The bible is a faulted book too.....and most of the Bible is based on revelation so what is your point when you say the BOM can't be trusted because it must be based on revelation? The bible is revelation so that puts a hole in our wonderful christianity too.....Down the mormons and every other religion based on a one true god who judges and kills babies.
not only is it "Not Historical" - it's not even good fiction ... it's a complete "Bad read". i give it two thumbs DOWN. i doubt anybody would want to see the movie either... just sayin'
The correct quote is: "You can invite a friend to read the Book of Mormon. Explain that it is not a novel or a history book. It is another testament of Jesus Christ." The church has not changed its view that the Book of Mormon is a historical narrative. It is not a novel, nor is it a history book. It is, correctly speaking, much like the Bible, which is also not a novel or history book.
In my 1961 edition of BoM @ "BRIEF ANALYSIS" it says:
1. The Plates of Nephi...were of 2 kinds--(a) the Larger Plates; (b) the Smaller Plates. The former were more devoted to [pay attention] the secular "HISTORY" of the peoples...(emphasis mine).
2. The Plates of Mormon...a continuation of the [watch for it] "HISTORY"...
3. Plates of Ether, containing A HISTORY of the Jaredites...with the general HISTORY under the title, Book of Ether.
Your current apostles and profits need to RE-read their own written record, especially Nelson and Holland--all of them actually, so they can present a more united front on the matter.
Additionally, since 1830, MANY LDS leaders referred to the BoM as a "history of the Nephites/Lamanites", both a secular history as well as religious.
Who's right?--the Book of Mormon itself or later armchair buffoons?
i read the BoM AND Prayed and the LORD told me that the BoM is a counterfiet of the REAL THING. if anybody wants the REAL THING... it's available!! Jesus is the REAL THING and HIS WORD ENDURETH !! FOREVER !!!
@WordMinistry Really, because I read the BoM and prayed in faith, having gratitude for all I had been given, and asked with a sincere heart, and I was told in no uncertain terms that is was a true scripture of Jesus Christ.
@bomac10000 the devil will tell you anything to keep you from the truth. He is always twisting God's true word and giving humanity an alternative. it's his mode of operation. one of his oldest tricks in the book. in fact, he challanged the Word of God way back in the Garden of Eden... "hath God really said....???" then he told Eve ... "in the day you eat you shall be like gods" - Bottomline is you are being LIED to in no uncertain terms. Mormonism is a direct attack on the Word of God .
@WordMinistry Then Adam partook of the fruit, and what was Gods reply? "The man has become as one of us, to know good from evil". Truth is, this was one of those times that Satan wasn't lying, as the Lord corroborated. The LDS are Christs, he stands at the Head of the Church, and is the Author and Finisher of our Faith..
@bomac10000 - i was reading thru Isaiah this past weekend and came to the part where "Lucifer" was saying "i will be like the most high God" - something struck me that it's always satan's "desire" to be worshiped and be "like" God. ?? do you really think that one day you will be a God ??
@bomac10000 An honest question for you: Ann Lee claimed to be chosen by Christ to receive the “Sacred Roll and Book” published in 1843, starting the Shakers. There are over 100 pages of testimony by over 60 witnesses to it who all received revelation from angels and the Holy Spirit about it's truthfulness. Martin Harris, one of the BOM witnesses even said he had a stronger testimony for it than for the BOM. Why don't you accept it?
@midkanzan An honest answer: Because my testimony is based on no ones experiences other than my own. I do not claim to know all things, but I am as solid as a Rock on this, The Latter Days Saints are the True Church as established by Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith in this last dispensation before the return of Jesus Christ in power and great glory. It is led by a Prophet who stands at the head of the Church and Speaks for God, I know these things through the Holy Spirit of God, and I lie not.
@bomac10000 If satan did created a religion, it would seek to esteem satan (satan and Jesus as spiritual brothers places him as an equal to Jesus and a son of God). It would belittle God (claiming GOD is only an exalted man). It would force its members to rely on works (works will be wholly inadequate on judgement day). He would select a charismatic practiced liar as a founder (Joe Smith was a convicted con man and a known occultist). It would promise you eventual godhood. MORMONISM!
@Bacnow If I was satan, I would convince you that suffering was divine and that knowledge was the path to damnation. Much better to have stupid subjects that want nothing more than to be tested through enless trials of torment. I would also want you to know your place, never being able to better yourself and only gaining salvation through the whim of a higher being. Wait a minute...
