you're reducing this to absurdity, though, it's no longer a realistic argument when you say things like i don't even know if i asked you any questions. its no longer realistic when you take an idea you made up in your head, and posit it as the necessary axiom for every other idea. it's not even an argument, it's you elaborating a tautology. and in any case it's not useful, because no matter what you say and do, things continue as they did before your idea existed and will continue so after it.
@623138 Exactly. When one denies knowledge, their position is reduced to absurdity. You deny knowledge, yet continue to make knowledge claims, exposing the inconsistency of your position, and reducing it to absurdity.
Fact is, God does not send people to Hell for denying what they do not know, but for sinning against the God that they do know. You expose your knowledge of God when you make knowledge claims that you cannot justify. I urge you to repent and seek the Truth.
Because if you cannot justify them, you have no basis for ANY knowledge claim you make, even: "Cogito ergo sum" or “We don’t know anything at all.” You see, when you can’t justify knowledge, and still make knowledge claims, you are being inconsistent.
Now, since you claim that “we don’t know anything,” surely you see the futility of answering any of your questions, since, according to you, you couldn’t know if I had already answered them, or even if you had asked them.
i ask you again, why do we need to justify any of the things you mention? why? i see no need to justify or explain my actions, not even unto myself. we don't know anything at all, really. what do we need to 'know' for?
and i ask you, supposing there is absolute truth, what makes you think it is the christian god? on what authority do you accept the authority of scripture? do you have an answer for everything? (serious question)
what needs justification? all of our actions, every one, come from the inner urge to survive, and to reproduce. other urges exist in the service of these biological imperatives. and these biological urges require no justification, no reason, no thought, no purpose; we fulfill them because that's what we do. we DON'T know that our senses, memory, reasoning, logic, or nature are uniform; they simply appear to be so and we get along pretty well with this. we live by experience to get good results.
@623138 Problem is, if you cannot justify the validity of your senses, memory, reasoning, etc. you can’t know anything let alone that: “all of our actions, come from the inner urge to survive, and to reproduce,” or that any results are “good.” I asked HOW you could know anything without justifying those things, but you neglected to answer that. Perhaps this will be easier, please tell me ONE thing that we would be able to know for certain, and how we could know it.
@ProofThatGodExists No one can ever know anything for certain, as our capacity to understand and remomber is limited. There is always the possibility of error. Sometimes even the very intelligent, when deprived of sleep, misremember "1+1=2". This answer assumes "certain" means 100% certain. I believe you are having a misunderstanding with 623138 because you have different definitions for words. Agree on definitions and then continue with your intellectual trades.
@ProofThatGodExists I am 98% sure. So, if the definition of certain is 100% sure, then no. I accept the fact that I am fallible, and that all experience is based on interpretation and its storage in memory (the fallible part of existence). Do you understand the concept?
@ProofThatGodExists You do not understand the concept. Perception is flawed. Therefore 100% certainty is logically impossible in that the probability that you could be perceiving the event incorrectly is greater than zero. Don't quote me again, thinking that I am ignorant of what I am saying. I have dedicated much of my time to thinking about things just like this. For example, I am up to date on the series "Through the wormhole" That show is an absolutely excellent test of logic.
Why? supposing we were hyper-intelligent monkeys existing by sheer chance on a rock spinning through space, organic forms with no purpose whatsoever and no meaning to life beyond survival and replication, we would still be able to be completely certain whether or not there are three apples in a basket or two. we could still observe and understand the force of gravity. we could still reason that the result of touching fire will always burn... where is god in this?
@623138 Saying what you think we would be able to do, and justifying it are two very different things. You say that we would be able to do all those things, but please tell me how we would know that our senses, memory, reasoning, and the laws of logic are valid and that nature is uniform? Or, please tell me how we could know anythng without that?
absolute truth is nothing but a thought. and thoughts are only in your head. the word 'truth' refers to the consensus modified idea of a unchanging principle of operation, a solid reference point to reality, or a verified fact. all of these take place in the real world, not the philosophical world. you are trying to extend the realm of truth from, 'there are three apples in this basket', to 'this thought and its implications are undeniable'. by the authority of the dictionary, you are wrong.
