BTP- Headlong Charge 01- Brettonian Knights vs Chaos Warriors

[vhan999]

knights of the real to the glory, for the lady!!!! fus roh dah!!!

love the chargs in brets kights :3

[zomgflyingcat111]

chaos are ridiculous tbh i dont see a way for any core unit to beat them... int 5 str 4 toughness 4... wep skill 5 u know... they are like freaking monsters and to top that they have a 4 up down to a 3 up with shields. the only thing that comes close to beating them is dryads and even then when hit back its a slaughter fest

[tomtom34b]

from the memory: in 7th edition, there would be 5 bretonians striking out of 3 ranks in wedge formation, thats 6 attacks (1 extra from champ) thats on average exactly 1 CW dead.(4+,3+,4+),

now 3 of the 4 CW strike back, 6 attacks(assuming the CW champ was slain)3+3+3+ makes exactly

0,88 dead knights or 1,037 if the CW champ survived.

Now who is claiming, charging chaos warriors headlong was "easy" in 7th edition and cavalry was nerfed?

[snowkitten99]

how is this a fair fight??

[heppellpot]

i dot understand the new rules (yes i know no so new but i am still stewing over them) it doesnt make sense a man charging in on a horse with a massive lance gets hit by a man with a sword.

likewise if a unit with swords or whatever hand weapons charge a block of spears (provided higher initiative) they hit first... doesnt make sense to me.

put it this way. 1 man with a 2 meter long stick and another with a 1 meter stick are fighting. who hits who first?

[cowpow16]

Warriors of chaos are beasts haha now just think mark of tzeenth and they get a 5 up ward or go khorne with halberds those are fun times also warrior champ needed to challenge

[zhorphorus]

always take off the bretonnians from the middle first - lancing rules for dem

[emilious14]

Does someone play Bretonnia at bluetable painting ? because I really want to see a battle report with bretonnia (:

[TheEagleman67]

didnt do the horses on the last attack

[granduelist]

The initiative system wrecks the battle system, period. I hope the new bretonnia book fixes it (when it comes out, I mean no bret update for 7th edition lol). Something like strikes first on the charge or hit automatically on the charge. Cos now that scary block of brets is no threat. Elves own here, high initiative low toughtness, maybe run them six of seven wide 3-4 deep (black guard perhaps)=lots of dead brets.

[nickilmejo]

the fact that the chaos warriors attack for the initiative before is absurd. The Brettonian Knights are armed with heavy lances, long at least 3 meters. They would not have the material space to strike for first, they would be struck before.

Is a stupid rule....

who loads you/he/she must strike for first. it is a natural thing

[TheWarhammerHobbyist]

They should decrease the cost for all cavalry now that they no longer use unit strenght, and most unit they charge are steadfast even thou u kill lots..

Seems like the" breaking the enemy on the charge" strategi is gone now.. to bad.. as it actually added some realism to the game.. so my solution would be to either decrease the cost of each cavalry model , so u could bring more.. or to make Barded warhorses cause 1x str 4 Impact hit when charging infantry or sumthing smaller than it self..

[Tiwaz1337]

Maybe Shawn should take up an army of Chaos Warriors - The Dark Gods seem to favour his rolling with them :-O

[lipstikjunkie]

Just a quick note, IIRC you removed the wrong bret knight in the 2nd rank of the 2nd test. With the lance formation, you remove the model in the center of the rank first, while you removed the one on the side. Not a big difference, but he would have gotten a normal attack with horse, not just supporting attack.

[ufogelfling1]

I play brets...and napoleonics...cav can manuever to hit enemy flank...its just geometry and timing...(target the unit prior with catapult trebuchet and long bows) always use combined arms! (rock paper sissors)...

[CJLinton]

@ufogelfling1 Its very hard to do a lot of manouvering with Brettonian Cavalry due to the lance formation... however supporting flank attacks by Mounted Yeomen would make all the difference to a Brettonian Cavalry charge... though I think the rules for initiative are wrong, on the first turn of combat the charging unit should attack first unless they are Monsterous.

[ufogelfling1]

bret knights either must do a formation change...or hit the enemy on the flanks!...

[reedster222]

Where is blue table painting in utah

[Siemiks]

What about the other parts of "the headlong charge"?

[ironforgepainting]

Do BLOOD KNIGHTS!

[Jesyce86]

Shawn the Warriors get a 6+ ward save aswell since they have hand wep + shield.

[Gatstein]

@Jesyce86

5+ if they use the points for the chaos champ to give them Mark of Tzeench instead.

[toro275]

so the only advantage on the charge is the charge bonus in combat res?? that kinda sux no?

[dcguitdrums]

You forgot horses on the last one :(

[Rividel]

the warriors only 3+ to begin with, (chaos 4+ sheild1) the sword and board only gives the perry save now not another +1. it would have dropped the warriors to a 5+ not a 4+ against the lance charge. it would have only applyed one addition wound to the warriors in the end is all tho. if im wrong on that throw me a page number for my referance. thanks

[jthuffma]

@10thAngel thanks for that... yeah that steadfast is killer. Basically they can't break through and they'll pay for it next round. OUCH.

