EEVblog #241 - Circuit Labs PCBs from New Zealand

[fingerboy18]

Dave; did you put the platypus into a font file or did you use a script? Awesome!

[EEVblog]

@fingerboy18 It's a script in Altium that converts a bitmap image into a tracks.

[fingerboy18]

@EEVblog It looks very crisp! I've tried to do the same, but I got rough edges. Maybe a bit of experimentation will do me good.

[fingerboy18]

To get a single PCB with slots costs $100+ here in the USA. I'm sick of having to resort to china.

[BarriosGroupie]

Each PCB house should give you the spec for design for manufacture.

[sok8888]

It is obvious the comparison is bias, as pcbzone gave a $300 worth of value to make those red coated and silver soldered board but charged $90. Whereas, uCurrent gave what you pay for i.e. $80 job.

[mageepaddy]

I think you're mad changing from PCB cart for production boards. You say 60-70% isn't a big difference in price, I think you're really trying to justify your desire to keep things local.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for buying local and China sourced stuff has it's issues. PCB Cart however are as good as any out there for lead times & service - better than any of the UK/German outfits I previously used.

You can take that 60-70% cost saving $ and spend it in your home town.

[nomione1]

@mageepaddy : New Zealand is a second home for Australians !! Lol

[linagee]

If the board is inside a plastic container and I can pocket the $15 difference on 10,000 boards, I'm going to take the one with the shady wavy text. :-)

Prototype done with the nice text is good, but then you don't have a realistic prototype. But you might want the prototype faster and not wait for China. A lot of tradeoffs. Maybe the best is to pay China for a prototype, but just pay more for shipping and get it via airmail. (Not sure how much that would increase the price.)

[yanava]

Dave, it's pretty clear to me you're kind of nitpicking here. The only thing I would diss about any of the boards would be the via misalignment on the New Zealand board. I've seen much worse from borard manufacturers here in Brazil. Do they send you boards for free when they screw up?

[EEVblog]

@yanava Yes, I am nit picking, and said as such I believe. There is nothing wrong with either board. I prefer the silkscreen on the NZ board.

[antoniopetito]

I have a question out of curiosity about the PCB's and just PCB's in general and I want not to sure if you have covered this before. Why is majority of the under side of the PCB not all etched away? Is it due to a common ground for most of the circuitry or shielding from stray and unwanted noise that may cause parts of the circuit to go haywire. I do notice this on many bords other than yours where they only etch around the track and that's it. Why may I ask? Regards Antonio

[EEVblog]

@antoniopetito many answers to this questions. Basically, because it's good practice, for both noise and in this case voltage drop reasons on the return ground path. Plus it's simply easier on the layout too, no need for tracks, just flood fill it all.

[antoniopetito]

@EEVblog Thank you for your reply Dave. I do suppose if you think of it that way it makes a lot of sense and I just figured Id ask to rid of this curiosity so next time I get up to the PCB design stage of my projects I'll take this into consideration. Iv read it somewhere once before I think it was in the Silicon Chip Mag and they said "it's like art work". And another thing, what helped you the most in regards of reading and understanding MCU language? Thanks again, Regards Antonio

[EEVblog]

@antoniopetito Ironically, that Silicon Chip article you refer too is in fact my 3 part PCB Design tutorial that was published in there!

[Inspironator]

The quality differences justify the New Zealand boards for your production runs. Insofar as prototyping is concerned, yes, Chinese shipping delays are a killer. Considering trade defecits, New Zealand puts the final nail in the Chinese PCB production coffin. Good review, thanks!

[jpelczar]

2 layer PCB manufacturers are quite easy to find. What about more than 2 layers ?

[Psychlist1972]

I have that type of through hole treatment on a board that was made in Germany. It is sooo much nicer than hot air leveled stuff. It really takes the solder too.

