hmm....the lady on the chair looks hmong, old guy looks hmong but speaks mienh..something about picking firewood and weaving baskets.
but the two with the red is Yao.
Also you guys had an interesting conversations about the Kim Mun and Iu-Mienh...everytime I read the word "Kim Mun" it reminds me of the Mienh word "Gemh Mienh" but we call them Janx-Cun-Zeiv =\
I understand that there are vital pieces of information we've both collected that may or may not be compatible or equivalent to one another; so therefore your view of how these perspectives work are not the same as mine.
Again, structures, influences, migration routes, which ever social, economical, or political stand point they're from, a strong attachment somewhere concludes the ties and identity of these people. Lastly Theresa, I appreciate your feedback so much. It shows me your appreciation, and as well as your knowledge within these studies. From this point on, please share more with me and the rest of us, your findings and information.
The Mienh & Mun specifically build up of at least 80%; with holding the most sub-branches of their own out of all the other or minor subdivsions (and dialects) which are recognized as well; this is in the sense, for example, where Yao-Miao dialects may come into play. The Red Branch of Southern China and the island of Hainan almost resemble that of nothing but the Miao Nationality (physically); speaking a dialect belonging to the that of the Miao, but are entirely under the Yao umbrella.
But why, of mainly these (2) sub-branches, must we appoint questions; when we have other surrounding minority groups who are also culturally intertwined with the Yao Nationality?
Other than eliminating all the factors of what makes them different, there is a common basis to their identity in which we may or may not find in the direction of examing similarities and differentiations of their belief(s) of origin. It is not to adequately determine if their myth of origin actually took place, occurred, or existed, but it should be to recognize and evaluate if one's story is equivalent to the other.
Agriculture, ideally, is different; and whether if they be "slash and burn" farmers or cultivators, or settled amongst the wet rice terrace fields, or maintined other variations of farming techniques based on ecosystem differences you've also mentioned, and as well as many other minor and/or great details which outrule them from equally seen as the "Mienh" sub-branch; what is it that makes them linked to one another?
The crucial point I was trying to state however is that the common and recognizably significance found by most and entirely in all of the "Yao" sub-branches, which is almost so vital in identifying these groups, is one's "own" sustained belief of origin. How does this group's belief differ from this one? How do "they" believe they were formed? It tells us a great deal in who they are, and perhaps enables us to find their lineage or link to the specifc ethnicity they claim to be from.
Well, to be straight forward about the idea I wanted to present is that civilizations shouldn't indeed be determined based on mythical/symbolic icons, legends, any of the supernatural; they impose conflicts. Therefore, to be technical about these studies, we do need to turn to geologists, archaeologists, anthro, socio, etc, etc and their specific findings. So to come to an understanding, I agree with the information you've presented.
Stories of migration and their routes differ as well (the story of the Sea Journey is not shared with the Mun). However, they do worship and have the common belief of the same or similar mythical origin as the Yao. Which therefor, and based upon other common structures, substantiates them as a part of the Yao ethnic family.
I am not sure on the exact wording of the sub-branch "Mun," but I believe they might be recognized as the "Janx-Cingh Zeiv" in the Mienh language.
There are differences within religion, the way each sect of their own form of Taoism is practiced differs greatly. It shows that the form of Taoism practiced by the Mun is the one closely practiced in Taiwan and Fujian; being that the Mun claimed to have reached the areas of Fujian before.
(continued...)The way they do agriculture is also different (and is logical based on location~different fertility rates of soil ). I do believe that many of the sub-groups were once a single united people. However, because the Yao are historically a semi-nomadic people who constantly, moved separation allowed new cultures to form.
Kim Mun Lantin, Lan Tin, Lantien which fall underneath the "Mun" sub-branches of the Yao Nationality comprises as a whole seperate sub-branch, but has strong and similar ties to the same origin as the Mienh or the "Yao" as a whole.
It's difficult to be able to explain this observance of Yao groups, sub-branches, roots/lineages, but in trying to sum this is up briefly in order to understand, is that Iu-Mien and the Kim-Mien dialects which are preferably known as the Pan-Yao branch are of all virtually noticed as the "Mienh" people, classification, etc. (there are minor differientiations here and there in the spoken dialogue of Mienh depending upon region and outside influences that is).
