I understand his point very clearly. However, his anecdotal examples are actually some of the worst he's ever given. I'm not sure if he wasn't prepared enough or he just has an inaccurate view on doctors. If he had come up with a better example, he would say that the cancer patient happened to lie outside the bell curve, and that a statistical outlier could be explained by some other scientifically sound theory and not by God. But he went on to say that AMA is invincible and harbors idiots. Hmm
There's also the point to be made that if one thinks it appropriate to give credit to "God" for curing their supposedly "incurable" disease...then why not also give due to that same divine being for allowing one to become sick to begin with? It goes both ways. Why is it that only miracles get attributed to God, yet he isn't responsible for the deaths that happen every second of every day? That's not a very loving or gracious way to instill belief.
Guys, he was making hyperbole to support his joke. Sure, alot of pre-med students may not be good at physics or computational sciences and he probably could have phrased that alot better, but he was making comedy in the heat of the moment, he can't be perfect about how he says everything. Also, alot of pre-med students swap out of their major because they realize they took on something they could not handle or not be motivated to do, he could very well be talking about those people.
Tyson never made any statements about the average pre-med student or general physician population. Did your experience consist of randomly chosen repeated non-biased samplings of pre-med students? There is, however, statistical evidence of bad decisions made by the average U.S. physician with respect to the treatment of chronic, infectious, and cancer diseases. The problem with the practice of medicine in the U.S. is the frequency in which U.S. physicians fail to follow class I recommendations.
Even though I am a Mathematical physicist, I don't think the bashing of medical doctors in this video is fair. I'm sure most of those pre-med students that failed the intro physics classes did not go on to become medical doctors. I have taught lower division math courses, and in my experience the good pre-med students are the most motivated and some of the brightest.
@columbuschang I don't think Tyson was on a crusade to bash med students/doctors. His point is that it's crazy to believe in some invisible, magic force rather than thinking 3 people could be wrong.
@columbuschang Agreed, while I totally agree with the notion that every professions have its lot of incompetents (I did had a bad experience with an idiot doctor once), I don't think that 3 different opinions that all ended up being wrong necessarily means that all 3 doctors were incompetent... The will to live is often factored out by medicine and this alone can explain why so many terminal cancer patients eventually get better...
worst part is, if it was'nt for christians burning anyone with a brain alive technology would be thousands of years more advanced, cancer would be a vague memory, something from centuries ago.
so sure we can laugh like "hahaha you actually believe that book" but it is a serious issue.
I was a premed student. I scored A- in Physics 101 and 102, the two premed requirements. I'm now a Medical Student. Those students who didn't pass physics probably didn't get into Medical school either. If we had a way to measure professional competence in every field, I bet you you will find more competent doctors than competent Physicists. When Physicists make mistakes, they just erase the dry board and try again. When doctors make mistakes, people die and lawyers make money.
Yea, I'm sure most professions have such rare occurrences where supreme competence makes the difference between life and death, but not often as say, someone who works in the ER 70 hrs a week. There's just no comparison, period. That's why it takes years of training and hundreds of thousands of dollars to make doctors, compared to someone getting a Ph.D in Physics.
@Mrmoc7 Nonsense, a Phd in physics requires highly accurate and precise data. The systematic error is in parts per billions. No human endeavor today or in the past has the degree of certainty than physics except mathematical proofs.
Example, the repeated measurements taken to confirm the formation of a Bose-Einstein condensate at near zero degrees Kelvin.
From your statement, I can guess with a slightly greater than .50 probability that you're a medical student or a physician.
@Aneysi Get your facts straight. It was NASA engineers who predicted a piece of protective styrofoam of small mass and density impacting the front edge of Columbia's wing would disentegrate into many small fragments. Several interviewed university physicists calculated the impact force of such a styrofoam piece traveling at a comparable velocity would be enouph to damage the leading edge of Columbia's wing.
It was NASA and Morton Thiokol engineers who okayed Challenger's launch.
@Mrmoc7 I scored A+ in university physics. The physics taken by pre-med students is college physics. First, you're are referring to theoretical physics. Before an equation is accepted it must be tested and found to be consistent. The systematic degree of error is extremely small relative to decision errors made by physicians. It's the mathematical precision of physics that has enabled the devolopment of most modern medical diagnostic and treatment devices.
This is getting too far away from the original point I intended to make. Tyson conveniently and irresponsibly insinuates that every kid who declares a premed major in college/university ends up being a doctor. This is so far away from the truth. As far as U.S. Medical Schools are concerned, I'm not ashamed to say that my school probably isn't even in the top 75% (relatively), but still, over 6000 folks applied and only about 260 were offered admission.
@Mrmoc7 Listen more carefully, Tyson said " not all of them are smart. " Where in his speech does he say the entire population or the average premed students is not intelligent? Your statement on this partly supports Tyson's premise.
Trust me, it is relatively easier to get a Ph.D in Physics than to have a reputable U.S. Medical school put a White coat on you and call you doctor. Even with slightly above average grades, you can still get a Ph.D in Physics. With Medical school, it's a whole lot harder, not only because the competition is more fierce, but also because there's more at stake. Again, it's easier to erase a mathematical error on a blackboard than bring a dead patient back to life.
@Mrmoc7 I trust rigorous blocked randomized statistics based on controlled repeatable experiments. Again, your statement supports Tyson's premise. Your are assuming that the level of complexity and analytical problem solving skills required are equal between Physics and Medicine. Medical school is mostly memorization, the difficulty comes from the limitations of technology and misunderstanding of biological processes. Medicine is obsolete. The future is Molecular Biology and Biophysics.
@Mrmoc7 Why is it that more people tend to sway towards being a Dr. rather than a Physicist? Money my friend. Medical Dr.'s make a heck of a lot more than Physicist's even if that Physicist has a PH.D. So that explains why everyone makes a grab for the few available positions in the medical field not because one path is "easier" than the other. Also, we glorify everything medical on T.V (E.R., Nurse Jackie, House, etc). I don't expect we will see a show regarding physics any time soon.
Classes are a very small part of your PhD. A PhD in Physics and a Doctor of Medicine are two entirely different things and cannot be compared in such a way.
he said he taught students who became doctors and they all were not smart then how come they became doctors? wouldn't they have failed the class if they were dumb, which would prevent them from becoming doctors?
@goodbyebrov I'm a math grad student who has TAed a lot of calculus classes. You don't need to be that bright to pass. Definitely had premeds who weren't that smart and managed to barely eek out passing grades, and others failed outright (presumably they then took calculus again). I don't know how many of them then became doctors, but it seems to be a large fraction. Being smart is not a requirement for being a doctor (it certainly helps, hut it damn well isn't necessary.)
@JoshuaZelinsky Acceptance into medical school requires that applicants be good students. However being a good student doesn't necessarily mean you are a great thinker or problem solver. Mathematics is the only field of science that I know that strengthens analytical skills to a high degree. Since physics relies so heavily on mathematics beyond practical equations, physics graduates also strengthen their problem solving skills.
I am very disappointed in his apparent disregard of medical doctors. MDs need to be proficient in physics, chemistry, biology, statistics, psychology, sociology, geography. And that is just background to the massive amount of medical knowledge they need to have memorized. Oh he has failed lots of pre-med students, how many of those went on to medical school? passed medical school? If he knew how competitive med school is he would know they are not likely to continue with an F on record.
@greenbrad182 He said he taught students that went on to become doctors and they weren't all smart, as if their performance in ONE class can make him the judge of that. What is his criteria for determining how smart they are? Their grade. The audience member was specifically talking about failing premed students which is what Tyson is implying.
Yet again we have an astrophysicist attacking God.
I hate to keep bringing this point up, but at what point did Tyson obtain a degree in Theology? What basis does any of the ancedotal arguements brought forth have if they are not backed by the study of the field being discussed?
What, now all one has to do is have an opinion that is welcome in certain circles to be considered qualified to speak intelligently on a subject with 6000 years of history behind it?
Now you're mistaking opinion with expertise, deliberately I assume.
There's a difference between forming an opinion based on the evidence and deciding that you know it all from a single point of reference, as you bizarrely concluded. My point is that a person's opinion of god is not invalid just because they haven't studied theology for decades. If it was, you'd have no right to an opinion either.
Now you're just not making sense. If I go with 'opininion' (whatever that is), does that mean he's not allowed to express his opinions in front of people because he's not an 'expert' in the subject? Because if you're asserting that, then you have no right to one either and your entire argument is invalid.
I'm not even sure what your overall point is; are you saying that he's wrong, or that he's not entitled to an opinion?
"Now you're just not making sense. If I go with 'opininion' (whatever that is)"
Way to jump on the obvious typo-lol.
My point is simple. He is giving a lecture. I know it's hard to miss that fact, but from my basic understanding of what the word "lecture" means. "An exposition of a given subject delivered before an audience or a class, as for the purpose of instruction"
The key word being INSTRUCTION which entails the lecturer be knowledgable on the topic.
"You didn't answer the question. Is he wrong (which is YOUR opinion) or is he not entitled to put his opinion across (in which case neither are you)?"
It is my opinion that he IS wrong AND he is unqualified.
He can say whatever he wishes, but that gives no weight to what he says. IF he had stated that God was REAL, you would be tearing him down and accusing him of being incompetent based on the fact that he is in no position to know.
