The saddest part about it was that Sosabowski was one of the best generals allies had. He was offered to be commander of all allied airborne forces but refused to keep command of Polish air borne units that were to be later used to liberate Poland (which never happened).
He was against the plan since the beginning and insisted that it needs better intel and better prepared landing zones, but he was ignored cause Monty wanted his glory fast. Anyway watch "The General's Honour" for more info.
1Polish Parachute Brigade was oryginally formed as
support for National Uprising in Poland.
But british HQ by politiccal pressure, taked controle under this unit and add them into British Airborn Forces.
1August 1944 in Warsaw and rest of the Polish State started National Uprising called Operation "Tempest", but Eagles stay in Britain and later fight in Holland during Operation "Market Garden".......
@bpiotrAgain The poles may have had a air brigade in 1944, but it was a brigade euipped, outfitted and supplied by Britain. Also the poles had no wings to fly to their country, the still needed some sort of airtransport, the RAF. So much for the hopes of thousands of people in warsaw, only fools would hope, a parachute drop into poland was a no go, completely unrealistic.
the french should have shot petain. a damned traitor to the french. they should have listened to degaulle for his radical theories of massed armor and aircraft, but no!
someone did a documentary on Sosabowski and the Polish paratroopers. its called the General's Honor. you can find it on youtube. it has lots of good information.
Germany unveiled FALSE economic system ruling the world,by getting rid of Brutal Taxes High interest rates Devaluations (dollar of no use) No Restriction to local money printing Unnecesary IMF credits Mass media,jew controlled Financial system,jew controlled Industrial limitations,jew controlled Commerce Monopole,jew controlled Tech+Services,jew controlled Catle and Grain additional fees to farmers This is why Judea declared war to germa ny 24.3.1933 Daily Express issue
does that mean i have as much of idea of tactics and planning as Montgomery? if you read most books, it described Market Garden as a disaster. poor planning, and everything else. if it was so successful, why did Monty and Browning blame Sosabowski and the Poles for the failure? 1st Airborne was missng three quarters of its forces. may i suggest you read some more books and the history channel. you like Monty, fine, he did some things really good; Market Garden is not one of them.
no General Sosabowski, the Polish General. 90% of the goals may have been achieved but the cost was too high. Allies had more casualties than in the Normandy campaign. the plan looked good but to many ifs and overly optimistic planning. too many things went wrong, as General Powell has said, no plan survives the point of contact. it would have been great if it worked by all means.
@gunnermac70 no Monty was just arrogant, overly optimistic, and did poor planning about Market Garden. not stupid though. should have listened to the Pole.
February 1946 the communist government in Warsaw announced that the Polish Armed Forces in the West are no more recognized as Polish. In 1948, General Sosabowski was demobilized.
He remained in exile in Britain and worked as a warehouse worker and a factory of television sets. He died September 25, 1967 in London. In 1969 General paratroopers, still faithful to their commander,brought his ashes to Poland,which were buried - according to his will - at the Military Cemetery at Powązki in Warsaw.
"Oh, I'm sorry. General Sosabowski, you'll go with the Polish Brigade...." This fragment nicely sums up the attitude of Britain towards Poland during WWII.
GroundskeeperRonnie No The Poles were/ are Courageous men, as Pilots in the BoB they showed how courageous and determined they were, how ever then most polish fighters ie 95% did not use English, this was a drawback in, terms of Control & Communicate,
baliw002 the book, that iniated this Film was written by an American C Ryan, at the time oof writing, very few knew of Ultra, a Brit name ,for reading German codes, Ryan knew nothing of the reasons Monty, No More,, Churchill pressed for this action, Patton was a liability, a loose Cannon, much in the said, Diva mode as was McArthur
Even Eisenhower isn't that stupid... lols... The Germans knew Monty was a stupid general and so they wanted him to lead the assault and not Patton. Lols. Even Patton voiced his displease in giving stupid Monty the lead. Had Patton been given all he wanted he could have been the one to take Berlin and not the Russians. No Berlin wall would have been created later.
Patton wanted a head on charge at the siegfried line. The bulk of the German western warmachine was holed up there. He MIGHT have got to berlin quicker then Market Garden but at the cost of thousands off allied soldiers being literally "chucked" into the meat grinder.
There was a reason why Eisenhower picked Monty.
However in my opinion their great success as generals, came when the two worked together. Almost like completing a full circle.
Eisenhower picked monty purely because of diplomatic reason's. you cannot have a supreme commander a american and commander of land forces also as a american. Eisenhower and patton went back to WW1 they were mates at west point. i think patton was a tank commander. the germans feared patton much more than Monty because of what he cold get out of his troops. market G failed simply because 30 corp did not go on to arhnem they stopped!
Patton did not meet Eisenhower until after ww1. Eisenhower choose Monty's plan to rapidly pursue the retreating german army northwards after the falaise pocket and gain a rapid bridgehead over the rhine as opposed to the siegfried line.
30 corps stopped because the SS Panzer divisions were attacking its flanks defended by paratroopers. Actualy read up history.
I agree, Monty Fucked up, well no not fucked up...The idea was good enough, but to blame one of his subordinates for the failure of his task sickens me. (as in Monty blaming the poles for the failure)
The whole thing was 50/50 from the onset. It failed - how the fuck can you blame anybody for anything with those odds??
After the battle Sosabowski was unjustly made a scapegoat for the failure of Operation Market Garden, following a critical evaluation by English Lt. Gen. Frederick Browning.He was accused of criticizing Field Marshal Montgomery and the Polish General Staff was forced to remove him as the commanding officer of his brigade on 27 December 1944. He was made the commander of guard troops and in July 1948 he was demobilised.
@muffidanger You Poles sure do know how to fight. I really respect you. You didn't have half the resources that the French had nor a overseas empire yet you held on fighting the Germans against impossible odds and when you knew it was hopeless you got out all those that you could and fought on until the war ended especially during the 1944 uprising. Such great fighters. Your country was torn apart and yet you fought on. Remarkable.
@qbarycerz No. Thank you. Your beautiful country was wedged between two great beasts and yet Polish armed forces accomplished so much. Consider this: The Polish brigade at Arnhem, the Polish aces that fought in British aerial squadrons, and Polish troops at Monte Cassino. Absolutely remarkable. Take care and greetings from the United States.
Montgomery was a fine commander. Market Garden was a brilliant idea but ahead of it's time. The operation was worth a shot. It would have ended WWII in 1944 before the Russians got to Berlin. The British, American, and Polish guys nearly pulled it off. Britain didn't want war so we didn't prepare. Had we done so, over by 1943.
God bless Sowsabowski and his gallant men. Churchill faught for Poland at Yalta but was pushed aside. The US and the USSR had the world by the balls in those talks.
Roosevelt was foaming at the mouth to enter the war. (He was an international banker who stood to gain BILLIONS)
Look at what he was doing to provoke the likes of Pearl harbor. (USA claims neutrality then starts to openly suply every anti-axis country with arms & equipment - WTF!!!!)
Why did he ignore the warnings from Australian Intelligence about the Japanese Carrier force moving towards Hawaii?
Of course they didn't have to do anything. But it was our war too. And it's true we were sold - especially by Roosevelt.
But the dumbest arsehole of all was Monty! He ignored reports about German devisions in the region. He was just a cocky dumbarse competing with Patton (whom I honestly respect).
first of all, Herr Wittmann, you have misspeled general's name. His name was Sosabowski. Second of all, he said "I am a Pole, considered by some to be smart." By the way, there is some suspicion that Michael Wittmann was killed by soldiers of the 1st Polish Armored Brigade. Quite ironic, isn't it?