Well the dialog that is being spoken is actually "Mien". However, the woman who is sitting down sewing and such is probably who the man is referring to as the Black Hmong. I know for a fact the lang. being spoken is Mien, because I can understand it very clearly.
Well, they are (2) distinct/separate ethnic minority groups that can be found in Asia, and now in the U.S. There may be cultural traits, and structures that seem similar(similar, but not the same) amongst these (2) groups,(being that their surroundings and influences could be similar as well) and the dialects that both groups use differ fairly well from each other but are categorized underneath the same language family tree/root: "Miao-Yao".
to be even more specific, within both the Miao and Yao ethnic groups, each group can be sub-categorized based on region/locality. The Mien are part of the Yao subcategorization while the Hmong are part of the Miao subcategorization. Languages within each sub-group can be unintelligible with a language consistency ranging from 58%-78% depending on which type of Yao you are.
Further more, even within the mien sub-group, the Mien can be categorized into even smaller sub-groups, such as the iu-mienh, Kim-mun, Lan Tin, and so on.~apart from language, local etiquette plays a major role in group identification. For example, the Iu-Mien do not consider the Kim-mun to be Iu-Mien, though the spoken language are intelligible.
Thank you for elaborating Theresa, the Yao and as well as most of the known (55) minorities of China consist of several and perhaps an unaccountable varity of their own sub-branches; which themselves can be traced or found within other and seperate minority groups. The division between the Mun and the Mien initially, however, is something that I've questioned from the beginning.
From what I've read, a lot of the sub-group categorizations of the ethnic groups are relative to local etiquette and location (as I have mentioned before). For example, we may speak the same language, but the way the people interact makes one group distinct from another group (referring back to etiquette). An example of locality as a marker of distinguishing one group from another is that the Iu-Mien, historically, are mountain or high-land people whereas the Mun are low-land people. roup.
The Mienh of Laos and South East Asia are definitely recognized on the upper parts of mountains and jungles.
Muns themselves cultivate in the high and more prominent rice terraces/patties of the high-plateax, which also shows us that their mobility were not as frequent as the Mienh.
Geographically speaking, dialects do differ due to outside influences and of other groups; which would defnitely influence their clothing as well.
heheh. dunno if yah know... What you've written is, historically, accurate. However, because of more recent political changes in SEA with in the last decade, more and more Mien are pushed out of the mountains. In fact, in Laos, living in the mountains and the practice of slash and burn is outlawed. Today, only the rice paddy type of agriculture is permitted in Laos...so yeah..I thought you might find this interesting.
Point here is Theresa, we've lead the examples of what makes these sub-branches different, accordingly to what ever substantiates them to be different. "My" understanding on how these sub-branches of the Yao race, are given in the name of where they believe they came from; whether if it be a man or self-created belief.
Also, I have no clue of what the SEA is doing with these minorities when initially they had no concern with these people. I don't keep any sources that elaborate on the social and economical structures of the Mienh in SEA.
SEA-meaning within South-east Asia. Your argument is valid. I was just stating the local government policies now restrict mountain/hilltribe people from dwelling in the mountains and no longer allow them to practice slash and burn.
Yet, whether if the Mienh have been obligated to stop this kind of slash and burn agriculture, the idea here is that the Mienh came from this kind of producing society; which was the example I was trying to make of how they differentiate from the Mun. These sources I've obtained may be extrememly outdated but I wouldn't imply them to be historically incorrect.
For example, in Laos more recent policies prohibit the Iu-Mien to live in the mountains and prohibit the practice of slash and burn. If you go to Laos today, they practice a different type of subsistence farming. Accordingly, our Mien culture is shifting rapidly because of more local government regulations whereby in the past, the local government allowed the Mien and other hilltribes a more independent autonomy.
