Even bigger thanks for including G'Kar and the fleet commander along with the space battle--they give the scene real meaning and drama. A special effect without a story can be a pretty boring thing.
Something struck me as odd, why didn't the Narn warships open the jump points in front of themselves? Seems incredibly counter-productive to open it behind your ship, because you have to spend the time to maneuver that monster around, and that's time they didn't have. :3
Besides that, though, great battle. Love this show. <3
@InsurrectionistFungi You wouldn't wanna open a jump point right where the enemy is coming at you from. It obscures your view, and I'm guessing becuase of the massive energy used, sensors as well.
But wouldn't it obscure the enemy's view, and presumably their sensors, too? Although, I guess that the jump point could flood the area in front of it with massive amounts of energy, thus essentially placing your ship in a cloud where it can't detect anything? Meh, I don't pretend to understand the science behind it. xD
@InsurrectionistFungi Its plausible at current science level (and my understanding:D),that when you create a "rip" in the usual fabric,or better said laws of space,then sensors,witch are just calibrated instrumens,start going crazy at and around that "eventhorizon".But naturally it depends on the "exact" laws of that event,witch are,because it is an ancient,inherited tech,presumably not exactly known to them too-You can build a rocket,but what about the science behind it?:D
@Jokie155 A jump point would have to create a gravity well similar to that of a black hole to "curve" space, meaning that it would create a "bulge" invisible to the attacking ships -- though they would still see a straight line because of the curvature of space-time. This "bulge" would actually create distance between the Shadow and Narn ships as they would have to go up and over the curve. Seems a handy way to make a quick escape. Science is ignored again for dramatic effect.
@BloodofPatriots How can we guess the nature of an effect, if we know nothing about it?:) The one thing we can speculate on is that "something happens to space there", but not even that is 100%, maybe its just a door opening...i too did assumptions here, but i realize that it is on the level of some caveman versus a starfury...just to stay clear-minded, and don't make wild accusations to the show :)
@InsurrectionistFungi If I understand it correctly, the Younger Races (Humans, Narns, Centauri & the League of Non-Aligned Worlds) were unable to control exactly where the jump points opened, either incoming or outgoing. Races like the Vorlons and the Minbari, who had been working with Jump Theory for much longer could open jump points with far greater positional accuracy.
Actually the Minbari are still one of the younger races. Just still a few thousand years older then the other ones. They where starfaring during the previous shadow war, but their not one of the older race. You're right about their jump points though.
The pilot incorrectly has G'kar mention the Minbari where older then the Vorlons, but back in the pilot days, the Vorlons where actually originally conceived as organic methane breathers.
I have yet to find people geeky enough to be willing to dress up as Narns and do a little re-enacting. You know, like the star trek geeks with the faux klingon paste-on foreheads.
@Lightingwarrior : If the Shadows hadn't been helping the Centauri, there probably would not have been a war. Remember, Emperor Turhan was on Babylon 5 to apologize for Centauri atrocities. G'Kar even accepted the apology as hope that their two races could reconcile, but Londo ordered the attack on Quadrant 14 which directly led to the tragedy that was this battle...
@Vistico93 Yea that is possible but the Emerpor was dying by that time not to mention with people like lord refa who were willing to use any means achieve power, it still could have happened without the shadows interferance. Since the Centari were still very proud and obnoxious over how the use to be the leaders of the galaxy, while the Nari were hungry for blood and revenge for what the centari did to them.
@Lightingwarrior I agree. It looks to me like war between the Centauri and Narns was inevitable. If not for the Shadows, then the war would likely have ended with both sides being bloodied and battered but the Centauri would have made some territorial gains given their superior naval experience. In other words, it would have been like the Russo-Japanese war, the sort of war where one side wins but only at a high cost.
