Prelude to the Battle of Waterloo

[17931815]

Somewhere out there is the full cut.I saw the film on release and at Waterloo Day in 1975.Blame the yanks for their short attention spans.The present cut is a travesty!We want the missing 2 hours!!!!!!

[tigerarmyrule]

@ALDERMANOFFOUNTALL You can't possibly argue that the Non UK contingets have not suffered a bad press compared to the UK units mate. Notwithstanding your true comments the fact is that halkett did retreat and the guards were put to flight. This does not mean that many UK regiments did not perform well....they did.

[RomanticistaPatriota]

VIVE L'EMPEREUR!VIVE L'EMPEREUR!VIVE L'EMPEREUR!VIVE L'EMPEREUR!VIVE L'EMPEREUR!VIVE L'EMPEREUR!VIVE L'EMPEREUR!

[StenKilla]

0:40-0:59 Love that part. Does anyone know what march it is?

[1812over2]

@StenKilla It isn't a historical march. Its Part of the music composed for the movie. Its called "The Prussians".

[Hunter7471]

Like the Scots!

[tigerarmyrule]

Always interesting to discern fiction from fact, myth from history. One hears of Non English failures but rarely that kellermann's Cuirassiers had routed much of Halkett's Brigade at Q-Bras or that Pire's light cavalry had put the British foot guards to flight as well far more quickly than the Middle Guard were stopped at Waterloo.

[DutchPetriot]

In the refercence is a mistake. William of Orange created a defence in depth. With organized retreating and a final stand at Quatre Brass he though he could be able to win enough time for the Brits to realise the danger and send reinforcements to save the day. That is what truely happend. William of Orange took initiative for what he believed, and it turned out to be so, to be otherwise a tactical mistake and utlimately the cause of a negative outcome of the campaign.

[slizzler1]

@DutchPetriot

Actually the staff [ Generals Rebeque and Perponcher] at Frasnes and Quatre Bras, that made the critical decision to stand and fight with the Dutch-Belgians and Nasseurs in the area on June 15th- luckily for Wellington .... those troops and staff saved the campaign.

[tigerarmyrule]

@slizzler1 you are correct. In effect Rebecque was the decisive influence saving Wellington from disaster. Whilst it is true that the arrival of Picton's Division was crucial it is often ( and predictably ) overlooked that prior to that Perponcher's Division was engaged with the best part of a whole French Corps. Another "forgotten" point is that the British 1st Guards were mauled and retreated to the woods......just as Perponcher's men had when facing greater opposition strength.

[slizzler1]

@tigerarmyrule

yes- so many unsung heroes are ignored for their key efforts on June 15th- the Prussians had a valiant rear guard action too on that day.

It's odd quirk that Reille's divisions would face off against the British Guards again- on the west side of the Waterloo battlefield as they did at Quatre Bras.

[Woodlander65]

Quatre-Bras is on the Charleroi to Brussels road, which runs south to north, and the namur to Nivelles road, runs south-east to north-west. Quatre has a farmhouse and outbuildings, surrounded by a stout wall and cottages, gardens and orchards and other features and thats where Perponcher's 2nd Netherland Division chose to defend.

He had 7,000 men and 16 guns.

By the time the battle started Ney had 6,000 Infantry, 2,000 cavalry and heavy artillery on the scene and the French were growing in...

[Woodlander65]

...numbers and momentum all the time.

After severe fierce fighting the Netherlanders-Belgians were absurdly outnumbered and they were scattered northwards to the Bossu wood some to the open country. But many were persuaded back and by that time Picton's division were arriving from Brussels, 95th Rifles and Kempts battalions the balance was back and the French were checked and even driven back, but it was Picton that saved the day from been a disaster.

[Woodlander65]

The presence of the British steadied the Dutch-Belgians, Brunswickers and Nassauers again, and their discipline returned and they fought to a draw, allowing the Allies time to withdraw.

But the casualties of the Netherlanders were horrendous, but they gave a good account of themselves.

[hawkwood44]

The song of the Highlanders is McFersons Lament........Farewell ye dungeons dark and strong, farewell to thee, McFersons time will not be long on yonder gallows tree....Sae wantonly , say dauntingly ect.........you can find the complete lyric

[Manassascreek1861]

Do any of you fellows know the name of the song that the Higlanders are singing when they march past Picton and Wellington?

