Secular One-State Solution (Palestine/Israel)

[SaidAhmad]

I don't know about "ousting the Jews" but we certainly don't need a "Jewish" state or any state whose very definition requires policies of exclusion to be written into law and certain ethnicities targeted for unjust but legally sanctioned treatment. Talk about state sponsored terrorism; Israel has been creating terrorists since 1948. Want to fight and eliminate Arab terrorists? Eliminate Israel as a Jewish state. Call it Israel if you like but it CANNOT be a Jewish state.

[cpeigney94]

@SaidAhmad Until Muslin and Christian countries separate Church from state, I don't see why Eretz Yisrael, a tiny piece of land, should quit being a Jewish State.

[ryan84160]

@cpeigney94 So your argument is "others do it so we can to"?

Why should Israel quit being a Jewish state ? Because not all citizens of Israel are Jewish. Should India declare itself a hindu state ? Should Ireland declare itself a Roman Catholic state and require all of its citizens to declare allegiance to the pope ?

[cpeigney94]

@ryan84160 The characterization and recognition of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state is already deeply embedded in the country's 1948 Declaration of Independence and 1992 “Basic Law on Human Dignity and Liberty”. From its inception Israel has been a Jewish state without compromising the rights and freedoms of its citizens, regardless of ethnicity or religion. This will ensure that immigrants who choose to move to Israel understand the connection between the Jews and the State of Israel.

[ryan84160]

@cpeigney94 Well if you tell people that they are now living under a Jewish state,that does violate their rights.It would be as if the United States declared itself a Christian or a White nation while still "respecting" the rights of blacks or non Christians to exist.This is especially egregious since these other people are not simply immigrants, but have lived there for thousands of years.The only rational solution in my mind is for a secular,religious and ethnically neutral one state solution.

[shlomof]

@ryan84160

One state solution has died forever, see Yugoslavia. Even 2 close people as the czechs and slovaks decided on partition.

[ryan84160]

@shlomof I am aware of this. I know the two state solution will most not happen anytime in the near future, I just think it would have been the best option from the very start. Simply because ethnic nationalism exists does not make it a good thing. Patriotism, Ethnic,Racial and religious supremacism are all horrible concepts in my opinion.

[shlomof]

@ryan84160

A bi national state wasn't any option in Palestine . The palestinians and their leader the mufti Amin al Husseini, a close friend of Hitler, wanted all jews who came after 1939 back to the countries they came from.And in the best case , as they were the majority in Palestine , they wanted the jews as what is called d'himmis, leaving under arab protection. Now , with the turmoil in the arab world, just imagine how the life of the jews would have been among these barbarians.

[ryan84160]

@cpeigney94 Though I am not delusional, I can't see this happening anytime in the near future. It is just my opinion that it should have been this way from the very start.

[cpeigney94]

@ryan84160 I don't know if it will be applied, but I don't see what's so terrible about. If they don't like the Jewish state, don't go, no one forces them to go.

[ryan84160]

@cpeigney94 Go there ? They live there. There are millions of non Jewish citizens of Israel. 20% of Israel is made up of Arab Christians, Muslims, Druze and Bahai. Why should these people swear allegiance to a Jewish state?

[shlomof]

@ryan84160

Jewish is not only a religion , it's as well an ethnicity.In fact most jews aren't at all religious , when Hitler sent them to Auschwitz he sent the ultra orthodox Neturei Karta as well as the atheist socialists and communists.

A jewish state is no different from a polish state, a romanian state, etc.

[ryan84160]

@shlomof Yes, of course it is both, I did not say it wasn't. However, unlike other ethnicities, religion is THE essential part of Judaism. One can be Jewish, Protestant or Catholic pole, but you can not be a Catholic Jew. I could become Jewish tomorrow if I wanted simply by converting.

Why not have an Israeli state for all Israelis instead of a Jewish one ?

[shlomof]

@ryan84160

The arabs don't want to recognize Israel as a jewish state not because of the religion, their intention is to perpetuate the conflict.If Israel is not a jewish state why not allow the return of the arab refugees, which actually means the end of Israel.

[cpeigney94]

@ryan84160 Because they live in a Jewish state ^.^ And if they don't want to, I think we would all be happy to see them leave. We cannot offer this, because that's their decision to take; but if they want to leave we would not try to make them to stay. The law is ment to be applied to people who want to become citizens, I'm not sure how it works for current citizens. Either way, I don't care much!