@commonsensrules He's in a position to say that his area of research has never lent any support to the idea of God, and that he personally finds it unlikely. Listen to everything Tyson has ever said (everything on YouTube at least). I have never found a single video where he claims that the Abrahamic God definitely doesn't exist. He always makes a point to say that it's an opinion, whether directly or by implication.
@commonsensrules how is Theologian a qualification? Other than being an expert on the literature of man made dogma?
A physicist does not simply read what some authority figure tells him is true. he experiments. A medical doctor looks at actual bodies and diseases. A carpenter will get his hands on real tools and real wood. Meanwhile the Theologist gains his qualification by...?
"how is Theologian a qualification? Other than being an expert on the literature of man made dogma?"
So i guess actual understanding of the subject matter has become irrelevant by modern atheistic reasoning?
No need to study the material, No need to try and sift out the truth in the sea of information. All one needs is an opinion to be an authority these days.
You do realize how fucking totally moronic that is? How inconceivably stupid that is?
@commonsensrules You didn't answer the question. That speaks volumes... and it was common sense :)
If there was a video on the topic of the toothfairy, and some guys had 'degrees' in toothfairyology, would you feel unqualified to comment on their discussion? Or would your common sense rule tell you, that their degree was based on made up rules with no basis in reality?
@commonsensrules Tyson isn't lecturing on theology so your analogies are false as well. Tyson comments are based on his understanding of probability theory. It was the observations of falling objects that led Newton to mathematically describe the motion of falling bodies.
The first video I watched of Tyson was him explaining black holes. It was very informing. Since then, it has gone down hill fast. The more videos I watch, the more it seems like all he's interested in is resurrecting superstition in order to kill it again. Why not just let it die and educate people on real physics? Let people believe whatever superstitions they want to, Tyson. Let it go. Don't waste your mind on this stuff. You only fuel the fire....
he isnt trashtalking doctors or calling them idiots. many doctors wouldnt even provide a prognosis, as that would often be the irresponsible thing to do. he was merely saying that prayer gets attributed as a reason for the cancer remission, rather than the doses of chemotherapy/radiation/medicine or human error. degrasse tyson is saying that religious people look to abstract ideas rather than real, empirical, scientific explanations to account for what happens in reality.
...and making generalizations about the intelligence (or lack thereof) of doctors in the US is a bit...too broad, cheap, and easy. I know only too well that many doctors in the US do not possess an adequate understanding of science and a rigorous grounding in its methods. But joking about how physicians aren't competent physicists or chemists is the same as joking that they aren't competent Shakespeareans or Keynesians. We're on the same team and sadly teams matter in this current climate.
I love Neil but I have to say I think he goes too far in this video. I agree with @chroniclerofthe70s' analysis and think Tyson ignores the statistical realities of imperfect diagnostics. Not that many doctors DON'T have an insufficient understanding of statistics or math in general, I just think he unfairly simplifies an extraordinarily complex problem. The multitudinous factors that influence tumor formation and metastasis are similar to the complex variables on the frontiers of cosmology.
Those ‘pre-med’ students who failed physics almost certainly did not get into med school. The cutthroat world of med school admissions means that most med students actually aced most of their undergrad courses, as well as their MCATs (which ensures that students who took degrees in, say, English, still have a firm grasp of the basic sciences). A med school that lets in students who failed basic college sciences courses would have the most laughable admissions standards in the country.
@drgrey87 "A med school that lets in students who failed basic college sciences courses would have the most laughable admissions standards in the country." Yes, I believe they are called "homeopathic" or "naturopathic" or "integrative" medical schools. Or...some other complete horseshit that most members of the public are too ignorant to identify as fundamentally insane. I bet they have a school near you!
If those 3 doctors used the best stats available to them at the time (e.g. over 90% of this sex/age group with this type of cancer in this location die within 6 months), and the patient greatly outlives that, it does not make the doctors idiots. It makes that patient an outlier. As treatment options get better and patients survive longer, the statistics and thus the prognostic predictions change accordingly. How else would you predict prognosis? Based on the last inspiring anecdote you heard?
@drgrey87 Statistics gives probabilities on populations, each patient's cancer molecular characteristics and unique genomic sequence and epigenetic state is what should be used to make a prognosis. Without this knowledge no physician should make a statement of certainty. Your example is flawed because only patients with cancers which were resistant to the bodies defenses are part of the sample. Physicians have no idea what the rates of cancer are in any population.
@scimath42 That really depends greatly on who the F students parents are and how generous their donations to the med school in question. I have seen this with my own eyes more than once.
Yeah, I have first hand experience with good curing cancer theory. I was just a kid. 6 or so. My dad had cancer. I prayed as crazy for him to get better. He died. That day I discovered, there is no god.
Or maybe he is somewhere, but he was just to busy dealing with a kid in communist country, when he's trying to enforce the bible into american laws.
@Daisy4Loka "More doctors failed than lawyers!!!!???? That's scary!"
Of course. Not surprising. Most doctors (G.P. general practitioners) are simply glorified technicians or mechanics. Lawyers have to argue their cases logically which means taking courses in formal logic. Physics comes naturally when you have a logical thinking mind. It's not just about memorizing and parroting facts and medical recipes.
I remember seeing an average IQ chart for various professions. MD's came in at 120. Not dumb by any means, but not exactly super bright either. Just think, for every genius doctor, there is some doctor with 100 IQ...might be the guy operating on your heart.
@Hopeful71 IQ tests are not an accurate means of determining an individuals intelligence. Many proven or well known geniuses most likely would not have scored well on an IQ test. That's not to say there are no brilliant doctors. However, I've shared classes with many pre-med students and have lectured and tutored both pre-med and physics students. Unfortunately, truly brilliant individuals are rare.
@chroniclerofthe70s It is certainly 1 variable in the equation tho. The IQ combined also with priorities and drive, common sense, and the range of natural abilities ( ie being suited for the career you choose). Einstein may have made a horrible automobile designer, and I certainly wouldn't trust George Washington Carver to remove my appendix.
@Polydynamix Einstein mastery of mechanics which includes fluid dynamics would probably have made Einstein a proficient automobile designer. Several studies dating back to the early 80s found most surgical operations were unnecessary and resulted in thousands of unnecessary deaths. Testing of surgical rooms throughout many U.S. hospitals revealed most harbour antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria.
@Polydynamix Carver wasn't the inventor of the peanut, fool. However, he would probably realize most appendectomies are unecessary. Secondly, appendectomies performed on individuals before the age of 20 have been associated with premature heart attacks. I experienced acute appendicitis twice as a child, the pain subsided within an hour. The removal of this vestigal lymphoid organ by doctors has far more to do with money than health.
The health care system in America is an Effing joke anyway! You can have the best doctors in the world but if you need treatment guess what, "Insurance please", are the first words you hear at the Hospital if you are ever taken in on emergency! LMFAO Your Health system is a FU**ING Joke America!
@BardocksSynphony Your question has no meaning since time itself was created alongside space and everything else at the instance of the big bang, there is no "before the big bang". Time is change in matter/energy.
@Trudde1337 You probably should have explained the difference between space time and absolute time to this person, because you know they're gonna disagree no matter what you say.
Have you ever considered that a wrong diagnose is not because the doctor was stupid or incapable but because the human body is so unbelievably complex that it is impossible to predict all cases and take into account every detail. The doctor's that gave that diagnose were not anymore stupid than newton for not taking into account quantum mechanics. If failure to predict how cancer behaves 100% of the time makes you stupid well i guess humanity is screwed cause we are all fucking idiots.
@markinrs A wrong diagnosis is more often the result of physicians failure to take the time to adequately test the patient. It takes time to adequately identify the molecular characteristics of cancer cells. Therefore, most scientist look down on making predictions or a diagnosis based on cancer cells which are known to be highly variable in their molecular characteristics. Often, money and not science is at the heart of such practices.
scientists have a deep fear for people that believe in god...a deep hatred and hostility, because of the actions of religious people ...but a wise scientist wouldnt dismiss a possibility such as the existence of god, simply because of some insane religious people's views and actions..neil and his colleagues suggest any possibility that comes into their heads, until a better idea comes along...yet the idea of god is rejected venomously.. why? because of hatred for religious twits
"Scientists have a deep fear for people that believe in god"
Oh... really? Which God? The Judeo-Christian one?
Do you have a deep fear of people who believe in Zeus? No? Why not?
Oh, because it's as plain as day to you that Zeus is mythical. Well, now you know how a scientist views the Judeo-Christian god. That's not fear, longfootbuddy. It's a simple head-shaking at deluded folks.
I suspect that more often than not, it is the patient who demands an estimate on how long he or she will live. So, the doctor gives one, but it is just that - an estimate. Everyone's body is different, and every cancer may be subtly different. There are many people suffering from cancer today and some of them will beat the odds (simply by the definition of "odds").
As a physician, the moment that you give a date for someones death is plain dumb. Of all the complex process that your body performs on a daily base, we have but a hint of knowledge about them, is irresponsible and fortune-teller like to say to a patient how much time he or she has, at least in the majority of diseases.
As as physician, the moment that you give a date for someones death is plain dumb. Of all the complex process that your body performs on a daily base, we have but a hint of knowledge about them, is irresponsible and fortune-teller like to say to a patient how much time he or she has, at least in the majority of diseases.
