Is Science the answer? A Comparison of Atheism and Islam ( 2 of 4 )

[ahmrou82]

shabir ally is good even when it coming to science.

[DannyTheSeeker]

Being atheist meant to be have no rules. What happen if no one believe that god exist? can you imagine?

Till today, atheist can not proof that god doesn't exist. even science pundamental of atheist in the old age, is breaked down by today science.

[prototype00000]

athiests are far more into fairy tales then any muslim. the quran has many signs that nothing else on earth has had from 1400 years ago. ahtiests believe ANYTHING can happen, tomorrow green aliens could kidnap them, or a meator could hit earth, gravity could fail and the earth just falls until it hits the bottom of the universe where it smashes, the possibilites are endless even though they claim they are the most rational. its not rational to believe everything is a fluke, thats far fetched

[r10bajjio10]

@rooflee: Allah sends down water from the sky with which He revives the earth after its death. There is indeed a sign in that for a people who listen.

Allah sent down water from the heavens and revived the land with it after it was dead. Surely, in that there is a sign for a people who listen.

And Allah has sent down rain from the sky and given life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who listen.

[r10bajjio10]

To Him will be your return of all of you. The promise of Allah is true and sure. It is He Who beginneth the process of Creation and repeateth it that He may reward with justice those who believe and work righteousness but those who reject Him will have nothing but draughts of boiling fluids and a Penalty grievous: because they did reject Him. 10: 4

[r10bajjio10]

@rooflee: Allah's mercy subsumes all things

In the life of this world, Allah's mercy subsumes every human being either he is a believer or disbeliever. Allah bestows the disbelievers as well as the believers by the brain, heart, eyes, hearing, hands, feet etc. But, in the hereafter, Allah's mercy is only for those who believe in Him, in the Angels, in the Scriptures (including the Quran), in the Messengers (including Muhammad) and in the Day of Judgment.

[r10bajjio10]

@rooflee: I am 100% sure that you have no knowledge about islam! I am 100% sure that allah excists!!! I am 100% sure that I will die soon or later!!! Every soul shall taste death!!! There is no god but Allah!!! Truth stands out clear from error! 

[rooflee]

@r10bajjio10 You are right my friend, we must all face death in the end. Heaven and hell exist here and now. They are not places that we go to when we die. We must live out our "ever after" in this life, not look forward to it's ending. I wish you peace and the courage to see with a TRULY open heart and mind.

[DutchNordic]

Does this nonsense actually make sense to some people?

[greeny202a]

@DutchNordic I dont think it does they are just robots.

[saidia4ever]

hi

I don't understand some lei even they knew the truth, but they still lei ! its shame, alham Lillah We muslims don't have right to lei, well by the way i read a comment say that " God " comes from the word "Good" well if you know Islam we don't say God, But Allah, and if you want to know its meanings i advice you to look fro it, you will be sucked hard. thank you for asking about Islam beautefull queastions like that. and for any qeustion i am here. peace to you brothers and sisters, salam.

[RachZi]

Islam, the fastest-growing religion in the United States... ---- Ari L. Goldman, Mainstream Islam Rapidly Embraced By Black Americans, New York Times, Late City Final Edition, February 21, 1989, p. 1

Moslems are the worlds fastest-growing group... (The Population Reference Bureau, USA Today). ---- Timothy Kenny, Elsewhere in the World, USA Today, Final Edition, News Section, February 17, 1989, p. 4A

[r10bajjio10]

islam is the best way of life to follow! read islamic religion before you quote or hate islam. you are ignorant about islam.

[rooflee]

@r10bajjio10 I don't doubt your sincerity, but did you know that there is actually no evidence at all for the existence of Allah or any other god? None at all my friend. I hope you can find the path to enlightnement, it is not an easy road :)

[Mumija101]

@rooflee And you feel that you are enlightened do you? Did you know that there is no evidence at all that proves that God does not exist? Did you watch the video or are you just out to argue on youtube because you have nothing better to do? To prove a negative is extremly difficult as you must leave no stone unturned to substantiate your claim. On the other hand a case for the existence of God can be established through circumstantial evidence. Notice that I did not say proven Peace be with you

[rooflee]

@Mumija101 Did you know there is also no evidence that god is not a giant unicorn? Indeed it is impossible to prove a negative.... so then is it fair to assume that god is a unicorn?

