He said that the Tamil Tigers were "the first to perfect and develop" suicide bombing not that they invented it. Would be people listen to the words before jumping in with their own desire to find fault and thus illustrate how clever they are.
I hate to nitpik, but didn't slavery exist in many countries well before any of the texts of Nietzche and that he was a strong opponent of antisemetism. The theory of german ascendancy from the aryans was posited by a lutheran monk. Communism was developed to replace the religion of god with the religion of the state. You know now that I've thought about it, I'm not nitpicking, but this guy is talking out of his ass.
The reason materialistic atheism works as well as it has been is because materialism works, science works. You can speculate, as all of man has, from now til the end of time about the metaphysics and aesthetics or art, in the end science will continue creating tools that work and create tools that will take art into places it never had been before (think computer animation.)
So what we have in this episode is the continued attempt to define protesters as an ideology. Here it's done through abusing history. Unrelated challenges against Christianity (Nietzsche, Evolution, Communism) is falsely linked to Nazism. Also the work of historians such as Richard Steigman-Gall or Richard Carrier who have debunked some of the myths John Gray exploits here are defined as "atheistic world-view".
Richard Steigman-Gall showed in the book "Holy Reich" how the most important Nazi, such as Goebbels, were Christian. Martin Luther's "On the Jews and their Lies" served a central spot in the propaganda. The "final solution" is inspired directly by passages like 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16.
Hitler himself rejects evolution in Hitler's Table Talk, he was a Creationist.
Those who are familiar with Nietzsche's Übermench also knows it's an antithesis to Nazi ideology.
(1) Gray makes it clear that Nazi ideology was based on a pseudoscientific, profane bastardization of Nietzsche, Darwin etc. It's not relevant what Nietzsche wanted, what Darwin wrote, it's what the Nazis made of their philosophy and science. They also relied on the the Theosophical Society & others, who did the groundwork. (2) Care to share a historical source that the Holocaust was based on 1Thess2.14?
(3) Many Nazis were Christian, but the political system wasn't. That's important. There was no "old religion" in politics, only a national socialism. But to ensure national unity they also reached out with ancient Christian propaganda like Luther. And lo and behold: The Protestant churches were by far the greatest collaborators. But it was nothing more than propaganda, something that came in handy, but it was not the driving ideological force behind national socialist actions and crimes.
Im not suggesting current Christianity = Nazism, but to even begin to understand nazi antisemitism one have to understand the difference between the Christian culture then and Christianity now. Cultural nationalism is almost always nostalgic and conservative, but rarely intellectual. The contents of a nationalist movement boils down whatever the people are nostalgic about and recognize as their heritage. This movement have no coherent rational thought and it's neither scientific nor intellectual
According to Richard Steigman-Gall (Holy Reich) this was also the case with the nazi movement that had a complex relationship with the dominant local religion of the german people (Protestantism). Nationalistic protestantism is neither uncommon nor unique, you can find that match in many different now existing groups. What he explores specifically is the religious expressions of it's leaders in private. Also he looks at the propaganda. Rejecting the "volks" religion = fail.
Exactly. But it's wrong to connect this to the "Christian heritage", although it was important to many Germans *individually*. Nazism was part of secular world movements that in many regions overame the old feudal/divine rule, e.g. the GermanReich with the emperor as head of the (Protestant) churches. In fact, the cultural nationalism the Nazis "dug out" were based on corrupted pagan and quite esoteric quasi-beliefs, from the "Aryan" race to the Nibelungs to Heinrich I etc.. Not very Christian.
So yes, it was nostalgic and conservative, but not with regard to the Christian heritage. Some tried to combine all the aspects, but it was generally a national resurgence quite apart from the former Holy Roman Empire. And you're right about the nationalist traits of Protestantism. Protestants were openly collaborating with the Nazis, trying to proselytize Jews, supplied additional propaganda etc.. Those who didn't adhere to the new bastard volks-religion, were persecuted, incl. Christians.
