Siskos behavior. I just think of what happened as kind of poetic universal justice.
Ikarosus 3 days ago
@Ikarosus Ah, I get you. Well yeah, I guess that makes sense in a 'karmic' sense.
TheRWJJ 3 days ago
Garak is smarter then section 31.
MrDavy78 1 month ago 2
This is probably the best episode from DS9, after the dominion war started, this show got so juicy it was the best story line and energized this show
robsaxan 1 month ago
this episode is awesome. the acting is top notch, and its a bad ass story. as a member of the us military, i would do what they did to save the country. sometimes you just gotta get a lil dirty.. and to help an allied country too. if the chips were down..... better to win and be dirty than be clean and dead......
wwclay86 1 month ago
@wwclay86 so you're fine with all those romulans being killed in a war they didn't start, and didn't wan't to fight?
Hmmm, sounds like things will be the same in the 24th century as it is now. Always expendable people when someone elses agenda is at stake.
Anarchist86ed 1 month ago
@Anarchist86ed well they would have ended up fighting the dominion anyway. and with the federation, and clingons defeated, they wouldnt have lasted without help. "better to fight under the pretence of a lie, than be inslaved under someones heel cause of the truth." C. Clay, 2012....
wwclay86 1 month ago
@wwclay86 except that the dominion actually honored it's peace treaties. They may have been evil, but they honored the peace treaty with Bajor. And Bajor is militarily and technologically inferior. The Romulans would have signed a peace treaty against an overwhelming military force. They may have been militaristic, but they weren't stupid.
And I can't believe I'm debating 90's star trek politics.
Anarchist86ed 1 month ago
@Anarchist86ed but it was fun to argue it. i love a good arguement.
wwclay86 1 month ago
@Anarchist86ed
[..] we have become XXIVth century Rome, where Ceasar could do no wrong ! [..]
- dr. Julian Bashir
Anyway, I think Romulans deliberately let Federation drag themselves into war (certainly Vreenak reported his detour to DS9!), because it was in their long term interest, but they preferred to have it that way - it's more Romulan.
AnteyPL 2 weeks ago
@wwclay86
That's quite different message Roddenberry wanted to convey; suprisingly, W. Adama of Battlestar Galactica said it well: "it's not enough to survive ... one has to be worth of survival".
AnteyPL 2 weeks ago
Brilliant. Garak is brilliant. Sisko is brilliant. DS9 is brilliant.
bennymutant 1 month ago 2
I believe there is a famous quote which goes on something like:
If you come to have a fair fight, then you are not doing it right.
Waterflux 1 month ago
This is one of the reasons why I liked DS9. Humans were still humans with their warts and all.
RADIXCHRISTUSMOLE 1 month ago
In a sense, it all comes back to the data rod. It should have held up. 'Ethics' begins and ends right there.
FilmSlides 1 month ago
What I have always like is how Sisko just accepts what he has done. He does not justify it(ie.. I needed to do it to save my crew/ship etc) or make excuces ( I had no choice) like other Captians in Star Trek. He just says " I lied, cheated and am an accessory to murder, and I can live with that".
cuzzinator 1 month ago 5
@cuzzinator I always found that interesting too. When he is retelling the story there is no panic or worry. What I always found odd though was his body language in the final scene when he tells the computer to erase that entire personal log, it's as if he CAN and likely will live with it but at times he may have a hard time doing so.
katlu8984 2 weeks ago
@katlu8984 I think it's more of a precaution. You don't want there to be evidence/confession of what you've done to just be lying in the databanks of your personal logs.
Spiderblade 1 week ago
i'm trying to find out the name of a recent series (last 10 years) in which something happens to the moon. does this sound familiar to anyone? your help will be greatly appreciated if you know. thanks.
testmonkey535 1 month ago in playlist Favorite videos
It's like Churchill and Coventry (if that's the right city name).
