Dear Father Pavone. I agree that the end doesn't justify the means. ON this perticular situation, I am glad he is gone. He was a murder. If you are walking in a park and see a thug about to kill a defenseless person about to be attacked and the only means you have is deadly force, you are still obligated to protect the innocent. Mr Tiller the Baby Killer had multitudes of warning be it from God or humanity he was given many warnings but kept killing, live by the sword die by the sword.
I haven't seen Pavone gone out of his way to codemn the murder.
Some general comments on "murder is wrong" are always followed up: "don't have this act stop us from fighting against abortion".
Pavone is not responsible for the murder but he hasn't done anything to stop it or even properly condemn it. Talking about the risk of clamping down on right of assembly (harassing at hospitals) and comparing killing a human being to abortion is not condemning murder! Mr Pavone, you have lost gods ways
Let's pray that Fr. Frank will trash his pacifist heresy....
the Holy Crusades, American Revolution, Civil War, WWII, and Just Wars throughout history never would have been fought and won. If gutless cowards like Fr. Frank had their way against Christ & His Word, we would be speaking Arabic and praying to the false god, "Allah". God is VIOLENT and PEACEFUL only as He REVEALS IN HIS WORD -- God is certainly not Fr. Frank's pot smoking hippie deity! ;)
I will be forming a group that will do more than condemn the murder of Dr. Tiller. Retribution is going to be sooooooooooooo much fun. And you would have a martyr, but the problem with that is, nobody will notice certain individuals are missing. They'll just dissapear, by the hand of unseen, righteous forces that will tare the heart out of the right wing movement.
I won't quote from the above, but I'll summarize. Abortion rates are higher in developing countries where abortions are illegal or restircted and where contraception is not widely available. The greatest decrease in abortion rates have occurred in developed countries where abortions are legal and less restricted and where contraception is widely available. The data shows that women still get abortions even when it's illegal.
w w w. plannedparenthoodaction. org/campaigns/global-illegal-abortion-where-there-no-roe-an-examination-impact-o-589. htm
"Each year, about 26 million women have legal abortions; 20 million women have abortions in countries where abortion is restricted (for example, allowed only to save the life of the woman) or prohibited by law"
"In developing countries with restrictive laws, wealthier women seek abortions primarily from physicians, but millions of poor women attempt to end their pregnancies by unsafe means"
w w w. guttmacher. org/pubs/journals/25s3099. html
"Both developed and developing countries can have low abortion rates. Most countries, however, have moderate to high abortion rates, reflecting lower prevalence and effectiveness of contraceptive use. Stringent legal restrictions do not guarantee a low abortion rate."
By decreasing usage of contraception, the rate of abortions will increase.
"Increasing adolescent abortion rates show positive correlation with increasing belief and worship of a creator, and negative correlation with increasing non-theism and acceptance of evolution; again rates are uniquely high in the U.S. (Figure 8). Claims that secular cultures aggravate abortion rates (John Paul II) are therefore contradicted by the quantitative data."
"In the U.S., violence directed toward abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort."
"According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers."
"The first hoax letters claiming to contain anthrax were mailed to U.S. clinics in October 1998, a few days after the Slepian shooting; since then, there have been 655 such bioterror threats made against abortion providers."
"According to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").[10] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio."
Funny how so many "pro-lifers" seem to support the death penalty (despite the fact that a number of innocent people are in prison simply because they couldn't afford a good lawyer) unprovoked wars, torture, rounding people up at random without cause, and throwing them into military prisons, denying them the right to a fair trial (or any trial), based on nothing but their skin-color, nationality, or religion, oppose universal healthcare, and oppose all gun-control laws.
Where were you Pavone when your brothers were molesting and abusing living breathing children throughout the world over the better part of the last century? Filthy religious zealot.
@GodisanAbortionist He is not filthy. Abortion is just as big of an issue as Priestly pedophilia. But what can he do? The Church already has issues with numerous Bishops and liberal Catholics misrepresenting the Church, taking the blame for AIDS and STDs in third world nations, while caring for Nigerian, Sudanese, and middle-eastern Christians being persecuted, and you expect the Vatican Church city-state with a population of about 800 to take care of all these issues?
A representative of the Cathoic Church that protected child molesters, the Church that was compliant with the Nazi's killing Jews, the Church that killed untold number of hertics and 'witches' throughout history. Thanks for sharing your opinion from your position of moral superiority.
And, oh yeah, polls have shown that Christians in the US are the biggest supporters of torture. But, even to limit ourselves to the abortion issue, 'pro-life' activists have decades of history in threats, kidnappings, physical attacks, murders, arson, and bombings. If this is the moral right, I'd hate to see the immoral right. lol :)
Not true. Protecting the unborn is moral. Water boarding terrorists to save lives is moral. Compare that to killing the unborn of your own species. Tiller was a sick greedy baby killer.
You demonstrate the moral slippery slope that you're on. A circular argument underlies your rationalization.
Terrorists deserve to be tortured and so therefore anyone who is tortured must be a terrorist. Many of the people the US detained turned out to have no connections to terrorism. Also, analysis of the info gained by torture hasn't shown that any of it has been useful in saving lives.
As for Tiller, I think youu might be projecting your own self-hatred.
I love the efforts that you put in on the pro-life movement. Your show on EWTN, "Defending Life" is great. You and your co-host help me a lot in explaining the issues to pro-choicers. I have a question regarding birth control. On youtube, I was debating someone on birth control explaining that introducing it and condoms to an area or group does not lower the rate of abortions but rather the opposite. I cannot find the sources that I read this from. Can you give non-bias source
I thank you for a response, but unless I'm missing something (I may be a little thick), It did not answer my specific question. I do not try to be confrontational. I only say that as when writing word flection and such cannot be seen or heard. SO please if you could give a more precise answer to my question, I would very much appreciate it.
I would like to ask you a question. I agree with you on all pro-life matters and that it's wrong to kill Tiller. I think killing is wrong on either side. I've been praying about this matter. Yet, I cannot, no matter how hard I try, feel sorry for Tiller. Is there something wrong with me for not feeling anything for him. Am I committing a sin?
Priests for Life promotes only peaceful means to end abortion. Abortion itself is an act of violence, and we oppose it precisely because we oppose all violence. By violence we mean the deliberate and intentional physical harming of another person or of that person's property. When acts of violence have been committed by a few in order to fight abortion, Priests for Life has joined the numerous other pro-life groups in condemning such activity.
We have signed joint statements, participated in press conferences, and issued statements of our own which we would be happy to send you. We are also convinced that the more people take part in the peaceful activities that exist to end abortion, the fewer acts of violence will ever occur.
I will believe in peaceful pro-life activists, when one of you takes a bullet while protecting a doctor or clinic worker. I mean that seriously. Why are pro-life activists so much more violent than pro-choice activists? What is it about your movement that leads to so much violence? And why are peaceful pro-life activists such as yourself unable to counter the violent messages of the extremists within your own ranks?
Come to think of it, when was the last time that we heard of a pro-choicer blowing up a church?
Or shooting a pro-life activist to death?
Or posting the personal infornmation (name, face, address, place of work) of a pro-life activist on the internet, and saying to the world, "Here is our next target. Go kill him/her."?
@practicingcatholic im not frank pavone (obviously)...i dont think ure commiting a sin for that, its natural to feel that way, bu tmaybe u should ask the Lord to give u a heart for heartless people like tiller so u could understand that
Can you call a mass of cells a baby? No, you cannot. Then don`t say abortion is murder. I get that its a "Possible Human Being" but a zygote, a midly formed baby has the same humanity than the bunch of skin cells that die when you fall down in the street and get a bruise.
Because you support abortion. Anyone who thinks killing a helpless baby that can't fight back is a sick individual. You're nothing more than a bully. Why don't you pick on someone who can fight back? Oh wait I know, you're a coward.
Helpless baby? So you do consider a bunch of cells, without a conscience, without a mind, a baby? Don´t get me wrong, I believe that once the fetus has developed to the point in which in can think and feel, it is murder killing it. But in the first weeks or months, the "baby" is lacking that thing that makes it human, is lacking its humanity. It can´t think or feel. Will it feel pain at being aborted? No, it won´t even notice it, because it can´t. Its NOT a baby.
Does it really have to be about whether or not the "clump of cells" knows what is done to it? It is a human life from the first instant because it has a human destiny.
Tiller the baby killer killed human beings. Most of his murders were late term abortions. Babies in the womb can feel and are alive. It is outright murder plain and simple. How can you liberals be so cold and inhumane? Only murderous humans would deliberately kill their unborn. What a sick bunch of evil scum. Good luck at the judgement bar of god with your sick excuses. You know in your heart that abortion is an evil practice and that makes you guilty.