There are more explanations than just idiot doctors, but that is an acceptable explanation too. It is not the only explanation, and if I were a cancer survivor I really wouldn't want it continuously shoved in my face by some angry nihilist.
What I hate about this video is scientists who think they know God because they think they know the physical universe. They don't know what dark matter is, how can they even fathom something like God. Likewise, I have no respect for Christians who think that scientists don't know what they're talking about. They're so focused on bringing people down that they're not willing to learn from people who study what God has provided. The Universe. Hurts my Heart to see all this.
@Jakathera Hurts when faced with the truth. If all scientists on this planet, and everything pointed towards, there not being a *god* you would still claim they didnt know what they talked about. ignorance is what most religious people have in common. They refuse to see the facts, and always have the same offence. I dont think anything bad about you or other people who believe in god, im just tired of you never facing the truth.
@Krauz85 you can say the same for scientists who delve into religious matters as well... that's what I'm essentially trying to say, that both parties are at fault for prejudice and discrimination for one another's beliefs.
I went to the website......not impressed. I'm sure there's good stuff there but I don't the patience to look through everything. I couldn't even find a fucking search option. So either link the full video that's on your website or well.......I guess I'll just be less informed. Thanks for the short uploads, this man is awesome.
I love Neil but he really shouldn't be mocking the medical community. Doctors have to make really hard decisions every day that most physicists would know nothing about. You can't just tell everybody the best possible outcome and hope nothing bad happens to them. The way people take doctors for granted is frustrating.
@sakaklovas At the end of the day though, doctors have to make their best guess with the data they have. Even if they are more then completely capable and intelligent, they will still have to make guesses at points and sometimes they will be wrong.
I think the main point in here was that its easier to give credit to an invisible force, then to question your doctor's bad diagnosis.
@GhostInTheShell29: Agree, I mean doctors are limited in what they know. Overall, there was, thorugh my ER scribe job, only one or two times that I have thought a miracle happened. The other times well yeah it was just the doctor's incorrect assumption in his diagnosis of the specific situation.
@sakaklovas What Neil is saying is true, most pre-meds arent very smart. They absolutely hate science which is ironic that they want to study medicine. Yes doctors make "hard decisions" but I want the most intelligent and strong leader to make those choices not the person who is in it for the "big money."
@EvilGeniusCinema You are absolutely right, many pre-med students are just trying to get through their pre-reqs with the highest GPA possible. This is not necessarily their fault though. The expectations put on them are very high and they have to get good marks in ALL their courses, not just the one physics course that Neil is referring to. This makes it hard to focus on any one subject as they have to time manage so as to get the highest marks possible all while volunteering. Not easy.
@sakaklovas I agree, however pre-med doesn't exists. Most pre-med students major in Biology with a chemistry minor. Biology requires thousands of detailed facts to be memorized and dozens of principles to be understood. Coupling this with learning physics, mathematics, and chemistry can be a challenge. The art of Medicine has long been replaced by Molecular Biology and Biophysics yet the title still remains. The AMA has made sure it has stayed that way.
@EvilGeniusCinema I agree with you though and you do have a good point. So many applicants these days are just aiming for that high paying job and have no interest in dedicating themselves to medicine seriously and for the good of society. The same could also be said about physics students with no interest in research that are just trying to get a high paying engineering job for an oil company...
@sakaklovas I've known several physics students and pre-medical students. Every physics student I've known aspired to do research in some area of physics. Yet, every pre-medical student I've known told me they were pursuing a medical degree for the money. I've known many pre-med students who were great students. Being a great student doesn't mean your a great thinker. Einstein was not the greatest student but he was an exceptional creative thinker with a physics and mathematics background.
@smaru486 I agree. Most physicians these days are got between corporate greed and medical malpractice litigation. However, the average salary rate for a specialist ranges between $200,000 and $500,000 per year minus malpractice insurance. In my opinion, ER and primary care physicians are underpaid.
@EvilGeniusCinema Most of the pre-med students I've met were smart. However, there are two type of physicians today. Those that work for HMO's and those that will at some time work for HMO's. These profit organizations are run by management CEO's.. Physicians get paid based not on the quality of work but on the maximum quantity of patients the HMO can bill a patient's insurance company. I would prefer an honest doctor who knows his Cell Biology and the courage to ignore his boss.
@saamohod i dont get what being religious has to do with being afraid of death or afraid of life. why were you first afraid then when you got rid of religioun you weren't.
He is right about that. Medical doctors are THE most overrated people in society. No one questions a doctor, even though there a lot of idiots among them.
@saamohod bs you didnt intend that...atheists arent that smart--the inherent nihilism in your ideology and subsequent depression as a result thereof is a detriment to your brain development or sustenance such that you are incapable of irony. cheers....
@saamohod I totally agree about not fearing death. What I don't understand is how people can't find solace in the finite existence that is life. It ends. There is no way around it. Take comfort from that, not worry. Worry about the shit in your life, not *after* it.
LOL all conventional doctors do is prescribe stupid drugs and surgery. Conventional doctors have no understanding of nutrition, detoxification mechanisms, electromagnetic fields, exercise, and they don't understand how all the chemicals man is creating are poisoning us such as mercury fillings, fluoride, chlorine, MSG, aspartame, refined sugar, refined flour, refined sugar. Man NOT God has created degenerative disease. Read the book "Natural Cures They Don't Want You to Know About". Pray also!
@7TJBarba This post is a load of crap. I'll agree that the overabundance of refined flour and sugar (of any kind) in our foods is unhealthy, but most of your post is just nonsense. Electromagnetic Fields? Not enough iron in your body to notice. Aspartame? Tastes bad. MSG? It's a salt. Chlorine? Probably extended your life. Fluoride? Un-fluoridated water often contains more naturally occurring fluoride than fluoridated water. Detoxification? Eat fiber. Exercise? Already recommended.
@7TJBarba Wow, how incredibly scientific of you, any information at all to back that up or are you just pulling that information directly from the depths of your seemingly infinite chasms of bullshit. Well, forget modern medicine I'll just start praying...
That´s why I hate when a patient tells me that someone else told him his going to die in x years. Doctors CAN´T know for sure. It´s unethical to do so.
It's funny how AFTER the fact, all the doctors were "correct" in diagnosing the cancer, yet if you had to go to three different doctors then it's safe to say that you didn't believe the first two to begin with...
@AllknowingGuitarGuru The reason there are more pre-med students failing physics than pre-law is that most pre-law programs don't require physics. Now, why didn't the physics professor figure that out, if he's so damn smart... lol
@HoleDweller You're funny. The course in question is introductory physics. Not science 101, whatever you believe that to be. Matriculation into law programs don't require physics coursework. Most med school programs require introductory physics coursework. Non-science majors are generally not required to take a physics course to earn an undergraduate degree. Check your local 4 year university for the facts. And please don't waste my time with things that are easily researched with Google.
@AllknowingGuitarGuru I said A 101 science class, that is referring to physics, biology, or chemistry 101. Your basic bachelors requires a handful of credits from each of the major schools, distribution requirements. You should take a reading comprehension class as you are obviously lacking.
Required course work for med school matriculation: 1 yr of intermediate level intro to Biology (pre-requisite for the bio course = 1 year of gen chem w/ lab), 1 year of organic chem w/lab, 1 year of gen physics w/lab, 1 year of calc.
Required course work for law school matriculation: political science, philosophy, sociology, and history. Preference coursework: economics, business, math, and finance.
@AllknowingGuitarGuru You can't just look at the specific schools or majors, because they never list the core curriculum required by the university. Google won't do the work for you if you don't even have a clue what you are looking for.
@HoleDweller PART1: Columbia is a top notch Ivy League school, and should be representative. Let's have a look:
Columbia requires any of three courses listed site below. And they don't require physics.
college dot columbia dot edu/bulletin/core/science.php
Click on the link for the physics offered "Physics for Poets". And not that it states that it's not meet med school requirements. The courses science majors take are naturally more rigorous, because their getting a degree in science, duh!
@AllknowingGuitarGuru hey look, you finally found it and still act like a dick. You need to chill. Not all BS degrees have core classes that meet the science credit requirement. Crazy but true. I'd be ashamed to make any scientific claims without some physics under my belt. That's like claiming to be a mathematician and not understanding algebra. Biology requires chemistry, chemistry requires physics. Probably why so many people have been dying from bad drug combinations recently.:P
@HoleDweller Look Ass-Dweller, all accredited college programs have a science component but with varying levels of depth being require. That is the central argument: you're on a weak rhetorical footing when you equate the required physics education of doctors to those of attorneys. The elementary schema you draw up is stating the obvious but your conclusions lack rigorous cogitation and fail badly. You clearly haven't completed a collegiate education. Why don't work on that and then we'll talk.
@AllknowingGuitarGuru I only stated 2 conclusions: the fact that degrees require at least a 101 (strange that you don't know what a 101 course is) of some science and that you have trouble with reading comprehension (more obvious with every post). Everything else was just sarcasm.
I pointed out an error in your post, and you blew it out of proportion and made yourself look like an ass.Now you are just repeating what I posted earlier and trying to act like you already knew. You reek of bullshit.
@HoleDweller Shouldn't you be cleaning up the mess on aisle 5 at the Walmart? How's that working out for you? Now scram, your ignorance about collegiate education is making my brain itch.