Enderschoice 1 month ago
@Enderschoice It's an apt analogy but, unfortunately, not a historically accurate one. Bletchley Park didn't decrypt the plans to bomb Coventry until weeks afterward. BTW, love your name. Orson Scott Card is one of my personal favorites.
mdtalley 1 month ago
@mdtalley Ahhh. Gotcha. And would you believe I've never read Ender's Game or any of Orson Scott Card's books? Came up with it on my own.
Enderschoice 1 month ago
@Enderschoice Read it, you won't be disappointed.
mdtalley 1 month ago
@Enderschoice It's a bit depressing, but very interesting.
iammadness 1 month ago
The American Navy sunk brazilian merchant ships in the Second World War to force the Brazil to enter into the war.
Vindix007 2 months ago
thats how uk got america in war by attacking pearl harbour and blaming japan. id tell starfleet give me the best starship they have or i will tell the romulans what they did, causing millions to die in a human made war.then id say give me a new starship upgrade every 3years or else. id be buzzing
mrlogicalman1 2 months ago
That's why I love Sisko so much. He's such a shades of gray character.
Azakhiel 2 months ago
@Azakhiel That's really Sisko and DS9 in a nutshell - shades of grey. With Picard and Kirk, they were both clearly moral to a fault... Janeway and Archer both had morality that changed like the hands on a clock.
Sisko was the only one with real nuance and I think this episode is his finest hour... totally at odds with the original Roddenbury ideal of the enlightened and selfless humanity he initially imagined but fantastic, nonetheless.
ProphetTenebrae 2 months ago 10
@ProphetTenebrae mvmvcc
Ikarosus 4 days ago
Seeing Sisko stoop to such drastic measures just to bring the war in their favor, is what makes this episode so memorable.
kevinphoenix2007 2 months ago
@Matrix49A Get a grip dude. First off, Roosevelt was informed by Britain he chose to wait and see. Second off, no one enjoys an ethnocentric and xenophobic jerk posting on the a subject that has nothing to do with what we were discussing. Please, take your combative aggression elsewhere.
katlu8984 2 months ago
"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few."
kesselrunfun 2 months ago
Fantastic episode - fantastic writing, stellar acting. But the best part is the moral of the story: sometimes Hawk gotta smack a Cardie, you dig?
daviddrakehunter 2 months ago
I would do it.....kill one to save the universe.....not sure how ethical it is though....
ColonelFleet 2 months ago
Possibly one of the best episodes in all of the Star Trek franchise and why DS9 was the best series of them all; because it is was the realistic to what human nature really is like under all that technology and comfort.
brianblackberry 2 months ago 3
Ahem...
IT'S A FAAAAAAAKE!!!!
Thank you.
dalitvak89 3 months ago
This should have been star trek 10
alexbaxthedarkside 3 months ago
This scenario is something that happens every day. Its diplomacy at its best.
78starbuck 3 months ago
That is a whole lot of fierceness coming from Avery Brooks, there - especially at the end.
TheVikingElvis 3 months ago
You can see Sisko's rage meter slowly fill...all within twenty seconds.
2:23 = LOW
2:33 = MIDDLE
2:43 = HIGH
pinoi78 3 months ago
One of if not my favorite DS9 episodes!
cmichalakis 4 months ago
I love the end.
matchbox2022 4 months ago
Great clip! Man, DS9 was SUCH a good show. Amazing characters, HUGE story arcs, the War that spanned several seasons. (Several years?) The Occupation.
-Garak was one cool Cardassian.
-I especially loved how even the minor reoccuring roles KEPT reoccuring. Like Garak here, the Female shapeshifter, the Starfleet Admiral, the Klingon General, the religious figures on Bajor - Kewl Beanz!
(I can't recall the names, it's been awhile.)
Star Trek Forever!
TheRadical42 4 months ago 2
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
Brilliant and tragic application of that datum!