But the Protestant churches didn't *run* the state. They only had one choice: run along and cooperate with this national quasi-pagan neo-volks-religious mob-ruled bastard or perish. It's also interesting that much of the German resistance was soundly rooted in Christianity, e.g. the White Rose and many of Stauffenberg's gang, who were from the old aristocracies of the Christian German empire.
One important thing to remember is that "Christianity" have never been a coherent belief system. The Nazi developed their own branch of Christianity that among other things tried to regroup German protestants and catholics, and also suggested Jesus was Aryan. The "Christian opposition" was unfortunately a minority.
I don't see where the Nazis created their "own branch" of Christianity. Any historical sources/documents? As far as I know they made deals with the churches, enforced collaboration etc..
And every opposition was a minority, but most of that opposition was based on Christian ethics.
Read up on German Christianity / Positive Christianity. I would suggest checking Holy Reich on that one as well as it's explains the nazi leaders relation to that branch.
"Christian Ethics" is in the eye of the beholder. It's everything from "love thy neighbor" to "kill all homosexuals" depending which pages you read and how you interpret it. There's something in the bible for everyone.
(1) Postive Christianity was just a smokescreen, part of the propaganda machine trying to sell National Socialism to devouter Christians. The Nazis new *exactly* that it would be hard to persuade them, so they came up with this. (2) The Protestant "German Christians" were a much more serious phenomenon, because they actually led some churches. And they worked in tandem with "standard" Protestants, many of whom founded societies for the proselytization of German Jews.
(3) Of course Christian ethics are in the eye of the beholder. But it should be fairly noted that the Christian Bible, the New Testament, doesn't call for killing homosexuals. The Gospels themselves don't have anything on the subject, neither has Jesus, unless it's the usual anti-Christian biased interpretations. "Killing homosexuals" on the contrary is from the Jewish Bible (Leviticus if I recall).
Even if some only paid lipservice to Christianity (Himmler probably), some were outright Christian, both officially and in their private writings. It could be that it was a facade, but if that was the case even some of the leaders fell for it.
Nazism was a conservative opposition against both socialism (like Soviet) the liberal "weak" democracies (like UK/US) and definitely opposed secularism. It's central belief system is that in the german people, it's symbols, it's character, and the belief in a strong leader. Yes, it borrowed ideas from everywhere, but it was not pagan. The dominant religion among the volk was ALWAYS Christianity and the antisemitism in particular was directly rooted in European Christian culture.
Wrong on many counts. (1) Nazism was itself socialism, the national German variant. Of course it opposed Soviet socialism and communism, which is why the NYTimes was such a big fan of Hitler at first. (2) It wasn't pagan, it was "quasi-pagan", because it was a profane amalgam. (3) Christianity was the dominant religion, but the state was *not* Christian. It was secular and the national socialist successor of feudal divine imperial rule.
(4) Never mistake Christian Anti-Judaism for Anti-Semitism. The former is e.g. from the Middle Ages, and is partially based on the legend that the Jews killed Jesus. The latter is modern, but not a continuation of AntiJudaism. It's an ideology that surfaced with the Age of Enlightenment, a time when secular thoughts & modern science & philosophy became prominent. Later it was especially based on non-religious ideas of race & supremacy by race. It has little to do with the old AntiJudaism.
That doesn't mean that both are incompatible, but there's no connection, no evident historical progression from Anti-Judaism to Anti-Semitism. That's a misconception that many people make.
My point was that Nazism isnt related to "atheism". Several leaders was either openly Christian or acted Christian for votes. Hitler's Table Talk (German version) and Mein Kampf is clear that Hitler himself wasn't atheist. Goebbels was catholic. Some nazi-expressions (like the holocaust, the ghetto, the Crystal Night etc) had direct Christian origins, such as Martin Luther's "On Jews and their Lies" that both played a central role in the Nazi propaganda in Nuremberg.