@girlgarde True enough, the Centauri may be proud and obnoxious, but they aren't pushovers and excluding the first ones and the Minbari, they are the most advance race in the Galaxy
@Lightingwarrior Yeah, the Centauri are indeed quite tough and if not for Emperor Turhan's appeasement policies, they probably would have beaten up on the Narns a lot sooner and not entered into a period of decline in terms of territory and prestige. In other words, the Narns owe Turhan a great deal as he kept his people's aggression in check and only when he died did his people return to the old ways.....
@girlgarde Perhaps, but then again the Centari may have fell into the decline eventually as like I said they are proud and obnoxious and often fight amounst themselves for power and can't except facts when they put them in a bad light. Example how they ignored Cartagia madness and allowed him his way and when he died tried to make him look like some kind of saint. That kind of stuff brings about decline in a empire as look at the romans where all their in fighting brought about their ruin.
@girlgarde Perhaps, but then again the Centari may have fell into the decline eventually as like I said they are proud and obnoxious and often fight amounst themselves for power and can't accept facts when they put them in a bad light. Example how they ignored Cartagia madness and allowed him his way and when he died tried to make him look like some kind of saint. That kind of stuff brings about decline in a empire as look at the romans where all their in fighting brought about their ruin.
@Lightingwarrior Yeah, fighting among themselves for power is one of their key weaknesses and probably contributed to their losing their top power status. All I'm saying is that even with this and being forced to leave Narn the first time around, they could have possibly retained a greater degree of prestige, territory and respect had it not been for Turhan's polices.
As for Cartagia, few stood up to him out of fear of being executed for treason and because many agreed with his militant stance
@girlgarde Personally I think Turhan's polices were wise, to be honest the narns would have continued to fighting the Centari, until they were all dead or the Centari were driven off their word. This would have tied up recources and manpower, not to mention cost the Centari many lives, meaning keeping it would've been more trouble than it's worth. Example, my Country Ireland was ruled by England for 700 years, but we kept fighting for our indepence, until eventually we won it.
@Lightingwarrior I agree that Turhan had the right idea in trying to make peace with the Narns but he kept ceding Centauri territory to them plus they showed that they didn't appreciate it since they kept attacking Centauri colonies and outposts like Ragesh III. Not only that but he had it so that his people did nothing in response to the Narn attack on Ragesh III. In other words, he failed to execute his policies properly which fueled hatred towards the Narns and discredited his ideals.
@girlgarde True, but he probably believed that if he followed a more passive path, he might avoid a bloody war between the two. Although to be fair, he still came very close to avoiding the possible war, if Londo hadn't made that deal with the Shadows, there might have been a slight chance that the war could've been avoided. Since after hearing Turhan's apology, G'kar was actually try to make peace with Londo. A man he hated more than anyone at the time, hence there was a slime hope.
@Lightingwarrior Yeah, it WAS amazing to see that G'kar got on board the whole "Make peace with the Centauri" idea from a simple apology from Emperor Turhan and was willing to even make peace with Londo given how much the two men hated each other. If Turhan had lived long enough to make that speech in front of an audience, something positive would have come of it, I'm sure of it.
As for Turhan's policies, he needed to understand that he had to balance it out so his people don't feel humiliated
@girlgarde Well to G'Kar it was something he thought he never hear, since he had envisioned turhan as some kind of heartkes monster. Plus to hear the leader of his most hated enemy openly admit that what his people did to G'Kar's people was wrong and apologise for it, is no small thing, especailly to someone like G'Kar.
@Lightingwarrior Yeah. I hope that he didn't end up hating Turhan again and thought that he had lied to him and plotted the sneak attack on the Narn Colony in Quadrant 14.
@girlgarde As for Turhan polices, yea his intention were noble, but weren't done correctly. He is not unlike Joseph II of the Holy Roman Empire, who is consider one of the three greatest enlightened monarchs of all time. He tried to enforence tolerance for all religions in his empire, as well improve medicine and education for people and created scholarships for people with little money. He even tried to improve the legal and administrative polices of his empire.