TechnoMageB5 4 months ago
@TechnoMageB5 Ahh but sometimes "the one out ways the needs of the many!" Kirk philosophy, go to hell, Spocks more important than your damn rules. I think he proved right!
gmcclelland1992 4 months ago
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Garak, you cowardly, slimy, duplicitous bastard.... you saved us all.
darquecyde 4 months ago
Sisko acts outraged but he must have known deep down this was the plan. I mean did he really think a competant forger would let himself be arrested by klingons!
mattwho81 4 months ago
@mattwho81
Remember said forger stabbed quark while drunk. Just because they are good in a criminal activity doesn't mean they will not do something stupid and get caught.
toomanyaccounts 4 months ago
So the Dominion comes with Cardassian collaborators? We are ready!
nagash303 4 months ago
I love the idea that if you lie to him, Sisko just walks into your shop and punches you in the face.
EmperorJim 4 months ago
You know what they say: "The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few or the one." They wanted to have a alliance with the Romulans so they could join the war and they got it.
nyc1164 4 months ago
Garak did the right thing. The Romulans are bitches, plain and simple.
Chupacabra777 4 months ago in playlist DS9
!!! its a fakeeeeee !!
chadsexinton 4 months ago
Star Wars: "It's a trap!!"
Star Trek: "It's a fake!!"
..and IMO the best episode of DS9, and perhaps of the entirety of TV-based Trek.
scarred2112 4 months ago
nothing better than spending time watching a little star trek!
rsll1986 4 months ago
Brilliant, Wonderful Glorious!
rsll1986 4 months ago
Well at least sisko was honest with himself at the end! You all should investigate Baha'u'llah to determine what you think of sisko. At least I would. That's the only way to get my bearings on the matter.
rsll1986 4 months ago
it's okay for a friend of a friend to die! Julian is evil. Well not really. He is and he isn't.
rsll1986 4 months ago
@rsll1986 He wasn't saying that at all. He was just saying that, given the realities of war, one person wounded (not even killed) is a comparatively good day.
WavemasterAshi 4 months ago
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Boy, Sisko is one BADDDDDDDDD dude. : ) He should have just been honest! But it all worked out! GO FEDERATION!
rsll1986 4 months ago
Boy, Sisko is on BADDDDDDDDD dude. : ) He should have just been honest! But it all worked out! GO FEDERATION!
rsll1986 4 months ago
It should be noted one of the DS9 novels has Sisko going to the federation and telling them what he did to get the Romulans into the war.
toomanyaccounts 4 months ago
3 people also thought it was a Feeeeeeehhhk!
mahdogzbite 4 months ago
This episode belongs in every college level ethics class.
katlu8984 5 months ago 71
@katlu8984 Absolutely it does.
Snooks475 4 months ago
@katlu8984 Oh yeah dude, excellent, maybe you can bring it to there attention someday.
Dalamantia 2 months ago
@Dalamantia their*
Dalamantia 2 months ago
@katlu8984 it's the classical case, "if you can kill one to save 5 then would you do it?" question.
not really a right answer to it.
BlueCrystalGem 2 months ago
@katlu8984 You want an ethics class example... how about Winston Churchill (a real political leader not a make believe character) having intelligence the Japanese were going to attack America at Pearl harbor and deciding NOT to tell Roosevelt. And the flip side...maybe he did tell Roosevelt....
matrix49A 2 months ago
@matrix49A they DID tell the Americans, the Russians AND the Brits
kesselrunfun 2 months ago
@kesselrunfun Churchill was British stupid. You are not educated enough to understand what you are flaming.
matrix49A 2 months ago
@matrix49A he understood the value of intelligence gathering, something the American's never got the hang of. I take it you're an American.
kesselrunfun 2 months ago
@matrix49A There's no evidence that Churchill knew of the impending attack. It is a theory that has never been confirmed.
Crymson1 2 months ago
@Crymson1 You are wrong British MI5 had documented proof Japanese agents were looking for DETAILED information on how the British sank a warship using aerial torpedoes in a shallow harbor waters. Why would they want to know how to do exactly that? The only shallow-watered harbor in the entire Pacific is Pearl. I believe it was an Italian Battleship but do not take my word for it. Do your homework. Research research
matrix49A 2 months ago
@matrix49A I HAVE done my research. I'm an avid reader of WWII history. What is KNOWN is that nobody knows if Churchill or Roosevelt had advanced warning.