@HoleDweller PART2: As state on the Columbia website:
"The science component is intended specifically to provide students with the opportunity to learn what kinds of questions are asked about nature, how hypotheses are tested against experimental or observational evidence, how results of tests are evaluated, and what knowledge has been accumulated about the workings of the natural world."
This translates into "Fluff Courses" which have little qualitative analysis going on.
@HoleDweller Just Google pre-reqs for Law School and Med School and stop making a complete idiot of yourself.
Non science majors never consider taking physics, because it's not part of the required coursework.
Law students generally have degrees in poly sci or history. Look up the graduation reqs for these majors. Calc, physics, chem and bio are NOT part of the requirements for these majors.
Please research the facts... you're looking like an idiot to anyone with college degree.
That and your "A diagnosis of terminal cancer?" thingy was, to be bluntly honest, of a very poor informative value. It lead me to think that you're not fully aware of how hard it is to take complex stuff it takes years to learn, and shrink it, smooth it, sugarcoat it, to render it accessible for a less scientific mind. How you have to ponder not only what you know, but what the "receptacle" knows. And to keep their interest. How much of a challenge all of this is. Too big to be downplayed.
@Meurglys33 "That and your "A diagnosis of terminal cancer?" thingy was, to be bluntly honest, of a very poor informative value." Valid
The problem is that there is a limit as to how far one may simplify a concept before the fundamental principles are lost. Cancer prognosis is based on probability. These prognosis are the product of thousands of outcomes as recorded over many years. This is why when the doctor renders his dx it's more of a probability, not a certainly. Each case is unique.
@AllknowingGuitarGuru "The problem is that there is a limit as to how far one may simplify a concept before the fundamental principles are lost."
Oh I agree, it's where the challenge is. Trim it down, keep it real, then see if you can trim it some more. Find the angle to present it, find a way for it to make sense for the masses. It's worthy of praises you know, because it is difficult.
"anyone with a medical degree"
I don't have one of those. One of my parent does. So I can fathom a bit.
@Meurglys33 Essentially, anyone with a medical degree, whether they are an oncologist or not, would understand that Tyson's anecdote was improper. He fundamentally misrepresented the diagnosis and prognosis protocol. He did the medical field a disservice by disseminating bad information on an important medical condition.
However, when Tyson spoke on the possibility of the earth being struck by Apophis, he explained it as a probability. The prognosis of cancer is also based on probability.
(cont'd) Let me know when Tyson wins one of the following awards and we'll talk. Until then, Tyson is just a television personality whose sole purpose in life is to provide pablum to a public poorly educated in science:
Crafoord Prize - Dannie Heineman Prize for Astrophysics - Lorentz Medal - Bruno Rossi Prize - Isaac Newton Medal, Pomeranchuk Prize - Enrico Fermi Award - Albert Einstein Medal - Oskar Klein Medal - American Institute of Physics' Science Writing Award - Kavli Prize
Tyson has reached the nadir of his career. And what notable scholarly work is he known for? He's a hack who's clearly out of his realm of expertise.
A diagnosis of terminal cancer? Let's say pancreatic ca: first you'd use patient hx and sxs, followed by markers, then imaging (CT), then fine needle aspiration bx, where a pathologist would render the definitive dx. Thus the dx is the result of a team of doctors. Multiply this by 3x.
Tyson is a show-boater with no legitimacy as a scientist.
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I understand his point very clearly. However, his anecdotal examples are actually some of the worst he's ever given. I'm not sure if he wasn't prepared enough or he just has an inaccurate view on doctors. If he had come up with a better example, he would say that the cancer patient happened to lie outside the bell curve, and that a statistical outlier could be explained by some other scientifically sound theory and not by God. But he went on to say that AMA is invincible and harbors idiots. Hmm
iamathometoday 14 hours ago
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iamathometoday 14 hours ago
There's also the point to be made that if one thinks it appropriate to give credit to "God" for curing their supposedly "incurable" disease...then why not also give due to that same divine being for allowing one to become sick to begin with? It goes both ways. Why is it that only miracles get attributed to God, yet he isn't responsible for the deaths that happen every second of every day? That's not a very loving or gracious way to instill belief.
petertwang 2 days ago
huh. i want to become a medical doctor... luckily i have only A's in physics classes.
TheGrannda 1 week ago
I tend to believe doctors are more likely to be idiotic... lol...
polyanthesis 1 week ago
i want to see Neil tyson do a standup comedy show
jvome 2 weeks ago
Thanks Neil for scaring the shit out of me. When I go to the hospital I will ask for the least idiotic doctor they have.
SilentMott 2 weeks ago 5
@SilentMott bwahahahaha i see no problem with that. cheers :)
mmmodafoca 2 weeks ago
27 doctors
INMATE2468 3 weeks ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I never liked this guy.
Lauxesa 1 month ago
@Lauxesa He's right on point whether you like him or not.
Pilaf1984 1 month ago 4
Guys, he was making hyperbole to support his joke. Sure, alot of pre-med students may not be good at physics or computational sciences and he probably could have phrased that alot better, but he was making comedy in the heat of the moment, he can't be perfect about how he says everything. Also, alot of pre-med students swap out of their major because they realize they took on something they could not handle or not be motivated to do, he could very well be talking about those people.
hubomba 1 month ago
Tyson never made any statements about the average pre-med student or general physician population. Did your experience consist of randomly chosen repeated non-biased samplings of pre-med students? There is, however, statistical evidence of bad decisions made by the average U.S. physician with respect to the treatment of chronic, infectious, and cancer diseases. The problem with the practice of medicine in the U.S. is the frequency in which U.S. physicians fail to follow class I recommendations.
chroniclerofthe70s 1 month ago
Even though I am a Mathematical physicist, I don't think the bashing of medical doctors in this video is fair. I'm sure most of those pre-med students that failed the intro physics classes did not go on to become medical doctors. I have taught lower division math courses, and in my experience the good pre-med students are the most motivated and some of the brightest.
columbuschang 1 month ago 18
@columbuschang I don't think Tyson was on a crusade to bash med students/doctors. His point is that it's crazy to believe in some invisible, magic force rather than thinking 3 people could be wrong.
theoldbat40 1 month ago
@columbuschang He's right about being one's own advocate in matters of human health though.
ElBarto1193 2 weeks ago
@columbuschang Agreed, while I totally agree with the notion that every professions have its lot of incompetents (I did had a bad experience with an idiot doctor once), I don't think that 3 different opinions that all ended up being wrong necessarily means that all 3 doctors were incompetent... The will to live is often factored out by medicine and this alone can explain why so many terminal cancer patients eventually get better...
kalajel 1 week ago
worst part is, if it was'nt for christians burning anyone with a brain alive technology would be thousands of years more advanced, cancer would be a vague memory, something from centuries ago.
so sure we can laugh like "hahaha you actually believe that book" but it is a serious issue.
DemoraX 1 month ago
I was a premed student. I scored A- in Physics 101 and 102, the two premed requirements. I'm now a Medical Student. Those students who didn't pass physics probably didn't get into Medical school either. If we had a way to measure professional competence in every field, I bet you you will find more competent doctors than competent Physicists. When Physicists make mistakes, they just erase the dry board and try again. When doctors make mistakes, people die and lawyers make money.
Mrmoc7 2 months ago
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Aneysi 2 months ago
@Aneysi
Yea, I'm sure most professions have such rare occurrences where supreme competence makes the difference between life and death, but not often as say, someone who works in the ER 70 hrs a week. There's just no comparison, period. That's why it takes years of training and hundreds of thousands of dollars to make doctors, compared to someone getting a Ph.D in Physics.
Mrmoc7 2 months ago
@Mrmoc7 Nonsense, a Phd in physics requires highly accurate and precise data. The systematic error is in parts per billions. No human endeavor today or in the past has the degree of certainty than physics except mathematical proofs.
Example, the repeated measurements taken to confirm the formation of a Bose-Einstein condensate at near zero degrees Kelvin.
From your statement, I can guess with a slightly greater than .50 probability that you're a medical student or a physician.
chroniclerofthe70s 2 months ago
@Aneysi Get your facts straight. It was NASA engineers who predicted a piece of protective styrofoam of small mass and density impacting the front edge of Columbia's wing would disentegrate into many small fragments. Several interviewed university physicists calculated the impact force of such a styrofoam piece traveling at a comparable velocity would be enouph to damage the leading edge of Columbia's wing.
It was NASA and Morton Thiokol engineers who okayed Challenger's launch.
chroniclerofthe70s 2 months ago
@Mrmoc7 I scored A+ in university physics. The physics taken by pre-med students is college physics. First, you're are referring to theoretical physics. Before an equation is accepted it must be tested and found to be consistent. The systematic degree of error is extremely small relative to decision errors made by physicians. It's the mathematical precision of physics that has enabled the devolopment of most modern medical diagnostic and treatment devices.
chroniclerofthe70s 2 months ago
@chroniclerofthe70s
This is getting too far away from the original point I intended to make. Tyson conveniently and irresponsibly insinuates that every kid who declares a premed major in college/university ends up being a doctor. This is so far away from the truth. As far as U.S. Medical Schools are concerned, I'm not ashamed to say that my school probably isn't even in the top 75% (relatively), but still, over 6000 folks applied and only about 260 were offered admission.