[jrivko04]

Chaos Warriors should do 1.98 wounds to the knights.

Knights should do 1.76 wounds to the warriors.

Need parry save on warriors.

[SnEaKyGiTau]

have they worked out what unit get devastating charge? i think any cavalry that isn't fast cavalry should get it?

[jthuffma]

Like someone posted earlier... you really have to run this experiment with units of equal initiative. Obviously once you've lost casualties and don't have as many models to strike back with, you're probably going to lose, all things being equal. This is a better demonstration of how critical having higher initiative is than anything else. That said, love these uploads !

[10thAngel]

@jthuffma k, 9 brets charge 25 dwarfs warriors with great weapons. They kill about 4-5 on charge. And then get 11 str 5 hits back at them. While they kill 3-4 back. And then the dwarfs most likely will have more ranks then them. Becoming steadfast.

And then in the next turn, the brets will fail more due to their momentum is gone. and 11 str 6 attacks against.... 6 or so str 3 attacks >_> pewpw

[Skragg101]

Did your chaos warriors have handweapon and shields? if so you forgot the 6+ wardsave.

Also i know you were counting the units as equal but the thing to also remember is that the unit of Chaos warriors would probably be much larger.

Brets are not going to be able to hit with single units anymore to decimate those blocks, they will have to use multiple charges on single units. This is a problem for most Bret players since that requires some tactics and thought instead of just charging FTW.

[DeniedGuitarist]

On the last one where the knights killed 2. you didnt do the horses.

[cdkatt]

been wanting to get into fantasy for a while finally got the money for an army. Kinda sucks because i LOVE the look of the Brettonians but from this the knights look kinda crappy as far as how well they work and thats the reason i liked the Brettonians the knights look very cool.. So i don't think ill be playing fantasy or just have to look for something else i like the look of. I dont know.

[szlachcic22]

@cdkatt To be honest, if you like the look of the army then that should really be enough to warrant playing them. Knights are still good, they just can't break ranked infantry with a frontal charge, which is how it should be (unlike in previous editions). Combined charges and/or flank or rear attacks are what cavalry need to break units.

All cav Brets used be an extremely boring army to play IMO, now they look like they might actually require some skill on the part of the player.

[hellball5]

@cdkatt go with lizardmen high elves or skaven if you want a REALLY good army,

( i play skaven i know how good they are now they only used to be ok but now there a very good list )

[hellball5]

@cdkatt sorry when i said good i meant competitive

[MalusCalibur]

I have to admit I find it interesting that everyone makes fun of how heavy the rulebook is, and yet no one seems too bothered by it's obscene price.

I'm not going to get into the cavalry debate as I'm weary of 8th ed.

[thedonoftrek]

@MalusCalibur THIS!

[FireMark78]

@MalusCalibur Obscene? have you actually seen the book? 500+ pages in full color does not come cheap my friend. I think it's reasonably priced, of course I wish it was cheaper but I didn't feel cheated when I bought it. Now if only they would release a small rulebook so I don't have to carry that thing around lol.

[MalusCalibur]

@FireMark78

Yes, I consider £45 to be obscene for a rulebook. It doesn't need to be 500+ pages, and it doesn't need to be full colour, so using those as justification is a little weak. Even if I wanted to play 8th edition, I would not shell out that kind of money for the rules. I would wait, and buy the smaller, functional rulebook from eBay (since I'm not interested in the starter box either).

[NaelokQ]

Chaos (16 @ 3/3) deals 7 wounds (6.9 but round to 7). Brit Knights have got a 3+ save modified to a 4+, so they get 3.5 armour saved wounds. Prayer brings that down to an average of ~3.0 wounds.

The Brets hit back (7 @ 4+/3+) delivering an average of 2.3 wounds. Chaos Warriors are 3+ armour save modified to 5+, which brings it down to 1.5 wounds.

The horses throw 5 4+/5+ attacks that delivers a 0.825 wound that the Warriors save 66% of the time, which amounts to +0.54 wounds.

[NaelokQ]

@NaelokQ Bret Warriors will thus consistently take 3 wounds, while Chaos Warrior wounds average out to 2. It's thus usually going to be a clean draw assuming the Brets get +1 for the charge.

However, it should be noted that the Knights are going to be BUTCHERED by the Warriors in the second round of close combat as the same set of attacks is repeated and the Knights start to lose models that would fight before they can even attack.

The Warriors thus come out on top easily.

[HereticDuo]

someone has probably allready said this but wouldn't the chaos warriors get 5+save not 4+ since the knights used lance @ S5 (-2 to armor save)?.

Also i'd love to see you do a brettonian vs High elves 2000+ game where the high elves went cavaly heavy as i am tempted to beef up my dragon princes to 10 strong but dont want to spend the £7 per model if thay aren't worth it as a larger unit.

