Szasz Thomas MD on ADHD - ADD in children

[learn54]

Diseases are malfunctions of the human body so behavior can not be a disease. In the 1950's this was accepted wisdom. In the 21st century, it is a radical statement.

[gilluccioli]

Dear, lissen this article online about Prof. Szasz. affaritaliani.libero.it/social­e/

[4ckedhero]

it seems to me a semantics game you are playing. if it would make you and mr szasz happy to treat mental illnesses under the auspices of 'neurology' - fine, lets do that. it does not change the reality of the illnesses. i have inattentive ADD. Dr szasz thinks its a fictional problem. i know its not. im missing a gene that most people have and it affects negatively on my life. ive had it since i was born. it can be proven by doing an MRI on my brain.

[4ckedhero]

mr szasz had obviously never had nor cared for someone with a mental illness. if he had he would know intimately how real they can be. 

[markae0]

@4ckedhero

Behaviors are real , the psychotic molecule is not, the depression molecule is not. These imaginary molecules do not float in my (schizophrenic) bloodstream for antipsychotics and antidepressants to attack. People must control themselves, if they can not control themselves their feeling/emotions must be too large. Drugs can help or harm. A lifetime of drugs is the wrong solution, and also a 25 year shorter one on "meds".

[hezekiahbiles]

@markae0 Hear hear!

[ADFerrizzi]

@4ckedhero as someone who has two "comorbid diseases" -- 'bipolar disorder' and 'drug and alcohol addiction' -- i can say that it is perfectly consistent to hold szasze's view and to believe that what we call 'mental illnesses' -- general pathologies of behavior and of mental processes -- are very real and should be dealt with.

[LexeconKiddo]

@ADFerrizzi With all due respect, the majority of people entering treatment for substance abuse come out believing the in the "disease model" regarding not only addiction/alcoholism (which I personally believe is utter bullshit--and VERY damaging to the people that label is attached to!) and more often than not these days another comorbid disease. I've seen people talked into their bipolar DXes too many times. Perhaps you do have it, perhaps it does exist, but forgive my skepticism.

[ADFerrizzi]

@4ckedhero the use of medicine is not, on this view, always unwarranted, nor is the empathetic treatment of patients. what is incorrect is the discursive structure that calls me 'addict' and 'diseased,' the cultural response to those notions, and the over-medicalization and hyper-symtomatization that comes with them.

[Mr1567341]

the shrink is GAY, run for your life and stretch

[markae0]

Definition of Neurology :the science of the nerves and the nervous system, esp. of the diseases affecting them.

What you describe is Neurology, not Psychiatry.

Diabetes is lab test identifiable. Any and all mental  illnesses are not.

[ekorre33]

My point about diabetes was that it was recognised as a disease long before it was lab test identifiable.

It would have been unwise to conclude that diabetes was not a disease, prior to lab testing being available.

The symptoms suggested something was wrong long before science could confirm a disease through lab tests.

[markae0]

I already answered this . You seem to not understand. If it is a physical disease then Neurology treats the illness. Are you suggesting our microscopes and DNA tests are not powerful enough yet?

[ekorre33]

I think there is an incredible amount of knowledge about the human body that has yet to be discovered. This is especially true for the central nervous system. Many advances will be made in the years to come!

You cannot simply conclude that a disease does not exist because we in 2009 don't yet have a lab test for it. Apply your logic back in time....does a disease come into existence first when it's lab test identifiable???

[markae0]

Apply YOUR logic back in time, is their a test for homosexuality? Is homosexuality wrong?

[nicmart]

@ekorre33

Imposing treatments on individuals for putative diseases whose causes MAY be discovered at a future date is quackery.

[ekorre33]

Not sure what you mean by "any and all mental illnesses are not (lab test identifiable)? Schizophrenia, autism, asperger's syndrome etc may not be revealed by a lab test, but certainly nobody would say they are imaginary? Or at least I hope not?

[markae0]

Is homosexuality imaginary? I don't think so. Neither are the things you list a disease. You can't catch them like a cold, or see them under a microscope.

[ekorre33]

I obviously don't think homosexuality is an illness that should be treated!

I don't understand how you can compare homosexuality with the things I listed?

Let's look at autism as an example. You either have it at birth, or you don't! One cannot "catch" autism. The people who have it, suffer in varying degrees and in various ways though!

Should we not try to treat it regardless of the cause? Does it have to be acquired in order to be treated?

[ekorre33]

Szasz argues that only mental illnesses are defined based on consensus and symptom clusters. This is not the case. Physical illnesses such as Kawasaki syndrome (a disorder of the heart and blood vessels) [15] and Ménière's disease (a disorder of the inner ear) [16] are similarly defined.

[markae0]

Homosexuality used to be a disease according to psychiatry." British Government did not remove homosexuality from its International Classification of Disease list (the list used by, amongst other things, the Mental Health Services in Britain to determine mental illnesses) until 1994. In other words, until just 12 years ago, the British Governments official stance on homosexuality was that it was a mental disorder which might have a cure."