You know what else irks me? the incessant idea that judeo-christian values are somehow responsible for tollerance and understanding. IMPOSSIBLE: Judeo-Christian values have dominated society for thousands of years, and yet tollerance and understanding has only surfaced within the last 200 years. Right away we can see that whatever the cause for tollerance in the world is, it isn't the belief in a unifying deity which punishes us for not listening to the man with the collar. Good Day!
Since when is a fetus a child? If it was a child it wouldn't be called a fetus, got it?
Life begins at birth by definition. A human without consciousness, without moral choices, without desires, opinions, memories etc is NOT a human being. The destinction of human beings from other life forms is precisely all these things. I know it's hard to get that since you already believe that we are all sinners at birth
Were slaves living parastically inside the slave master?
No? Then its not comparable.
Slavery was legal, then the world progressed, we woke up to the fact that it was wrong and made it illegal.
Abortion was illegal, then the world progressed, we woke up to the fact that it was wrong to force women to either have kids no one wants or risk their lives having illegal procedures, and made it legal.
God Bless Fr. Frank. Our Parish is becoming very active in the pro life movement. There has been more interest now than ever. Thank God people are really waking up and willing to make great sacrifices to save the lives of these beautiful little babies. Thanks Fr. Frank. Peace.
Fr. Frank, Am I to understand that there is currently a 40-day period being proposed for fasting, pennance, and prayer, to help put an end to abortion? Where can I find information on that?
What has no sin is not dead. It returns to the father. It cannot be killed. That is why Jesus rose. But what has sinned is dead already. Revelations 22:11 is pretty clear, yet you do not teach it. You teach instead "Shameful Exposure" before the tree of Good and Evil. Make those stand which cannot. Do you not understand you anoint with ashes? The symbol of guilt? Yet, sin is supposed to be forgotten. You have rejected the covenant. You are why men will eat from the tree on the day of Gods Wrath
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forgive me for sounding blunt, i have no sympathy for Tiller, at all. he's murdered thousands in late terms, he deserved what he got. we executed Tookie Williams for 4 murders, i think a gunshot for thousands he's aborted isn't all the unreasonable
It's actually a good thing that Dr tiller was killed and it helps prove that the pro-life movement is a violent movement. There hasn't been any violence from pro-choicers directed at pro-lifers.
since you are not PRO LIFE, why are you wasting your time living. You should be against your own life. So are you gonna do something about it? Go Green and quit using valuable oxygen.
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when did he say he wasn't prolife? seems to me lady, it's followers of your movement who aren't pro life, you run around killing not only doctors, but nurses, & others who happen to get in the murderer's way!
are you saying we who are pro-choice kill living humans? no, that would be pro lifers, like those on your side.
outside of what you fucking believe, what proof do you have when life begins? proof baby, not speculation or what a goddamned lying preist told you. just stop your insanity!
Actually it tells us even more than that. It tells us that they have no points or arguments to make.
Violence is the last refuge of someone who has realised there is no rational way to make their point. If this person turned to violence and murder to make his point, then he HAS no point to make.
We can see your thrilled by Tiller's death. Pro-choicers are going to use this to attempt to discredit the pro-life movement. So predictable. The unibomber bombed people in the name of environmenatlism. This doesn't invalidate the Green Movement. My students steal from me, and justify it by saying that they are fighting the "man" who is oppressing them. (I guess I'm the ""man"). So does their stealing my pens discredit the civil rights movement? Your assertion is amusing at best.
you really cant compare the civil rights movement to a women's right to have an abortion. An entire race was being oppressed by an entire government, a women can choose to have an abortion, generally nobody forces a women to get an abortion.
What these fetus fetishists don't seem to understand is that "murder" is a legal charge. when they level that charge at us, that is slander. It is bearing false witness.
When they compare abortion to the holocaust, that is hate speach.
And then they profess no responsibility when some loon acts on that fantasy.
it's one issue if you abort a fetus that is very small, but aborting fetuses that have grown to 7 months? beings with functioning brains and nervous systems and all that stuff. i mean, oh my god, we're talking about a being that even pro-choicers agree has consciousness and can feel pain! i have held and played with a child born a couple of months premature, seen her respond differently to me than to her mother and seen her cry when frightened. we're not talking about a small mass of cells.
New 3D scans show a 12 week baby swinging as if in play in the mother's womb, at sixteen weeks an op to save an unborn, a photo taken showed the 16 weeks babe gripping the finger of the surgeon. Christians have to take the stand that abortion is wrong, sorry but the Bible is plain about this and the Bible does not give a time frame of how far gone the unborn child is. Who knows when they feel eh! we now know more than we did 10 years ago. A baby is innocent.
If you stick your finger in a venus fly trap it grips you. Can hurt too if it is a big trap. This does not mean its conscious. There are many reflex actions causes by the spinal nervous system at 12-16 weeks. You are reading too much into them.
As for the bible, it is hardly an authority on the matter. A bronze age work of fiction does not inform 21st century medical ethics.
Dear person, @ college, did they not teach you that a 'venus flytrap' has no heart or lungs. you are loaded up with straw man arguments. they fail to support your position. ALSO. The Bible is supported by manuscript, archeological, and historical evidence. MORE SO than Darwins THERORY of Evolution, which after 140+ years has proved to drop from Therory to Adult Fairy Tale. Regardless of the mass #'s of college profs. who hold to it as truth. Someone has lied to you, and you believed them.
Thanks for expaling my own point to me. My whole point IS that a venus fly trap has no heart or lungs. Yet we can see responses to stimuli in it and we can thereby assign intention to it. Thanks for making my point FOR me.
My point IS that these responses can not be interpreted as conciousness and life as we know it being human.
If you want to keep making my points for me I will welcome it, but really its not necessary. I can do it all by myself.
Sorry, but life trumps liberty. Always has always will. If life is not treated as something greater than liberty, then you are mere property, to be traded or disposed of at the whim of the owner. If life is of no more value than liberty, what prevents the state or any other individual from destroying life for profit? Oh, wait, the reason we want to kill the unborn is for mostly financial reasons. You know, I can't afford another kid, I need to finish my degree so I can make the big bucks. Yeaa.
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Sorry, but if you are going to sit there and presume to know the motives and reasons behind anyone having an abortion you are going to be wrong from the outset. You have basically invented a reason and extrapolated it to a vast generalisation about all people who have abortions. This point is so useless that for the first time I am not even able to reply to it because it is a non point from start to finish.
why not? would you have killed Hitler if you lived in his time? Nearly ten times more Americans have died from abortion than in the entirety of the Holocaust.
Neither do I. In fact I think there has been many Christian deminions that have out cried over the killing of an abortionist. Life belongs to God not to men. If many would see that the punishments set in Exodus were a prelude a teaching to the result of mortal sin, therefore where in Exodus death is given as punishment we know this is a mortal sin, and the murder of this man was also a grave mortal sin.
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I think that killing Tiller will strike fear into the hearts of those people who perform abortions. Believe me, they'll really be watching their backs now! We can strike at them any time any place any where! Here's a biblical passage which justifies Tiller getting killed: Romans 1:32-- "Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." It says it's alright in the Bible!
Wow, what a lot of hate there is in that book. I guess we are lucky we have not been shown any evidence to think there is a god, that we need to do anything that that book says, or that it is a moral authority on anything at all. Phew, close one huh?
So since you have no points of your own you choose instead to put words in other peoples mouths. Not very big of you.
I am pro choice up to 12 weeks, maybe even 16. At no point do i express and disgust at the presence of the fetus like you describe here.
If youve no points to make, dont make any. Putting words in the other peoples mouths to make up for your lack of points is what really is abhorrent here.
Hopefully, all that will change with the new "LIfe at Conception Act" Get your petitions signed and to your reps and senators. Donate to "Priests For Life " if you can. The pro Life movement is on the move in a big way right now, keep going.
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i wonder how much money this raving lunatic makes off of all you brainwashed individuals. also, how does this man promote god, he doesnt at all, he promotes hate.
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irishmauddib wrote:
"You ...move to what YOU think the people who wrote it think. You then say they must have thought X (in your opinion)..."
Absolute nonsense. You've obviously taken a pretty dizzying dose of relativity training. History, however, cares not a whit for anyone's need to see relativity everywhere. History is what happened. Period.
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America's founders wrote extensively, and those writings illustrate who they were and what they had in mind. The were Christians to the core, and they put the core principles of Christianity into a formula for government we now call the US Constitution.
Again replying to me in new comments instead of actual replies in the hope I wont see your reply. Fine, this level of dishonesty has gone too far, ive nothing left to say to you.
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Long threads tend to sink into a muddle, especially as they disappear under the pile, and as others add their own thoughts at various places. Your many comments here made it obvious as daylight you would soon see whatever I wrote.
Still, at this point we can only repeat ourselves, so better just agree to disagree. Nothing was ever personal, of course. And, as you'll no doubt, agree, any attempt to convince you personally would have been a lost cause from the start.. lol All the best to you.
Unfortunately, the "abortion is a right" crowd tends to have very little understanding of the US Constitution or its significance to the whole concept of human rights in America. Foreigners are especially confused, which is understandable.