@girlgarde But sadly it all failed as it went against all the old traditions of his empire, and his ideas were unpopular with the noble and ruling class, who were in open rebellion over them. Hence had no support to help him and no-one willing to continue his work when he grew ill. He then later died broken-hearted and alone, after he was forced to withdraw almost all his reforms. A sad fate to a great man in my opinion, hence why I find him so similar to Turhan.
@Lightingwarrior I wouldn't be surprised if the writers based Emperor Turhan on Joseph II of the Holy Roman Empire then. For some reason, I can imagine Londo Mollari as a non puppet emperor having the strength and toughness to enact Turhan's reforms and handle anyone who tries to obstruct him. Why? Because though Londo's a good person, he's also willing to hit below the belt and act like a viper when he feels he has to. Turhan I suspect was much less willing to do this sadly..........
@Lightingwarrior I'd like to think that Turhan's efforts set an example for Londo and later on, Vir to follow which helped pave the way for the Centauri to become redeemed in the future. In my opinion, Turhan's efforts failed because the Narns continued to act aggressively towards the Centauri despite Turhan's gestures of good will AND because Turhan handled it in a way that made him AND his people look weak which bolstered support for hardliners and got them into power when he died.
@girlgarde Also I agree with what you said about Cartagia, but even still, instead of acknowledging the fact that their emperor was a mad man, who was about to led them to destruction, they made him out as some kind of spiritual man.
@Lightingwarrior It was probably some sort of Centauri tradition of sorts and besides, during Cartagia's dark reign, they pummeled the Narns and regained much of their lost glory and prestige even if he was a lunatic, they probably took that into consideration especially since the anti-war elements in the Royal Court probably wanted to appease the hardliners by not publicly making a big deal out of Cartagia's action for the sake of internal stability.
@girlgarde Yea, but it still annoys me, since it's like saying that Hitler was a visionary and was only mislead my certain things. If they had only accepted their failing, they may have realized their own foolishness and become more humbled, which may have helped them avoid the devastation they suffered from the Narn and Drazi attack and avoid the war with the Interstellar Alliance along with the takeover of the Drakh. All caused by their own arrogance and foolish pride
@Lightingwarrior I'm aware of that. I'm merely saying how the Centauri felt is all. I imagine that Londo planned to use his influence to phase out the "Cartagia is a saint" way of thinking in due time. In the period right after his death though, he ands the other moderates needed to keep the remaining hardliners in the royal court at bay lest they stir up trouble and destabilize the Centauri Republic or worse yet take power again and cause even more wars and bloodshed. Politics stink!
Even bigger thanks for including G'Kar and the fleet commander along with the space battle--they give the scene real meaning and drama. A special effect without a story can be a pretty boring thing.
GreenResistance 1 week ago
Poor Narns. They never get an even break until the bat squad scene.
stormcrow28 2 weeks ago
Finally! A B5 clip without some gay song playing over the top of it.
black25330 1 month ago 13
This has been flagged as spam show
Poor Narns, they were boned the moment they came out of hyperspace.
C0mmanderEddingt0n 2 months ago 2
1 Shadow battlecrab dislikes being hit by coordinated heavy laser fire...
NightFlash24 2 months ago 5
Something struck me as odd, why didn't the Narn warships open the jump points in front of themselves? Seems incredibly counter-productive to open it behind your ship, because you have to spend the time to maneuver that monster around, and that's time they didn't have. :3
Besides that, though, great battle. Love this show. <3
InsurrectionistFungi 2 months ago
@InsurrectionistFungi You wouldn't wanna open a jump point right where the enemy is coming at you from. It obscures your view, and I'm guessing becuase of the massive energy used, sensors as well.