[Mumija101]

@rooflee Those that believe in Holy Scripture have plenty of evidence that explicitly proclaim the nature of God therefore your argument is easily proven false. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only! Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him. (Quran 112:1-4) Besides i said that its difficult not immpsible. Peace be with you

[rooflee]

@Mumija101 "Those that believe in Holy Scripture have plenty of evidence that explicitly proclaim the nature of God therefore your argument is easily proven false."

This is not any kind oif argument my friend. Other than the ancient book from which you quote and the masses of other people who are as credulous and fearful as you you have provided no basis for your faith. If you believe simply because you are afraid, then it is not true belief, it is just FEAR. Look into your own human heart.

[Mumija101]

@rooflee I fear God but i do not belive out of fear. I belive in God because i have come to the conclusion that a creator exists. I was an atheist before i embraced Islam. The basis for islam is enough for me. Belife does not require 100% proof a mere suggestion is sufficent. You on the other hand require 100% proof to convince me that God doesn't exist. The burden of proof is with you. Peace be with you

[rooflee]

@Mumija101 No, I have no burden of proof. If you want to believe in god because you find it comforting that's fine. If a man does not believe you when you say, "jumping off a cliff will kill you", would you jump off the cliff to show you were right, or ask him to?

[Mumija101]

@rooflee The Burden of proof is with you I’m sorry to say as you are the one that is arguing that God does not exist. Whether I believe in God because I find it comforting is beside the point. If you don’t have the proof it becomes a matter of belief (or disbelief in your case), hence you argument about the man jumping off a cliff is two fold and can be easily used against your own worldview. Peace be with you

[MovingClouds123]

@rooflee can something come by nothing?

[rooflee]

@MovingClouds123 Can nothing come by something?

[MovingClouds123]

@rooflee so you do object the nonsense that something like the universe with all the complexity can come by nothing?

[rooflee]

@MovingClouds123 I don't think I've ever heard any rational person make that assertion. I only hear it from religious people. Any rational person would say that they just don't know, and that will have to do for now.

[MovingClouds123]

@rooflee any rational person will agree to that even if they do not show it.

[r10bajjio10]

What do you think about homosexuality?

[vtshuz100]

homosexuals are people fool! NORMAL people, except to a non-existent god. allah hates everyone including muslim women, he only loves MUSLIM MEN preferably arab(they are the best of creation) the rest are scum, but its ironic because arabs are the real scum muslim arabs.

[r10bajjio10]

Islam commands the Muslim to be kind and just to non-Muslims because if we do not set an example of virtue, how can we expect others to follow us? The conviction that Is lam is the only Truth and that all divergent ways are false and evil, does not make the pious Muslim an arrogant fanatic. The Holy Quran forbids spying, backbiting and heretic-hunting. Nobody is compelled to accept Islam under Muslim rule by force. The Muslim always stands before God in the utmost humility.

[vtshuz100]

hahaha.

muslims have been following us infidels to progress. look at the arab nations, they were THE LAST to end slavery and will be the last to advance since they still hold on to religion. if you want to learn something, look back in history, whereever religion is praticised beyond personal observation society stagnates.

RELIGION IS A PLAGUE TOWARDS HUMANITY.

PLZ show me ONE religion JUST ONE without bloodshed and misery!

[rexloc]

it was the arabs who freed the jews that were enslaved for hundreds of years

[1TruthExposer]

Secularism and atheism has killed much more people than "religion" ever has. World war 1 and 2, were they religious wars? Of course not. They were secular wars. Over 60 million people died just in world war 2. Has any "religious" war killed that many people?