(1) Yes, but again: It was only propaganda, a re-interpretation of terms from different contexts in a new light for secular ideologies. But nowhere does this mean that Nazi antisemitism was modelled on Christian antijudaism. (2) If I remember correctly Carrier has shown the reception history of the TableTalk. It's noteworthy that the sources were rewritten to insinuate that Hitler was secular. The thought of him having been religious obviously didn't please some former Nazis after the war.
(3) Nazism is related to modern atheism in that both are a secular phenomenon. But it's of course wrong to say that atheism was the reason for Nazi crimes. They are like two branches on the tree of secularism, with a common root, but without a direct/causal connection.
I find that to be a false association. Nazism was both anti-secular and anti-democracy. The Nazi movement didn't believe in freedom of thought, expression or religion, but in a strong leader that could lead the German people. They simply fell back on what they could recognize in a time of crisis.
(and yes, I was referring to Carriers rework of the Table Talk, it's the American translation that make Hitler sound anti-Christian).
The Nazis borrowed here and there, also from some religious frameworks, but their own framework of national socialism was not religious. There are those who see the veneration of the Führer as a kind of völkisch ersatz religion, peppered with paganism, esoterics and anti-Judaist slogans, but it was not a religion or a cult: No liturgy, no temple, no deity, no priests. Like Soviet socialism it was a political, strictly secular and often anti-religious affair w/ disturbing secular-racist traits.
Nationalism isn't a written belief system or "planned" ideology like Marxism. Nationalism simply absorb already present thought, thus nationalism can contain extremely different content depending on who initiates the movement and where. Everything goes as long as it makes the people happy.
Right. That's why e.g. the German Christians you mentioned above were so eager to participate. A new national movement, and even religious groups jumped on the train. But that itself is no evidence that Nazism was a religious belief system. However, Nazism wasn't nationalism but national *socialism*, distinct & opposed to communism/Marxism etc., but still a socialist movement in its own right, essentially a secular movement, even if some religious groups were happy to come along for the ride.
The term "National Socialism" was invented by a swede. Socialism is not strictly secular (read Acts), and it's not the same as Marxism. As Richard Steigman-Gall did show, it was not a replacement for Christianity nor religion, but partially fueled by it. They held the firm belief that a proper German was a Christian and it was part due to their Christianity that they were superior to Judaism.
(1) You're right that socialism was fueled by Christianity, as was Humanism and imo also secularism. This is also what Gray says in his lecture. But mixing ancient source/origin and current state is false. Sure Christianity (and Jesus) are in some respect socialist, but that doesn't mean that modern socialism is non-secular or even (quasi-)religious. It's a movement born from the secular framework of modern societies and in mostways contradictory and opposed to oldschool religious "socialism".
Quote: "They held the firm belief that a proper German was a Christian and it was part due to their Christianity that they were superior to Judaism."
That was propaganda of the PositiveChristians and in some ways still the ideology of a few minor Christian groups in the world today. But you can't extrapolate the opinion of a minority group in NaziGermany onto the nation as a whole. The "Aryan superiority", esp. over the Jews, was based on secular-racial constructs: Antisemitism vs. AntiJudaism.
Hitler saw himself as an instrument of Divine Providence and hated the working class for its lack of reverence. It forged a new church, the Reischkirche, that absorbed all the Protestant Churches; ans the SS functiones as warrior-priests, with their own rituals and sacraments.
He said that the Tamil Tigers were "the first to perfect and develop" suicide bombing not that they invented it. Would be people listen to the words before jumping in with their own desire to find fault and thus illustrate how clever they are.
Borgia 1 year ago
We need to see Hitch Vs. Gray, one on one live debate. That would be special.
TheNicomacheanEthics 1 year ago
@TheNicomacheanEthics Totally. Bring it on.
freeeeeeedy 5 months ago
Comment removed
fourthirteen 2 years ago
@fourthirteen would you actually listen to what he says!
Borgia 1 year ago
I hate to nitpik, but didn't slavery exist in many countries well before any of the texts of Nietzche and that he was a strong opponent of antisemetism. The theory of german ascendancy from the aryans was posited by a lutheran monk. Communism was developed to replace the religion of god with the religion of the state. You know now that I've thought about it, I'm not nitpicking, but this guy is talking out of his ass.