Jokie155 2 months ago
@Jokie155
But wouldn't it obscure the enemy's view, and presumably their sensors, too? Although, I guess that the jump point could flood the area in front of it with massive amounts of energy, thus essentially placing your ship in a cloud where it can't detect anything? Meh, I don't pretend to understand the science behind it. xD
InsurrectionistFungi 2 months ago
@InsurrectionistFungi Its plausible at current science level (and my understanding:D),that when you create a "rip" in the usual fabric,or better said laws of space,then sensors,witch are just calibrated instrumens,start going crazy at and around that "eventhorizon".But naturally it depends on the "exact" laws of that event,witch are,because it is an ancient,inherited tech,presumably not exactly known to them too-You can build a rocket,but what about the science behind it?:D
NightFlash24 1 month ago
@Jokie155 A jump point would have to create a gravity well similar to that of a black hole to "curve" space, meaning that it would create a "bulge" invisible to the attacking ships -- though they would still see a straight line because of the curvature of space-time. This "bulge" would actually create distance between the Shadow and Narn ships as they would have to go up and over the curve. Seems a handy way to make a quick escape. Science is ignored again for dramatic effect.
BloodofPatriots 1 week ago
@BloodofPatriots How can we guess the nature of an effect, if we know nothing about it?:) The one thing we can speculate on is that "something happens to space there", but not even that is 100%, maybe its just a door opening...i too did assumptions here, but i realize that it is on the level of some caveman versus a starfury...just to stay clear-minded, and don't make wild accusations to the show :)
NightFlash24 6 days ago
@NightFlash24 You really should learn what you're posting about.
BloodofPatriots 6 days ago
@InsurrectionistFungi If I understand it correctly, the Younger Races (Humans, Narns, Centauri & the League of Non-Aligned Worlds) were unable to control exactly where the jump points opened, either incoming or outgoing. Races like the Vorlons and the Minbari, who had been working with Jump Theory for much longer could open jump points with far greater positional accuracy.
Fbueller129 2 months ago
@Fbueller129
Actually the Minbari are still one of the younger races. Just still a few thousand years older then the other ones. They where starfaring during the previous shadow war, but their not one of the older race. You're right about their jump points though.
The pilot incorrectly has G'kar mention the Minbari where older then the Vorlons, but back in the pilot days, the Vorlons where actually originally conceived as organic methane breathers.
TheSkunkCat 1 month ago
can anyone find the battle where the narn attack the centauri colony? I believe they have a different type of battleship in that episode
lycanthropeify 5 months ago
@lycanthropeify
watch?v=x8C_k1a-dM8
Skip to ~ 1:30
BootedNoob 5 months ago
I have yet to find people geeky enough to be willing to dress up as Narns and do a little re-enacting. You know, like the star trek geeks with the faux klingon paste-on foreheads.
lurconis666 5 months ago
@lurconis666 I've seen pictures of people at conventions in Narn make up.
Fbueller129 5 months ago
Poor Narns, if the Shadows hadn't been helping the Centari, they might have stood a better chance of winning the war
Lightingwarrior 6 months ago
@Lightingwarrior : If the Shadows hadn't been helping the Centauri, there probably would not have been a war. Remember, Emperor Turhan was on Babylon 5 to apologize for Centauri atrocities. G'Kar even accepted the apology as hope that their two races could reconcile, but Londo ordered the attack on Quadrant 14 which directly led to the tragedy that was this battle...
Vistico93 6 months ago
@Vistico93 Yea that is possible but the Emerpor was dying by that time not to mention with people like lord refa who were willing to use any means achieve power, it still could have happened without the shadows interferance. Since the Centari were still very proud and obnoxious over how the use to be the leaders of the galaxy, while the Nari were hungry for blood and revenge for what the centari did to them.