Mrmoc7 2 months ago
@Mrmoc7 Listen more carefully, Tyson said " not all of them are smart. " Where in his speech does he say the entire population or the average premed students is not intelligent? Your statement on this partly supports Tyson's premise.
chroniclerofthe70s 2 months ago
@chroniclerofthe70s
Trust me, it is relatively easier to get a Ph.D in Physics than to have a reputable U.S. Medical school put a White coat on you and call you doctor. Even with slightly above average grades, you can still get a Ph.D in Physics. With Medical school, it's a whole lot harder, not only because the competition is more fierce, but also because there's more at stake. Again, it's easier to erase a mathematical error on a blackboard than bring a dead patient back to life.
Mrmoc7 2 months ago
@Mrmoc7 I trust rigorous blocked randomized statistics based on controlled repeatable experiments. Again, your statement supports Tyson's premise. Your are assuming that the level of complexity and analytical problem solving skills required are equal between Physics and Medicine. Medical school is mostly memorization, the difficulty comes from the limitations of technology and misunderstanding of biological processes. Medicine is obsolete. The future is Molecular Biology and Biophysics.
chroniclerofthe70s 2 months ago
@Mrmoc7 Why is it that more people tend to sway towards being a Dr. rather than a Physicist? Money my friend. Medical Dr.'s make a heck of a lot more than Physicist's even if that Physicist has a PH.D. So that explains why everyone makes a grab for the few available positions in the medical field not because one path is "easier" than the other. Also, we glorify everything medical on T.V (E.R., Nurse Jackie, House, etc). I don't expect we will see a show regarding physics any time soon.
dsgb1981 2 months ago
@Mrmoc7
Classes are a very small part of your PhD. A PhD in Physics and a Doctor of Medicine are two entirely different things and cannot be compared in such a way.
baguazhang2 1 month ago
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Mrmoc7 2 months ago
@goodbyebrov you would think so, wouldn't you? Where I go to school, ( in Anerica, btw) to pass you just need to memorize what's on the test.
laurenseltzer 2 months ago
he said he taught students who became doctors and they all were not smart then how come they became doctors? wouldn't they have failed the class if they were dumb, which would prevent them from becoming doctors?
goodbyebrov 2 months ago
@goodbyebrov I'm a math grad student who has TAed a lot of calculus classes. You don't need to be that bright to pass. Definitely had premeds who weren't that smart and managed to barely eek out passing grades, and others failed outright (presumably they then took calculus again). I don't know how many of them then became doctors, but it seems to be a large fraction. Being smart is not a requirement for being a doctor (it certainly helps, hut it damn well isn't necessary.)
JoshuaZelinsky 2 months ago
@JoshuaZelinsky Acceptance into medical school requires that applicants be good students. However being a good student doesn't necessarily mean you are a great thinker or problem solver. Mathematics is the only field of science that I know that strengthens analytical skills to a high degree. Since physics relies so heavily on mathematics beyond practical equations, physics graduates also strengthen their problem solving skills.
chroniclerofthe70s 2 months ago
I am very disappointed in his apparent disregard of medical doctors. MDs need to be proficient in physics, chemistry, biology, statistics, psychology, sociology, geography. And that is just background to the massive amount of medical knowledge they need to have memorized. Oh he has failed lots of pre-med students, how many of those went on to medical school? passed medical school? If he knew how competitive med school is he would know they are not likely to continue with an F on record.
Uhlbelk 3 months ago
@Uhlbelk re-watch the video, that's not what he said.
greenbrad182 2 months ago
@greenbrad182 He said he taught students that went on to become doctors and they weren't all smart, as if their performance in ONE class can make him the judge of that. What is his criteria for determining how smart they are? Their grade. The audience member was specifically talking about failing premed students which is what Tyson is implying.
Uhlbelk 2 months ago
Yet again we have an astrophysicist attacking God.
I hate to keep bringing this point up, but at what point did Tyson obtain a degree in Theology? What basis does any of the ancedotal arguements brought forth have if they are not backed by the study of the field being discussed?
What, now all one has to do is have an opinion that is welcome in certain circles to be considered qualified to speak intelligently on a subject with 6000 years of history behind it?
LAME SHIT.
commonsensrules 4 months ago
@commonsensrules
You don't have to be a herpetologist to know that cobras are venomous.
If your car won't start and you decide that there must be something wrong with it, is that opinion wrong because you're not a trained mechanic?
Get a grip.
Gaz6231 4 months ago
@Gaz6231
"You don't have to be a herpetologist to know that cobras are venomous.
If your car won't start and you decide that there must be something wrong with it, is that opinion wrong because you're not a trained mechanic?"
By your fucked idea of rational i should be be able to to lectures on astrophysics because i know what a supernova is.
Or i should go to nasa and brief their scientists on newtonian physics because i have witnessed apples falling from trees.
wake up.
commonsensrules 4 months ago
@commonsensrules
Now you're mistaking opinion with expertise, deliberately I assume.
There's a difference between forming an opinion based on the evidence and deciding that you know it all from a single point of reference, as you bizarrely concluded. My point is that a person's opinion of god is not invalid just because they haven't studied theology for decades. If it was, you'd have no right to an opinion either.
Gaz6231 4 months ago
@Gaz6231
"Now you're mistaking opinion with expertise, deliberately I assume."
EXACTLY.
So does Mr.Tyson have an opininion or expertise on the subject he is discussing?
commonsensrules 4 months ago
@commonsensrules
Now you're just not making sense. If I go with 'opininion' (whatever that is), does that mean he's not allowed to express his opinions in front of people because he's not an 'expert' in the subject? Because if you're asserting that, then you have no right to one either and your entire argument is invalid.
I'm not even sure what your overall point is; are you saying that he's wrong, or that he's not entitled to an opinion?
Gaz6231 4 months ago
@Gaz6231
"Now you're just not making sense. If I go with 'opininion' (whatever that is)"
Way to jump on the obvious typo-lol.
My point is simple. He is giving a lecture. I know it's hard to miss that fact, but from my basic understanding of what the word "lecture" means. "An exposition of a given subject delivered before an audience or a class, as for the purpose of instruction"
The key word being INSTRUCTION which entails the lecturer be knowledgable on the topic.
cont..
commonsensrules 4 months ago
@Gaz6231
In order to be qualified to give a lecture, The speaker must be knowledgable in said subject material.
From what i understand, Tyson is an Astrophysicist, not a Theologian.
That said, How is Tyson qualified to give a Lecture on the merits of religion?
Is it really that fucking hard to understand? I don't think i could be any clearer.
He is using his station to deliver opinions on a subject he is unqualified to be an authority on.
Jesus, it's simple.
commonsensrules 4 months ago
@commonsensrules
You didn't answer the question. Is he wrong (which is YOUR opinion) or is he not entitled to put his opinion across (in which case neither are you)?
Also, if you watch the entire thing you'll notice that he covers more than just religion. This is more of an aside than a part of the lecture.
Gaz6231 4 months ago
@Gaz6231
"You didn't answer the question. Is he wrong (which is YOUR opinion) or is he not entitled to put his opinion across (in which case neither are you)?"
It is my opinion that he IS wrong AND he is unqualified.
He can say whatever he wishes, but that gives no weight to what he says. IF he had stated that God was REAL, you would be tearing him down and accusing him of being incompetent based on the fact that he is in no position to know.
cont....
commonsensrules 4 months ago
@Gaz6231
And yet, because he agrees with your ideology-you want to attribute weight to his words.
That is called being a hypocrite.
If he is in no position to know if God exists then by that same standard he is in no position to know that God doesn't exist either.
It's obvious that a simple concept like this eludes you or we wouldn't be argueing at this point.
He has an opinion, but a bum off the street deserves the same level of credence as Tyson on this subject.
commonsensrules 4 months ago
@commonsensrules
If he's in no position to say whether or not god exists, how can you know for sure that he's wrong?
BOOM LOGIC
Gaz6231 4 months ago
@commonsensrules He's in a position to say that his area of research has never lent any support to the idea of God, and that he personally finds it unlikely. Listen to everything Tyson has ever said (everything on YouTube at least). I have never found a single video where he claims that the Abrahamic God definitely doesn't exist. He always makes a point to say that it's an opinion, whether directly or by implication.
bjac6790 4 months ago
@commonsensrules how is Theologian a qualification? Other than being an expert on the literature of man made dogma?
A physicist does not simply read what some authority figure tells him is true. he experiments. A medical doctor looks at actual bodies and diseases. A carpenter will get his hands on real tools and real wood. Meanwhile the Theologist gains his qualification by...?
jimbobeire 4 months ago
@jimbobeire
"how is Theologian a qualification? Other than being an expert on the literature of man made dogma?"
So i guess actual understanding of the subject matter has become irrelevant by modern atheistic reasoning?
No need to study the material, No need to try and sift out the truth in the sea of information. All one needs is an opinion to be an authority these days.
You do realize how fucking totally moronic that is? How inconceivably stupid that is?