@623138 Problem is, without God, you could not justify ANYTHING as being an “unchanging principle of operation, a solid reference point to reality, or a verified fact.”
So basically you refuse to directly answer anything I say because in your mind everything that I type here is based on logic and since god created logic I just prove his existence? That is absurd.
@RoundElephant Ah, so they are not arbitrary when you take the multiple universe theory into account? So we agree! (Oh, you aren't going to invoke absolute laws of logic to complain about my contradiction are you? ;-)
How can you not know *why* they deny God? It's right there in the word, Romans 1:20, "...for the LOVE OF THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS." I do a fairly good job examining this "rationale" in my senior-level soc class final research study for SOC 401.
Well done men! God gloifying apologetic and great production.
royaldiadem 7 months ago
everyone secretly believes in god because god said so
mtsnow360 11 months ago
@mtsnow360 Not everyone secretly believes in God, some people actually profess that belief.
ProofThatGodExists 11 months ago
you're reducing this to absurdity, though, it's no longer a realistic argument when you say things like i don't even know if i asked you any questions. its no longer realistic when you take an idea you made up in your head, and posit it as the necessary axiom for every other idea. it's not even an argument, it's you elaborating a tautology. and in any case it's not useful, because no matter what you say and do, things continue as they did before your idea existed and will continue so after it.
623138 1 year ago
@623138 Exactly. When one denies knowledge, their position is reduced to absurdity. You deny knowledge, yet continue to make knowledge claims, exposing the inconsistency of your position, and reducing it to absurdity.
Fact is, God does not send people to Hell for denying what they do not know, but for sinning against the God that they do know. You expose your knowledge of God when you make knowledge claims that you cannot justify. I urge you to repent and seek the Truth.
ProofThatGodExists 1 year ago
Because if you cannot justify them, you have no basis for ANY knowledge claim you make, even: "Cogito ergo sum" or “We don’t know anything at all.” You see, when you can’t justify knowledge, and still make knowledge claims, you are being inconsistent.
Now, since you claim that “we don’t know anything,” surely you see the futility of answering any of your questions, since, according to you, you couldn’t know if I had already answered them, or even if you had asked them.
ProofThatGodExists 1 year ago
cogito ergo sum, for your question.
i ask you again, why do we need to justify any of the things you mention? why? i see no need to justify or explain my actions, not even unto myself. we don't know anything at all, really. what do we need to 'know' for?
and i ask you, supposing there is absolute truth, what makes you think it is the christian god? on what authority do you accept the authority of scripture? do you have an answer for everything? (serious question)
623138 1 year ago
what needs justification? all of our actions, every one, come from the inner urge to survive, and to reproduce. other urges exist in the service of these biological imperatives. and these biological urges require no justification, no reason, no thought, no purpose; we fulfill them because that's what we do. we DON'T know that our senses, memory, reasoning, logic, or nature are uniform; they simply appear to be so and we get along pretty well with this. we live by experience to get good results.
623138 1 year ago
@623138 Problem is, if you cannot justify the validity of your senses, memory, reasoning, etc. you can’t know anything let alone that: “all of our actions, come from the inner urge to survive, and to reproduce,” or that any results are “good.” I asked HOW you could know anything without justifying those things, but you neglected to answer that. Perhaps this will be easier, please tell me ONE thing that we would be able to know for certain, and how we could know it.
ProofThatGodExists 1 year ago
@ProofThatGodExists No one can ever know anything for certain, as our capacity to understand and remomber is limited. There is always the possibility of error. Sometimes even the very intelligent, when deprived of sleep, misremember "1+1=2". This answer assumes "certain" means 100% certain. I believe you are having a misunderstanding with 623138 because you have different definitions for words. Agree on definitions and then continue with your intellectual trades.