Crymson1 2 months ago
@katlu8984
True. Along with "The Offspring", "The Measure Of Man", "The Drumhead" from TNG and "Death Wish" from Voyager.
AnteyPL 2 weeks ago
Sisko: "Who's watching Tolar?"
Garak: "I've locked him in his quarters. He is under the impression that should he attempt to force the door, it will explode."
Sisko: "I hope its only an impression..."
Garak: "Its best not to dwell on such minutiae..."
cerealkiller1124 5 months ago 14
Garak kicks ass.
imh11621 5 months ago
It's a steak baaaaaake!
Nerdovich 5 months ago
right after garak's last line, i keep imagining the young ensign, who came in to pick up the jacket he was having altered, standing sheepishly at the door, "ummm...is this a bad time?"
nightowl685 5 months ago 4
sisko never did anything wrong he did not murder anyone and had no clue that they would be murdered
he also knew that the romulans would be next so he was saving lifes by brining them into the war
garek was the one that did all the dirty work and you got to love him for it one of my fav chars
you could argue that this episode was all about all about
the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
joho36 5 months ago
3 people must be working for the Dominion.
ChutneyFerret69 5 months ago 5
I want this show back on SyFy Network!
FerretJohn 6 months ago
@FerretJohn It's a yyeeeeessssss!!!!
thomasdub 5 months ago
The conclusion I draw is don't cross Garak.
fjccommish 6 months ago 51
@fjccommish Do you think after Garak's speech he proceeded to beat Sisko to a pulp for whaling on him for really no reason?
chrismc410 2 months ago
@chrismc410 How was that anger wrong? The deception had already failed and created a potential new enemy, if the romulans correctly discovered what happened to the shuttle, they would strike at the federation with even greater resolve to crush them. Of course the writers were going to make it turn out favorably, for there would be no more stories if it hadn't, but if this happened in reality, there was a damn good chance the federation and klingons would be doomed for this.
tremedar 1 month ago
@tremedar
True, but it's equally possible that Romulans themselves could have orchestred "beeing dragged into a war" by Federation and later use it as a leverage against it, after the war. That would be good story line as well. Though event's of Nemesis make it .. unlikely.
AnteyPL 2 weeks ago
garak is the best haha
turnbats 6 months ago
What needs to happen is an HBO or Showtime Star Trek series. A gritty, realistic, series similar to the types of shows that they produce. Of course, it may not be possible for kids to watch the show because of the rawness of the sexuality and violence, but man would that be an awesome series to watch. Just imagine the raw drama and action of a Breaking Bad or True Blood in a new Star Trek series. My mind is blown just thinking about it.
Beowolf8312 6 months ago
3 people were backhanded by Sisko
blahtotheblahblah 6 months ago
The Romulins really get the butt end of everything in Trek. The last 12 yrs havnt been good with them. Tricked into the Dominion War. Entire senate assassinated. Planet destroyed.
yaahyak 6 months ago in playlist Star Trek
@yaahyak Yeah I agree, I wish they would make a series about the Romulans... maybe have it shortly after the war with the Dominion. Possibly have it centered around a crew with a new type of Warbird that kicks ass!
Restore some of the fear factor TNG era had them portrayed as.
AstroTrain100 6 months ago 5
@AstroTrain100 The problem is that there is no more Romulus.
Xerxes2005 6 months ago
Possibly the best episode of Star Trek in my opinion.
grillinIstheLife 6 months ago
@grillinIstheLife Your opinion is correct. Star Trek, in this case, discarded is cliche love for the federations morality which entails undying allegiance to a "federation" with a moral imperative, and entered the realm of humanity, where people do what they have to do. In short, this is possibly the best star trek episode anyone could watch, and one of the only ones worth watching.
shitthrowingmonkey1 6 months ago
I loved that sinister side of Sisko.