This is a movie. In reality most generals voiced opposition concerning the feasibility of this plan. There were so many flaws in it not the least of which was Monty thinking he could advance that far that fast. In the end it turned in to a race to save the remnants of the British Air Borne division who had held out far longer than they were told they would have to.
Most notably the germans falling for the allies misinformation campaign before D-Day. So it was the collossus project at Bletchley park that won the code breaking war. A soully British invention, by british inventers.
As for the poles contribution it was gratefully received, but they found the relationship was equally beneficial to them at the time also, as their country was under the nazi boot they were only to glad to grab on to britains shirt tail in the war against the nazis.
The poles couldnt wait to fight for the allies and get their own back on the buggers that invaded their land. What were they going to do when they got sanctuary in Britain? Sit out the rest of the war, while their country went down the pan! I dont think so.
The most important code breaking machine during the war was the British made "collossus" invented by Engineer Tommy flowers and mathamatician max newman both English men. Without collossus the war would of dragged on another eighteen months, and it also saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Collossus was also succesfull in unscrambling secret german transmissions that allowed top British millitery brass to work out hitlers battle strategy and adjust their own plans accordingly.
ae62ea: You might want to "google" the names Marian Rejewski, Henryk Zygalski and Jerzy Rozycki to find out more about these three Polish mathematicians/cryptologists and what they did to crack the Enigma codes. Interesting reading !!!
When one finds out about the treason within Hitler's own ranks: Black Orchestra, Red Orchestra, Canaris, Werther, from '39 on...even open radio transmissions don't seem such a big deal. Code or no code -the Allies, and Stalin, got their Intel.
I don't doubt that the cracking of the Enigma was a mathematical achievement...I'm not familiar with the exact timeline: whether it was sufficiently "broken" before or after U-505's capture.
hitler overstreched himself,he took on 2 superpowers in the usa and ussr,he might have been able to deal with the russians but the yanks as well,no chance.
Monocle, "guardsman"?, dipshit...Is this a British problem? Or just yers? Is the facade of Brtish "martyrdom" so fragile at this point? When the fuck did I defend American actions in WW2? Then you bring up A-bombing? WTF? Spaight spilt his guts (boasted actually) of THAT WHICH YOU DENY. Yer full o' shit,mate. British "Integrity" on display here, haha
Another "truth" from monocle,(Oops!) June 22. Yup. Dead of Winter. Where are you? Australia? That's OK..We know what you "meant" to say in yer muddled way. Hitler was a very capable military leader. All his early campaigns, unhindered by treason or the Red Orchestra, were successes. You may read Skorzeny's memoirs. Wellington: "Blücher! Thank God! I was gettin' my ass kicked!" haha
As for democracy i totally agree, My democracy i bet is very different to your democracy, and its the same all over. Afghanistan dont even want democracy. But bush is saying yes you do. Now thats democracy. I think the problem is democracy is still very young and its very much running before you can walk. Its also like women, they dont have any democracy. They have been cheated out of been contented with been in the home and married, with children.
Yes i am still a bit sore about been pushed off the new world in the late 1770s, still cant be helped i suppose. As for bomber harris i did think you were unfair in your comment associating him in the way you implied. Harris and the RAF were fighting a war, and i know the dresdon issue is very sensitive with people but when London, and other british citys and people were bombed and killed we have to take the attitude "Never mind, stiff upper lip, tradition will win at the end of the day."
Let's be real: Though the US had "concentration camps" just like Germany they surely weren't the same. And in the same way, comparing Coventry or London to Dresden or Hamburg is, well, need I go on? I myself define a "war crime" as the intentional targeting of non-combatants. Surprising how many people want exceptions after I say that...
As for your opinions on dresden comparison to london been bombed, one death is one to many. Do you think the germans would have done the same to us?? Damn right they would of. Twice. As i said previously we were fighting a war, and as sorry as i feel for the innocent non-combatants wherever they are from, war is not going to show that courtesy. But let me be very clear i hate war of any description, period.
"Hitler only undertook the bombing of British civilian targets after the RAF had commenced bombing German civilian targets". - J.M. Spaight, Bombing Vindicated, 1944
All you need do is read British Air Ministry Secretary J.M. Spaight's own words on the bombing exchange to find out that Britain began it (really perfected in the 20's in Iraq) and escalated it. Read Spaight's words...Churchill gave a speech (14July41)saying he'd turn down a German offer to limit bombs to the combat zone only. "You do your worst and..."
Tell me why it doesnt suprise me you have quoted J.M.Spaight at me? Again we were at WAR!, Britain never started it, and what would your country have done under the circumstances? Well you showed that in Hiroshema? So dont throw stones at glass houses.
Anyway this conversation has run its course as far as im concerned, im not going round in circles with you about it anymore.
The British have done a lot for the Jews. From Balfour to fighting Hitler... and you were rewarded: at the King David Hotel, Lord Moyne in Cairo...numerous British servicemen, here and there. Rightly killed, I suppose. "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter", yes?
Allright,allright i get your points, first of all you have answered the order of st. john question. The mere fact we are ignorent of it today, means we will never know, but you will know ae62ea the plans and dreams hitler had for the world after the war was completed. As for elliott no disrespect intended, if you also remember in the film Ryan o'neil reminds us to stop sitting round drinking tea all day. These cliches and stereo typing im afraid will stick with us forever more.
I realize everyone gets "stereotyped" in film. Well, almost everyone... I don't know of Hitler's "plans" for "the world". Too many lies have been told in 60+ years for me to believe the self-appointed "teachers" who also told me the Germans did Katyn, human soap, lampshades, death by "steaming" (at first)...4 million at Auschwitz (at first). Now they back-pedal to save a shred of credibility..."bollocks" to that
But you know this film for me gives the yanks a real short straw. The scene when you see Elliott Gould tear arsing toward the bridge, with a cigar clenched in his teeth. Cracks me up everytime, only the Americans.
Mind you i would rather be as i am now than be under the Nazi order of St.John. And you my friend wouldnt be an american, you might be an awesome german, but not american. Ah the world of if's,if's,if's.
Yes, Elliot is a good comedic character. As a vet myself, to think he might "represent" a US soldier to some in the audience makes me want to "take back" my service. Misrepresentation is "in the eye of the beholder", I guess. What is the Nazi order of "St. John"?
Only last year did britain eventually settle the bill with America. But again it has to be said half the equipment we bought off you was shitte anyway.
Not much has changed today your still fighting for money in Iraq, and anyone who thinks it is still regime change as you rightfully said it is lamentable. Same time tomorrow professer ae62ea? Maybe you'll succeed where Mr blairs Education system failed.
From what I understand, the British were rather happy with our Corsairs, even flew them off their carriers before we did. "Settle the bill"? OK...didn't know ya were still paying us, things are so fucked up here the very idea of "accounting" is laughable...
Monocle,my friend, you proceed with a few presumptions: That I support US involvement in (several) wars, whether for "regime change","money" or something else. Never said I did. You read "American" on my profile and think (that means) I'm a Bush-backing "cowboy"...certainly not after reading my scribblings... Things can't be THAT bad in Britain that they'd stoop to enlisting my advice, but ya did give me a chuckle:)
Well theres an eye opener if ever there was one, before your last comments you came across as someone who was mad with history, yeah you definetely sometimes have a point but then you also come across with envy also.. Was it the fact that before 1917 the only significant history in the new world was cowboys and indians, while the british went back to rubbing shoulders with the romans and beyond?
Half of my ancestors are English. Perhaps they "rubbed shoulders" with the Romans, too. If that occurred, I'm not overly proud of it. I'm more proud of my other forefathers who destroyed 3 Roman legions in 9 A.D. thus making a future England possible.