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So let me clarify and background a few basics about our Constitution :
- It is carved in stone. Not only is it not customizable on the fly, the process for amending it was deliberately made tough - very tough.
- The USA works by virtue of its Constitution. Throughout history, and on any given day, it is the framework, the plan by which the US functions as a government.
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- The Constitution was founded and formed by Christian values universally expressed to accommodate all.
Meaning, the human minds who create the Constitution were, by their Christian experience, aware of the fact that human life is inherently and eternally precious. The Constitution is an expression of that awareness. Period.
Bad comments. You start saying what the constitution IS, then move to what YOU think the people who wrote it think. You then say they must have thought X (in your opinion) so X is therefore implied. No way.. No how.. Not thanks.
We go by what is in it, now by what you think should be. Just being christian infers NONE of what you said. Theres over 33k branches of Christianity and some of them believe in death. You operate on a presumption that YOUR interpretation of Christianity is right
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To say that America's Founding Fathers did not intend to guarantee "abortion rights" understates the case by light years. They would have reacted even to the suggestion of such rights with an overwhelming disgust.
Appeal to authority. I rather talk about the law now, the people now, the facts now, the arguments now.
If you want to go off imagining what dead people in the past would have said then thats fine with me, but dont expect me to discuss it with you. My interest is in the people of today and what THEY vote and have legal.
And like I said abortion is legal now so get over it. Campaign and vote if you want that changed, just like I campaign and vote to have it reduced to 12 weeks not 24
Replying to me in new comments again I see. Very brave.
As I said before, in these cases where people have seen wrong them campaigned to make it wrong. As I said if you think abortion is also wrong in this fashion then get out and have it declared so. I will see you down the voting booth.
But simply comparing the two doesnt mean that one is automatically wrong because the other is. Youll get nowhere with that. Go campaign and vote. Ill do the same.
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Um, this is an answer...? Setting aside its lack if stand-alone logic (-trying to gauge how much time/money a commenter has spent getting xxx elected/passed is a pretty looney way to try to end a political debate in which both sides are posting for public view, lol), your reply doesn't remotely answer my rather simple and obviously relevant questions.
I stand by my answer. We decide together what is right and wrong, democratically. IF you think abortion is wrong then get out and campaign and vote. I will see you in the voting booths.
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irishmauddib wrote:
"We decide together what is right and wrong, democratically."
Actually, no, this is utterly false.
My own country, the USA, is not a pure democracy by any stretch. America is a constitutional democracy, a republic. And one extremely important component of America's constitution is the protection it guarantees the individual or the minority against any arbitrary will of the majority.
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Our founders, the architects of the US constitution, tried to create a government based on certain self-evident, universal values and principles. They believed that the value of any majority's will should always take a back seat to the values built into life itself.
Yea, with us subjectively interpretating what those "built in" values are, which in essence leaves you back with us deciding together what is right or wrong. Sitting there claiming that your view is the correct built in one is just white noise.
It is still a democratic system where we change what we think we need to change. If you dont like the law or the system then either change it or leave it.
"Yea, with us subjectively interpretating what those "built in" values..."
No, subjectivity is exactly what America's founders warned against, tried to constitutionally immunize their country against.
Whether anybody likes it or not, the US constitution was written to support God-given values -- i.e. human rights "endowed by our Creator". This is simply historical fact and it is not honestly arguable.
Change of subject, I said nothing about god. Just because they warned against something doesnt mean its not still there. So I stand by what I said. Even if theres "built in" objective values, which I see no reason to believe, our attempt to figure them out is just as subjective.
If you want to talk god and objectivity, it is the same issue as interpretations of things like the bible are subjective too and no one agrees on them. Hence over 32000 different branches of christianity.
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frphilipmullen
The Church teaches that God created the universe - and that He continues to sustain it with the same power with which He put into it in the beginning - and that what God has created is good.
There is no De fide Dogma which says that the universe was created all at once. Not one. In fact, the Church leans toward the hypothesis that the universe is still expanding - in other words - creation began at one point and has never stopped since - nor ever will..
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frphilipmullen
To absolutely correct, the Catholic Church has not one De fide Dogma on the subject. Not one.
Interpreting the entire Bible to be read literally in every sense has never been the teaching of the Catholic Church. The correct interpretation is left to the Magisterium alone, who then guides the flock accordingly. It's called Tradition.
The total internal-nuclear and nuclear binding force within and between the hadrons which form the molecules of just 17 grains of sand, is equivalent to all the chemical energy of all the barrels of oil - One Trillion - that we've ever burnt.
That is- 6,117 exajoules.
Now where do you think all that energy came from - and how it has come to be in this form?
Courtesy of a leprechaun working at the bottom of the garden perhaps?
Playing god of the gaps again are you? I am asking for positive evidence for a god, not you saying "We do not understand X so therefore god must have done it".
Come back to me when you get positive evidence and gods of the gap is not your only card to play.
So what you are saying here then is you HAVE no evidence for a god? Thanks, thats all you had to say!
Back to contradicting yourself I see. First you said we were human from the moment of conception then you said the zygote BECOMES human. Make up your mind.
I said a nose hair does not divide and grow to become a complete human being.
A zygote is a Human Being - a Human Being from the moment of conception - with a complete set of chromosomes. And a complete program for continued growth and development.
Evidence for God? It's all around you. Just take a closer look.
I know what you said, then you said the zygote BECOMES a human, totally contradicting yourself. You also have not answered what make it human. Since many cells can divide and grow. What makes it have rights that a plant or a cow do not? What definition of "human" are you using. You have avoided that question now more times than I have fingers to count it.
IF the evidence for god is all around me, why are you totally unable to give me any of it?
But why. Just saying it doesnt make it so. What definition are you working with. This is the question I have asked more times than I have fingers and you just wont answer it.
Just SAYING that it becomes human at that time doesnt make it true. Why does it. Whats your definitions
It doesn't, twinning can occur for days after conception. Are you belittling identical twins? Are they not singular human beings?
If your answer is yes then humanity does not begin at conception, having a human genetic code does. However, a human genetic cose does not make you human, conscious thought, self awareness etc, these are the things that make you human.
No,this last twist of my words has finally eroded all credibility you had in my eyes. Frankly you have evaded my questions for too long and im bored with it. Youve twisted my words, insulted me, made up lies about me and contradicted even yourself at every turn. Ive nothing more to say to someone of this level of honesty and intelligence. Ive nothing to learn from you.
AGain, your lies, insults, twisting of my words and avoiding of my questions has gone too far. Ive nothing left to say to you and nothing left to learn from you.
This fight only seems to get tougher. I have gotten hateful messages because of the videoes I share on my channel and the comments I leave on them. I wish Tiller would have been put in jail for his crimes, but murdering him was not the answer.
A "self-evident truth" is not debatable. There are no other options. It is true simply because it is true. That is the way it is. The fact that the universe was created by a Master Designer is a "self-evident truth." The human mind is compelled to conclude that there is a creator, a First Cause. That thought is a "self-evident truth."
Calling something a self evident truth does not make it so. I could claim any weird thing I made up is "self evident" this does not make it so. If you have no evidence for a god then you have no evidence for a god. You can not define it into existance.
The universe is infinite therefore, no matter how small those numbers are there is a 100% chance that they will happen by conventional mathematics. Rarely yes, but they will.
I suppose you believe that evolution is a liethat the universe is 4000 years old and the earth is the centre of it :)
Both the creationist idea and Darwinism, that is, unassisted evolution - are both incorrect.
Evolution is a reality - but it is assisted evolution. Man however is another story.
The universe is at least 8 billion years old, but probably much older - as much as 100 billion years.
The universe is not infinite either in spatial volume, nor of the quantity of material in it. Both spatial volume and the quantity of material in it are increasing exponentially.
So religious theory regarding teh earth is changable depending on how well it can defend itself against science?
Evolution has tonnes of evidence to support it, creationism has the book of genesis which is at best metaphorical. And you may well say ,like many do, that picking teh bible apart is too easy.
If it the incarnate truth of teh universe then it shouldn't be that easy.
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21stCenturyPala
I've never subscribed to the creationist theory - and the Catholic Church does not either. It does not teach that the world was created in just a few thousand years.
Nor do I subscribe to Darwinism - or unassisted evolution.. I regard it as a ridiculous nonsense.
As ridiculous as the notion that slaughtering innocent babes in their own mother's womb is somehow OK.
It did, before science proved otherwise. Likewise it took til the early 90s for the Vatican to openly admit the earth was not teh centre of the universe.
Dr. Harold Morowitz, professor of Molecular Chemistry at Yale University, has concluded that the odds of life creating itself by chance are one in 10 followed by one billion zeroes! Lastly, Edward Conklin, a biologist, has stated that, "The probability of life originating from accident (or chance) is comparable to the probability of an unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion in a print shop." In other words, the universe originating by chance has NO CHANCE!