TheLummer66 2 years ago
The reason materialistic atheism works as well as it has been is because materialism works, science works. You can speculate, as all of man has, from now til the end of time about the metaphysics and aesthetics or art, in the end science will continue creating tools that work and create tools that will take art into places it never had been before (think computer animation.)
dichotomyofone 2 years ago
So what we have in this episode is the continued attempt to define protesters as an ideology. Here it's done through abusing history. Unrelated challenges against Christianity (Nietzsche, Evolution, Communism) is falsely linked to Nazism. Also the work of historians such as Richard Steigman-Gall or Richard Carrier who have debunked some of the myths John Gray exploits here are defined as "atheistic world-view".
The plot thickens.
JemyM 2 years ago
Richard Steigman-Gall showed in the book "Holy Reich" how the most important Nazi, such as Goebbels, were Christian. Martin Luther's "On the Jews and their Lies" served a central spot in the propaganda. The "final solution" is inspired directly by passages like 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16.
Hitler himself rejects evolution in Hitler's Table Talk, he was a Creationist.
Those who are familiar with Nietzsche's Übermench also knows it's an antithesis to Nazi ideology.
JemyM 2 years ago
(1) Gray makes it clear that Nazi ideology was based on a pseudoscientific, profane bastardization of Nietzsche, Darwin etc. It's not relevant what Nietzsche wanted, what Darwin wrote, it's what the Nazis made of their philosophy and science. They also relied on the the Theosophical Society & others, who did the groundwork. (2) Care to share a historical source that the Holocaust was based on 1Thess2.14?
ImperatorAquila 2 years ago
(3) Many Nazis were Christian, but the political system wasn't. That's important. There was no "old religion" in politics, only a national socialism. But to ensure national unity they also reached out with ancient Christian propaganda like Luther. And lo and behold: The Protestant churches were by far the greatest collaborators. But it was nothing more than propaganda, something that came in handy, but it was not the driving ideological force behind national socialist actions and crimes.
ImperatorAquila 2 years ago
Im not suggesting current Christianity = Nazism, but to even begin to understand nazi antisemitism one have to understand the difference between the Christian culture then and Christianity now. Cultural nationalism is almost always nostalgic and conservative, but rarely intellectual. The contents of a nationalist movement boils down whatever the people are nostalgic about and recognize as their heritage. This movement have no coherent rational thought and it's neither scientific nor intellectual
JemyM 2 years ago
According to Richard Steigman-Gall (Holy Reich) this was also the case with the nazi movement that had a complex relationship with the dominant local religion of the german people (Protestantism). Nationalistic protestantism is neither uncommon nor unique, you can find that match in many different now existing groups. What he explores specifically is the religious expressions of it's leaders in private. Also he looks at the propaganda. Rejecting the "volks" religion = fail.
JemyM 2 years ago
Exactly. But it's wrong to connect this to the "Christian heritage", although it was important to many Germans *individually*. Nazism was part of secular world movements that in many regions overame the old feudal/divine rule, e.g. the GermanReich with the emperor as head of the (Protestant) churches. In fact, the cultural nationalism the Nazis "dug out" were based on corrupted pagan and quite esoteric quasi-beliefs, from the "Aryan" race to the Nibelungs to Heinrich I etc.. Not very Christian.
ImperatorAquila 2 years ago
So yes, it was nostalgic and conservative, but not with regard to the Christian heritage. Some tried to combine all the aspects, but it was generally a national resurgence quite apart from the former Holy Roman Empire. And you're right about the nationalist traits of Protestantism. Protestants were openly collaborating with the Nazis, trying to proselytize Jews, supplied additional propaganda etc.. Those who didn't adhere to the new bastard volks-religion, were persecuted, incl. Christians.