You see, most captains will just go up to the line and sniff it, like Picard.
Then you have those that will walk on the line but not cross it, like Kirk.
Captains like Janeway will not cross the line UNLESS the stakes are against her crew.
BUT sisko? Not ONLY will he step up to the line AND walk on the line; BUT he will take 5 fives steps PAST it before looking back at you and say "Line? What line?"
Darkphoenix007A 6 months ago 3
I guess whenever these Federation people talk about being more evolved they're talking out their ass.
davenielsen78 6 months ago
Garak...what a snake !
oneleggedspider 7 months ago
Thats IF the rod does survive the explosion, IF Sen Vrenak didnt make a log stating it was a fake, IF Sen Vrenak didnt discuss it over subspace with high command, etc....
mgallmachine 7 months ago
@mgallmachine Garak would have placed the rod in a place where it wouldnt have been completely destroyed, Vrenak would not have sent a message to the senate as he was traveling in a cloaked ship from a secret meeting that wasnt supposed to have taken place. Subspace communication would have been considered not secure enough.
deltan42 7 months ago
@deltan42 Yeah, that's a good point. But I thought Garak sneaked on board before Vrenak left and in that case Vrenak would have had control of the rod. Unless Garak put another copy where it wouldn't have been destoyed. Either way, Garak is one scary dude.
mgallmachine 6 months ago
@mgallmachine Besides, with Garak's abilities he could have placed the shuttle in a "forceful" autopilot after a few minutes it has undocked, cutting all communications to high command and flooding the whole shuttle with neurazine gas at the same time. But that part is left to the audiences' interpretation.
DeftCrowMk3 7 months ago
@mgallmachine
I believe Garak said they would find the rod which "miraculously survived", meaning he placed it in an area where it wouldn't be destroyed.
As the other reply said, the entire meeting was secret. It's unlikely he made any logs or transmissions.
Draknfyre 7 months ago
What is this ep called?
RatedRKJerichO 7 months ago
@RatedRKJerichO "In the Pale Moonlight", Season 6, Episode 19. Fans argue over if it is either the greatest episode of any Trek series, or the very worst. Do you prefer a pure-as-the-driven-snow vision of humanity, or do you enjoy nuanced storytelling?
NotQuiteRight 7 months ago
Garak's finest hour
roush26 7 months ago 3
Good sci-fi/political intrigue episode. Terrible Star Trek episode. I both love and despise it.
JohnnyC133 7 months ago
@quantum460 No. He bitch slapped him.
Poseidon500 7 months ago
This episode was one of my favorites. Garak quite possibly is at his best in this. DS9 IMO had the most characters with the a lot depth to them.
skykn1ght78 7 months ago 5
Garak is smart as hell.
xbox644 7 months ago 8
Incredible acting.
krankenshaft 8 months ago
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nagash303 8 months ago
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nagash303 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Sisko and Garak saved the Federation by compromising what it stands for. I just love how dark and ironic this episode is. It's a great demonstration of the complexity and variability of morality, and that ultimately morality is a construct created to increase our quality and chances of survival, and will be changed or altered every now and then to meet that objective.
On a more serious note: "It's a FAAAAAAKE!"
Potato22Head 8 months ago
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Potato22Head 8 months ago
Best. Episode. Ever.
locutus9956 8 months ago 3
Throughout Brooks' monologue here, I've commented before that the glass makes an awesome literary device throughout the program. It helps articulate the need to take a break, seek refreshment in a war that is obviously draining Sisko's resolve. It symbolizes the triumphant victory of the unfolding of the plot as he raises the glass at 5:48, and finally, the bitter sum that Sisko has to swallow as a consequence of his actions. It does all of this so subtly that you hardly notice it in the scene.
linkingisnonsense 8 months ago 2
I love it so so much...
shibby996 8 months ago
One of the very best episodes of DS9 without a doubt.