[LocoLibreisI]

go New Zealand go Platypus go Dave

[dmjita]

Dave do you know where i can do board like this in europe? i live in italy

[EEVblog]

@dmjita Sorry, No idea. Maybe ask in an Arduino forum, they get all their boards made in Italy.

[MinecraftTechnic]

@EEVblog Arduino has its own factory



[EEVblog]

@MinecraftTechnic For the assembly, yes, but surely not for the blank PCB manufacture??

[adamlumpkins2000]

@EEVblog Dave that was $90 for all four are just for one??

[EEVblog]

@adamlumpkins2000 Usually that would be the one-off price, plus a spare board they'll likely give you. I got these for free as a trial. And the protos are normally green, not red, that was special for me :-D

[stephenkarg]

@dmjita I have used PCB-pool Beta Layout several times and sometimes they ship from Ireland and sometimes from Germany. Their pricing is good for prototypes, delivery time is good, they offer a free laser cut stencil for surface mount parts, and for small boards they give you extra boards for no additional cost. They also work with your circuit design in the native layout file format (many design products are supported) or with Gerber layers and drills. You can also watch your PCB being made.

[dmjita]

@stephenkarg thank you

[DFCad1]

quite a palpable bias against the chinese products.

did you say that the ucurrent boards would be first 2.5 times more expensive and then 60-70% on top of that to get them from NZ instead of pcbcart? a total of 4 times more expensive?

is that in volume of 1000?

so what is the before and after cost per board? 1$ vs 4?

[EEVblog]

@DFCad1 The price difference depends on whether it's lose board, or a panel. CircuitLabs charge the same for both. PCBcart charge differently. For the loose board Circuit Labs is about 3 times the price or something like that, but for the panel it's only a 60-70% price difference. Could very likely get the panel cheaper from another Chinese supplier if desired.

[deathventure]

Been getting boards from Silver Circuits lately. They are based in Malaysia, so far, they've been showing superior quality in comparison to stuff I've outsourced to China. There was a batch of boards that was set for 2oz copper, and they sent us something in the manner of like 1.5oz, but they fixed the problem immediately. Unless the US actually gets something at a decent price, we'll be sticking with outsourcing. There's no reason for a small board to cost 20x more here.

[SomeGuyInSandy]

Please forgive my asking if it has already been asked and answered, but with all the work you are going to with this project, are you planning to make this available for purchase - or (preferably) in kit form?

[EEVblog]

@SomeGuyInSandy yes, it will be a kit.

[SomeGuyInSandy]

@EEVblog Very good then! It's been fun watching you take this from concept to hardware so far. I'll keep my iron warm :)

[Nibsvideos]

@EEVblog Does pbczone ship to the US?

[onjoFilms]

Excellent. Learned a lot. Thanks bunches.

[H2O2FromH20]

I have had good success with ITead Studios, My shipping time to the USA, Oregon, Worst 23 Days And Best 17 Days. Dave may have Got his board delayed by China's last holiday it was in late January.

[EEVblog]

@H2O2FromH20 No, this was back in Dec.

[daafies2]

lol. "stop it"



[kildas]

Just a question. Can I download some kind of evaluation / educational version of altrium designer? I would so like to make schematics and pcb boards like yours, and for example eagle software is noware near altium.

[kevtris]

the green board uses a true silk screen, but the red board appears to be some kind of dry film process.

[ondraster]

May I ask, what kind of shipping method did you chose at iteadstudio? I just ordered from iTeadStudio today few boards, total price of $150 (!!), where $33 was shipping by DHL (I need it delivered fast - China has just had almost 2 weeks of holiday - their post is most likely flooded). The thing is, I live in middle Europe and all local stuff is 10 - 20 times (in low volumes - I need all boards 10 times max) more expensive.

[catatonicprime]

ha ha ha, "Yes that is a platypus, why? Why not!?" awesome.

[SigEpBlue]

Totally diggin' that red. B) Thanks for that lower-angle shot of the silver plating. Wow, that looks killer!