Waiting now for your explanation of how someone can calculate the odds for something without knowing how that something happened. I am AGOG to hear your explanation for that one.
Mike Stubbs has calculated the chance of insulin, an important protein hormone secreted by the pancreas, developing by chance at 3x10 to the power of 158. He states that even if there was a machine which could sort the amino acids that make up insulin into groups of 512 at a rate of one billion per second, it would take 10 to the power of 52 years to produce 10 to the power of 68 combinations, only one of which would be insulin.
Same problem, you are citing subjective guess work here. And also just because something is improbable does not mean it did not happen that way either. Nothing you are saying here is a proof for god, all it is is a proof that we dont know what caused it all yet.
Some scientists have measured the chance of a replicating (defined as a repetition of an experiment under controlled conditions so that a specific result may be observed) molecule occurring by chance at 10 to the power of 450.
Prof. Frank Salisbury has calculated the probability of a typical DNA chain arising by chance to be 10 to the power of 600. (DNA is the basic building block of life, and it has a zero probability of occurring by chance).
Again these calculations are subjective as we do not have all the data. We do not know how the first relicating entity began. How can you work out the probability of something happening without knowing how it happened? You cant, therefore these calculations are also impossibly subjective. Guess work.
Sir Fred Hoyle, one of the leading scientists of this age, has computed the number of chances necessary for even the simplest life imaginable to have evolved by chance to be one chance in 10 to the power of 40,000. (That is roughly comparable to the probability of rolling double sixes, 12 on two dice, 50,000 times in a row!).
Appeal to authority here. These calculations tell us nothing at all. We do not have all the data and so such a probability is subjective at best and a canard at worst.
The Universe was created by something larger than itself since the First Law of Thermodynamics says that energy cannot be created; only changed from one form into another. The universe therefore had to be created by something outside itself, because of the same law.
Now, in Probability Mathematics, any chance with less than one chance in 10 followed by 110 zeroes has no chance, so keeping that in mind take a look at the following calculations:
Frankfly we just do not know why the universe took on its current for nor where the singularity it has formed from came from, or even if the concept of a beginning and an end even means anything in this context.
However just because it is complicated and we do not know where it came from does not suddenly mean "god did it".
Often in the abortion debate, the subject of God is brought up by those who are pro-abortion. Many of these people claim that there is no substance for belief in God, therefore related moral stances have no relevance.
I disagree that there is no substance for belief in God. Here are just a few of the scientific reasons:
Well you were the first one to bring up gods, not me. I thought, despite your insults and hate, that we at least were keeping the conversation in the real world. Sorry to see youve gone down the fantasy road now on top of everything else.
Dear Father Pavone. I agree that the end doesn't justify the means. ON this perticular situation, I am glad he is gone. He was a murder. If you are walking in a park and see a thug about to kill a defenseless person about to be attacked and the only means you have is deadly force, you are still obligated to protect the innocent. Mr Tiller the Baby Killer had multitudes of warning be it from God or humanity he was given many warnings but kept killing, live by the sword die by the sword.
mikewarmblood 11 months ago
I haven't seen Pavone gone out of his way to codemn the murder.
Some general comments on "murder is wrong" are always followed up: "don't have this act stop us from fighting against abortion".
Pavone is not responsible for the murder but he hasn't done anything to stop it or even properly condemn it. Talking about the risk of clamping down on right of assembly (harassing at hospitals) and comparing killing a human being to abortion is not condemning murder! Mr Pavone, you have lost gods ways
sjakie2408 1 year ago
what do you mean act of muder
ITS NOT DEATH WHEN A LIBBIE ATHEIST SINNER DIES!
unlike real huamns they dont have the word of GOD in them
bobby21349 1 year ago
Than God Tiller is DEAD! :)
Let's pray that Fr. Frank will trash his pacifist heresy....
the Holy Crusades, American Revolution, Civil War, WWII, and Just Wars throughout history never would have been fought and won. If gutless cowards like Fr. Frank had their way against Christ & His Word, we would be speaking Arabic and praying to the false god, "Allah". God is VIOLENT and PEACEFUL only as He REVEALS IN HIS WORD -- God is certainly not Fr. Frank's pot smoking hippie deity! ;)
USAsoldier1955 1 year ago
God forgive me, I'm glad baby-killer is killed!
although could be he was assassinated by the same people who hired him in order to shut up pro-life activists in a future!
monsantofoodpoison 1 year ago
I will be forming a group that will do more than condemn the murder of Dr. Tiller. Retribution is going to be sooooooooooooo much fun. And you would have a martyr, but the problem with that is, nobody will notice certain individuals are missing. They'll just dissapear, by the hand of unseen, righteous forces that will tare the heart out of the right wing movement.
taosimplicity 1 year ago
w w w. guttmacher. org/pubs/fb_IAW. html
I won't quote from the above, but I'll summarize. Abortion rates are higher in developing countries where abortions are illegal or restircted and where contraception is not widely available. The greatest decrease in abortion rates have occurred in developed countries where abortions are legal and less restricted and where contraception is widely available. The data shows that women still get abortions even when it's illegal.
MarmaladeINFP 1 year ago
w w w. plannedparenthoodaction. org/campaigns/global-illegal-abortion-where-there-no-roe-an-examination-impact-o-589. htm
"Each year, about 26 million women have legal abortions; 20 million women have abortions in countries where abortion is restricted (for example, allowed only to save the life of the woman) or prohibited by law"
MarmaladeINFP 1 year ago
"In developing countries with restrictive laws, wealthier women seek abortions primarily from physicians, but millions of poor women attempt to end their pregnancies by unsafe means"
MarmaladeINFP 1 year ago
w w w. guttmacher. org/pubs/journals/25s3099. html
"Both developed and developing countries can have low abortion rates. Most countries, however, have moderate to high abortion rates, reflecting lower prevalence and effectiveness of contraceptive use. Stringent legal restrictions do not guarantee a low abortion rate."
By decreasing usage of contraception, the rate of abortions will increase.
MarmaladeINFP 1 year ago
moses. creighton. edu/JRS/2005/2005-11. html
"Increasing adolescent abortion rates show positive correlation with increasing belief and worship of a creator, and negative correlation with increasing non-theism and acceptance of evolution; again rates are uniquely high in the U.S. (Figure 8). Claims that secular cultures aggravate abortion rates (John Paul II) are therefore contradicted by the quantitative data."
MarmaladeINFP 1 year ago
en. wikipedia. org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence
"In the U.S., violence directed toward abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort."
MarmaladeINFP 1 year ago
"According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers."
MarmaladeINFP 1 year ago
"The first hoax letters claiming to contain anthrax were mailed to U.S. clinics in October 1998, a few days after the Slepian shooting; since then, there have been 655 such bioterror threats made against abortion providers."
MarmaladeINFP 1 year ago
"According to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").[10] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio."
MarmaladeINFP 1 year ago
Funny how so many "pro-lifers" seem to support the death penalty (despite the fact that a number of innocent people are in prison simply because they couldn't afford a good lawyer) unprovoked wars, torture, rounding people up at random without cause, and throwing them into military prisons, denying them the right to a fair trial (or any trial), based on nothing but their skin-color, nationality, or religion, oppose universal healthcare, and oppose all gun-control laws.
SinnFein4ever 1 year ago
Where were you Pavone when your brothers were molesting and abusing living breathing children throughout the world over the better part of the last century? Filthy religious zealot.
GodisanAbortionist 1 year ago 4
@GodisanAbortionist He is not filthy. Abortion is just as big of an issue as Priestly pedophilia. But what can he do? The Church already has issues with numerous Bishops and liberal Catholics misrepresenting the Church, taking the blame for AIDS and STDs in third world nations, while caring for Nigerian, Sudanese, and middle-eastern Christians being persecuted, and you expect the Vatican Church city-state with a population of about 800 to take care of all these issues?
KCspur92 2 days ago
God has the master plan so all these abortions must be God's plans for the little clump of cells.
kingachybraky 2 years ago
A representative of the Cathoic Church that protected child molesters, the Church that was compliant with the Nazi's killing Jews, the Church that killed untold number of hertics and 'witches' throughout history. Thanks for sharing your opinion from your position of moral superiority.
MarmaladeINFP 2 years ago
They didn't murder babies like you vile baby killers do.
bushbarnes 2 years ago
And, oh yeah, polls have shown that Christians in the US are the biggest supporters of torture. But, even to limit ourselves to the abortion issue, 'pro-life' activists have decades of history in threats, kidnappings, physical attacks, murders, arson, and bombings. If this is the moral right, I'd hate to see the immoral right. lol :)
MarmaladeINFP 2 years ago 3
Not true. Protecting the unborn is moral. Water boarding terrorists to save lives is moral. Compare that to killing the unborn of your own species. Tiller was a sick greedy baby killer.
bushbarnes 2 years ago
You demonstrate the moral slippery slope that you're on. A circular argument underlies your rationalization.