[r10bajjio10]

Islam is a universal faith open to everyone without distinction of race, nationality, cultural or intellectual attainment, social status, age or sex. Because only God can give His faith to whom He will, the Muslim regards every non-Muslim as a potential Muslim. For this reason, he is commanded to be fair and just even to those non-Muslims who are his confirmed enemies and compassionate to non-Muslims who have never committed any overt, hostile act.

[unarmed1234]

"Islam is a universal faith open to everyone without distinction of race ... sex."

How bout Homosexuals??

[speedtronix]

The word sex means male or female.

The word race means of a cultural background/ country/ civilization.

Homosexuality is a sexual inclination not "a sex" or "a race"

[r10bajjio10]

Today, Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world. Also, since the Qur'an is God's most recent and final word to man, it supercedes all the other works.

[boogoolicious]

the reason why islam is the fastest growing religion in the world is that stupid muslims forced people to convert to their religion or otherwise these muslims will kill them!

[speedtronix]

In America, 20000 people convert to Islamic religion every year on average (75% of them are women) . I can't see how they are afraid to die ??

Can you clarify what you mean.

[1TruthExposer]

thats a silly response. Which Muslim forces Americans to convert? Indonesia has the highest number of Muslims. Throughout history, which Muslim army ever went to Indonesia?

[r10bajjio10]

we know that god excists! Allah created everything that excists everything! there is no god but allah.

[xukun0]

Our Creator has endowed us with intellect to understand and with freedom to choose the right path.

Allah has showed us the right path through his messengers sealed by Mohammad and His Books completed by The Qur'an.

[aliesneo]

So god cannot be observed, nor can he be challenged. well sounds right, except i want to call him Assfaggot from Medina. am i permitted that? you cannot observe him and establish that he is not an assfaggot... so please keep science out of this.

[zmungerz]

peter's rebuttal was very poorly performed with no delivery. no facts just subjective rant (for lack of a better word)

i choose no sides

interesting comments below

[iArsalan]

Secular atrocities:

12 million in Kongo (King Leopold of Belgium)

7 million in Sudan (Britain)

20 million in Russia (Stalin)

15 million in China (Mao's 'Great leap forward')

And lets not forget the USA bombing of Laos/Cambodia targeting civilians almost exclusively every day for over two years.

None of these acts involved even a single utterance of religious sentiment and have out striped every religious massacre.

I wish humans would stop blaming everything but ourselves for what WE do.

[Godcreateddisease]

There is a big difference between a secular dictator becoming evil and between a divisive religious philosophy that enjoins the killing of the "other". Steven Weinberg put it succinctly: With or without religion, good people will alway do good deeds and evil people will do evil deeds, but for good people to do evil deeds it takes religion!!

[iArsalan]

So was it religion that lead Albert Einstein, and otherwise good man, to falsify his data and destroy the career of a fellow scientist when his theory of a finite expanding universe chafed with Einstein's theories?

Than man's career and livelihood was utterly destroyed and he was effectively "excommunicated".

After his theory was proven, Einstein later wrote that was one of the greatest regrets of his life. What religious doctrine lead him to that evil turn?

[blueeagleTFL]

@iArsalan good point bro!

[iArsalan]

Why do atheists care about other people's beliefs. Why are you guys now preaching a new "gospel"?

Why do you care that people die from violence; our species is thriving despite violence. Why do you care if other people are free thinking or not?

Tell me whence your morality derive?

Your biggest problem is that you criticize religious teachings but give no viable alternative to them.

What in science tells people the best way to raise children or if and how people should marry?

[Godcreateddisease]

Good question. Why care?

I rarely argue with Buddhists or Jainists but why pick on you guys? People go around smashing buildings, exploding themselves, demanding cartoonists be killed, killing adulterers, subverting the minds of children by telling them masochistic stories about Hell and the grave... all in the name of superstition.

The effects on society are palpable. No room for rational discourse if a religious person tells you: because God said so. That principle is dangerous.

[iArsalan]

So you accept the frame work of the religious systems, since it is through their moral compass that you judge human behavior, but reject its proposed source.