Despite the fact that even though the plot deals with something that has absolutely massive ramifications for every single being in the Alpha Quadrant the real heart of the episode is about one man.
It manages to pull-off the balance between plot-development and character-development perfectly.
WorfSOM 8 months ago
Awesome!!!
robapr1 8 months ago
This is one of the best scenes with garak.
mappes1 8 months ago
Andrew Robinson deserves an Emmy for this performance.
onepcwhiz 8 months ago 4
The way I look at it morals are all fine and good when you have a full stomach,are nice and warm and safe.But when you're back is to the wall with you and everything you love about to be wiped out than you have to do what you got to do to survive.Doing a small bit of evil to defeat a much larger evil who is trying to kill you might be the only chance you have.
rtds9fan 8 months ago
it's a faaaaaaaake!
DhiscoStu 8 months ago 2
@DhiscoStu lol
omniexistus 1 month ago
This is one of my favorite DS9 episodes for a couple of reasons:
It breaks the fourth wall.
It shows that sometimes you have to sacrifice your principles in order to save lives.
Decieving potential allies wouldn't sit well with me at all. But I would do it, if only to keep people entrusted to me safe from harm, or at least safer.
millenniumf1138 8 months ago
@millenniumf1138
It doesn't break the fourth wall.
He's dictating a log. It's no more fourth wall-breaking than "Data's Day", which has Data narrating an entire day's log during the episode. Or the episode of Enterprise which has Phlox dictating a letter to his friend, which you hear thruout the episode.
Draknfyre 7 months ago
@Draknfyre In my mind, it did. Normally on Trek, the narrations are just 'there'. There's no expectations and nothing to them other than setting up the episode.
With this log, it's different. Sisko is looking directly at the viewer and explaining his actions as though he were looking for a moral guide of some kind. It breaks the fourth wall, to me, because Sisko's delivery feels like he's 'talking' to the viewer.
Of course, this is just how it struck me. You probably feel different.
millenniumf1138 6 months ago
@millenniumf1138
Of course it's meant to be directly to the viewer, but that's less breaking the fourth wall, and more literary exposition. Something that comes much closer to breaking the fourth wall is the end of TNG when Q says it's time to "end your trek through the stars.", and in First Contact when Zefram Cochrane said "So you guys are on some kind of star trek?"
Draknfyre 6 months ago
@Draknfyre I disagree, because breaking the fourth wall refers to a character addressing the audience, as though the "fourth wall", the one which we are viewing the action through, has temporarily been broken away and the character can see us. Both of your examples deal with characters talking to one another, not to the audience, and leans toward Easter Egg more than fourth wall breaking. This log entry however is implicitly directed at the audience, and so is a case of breaking the fourth wall.
millenniumf1138 6 months ago
@millenniumf1138
Breaking the fourth wall is also defined as an outside reference to the media the person is in. So referring to "Star Trek" while in the movie, especially when describing the main cast, is definitely breaking the fourth wall.
I will take your name meaning you are a Star Wars fan. If a Jedi were to meet with the Jedi Council, and one were to describe their battles as "These Star Wars", it would be a huge fourth-wall breaking moment.
Draknfyre 6 months ago
@Draknfyre Where did you hear that? It's never been defined as anything other than drawing attention to the fictionality of the universe or acknowledging the audience's presence. It's like when C-3PO pauses and says "How typical" toward the camera in The Empire Strikes Back.
Making an outside reference to the media a character is in is defined as a Shout Out, because it makes reference to something the viewers would recognize but most people outside the fanbase wouldn't.
millenniumf1138 6 months ago
@millenniumf1138
C-3PO talked to himself. He wasn't talking to the audience. How many times did he talk, and assume R2-D2 was next to him, but wasn't? He would comment on his partner absence. It wasn't necessarily to the audience, real people do that kind of thing, too, you know.
I would say referencing the show or movie's name in a way which attributes it to the main cast is pretty fourth wall-breaking.