"envy"? What did I say that has me sounding envious? Some would say that whole "democratic government" thing (1775-on) was fairly significant beyond just "cowboys and indians". Sorry if you're still sore about being "pushed off" back then, but really, I wasn't even born yet, nor am I a big fan of "democracy" at all costs :)
The envy remark was triggered off because when i tried to share my experience with the old timer in Israel with the youtube viewers, immedietely there was descripences about not just my knowledge of the historonics of who stood alone at the beginning of the war, which U.K did still after france had fallen. But the old man would have said the same to you,me,canadian,dutchman all he was doing was trying to reach out and be grateful nothing more.
I'm a half-German who's unfortunately (or fortunately?) quite familiar with Ilya Ehrenburg, someone who Israel/Jews will not denounce. Show me the Jew who cries for Dresden. I've never heard or seen such a creature. You can share the story, but not the "experience". My "experience" with the "Israelites" would differ from yours. Does that make it less valid?
Your right about the Jews been self preservation about themselves, my experience out there was nothing more than buming around a kibbutz and taking in sights etc. But they wont cry for dresdon the same way they wouldnt cry for anyone else, just because they have selfish, greedy qualities doesnt mean i want to go and hurt one. As i said i was just airing the story, nothing in it.
What am i inferring here?? about selfish qualities was me, i was talking about me. Not you, or anyone else ME! Do i live in a bubble? No i will leave that for the man that reads about goats to kids while his country is been attacked. I know of britains short comings and theres plenty of them, but listening to you i prefer my boat to yours, any day of the week.
You are 100% correct that Britain continued the war after France surrendered. Alone, until 22June41 when Churchill found a reason to love "red", and forgave Stalin for invading the eastern half of Poland. And Finland. And the Baltics....
And that period alone up to june 41 i know for a fact was a trying testing time for britain? Why because i have spoken to vets, chelsea pensioners, and even those who were at home. And that is why i still stand by my remarks of the steadfastness, courage,and integrity shown by the British people back then. I know it means nothing to you because you have allready stated that, but it means a lot to me. And it would to you if your people lived and survived it.
"trying testing time"? You don't live in a bubble do you? Have you seen pictures of Germany postwar? "integrity"? Really? Read about the British behaviour, "chivalry" at Bleiburg, when no more "nazis" were a threat? If this is British "integrity"...where do I go to turn in my English heritage and exchange it for something worth a shit?
Im not feeling the love here man, first of all if you look back at the previous comments i was making reference to the time we were alone during the war steadfastness etc.
British Behaviour???!! yes its extremely clear now you have got issues with Britain, every thing i have put down you have scoffed at it. Fine your entitled to your opinion, but thats all it is a voice in the wilderness just like us all.
While Stalin packed men,women, children on trains for Siberia in the Baltics, shot tens of thousands others, British ranted about Hitler. That's British "integrity" in action. "double-plus" Bollocks
screwylouie, I apologize for the structure of my sentence. I was trying to fit a lot into the "500 word" space. I meant: the victims were "put on trains in the Baltics HEADED TO Siberia." I grew up with Latvian friends and I'm very well aware of [world] geography.
First, Monocle tells a lie: That the British ALONE stood up for Poland. And quite a lie it IS. In fact, it wasn't even ALL of Poland as "noble" Britain didn't declare war on Stalin who invaded the eastern half. Fucking HYPOCRITES in those Isles,eh?
Actually Churchill was the only one to see the threat of the Russians. Hence the much criticised invasion of Italy which American generals lamented about. Churchills foresight made him believe a left turn at the Gothic line would get the Allies to Germany before the Russians.
As for your presumptions remark im only quoting to you the chronicles of peoples experiences some of them american even. I dont expect either how i perceive myself to mean anything to you, but if the boot was on the other foot you would be expecting the homage even more than you do now.
However the time will come shortly when our arses will be booted out of iraq, and well return with the tail between our legs.
Last reports were, I think, that your "arses" have already left Iraq. "We", that is, George W., aint quite that bright...Or is he serving someone other than the US taxpayer? There are some 14 (semi?)permanent bases in Iraq (alleged), so young stupid Americans may be dying for some time to come. I "expect" no homage from anyone. It's never worth the wait.
yes we have withdrawn from the palace to the airport in Iraq, and total withdraw is im sure inevetible. As an ex Guardsman myself i also despair and have lost confidence in British foreign policies, but what fears me the most is the aftermath when our "Arses" are all back home what happens then. (Religon etc)
I met an old polish jew in Israel, and he loved everybody British, because we were the only ones that declared war on Germany at the invasion of poland. I know there wasnt a lot done at first initially but it was the gesture made that impressed him most.
Either you or that old Jew don't know your history. France also declared war on Germany, same time as Britain, 3 Sept '39. But for various reasons, including French opposition to the Iraq mess, I doubt the Jews would "remember" that intially French soldiers bled for them.
No, i would go back and think again chum Britain kicked off first and foremost. However you are right when you say there are a lot of people out there with very short memories, of sacrifices made.
Discard my last remark ae62ea, i know what you are saying now. I do acknowledge france and U.K. went off together, i was sidetracked with something else. I was only airing this old fellahs story out that was all, but i still feel there are a lot of people out there with short memories.
I read a few years ago, that Tony Blair (if I recall rightly) was lamenting that the young in UK had liitle knowledge (from schooling) of British history: re:WW2, Churchill's "legacy". No doubt, I'd disagree w/Tony on many things. If he was right about this lack of schooling...who's to blame? (I don't think Hitler planned far enough ahead to sabotage the British school system)
Well i know one thing at least we didnt sell out to hitler when the opportunity was offered, i am right in saying we were the only country that were offered a deal before the war started, and i think i'm right in saying we told him to shove it, resulting even to this day our souls intact, showing steadfastness and integrity. Your upset because america have never been looked on with that regard. Profit is all you have ever been about,Like i said in my earlier remark, short memories.
Many here ARE upset that Bush has squandered what good will the US may have had after 9/11. I watch the BBC (Katty Kay and the gang) and I think they do report this American concern. I never backed this "war" and I predicted this turn of events back when we (and YOU) first went into Iraq. Well, 2nd time for us, 3rd time for the "non aggressive" British... Re:"Upset": I am not pleased with some things. How "we" are regarded has nothing to do with MY actions or policies, so I don't care...
I wonder... if the "British Empire" lost a chunk of territory (on the Home Island) and that part of its' people were put under foreign rule (as in the "Polish" corridor), would the English simply roll over? Maybe they would...Today!
There is a speech by Hitler (6 Oct 39), where he again offers peace to BOTH England and France and reaffirms German recognition of Alsace-Lorraine as French. As for "not selling out", your "integrity" and "souls",etc.: It is said that Höss (last Auschwitz commandant) slept soundly at night in his cell at Nuremberg. In like manner, I've never heard Arthur Harris lost sleep over HIS deeds, either. So how you perceive yourself means nothing to me.
And i think youll find that frances offer and conditions of peace was certainly different to that of the U.K'S. As for Bomber harris and hoss well lets just say your way off the mark with that one.
What did Hitler say to the French that differed? (If I'm not aware of the particulars, you can direct me to the quote, yes?) As for Harris and Höss, well, "one man's terrorist...."
However as for hitler he knew britain would be a tougher nut to crack than france, not only geography wise but also for the Nazi obsession for scotland also. And i do remember hitler tried to keep the dialouge open with Britain right up till paris was succesfully taken by them.
"the Nazi obsession for Scotland"? The first video in my favorites is a newsreel of David McLean and his mother who "hosted" Hess after his flight. It's rather charming. But "obsession"...could you explain? (Also see my video of Battle of Britain...)