ImperatorAquila 2 years ago
But the Protestant churches didn't *run* the state. They only had one choice: run along and cooperate with this national quasi-pagan neo-volks-religious mob-ruled bastard or perish. It's also interesting that much of the German resistance was soundly rooted in Christianity, e.g. the White Rose and many of Stauffenberg's gang, who were from the old aristocracies of the Christian German empire.
ImperatorAquila 2 years ago
One important thing to remember is that "Christianity" have never been a coherent belief system. The Nazi developed their own branch of Christianity that among other things tried to regroup German protestants and catholics, and also suggested Jesus was Aryan. The "Christian opposition" was unfortunately a minority.
JemyM 2 years ago
I don't see where the Nazis created their "own branch" of Christianity. Any historical sources/documents? As far as I know they made deals with the churches, enforced collaboration etc..
And every opposition was a minority, but most of that opposition was based on Christian ethics.
ImperatorAquila 2 years ago
Read up on German Christianity / Positive Christianity. I would suggest checking Holy Reich on that one as well as it's explains the nazi leaders relation to that branch.
"Christian Ethics" is in the eye of the beholder. It's everything from "love thy neighbor" to "kill all homosexuals" depending which pages you read and how you interpret it. There's something in the bible for everyone.
JemyM 2 years ago
(1) Postive Christianity was just a smokescreen, part of the propaganda machine trying to sell National Socialism to devouter Christians. The Nazis new *exactly* that it would be hard to persuade them, so they came up with this. (2) The Protestant "German Christians" were a much more serious phenomenon, because they actually led some churches. And they worked in tandem with "standard" Protestants, many of whom founded societies for the proselytization of German Jews.
ImperatorAquila 2 years ago
(3) Of course Christian ethics are in the eye of the beholder. But it should be fairly noted that the Christian Bible, the New Testament, doesn't call for killing homosexuals. The Gospels themselves don't have anything on the subject, neither has Jesus, unless it's the usual anti-Christian biased interpretations. "Killing homosexuals" on the contrary is from the Jewish Bible (Leviticus if I recall).
ImperatorAquila 2 years ago
Even if some only paid lipservice to Christianity (Himmler probably), some were outright Christian, both officially and in their private writings. It could be that it was a facade, but if that was the case even some of the leaders fell for it.
JemyM 2 years ago
Nazism was a conservative opposition against both socialism (like Soviet) the liberal "weak" democracies (like UK/US) and definitely opposed secularism. It's central belief system is that in the german people, it's symbols, it's character, and the belief in a strong leader. Yes, it borrowed ideas from everywhere, but it was not pagan. The dominant religion among the volk was ALWAYS Christianity and the antisemitism in particular was directly rooted in European Christian culture.
JemyM 2 years ago
Wrong on many counts. (1) Nazism was itself socialism, the national German variant. Of course it opposed Soviet socialism and communism, which is why the NYTimes was such a big fan of Hitler at first. (2) It wasn't pagan, it was "quasi-pagan", because it was a profane amalgam. (3) Christianity was the dominant religion, but the state was *not* Christian. It was secular and the national socialist successor of feudal divine imperial rule.
ImperatorAquila 2 years ago
(4) Never mistake Christian Anti-Judaism for Anti-Semitism. The former is e.g. from the Middle Ages, and is partially based on the legend that the Jews killed Jesus. The latter is modern, but not a continuation of AntiJudaism. It's an ideology that surfaced with the Age of Enlightenment, a time when secular thoughts & modern science & philosophy became prominent. Later it was especially based on non-religious ideas of race & supremacy by race. It has little to do with the old AntiJudaism.
ImperatorAquila 2 years ago
That doesn't mean that both are incompatible, but there's no connection, no evident historical progression from Anti-Judaism to Anti-Semitism. That's a misconception that many people make.
ImperatorAquila 2 years ago
My point was that Nazism isnt related to "atheism". Several leaders was either openly Christian or acted Christian for votes. Hitler's Table Talk (German version) and Mein Kampf is clear that Hitler himself wasn't atheist. Goebbels was catholic. Some nazi-expressions (like the holocaust, the ghetto, the Crystal Night etc) had direct Christian origins, such as Martin Luther's "On Jews and their Lies" that both played a central role in the Nazi propaganda in Nuremberg.