[rulebritannia1]

do they still sell this film what is its title

[EAMFilms]

waterloo

[Partini01]

Hey guys.. I have heard rumors that in the original theatrical release of this movie it featured the entire battles of Ligny and Quatre Bras. Anyone else know if this? Anyone know if and where one might find an orignal cut of this movie? I heard it was 4 hours long or so... longer than the 2 hr version I have.

[Sokra01]

As far as i know, there was a 4 hour long early cut. But he never left the Sowjet Union. The cinema version was that what we can see on DVD. I don´t know, but perhaps you can find it somewhere in the archives of Mosfilm.

[slizzler1]

I like how they enlarged 'Waterloo' village name on the map.... 0:39

[2ndbt95th]

The message Wellington received at the house of the Duke of Richmond was delivered by Lt Henry Webster of the 9th Light Dragoons, he passed the message, sent from the Netherlands HQ at Braine-le-Comte, to the Prince of Orange, who passed it to Wellington.

" Webster !, four horses instantly to the Prince of Oranges carriage for Waterloo" where ruputed to be his words.

Pictons division was on the move at 2 am, not for Quatre Bras, but only as far as Waterloo.

[slizzler1]

A typical mistake made by amateur historians- they think casualties means 'dead'.

The Prussians suffered 16,000 casualties not 'dead' as said at 1:25.

I like the rainy storm look - just like it looked on the 17th.

I bet Scots love the Highlander part.

Also more Hollywood 1:45.

Napoleon made a huge booboo by keeping the pursuit of Blucher until the afternoon on the 17th.

Picton looks like he's in good shape considering he got a near mortal wound the day before at Quatre Bras.

[Zappiss]

Good point about the Prussian casualties. Casualty estimates were really inaccurate right after the battle, so maybe Napoleon just threw an initial estimate? But knowing the film is full of historical inaccuracies, this is wishful thinking...

[slizzler1]

Actually the 16,000 number is correct, but the screenplay writer assumes casualties = the number of dead. Casualties as you know represents dead and wounded- typically dead to wounded ratio in the Napoleonic wars was 1 to 7 -ish.

So when the screenplay writer got statistics to write in the dialogue, he twisted 'casualties' into 'dead'.

I was researching Battle of the Somme casualties recently- being about 1 million-> most simple websites on the Somme copy each other and state 1 million dead! lol

[slizzler1]

I laugh only at the silly-ness of the amateurs to copy each other and not do proper research....

The acual casualties at the Somme is not funny at all- in fact if I remember correctly, the number of dead in that battle was around 200,000.

A horrific toll for one long grinding battle.

[Zappiss]

How well were casualties recorded? Even wikipedia often lists casualties from battles of the 19th century as "dead or wounded". And the actual number of troops involved is sometimes disputed, as is the case with the battle of Ligny, estimates ranging from 84 000 to 96 000 for the Prussian side.

[slizzler1]

Remember the final scene in Zulu.... first the ranking officers would see who was not present after battle amongst collected units-then the figures would filter to the top and a more general figure established. After a while soldiers may start turning up and more concrete figures made of wounded and killed -eventually a pretty accurate number can be assessed.

[slizzler1]

Some sites have folks writing in them who don't know how to get accurate figures which are available- of casualties [ usually stated as dead -and/- or wounded ] and of totals in armies present at battle. ie, Ligny-wiki-> Some sources state 96,000, but most very accurate sources conclude 80-84,000. Sources with actual dead out of casualty totals for 19 th century major battles can be found with some deep research to good resources.

[Zappiss]

And talking of Ligny:

"Wellington claimed to have watched the Prussian defeat at Ligny through his telescope from the crossroads at Quatre Bras. It must have been an "extraordinary telescope", wrote British author Siborne in his History of the War in France and Belgium in 1815 (1844), "to be able to see through a hill - in the dark"."

:)

[slizzler1]

I'd take Wellington's word-haha.

Darkness came around 9pm -so although Quatre Bras was in lower terrain I'm sure Wellington with a scope could make out blobs of formations moving about in the pre-dark dusk hour, when the battle at Ligny was decided several miles away..

[THthefirst]

@slizzler1 That's true - at Waterloo there were 3,000 Anglo-Allied Killed which always seemed quite a low number. We know the figure is accurate because roll calls were taken. The French army capitulated and the next roll call was taken a week or two later, by which point many had deserted.

[slizzler1]

@THthefirst

Napoleon's army was routed, but Grouchy actually made a skillful fighting retreat back to France. Also, even after Napoleon had left France, there were still French resistance activities against the later Allied invasion that same summer.

[slizzler1]

haha- a better title perhaps would've been..

"Humbugged by God!"