Terrorists deserve to be tortured and so therefore anyone who is tortured must be a terrorist. Many of the people the US detained turned out to have no connections to terrorism. Also, analysis of the info gained by torture hasn't shown that any of it has been useful in saving lives.
As for Tiller, I think youu might be projecting your own self-hatred.
MarmaladeINFP 2 years ago
Sorry I didnt realize that you were crazy.
bushbarnes 2 years ago
Are you a child or mentally challenged? Are you even capable of logic? Is your only recourse to call names like a child on a playground?
Well, okay... if that is the only level of discussion you can understand...
I'm rubber and you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you. Nanananana!
Sheesh...
MarmaladeINFP 2 years ago
Fr. Pavone,
I love the efforts that you put in on the pro-life movement. Your show on EWTN, "Defending Life" is great. You and your co-host help me a lot in explaining the issues to pro-choicers. I have a question regarding birth control. On youtube, I was debating someone on birth control explaining that introducing it and condoms to an area or group does not lower the rate of abortions but rather the opposite. I cannot find the sources that I read this from. Can you give non-bias source
practicingcatholic 2 years ago
Fr. Pavone,
I thank you for a response, but unless I'm missing something (I may be a little thick), It did not answer my specific question. I do not try to be confrontational. I only say that as when writing word flection and such cannot be seen or heard. SO please if you could give a more precise answer to my question, I would very much appreciate it.
practicingcatholic 2 years ago
Fr. Pavone.
I would like to ask you a question. I agree with you on all pro-life matters and that it's wrong to kill Tiller. I think killing is wrong on either side. I've been praying about this matter. Yet, I cannot, no matter how hard I try, feel sorry for Tiller. Is there something wrong with me for not feeling anything for him. Am I committing a sin?
practicingcatholic 2 years ago
Priests for Life promotes only peaceful means to end abortion. Abortion itself is an act of violence, and we oppose it precisely because we oppose all violence. By violence we mean the deliberate and intentional physical harming of another person or of that person's property. When acts of violence have been committed by a few in order to fight abortion, Priests for Life has joined the numerous other pro-life groups in condemning such activity.
FrFrankPavone 2 years ago
We have signed joint statements, participated in press conferences, and issued statements of our own which we would be happy to send you. We are also convinced that the more people take part in the peaceful activities that exist to end abortion, the fewer acts of violence will ever occur.
FrFrankPavone 2 years ago
I will believe in peaceful pro-life activists, when one of you takes a bullet while protecting a doctor or clinic worker. I mean that seriously. Why are pro-life activists so much more violent than pro-choice activists? What is it about your movement that leads to so much violence? And why are peaceful pro-life activists such as yourself unable to counter the violent messages of the extremists within your own ranks?
MarmaladeINFP 2 years ago
@MarmaladeINFP
Come to think of it, when was the last time that we heard of a pro-choicer blowing up a church?
Or shooting a pro-life activist to death?
Or posting the personal infornmation (name, face, address, place of work) of a pro-life activist on the internet, and saying to the world, "Here is our next target. Go kill him/her."?
SinnFein4ever 1 year ago
@practicingcatholic im not frank pavone (obviously)...i dont think ure commiting a sin for that, its natural to feel that way, bu tmaybe u should ask the Lord to give u a heart for heartless people like tiller so u could understand that
patriciacarrasco 4 months ago in playlist More videos from FrFrankPavone
Can you call a mass of cells a baby? No, you cannot. Then don`t say abortion is murder. I get that its a "Possible Human Being" but a zygote, a midly formed baby has the same humanity than the bunch of skin cells that die when you fall down in the street and get a bruise.
AtlasRevealed 2 years ago
Can you call an idiot like you a man? No Atlas, you cannot. You are a sick individual.
TiredOfTheIdiotLeft 2 years ago
Sick Individual? How so? Explain in which ways I disgust you, I will happily retort.
AtlasRevealed 2 years ago
Because you support abortion. Anyone who thinks killing a helpless baby that can't fight back is a sick individual. You're nothing more than a bully. Why don't you pick on someone who can fight back? Oh wait I know, you're a coward.
TiredOfTheIdiotLeft 2 years ago
Helpless baby? So you do consider a bunch of cells, without a conscience, without a mind, a baby? Don´t get me wrong, I believe that once the fetus has developed to the point in which in can think and feel, it is murder killing it. But in the first weeks or months, the "baby" is lacking that thing that makes it human, is lacking its humanity. It can´t think or feel. Will it feel pain at being aborted? No, it won´t even notice it, because it can´t. Its NOT a baby.
AtlasRevealed 2 years ago
Does it really have to be about whether or not the "clump of cells" knows what is done to it? It is a human life from the first instant because it has a human destiny.
graceisaverb 2 years ago
Tiller the baby killer killed human beings. Most of his murders were late term abortions. Babies in the womb can feel and are alive. It is outright murder plain and simple. How can you liberals be so cold and inhumane? Only murderous humans would deliberately kill their unborn. What a sick bunch of evil scum. Good luck at the judgement bar of god with your sick excuses. You know in your heart that abortion is an evil practice and that makes you guilty.
bushbarnes 2 years ago
You know what else irks me? the incessant idea that judeo-christian values are somehow responsible for tollerance and understanding. IMPOSSIBLE: Judeo-Christian values have dominated society for thousands of years, and yet tollerance and understanding has only surfaced within the last 200 years. Right away we can see that whatever the cause for tollerance in the world is, it isn't the belief in a unifying deity which punishes us for not listening to the man with the collar. Good Day!
Sam26100 2 years ago
"Lives of those children"
You just can't stop butchering language can you?
Since when is a fetus a child? If it was a child it wouldn't be called a fetus, got it?
Life begins at birth by definition. A human without consciousness, without moral choices, without desires, opinions, memories etc is NOT a human being. The destinction of human beings from other life forms is precisely all these things. I know it's hard to get that since you already believe that we are all sinners at birth
Sam26100 2 years ago
Fetus means "small child" in Latin.
dianaberry9393 2 years ago
And the word "Birth" means the beginning of life. A human isn't alive until he is Born
Sam26100 2 years ago
we will pray for you, God Bless
G00FYG00BER5 2 years ago
it took almost 2000 years for humanity to discover that slavery was wrong, how long will it take for people realize that abortion is wrong?
TheEcumenator 2 years ago
Were slaves living parastically inside the slave master?
No? Then its not comparable.
Slavery was legal, then the world progressed, we woke up to the fact that it was wrong and made it illegal.
Abortion was illegal, then the world progressed, we woke up to the fact that it was wrong to force women to either have kids no one wants or risk their lives having illegal procedures, and made it legal.
vmcparlin 2 years ago
God Bless Fr. Frank. Our Parish is becoming very active in the pro life movement. There has been more interest now than ever. Thank God people are really waking up and willing to make great sacrifices to save the lives of these beautiful little babies. Thanks Fr. Frank. Peace.
Tolyasooo 2 years ago
Tolyasoo,
God Bless you and your parish for getting involved.
FrFrankPavone 2 years ago
Fr. Frank, Am I to understand that there is currently a 40-day period being proposed for fasting, pennance, and prayer, to help put an end to abortion? Where can I find information on that?
Divine Blessings
1r1shCath0l1c 2 years ago
The 40 days for Life website. Since October's 40 Days has ended, the next will take place during Lent.
FrFrankPavone 2 years ago
What has no sin is not dead. It returns to the father. It cannot be killed. That is why Jesus rose. But what has sinned is dead already. Revelations 22:11 is pretty clear, yet you do not teach it. You teach instead "Shameful Exposure" before the tree of Good and Evil. Make those stand which cannot. Do you not understand you anoint with ashes? The symbol of guilt? Yet, sin is supposed to be forgotten. You have rejected the covenant. You are why men will eat from the tree on the day of Gods Wrath
Pipesofpan 2 years ago
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talk about a stupid priest doing exactly what his church is against. inciting a riot where none is warrented.
you stupid fuck pavone, the government is not going to clamp down on anyones freedoms (unless it was your god damned pal bush).
why the fuck did you say that? on what authority...did you have a converstation with christ and he personally told you this, you fucking liar?
when pavone, will you learn to stop your god damned fucking lying. you're one sick bastard.
you make me sick!
wntoply6 2 years ago
Lunatic Fringe!
wrodjr 2 years ago
Thank you again for your support. God Bless.
FrFrankPavone 2 years ago
Thank you for your prayers and support. God Bless!
FrFrankPavone 2 years ago
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forgive me for sounding blunt, i have no sympathy for Tiller, at all. he's murdered thousands in late terms, he deserved what he got. we executed Tookie Williams for 4 murders, i think a gunshot for thousands he's aborted isn't all the unreasonable
Reaganwannabe 2 years ago
It's actually a good thing that Dr tiller was killed and it helps prove that the pro-life movement is a violent movement. There hasn't been any violence from pro-choicers directed at pro-lifers.