Well the question still stands, why do you care what people believe? You're arguments are directed only at human behavior. If they behave in a fashion you deem acceptable then will you still be concerned with what beliefs guided them to such behavior?

[Godcreateddisease]

If they behave in a fashion you deem acceptable then will you still be concerned with what beliefs guided them to such behavior?

As long as they keep their religious prejudices out of our way, a secular society is all I wish for. But you know what happens in the real world, unless to tackle them head on, keep them on their toes, those darn dark seeds within their texts will come back to haunt us in some new wacky cult of some description and drive us back to square one!

[iArsalan]

The ancients devised ingenious ways to pass knowledge forward in time so that it would not be lost to the many radical social changes humans undergo. This is illustrated in the fact that the scripture whence the story of Xango is derived is the first example of a binary logic and fractal mathematics ever written and it's over 10k years old. The writing system for the text is binary and every odu(word) is comprised of 4 binary bits.

[Godcreateddisease]

Now, this interesting.

Is this ad hoc or did the ancients clearly explain what they were getting at and what they intended to achieve?

Tell you what, here I'm not being fair, let me check it out first then get back to you.

[iArsalan]

The mathematicians are focused mostly on the math and not on the fullness of the intent. Many of these ancient traditions saw the pursuit to understand the cosmos and humanity's place in it as the highest science.

These fractals were seen as nature in its fundamental state. These ancient cities, still exist in the fractal patterns they were built upon in an effort to be in harmony with the fractal patterns witnessed in surrounding ecology. They also serve as primary education.

[iArsalan]

Finally, to create a new movement you must follow the three cardinal steps:

1) Present a comprehensive moral frame work.

2) Present a 'Prophet'. Someone or some group who enjoin the message and set a compelling example to be followed.

3) The Prophet must sacrifice "self". You are asking people to obliterate their "self" as it exists in accepting the new "way". Thus, you must also be willing to sacrifice yourself for this "way".

A great humanist example of this process would be Socrates.

[Godcreateddisease]

We are far more mature now to need a father-figure prophet. No particular person is right all the time. All you need is rational discourse like what is happening in the secular Western societies now.

Your formula has been tried by Atheists like Stalin and the present day North Korean regimes. What tends to happen is that father figure becomes an object of worship and devout reverence and, there you go, back at square one with a new religion to boot!

[Godcreateddisease]

No alternative to religion? If you want a replacement for the moral system then read up on Secular Humanism and the Golden rule. If you crave the ritual bits then please be warned that not everyone has a "religious tendency like you"

[Godcreateddisease]

Science has no say on how to raise children or how people should marry. Atheists in the West tend to follow Humanistic principles or, if coming from a religious background, pick and choose the usefull texts for tips excluding the superstitious basis for morals! Why?

Because they view religious texts as products oh human thought. If you look hard enough you'll find some traces of good moral instruction. Religioins take their morals from us, not the other way round.

[iArsalan]

In Ifa, Xango is the spirit of thunder and lightning. It is said that he dances among the clouds, beating their high regions with primordial flame which casts bolts toward earth. And all on earth reach up to heaven and he choses which will be struck.

That ancient story describes three recently discovered principles of lightning. It jumps among clouds, plumes of plasma form above the clouds, and as the bolt descends all possible targets send up an arch to close the circuit.

[iArsalan]

If I may now wax philosophical. All modern sciences are derived from embracing religious teachings, albeit teachings from systems outside Christianity, and this makes any attempt to use science to disprove those teachings paradoxical. Just as your attempt to derive morals out of thin air inevitably leads you to study the cannons you seek to reject.

You contention isn't with religion, it's with the Christian state model that is nearly dead. People outside of Europe never had this contention.

[Godcreateddisease]

In fact I am terrified of the proposed Muslim state. I was once a Muslim myself and I know how Islam silences its opponents. I know how an apostate is "dealt with" by the "religion of peace".

I know the defaming and damnation, non believers get and I know Surat Al Haaqah with its masochistic narratives on non believers.