Lastly, I never made any implications that what you have written is historically inaccurate. I stated, "What you've written is historically, accurate..." I was implying that how the historians + sociologists distinguished/measured differences between different groups is changing because of more recent shifts as I have mentioned before. The questions is, how do we measure these differences today?
Even within the Iu-Mien, our culture is so distinct. For example, Iu-Mien America, Thai-Mien, and Lao Mien...are we still even Iu-Mien? Are we another group of people, since our culture majorly shifted from its' original origins? I'm not saying we are a different group of people, but it is an interesting question to ask ourselves.
(continued part 3)For example, a new locality met new plants, animals, ideas, and outside cultural influences (including religion) helped create a change or shift from the original culture. I think that this is one of the reason to explain the many sub-groups of the Yao ethnic group.
(continued part 4) Lastly, I think the best way in attempting to gauge truth from fiction is to study historical text, in particular, Chinese and Vietnamese historical text because that is where the Mien dwelled the longest. We cannot gauge facts from myths. Moreover, history also has to be evaluated such that a common collective memory is reached.
(continued part 5) I say this because human memory can be distorted in so many ways depending on how we want to portray reality. I am not saying we can reach an absolute conclusion of our origins, but I think we can have a better understanding by carefully evaluating historical facts.
hmm....the lady on the chair looks hmong, old guy looks hmong but speaks mienh..something about picking firewood and weaving baskets.
but the two with the red is Yao.
Also you guys had an interesting conversations about the Kim Mun and Iu-Mienh...everytime I read the word "Kim Mun" it reminds me of the Mienh word "Gemh Mienh" but we call them Janx-Cun-Zeiv =\
Mi3nboitorne 2 years ago
I understand that there are vital pieces of information we've both collected that may or may not be compatible or equivalent to one another; so therefore your view of how these perspectives work are not the same as mine.
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
I also agree that we can study any subject from many perspectives.
lastime77 4 years ago
Again, structures, influences, migration routes, which ever social, economical, or political stand point they're from, a strong attachment somewhere concludes the ties and identity of these people. Lastly Theresa, I appreciate your feedback so much. It shows me your appreciation, and as well as your knowledge within these studies. From this point on, please share more with me and the rest of us, your findings and information.
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
The Mienh & Mun specifically build up of at least 80%; with holding the most sub-branches of their own out of all the other or minor subdivsions (and dialects) which are recognized as well; this is in the sense, for example, where Yao-Miao dialects may come into play. The Red Branch of Southern China and the island of Hainan almost resemble that of nothing but the Miao Nationality (physically); speaking a dialect belonging to the that of the Miao, but are entirely under the Yao umbrella.
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
But why, of mainly these (2) sub-branches, must we appoint questions; when we have other surrounding minority groups who are also culturally intertwined with the Yao Nationality?
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
Other than eliminating all the factors of what makes them different, there is a common basis to their identity in which we may or may not find in the direction of examing similarities and differentiations of their belief(s) of origin. It is not to adequately determine if their myth of origin actually took place, occurred, or existed, but it should be to recognize and evaluate if one's story is equivalent to the other.
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
Agriculture, ideally, is different; and whether if they be "slash and burn" farmers or cultivators, or settled amongst the wet rice terrace fields, or maintined other variations of farming techniques based on ecosystem differences you've also mentioned, and as well as many other minor and/or great details which outrule them from equally seen as the "Mienh" sub-branch; what is it that makes them linked to one another?
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
The crucial point I was trying to state however is that the common and recognizably significance found by most and entirely in all of the "Yao" sub-branches, which is almost so vital in identifying these groups, is one's "own" sustained belief of origin. How does this group's belief differ from this one? How do "they" believe they were formed? It tells us a great deal in who they are, and perhaps enables us to find their lineage or link to the specifc ethnicity they claim to be from.
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
Well, to be straight forward about the idea I wanted to present is that civilizations shouldn't indeed be determined based on mythical/symbolic icons, legends, any of the supernatural; they impose conflicts. Therefore, to be technical about these studies, we do need to turn to geologists, archaeologists, anthro, socio, etc, etc and their specific findings. So to come to an understanding, I agree with the information you've presented.