I have read, watched on documentries and been told over the years that some of Hitler's cronies would be guareented Estates in parts of the highlands of Scotland, they saw themselves as lairds, and gentleman of the manor, we would call it shortbread scotland, dreamers. I know that it all comes under the world of if's and would'ves now, but the Nazis had plans to divvy up the land and give it out like xmas presents to the high racky.
"estates" for his "cronies", "lairds". You're doing exactly what I was complaining about: repeating ill-founded, unfounded slander. "lampshades, soap, etc." have been withdrawn... Show me the facts, the memos (not forged) saying his "cronies" would get Scotland. Come on, man, I can't type in larger letters. I've seen ALL kinds of "facts" on the telly too --since then abandoned by the hoaxers... So what?
How do you know what agendas were in place after the war? Again i repeat its if's and would'ves. Unfounded slander? Now who wants to get into a bubble, Are you saying if the U.K. had fallen, that hitler would of said "Aww thats fine you keep buck palace, Gleneagles,and all the castles of the U.K. were happy as we are" BOLLOX! and you know it.
Himmler was actually an MI6 agent named Henry Higgleston. His task was to promote resistance to German authorities by oppressive policing on the continent. Diana Spencer was Higgleston's grand niece... Higgleston himself retired to Fortis Green. In his 60's he helped his young friend Ray Davies start up a band and even wrote some songs. Oh, and the British fought a "clean" war. Hey, it's fun to make shit up!:)
Monocledmutineer: The Brits didn't do anything for Poland. Actually, it's the other way around. It's the Poles who did more for Britain. The Polish pilots were a force in the Battle Of Britain and they also cracked the initial Enigma codes !!!
ae62ea: The story that I'm aware of concerning the Enigma machine is that the Poles handed working copies to the British and the French in Poland a couple of weeks before the invasion of Poland in September of 1939. The Brits and French were stunned but grateful at the same time. The Poles handed over all they knew to their "allies".
We kept to our word though in declaring war on germany though, and what could we have done more? U.K. couldnt send a force at that time to help them.And what the hell did america do? Even less, except sell us shit equipment at sky rocket prices. As for the RAF it was very good also for propaganda to have polish pilots with the Brits it was the most up yours we could give to the Nazis, and we also had Aussies,New zealanders,canadians,south africans,and even americans.
The idea was sound, however, bad planning, bad weather and the over ambitious ego of Monty. Doomed from the start! RIP all who gave thier life and serive in Market Garden. Utrinque Paratus
After the battle at Arnhem Sosabowski was unjustly made a scapegoat for the failure of Operation Market Garden, following a critical evaluation by Browning. He was accused of criticizing Montgomery and the Polish General Staff was forced to remove him as the commanding officer of his brigade in December 1944. He was made the commander of guard troops and in July 1948 he was demobilised.
If anyone of you is interested in what Polish Veterans who took part in Operation Market Garden have to say about U.K. then type " Polish veterans in Driel " in Utube and watch the very end.
The saddest part about it was that Sosabowski was one of the best generals allies had. He was offered to be commander of all allied airborne forces but refused to keep command of Polish air borne units that were to be later used to liberate Poland (which never happened).
He was against the plan since the beginning and insisted that it needs better intel and better prepared landing zones, but he was ignored cause Monty wanted his glory fast. Anyway watch "The General's Honour" for more info.
born2lol 1 week ago
seventies' masterpiece..remarkable cast, bogarde, olivier, redford, hopkins, connery, fox hackman and many many more fantastic actors..
greetings from warsaw
johnnyPolska 8 months ago
Poles are some of the nicest people in Europe and some of the best soldiers!
moleman9000 11 months ago 3
(2).....try imagine that:
You know that you should fight in your Homeland.
You know that, from 1 August thousands of people in Warsaw look at the sky with hope....
But you fight in Holland and you do it so well as you can.
But later you are called by Montgomery a "Coward" and blamed for the defeat!
Just imagine all of that, before you writen something insulting about Polish Paratroopers.
bpiotrAgain 1 year ago
(1)Small Curio:
1Polish Parachute Brigade was oryginally formed as
support for National Uprising in Poland.
But british HQ by politiccal pressure, taked controle under this unit and add them into British Airborn Forces.
1August 1944 in Warsaw and rest of the Polish State started National Uprising called Operation "Tempest", but Eagles stay in Britain and later fight in Holland during Operation "Market Garden".......
bpiotrAgain 1 year ago
@bpiotrAgain The poles may have had a air brigade in 1944, but it was a brigade euipped, outfitted and supplied by Britain. Also the poles had no wings to fly to their country, the still needed some sort of airtransport, the RAF. So much for the hopes of thousands of people in warsaw, only fools would hope, a parachute drop into poland was a no go, completely unrealistic.
tomtom34b 7 months ago
the french should have shot petain. a damned traitor to the french. they should have listened to degaulle for his radical theories of massed armor and aircraft, but no!
mark3smle 1 year ago
Monty doesn't make brilliant performance in africa too..
"Supercharge" in Alamein and following pursuit after Romel wasn't acts of genius. I say in versus.
Adam7510 1 year ago
The General's honour documentary on youtube
fxv26 1 year ago
Gene Hackman is the man :-)
fxv26 1 year ago
Interesting. A relative of mine fought in this operation. He was in charge of a small part of it. I think he got all his bridges OK.
SugarTomAppleRoger 1 year ago
the movie was based on the book, did you bother to read it?
wcywing 2 years ago
someone did a documentary on Sosabowski and the Polish paratroopers. its called the General's Honor. you can find it on youtube. it has lots of good information.
wcywing 2 years ago 3
wcywing: I have seen this documentary about General Sosabowski. It's a good one indeed.
TheBeerNut1 1 year ago
I'm glad you liked it. it gives a whole new perspective on things.
wcywing 1 year ago
piacentini 2 years ago
does that mean i have as much of idea of tactics and planning as Montgomery? if you read most books, it described Market Garden as a disaster. poor planning, and everything else. if it was so successful, why did Monty and Browning blame Sosabowski and the Poles for the failure? 1st Airborne was missng three quarters of its forces. may i suggest you read some more books and the history channel. you like Monty, fine, he did some things really good; Market Garden is not one of them.
wcywing 2 years ago
no General Sosabowski, the Polish General. 90% of the goals may have been achieved but the cost was too high. Allies had more casualties than in the Normandy campaign. the plan looked good but to many ifs and overly optimistic planning. too many things went wrong, as General Powell has said, no plan survives the point of contact. it would have been great if it worked by all means.
wcywing 2 years ago
@gunnermac70 no Monty was just arrogant, overly optimistic, and did poor planning about Market Garden. not stupid though. should have listened to the Pole.
wcywing 2 years ago
Is difficult to fight with light tanks against 88 mm guns and Tiger panzers.
isCopernico 2 years ago
February 1946 the communist government in Warsaw announced that the Polish Armed Forces in the West are no more recognized as Polish. In 1948, General Sosabowski was demobilized.
He remained in exile in Britain and worked as a warehouse worker and a factory of television sets. He died September 25, 1967 in London. In 1969 General paratroopers, still faithful to their commander,brought his ashes to Poland,which were buried - according to his will - at the Military Cemetery at Powązki in Warsaw.
mishka783 2 years ago
Mishka783 , Remenber 1 thing,We gave Sosbowski a bronzen leeuw.
I am Dutch , and I won,t for get him.
The Englisch are still to day, Basterds the won,t give him the honeur he most gett..
Don, t forget the Pools!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MegaRebel100 2 years ago 3
Your commpilted rihgt , but I i duch man still blame the brittich , they are still to honeur him 60 years after , fuck the Englsch..