The religion has a twisted and wicked moral core and, unlike Christianity, is arguably unreformable.

[iArsalan]

So then you're admitting that you're biased by your experiences, as we all are; and clearly incapable of divorcing yourself from the emotions of the experience in formulating an accurate calculus.

I endured the horrors of being "Black" in this country and in my youth harbored great disdain for the hypocracy of American society. But I truly began to understand and overcome those emotions once I realized that the problem of racism as an economic device. I'm simply asking you to employ pure logic

[iArsalan]

Furthermore, you failed entirely to address the fact that your modern Secular theories are based almost entirely from the very document you criticize so harshly: the Quran.

[iArsalan]

Furthermore, there are 16(the sacred number) basic odu from which all other odu are formed. The scripture contains 256 verses which are logically compared to yield complex stories and interactions of forces.

This system along with the fractal teaching tools were taught to Europeans by West African sages. In Europe it was dismissed as 'magic' but was eventually used in the creation of the first computer systems.

Look up African Fractals on here and you'll find a great clip explaining this.

[Godcreateddisease]

I'll look it up but please don't let it be another one of those "number 19" three card tricks.

A Jewish journalist once showed me something similar on the Talmud and came up with all sorts of accurated predictions on September 11th and what-have-you!

[iArsalan]

Now that essentially is why these religions are so compelling, they speak to the heart of man which science is unable to penetrate. The reason why people are turning in mass to religion for answers is because we are living in the most secular reality humans have ever lived and yet we are living in the most inhumane times humans have ever endured.

Quite simply, for ever 100 people killed by a religious fanatic, secular governments kill millions more for purely secular objectives.

[Godcreateddisease]

So you're better because you haven't killed as much? Religious people always resort to body counts when rational discourse falls apart!

Well, if you insist, apparently Hitler is a criminal because he killed 6 million jews once. Your God is the most mercifull because he will kill them over and over in Hell for ever and ever!

[iArsalan]

Once again you're missing my point. If leaves grow on a tree then leaves are the result of trees, but if leaves grow on other plants then they aren't exclusive to trees. My point in the only common denominator of these atrocities is the presence of humans. We kill people, not demigods or secularists; people.

And i find it interesting that I, the religious "fanatic", is posing calm rational arguments and being met with impassioned appeals from the secularist "logician".

[Godcreateddisease]

Did AlKhawarizmi derive his Algebra from Islam? Is that what Shabir was trying to say? Or that the man was a genius, who happened to be a Muslim? Big difference there.

[iArsalan]

That wasn't his point but another concept certainly was derived from Islam: Secularism.

The 'father' of western secular thought was Avarroes (Abul Muhammad ibn Rashid). He was not only a polymath but a Muslim scholar and jurist. He derived his theories on the secular and divine aspects of society from the Quranic concept of Nafs (the self) and its various manifestations.

The Quran addresses secular thought and its crucial role in a well functioning mind. But warns that alone it's unbalanced.

[Godcreateddisease]

That is white noise. Why? Muhammad put it in a nutshell:

عن ابن عمر قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم " بعثت بالسيف بين يدي الساعة حتى يعبد الله وحده لا شريك له وجعل رزقي تحت ظل رمحي وجعل الذلة والصغار على من خالف أمري ومن تشبه بقوم فهو منهم"

[Godcreateddisease]

Shabir Ally: Genetic fallacy: explaining the truth or falsity based on the origin of the idea, it doesn't work.

Looooool!!!!!! If that doesn't work, I don't know what does!

[Godcreateddisease]

The Quran does not actually say that we will be expanding the universe, most commentators understood the verse differently except Ibn Katheer who thinks the verb "expand" is actually in the past tense (don't aske me how):

و السماء بنيناها بايد و انا لموسعون: اي لذو سعة بخلقها (الطبري و القرطبي عن ابن عباس)

[Godcreateddisease]

Why is there something rather than nothing? Because "nothingness" can not exist!