Super0Desu 2 years ago
since you are not PRO LIFE, why are you wasting your time living. You should be against your own life. So are you gonna do something about it? Go Green and quit using valuable oxygen.
mrsgrout 2 years ago
"since you..."
Wow, I read this and I wonder how you had the gall to accuse me of strawmen arguments. For shame, you engage in it yourself much more.
irishmauddib 2 years ago
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when did he say he wasn't prolife? seems to me lady, it's followers of your movement who aren't pro life, you run around killing not only doctors, but nurses, & others who happen to get in the murderer's way!
are you saying we who are pro-choice kill living humans? no, that would be pro lifers, like those on your side.
outside of what you fucking believe, what proof do you have when life begins? proof baby, not speculation or what a goddamned lying preist told you. just stop your insanity!
wntoply6 2 years ago
Actually it tells us even more than that. It tells us that they have no points or arguments to make.
Violence is the last refuge of someone who has realised there is no rational way to make their point. If this person turned to violence and murder to make his point, then he HAS no point to make.
irishmauddib 2 years ago
what about the girl who was aboducted and forced to have an abortion? that's violence
Reaganwannabe 2 years ago
We can see your thrilled by Tiller's death. Pro-choicers are going to use this to attempt to discredit the pro-life movement. So predictable. The unibomber bombed people in the name of environmenatlism. This doesn't invalidate the Green Movement. My students steal from me, and justify it by saying that they are fighting the "man" who is oppressing them. (I guess I'm the ""man"). So does their stealing my pens discredit the civil rights movement? Your assertion is amusing at best.
futures802 2 years ago
you really cant compare the civil rights movement to a women's right to have an abortion. An entire race was being oppressed by an entire government, a women can choose to have an abortion, generally nobody forces a women to get an abortion.
Super0Desu 2 years ago
Sure I can. The life of the woman is of no more value than that of the baby she wishes to murder. Pro-life IS the new civil rights.
futures802 2 years ago
What these fetus fetishists don't seem to understand is that "murder" is a legal charge. when they level that charge at us, that is slander. It is bearing false witness.
When they compare abortion to the holocaust, that is hate speach.
And then they profess no responsibility when some loon acts on that fantasy.
pirbird14 2 years ago
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it's one issue if you abort a fetus that is very small, but aborting fetuses that have grown to 7 months? beings with functioning brains and nervous systems and all that stuff. i mean, oh my god, we're talking about a being that even pro-choicers agree has consciousness and can feel pain! i have held and played with a child born a couple of months premature, seen her respond differently to me than to her mother and seen her cry when frightened. we're not talking about a small mass of cells.
squarerootof20 2 years ago
where's the line?
squarerootof20 2 years ago
Father Frank loves children, that's why he works for a origination that molests them.
AAL 2 years ago
New 3D scans show a 12 week baby swinging as if in play in the mother's womb, at sixteen weeks an op to save an unborn, a photo taken showed the 16 weeks babe gripping the finger of the surgeon. Christians have to take the stand that abortion is wrong, sorry but the Bible is plain about this and the Bible does not give a time frame of how far gone the unborn child is. Who knows when they feel eh! we now know more than we did 10 years ago. A baby is innocent.
paronaaron 2 years ago
If you stick your finger in a venus fly trap it grips you. Can hurt too if it is a big trap. This does not mean its conscious. There are many reflex actions causes by the spinal nervous system at 12-16 weeks. You are reading too much into them.
As for the bible, it is hardly an authority on the matter. A bronze age work of fiction does not inform 21st century medical ethics.
irishmauddib 2 years ago
Dear person, @ college, did they not teach you that a 'venus flytrap' has no heart or lungs. you are loaded up with straw man arguments. they fail to support your position. ALSO. The Bible is supported by manuscript, archeological, and historical evidence. MORE SO than Darwins THERORY of Evolution, which after 140+ years has proved to drop from Therory to Adult Fairy Tale. Regardless of the mass #'s of college profs. who hold to it as truth. Someone has lied to you, and you believed them.
mrsgrout 2 years ago
Thanks for expaling my own point to me. My whole point IS that a venus fly trap has no heart or lungs. Yet we can see responses to stimuli in it and we can thereby assign intention to it. Thanks for making my point FOR me.
My point IS that these responses can not be interpreted as conciousness and life as we know it being human.
If you want to keep making my points for me I will welcome it, but really its not necessary. I can do it all by myself.
irishmauddib 2 years ago
Sorry, but life trumps liberty. Always has always will. If life is not treated as something greater than liberty, then you are mere property, to be traded or disposed of at the whim of the owner. If life is of no more value than liberty, what prevents the state or any other individual from destroying life for profit? Oh, wait, the reason we want to kill the unborn is for mostly financial reasons. You know, I can't afford another kid, I need to finish my degree so I can make the big bucks. Yeaa.
futures802 2 years ago
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Sorry, but if you are going to sit there and presume to know the motives and reasons behind anyone having an abortion you are going to be wrong from the outset. You have basically invented a reason and extrapolated it to a vast generalisation about all people who have abortions. This point is so useless that for the first time I am not even able to reply to it because it is a non point from start to finish.
irishmauddib 2 years ago
Ah shaadup irishmauddib. Do the right thing
and stick your conceited head right up your ass.
Talon45451 2 years ago 9
This comment has received too many negative votes show
When you have a point to make come back to me. However this trolling will not work on me.
irishmauddib 2 years ago
I'm against abortion. But I do not condone people who kill those kinds of doctors. There is only a few pro-life rebels like that.
healthnbeauty1 2 years ago 8
why not? would you have killed Hitler if you lived in his time? Nearly ten times more Americans have died from abortion than in the entirety of the Holocaust.
ElCapitan327 2 years ago
Yeah I know but there are other ways of people being punished.
healthnbeauty1 2 years ago
Neither do I. In fact I think there has been many Christian deminions that have out cried over the killing of an abortionist. Life belongs to God not to men. If many would see that the punishments set in Exodus were a prelude a teaching to the result of mortal sin, therefore where in Exodus death is given as punishment we know this is a mortal sin, and the murder of this man was also a grave mortal sin.
paronaaron 2 years ago
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Lunatic Fringe!
wrodjr 2 years ago
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I think that killing Tiller will strike fear into the hearts of those people who perform abortions. Believe me, they'll really be watching their backs now! We can strike at them any time any place any where! Here's a biblical passage which justifies Tiller getting killed: Romans 1:32-- "Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." It says it's alright in the Bible!
bushnest 2 years ago
Wow, what a lot of hate there is in that book. I guess we are lucky we have not been shown any evidence to think there is a god, that we need to do anything that that book says, or that it is a moral authority on anything at all. Phew, close one huh?
irishmauddib 2 years ago
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The current law treats the unborn child like he/she is guilty of a capital crime. Warranting the death sentence on a whim.
Yet they have committed no crime - except in the minds of the pro-aborts.
The very presence of the unborn child to the pro-aborts appears to be abhorrent to their twisted way of thinking.
People to be dismissed as somehow 'not human'.
And in some cases just a 'parasite' consisting of 'a clump of cells'.
How twisted - how savage - how uncivilized.
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
So since you have no points of your own you choose instead to put words in other peoples mouths. Not very big of you.
I am pro choice up to 12 weeks, maybe even 16. At no point do i express and disgust at the presence of the fetus like you describe here.
If youve no points to make, dont make any. Putting words in the other peoples mouths to make up for your lack of points is what really is abhorrent here.
irishmauddib 2 years ago
Hopefully, all that will change with the new "LIfe at Conception Act" Get your petitions signed and to your reps and senators. Donate to "Priests For Life " if you can. The pro Life movement is on the move in a big way right now, keep going.
Tolyasooo 2 years ago
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i wonder how much money this raving lunatic makes off of all you brainwashed individuals. also, how does this man promote god, he doesnt at all, he promotes hate.
fedex482 2 years ago
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irishmauddib wrote:
"You ...move to what YOU think the people who wrote it think. You then say they must have thought X (in your opinion)..."
Absolute nonsense. You've obviously taken a pretty dizzying dose of relativity training. History, however, cares not a whit for anyone's need to see relativity everywhere. History is what happened. Period.
PanWayOut 2 years ago
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America's founders wrote extensively, and those writings illustrate who they were and what they had in mind. The were Christians to the core, and they put the core principles of Christianity into a formula for government we now call the US Constitution.
PanWayOut 2 years ago
Again replying to me in new comments instead of actual replies in the hope I wont see your reply. Fine, this level of dishonesty has gone too far, ive nothing left to say to you.
irishmauddib 2 years ago
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Long threads tend to sink into a muddle, especially as they disappear under the pile, and as others add their own thoughts at various places. Your many comments here made it obvious as daylight you would soon see whatever I wrote.
Still, at this point we can only repeat ourselves, so better just agree to disagree. Nothing was ever personal, of course. And, as you'll no doubt, agree, any attempt to convince you personally would have been a lost cause from the start.. lol All the best to you.