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
Stories of migration and their routes differ as well (the story of the Sea Journey is not shared with the Mun). However, they do worship and have the common belief of the same or similar mythical origin as the Yao. Which therefor, and based upon other common structures, substantiates them as a part of the Yao ethnic family.
I am not sure on the exact wording of the sub-branch "Mun," but I believe they might be recognized as the "Janx-Cingh Zeiv" in the Mienh language.
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
There are differences within religion, the way each sect of their own form of Taoism is practiced differs greatly. It shows that the form of Taoism practiced by the Mun is the one closely practiced in Taiwan and Fujian; being that the Mun claimed to have reached the areas of Fujian before.
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
(continued...)The way they do agriculture is also different (and is logical based on location~different fertility rates of soil ). I do believe that many of the sub-groups were once a single united people. However, because the Yao are historically a semi-nomadic people who constantly, moved separation allowed new cultures to form.
lastime77 4 years ago
Kim Mun Lantin, Lan Tin, Lantien which fall underneath the "Mun" sub-branches of the Yao Nationality comprises as a whole seperate sub-branch, but has strong and similar ties to the same origin as the Mienh or the "Yao" as a whole.
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
It's difficult to be able to explain this observance of Yao groups, sub-branches, roots/lineages, but in trying to sum this is up briefly in order to understand, is that Iu-Mien and the Kim-Mien dialects which are preferably known as the Pan-Yao branch are of all virtually noticed as the "Mienh" people, classification, etc. (there are minor differientiations here and there in the spoken dialogue of Mienh depending upon region and outside influences that is).
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
I know for a fact, your content is incorrect. It's not Hmong. Rather Red Daoz. Please change your title. I'm a Hmong.
miaoyaht 4 years ago
cool...
lastime77 4 years ago
thanks
07topkapi 4 years ago
Well the dialog that is being spoken is actually "Mien". However, the woman who is sitting down sewing and such is probably who the man is referring to as the Black Hmong. I know for a fact the lang. being spoken is Mien, because I can understand it very clearly.
Thanks for uploading!
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
thanks for your info too.
i didn´t know about "mien" and i´ve been searching about it but....what´s the difference between mien and hmong? i can see it clearly.
i didn´t know too about so many hmongs living in USA.
interesting...
07topkapi 4 years ago
Well, they are (2) distinct/separate ethnic minority groups that can be found in Asia, and now in the U.S. There may be cultural traits, and structures that seem similar(similar, but not the same) amongst these (2) groups,(being that their surroundings and influences could be similar as well) and the dialects that both groups use differ fairly well from each other but are categorized underneath the same language family tree/root: "Miao-Yao".
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
oh that´s ineteresting. as i said i didn´t know about mien before your comment. not even travelling around north west vietnam.
i appreciate your comments.
07topkapi 4 years ago
to be even more specific, within both the Miao and Yao ethnic groups, each group can be sub-categorized based on region/locality. The Mien are part of the Yao subcategorization while the Hmong are part of the Miao subcategorization. Languages within each sub-group can be unintelligible with a language consistency ranging from 58%-78% depending on which type of Yao you are.
lastime77 4 years ago
Further more, even within the mien sub-group, the Mien can be categorized into even smaller sub-groups, such as the iu-mienh, Kim-mun, Lan Tin, and so on.~apart from language, local etiquette plays a major role in group identification. For example, the Iu-Mien do not consider the Kim-mun to be Iu-Mien, though the spoken language are intelligible.
lastime77 4 years ago
Thank you for elaborating Theresa, the Yao and as well as most of the known (55) minorities of China consist of several and perhaps an unaccountable varity of their own sub-branches; which themselves can be traced or found within other and seperate minority groups. The division between the Mun and the Mien initially, however, is something that I've questioned from the beginning.
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
From what I've read, a lot of the sub-group categorizations of the ethnic groups are relative to local etiquette and location (as I have mentioned before). For example, we may speak the same language, but the way the people interact makes one group distinct from another group (referring back to etiquette). An example of locality as a marker of distinguishing one group from another is that the Iu-Mien, historically, are mountain or high-land people whereas the Mun are low-land people. roup.
lastime77 4 years ago
The Mienh of Laos and South East Asia are definitely recognized on the upper parts of mountains and jungles.