[ekorre33]

In the same debate as below Frederick K. Goodwin, M.D asserts : "The concept of disease in medicine really means a cluster of symptoms that people can agree about, and in the case of depression we agree 80% of the time. It is a cluster of symptoms that predicts something.

[markae0]

Feelings or/and Emotions are not diseases.

[ekorre33]

"The effectiveness of medication has been used as an argument against Szaszs idea that depression is a myth. In a debate with Szasz, Donald F. Klein, M.D explained: It is that elementary fact, that the antidepressants do little to normals, and are tremendously effective in the clinically depressed person, that shows us that this is an illness

Quotes taken from Wikipedia

[markae0]

I guess you missed the news.

Antidepressants found to be no better than Placebo.

The findings are published in the February issue of the journal PLoS Medicine

[ekorre33]

Studies like those reviewed by Kirsch and colleagues, which compare a single drug to placebo, do not accurately reflect the way doctors prescribe antidepressants.

Many who are depressed do not respond to the first antidepressant they try, It can take up to an average of three different antidepressants until one is found that works for a particular individual. Therefore, testing any single antidepressant on a group of depressed individuals will show that many of them do not improve.

[markae0]

Look at the word "antidepressant" the person feels a profound sadness, right? What is the opposite of sad? Happy. These depressed people are not happy and are complaining they are not happy. Un-happy people have existed since the dawn of mankind, without unhappyness nothing would motivate people to change. Something is making people feel unhappy. It is like saying feeling hunger is an illness. Depression used to be know as one of the seven deadly sins, the sin of Sloth.

[ekorre33]

Reducing depression to unhappiness and comparing it with hunger is bizarre! It's ludicrous. Are the depressed sinners by the way?? ;)

[markae0]

How do you describe subjective reality? With words. Words change over time. Mans struggle to live has always existed.

[markae0]

pharmaceutical companies such as Pfizer (maker of Zoloft) and Forest Laboratories (Celexa and Lexapro) have vastly exaggerated the performance of their drugs.

[ekorre33]

Dr. Szasz' long and close relationship with Scientologi undermines his credibility.

"Szasz's critics maintain that, contrary to his views, such illnesses are now regularly "approached, measured, or tested in scientific fashion. The list of groups that reject his opinion that mental illness is a myth include the American Medical Association (AMA) , American Psychiatric Association (APA)"

[markae0]

You are wrong, Szasz is credible.

[ekorre33]

We'll have to agree to disagree as to whether Szasz is credible!

Anyone involved with scientologi gives me the creeps, phd or not!

[James1toknow]

I looked up what you said but don't know of anything in reguards, sorry but let me know what yoou find please.

[James1toknow]

When ever we want to alter the way someone acts. We give it a name then a drug. I would like to name aggressive and dangerous drivers a name, Hyper active aggressive attention deficit dangours drivers. HAADDD. Now lets give them a drug to slow them down and give them the ability to read signs and become great drivers for all society. Now give it to them by force. I hope you see my point. Lets impliment this with bad drivers and not children. At least our insurance should come down.

[whiff1962]

Have you heard of the research-apocryphal as it seems-into the development of vaccines against certain mental illnesses? Kind of a gene therapy. It might come off as a Huxleyian fiction, but it is being looked into. You and I seem to be in accord with this present-day fixation of doctors to label and medicate. It IS a form of coercion, especially to children.

[markae0]

If it is physical as in neurological, then it isn't mental.

[sexyichigogirl1]

I hve ADD and i kno that am DEFINATLY NOT normal i cant act like a normal kid because of a chemical in my brain that is unbalanced and right now im taking ... actually im throwing my pills out so there HA U ASSHOLE DOCTORS!!! it dont matter that i cant be all that normal!!!!!!!

[wubs23]

that is why (i have probably ADD, i will hear it from the psychiatrist today) i will NOT take medicine. It is fine that they want to label me, but i will seek help by talking and changing my behaviour through power of will, NOT trough medications like ritalin, which is made from cocaine :S

[markae0]

You can ask what lab tests have been done to diagnose the disease you have to judge/justify the apropriate amount, and type of medicine to treat it.

Medicines are for disease , disease that leads to physical damage of the body.

Drugs are for ease of living, they may not be necessary to live. Other examples of drugs would be alcohol and tobacco. A person can live without taking drugs. A person with disease will usually have a worsening of physical heath if they do not take a medication.

[SFJane]

'we are sorry, this video is no longer available'

on two different browsers across three different internet capable machines

[markae0]

strange, because it still works on my computer. I see it right now.

Can you read the text transcript when you click (more info)?

[SFJane]

yes no problem

[markae0]

no, I believe Szasz is saying ADHD is a behaviour, not a disease, we can chose our behaviours for the most part as thinking human beings. Chemicals can change our behaviour, but the behaviour does not exist as a medical disease. There are no unbalanced brain chemicals, if they do detect such chemicals , the behaviour is no longer MENTAL illness but physical illness that a neurologist should treat.

[iamthesecondwalrus]

so is this guy saying adhd doesn't exist?