Dodging Missiles in Lock On: Modern Air Combat

[tramvaj12]

I like Pantsir S-1 missile. I would like to see that one dodged. Air defense was always my favorite mechanism. Simply it has purpose to protect not attack.

[mickellemastra]

nice vid. but you know where the missile is close enouph to do this roll?

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

@mickellemastra Yeah. It's much easier to see it in the game than it is here in the video. The video is highly compressed, which lowers the quality and makes it harder to see things.

[fable2omg]

@KingCrumbdenfroft Maybe you could help me then, I can't see missiles at all. This is bad. Is there a method to see them?

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

@fable2omg Do a gentle turn; as the missile gets close to you, it will start to make a condensation trail because of the G-forces you're forcing it to pull to follow your turn. You can spot the contrail and then you know where the missile is.

I haven't flown Lock On in at least a year now, and back when I did fly, I was using padlock. I fly a different sim now and I no longer use padlock; maybe someday I'll reinstall Lock On and see if I can spot and evade missiles without using padlock.

[fable2omg]

@KingCrumbdenfroft Thanks for the hint! It will surely help!

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

@fable2omg I just realize that I may have been mistaken about the condensation trail. I know that real missiles do this, but I'm having second thoughts about my memory of them doing it in old L.O.M.A.C.  It's been over two years since I made this video. I do recall being completely unable to spot long-range missiles, or smokeless missiles such as the AMRAAM. It was only short-range missiles that I could see coming, because of their smoke trails. Sorry.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

So, in short, a real missile can be spotted by its condensation trail (which is created by the missile pulling Gs as it follows your turn), even when the missile is not leaving a smoke trail. But I don't think they can be spotted this way in the sim. Just the smoke trail, in L.O.M.A.C.

[fable2omg]

@KingCrumbdenfroft I am pretty sure I have been able to evade a radar lock, yes, Its really the trail that you see not the Smoke, on both if I remember.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

@fable2omg I do not say that it is impossible to evade long-range missiles, but only that I cannot evade them when they get close to me (my "dodge") because I cannot see them.

As for smoke, you may be right that the thousands-of-feet-long trail that the missile leaves could mostly consist of condensation and not smoke, but I was rather talking about the missile's stabilizer contrails (like wingtip contrails). These are formed by the missile pulling Gs, unlike the long trail from the motor.

[Jfoo111]

wow... I never consistently dodge 6 missiles b4 without flare/chaff...

[jeuxpclol101]

arent the misisle proximity explosion???

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

@jeuxpclol101 Yes, but the proximity appears to be incorrect. They don't burst when they should, at least under these conditions.

[omardude2]

woah that was like the matrix! it just flew passes ur wing really close

[myOObeat]

that looks great

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

Thanks!

[DonLduk]

teach me without external cameras.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

@DonLduk Already addressed.

[Twingokit]

is this game realistic ? You can't just dodge a missile.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

@Twingokit I'm not sure. I've talked to at least one real military jet pilot who said that there is a last-second dodging maneuver they teach. I suspect, however, that it is much harder to pull off than it is in Lock On. That said, it's rather difficult to do in the sim, too. I spent years figuring out how to do it.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

Also important to note is that, even if last-second dodges like this are possible to do, real pilots don't have the opportunity to become proficient at it, because if you don't do it right the first time and every other time, boom. I was hit hundreds of times, or perhaps thousands, during the process of figuring this out. Real pilots just don't have that luxury.

[emirpasic]

@KingCrumbdenfroft

You think they (real pilots) don't use simulators too for practising dodging? ;-P

The proximity of missles in the video was more than enough to detonate and neutralize your plane. At those speeds a single small shrapnel or blast pressure can have catastrophic consequences to the plane. I believe that the turn has to be a lot larger to send the missile further off track and away from your aircraft.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

Yep. As I pointed out in one of my comments here a couple of months ago, the airburst isn't right in this sim.

[MajSolo]

@KingCrumbdenfroft if it is the one I am thinking of it requires visual contact with the missile which can be achieved by maneuvering hard in which case the missile will start to produce contrails helping the pilot to achieve visula contact during the missiles final phase. When the pilot knows where the missile is and from where it is coming he knows where to go next. You start this maneuvering when you think the missile is in its last phase. Older missiles could be energy depleted much earlier.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

@MajSolo Thanks, good to know. I never thought of the missiles making condensation trails from Gs.

[666hatchetwarrior]

you guys are so noobish you know what missles r called

[LazicBrano]

In this game there is a one more-less big mistake! RWR cant detect missile launching of SARH and IR missile, only ARH! You can know just when you are locked, but not when the missile has fired!

[Wags182494]

There is no way of detecting IR missiles on either Russian systems or American systems. It's like that in real life, so it's like that in the game.