Muns themselves cultivate in the high and more prominent rice terraces/patties of the high-plateax, which also shows us that their mobility were not as frequent as the Mienh.
Geographically speaking, dialects do differ due to outside influences and of other groups; which would defnitely influence their clothing as well.
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
heheh. dunno if yah know... What you've written is, historically, accurate. However, because of more recent political changes in SEA with in the last decade, more and more Mien are pushed out of the mountains. In fact, in Laos, living in the mountains and the practice of slash and burn is outlawed. Today, only the rice paddy type of agriculture is permitted in Laos...so yeah..I thought you might find this interesting.
lastime77 4 years ago
Point here is Theresa, we've lead the examples of what makes these sub-branches different, accordingly to what ever substantiates them to be different. "My" understanding on how these sub-branches of the Yao race, are given in the name of where they believe they came from; whether if it be a man or self-created belief.
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
Also, I have no clue of what the SEA is doing with these minorities when initially they had no concern with these people. I don't keep any sources that elaborate on the social and economical structures of the Mienh in SEA.
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
SEA-meaning within South-east Asia. Your argument is valid. I was just stating the local government policies now restrict mountain/hilltribe people from dwelling in the mountains and no longer allow them to practice slash and burn.
lastime77 4 years ago
Yet, whether if the Mienh have been obligated to stop this kind of slash and burn agriculture, the idea here is that the Mienh came from this kind of producing society; which was the example I was trying to make of how they differentiate from the Mun. These sources I've obtained may be extrememly outdated but I wouldn't imply them to be historically incorrect.
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
If that was what you were trying to imply. But if I've sprung any confusion about what I've stated, they weren't my intentions.
MeyKhuangPien 4 years ago
My main point was that the Mien of Laos no longer practice subsistence farming through the practice of slash and burn.
lastime77 4 years ago
For example, in Laos more recent policies prohibit the Iu-Mien to live in the mountains and prohibit the practice of slash and burn. If you go to Laos today, they practice a different type of subsistence farming. Accordingly, our Mien culture is shifting rapidly because of more local government regulations whereby in the past, the local government allowed the Mien and other hilltribes a more independent autonomy.
lastime77 4 years ago
Lastly, I never made any implications that what you have written is historically inaccurate. I stated, "What you've written is historically, accurate..." I was implying that how the historians + sociologists distinguished/measured differences between different groups is changing because of more recent shifts as I have mentioned before. The questions is, how do we measure these differences today?
lastime77 4 years ago
Even within the Iu-Mien, our culture is so distinct. For example, Iu-Mien America, Thai-Mien, and Lao Mien...are we still even Iu-Mien? Are we another group of people, since our culture majorly shifted from its' original origins? I'm not saying we are a different group of people, but it is an interesting question to ask ourselves.
lastime77 4 years ago
(continued part 3)For example, a new locality met new plants, animals, ideas, and outside cultural influences (including religion) helped create a change or shift from the original culture. I think that this is one of the reason to explain the many sub-groups of the Yao ethnic group.
lastime77 4 years ago
(continued part 4) Lastly, I think the best way in attempting to gauge truth from fiction is to study historical text, in particular, Chinese and Vietnamese historical text because that is where the Mien dwelled the longest. We cannot gauge facts from myths. Moreover, history also has to be evaluated such that a common collective memory is reached.
lastime77 4 years ago
(continued part 5) I say this because human memory can be distorted in so many ways depending on how we want to portray reality. I am not saying we can reach an absolute conclusion of our origins, but I think we can have a better understanding by carefully evaluating historical facts.
lastime77 4 years ago
mmmm....i don´t really know.
taking in account that this was a red dao valley (different ethnic group) perhaps they´re talking their language...if exists :).
you can see the red dao women at left.
anyway the people at home were black hmong for sure.
07topkapi 4 years ago
what language are they speaking? Doesn't sound anything close to hmong
yellowladee 4 years ago