Don't you?
commonsensrules 4 months ago
@commonsensrules You didn't answer the question. That speaks volumes... and it was common sense :)
If there was a video on the topic of the toothfairy, and some guys had 'degrees' in toothfairyology, would you feel unqualified to comment on their discussion? Or would your common sense rule tell you, that their degree was based on made up rules with no basis in reality?
jimbobeire 4 months ago
@commonsensrules Tyson isn't lecturing on theology so your analogies are false as well. Tyson comments are based on his understanding of probability theory. It was the observations of falling objects that led Newton to mathematically describe the motion of falling bodies.
chroniclerofthe70s 4 months ago
2:36 "no" mwahahahahaha XD cracked
tironi333 5 months ago
The first video I watched of Tyson was him explaining black holes. It was very informing. Since then, it has gone down hill fast. The more videos I watch, the more it seems like all he's interested in is resurrecting superstition in order to kill it again. Why not just let it die and educate people on real physics? Let people believe whatever superstitions they want to, Tyson. Let it go. Don't waste your mind on this stuff. You only fuel the fire....
tpstrat14 5 months ago
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tpstrat14 5 months ago
sooo. . . . Pre-Law rocks! :D
CreedBalboa 5 months ago
Gawd cures cancer but hates amputees.... ;0(
wodaji 5 months ago 29
he isnt trashtalking doctors or calling them idiots. many doctors wouldnt even provide a prognosis, as that would often be the irresponsible thing to do. he was merely saying that prayer gets attributed as a reason for the cancer remission, rather than the doses of chemotherapy/radiation/medicine or human error. degrasse tyson is saying that religious people look to abstract ideas rather than real, empirical, scientific explanations to account for what happens in reality.
there.
sinprelic 5 months ago
...and making generalizations about the intelligence (or lack thereof) of doctors in the US is a bit...too broad, cheap, and easy. I know only too well that many doctors in the US do not possess an adequate understanding of science and a rigorous grounding in its methods. But joking about how physicians aren't competent physicists or chemists is the same as joking that they aren't competent Shakespeareans or Keynesians. We're on the same team and sadly teams matter in this current climate.
sleepcity 5 months ago
I love Neil but I have to say I think he goes too far in this video. I agree with @chroniclerofthe70s' analysis and think Tyson ignores the statistical realities of imperfect diagnostics. Not that many doctors DON'T have an insufficient understanding of statistics or math in general, I just think he unfairly simplifies an extraordinarily complex problem. The multitudinous factors that influence tumor formation and metastasis are similar to the complex variables on the frontiers of cosmology.
sleepcity 5 months ago
Those ‘pre-med’ students who failed physics almost certainly did not get into med school. The cutthroat world of med school admissions means that most med students actually aced most of their undergrad courses, as well as their MCATs (which ensures that students who took degrees in, say, English, still have a firm grasp of the basic sciences). A med school that lets in students who failed basic college sciences courses would have the most laughable admissions standards in the country.
drgrey87 5 months ago
@drgrey87 "A med school that lets in students who failed basic college sciences courses would have the most laughable admissions standards in the country." Yes, I believe they are called "homeopathic" or "naturopathic" or "integrative" medical schools. Or...some other complete horseshit that most members of the public are too ignorant to identify as fundamentally insane. I bet they have a school near you!
sleepcity 5 months ago
If those 3 doctors used the best stats available to them at the time (e.g. over 90% of this sex/age group with this type of cancer in this location die within 6 months), and the patient greatly outlives that, it does not make the doctors idiots. It makes that patient an outlier. As treatment options get better and patients survive longer, the statistics and thus the prognostic predictions change accordingly. How else would you predict prognosis? Based on the last inspiring anecdote you heard?
drgrey87 5 months ago 2
@drgrey87 Statistics gives probabilities on populations, each patient's cancer molecular characteristics and unique genomic sequence and epigenetic state is what should be used to make a prognosis. Without this knowledge no physician should make a statement of certainty. Your example is flawed because only patients with cancers which were resistant to the bodies defenses are part of the sample. Physicians have no idea what the rates of cancer are in any population.
chroniclerofthe70s 5 months ago
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@drgrey87 Excellent comment. Thank you.
sleepcity 5 months ago
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pnickel000 6 months ago
Not at premed students become doctors; in fact, MOST DO NOT.
The vast majority become nurses, science teachers, or other careers because of the tough standards of medical school entrance requirements.
Face it, Neil's just angry House is a doctor and is a genius.
pnickel000 6 months ago
@pnickel000 ....House is a fictional character on a TV show. He is not real.
skeletonmom 5 months ago
derp, the kids who fail physics 101 never end up doctors. no respectable med school admits anyone with an F.
scimath42 6 months ago
@scimath42 That really depends greatly on who the F students parents are and how generous their donations to the med school in question. I have seen this with my own eyes more than once.
Polydynamix 6 months ago
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scimath42 6 months ago
Yeah, I have first hand experience with good curing cancer theory. I was just a kid. 6 or so. My dad had cancer. I prayed as crazy for him to get better. He died. That day I discovered, there is no god.
Or maybe he is somewhere, but he was just to busy dealing with a kid in communist country, when he's trying to enforce the bible into american laws.
aandreya 7 months ago 2
From the horror stories told about how frantic an internship is, I'm surprised interns learn anything, never mind medical school.
GoblinXXX 7 months ago
More doctors failed than lawyers!!!!???? That's scary!
Daisy4Loka 7 months ago
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@Daisy4Loka "More doctors failed than lawyers!!!!???? That's scary!"
Of course. Not surprising. Most doctors (G.P. general practitioners) are simply glorified technicians or mechanics. Lawyers have to argue their cases logically which means taking courses in formal logic. Physics comes naturally when you have a logical thinking mind. It's not just about memorizing and parroting facts and medical recipes.
technatezin 5 months ago
Strange....I have a doctorate in Pharmacy and physics was by far the hardest course I took during my undergraduate Chemistry degree.
ssallen1s 7 months ago
I remember seeing an average IQ chart for various professions. MD's came in at 120. Not dumb by any means, but not exactly super bright either. Just think, for every genius doctor, there is some doctor with 100 IQ...might be the guy operating on your heart.
Of course IQ is not skill, but still......
Hopeful71 8 months ago
@Hopeful71 As George Carlin said, "Think about how dumb the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are dumber than THAT!"
GoblinXXX 7 months ago 20
@Hopeful71 IQ tests are not an accurate means of determining an individuals intelligence. Many proven or well known geniuses most likely would not have scored well on an IQ test. That's not to say there are no brilliant doctors. However, I've shared classes with many pre-med students and have lectured and tutored both pre-med and physics students. Unfortunately, truly brilliant individuals are rare.
chroniclerofthe70s 6 months ago
@chroniclerofthe70s It is certainly 1 variable in the equation tho. The IQ combined also with priorities and drive, common sense, and the range of natural abilities ( ie being suited for the career you choose). Einstein may have made a horrible automobile designer, and I certainly wouldn't trust George Washington Carver to remove my appendix.
Polydynamix 6 months ago
@Polydynamix Einstein mastery of mechanics which includes fluid dynamics would probably have made Einstein a proficient automobile designer. Several studies dating back to the early 80s found most surgical operations were unnecessary and resulted in thousands of unnecessary deaths. Testing of surgical rooms throughout many U.S. hospitals revealed most harbour antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria.
chroniclerofthe70s 5 months ago
@chroniclerofthe70s And this qualifies the inventor of the peanut to remove an appendix how?
Polydynamix 5 months ago
@Polydynamix Carver wasn't the inventor of the peanut, fool. However, he would probably realize most appendectomies are unecessary. Secondly, appendectomies performed on individuals before the age of 20 have been associated with premature heart attacks. I experienced acute appendicitis twice as a child, the pain subsided within an hour. The removal of this vestigal lymphoid organ by doctors has far more to do with money than health.
chroniclerofthe70s 5 months ago
The health care system in America is an Effing joke anyway! You can have the best doctors in the world but if you need treatment guess what, "Insurance please", are the first words you hear at the Hospital if you are ever taken in on emergency! LMFAO Your Health system is a FU**ING Joke America!
deeppurple28 8 months ago 8
@deeppurple28 Yeah, just watch Sicko by Michael Moore.
glazenbol 2 months ago
what happened before the big bang.. was god just sitting around for infinite amounts of years?
BardocksSynphony 9 months ago
@BardocksSynphony Your question has no meaning since time itself was created alongside space and everything else at the instance of the big bang, there is no "before the big bang". Time is change in matter/energy.
Trudde1337 8 months ago
@Trudde1337 You probably should have explained the difference between space time and absolute time to this person, because you know they're gonna disagree no matter what you say.
ShaolinIronLeg 7 months ago
Have you ever considered that a wrong diagnose is not because the doctor was stupid or incapable but because the human body is so unbelievably complex that it is impossible to predict all cases and take into account every detail. The doctor's that gave that diagnose were not anymore stupid than newton for not taking into account quantum mechanics. If failure to predict how cancer behaves 100% of the time makes you stupid well i guess humanity is screwed cause we are all fucking idiots.
markinrs 9 months ago
@markinrs A wrong diagnosis is more often the result of physicians failure to take the time to adequately test the patient. It takes time to adequately identify the molecular characteristics of cancer cells. Therefore, most scientist look down on making predictions or a diagnosis based on cancer cells which are known to be highly variable in their molecular characteristics. Often, money and not science is at the heart of such practices.
chroniclerofthe70s 9 months ago
scientists have a deep fear for people that believe in god...a deep hatred and hostility, because of the actions of religious people ...but a wise scientist wouldnt dismiss a possibility such as the existence of god, simply because of some insane religious people's views and actions..neil and his colleagues suggest any possibility that comes into their heads, until a better idea comes along...yet the idea of god is rejected venomously.. why? because of hatred for religious twits
longfootbuddy 9 months ago
@longfootbuddy
"Scientists have a deep fear for people that believe in god"
Oh... really? Which God? The Judeo-Christian one?