PanWayOut 2 years ago
False, anyone can convince me of anything if they can provide the evidence and the arguments.
irishmauddib 2 years ago
Unfortunately, the "abortion is a right" crowd tends to have very little understanding of the US Constitution or its significance to the whole concept of human rights in America. Foreigners are especially confused, which is understandable.
PanWayOut 2 years ago
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So let me clarify and background a few basics about our Constitution :
- It is carved in stone. Not only is it not customizable on the fly, the process for amending it was deliberately made tough - very tough.
- The USA works by virtue of its Constitution. Throughout history, and on any given day, it is the framework, the plan by which the US functions as a government.
PanWayOut 2 years ago
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- The Constitution was founded and formed by Christian values universally expressed to accommodate all.
Meaning, the human minds who create the Constitution were, by their Christian experience, aware of the fact that human life is inherently and eternally precious. The Constitution is an expression of that awareness. Period.
PanWayOut 2 years ago
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- The constitution's respect for divine law and for divine values are the source of its power to guarantee human rights and human value.
Knock out that respect and America will drop like a jet sheared of its wings.
PanWayOut 2 years ago
Bad comments. You start saying what the constitution IS, then move to what YOU think the people who wrote it think. You then say they must have thought X (in your opinion) so X is therefore implied. No way.. No how.. Not thanks.
We go by what is in it, now by what you think should be. Just being christian infers NONE of what you said. Theres over 33k branches of Christianity and some of them believe in death. You operate on a presumption that YOUR interpretation of Christianity is right
irishmauddib 2 years ago
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Tiller the killer is no more, you reap what you sow.
Im not happy this happened to an assassin of children, wait I guess I am.
bazucomen79 2 years ago
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To say that America's Founding Fathers did not intend to guarantee "abortion rights" understates the case by light years. They would have reacted even to the suggestion of such rights with an overwhelming disgust.
PanWayOut 2 years ago
Appeal to authority. I rather talk about the law now, the people now, the facts now, the arguments now.
If you want to go off imagining what dead people in the past would have said then thats fine with me, but dont expect me to discuss it with you. My interest is in the people of today and what THEY vote and have legal.
And like I said abortion is legal now so get over it. Campaign and vote if you want that changed, just like I campaign and vote to have it reduced to 12 weeks not 24
irishmauddib 2 years ago 7
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irishmauddib wrote:
"Calling it murder does not make it so. He acted within the law while his killer did not."
Ah, then I have a couple of questions:
At one time in India, the practice of Sati was perfectly legal. Does this mean Sati was not yet murder?
And when the British passed their laws against Sati, weren't they simply imposing their own Christian values on a non-Christian country?
PanWayOut 2 years ago
Replying to me in new comments again I see. Very brave.
As I said before, in these cases where people have seen wrong them campaigned to make it wrong. As I said if you think abortion is also wrong in this fashion then get out and have it declared so. I will see you down the voting booth.
But simply comparing the two doesnt mean that one is automatically wrong because the other is. Youll get nowhere with that. Go campaign and vote. Ill do the same.
Until then, its legal, so get over it.
irishmauddib 2 years ago
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Um, this is an answer...? Setting aside its lack if stand-alone logic (-trying to gauge how much time/money a commenter has spent getting xxx elected/passed is a pretty looney way to try to end a political debate in which both sides are posting for public view, lol), your reply doesn't remotely answer my rather simple and obviously relevant questions.
PanWayOut 2 years ago
I stand by my answer. We decide together what is right and wrong, democratically. IF you think abortion is wrong then get out and campaign and vote. I will see you in the voting booths.
Right now its legal, so get over it.
irishmauddib 2 years ago 3
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irishmauddib wrote:
"We decide together what is right and wrong, democratically."
Actually, no, this is utterly false.
My own country, the USA, is not a pure democracy by any stretch. America is a constitutional democracy, a republic. And one extremely important component of America's constitution is the protection it guarantees the individual or the minority against any arbitrary will of the majority.
PanWayOut 2 years ago
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Our founders, the architects of the US constitution, tried to create a government based on certain self-evident, universal values and principles. They believed that the value of any majority's will should always take a back seat to the values built into life itself.
PanWayOut 2 years ago
Yea, with us subjectively interpretating what those "built in" values are, which in essence leaves you back with us deciding together what is right or wrong. Sitting there claiming that your view is the correct built in one is just white noise.
irishmauddib 2 years ago 4
It is still a democratic system where we change what we think we need to change. If you dont like the law or the system then either change it or leave it.
In the mean time, I say again, get over it.
irishmauddib 2 years ago 2
irishmauddib wrote:
"Yea, with us subjectively interpretating what those "built in" values..."
No, subjectivity is exactly what America's founders warned against, tried to constitutionally immunize their country against.
Whether anybody likes it or not, the US constitution was written to support God-given values -- i.e. human rights "endowed by our Creator". This is simply historical fact and it is not honestly arguable.
PanWayOut 2 years ago
Change of subject, I said nothing about god. Just because they warned against something doesnt mean its not still there. So I stand by what I said. Even if theres "built in" objective values, which I see no reason to believe, our attempt to figure them out is just as subjective.
If you want to talk god and objectivity, it is the same issue as interpretations of things like the bible are subjective too and no one agrees on them. Hence over 32000 different branches of christianity.
irishmauddib 2 years ago
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Amen, Fr. Philip Mullen! Thank God for St. Scott Roeder & Tiller's just execution! :)
The Battle Hymn of the Republic Applies!
A Second Reformation & A Christian American Revolution....to the Glory of God!
USAsoldier1955 2 years ago
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Fr. Philip Mullen,
Amen, Thank God for Tiller's just execution & St. Scott Roeder! :)
We need a Second Reformation & Christian American Revolution!
Thanks for your 40 years of Pro-Life work in the priesthood: illuminating the ignorant, saving the lost, and helping mothers & babies!
God Bless You! We Love You!
USAsoldier1955 2 years ago
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frphilipmullen
It's not a case of me agreeing - I've always BELIEVED it to be true. Always.
The Catholic Church has NEVER interpreted EVERY part of the Bible literally. NEVER.
I go by the De fide Dogmas of the Catholic Church, not by fundamentalist opinions and interpretations.
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
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frphilipmullen
The Church teaches that God created the universe - and that He continues to sustain it with the same power with which He put into it in the beginning - and that what God has created is good.
There is no De fide Dogma which says that the universe was created all at once. Not one. In fact, the Church leans toward the hypothesis that the universe is still expanding - in other words - creation began at one point and has never stopped since - nor ever will..
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
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frphilipmullen
To absolutely correct, the Catholic Church has not one De fide Dogma on the subject. Not one.
Interpreting the entire Bible to be read literally in every sense has never been the teaching of the Catholic Church. The correct interpretation is left to the Magisterium alone, who then guides the flock accordingly. It's called Tradition.
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
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frphilipmullen
The Catholic Church does not teach that the world was created in just a few thousand years.
Read the Catechism.
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
frphilipmullen
You don't need another David - you already have Jesus Christ. True God and True Man.
Don't you trust Him? He knows what He is doing - and that doesn't include another revolution to be sure.
Put your trust in the wisdom and power of God to sort this regrettable situation out.
And above all - PRAY!
He is coming - sooner than you think - and in ways that you don't expect.
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
"Put your trust in the wisdom and power of God"
I would but since there is no evidence here that he exists Im not about to.
irishmauddib 2 years ago
"And above all - PRAY!"
Yes do that! While you are on your knees talking to yourself, we will be out campaigning the electoral public.
irishmauddib 2 years ago
irshman
The total internal-nuclear and nuclear binding force within and between the hadrons which form the molecules of just 17 grains of sand, is equivalent to all the chemical energy of all the barrels of oil - One Trillion - that we've ever burnt.
That is- 6,117 exajoules.
Now where do you think all that energy came from - and how it has come to be in this form?
Courtesy of a leprechaun working at the bottom of the garden perhaps?
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
Playing god of the gaps again are you? I am asking for positive evidence for a god, not you saying "We do not understand X so therefore god must have done it".
Come back to me when you get positive evidence and gods of the gap is not your only card to play.
irishmauddib 2 years ago
Explain to me too irishman - the cause of gravitational effect.
The very force which holds you to the ground.
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
Irrelevant and off topic. Gravity has many explanations but even if it didnt then you would still be playing god of the gaps.
You are asking random questions in order to cloud the fact you still have no answered either of the two i have now asked you.
irishmauddib 2 years ago
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irishman
You're like a doubting Thomas.
But no problems - you'll have your proof of God soon enough. In ways that will amaze you.
Life begins at the moment of conception. You were once a human being in the zygote stage of development.
We all were.
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
So what you are saying here then is you HAVE no evidence for a god? Thanks, thats all you had to say!