+100000 internets to Dave for using a semi-local PCB house. I HATE chinese junk!

[LukeeeeBennettPlus]

Dave, I wanna help you design some awesome t-shirts. Just saying. ;)

[EEVblog]

@LukeeeeBennettPlus What do you have in mind?

[LukeeeeBennettPlus]

@EEVblog Hmm, nothing in particular but I can throw around some ideas in my box if you want? ^^

[ElektroHut]

Gold plating would probably be better if you are going to sell these because gold has a much better shelf life.

[LurkePus]

Hi Dave i'm new to electronic design just started about a year ago and everything i have learnt up to now is from  reading and waching channels like yours . I'm using itead and they are the reason why i can afford to play around with gEDA and make a pcb out of it.

what i got out of this video was basicaly that itead boards don't have the best slikscreen and stuff,. what about doing things like a side by side comparison soldering components to the boards like silver vs hasl .

[timb1986]

Hey Dave. Why do you have a duck billed platypus on the PCBs?

[EEVblog]

@timb1986 It's just a regular Platypus :->

[Microman171]

I loved the Platypus..! "Why? Why not!"

[YeOldeSpellbooke]

Nice as always Dave! Im about to prototyp a board soon for the first time.

Im keeping it local ;)

[GeorgeGraves]

platypus? Hmmmm.  I smell an inside joke somewhere! ;)

[TheEPROM9]

Yey manufacturing retreating from China! =-D

[BulletMagnet83]

@TheEPROM9 We all need to start taking ownership of our own production again, even if it ends the "throwaway" culture and costs more - No matter what country we're from, it's a BAD idea for any other country to have us by the short-and-curlies when it comes to electronics manufacture.

[deathventure]

@BulletMagnet83 The throwaway culture ends up costing more anyways. Between the garbage left behind when you do throw it away, and the number of times you have to get a new item, the money saved can be put into a higher quality product. Agreed about other countries having use cornered as far as manufacturing is concerned. Too much BS in all of it though. Manufacturers just don't want to change the profit margin that they get by doing it overseas.

[envisionelec]

I've been using MyroPCB for 10 years. I think I've had a total of 6 bad boards (shorts) out of thousands. None were electrically tested. They do assembly - and it's very good quality. Also, shipping times are 3 Days to the US. I can get 2 Day turn and have boards the same week.

[guruflorida]

PCBCart quality sucks. They tried 4 times to get my board right and failed, I gave up. I stuck well within tolerances using the Altium rules. They couldnt get the layer registration right - on through holes, solder mask, silkscreen over pads - junk. Seems like any pcb house should have registration down to a science. I used goldphoenix next. First batch perfect! Second batch bad...Looks like I am going local too. Sunshine Circuits (USA) did some boards for me, all perfect, but more expensive too

[EEVblog]

@guruflorida Occasionally I hear stories like that, but I've nothing decent quality from PCBcart.

[patrickdonovan7]

Is outsourcing to China as big a problem in your woods, as it is on America?

[EEVblog]

@patrickdonovan7 Yep, I can't even get a production bare PCB manufactured in Australia. Hence why I'm using New Zealand, which is close enough :->

[googacct]

What were you using to do the zoom and focus when both hands were holding the pcb in the close up shots?

[EEVblog]

@googacct There was one shot where I used the video editor to do the zoom, other than that I need one hand free. Getting an external zoom controller soon.

[zega74]

@EEVblog

How bout getting some USB microscope ca. 100-400x magnification and DIY LED light (few W instead of these 5mm ones that comes with the microscope)?

[ssj3gohan456]

I order a lot from iteadstudio/seeedstudio, but only the smaller sizes (5x5, 5x10cm). Any larger than that and they quickly become at least as expensive as the competition. I mean, $85 to get the big boards done, that's just as much as local.