Do you have a deep fear of people who believe in Zeus? No? Why not?
Oh, because it's as plain as day to you that Zeus is mythical. Well, now you know how a scientist views the Judeo-Christian god. That's not fear, longfootbuddy. It's a simple head-shaking at deluded folks.
taicleis 9 months ago
@taicleis no, its fear of delusional religious tyrants that persecuted scientists for most of history
longfootbuddy 9 months ago
My mother got a diagnosis for no more than one year of living and this diagnosis was given for the next 9 years until she finally past away.
It was terrible. She could not plan anything in her life except to prepare for her death 9 long years.
nadoeloiskat 9 months ago
I suspect that more often than not, it is the patient who demands an estimate on how long he or she will live. So, the doctor gives one, but it is just that - an estimate. Everyone's body is different, and every cancer may be subtly different. There are many people suffering from cancer today and some of them will beat the odds (simply by the definition of "odds").
ig0ro 9 months ago
Can the religious freaks get off this video's comments?
scarecrovv 9 months ago 3
take that doctors! someone had to bring them down a peg!... although they are still making wayy loads of money :(.
mmmodafoca 9 months ago
This guy is reallty good arguing against religion, but where's the science
DavidsProductions 10 months ago
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As a physician, the moment that you give a date for someones death is plain dumb. Of all the complex process that your body performs on a daily base, we have but a hint of knowledge about them, is irresponsible and fortune-teller like to say to a patient how much time he or she has, at least in the majority of diseases.
intestinomedicino 10 months ago
As as physician, the moment that you give a date for someones death is plain dumb. Of all the complex process that your body performs on a daily base, we have but a hint of knowledge about them, is irresponsible and fortune-teller like to say to a patient how much time he or she has, at least in the majority of diseases.
intestinomedicino 10 months ago 41
There are more explanations than just idiot doctors, but that is an acceptable explanation too. It is not the only explanation, and if I were a cancer survivor I really wouldn't want it continuously shoved in my face by some angry nihilist.
supergsx 10 months ago
What I hate about this video is scientists who think they know God because they think they know the physical universe. They don't know what dark matter is, how can they even fathom something like God. Likewise, I have no respect for Christians who think that scientists don't know what they're talking about. They're so focused on bringing people down that they're not willing to learn from people who study what God has provided. The Universe. Hurts my Heart to see all this.
Jakathera 11 months ago
@Jakathera Hurts when faced with the truth. If all scientists on this planet, and everything pointed towards, there not being a *god* you would still claim they didnt know what they talked about. ignorance is what most religious people have in common. They refuse to see the facts, and always have the same offence. I dont think anything bad about you or other people who believe in god, im just tired of you never facing the truth.
Krauz85 11 months ago
@Krauz85 you can say the same for scientists who delve into religious matters as well... that's what I'm essentially trying to say, that both parties are at fault for prejudice and discrimination for one another's beliefs.
Jakathera 10 months ago
@Jakathera My thoughts excactly.
MrAlexGLee 10 months ago
I went to the website......not impressed. I'm sure there's good stuff there but I don't the patience to look through everything. I couldn't even find a fucking search option. So either link the full video that's on your website or well.......I guess I'll just be less informed. Thanks for the short uploads, this man is awesome.
Thulgore 11 months ago
I love Neil but he really shouldn't be mocking the medical community. Doctors have to make really hard decisions every day that most physicists would know nothing about. You can't just tell everybody the best possible outcome and hope nothing bad happens to them. The way people take doctors for granted is frustrating.
sakaklovas 1 year ago
@sakaklovas At the end of the day though, doctors have to make their best guess with the data they have. Even if they are more then completely capable and intelligent, they will still have to make guesses at points and sometimes they will be wrong.
I think the main point in here was that its easier to give credit to an invisible force, then to question your doctor's bad diagnosis.
GhostInTheShell29 1 year ago
@GhostInTheShell29: Agree, I mean doctors are limited in what they know. Overall, there was, thorugh my ER scribe job, only one or two times that I have thought a miracle happened. The other times well yeah it was just the doctor's incorrect assumption in his diagnosis of the specific situation.
RockyBalboa211 11 months ago
@sakaklovas What Neil is saying is true, most pre-meds arent very smart. They absolutely hate science which is ironic that they want to study medicine. Yes doctors make "hard decisions" but I want the most intelligent and strong leader to make those choices not the person who is in it for the "big money."
EvilGeniusCinema 11 months ago
@EvilGeniusCinema You are absolutely right, many pre-med students are just trying to get through their pre-reqs with the highest GPA possible. This is not necessarily their fault though. The expectations put on them are very high and they have to get good marks in ALL their courses, not just the one physics course that Neil is referring to. This makes it hard to focus on any one subject as they have to time manage so as to get the highest marks possible all while volunteering. Not easy.
sakaklovas 11 months ago
@sakaklovas I agree, however pre-med doesn't exists. Most pre-med students major in Biology with a chemistry minor. Biology requires thousands of detailed facts to be memorized and dozens of principles to be understood. Coupling this with learning physics, mathematics, and chemistry can be a challenge. The art of Medicine has long been replaced by Molecular Biology and Biophysics yet the title still remains. The AMA has made sure it has stayed that way.
chroniclerofthe70s 9 months ago
@EvilGeniusCinema I agree with you though and you do have a good point. So many applicants these days are just aiming for that high paying job and have no interest in dedicating themselves to medicine seriously and for the good of society. The same could also be said about physics students with no interest in research that are just trying to get a high paying engineering job for an oil company...
sakaklovas 11 months ago
@sakaklovas I've known several physics students and pre-medical students. Every physics student I've known aspired to do research in some area of physics. Yet, every pre-medical student I've known told me they were pursuing a medical degree for the money. I've known many pre-med students who were great students. Being a great student doesn't mean your a great thinker. Einstein was not the greatest student but he was an exceptional creative thinker with a physics and mathematics background.
chroniclerofthe70s 9 months ago
@chroniclerofthe70s you'd have to be an idiot to go into medicine for money.
smaru486 9 months ago
@smaru486 I agree. Most physicians these days are got between corporate greed and medical malpractice litigation. However, the average salary rate for a specialist ranges between $200,000 and $500,000 per year minus malpractice insurance. In my opinion, ER and primary care physicians are underpaid.
chroniclerofthe70s 9 months ago
@EvilGeniusCinema Most of the pre-med students I've met were smart. However, there are two type of physicians today. Those that work for HMO's and those that will at some time work for HMO's. These profit organizations are run by management CEO's.. Physicians get paid based not on the quality of work but on the maximum quantity of patients the HMO can bill a patient's insurance company. I would prefer an honest doctor who knows his Cell Biology and the courage to ignore his boss.
chroniclerofthe70s 9 months ago
Atheism was a revelation in my life. I'm not afraid of death anymore. Neither am I afraid of life. The truth made me truly free.
saamohod 1 year ago 195
@saamohod Ironically it was Jesus who said if you know the truth, the truth will set you free. Read the Power of Now - Eckhart Tolle
Boomer8080 1 year ago
@saamohod why were you afraid of death before?
Trouterr 11 months ago
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@Trouterr "why were you afraid of death before? "
Because I thought that after death I might end up in a place I wouldn't particularly like ))
saamohod 11 months ago
@Trouterr
I dunno about him, but before losing my faith I was afraid of ending up on the wrong side of god's rules.
Havenfall 11 months ago
@saamohod i dont get what being religious has to do with being afraid of death or afraid of life. why were you first afraid then when you got rid of religioun you weren't.
Trouterr 11 months ago
@saamohod Hallelujah! He has seen the light! Amen brother. Jaysus be praised!
kossmikham 9 months ago
He is right about that. Medical doctors are THE most overrated people in society. No one questions a doctor, even though there a lot of idiots among them.
kossmikham 9 months ago
@saamohod weel said!
jm3083 6 months ago
@jm3083 well Said lol
jm3083 6 months ago
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willC801 6 months ago
@saamohod "....and the truth shall set u free" (the Bible)
doublew84 5 months ago
@doublew84 That was intended irony, mate. You didn't get it.
saamohod 5 months ago
@saamohod bs you didnt intend that...atheists arent that smart--the inherent nihilism in your ideology and subsequent depression as a result thereof is a detriment to your brain development or sustenance such that you are incapable of irony. cheers....
doublew84 2 months ago
@doublew84 There is no depression. Last time when I was depressed was years ago, when I was a religious man.
saamohod 2 months ago
@saamohod I totally agree about not fearing death. What I don't understand is how people can't find solace in the finite existence that is life. It ends. There is no way around it. Take comfort from that, not worry. Worry about the shit in your life, not *after* it.
blueshirt12 4 months ago
I never thought about human error like that before. Interesting what most people assume.
LossOfEternal 1 year ago
LOL all conventional doctors do is prescribe stupid drugs and surgery. Conventional doctors have no understanding of nutrition, detoxification mechanisms, electromagnetic fields, exercise, and they don't understand how all the chemicals man is creating are poisoning us such as mercury fillings, fluoride, chlorine, MSG, aspartame, refined sugar, refined flour, refined sugar. Man NOT God has created degenerative disease. Read the book "Natural Cures They Don't Want You to Know About". Pray also!
