Did Joseph Smith See God the Father?

[youneekk]

SATAN has appeared, click on my channel to see...

[scottwins2]

But when he heard Ambrose of Milan speak, claiming that all those passages in the Bible which suggested anthropomorphism were to be interpreted figuratively, Augustine was intrigued and was eventually converted.

But according to Edwin Hatch, the earliest Christians had no concept of "transcendence." Indeed, they thought of themselves very literally as the children of God. It can be seen that the God of the philosophers creates numerous problems for the interpretation of the Bible

[scottwins2]

Then is appears that you disagree with the Reformers, like Martin Luther , John Wesley. tht they were waitng for apostles and revelation to come back to the earth.the overtones of Philosohy was huge during the New Testament era Greek philosophy was was as popular as Christianity. Plato designed God into The Devine, or The One, why have you not addressed that issue? Cause its a fact .

[bsp256]

@scottwins2 With all due respect, it's become apparent you don't know what you're talking about. Wesley wasn't a reformer (born 200 years too late). Luther was a Catholic, and Catholicism has the magisterium, which is similar to an prophet. He left it for sola scriptura.

[bsp256]

@scottwins2 As far as Plato, I don't know what you're getting at. Are you saying he invented monotheism? The Jews were polytheists until Plato came along? How was he able to rewrite Jewish Scripture? Why would the first Christians who were Jews incorporate Greek paganism into their doctrine. They were trying to win Jews who hated paganism.

[scottwins2]

@bsp256 This was a 700 yr journey from Plato to Constantine & the councels of Niacea. If Christianity was to accept the God of the philosophers, it had to shed certain "primitive" beliefs that characterized the God of Israel. Chief among these beliefs was the idea that God is a material being whose physical form is that of a man. since as Grace Jantzen observes, "According to a Platonic system of thought, it would be utterly inconceivable that God should have a material body." see more on page

[scottwins2]

The Bible was picked aprt by Philosohers for 700 yrs starting with Plato Greek Philosophy of "The One God" or The Devine came straight from Plato, hence NeoPlatoism The Holy Ghost comes upon a man or a prophet in this case and provides a montle as if t were. i guess its not plain enough for you that moses spoke to god face to face as a man speaketh unto his friend. As far a Timothy I have know problem with it all since i would dwindle for sure in gods presence.

I am glad Joseph ask God.

[bsp256]

@scottwins2 Do you really think the Jews got the idea for one God from Plato, and then changed their Scripture to match? That is a bold claim. What evidence do you have?

So you would dwindle in God's presence, but Joseph Smith didn't? Why?

[bsp256]

Ex 33:11 - And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.

Ex 33:20 - And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Is there a contradiction in the course of 9 verses, or is speaking face to face a figure of speech? Don't you think it means that he had intimate communication? Especially when it's made so clear later IN THE SAME CHAPTER that Moses would die if He saw God's face.

John 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time...

[scottwins2]

@bsp256 Exodus 33: 23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. You missed one. This is why we need prophets so we can know for sure. Because the scriptures are ambiguous at times. The they seem to disagree. But if you consider its what the Lord wants at the time. We believe thats why the Holy Ghost comes upon a man, to protect and to testify'. He could come and go before Christ gave it to everyone. Fairlds.org has more on the matter

[bsp256]

@scottwins2 This is really not that difficult a topic, and the Bible is abundantly clear, and all of Exodus 33 and 34 fit perfectly with the rest of the Bible. No man can see the Father or has seen the Father.

We don't need prophets. Our foundation is Scripture. It judges the prophets. The Bereans were commended for testing Paul (Acts 17:11) with Scripture (they had the OT). They didn't scrutinize Scripture based on Paul. You have it backwards. Smith fails the biblical test miserably.

[scottwins2]

The Lord does reveal himself to me. I know it. He revealed himself first to me when I was about fourteen years old, a mere boy. . . . I kneeled down, and prayed, saying, 'O Lord, what Church shall I join?' Directly I saw a light, and then a glorious Personage in the light, and then another personage, and the first personage said [of] the second, "Behold this is my beloved Son, hear him." Joseph Smith

[bsp256]

@scottwins2 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." (1 Timothy 6:16)

Give me one good reason why I should believe Joseph Smith over the Bible.

[scottwins2]

@bsp256 @scottwins2 Exodus.33 1.[11] And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp.... Gen.35 1.[7] And he built there an altar, and called the place El-beth-el: because there God appeared unto him...2.[9] And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padan-aram, and blessed him. Exod.241.[11] And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God,... more at lds.org or fairlds.org

[bsp256]

@scottwins2 Are you saying I should believe Joseph Smith, because there are verses you don't understand? I've made a video that shows how those verses are proof that Jesus is God for JWs.

At best, by not giving you own explanation of 1 Tim 6:16, all you're doing is showing that you think the Bible is false. Do you apply the same standard to the Bible as you do your own books? I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Book of Abraham in POGP.

Also, I'd be happy to explain those verses if you like.

[scottwins2]

I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true . . . . I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation" Joseph Smith In speechs and to family and friends he verified God the father and the Son.

[bsp256]

@scottwins2 A lot of people see a lot of visions. If Joseph Smith says he saw a vision, I'll believe him. I'll even believe that he sincerely believed he saw the Father. However, I have no reason to believe he actually saw God the Father when the Bible makes it abundantly clear that no one can see the Father and live.

Even if Smith were sincere, he could not have seen the Father, because that contradicts Scripture, and that makes him a false prophet.

[MrNinamarie]

Great points. Actually Joseph Smith left behind his own hand written copy of his first vision that makes no reference to the Father at all. It wasn't until years later that the current version emerged. Even after years of being a "prophet" he still didn't know the scriptures well enough to avoid this huge mistake. Some LDS will try to tell you that Stephen saw the Father in Acts 7, this is wrong too.