MegaRebel100 2 years ago 3
@MegaRebel100 how about fuck off and die? you didnt fight in the war and neither did i your a keyboard warrior
who's life means less than shit. well done
heartandsoul1988 1 year ago
"Oh, I'm sorry. General Sosabowski, you'll go with the Polish Brigade...." This fragment nicely sums up the attitude of Britain towards Poland during WWII.
mishka783 2 years ago 4
the US and British fucked those krauts up during ww2. We bombed their asses to smitherines.
quest8899 2 years ago
you are just as dumb as hitler was, mr. republician
blarbabar 2 years ago
I think people are too lazy to look for another word, like overzealous, or selfish (as many generals seemed to be!)
they see any misjudged foresight as "stupidity". People sometimes seem lack empathy for the strong willed.
nelson3300 2 years ago
GroundskeeperRonnie No The Poles were/ are Courageous men, as Pilots in the BoB they showed how courageous and determined they were, how ever then most polish fighters ie 95% did not use English, this was a drawback in, terms of Control & Communicate,
keirfree 2 years ago 4
True Lad. Courageous... yes we are but also... credulous... eh...wheel of history hates us cause many times fucked up my nation. :)
Tomacatos 2 years ago
baliw002 the book, that iniated this Film was written by an American C Ryan, at the time oof writing, very few knew of Ultra, a Brit name ,for reading German codes, Ryan knew nothing of the reasons Monty, No More,, Churchill pressed for this action, Patton was a liability, a loose Cannon, much in the said, Diva mode as was McArthur
keirfree 2 years ago
The only reasons he won were quantity of supplies, fuel, and men.
Huray4Mrdr 2 years ago
This film heavily suggests that the Polish brigade were treated as second class. I wonder if that was the case? Does anyone know?
GroundskeeperRonnie 2 years ago 3
great movie
22supremebeing22 3 years ago
Even Eisenhower isn't that stupid... lols... The Germans knew Monty was a stupid general and so they wanted him to lead the assault and not Patton. Lols. Even Patton voiced his displease in giving stupid Monty the lead. Had Patton been given all he wanted he could have been the one to take Berlin and not the Russians. No Berlin wall would have been created later.
baliw002 3 years ago
I agree with that, but then Patton may have severed ties with Russia once Berlin was seized-going by the movie " Patton"
zzhamstring 2 years ago 2
Patton wanted a head on charge at the siegfried line. The bulk of the German western warmachine was holed up there. He MIGHT have got to berlin quicker then Market Garden but at the cost of thousands off allied soldiers being literally "chucked" into the meat grinder.
There was a reason why Eisenhower picked Monty.
However in my opinion their great success as generals, came when the two worked together. Almost like completing a full circle.
randomusernamemygod 2 years ago
Eisenhower picked monty purely because of diplomatic reason's. you cannot have a supreme commander a american and commander of land forces also as a american. Eisenhower and patton went back to WW1 they were mates at west point. i think patton was a tank commander. the germans feared patton much more than Monty because of what he cold get out of his troops. market G failed simply because 30 corp did not go on to arhnem they stopped!
xwingclass 2 years ago
Patton did not meet Eisenhower until after ww1. Eisenhower choose Monty's plan to rapidly pursue the retreating german army northwards after the falaise pocket and gain a rapid bridgehead over the rhine as opposed to the siegfried line.
30 corps stopped because the SS Panzer divisions were attacking its flanks defended by paratroopers. Actualy read up history.
randomusernamemygod 2 years ago
@xwingclass
Monty was a fine commander in Africa but here in Western Europe.. well.. a schoolboy could have done a better job.
AmersfoortTristan 1 year ago
God bless Sosabowski and his Poles...
BlackCountryLad 3 years ago 10
I agree, Monty Fucked up, well no not fucked up...The idea was good enough, but to blame one of his subordinates for the failure of his task sickens me. (as in Monty blaming the poles for the failure)
The whole thing was 50/50 from the onset. It failed - how the fuck can you blame anybody for anything with those odds??
Montgomery was a Prick in this affair.
hoadmaback 3 years ago 6
Agreed but I hope you realise the Brits were amazing in WW2 despite that mistake.
JohnnyZenith 2 years ago 3
Yes, - I am an Ex Brit Soldier.
hoadmaback 2 years ago
@BlackCountryLad His brigade was ripped to pieces yet he fought on. Remarkable.
edavismookie25 1 year ago
After the battle Sosabowski was unjustly made a scapegoat for the failure of Operation Market Garden, following a critical evaluation by English Lt. Gen. Frederick Browning.He was accused of criticizing Field Marshal Montgomery and the Polish General Staff was forced to remove him as the commanding officer of his brigade on 27 December 1944. He was made the commander of guard troops and in July 1948 he was demobilised.
Seedgroup 3 years ago 3
A great respect for those,who know,that Poles are good soldiers.I`m Polish and we never turn traitor our friends.
muffidanger 3 years ago 29
British stiff upper lip and American arrogance can often end in a costly defeat.
That's why I always say,"I don't believe it till I see it".
LoneWolf051 3 years ago 6
@muffidanger You Poles sure do know how to fight. I really respect you. You didn't have half the resources that the French had nor a overseas empire yet you held on fighting the Germans against impossible odds and when you knew it was hopeless you got out all those that you could and fought on until the war ended especially during the 1944 uprising. Such great fighters. Your country was torn apart and yet you fought on. Remarkable.
edavismookie25 1 year ago
@edavismookie25
Thank you so much... and greetings from Poland
qbarycerz 1 year ago
@qbarycerz No. Thank you. Your beautiful country was wedged between two great beasts and yet Polish armed forces accomplished so much. Consider this: The Polish brigade at Arnhem, the Polish aces that fought in British aerial squadrons, and Polish troops at Monte Cassino. Absolutely remarkable. Take care and greetings from the United States.
edavismookie25 1 year ago 3
@muffidanger god bless your dead. I am American, and I will not forget your sacrafice.
cactuschris2002 1 year ago
Postscript..
I have read the comments of ae62ea, nothing to do with my post at all but he does seem to be an asshole.
sureblue77 3 years ago
Montgomery was a fine commander. Market Garden was a brilliant idea but ahead of it's time. The operation was worth a shot. It would have ended WWII in 1944 before the Russians got to Berlin. The British, American, and Polish guys nearly pulled it off. Britain didn't want war so we didn't prepare. Had we done so, over by 1943.
God bless Sowsabowski and his gallant men. Churchill faught for Poland at Yalta but was pushed aside. The US and the USSR had the world by the balls in those talks.
sureblue77 3 years ago
Roosevelt was foaming at the mouth to enter the war. (He was an international banker who stood to gain BILLIONS)
Look at what he was doing to provoke the likes of Pearl harbor. (USA claims neutrality then starts to openly suply every anti-axis country with arms & equipment - WTF!!!!)
Why did he ignore the warnings from Australian Intelligence about the Japanese Carrier force moving towards Hawaii?
Think about it.
hoadmaback 3 years ago 4
@goldyn12345
You don't have to be outstandingly clever to assume that problems may arise when trying to do 63 miles in two days behind enemy lines.
@SillyGrandpa
Of course they didn't have to do anything. But it was our war too. And it's true we were sold - especially by Roosevelt.
But the dumbest arsehole of all was Monty! He ignored reports about German devisions in the region. He was just a cocky dumbarse competing with Patton (whom I honestly respect).
Jamjumetley 3 years ago 2
thats lex luther trying to sobatage mission
diggerdog1009 3 years ago 2
sosabowski was smart man!!! he new that this operation is doomed to failure
koniu5 3 years ago 5
when Sowsabowski says Poles are smart, was that a joke?