It CAN detect launching SARH missiles. I mean, thats how it works for me.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

@LazicBrano It's been a few years since I've played Lock On, but if I remember correctly, it doesn't beep at you when an IR missile is launched. The beeping you hear in my video is my G warning and A.o.A. warning.

[ZaozaLaozaGameoza]

Its the all point..

to fell like a real pilot and try to find the jet without the label on him.. and without the full plane view.. its really shit. try to do this with a G limit vision and find the enemy and the missle and Dodg.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

Where did you see labels? You need your eyes checked. Anyway, a real pilot doesn't have nearly as much of a problem spotting a missile; a real human has over twice the field of vision as the simulator, at a much higher zoom, and has many times better resolution. And that's not counting the instinctive head motion, which any P.C. simulator lacks by necessity.

[Appclypse]

Actually i have to say Zoaza, you are wrong mate, in reality you aren't looking into a 25" screen you have full view of everything, yo udon't have to compete with pixels to distinguish targets and you have complete freedom of movement, non of which can ever be modeled completely acurately.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

Yes, that was what I was trying to convey. Except, I have a seventeen-inch monitor and not a twenty-five inch one.

[Appclypse]

i have no idea the size of mine iw ould guess about 20 but i'm unceratin. Whatever it is is irrelevent really the visibility will never be the same on a computer as yuou said.

[ZaozaLaozaGameoza]

Whats the point Dodg misselse with the all plane view... its bullshitt!

its not realistic its only for noobs.

try to find and Dodg the missle with the cookpit view.. like in real

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

No, trying to find and dodge the missile with the cockpit view only is not at all like trying to do it in real life. In reality, it's much easier to see. Cockpit-only is just as unrealistic as external cameras; cockpit-only is unrealistically hard, external cameras are unrealistically easy. Your way is no more realistic than my way. Get off your high horse.

[LazicBrano]

In real world heads movement are more natural. And man see better than in this game! One Serbian pilot saw AMRAAMs and dodge one whats imposible in this game!

[Wags182494]

AMRAAM's have a combat proven hit probability of 90%. Who ever the Serb was, he was very lucky to have dodged an AMRAAM.

Too lucky.

[LazicBrano]

Maj.Slobodan Peric, that was his name! He was shot down near town where I live! And dude, he SAW AMRAAMs!

[Wags182494]

Okay, that's good, because for a second you made me believe that AMRAAMs have some sort of cloaking device that hides the missile from the target.

Even if he did see it, it doesn't matter. It will hit the aircraft. Not only does it have its combat proven 90% hit probability (Please pay special attention to the "combat proven."), but it has this number based on hitting a moving, maneuvering target. So, basically, it has a 90% chance of hitting you at all time. 100%-ish if you dont move.

[LazicBrano]

90% wow! Is that average hit probability, or on some defined distance, as I know hit probability depends on line of factors!Range, ECMs, chaffs, RCS...!

[Wags182494]

I haven't got the exact distances memorized. But it is usually fired beyond visual range, slightly closer to the target than at maximum launch distance. This allows the missile to hit a maneuvering target.

[LazicBrano]

Believe in that! But funny thing is so called smokeless engine, thats not so smokeless as people think!

[Xeno7771]

combat proven? lol.

versus who? some low skilled arab pilots

on extremely downgraded migs and with no experience in air combat?

dont make me laugh.

[Wags182494]

Yes, but also against enemy pilots over the Balkans.

And the Iraqi pilots had pretty good equipment and lots of experience. They flew less training missions that the Western pilots, but they had more combat experience (over the skies of Iran) than most of the Western air forces during the time.

[ichlebefuerflipflops]

@Wags182494

surely not 100%! in some rare cases missiles may have malfunctions ;)

[michiel1403]

Splash one! NIce skills. Do you use afterburner while dodging short range missiles? Cause I would think that this ain't very effective since most of them are IR tracking..

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

Yes, I do. Lock On doesn't seem to model the I.R. effects of afterburners. I experimented a bit with cutting the power against AIM-9s, but it didn't seem to help. All it did was lose my energy more quickly, so it hurt rather than helped.

[Appclypse]

To be honest i think at close range i think the advantages of the extra speed and power out weigh the added heat signal, i'm sure if it's got you locked it's gonna keep you locked until it has shot past. The extra power will help you manuever quicker and climb and dive faster, plus you always havae the flares i suppose

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

I agree. However, I've found flares and chaff to be completely useless in this simulator.

[Appclypse]

I think in simulators, they generaly are modeled quite badly, but then i don't actually have any idea on the effectiveness of them in reality. I'm sure many missiles don't quite have the same locking capability, the real world can't be meassured the same way a computer game can be.

[Atrahasis7]

Good skills you got there, iam only now trying this sim, last one i played was falcon couple years ago. wish me luck.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

Good luck! If I still had a working joystick, I would try to see if I could help out. Unfortunately, I don't.