I don't think you would need to be a fan to recognize a character saying "Star Trek".
Draknfyre 6 months ago
@Draknfyre Real people may do it, but it isn't 4th wall breaking because real life is, by definition, real.
3PO was breaking the 4th wall then, because he was addressing the audience, not anyone else, regardless of whether he thought R2 was next to him.
As I said, referencing the show or movie's name is a shout out if it's anything, not 4th wall breaking, because it isn't meant to, nor does it draw attention to, the fictionality of the universe. Look up fourth wall breaking on TVTropes.
millenniumf1138 6 months ago
@millenniumf1138
We will just have to agree to disagree then, because while we both know what breaking the fourth wall is (I never disputed your definition, I said the one I described applied also), we disagree on the degree of it.
While some people may find C-3PO's lines 4th wall breaking, in most situations I do not.
I find Sisko's log aimed at the audience while under the pretense of a log. I do not classify it the same as a character looking directly at the audience, and making quips.
Draknfyre 6 months ago
@Draknfyre No problem. Like I said, your opinion is different from mine, so if you don't see it my way, it's no big deal. I'm not so hard-headed that I'm going to beat your brain out trying to get my point across. :)
Keep on Trekkin'.
millenniumf1138 6 months ago
@millenniumf1138 Actually I believe that Sisko wasn't speaking to the audience but he was explaining to his superiors what had happened and why. Most of Star Trek narration are based on the logs of the Star Fleet Officers. What this episode did was instead of the narration used at the beginning to introduce the story, it was used to supplement the story where it's easier to use narration than show the actual scenes themselves. It makes the story telling more interesting in my opinion.
Ryooken 6 months ago
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grillinIstheLife 6 months ago
The only scene where the Federation admits how powerful the Romulan Empire is :D
UKGBjoker 8 months ago
@UKGBjoker wtf?
Freddran 8 months ago
Garak is a badass
Ransty101 8 months ago 4
There are things which have to be done!
kcirtap86patrick 8 months ago
It's a faaaake!
SwordsmanMercenary 9 months ago 2
it would've had more impact if the power in question were traditional good guys like klingons, as it stands they're just evil romulans so who cares that they were tricked into committing their state to a devastating war
zzxcvb98 9 months ago
This is what made DS9 one of my favorite series. The ridiculously long story arcs that span over several seasons. Also, DS9 showed us the much dark side of morality.
ST: TNG really didn't do that. Love DS9 forever!
MassEffectFan113 9 months ago 2
Ah, but can he live with it?
PokerJoker811 9 months ago
@PokerJoker811
I could live with that
pepelepew2006 8 months ago
Oh I remember this one. I was surprised. Very dark. Shows the weight a high-ranked officer has to put on his shoulders.
Energyone 9 months ago
0:31 So this is how Admiral Ackbar looks like in Star Trek :)
Selinja 9 months ago
Don't you hit Garak you asshole!!!!
sadailinikada86 9 months ago
"Computer, erase that ENTIRE personal log"
Don't need that coming back to bite me in the ass later.
capitalmindz 9 months ago 21
This may be the best scene in DS9 history.
Crymson1 9 months ago 5
Best DS9 episode in my humble opinion.
TexMurphy01 9 months ago 4
@TexMurphy01 Seconded.
KNS1996DFS 9 months ago
ITS A FAAAAAAAAKE!!!!!
gordon1258 9 months ago 29
Like how Sisco is at the end "I can live with it." Crosses his legs and goes I'm the ultimate bad ass, because I can live with it.
SunTrapped 10 months ago 6
I use to watch this show just to see Dax...So hot.
xBloodXGusherx 10 months ago 2
@xBloodXGusherx me too blood me too
daxlee23 10 months ago
2 Jem' Hadars voted -
milenent 10 months ago
Excelent episode, the writer needs an award
joe84au 10 months ago
Morality is for those that live in a blisful eutopia created and protected by the few who sometimes must sacrafic theirs.
PangeaSpreads 10 months ago
I *can* live wi