JemyM 2 years ago
(1) Yes, but again: It was only propaganda, a re-interpretation of terms from different contexts in a new light for secular ideologies. But nowhere does this mean that Nazi antisemitism was modelled on Christian antijudaism. (2) If I remember correctly Carrier has shown the reception history of the TableTalk. It's noteworthy that the sources were rewritten to insinuate that Hitler was secular. The thought of him having been religious obviously didn't please some former Nazis after the war.
ImperatorAquila 2 years ago
(3) Nazism is related to modern atheism in that both are a secular phenomenon. But it's of course wrong to say that atheism was the reason for Nazi crimes. They are like two branches on the tree of secularism, with a common root, but without a direct/causal connection.
ImperatorAquila 2 years ago
I find that to be a false association. Nazism was both anti-secular and anti-democracy. The Nazi movement didn't believe in freedom of thought, expression or religion, but in a strong leader that could lead the German people. They simply fell back on what they could recognize in a time of crisis.
(and yes, I was referring to Carriers rework of the Table Talk, it's the American translation that make Hitler sound anti-Christian).
JemyM 2 years ago
The Nazis borrowed here and there, also from some religious frameworks, but their own framework of national socialism was not religious. There are those who see the veneration of the Führer as a kind of völkisch ersatz religion, peppered with paganism, esoterics and anti-Judaist slogans, but it was not a religion or a cult: No liturgy, no temple, no deity, no priests. Like Soviet socialism it was a political, strictly secular and often anti-religious affair w/ disturbing secular-racist traits.
ImperatorAquila 2 years ago
Nationalism isn't a written belief system or "planned" ideology like Marxism. Nationalism simply absorb already present thought, thus nationalism can contain extremely different content depending on who initiates the movement and where. Everything goes as long as it makes the people happy.
JemyM 2 years ago
Right. That's why e.g. the German Christians you mentioned above were so eager to participate. A new national movement, and even religious groups jumped on the train. But that itself is no evidence that Nazism was a religious belief system. However, Nazism wasn't nationalism but national *socialism*, distinct & opposed to communism/Marxism etc., but still a socialist movement in its own right, essentially a secular movement, even if some religious groups were happy to come along for the ride.
ImperatorAquila 2 years ago
The term "National Socialism" was invented by a swede. Socialism is not strictly secular (read Acts), and it's not the same as Marxism. As Richard Steigman-Gall did show, it was not a replacement for Christianity nor religion, but partially fueled by it. They held the firm belief that a proper German was a Christian and it was part due to their Christianity that they were superior to Judaism.
JemyM 2 years ago
(1) You're right that socialism was fueled by Christianity, as was Humanism and imo also secularism. This is also what Gray says in his lecture. But mixing ancient source/origin and current state is false. Sure Christianity (and Jesus) are in some respect socialist, but that doesn't mean that modern socialism is non-secular or even (quasi-)religious. It's a movement born from the secular framework of modern societies and in mostways contradictory and opposed to oldschool religious "socialism".
ImperatorAquila 2 years ago
Quote: "They held the firm belief that a proper German was a Christian and it was part due to their Christianity that they were superior to Judaism."
That was propaganda of the PositiveChristians and in some ways still the ideology of a few minor Christian groups in the world today. But you can't extrapolate the opinion of a minority group in NaziGermany onto the nation as a whole. The "Aryan superiority", esp. over the Jews, was based on secular-racial constructs: Antisemitism vs. AntiJudaism.
ImperatorAquila 2 years ago
Hitler saw himself as an instrument of Divine Providence and hated the working class for its lack of reverence. It forged a new church, the Reischkirche, that absorbed all the Protestant Churches; ans the SS functiones as warrior-priests, with their own rituals and sacraments.
pirbird14 2 years ago