Wittmann73 4 years ago
off course it wasnt,poles are smart,lol.
goldyn12345 4 years ago 2
first of all, Herr Wittmann, you have misspeled general's name. His name was Sosabowski. Second of all, he said "I am a Pole, considered by some to be smart." By the way, there is some suspicion that Michael Wittmann was killed by soldiers of the 1st Polish Armored Brigade. Quite ironic, isn't it?
palladin11 4 years ago 2
Comment removed
Wittmann73 1 year ago
i like the way that von runstedt doesnt rate monty at all.the attack will be with patton,even eisenhower isnt that stupid.
goldyn12345 4 years ago
how come the polish general could tell it was doomed to failure and the british and yanks couldnt?
goldyn12345 4 years ago 2
This is a movie. In reality most generals voiced opposition concerning the feasibility of this plan. There were so many flaws in it not the least of which was Monty thinking he could advance that far that fast. In the end it turned in to a race to save the remnants of the British Air Borne division who had held out far longer than they were told they would have to.
GordonofSeattle 4 years ago
Most notably the germans falling for the allies misinformation campaign before D-Day. So it was the collossus project at Bletchley park that won the code breaking war. A soully British invention, by british inventers.
As for the poles contribution it was gratefully received, but they found the relationship was equally beneficial to them at the time also, as their country was under the nazi boot they were only to glad to grab on to britains shirt tail in the war against the nazis.
thedogsgonads1 4 years ago
the dogs: The Poles didn't have to do anything. They gained nothing by fighting for the Allies. The US and Britain sold them out anyway.
SillyGrandpa 3 years ago 6
The poles couldnt wait to fight for the allies and get their own back on the buggers that invaded their land. What were they going to do when they got sanctuary in Britain? Sit out the rest of the war, while their country went down the pan! I dont think so.
The poles wanted to fight on and they did.
Bless them all brave men.
PintJohnBull 3 years ago 34
Invading their land? Not only... Specially for the refusal of beeing sent to help the Warsaw uprising made them maybe a bit more bitter..
viking303 3 years ago 3
The most important code breaking machine during the war was the British made "collossus" invented by Engineer Tommy flowers and mathamatician max newman both English men. Without collossus the war would of dragged on another eighteen months, and it also saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Collossus was also succesfull in unscrambling secret german transmissions that allowed top British millitery brass to work out hitlers battle strategy and adjust their own plans accordingly.
thedogsgonads1 4 years ago
Dammit, 'nother update. British captured U-110 on 9 May '41 with an Enigma and some codebooks.
ae62ea 4 years ago
Just read U-505 was captured on June 4, 1944.
ae62ea 4 years ago
ae62ea: You might want to "google" the names Marian Rejewski, Henryk Zygalski and Jerzy Rozycki to find out more about these three Polish mathematicians/cryptologists and what they did to crack the Enigma codes. Interesting reading !!!
ScrewyLouie666 4 years ago 5
When one finds out about the treason within Hitler's own ranks: Black Orchestra, Red Orchestra, Canaris, Werther, from '39 on...even open radio transmissions don't seem such a big deal. Code or no code -the Allies, and Stalin, got their Intel.
ae62ea 4 years ago
I don't doubt that the cracking of the Enigma was a mathematical achievement...I'm not familiar with the exact timeline: whether it was sufficiently "broken" before or after U-505's capture.
ae62ea 4 years ago
The Polish general Sosabowski was right all along !!!
ScrewyLouie666 4 years ago 2
Whoops! Methinks an error have I made...Wellington really said: "Blücher! Thank God! I was gettin' me ARSE kicked"!
ae62ea 4 years ago
also to me, the german army at that time was the best army in the world.the russians were a rabble,millions were being encircled.
goldyn1234 4 years ago
hitler overstreched himself,he took on 2 superpowers in the usa and ussr,he might have been able to deal with the russians but the yanks as well,no chance.
goldyn1234 4 years ago
And i will tell you now hitler wasnt quarter of the leader the duke of wellington, or napoleon was. Attack russia in winter??! What a twat.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
if he didnt swing his panzers south to kiev and kept going on to moscow then who knows, he might have won the war in the east.
goldyn1234 4 years ago
Monocle, "guardsman"?, dipshit...Is this a British problem? Or just yers? Is the facade of Brtish "martyrdom" so fragile at this point? When the fuck did I defend American actions in WW2? Then you bring up A-bombing? WTF? Spaight spilt his guts (boasted actually) of THAT WHICH YOU DENY. Yer full o' shit,mate. British "Integrity" on display here, haha
ae62ea 4 years ago
Another "truth" from monocle,(Oops!) June 22. Yup. Dead of Winter. Where are you? Australia? That's OK..We know what you "meant" to say in yer muddled way. Hitler was a very capable military leader. All his early campaigns, unhindered by treason or the Red Orchestra, were successes. You may read Skorzeny's memoirs. Wellington: "Blücher! Thank God! I was gettin' my ass kicked!" haha
ae62ea 4 years ago
Their encouraged to take Careers and when they hit 40 they wonder where its all gone.Democracy!
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
As for democracy i totally agree, My democracy i bet is very different to your democracy, and its the same all over. Afghanistan dont even want democracy. But bush is saying yes you do. Now thats democracy. I think the problem is democracy is still very young and its very much running before you can walk. Its also like women, they dont have any democracy. They have been cheated out of been contented with been in the home and married, with children.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
My view: A lynch mob is a perfect example of Democracy in action.
ae62ea 4 years ago
Yes i am still a bit sore about been pushed off the new world in the late 1770s, still cant be helped i suppose. As for bomber harris i did think you were unfair in your comment associating him in the way you implied. Harris and the RAF were fighting a war, and i know the dresdon issue is very sensitive with people but when London, and other british citys and people were bombed and killed we have to take the attitude "Never mind, stiff upper lip, tradition will win at the end of the day."
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
Let's be real: Though the US had "concentration camps" just like Germany they surely weren't the same. And in the same way, comparing Coventry or London to Dresden or Hamburg is, well, need I go on? I myself define a "war crime" as the intentional targeting of non-combatants. Surprising how many people want exceptions after I say that...
ae62ea 4 years ago
As for your opinions on dresden comparison to london been bombed, one death is one to many. Do you think the germans would have done the same to us?? Damn right they would of. Twice. As i said previously we were fighting a war, and as sorry as i feel for the innocent non-combatants wherever they are from, war is not going to show that courtesy. But let me be very clear i hate war of any description, period.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
"Hitler only undertook the bombing of British civilian targets after the RAF had commenced bombing German civilian targets". - J.M. Spaight, Bombing Vindicated, 1944
ae62ea 4 years ago
All you need do is read British Air Ministry Secretary J.M. Spaight's own words on the bombing exchange to find out that Britain began it (really perfected in the 20's in Iraq) and escalated it. Read Spaight's words...Churchill gave a speech (14July41)saying he'd turn down a German offer to limit bombs to the combat zone only. "You do your worst and..."
ae62ea 4 years ago
Tell me why it doesnt suprise me you have quoted J.M.Spaight at me? Again we were at WAR!, Britain never started it, and what would your country have done under the circumstances? Well you showed that in Hiroshema? So dont throw stones at glass houses.