[ryan84160]

@cpeigney94 This is no different than saying it would be perfectly alright for Ireland to pass law mandating that all citizens swear loyalty to the pope when not all citizens of the country are roman catholic. It is the very idea of a Jewish state that is so offensive.

[cpeigney94]

@ryan84160 The law would be asking to recognize Israel as a Jewish State; it's by no means demanding to convert to the religion. Aw, you find it offensive? Oh Allah, that sucks.

[shlomof]

@ryan84160

They swear allegiance to a jewish state not in the sense of religion , but to the state belonging to the jewish ethnicity, as in Romania for example are swearing allegiance to the state belonging to the romanians , though the hungarians which are a big minority are still demanding part of it, Transilvania.

There are countries where every morning school starts with the students singing the national anthem , in Israel no arab citizen is forced to sing Hatikva, the israeli anthem.

[ryan84160]

@shlomof If the Arabs had defeated Israel, would you be willing to swear loyalty to the Islamic nation? A sate should always be secular and should be a state of all of its citizens. Should Switzerland force all of its citizens to swear loyalty to the state of German citizens ? When you force all the citizens to wear loyalty to a particular religion or ethnicity, you are essentially say the government is here to serve and protect them first and the rest are secondary citizens.

[shlomof]

@ryan84160

You are so naive... If the arabs had defeated Israel , if I would be willing to swear loyalty or not , wouldn't have been any issue, as all the jews would have been killed as were killed all those who didn't succeed to flee from the parts of Palestine which were occupied by Jordan and Egypt.

[montezoma]

@shlomof

Why Tunisia or morocco dont kill the jews who stayed there. I wonder why, cause arabs only goal in this life is to kill jews, that's whats they are born to do.

[shlomof]

@montezoma

Why did the palestinians kill the jews in Hebron in 1929, who lived there for many hundreds of years and weren't at all zionists?

[montezoma]

@shlomof

palestinians are not angels, they have their share of stupidity. but hey let's always remember hebron massacre while forget the 400 palestinian villages that were erased from the face of the earth

[shlomof]

@montezoma

The palestinians rejected in 1948 UN res 181 and went to war to kill the jews and destroy Israel . As the jews fought back , the palestinians fled to the neighboring countries, vowing to go on with the war against Israel , refusing any compromise and not recognizing the right of Israel to exist in the Middle East as a jewish state. As their villages were in total ruins because of the war , what was Israel supposed to do , build them from the scratches or evacuate the ruins ?

[shlomof]

@ryan84160

Don't you think it's quite stupid to compare singing a national anthem with cutting of the heads of women?

No jew in Romania had any problem with singing every morning at school the national anthem which glorifies the romanian nation, which by definition belongs to the orthodox church.

And the same was in other countries.

[Hairysteed]

@cpeigney94 Zionism doesn't always mean religious Zionism. Many of the founders of Israel were atheists and were Jewish only by ethnicity.

[MrJehadisme]

He has one thing wrong, the Palestinian view isn't based on religion, it's based on orgin.

[jtdyman]

nice moslem propganda, islam has oppressed the christians and have force them to leave gaza. so ask your peaceful government to build more bunkers for everyone.

[MrJehadisme]

@jtdyman

Thats untrue, we have not forced anyone out. we aided prosecuted christians because we preach tolerance. If you want to make a point try using facts.

[babanormal33]

no no no no, Spirituality is the answer!

[Hairysteed]

If the question is "how can we keep our society from advancing beyond bronze-age?" then yes, spirituality is the answer

[danofsydney]

well articulated argument John

[jtdyman]

two state solution is the only way, until both sides agree to the government style. islamic armies invaded by the sword ,the land when there were jews and christians living there. so how moslems can claim it. the jews and christians have a claim ,too.

[ayyad13]

The christians are also being terrorized by israels oppression. The christians that live there are arabs and the attacks are facing ALL arabs not weeding out just muslims.

[NationalAnarchist23]

It's a solution that may be all well and good but Islam and Judaism are completely different values to "Western" secular, atheist values. I wouldn't expect Muslims or Jews to live under a single State ruled by liberal-Democracy and gold.

[MrJehadisme]

@NationalAnarchist23

Correction, both require the gov't to listen to the people, and if the people say they want a secular state, then the gov't must become secular.