[TheShadowQuincy]

take a unit of like 20 bret knights in ranks of 5

[Noximous]

the 16 attacks from the chaos warriors (hitting on 3's) should hit 10.6 times. THen, Wounding on 3's should wound 7.1 times. then, when the bretonians get thier 3 up armor saves they should make 4.7 saves, so 2 should die but if they prayed 0.8 saves should be made, so on average, still, 2 should die, which would mean, 8 attacks back from the bretonians, hitting on 4's they should hit 4 times, then wounding on 3's they should wound 2.6 times, then with the chaos warrior saves, they would make

[Noximous]

@noximous actualy, think thats all wrong :D well.. mostly.. i aint a math nerd.. cant blame a guy for trying ^_^

[Noximous]

@Noximous buuuut, at any rate, with the horse attacks.. on average.. the bretonians SHOULD win.. i think..

[thekillingtomat]

@Noximous if it is as u wrote, then i think itshould be about even with the horse attacks

cus u wrote that the chaos warriors would get 2.6 wounds before they make their saves, while the bretonians had two wound after their saves

so on average would the chaos warriors lose one warrior after their saves, and maybe one more to the horse attacks (probably not)

so the result would be a draw/win for chaos, i guess

[SimurX]

You could also do a run of pure % like no dice rolls and show what would happen on average.

[sasjhwa]

The Brets were not as good as you made them because the Warriors were said to charge but you still gave the Brets the lance formation each time but the first. They only get it on the charge. Brets are my army and I would be very hesitant to do that charge unless it were Grail knights. The joy of the lance formation is that you can pull 2 units into the fight at the same time because of the narrow profile. Most units crumble under that power.

[sasjhwa]

@sasjhwa To continue: The weakness of the Bretonnians is that you almost HAVE to charge in with 2 lances in order to punch through a unit like that. I am very afraid of new units that will have 40-50 models. There will be no way to clear out the fighting ranks under the new rules so a knight unit will have to do massive casualties and the enemy will still be stubborn. Most armies knights are only support but not Brets who they are the main force.

[GhostDivisionAirsoft]

@sasjhwa exactly, although brettonian knights ( especially errants with errantry banner) can cause massive damge I will always try to charge 2 units in unless as you said they are grail knights but even then some support from mounted yeomen will do the trick, because the chaos warriors get to attack first we lose the massive hammer blow hit we got before.

[tmkerr]

You forgot the 6+ ward/parry save for the warriors.

[typoko]

@tmkerr it's pretty funky anyways. I don't know for sure what CW armor is but i get it's heavy armor. So they don't have 3+ save but they got 4+ and 6+ ward.

[tmkerr]

@typoko They have Chaos Armor which is 4+, 3+ with a shield. Shield+HW grants the 6+ parry save (ward save)

[CapSicarius]

@stethespaniard2 The rule is called something like step up or something and it represents the warrior behind stepping up if the warrior infront dies or cant stand the pressure, the ancient romans used that system :)

[stethespaniard2]

the new rules are stupid how is the second line of warriors supposed to attack through the first and no outnumbered anymore numbers are a huge part of a war if you're outnumbered you're more likely to run. plus cavalry should still hit first if charging

[Zemox92]

Okay i will do your maths ;D (BTW you forgott the knight champs +1A) Chaos Warriors: 16Attacks 10,3Hits 6,8Wounds 2,167failed AS (this could also be 2,17) 1,856 failed ward saves so 1,8 dead knights Knights if 7are alive (if 8 are alive) 8Attacks (9Attacks) 4Hits (4,5Hits) 2,67Wounds (3Wounds) 1,335dead chaos Warriors (1,5dead chaos warriors) Horses if 7are alive (if 8 are alive) 6attacks (7Attacks) 3Hits (3,5Hits) 1Wound (1,167Wounds) 0,167 Dead Chaos Warriors (0,27Dead Chaos Warriors)

[Athlon2736]

@Zemox92

DUUUuuuuddeee.... thank you... I knew he was forgotten somethin'

[falknerblitz]

@Zemox92 in addition warriors also have a 6+ parry save for hand weapon and shield. Knights are still good just can't tank units by themselves anymore - which ruins my cavalry army.

[TheKyleMcVay]

Did you ever get the warriors their 6+ ward parry save? Also I wonder how the halberds wouldve done in comparison.

[Number1GamerAsh]

Bret champion shawn lol...

[timburbage]

I thought that Chaos Warriors would have a 5+ save against S5.

Chaos Armour (4+ save) plus a shield (makes it 3+) and then a -2 modifier to make it 5+, with a 6+ parry save for HW and shield combo.

You didnt do this on the 2nd combat.

But basically chaos warriors rock in the new addition. :)

[popperlicious]

how about doing it with a unit with the same initiative

[Number1GamerAsh]

interesting bat rep guys! really like brets but took big hit in the new ed so im looking forward to more thanks a ton btp!

[PhonelessInAtl]

dont you take armor saves OR ward in the new edition? or am i mistaken?

[tmkerr]

@PhonelessInAtl It's armor save and ward or regen

[IGotTheMondays]

it seems to be that now cavalry are meant to be the hammer of a realistic battle where they are meant to charge either from the side or hopefully from the rear where they wont get attack or hit back by many attacks.