Anyway this conversation has run its course as far as im concerned, im not going round in circles with you about it anymore.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
The British have done a lot for the Jews. From Balfour to fighting Hitler... and you were rewarded: at the King David Hotel, Lord Moyne in Cairo...numerous British servicemen, here and there. Rightly killed, I suppose. "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter", yes?
ae62ea 4 years ago
Allright,allright i get your points, first of all you have answered the order of st. john question. The mere fact we are ignorent of it today, means we will never know, but you will know ae62ea the plans and dreams hitler had for the world after the war was completed. As for elliott no disrespect intended, if you also remember in the film Ryan o'neil reminds us to stop sitting round drinking tea all day. These cliches and stereo typing im afraid will stick with us forever more.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
I realize everyone gets "stereotyped" in film. Well, almost everyone... I don't know of Hitler's "plans" for "the world". Too many lies have been told in 60+ years for me to believe the self-appointed "teachers" who also told me the Germans did Katyn, human soap, lampshades, death by "steaming" (at first)...4 million at Auschwitz (at first). Now they back-pedal to save a shred of credibility..."bollocks" to that
ae62ea 4 years ago
But you know this film for me gives the yanks a real short straw. The scene when you see Elliott Gould tear arsing toward the bridge, with a cigar clenched in his teeth. Cracks me up everytime, only the Americans.
Mind you i would rather be as i am now than be under the Nazi order of St.John. And you my friend wouldnt be an american, you might be an awesome german, but not american. Ah the world of if's,if's,if's.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
Yes, Elliot is a good comedic character. As a vet myself, to think he might "represent" a US soldier to some in the audience makes me want to "take back" my service. Misrepresentation is "in the eye of the beholder", I guess. What is the Nazi order of "St. John"?
ae62ea 4 years ago
Only last year did britain eventually settle the bill with America. But again it has to be said half the equipment we bought off you was shitte anyway.
Not much has changed today your still fighting for money in Iraq, and anyone who thinks it is still regime change as you rightfully said it is lamentable. Same time tomorrow professer ae62ea? Maybe you'll succeed where Mr blairs Education system failed.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
From what I understand, the British were rather happy with our Corsairs, even flew them off their carriers before we did. "Settle the bill"? OK...didn't know ya were still paying us, things are so fucked up here the very idea of "accounting" is laughable...
ae62ea 4 years ago
Monocle,my friend, you proceed with a few presumptions: That I support US involvement in (several) wars, whether for "regime change","money" or something else. Never said I did. You read "American" on my profile and think (that means) I'm a Bush-backing "cowboy"...certainly not after reading my scribblings... Things can't be THAT bad in Britain that they'd stoop to enlisting my advice, but ya did give me a chuckle:)
ae62ea 4 years ago
Well theres an eye opener if ever there was one, before your last comments you came across as someone who was mad with history, yeah you definetely sometimes have a point but then you also come across with envy also.. Was it the fact that before 1917 the only significant history in the new world was cowboys and indians, while the british went back to rubbing shoulders with the romans and beyond?
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
Half of my ancestors are English. Perhaps they "rubbed shoulders" with the Romans, too. If that occurred, I'm not overly proud of it. I'm more proud of my other forefathers who destroyed 3 Roman legions in 9 A.D. thus making a future England possible.
ae62ea 4 years ago
"envy"? What did I say that has me sounding envious? Some would say that whole "democratic government" thing (1775-on) was fairly significant beyond just "cowboys and indians". Sorry if you're still sore about being "pushed off" back then, but really, I wasn't even born yet, nor am I a big fan of "democracy" at all costs :)
ae62ea 4 years ago
The envy remark was triggered off because when i tried to share my experience with the old timer in Israel with the youtube viewers, immedietely there was descripences about not just my knowledge of the historonics of who stood alone at the beginning of the war, which U.K did still after france had fallen. But the old man would have said the same to you,me,canadian,dutchman all he was doing was trying to reach out and be grateful nothing more.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
I'm a half-German who's unfortunately (or fortunately?) quite familiar with Ilya Ehrenburg, someone who Israel/Jews will not denounce. Show me the Jew who cries for Dresden. I've never heard or seen such a creature. You can share the story, but not the "experience". My "experience" with the "Israelites" would differ from yours. Does that make it less valid?
ae62ea 4 years ago
Your right about the Jews been self preservation about themselves, my experience out there was nothing more than buming around a kibbutz and taking in sights etc. But they wont cry for dresdon the same way they wouldnt cry for anyone else, just because they have selfish, greedy qualities doesnt mean i want to go and hurt one. As i said i was just airing the story, nothing in it.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
"just because they have selfish, greedy qualities doesnt mean i want to go and hurt one"
What are you inferring here, monocle? Did I not state a (rather sweeping) definition of what I consider unacceptable? As in a "war crime"? What's up?
ae62ea 4 years ago
What am i inferring here?? about selfish qualities was me, i was talking about me. Not you, or anyone else ME! Do i live in a bubble? No i will leave that for the man that reads about goats to kids while his country is been attacked. I know of britains short comings and theres plenty of them, but listening to you i prefer my boat to yours, any day of the week.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
You are 100% correct that Britain continued the war after France surrendered. Alone, until 22June41 when Churchill found a reason to love "red", and forgave Stalin for invading the eastern half of Poland. And Finland. And the Baltics....
ae62ea 4 years ago 3
And that period alone up to june 41 i know for a fact was a trying testing time for britain? Why because i have spoken to vets, chelsea pensioners, and even those who were at home. And that is why i still stand by my remarks of the steadfastness, courage,and integrity shown by the British people back then. I know it means nothing to you because you have allready stated that, but it means a lot to me. And it would to you if your people lived and survived it.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
"trying testing time"? You don't live in a bubble do you? Have you seen pictures of Germany postwar? "integrity"? Really? Read about the British behaviour, "chivalry" at Bleiburg, when no more "nazis" were a threat? If this is British "integrity"...where do I go to turn in my English heritage and exchange it for something worth a shit?
ae62ea 4 years ago
Im not feeling the love here man, first of all if you look back at the previous comments i was making reference to the time we were alone during the war steadfastness etc.
British Behaviour???!! yes its extremely clear now you have got issues with Britain, every thing i have put down you have scoffed at it. Fine your entitled to your opinion, but thats all it is a voice in the wilderness just like us all.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
While Stalin packed men,women, children on trains for Siberia in the Baltics, shot tens of thousands others, British ranted about Hitler. That's British "integrity" in action. "double-plus" Bollocks
ae62ea 4 years ago
ae62ae: Siberia is NOT in the Baltics !!!
ScrewyLouie666 4 years ago
screwylouie, I apologize for the structure of my sentence. I was trying to fit a lot into the "500 word" space. I meant: the victims were "put on trains in the Baltics HEADED TO Siberia." I grew up with Latvian friends and I'm very well aware of [world] geography.
ae62ea 4 years ago
First, Monocle tells a lie: That the British ALONE stood up for Poland. And quite a lie it IS. In fact, it wasn't even ALL of Poland as "noble" Britain didn't declare war on Stalin who invaded the eastern half. Fucking HYPOCRITES in those Isles,eh?
ae62ea 4 years ago 2
Actually Churchill was the only one to see the threat of the Russians. Hence the much criticised invasion of Italy which American generals lamented about. Churchills foresight made him believe a left turn at the Gothic line would get the Allies to Germany before the Russians.
Jpc118 4 years ago
As for your presumptions remark im only quoting to you the chronicles of peoples experiences some of them american even. I dont expect either how i perceive myself to mean anything to you, but if the boot was on the other foot you would be expecting the homage even more than you do now.