Lightingwarrior 6 months ago
@Lightingwarrior I agree. It looks to me like war between the Centauri and Narns was inevitable. If not for the Shadows, then the war would likely have ended with both sides being bloodied and battered but the Centauri would have made some territorial gains given their superior naval experience. In other words, it would have been like the Russo-Japanese war, the sort of war where one side wins but only at a high cost.
girlgarde 4 months ago
@girlgarde True enough, the Centauri may be proud and obnoxious, but they aren't pushovers and excluding the first ones and the Minbari, they are the most advance race in the Galaxy
Lightingwarrior 4 months ago
@Lightingwarrior Yeah, the Centauri are indeed quite tough and if not for Emperor Turhan's appeasement policies, they probably would have beaten up on the Narns a lot sooner and not entered into a period of decline in terms of territory and prestige. In other words, the Narns owe Turhan a great deal as he kept his people's aggression in check and only when he died did his people return to the old ways.....
girlgarde 4 months ago
@girlgarde Perhaps, but then again the Centari may have fell into the decline eventually as like I said they are proud and obnoxious and often fight amounst themselves for power and can't except facts when they put them in a bad light. Example how they ignored Cartagia madness and allowed him his way and when he died tried to make him look like some kind of saint. That kind of stuff brings about decline in a empire as look at the romans where all their in fighting brought about their ruin.
Lightingwarrior 4 months ago
@girlgarde Perhaps, but then again the Centari may have fell into the decline eventually as like I said they are proud and obnoxious and often fight amounst themselves for power and can't accept facts when they put them in a bad light. Example how they ignored Cartagia madness and allowed him his way and when he died tried to make him look like some kind of saint. That kind of stuff brings about decline in a empire as look at the romans where all their in fighting brought about their ruin.
Lightingwarrior 4 months ago
@Lightingwarrior Yeah, fighting among themselves for power is one of their key weaknesses and probably contributed to their losing their top power status. All I'm saying is that even with this and being forced to leave Narn the first time around, they could have possibly retained a greater degree of prestige, territory and respect had it not been for Turhan's polices.
As for Cartagia, few stood up to him out of fear of being executed for treason and because many agreed with his militant stance
girlgarde 4 months ago
@girlgarde Personally I think Turhan's polices were wise, to be honest the narns would have continued to fighting the Centari, until they were all dead or the Centari were driven off their word. This would have tied up recources and manpower, not to mention cost the Centari many lives, meaning keeping it would've been more trouble than it's worth. Example, my Country Ireland was ruled by England for 700 years, but we kept fighting for our indepence, until eventually we won it.
Lightingwarrior 4 months ago
@Lightingwarrior I agree that Turhan had the right idea in trying to make peace with the Narns but he kept ceding Centauri territory to them plus they showed that they didn't appreciate it since they kept attacking Centauri colonies and outposts like Ragesh III. Not only that but he had it so that his people did nothing in response to the Narn attack on Ragesh III. In other words, he failed to execute his policies properly which fueled hatred towards the Narns and discredited his ideals.
girlgarde 4 months ago
@girlgarde True, but he probably believed that if he followed a more passive path, he might avoid a bloody war between the two. Although to be fair, he still came very close to avoiding the possible war, if Londo hadn't made that deal with the Shadows, there might have been a slight chance that the war could've been avoided. Since after hearing Turhan's apology, G'kar was actually try to make peace with Londo. A man he hated more than anyone at the time, hence there was a slime hope.
Lightingwarrior 4 months ago
@Lightingwarrior Yeah, it WAS amazing to see that G'kar got on board the whole "Make peace with the Centauri" idea from a simple apology from Emperor Turhan and was willing to even make peace with Londo given how much the two men hated each other. If Turhan had lived long enough to make that speech in front of an audience, something positive would have come of it, I'm sure of it.
As for Turhan's policies, he needed to understand that he had to balance it out so his people don't feel humiliated
girlgarde 4 months ago
@girlgarde Well to G'Kar it was something he thought he never hear, since he had envisioned turhan as some kind of heartkes monster. Plus to hear the leader of his most hated enemy openly admit that what his people did to G'Kar's people was wrong and apologise for it, is no small thing, especailly to someone like G'Kar.
Lightingwarrior 4 months ago
@Lightingwarrior Yeah. I hope that he didn't end up hating Turhan again and thought that he had lied to him and plotted the sneak attack on the Narn Colony in Quadrant 14.
girlgarde 4 months ago
@girlgarde As for Turhan polices, yea his intention were noble, but weren't done correctly. He is not unlike Joseph II of the Holy Roman Empire, who is consider one of the three greatest enlightened monarchs of all time. He tried to enforence tolerance for all religions in his empire, as well improve medicine and education for people and created scholarships for people with little money. He even tried to improve the legal and administrative polices of his empire.