Thatmakessense356 7 months ago
@Thatmakessense356 //"No one can ever know anything for certain,"//
Erm, are you certain?
ProofThatGodExists 7 months ago
@ProofThatGodExists I am 98% sure. So, if the definition of certain is 100% sure, then no. I accept the fact that I am fallible, and that all experience is based on interpretation and its storage in memory (the fallible part of existence). Do you understand the concept?
Thatmakessense356 7 months ago
@Thatmakessense356 //"I am 98% sure."//
Are you certain that you are 98% sure?
ProofThatGodExists 7 months ago
@ProofThatGodExists You do not understand the concept. Perception is flawed. Therefore 100% certainty is logically impossible in that the probability that you could be perceiving the event incorrectly is greater than zero. Don't quote me again, thinking that I am ignorant of what I am saying. I have dedicated much of my time to thinking about things just like this. For example, I am up to date on the series "Through the wormhole" That show is an absolutely excellent test of logic.
Thatmakessense356 7 months ago
@Thatmakessense356 //"100% certainty is logically impossible"//
Are you certain? "Impossibility" implies certainty, and it is self-refuting to deny certainty with certainty.
ProofThatGodExists 7 months ago
@Thatmakessense356 //"Perception is flawed. "//
By the way, you need valid perception in order to make the determination that perception is flawed, so that claim is also self-refuting.
ProofThatGodExists 7 months ago
Why? supposing we were hyper-intelligent monkeys existing by sheer chance on a rock spinning through space, organic forms with no purpose whatsoever and no meaning to life beyond survival and replication, we would still be able to be completely certain whether or not there are three apples in a basket or two. we could still observe and understand the force of gravity. we could still reason that the result of touching fire will always burn... where is god in this?
623138 1 year ago
@623138 Saying what you think we would be able to do, and justifying it are two very different things. You say that we would be able to do all those things, but please tell me how we would know that our senses, memory, reasoning, and the laws of logic are valid and that nature is uniform? Or, please tell me how we could know anythng without that?
ProofThatGodExists 1 year ago
absolute truth is nothing but a thought. and thoughts are only in your head. the word 'truth' refers to the consensus modified idea of a unchanging principle of operation, a solid reference point to reality, or a verified fact. all of these take place in the real world, not the philosophical world. you are trying to extend the realm of truth from, 'there are three apples in this basket', to 'this thought and its implications are undeniable'. by the authority of the dictionary, you are wrong.
623138 1 year ago
@623138 Problem is, without God, you could not justify ANYTHING as being an “unchanging principle of operation, a solid reference point to reality, or a verified fact.”
ProofThatGodExists 1 year ago
Absurd based on what absolute standard of logic, and how do you account for that standard according to YOUR worldview?
ProofThatGodExists 1 year ago
So basically you refuse to directly answer anything I say because in your mind everything that I type here is based on logic and since god created logic I just prove his existence? That is absurd.
RoundElephant 1 year ago
Why do the comments need to be approved if you can just censor out the questions you don't like. Aren't you supposed to fairly defend your faith?
RoundElephant 1 year ago
@RoundElephant What absolute standard are you invoking when you say that censoring comments is not fair?
ProofThatGodExists 1 year ago
Logic Science and morality are all arbitrary when you take the multiple universe theory into account.
RoundElephant 1 year ago
@RoundElephant Ah, so they are not arbitrary when you take the multiple universe theory into account? So we agree! (Oh, you aren't going to invoke absolute laws of logic to complain about my contradiction are you? ;-)
ProofThatGodExists 1 year ago
How can you not know *why* they deny God? It's right there in the word, Romans 1:20, "...for the LOVE OF THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS." I do a fairly good job examining this "rationale" in my senior-level soc class final research study for SOC 401.
DoKtaTre 1 year ago