However the time will come shortly when our arses will be booted out of iraq, and well return with the tail between our legs.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
Last reports were, I think, that your "arses" have already left Iraq. "We", that is, George W., aint quite that bright...Or is he serving someone other than the US taxpayer? There are some 14 (semi?)permanent bases in Iraq (alleged), so young stupid Americans may be dying for some time to come. I "expect" no homage from anyone. It's never worth the wait.
ae62ea 4 years ago
yes we have withdrawn from the palace to the airport in Iraq, and total withdraw is im sure inevetible. As an ex Guardsman myself i also despair and have lost confidence in British foreign policies, but what fears me the most is the aftermath when our "Arses" are all back home what happens then. (Religon etc)
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
If you wonder about the aftermath when/IF! the US leaves Iraq: civil war, of course. Who didn't see THAT coming?
ae62ea 4 years ago
I met an old polish jew in Israel, and he loved everybody British, because we were the only ones that declared war on Germany at the invasion of poland. I know there wasnt a lot done at first initially but it was the gesture made that impressed him most.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
Either you or that old Jew don't know your history. France also declared war on Germany, same time as Britain, 3 Sept '39. But for various reasons, including French opposition to the Iraq mess, I doubt the Jews would "remember" that intially French soldiers bled for them.
ae62ea 4 years ago
No, i would go back and think again chum Britain kicked off first and foremost. However you are right when you say there are a lot of people out there with very short memories, of sacrifices made.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
Discard my last remark ae62ea, i know what you are saying now. I do acknowledge france and U.K. went off together, i was sidetracked with something else. I was only airing this old fellahs story out that was all, but i still feel there are a lot of people out there with short memories.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
I read a few years ago, that Tony Blair (if I recall rightly) was lamenting that the young in UK had liitle knowledge (from schooling) of British history: re:WW2, Churchill's "legacy". No doubt, I'd disagree w/Tony on many things. If he was right about this lack of schooling...who's to blame? (I don't think Hitler planned far enough ahead to sabotage the British school system)
ae62ea 4 years ago
Well i know one thing at least we didnt sell out to hitler when the opportunity was offered, i am right in saying we were the only country that were offered a deal before the war started, and i think i'm right in saying we told him to shove it, resulting even to this day our souls intact, showing steadfastness and integrity. Your upset because america have never been looked on with that regard. Profit is all you have ever been about,Like i said in my earlier remark, short memories.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
Many here ARE upset that Bush has squandered what good will the US may have had after 9/11. I watch the BBC (Katty Kay and the gang) and I think they do report this American concern. I never backed this "war" and I predicted this turn of events back when we (and YOU) first went into Iraq. Well, 2nd time for us, 3rd time for the "non aggressive" British... Re:"Upset": I am not pleased with some things. How "we" are regarded has nothing to do with MY actions or policies, so I don't care...
ae62ea 4 years ago
I wonder... if the "British Empire" lost a chunk of territory (on the Home Island) and that part of its' people were put under foreign rule (as in the "Polish" corridor), would the English simply roll over? Maybe they would...Today!
ae62ea 4 years ago
There is a speech by Hitler (6 Oct 39), where he again offers peace to BOTH England and France and reaffirms German recognition of Alsace-Lorraine as French. As for "not selling out", your "integrity" and "souls",etc.: It is said that Höss (last Auschwitz commandant) slept soundly at night in his cell at Nuremberg. In like manner, I've never heard Arthur Harris lost sleep over HIS deeds, either. So how you perceive yourself means nothing to me.
ae62ea 4 years ago
And i think youll find that frances offer and conditions of peace was certainly different to that of the U.K'S. As for Bomber harris and hoss well lets just say your way off the mark with that one.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
What did Hitler say to the French that differed? (If I'm not aware of the particulars, you can direct me to the quote, yes?) As for Harris and Höss, well, "one man's terrorist...."
ae62ea 4 years ago
However as for hitler he knew britain would be a tougher nut to crack than france, not only geography wise but also for the Nazi obsession for scotland also. And i do remember hitler tried to keep the dialouge open with Britain right up till paris was succesfully taken by them.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
"the Nazi obsession for Scotland"? The first video in my favorites is a newsreel of David McLean and his mother who "hosted" Hess after his flight. It's rather charming. But "obsession"...could you explain? (Also see my video of Battle of Britain...)
ae62ea 4 years ago
I have read, watched on documentries and been told over the years that some of Hitler's cronies would be guareented Estates in parts of the highlands of Scotland, they saw themselves as lairds, and gentleman of the manor, we would call it shortbread scotland, dreamers. I know that it all comes under the world of if's and would'ves now, but the Nazis had plans to divvy up the land and give it out like xmas presents to the high racky.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
"estates" for his "cronies", "lairds". You're doing exactly what I was complaining about: repeating ill-founded, unfounded slander. "lampshades, soap, etc." have been withdrawn... Show me the facts, the memos (not forged) saying his "cronies" would get Scotland. Come on, man, I can't type in larger letters. I've seen ALL kinds of "facts" on the telly too --since then abandoned by the hoaxers... So what?
ae62ea 4 years ago
How do you know what agendas were in place after the war? Again i repeat its if's and would'ves. Unfounded slander? Now who wants to get into a bubble, Are you saying if the U.K. had fallen, that hitler would of said "Aww thats fine you keep buck palace, Gleneagles,and all the castles of the U.K. were happy as we are" BOLLOX! and you know it.
Monocledmutineer1 4 years ago
Himmler was actually an MI6 agent named Henry Higgleston. His task was to promote resistance to German authorities by oppressive policing on the continent. Diana Spencer was Higgleston's grand niece... Higgleston himself retired to Fortis Green. In his 60's he helped his young friend Ray Davies start up a band and even wrote some songs. Oh, and the British fought a "clean" war. Hey, it's fun to make shit up!:)
ae62ea 4 years ago
Monocledmutineer: The Brits didn't do anything for Poland. Actually, it's the other way around. It's the Poles who did more for Britain. The Polish pilots were a force in the Battle Of Britain and they also cracked the initial Enigma codes !!!
ScrewyLouie666 4 years ago 3
Didn't the Poles also smuggle an Enigma machine out to England in '39? And the codes were later seized off a captured U-Boat in '41 or so?
ae62ea 4 years ago 2
ae62ea: The story that I'm aware of concerning the Enigma machine is that the Poles handed working copies to the British and the French in Poland a couple of weeks before the invasion of Poland in September of 1939. The Brits and French were stunned but grateful at the same time. The Poles handed over all they knew to their "allies".
ScrewyLouie666 4 years ago 3
We kept to our word though in declaring war on germany though, and what could we have done more? U.K. couldnt send a force at that time to help them.And what the hell did america do? Even less, except sell us shit equipment at sky rocket prices. As for the RAF it was very good also for propaganda to have polish pilots with the Brits it was the most up yours we could give to the Nazis, and we also had Aussies,New zealanders,canadians,south africans,and even americans.
thedogsgonads1 4 years ago
such a sloppy plan,montgomery was usually so cautious it was like he was rushing,so he could beat patton to berlin.
goldyn123 4 years ago
The idea was sound, however, bad planning, bad weather and the over ambitious ego of Monty. Doomed from the start! RIP all who gave thier life and serive in Market Garden. Utrinque Paratus
backrowman 4 years ago
After the battle at Arnhem Sosabowski was unjustly made a scapegoat for the failure of Operation Market Garden, following a critical evaluation by Browning. He was accused of criticizing Montgomery and the Polish General Staff was forced to remove him as the commanding officer of his brigade in December 1944. He was made the commander of guard troops and in July 1948 he was demobilised.
Lonette 4 years ago 2
i didnt know that about sosabowski,they should have listened to him.browning was so arrogant,he even forgot about sosabowski at the meet 2.03
goldyn123 4 years ago 2
If anyone of you is interested in what Polish Veterans who took part in Operation Market Garden have to say about U.K. then type " Polish veterans in Driel " in Utube and watch the very end.
cvc42 4 years ago 2