Lightingwarrior 4 months ago
@Lightingwarrior I came here at the wrong time
deerhunterp 2 months ago
@girlgarde But sadly it all failed as it went against all the old traditions of his empire, and his ideas were unpopular with the noble and ruling class, who were in open rebellion over them. Hence had no support to help him and no-one willing to continue his work when he grew ill. He then later died broken-hearted and alone, after he was forced to withdraw almost all his reforms. A sad fate to a great man in my opinion, hence why I find him so similar to Turhan.
Lightingwarrior 4 months ago
@Lightingwarrior I wouldn't be surprised if the writers based Emperor Turhan on Joseph II of the Holy Roman Empire then. For some reason, I can imagine Londo Mollari as a non puppet emperor having the strength and toughness to enact Turhan's reforms and handle anyone who tries to obstruct him. Why? Because though Londo's a good person, he's also willing to hit below the belt and act like a viper when he feels he has to. Turhan I suspect was much less willing to do this sadly..........
girlgarde 4 months ago
@girlgarde Both tried to do the right thing and died, failing to meet their goals.
Lightingwarrior 4 months ago
@Lightingwarrior I'd like to think that Turhan's efforts set an example for Londo and later on, Vir to follow which helped pave the way for the Centauri to become redeemed in the future. In my opinion, Turhan's efforts failed because the Narns continued to act aggressively towards the Centauri despite Turhan's gestures of good will AND because Turhan handled it in a way that made him AND his people look weak which bolstered support for hardliners and got them into power when he died.
girlgarde 4 months ago
@girlgarde Very likely
Lightingwarrior 4 months ago
@girlgarde Also I agree with what you said about Cartagia, but even still, instead of acknowledging the fact that their emperor was a mad man, who was about to led them to destruction, they made him out as some kind of spiritual man.
Lightingwarrior 4 months ago
@Lightingwarrior It was probably some sort of Centauri tradition of sorts and besides, during Cartagia's dark reign, they pummeled the Narns and regained much of their lost glory and prestige even if he was a lunatic, they probably took that into consideration especially since the anti-war elements in the Royal Court probably wanted to appease the hardliners by not publicly making a big deal out of Cartagia's action for the sake of internal stability.
girlgarde 4 months ago
@girlgarde Yea, but it still annoys me, since it's like saying that Hitler was a visionary and was only mislead my certain things. If they had only accepted their failing, they may have realized their own foolishness and become more humbled, which may have helped them avoid the devastation they suffered from the Narn and Drazi attack and avoid the war with the Interstellar Alliance along with the takeover of the Drakh. All caused by their own arrogance and foolish pride
Lightingwarrior 4 months ago
@Lightingwarrior I'm aware of that. I'm merely saying how the Centauri felt is all. I imagine that Londo planned to use his influence to phase out the "Cartagia is a saint" way of thinking in due time. In the period right after his death though, he ands the other moderates needed to keep the remaining hardliners in the royal court at bay lest they stir up trouble and destabilize the Centauri Republic or worse yet take power again and cause even more wars and bloodshed. Politics stink!
girlgarde 4 months ago
@girlgarde True enough, it's like the old saying in war the first casualty is the truth. It's why hate politicians
Lightingwarrior 4 months ago
The Shadows fighting as only the Shadows can...
cannonski 6 months ago
it's general martok!
shaalis 7 months ago
@shaalis Huh? Where?
finalfrontier1701 6 months ago
Excellent! and well done for keeping the original sound effects!!!
spacebattletown 7 months ago 10
The Shadow capital ships poop fighters. That says it all.
Hecate1990 7 months ago
Thanks for uploading this, my favourite B5 battle ever.
nicoj84 9 months ago 3