Back to contradicting yourself I see. First you said we were human from the moment of conception then you said the zygote BECOMES human. Make up your mind.
irishmauddib 2 years ago 3
irishman
I said a nose hair does not divide and grow to become a complete human being.
A zygote is a Human Being - a Human Being from the moment of conception - with a complete set of chromosomes. And a complete program for continued growth and development.
Evidence for God? It's all around you. Just take a closer look.
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
I know what you said, then you said the zygote BECOMES a human, totally contradicting yourself. You also have not answered what make it human. Since many cells can divide and grow. What makes it have rights that a plant or a cow do not? What definition of "human" are you using. You have avoided that question now more times than I have fingers to count it.
IF the evidence for god is all around me, why are you totally unable to give me any of it?
irishmauddib 2 years ago 2
ishishman
You're simply playing a game of words.
I've stated below quite clearly when a Human Being becomes a Human Being.
I'll make it totally clear for you - a Human Being comes into being when a human sperm and a human ovum fuse.
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
But why. Just saying it doesnt make it so. What definition are you working with. This is the question I have asked more times than I have fingers and you just wont answer it.
Just SAYING that it becomes human at that time doesnt make it true. Why does it. Whats your definitions
irishmauddib 2 years ago 3
It doesn't, twinning can occur for days after conception. Are you belittling identical twins? Are they not singular human beings?
If your answer is yes then humanity does not begin at conception, having a human genetic code does. However, a human genetic cose does not make you human, conscious thought, self awareness etc, these are the things that make you human.
21stCenturyPala 2 years ago 4
Guess he isnt and cant answer your questions either huh?
irishmauddib 2 years ago 6
irishman
You said: "What makes it have rights that a plant or a cow do not?"
Well, if you do not regard your fellow human beings as being any different to a plant.....or a cow for that matter.............
Need I say any more?
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
Not what I said and you know it.
irishmauddib 2 years ago 3
"Need I say any more?"
No,this last twist of my words has finally eroded all credibility you had in my eyes. Frankly you have evaded my questions for too long and im bored with it. Youve twisted my words, insulted me, made up lies about me and contradicted even yourself at every turn. Ive nothing more to say to someone of this level of honesty and intelligence. Ive nothing to learn from you.
irishmauddib 2 years ago 5
irishmauddib
You say I've nothing to learn from you"??
You - who asks questions but refuses to hear the answers - because they do not tickle your pro-abort fancy.
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
AGain, your lies, insults, twisting of my words and avoiding of my questions has gone too far. Ive nothing left to say to you and nothing left to learn from you.
irishmauddib 2 years ago 7
'Courtesy of a leprechaun working at the bottom of the garden perhaps? ' - How is that any more ridiculous than the idea of god?
21stCenturyPala 2 years ago 4
This fight only seems to get tougher. I have gotten hateful messages because of the videoes I share on my channel and the comments I leave on them. I wish Tiller would have been put in jail for his crimes, but murdering him was not the answer.
kellyjustus 2 years ago
kellyjustus
Murder of anyone born or unborn cannot be justified. Agree that Tiller should have been jailed.
Re the hateful comments, don't worry about them. It's par for the course for pro-lifers.
It has never put me off standing up for the rights of unborn children - and it never will.
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
"rights of unborn children"
You claim to stand for these rights and yet wont answer even the one question I have asked you over and over on the topic.
irishmauddib 2 years ago
Father how many little boys have you touched today?
AAL 2 years ago 3
A "self-evident truth" is not debatable. There are no other options. It is true simply because it is true. That is the way it is. The fact that the universe was created by a Master Designer is a "self-evident truth." The human mind is compelled to conclude that there is a creator, a First Cause. That thought is a "self-evident truth."
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
Calling something a self evident truth does not make it so. I could claim any weird thing I made up is "self evident" this does not make it so. If you have no evidence for a god then you have no evidence for a god. You can not define it into existance.
irishmauddib 2 years ago 2
The universe is infinite therefore, no matter how small those numbers are there is a 100% chance that they will happen by conventional mathematics. Rarely yes, but they will.
I suppose you believe that evolution is a liethat the universe is 4000 years old and the earth is the centre of it :)
21stCenturyPala 2 years ago 2
21stCenturyPala
Both the creationist idea and Darwinism, that is, unassisted evolution - are both incorrect.
Evolution is a reality - but it is assisted evolution. Man however is another story.
The universe is at least 8 billion years old, but probably much older - as much as 100 billion years.
The universe is not infinite either in spatial volume, nor of the quantity of material in it. Both spatial volume and the quantity of material in it are increasing exponentially.
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
Assisted by what? Another entity? What evidence have you got for said entity?
irishmauddib 2 years ago
So religious theory regarding teh earth is changable depending on how well it can defend itself against science?
Evolution has tonnes of evidence to support it, creationism has the book of genesis which is at best metaphorical. And you may well say ,like many do, that picking teh bible apart is too easy.
If it the incarnate truth of teh universe then it shouldn't be that easy.
21stCenturyPala 2 years ago
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21stCenturyPala
I've never subscribed to the creationist theory - and the Catholic Church does not either. It does not teach that the world was created in just a few thousand years.
Nor do I subscribe to Darwinism - or unassisted evolution.. I regard it as a ridiculous nonsense.
As ridiculous as the notion that slaughtering innocent babes in their own mother's womb is somehow OK.
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
It did, before science proved otherwise. Likewise it took til the early 90s for the Vatican to openly admit the earth was not teh centre of the universe.
21stCenturyPala 2 years ago
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Evolution is assisted - not unassisted.
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
By what evidence do you come to this opinion?
21stCenturyPala 2 years ago 2
Dr. Harold Morowitz, professor of Molecular Chemistry at Yale University, has concluded that the odds of life creating itself by chance are one in 10 followed by one billion zeroes! Lastly, Edward Conklin, a biologist, has stated that, "The probability of life originating from accident (or chance) is comparable to the probability of an unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion in a print shop." In other words, the universe originating by chance has NO CHANCE!
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
Again the same problem, subjective guess work. You can not work out the probability of something happening without first knowing how it happened.
irishmauddib 2 years ago 4
Waiting now for your explanation of how someone can calculate the odds for something without knowing how that something happened. I am AGOG to hear your explanation for that one.
irishmauddib 2 years ago 4
Mike Stubbs has calculated the chance of insulin, an important protein hormone secreted by the pancreas, developing by chance at 3x10 to the power of 158. He states that even if there was a machine which could sort the amino acids that make up insulin into groups of 512 at a rate of one billion per second, it would take 10 to the power of 52 years to produce 10 to the power of 68 combinations, only one of which would be insulin.
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
Same problem, you are citing subjective guess work here. And also just because something is improbable does not mean it did not happen that way either. Nothing you are saying here is a proof for god, all it is is a proof that we dont know what caused it all yet.
irishmauddib 2 years ago 4
Some scientists have measured the chance of a replicating (defined as a repetition of an experiment under controlled conditions so that a specific result may be observed) molecule occurring by chance at 10 to the power of 450.
Prof. Frank Salisbury has calculated the probability of a typical DNA chain arising by chance to be 10 to the power of 600. (DNA is the basic building block of life, and it has a zero probability of occurring by chance).
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
Again these calculations are subjective as we do not have all the data. We do not know how the first relicating entity began. How can you work out the probability of something happening without knowing how it happened? You cant, therefore these calculations are also impossibly subjective. Guess work.
irishmauddib 2 years ago 4
Sir Fred Hoyle, one of the leading scientists of this age, has computed the number of chances necessary for even the simplest life imaginable to have evolved by chance to be one chance in 10 to the power of 40,000. (That is roughly comparable to the probability of rolling double sixes, 12 on two dice, 50,000 times in a row!).
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
Appeal to authority here. These calculations tell us nothing at all. We do not have all the data and so such a probability is subjective at best and a canard at worst.
irishmauddib 2 years ago 3
The Universe was created by something larger than itself since the First Law of Thermodynamics says that energy cannot be created; only changed from one form into another. The universe therefore had to be created by something outside itself, because of the same law.
Now, in Probability Mathematics, any chance with less than one chance in 10 followed by 110 zeroes has no chance, so keeping that in mind take a look at the following calculations:
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
Frankfly we just do not know why the universe took on its current for nor where the singularity it has formed from came from, or even if the concept of a beginning and an end even means anything in this context.
However just because it is complicated and we do not know where it came from does not suddenly mean "god did it".
irishmauddib 2 years ago 3
Often in the abortion debate, the subject of God is brought up by those who are pro-abortion. Many of these people claim that there is no substance for belief in God, therefore related moral stances have no relevance.
I disagree that there is no substance for belief in God. Here are just a few of the scientific reasons:
Merlin2Stage2Speed 2 years ago
Well you were the first one to bring up gods, not me. I thought, despite your insults and hate, that we at least were keeping the conversation in the real world. Sorry to see youve gone down the fantasy road now on top of everything else.
irishmauddib 2 years ago