[samdahabib]

I can't believe he said the total amount of Energy in the universe is 0. Honestly, I'm tired of hearing that argument. Some people are so fixated on this concept of energy charge to see that (-1) energy charge and (+1) energy charge, does not equal 0 energy. But rather it equals 2 energy.

All energy with a value, contributes to the total amount of energy in the world. A proton does not negate an electron.

[MarcinP2]

The argument was that positive and negative electric charges cancel eachother, and so does matter and antimater.

However the argument falls on its face if you cannot measure the actual ammounts.

Other than ciorcular one: there was no creator, therefore the ammounts must be equal therefore there was no creator...

But that would beg the question.

From what I know currently astronomers think there is unballance - more matter than antimater. Cannot cite a source of the bat, don't beat me.

[Godcreateddisease]

Your kind of reply always comes from those least familiar with science. The zero total energy of the universe is a conclusion that has been independently reached by several cosmologists.

A zero total energy or total charge is an indication of the self-contaiment of a system. It does contain energy, but the overall equality of positive of negative and positive is strong evidence that there energy did not have to come from "outside". Get me?

[iArsalan]

The question is easy to answer.

One of the great rules of all sciences is that all things within the Microcosm exist in the Macrocosm. The Egyptians would say "As above, so below."

In other words if it exists in us it exists in the Universe in some form. All humans have the capacity for emotion and intellect then the Universe has this capacity indeed in a far greater proportion.

And according to the Qur'an, Allah is Existance itself.

Sura Al-Ikhlas (112)

[Godcreateddisease]

Not true. What is true of the part is seldom true of the whole. You are made of trillions of subatomic particles that behave like waves and particles simultaneously. You as a whole don't. You as a whole need a constant flow of oxygen molecules to maintain your structural integrity. Your atoms don't.

The universe contains billions of self fueling energy production units called stars. You, also part of the universe, don't.

Your reasoning was fallacious.

[iArsalan]

That doesn't counter my argument. The oxygen and the atoms in my structure themselves are derived from the greater universe. And these molecules exist in the universe in the same form weather within my body or without.

Whence do my intellect and emotions derive? What are their properties and of which materials within reality are they comprised?

We've come so far in answering the question of physics but we're no closer to these answers than our ancient ancestors.

[Godcreateddisease]

Regarding your last sentence I really suggest you read up on the subject. The ancients used to think thunder was a god, look how we've unravelled the mysteries of the underlying mechanism and made use of it in electronics.

Where do emotions come from? Again read up on the subject please. Do you know that mood altering drugs (e.g antidepressants) toy around with your brain chemistry to give an effect?

I repeat: When various atoms aggreggate the resulting entity is unrecongisably different.

[Godcreateddisease]

One further point, if you are going to come up with any more "but we don't know how this works yet" you better go out there, work your intellect and your lab really hard, then come up with an answer that can be tested for accuracy by everyone, not dependent on religious conviction.

You can't use ignorance to justify superstition.

[solitair1]

As always Shabir Ally makes a good clear point in a respectful way. He is firm, calm and uses logic. I couldn't undestand well the other speaker, the atheist. It could be his accent, that he mves too much or simply that he is talking nonsense.

God is great.

[Godcreateddisease]

Aaaaarghh!

You missed a superb opening statement. Completely demolishes religious pretenses.

[Godcreateddisease]

His accent?

Did you say his accent?

His English accent (notice capital E)

They invented the bleeding language for goodness sake!

[solitair1]

I'm sorry if I offended you. I didn't mean that. What I meant is that I'm not accustomed to hear the "real" English / British accent so for me it was a little hard understanding everything of what he said. I was in no way criticyzing his accent. If that makes you feel better, I'm criticyzing my lack of understanding or exposure of british accent.

Peace.

[Godcreateddisease]

I am British but I am not English. No offence taken, I was being sarcastic.

[aimalkhan]

cool down and have a banana. your forefather's favorite food.

BTW... Shabir Ally Rocks. He dismantled Atheism using Secular and Athiest sources.

Peace**

[twahashtini]

Allahu Akbar!