7TJBarba 1 year ago
@7TJBarba This post is a load of crap. I'll agree that the overabundance of refined flour and sugar (of any kind) in our foods is unhealthy, but most of your post is just nonsense. Electromagnetic Fields? Not enough iron in your body to notice. Aspartame? Tastes bad. MSG? It's a salt. Chlorine? Probably extended your life. Fluoride? Un-fluoridated water often contains more naturally occurring fluoride than fluoridated water. Detoxification? Eat fiber. Exercise? Already recommended.
HoleDweller 1 year ago
@7TJBarba Wow, how incredibly scientific of you, any information at all to back that up or are you just pulling that information directly from the depths of your seemingly infinite chasms of bullshit. Well, forget modern medicine I'll just start praying...
sakaklovas 11 months ago
i would love for this guy to teach me physics
evrythingelswastaken 1 year ago
That´s why I hate when a patient tells me that someone else told him his going to die in x years. Doctors CAN´T know for sure. It´s unethical to do so.
moonlightavenger 1 year ago
It's funny how AFTER the fact, all the doctors were "correct" in diagnosing the cancer, yet if you had to go to three different doctors then it's safe to say that you didn't believe the first two to begin with...
thelordmemnoch 1 year ago
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@meurglys33 Btw, there's a very good reason why a physics professor would fail more pre-med student than pre-law.
AllknowingGuitarGuru 1 year ago
@meurglys33 Thanks for the debate... have a great Sunday :)
AllknowingGuitarGuru 1 year ago
@AllknowingGuitarGuru
You too buddy. Anytime.
Meurglys33 1 year ago
@AllknowingGuitarGuru The reason there are more pre-med students failing physics than pre-law is that most pre-law programs don't require physics. Now, why didn't the physics professor figure that out, if he's so damn smart... lol
Take care!!!
AllknowingGuitarGuru 1 year ago
@AllknowingGuitarGuru taking a 101 science is generally a requirement to get any degree from an accredited school.
HoleDweller 1 year ago
@HoleDweller You're funny. The course in question is introductory physics. Not science 101, whatever you believe that to be. Matriculation into law programs don't require physics coursework. Most med school programs require introductory physics coursework. Non-science majors are generally not required to take a physics course to earn an undergraduate degree. Check your local 4 year university for the facts. And please don't waste my time with things that are easily researched with Google.
AllknowingGuitarGuru 1 year ago
@AllknowingGuitarGuru I said A 101 science class, that is referring to physics, biology, or chemistry 101. Your basic bachelors requires a handful of credits from each of the major schools, distribution requirements. You should take a reading comprehension class as you are obviously lacking.
HoleDweller 1 year ago
@HoleDweller You foolish nubby.
Do you know what required coursework means?
Required course work for med school matriculation: 1 yr of intermediate level intro to Biology (pre-requisite for the bio course = 1 year of gen chem w/ lab), 1 year of organic chem w/lab, 1 year of gen physics w/lab, 1 year of calc.
Required course work for law school matriculation: political science, philosophy, sociology, and history. Preference coursework: economics, business, math, and finance.
You lose :(
AllknowingGuitarGuru 1 year ago
@AllknowingGuitarGuru You can't just look at the specific schools or majors, because they never list the core curriculum required by the university. Google won't do the work for you if you don't even have a clue what you are looking for.
HoleDweller 1 year ago
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AllknowingGuitarGuru 1 year ago
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@HoleDweller PART1: Columbia is a top notch Ivy League school, and should be representative. Let's have a look:
Columbia requires any of three courses listed site below. And they don't require physics.
college dot columbia dot edu/bulletin/core/science.php
Click on the link for the physics offered "Physics for Poets". And not that it states that it's not meet med school requirements. The courses science majors take are naturally more rigorous, because their getting a degree in science, duh!
AllknowingGuitarGuru 1 year ago
@AllknowingGuitarGuru hey look, you finally found it and still act like a dick. You need to chill. Not all BS degrees have core classes that meet the science credit requirement. Crazy but true. I'd be ashamed to make any scientific claims without some physics under my belt. That's like claiming to be a mathematician and not understanding algebra. Biology requires chemistry, chemistry requires physics. Probably why so many people have been dying from bad drug combinations recently.:P
HoleDweller 1 year ago
@HoleDweller Look Ass-Dweller, all accredited college programs have a science component but with varying levels of depth being require. That is the central argument: you're on a weak rhetorical footing when you equate the required physics education of doctors to those of attorneys. The elementary schema you draw up is stating the obvious but your conclusions lack rigorous cogitation and fail badly. You clearly haven't completed a collegiate education. Why don't work on that and then we'll talk.
AllknowingGuitarGuru 1 year ago
@AllknowingGuitarGuru I only stated 2 conclusions: the fact that degrees require at least a 101 (strange that you don't know what a 101 course is) of some science and that you have trouble with reading comprehension (more obvious with every post). Everything else was just sarcasm.
I pointed out an error in your post, and you blew it out of proportion and made yourself look like an ass.Now you are just repeating what I posted earlier and trying to act like you already knew. You reek of bullshit.
HoleDweller 1 year ago
@HoleDweller Shouldn't you be cleaning up the mess on aisle 5 at the Walmart? How's that working out for you? Now scram, your ignorance about collegiate education is making my brain itch.
AllknowingGuitarGuru 1 year ago
@HoleDweller PART2: As state on the Columbia website:
"The science component is intended specifically to provide students with the opportunity to learn what kinds of questions are asked about nature, how hypotheses are tested against experimental or observational evidence, how results of tests are evaluated, and what knowledge has been accumulated about the workings of the natural world."
This translates into "Fluff Courses" which have little qualitative analysis going on.
AllknowingGuitarGuru 1 year ago
@HoleDweller Just Google pre-reqs for Law School and Med School and stop making a complete idiot of yourself.
Non science majors never consider taking physics, because it's not part of the required coursework.
Law students generally have degrees in poly sci or history. Look up the graduation reqs for these majors. Calc, physics, chem and bio are NOT part of the requirements for these majors.
Please research the facts... you're looking like an idiot to anyone with college degree.
AllknowingGuitarGuru 1 year ago
That and your "A diagnosis of terminal cancer?" thingy was, to be bluntly honest, of a very poor informative value. It lead me to think that you're not fully aware of how hard it is to take complex stuff it takes years to learn, and shrink it, smooth it, sugarcoat it, to render it accessible for a less scientific mind. How you have to ponder not only what you know, but what the "receptacle" knows. And to keep their interest. How much of a challenge all of this is. Too big to be downplayed.
Meurglys33 1 year ago
@Meurglys33 "That and your "A diagnosis of terminal cancer?" thingy was, to be bluntly honest, of a very poor informative value." Valid
The problem is that there is a limit as to how far one may simplify a concept before the fundamental principles are lost. Cancer prognosis is based on probability. These prognosis are the product of thousands of outcomes as recorded over many years. This is why when the doctor renders his dx it's more of a probability, not a certainly. Each case is unique.
AllknowingGuitarGuru 1 year ago
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@AllknowingGuitarGuru "The problem is that there is a limit as to how far one may simplify a concept before the fundamental principles are lost."
Oh I agree, it's where the challenge is. Trim it down, keep it real, then see if you can trim it some more. Find the angle to present it, find a way for it to make sense for the masses. It's worthy of praises you know, because it is difficult.
"anyone with a medical degree"
I don't have one of those. One of my parent does. So I can fathom a bit.
Meurglys33 1 year ago
@Meurglys33 Essentially, anyone with a medical degree, whether they are an oncologist or not, would understand that Tyson's anecdote was improper. He fundamentally misrepresented the diagnosis and prognosis protocol. He did the medical field a disservice by disseminating bad information on an important medical condition.
However, when Tyson spoke on the possibility of the earth being struck by Apophis, he explained it as a probability. The prognosis of cancer is also based on probability.
AllknowingGuitarGuru 1 year ago
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(cont'd) Let me know when Tyson wins one of the following awards and we'll talk. Until then, Tyson is just a television personality whose sole purpose in life is to provide pablum to a public poorly educated in science:
Crafoord Prize - Dannie Heineman Prize for Astrophysics - Lorentz Medal - Bruno Rossi Prize - Isaac Newton Medal, Pomeranchuk Prize - Enrico Fermi Award - Albert Einstein Medal - Oskar Klein Medal - American Institute of Physics' Science Writing Award - Kavli Prize
AllknowingGuitarGuru 1 year ago
18 idiot doctors watched this video.
AtheistPrincess14 1 year ago
Tyson has reached the nadir of his career. And what notable scholarly work is he known for? He's a hack who's clearly out of his realm of expertise.
A diagnosis of terminal cancer? Let's say pancreatic ca: first you'd use patient hx and sxs, followed by markers, then imaging (CT), then fine needle aspiration bx, where a pathologist would render the definitive dx. Thus the dx is the result of a team of doctors. Multiply this by 3x.
Tyson is a show-boater with no legitimacy as a scientist.
AllknowingGuitarGuru 1 year ago
@AllknowingGuitarGuru
Get over yourself.
luwala23 1 year ago