[EchosOfFlappingBird]

How do you fire a missile?

[sasrj]

The pilot of Su-27 is a noob!

[MustangGT520]

your really good pilot , 2 bad i can't fly good as you ;)

[addictofly]

0:43 my favourite

[Futeki321]

Neato, is it possible to do the evasion while in cockpit view?

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

I do not know. I cannot. A simulator in first-person view is much more limiting than reality for various reasons. A real pilot can see more things, more clearly, with less effort. I use external views to compensate. It is less than an ideal solution, but it beats TrackIR.

[liebstandarteadolf]

The missiles should explode as they go past you.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

I know. The missile effectiveness slider is set to maximum, though, so the problem is intrinsic to the simulator.

[almond7862]

What don't you like about TrackIR? Just curious because I'm gouig to buy it.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

TrackIR not only takes weeks or months to become accustomed to, but it is physically painful to use for long periods of time. Not only does it cause back pain from the extreme rigidity of posture that it demands, but it also causes eyestrain because of how one must always been looking at the monitor out of the corner of one's eye.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

Some say that this is due to incorrect settings, but I tried all different settings and there was no improvement. Either it is so sensitive that one cannot control it, or else it is so insensitive that one's head must be turned awkwardly to the side whenever checking six. The latter would not be a problem, except one has to look out of the corner of the eye to keep the monitor in view.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

Someone who uses TrackIR will indeed win over someone who does not, assuming that both players are stuck with cockpit view and that both players have approximately the same flying skill. However, the added effectiveness comes at the cost of ergonomics and a steep learning curve.

[zola2104]

from what distance from missile do you start hight g turn???

BTW thats a good skill:)

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

Thank you. I don't really know the distance; I would say perhaps a second before it would hit you.

[alex2xxx]

How do you fire missiles

[wraith444]

Kinda reminds me of the "corkscrew" evasion in lomac's training vids, only from behind... Risky though, if you break too early it's got you dead to rights...

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

I see it new on Amazon for about eight dollars, including shipping. If you're going to buy the simulator, I strongly recommend buying Lock On: Modern Air Combat and not Lock On: Flaming Cliffs. The latter has Starforce, a very aggressive and invasive (many say harmful to your computer hardware, even) copy "protection" software.

[9TKyuubi]

if you go at 120 degrees and dive for the deck, there is not a missle in the world that will follow you.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

What if you're already on the deck?

[9TKyuubi]

Well then I guess you either follow your video or you're screwed.

[64thAGGRESSOR]

hes right if you do it legit with no labels its almost impossible to know how close a long range is, but when fired if you can keep a visual on the missile its pretty easy the key in long rang is knowing the range to enemy and when they fired you get a audible warning and its up to you to figure out time till impact if you get a launch warning and start your break you get them to fail half way its not the same as short range :) great vid i just made my evasion vid recently my first

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

Check out my other two films for more examples of how to dodge short-range missiles in different situations. Most of my dodges actually are hard pulls up or down while beaming, not short break-turns while facing away as in this clip. I've also got a handful of new films that I won't be able to upload until next week.

[Bleu0403]

I could sure use this.

When I get a missile alert audible warning I tend to beam and pump chaff and flares non stop for 30 seconds and I actually have no clue about when the missile missed. And that always leads to having the enemy on my six.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

Unfortunately, I cannot evade long-range missiles. If I can't see the missile, I can't dodge it. Although this clip does not show it very well, I could see the missiles from when they were fired until they cut the motors (which I don't think real missiles can do) just before they were about to hit me. If, however, the motor cuts sooner, or the missile is smokeless (like the AIM-120 AMRAAM), there's nothing I can do to dodge it.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

As for flares, I've found them to be nearly useless. The only time I even bother trying is if I'm in a vulnerable situation, such as a stall or the top of a loop where my airspeed is insufficient to dodge the missile. Then I let out a great burst of flares, as quickly as I can pop them out, which sometimes causes the missile to only do some damage.

I recommend having at least 300 knots when trying to dodge missiles. The faster you are, the easier it is.

[pae39]

I guess flares have worked fine for me in combination with evasion. Btw, u see the missiles from cockpit or outside view?

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

It's always external camera for me. I can't use my TrackIR without pain, so the only way I can keep track of anything is with padlocks.

[64thAGGRESSOR]

if you start your evasion but keep the enemy off your nose you can get a missile lock with the vs scan or bore with a 120 the key to is to ripple a volley before you start your break and always try to keep a visual on the enemy, in short range evasion I always evade the missile but the enemy is always right on my dead six, because they didnt have to evade they had time to get angle on target, my thing is to try to run them out of missiles and stay out of guns range and come back for a aim shot

[n1nj4sp4rt4n]

Boss

[GyroShock]

Cool!

[syko150]

Nice