However, except for the silkscreen I am usually surprised as to what they manage to produce for such a low price. I even got 0.8mm boards for the same price as 1.6mm, which is absolutely wonderful for heat dissipation through the board.

[dancraggs]

I'd have called that uCurrent orange instead of red, to be honest. But wow, the quality difference when you buy from a company that takes pride in their work is outstanding.

[AnnoyingVerification]

Nice advertorial :) Pretty bad breakout tabs from the kiwi's, wouldn't have been too hard to turn these into real breakouts. And +1 for the other silver comments, it is terrible stuff. Every bit of exposed plating (like topside annular rings) will look disguisting after a couple of weeks. Funny praise on the soldermask colouring, but don't count on it being always the same.

[44209david]

Nice !, Yip i get 80% of my PCB boards from PCB Labs, and the other 20% from china,

and yes of course different customers that can wait,and cost does matter

but as a Kiwi myself it does feel better to know that its been made locally .

[samgab]

lol @ "please excuse the crudity of..." BTTF partial quote.

[samgab]

Yeah, go New Zealand made!

[MetalPhreakAU]

Here's a tip for Itead/Seeed Studios in regards to the numbering they put on. It's actually done by their outsourced board house not them directly, so they can't do anything about it even if you request it. Now, if you have to have it somewhere, you don't want it on your front panel side. They *ALWAYS* put the code on the top layer silkscreen. If you flip/mirror your board gerbers so the bottom is now the top, you don't get the code on the front!

[crenn6977]

@MetalPhreakAU Nice tip!

[snik2pl]

HAL is better if PCB will wait for soldering for more than 2-3 weeks. Chemical solder will be difficult to solder after some time. So for DIY I would recomend hot air leveling. Silkscreen from china looks thicker so it can be more durable then New Zeland. Maybe simple scratch test? I support local manufacture, it helps economy.

[EEVblog]

@snik2pl Good point, worthy of a scratch test.

[narcoti]

@EEVblog I have to buy new soldering irons for the boards that I ordered from one of the china places. Their solder was some kind of extremely hard to melt solder. Can you recommend a good soldering iron that wont break my bank?

[heyhey1385]

Hows the Quad coming along :)

[Zwank36]

silver +1 Will even stave off bacteria.... When you eat off them :P

Very clean PCB's from NZ, thumbs up.

[crenn6977]

I was thinking of prototyping a new board I'm designing (still a month away from finalising the first design) with ITEAD, I'm now reconsidering because of the quality and delivery differences, still means I'd pay more, but for that bit extra, looks like it's definitely worth going with the Circuit Labs service.

[TerminalJack505]

Those kiwis do nice work.

Here's a nice addition for your new lab: A USB camera for you microscope. (If you have a trinocular port.) It would come in handy for shooting videos like this.

[EEVblog]

@TerminalJack505 Yes, I know. I'd prefer to have a compact camera adapter though, so I don't have to use a computer to record.

[AgentDexter47]

When did you order the china board? it might be because of their new year witch was two weeks ago (really big deal to them, some companies in china stop working 5-6 weeks to celebrate)

I ordered some stuff from china 15 days ago and they shipped it yesterday

but trough rest of the year I really can't complain

[EEVblog]

@AgentDexter47 No, it was in Dec.

[zzzzbest]

Was the 5 week lead time because of Christmas? Although even for Christmas 5 weeks is still pretty damn slow

[xasdrubalex]

@zzzzbest thought in europe despite what's going on in china/HK custom put delay to all packages from there, dunno if is the same in australia.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Silver doesn't look so nice after the PCB has been on the shelf for a while - give the boards a coat of flux if you're not going to use them for a while. Also avoid touchinig the exposed silver as fingermarks can tarnish quickly.

[EEVblog]

@mikeselectricstuff Yes, definitely not the best stuff for long term storage.

[Bertjeorge]

New Video! YAY! I absolutely love your videos, really really qualitative!