@bomac10000 Thank you for answering. now I have a follow-up question if you will indulge me: Their testimony was just as strong, and real to them as yours. Why is yours any more real?
@midkanzan why is the earth being round anymore real then the people who believe its flat? based on evidence. the bible is historical as well as has withstood much critical examination. Look at people like john lennox. he provides much better argumentation and evidence then i can say here. he is a scientist and mathemitician who is also a christian. examine the evidence and decide
@lravenhill My point exactly. One cannot rely on feelings when objective evidence is right in front of your face. Objective evidence doesn't fit with LDS beliefs, so it is rejected (or rewritten) in favor of feelings, which are easily manipulated.
@midkanzan Probably because he has never read it and since the Shakers were a failed utopian society its religious text fell by the wayside. Funny how when all the adherents of a religion die off the books tend to die with them. You dont see many Christian Gnostics running around nowadays either. Kinda like religious survival of the fittest. Just got to last longer than the other guys and you win. Looks like the Jews are still in the lead.
Apparently LDS Apostles Nelson & Holland need to get on the same page. Mormon Apostle Gets Angry at Scientists and Scholars youtube.com/watch?v=QA6BhHPf07U&feature=related
It isn't historical, it is allegory based upon historical figures whose names were changed because the message takes precedence over the characters.Evidence of this was instead of giving the name of the Brother of Jared in the Book of Ether he is merely called "the brother of Jared". There is no need for Anti-Mormons to attach the belief system of the LDS Church because The Book of Mormon already condemns the practice of polygamy (Jacob 2:27)
Bible bashers call the Mormon kettle black. Organized religions/ministries are in competition. None follow their scriptures: Matt.23:15 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." D&C 19:31 "And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost."
50 years active LDS I RARELY heard "faith on the Savior".
What I heard, read AND witnessed was weighted heavily in the direction of faith in JosephsMYTH AND "the Church"--neither of which has ANY POWER to save anyone.
(I do have to admit that LDS INC is placing more emphasis on Jesus than they have in the past---STILL a LONG WAY from the levels of Christ devotion of many Christian faiths.)
Both scripts above apply equally to LDS INC sophistry as much as any other conjob.
Bible bashers call the Mormon kettle black. Organized religions/ministries are in competition. None follow their scriptures: Matt.23:15 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." D&C 19:31 "And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost."
2 Nephi 26:33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile. What is so offensive about this message? Does it not reflect Matt 7:12?
What IS offensive is Joseph marrying other men's wives (many times after sending the husbands on missions), and marrying little teeny-bopper girls. Where is the precedent for THAT in the bible??
@42apostate IF Joseph taught that plural marriage was commanded of God then why didn't Emma & Joseph III institute it in the doctrines of the RLDS Church? Joseph's many children with Emma were proof of his fertility, yet somehow 33 other women became never got pregnant. Joseph also had men sealed to him. Why? Find out here: marvelousworkandawonder(dot)com/js/download/MormonPolygamyMWAW.pdf why you/we should judge not. Unless we witness something with our own eyes it is only rumor.
There is no "if" about it. Joe DID teach PM as a command, and, in fact, taught (along with other leaders), that one could not attain "exaltation without it.
3 children with Emma is "many"?
Abortions were taking place in those days. So where's the evidence that some of those women DIDN'T get pregnant?
"Rumor"? By that logic we can eliminate ALL world history--since we weren't there to witness it.
What exactly is our disagreement here??--judging Mormonism?
@42apostate No, there were a handful of his children born that did not survive infancy, so they adopted. It is illogical in my mind that if he fathered other children as his enemies suggest that they would have aborted them all under some Herodian-like mandate. IF they wanted to out populate the rest of the community, so they could take over then why would they abort their offspring?! And YES, most of written history is false and manipulated according to the prejudices of the writer.
If you fathered a child by another man's wife, would YOU want little rug-rats around as evidence of your promiscuity? I think not--if there were an alternative available.
"They" didn't want to "out populate" the community. That idea was merely a RUSE, an excuse used to SELL Joe's polygamy.
If all of history is false, why attempt to sell your particular take on history as the only true history? YOUR view of it would, according to you, be equally "prejudiced", no?
The fact that the Book of Mormon quotes the books of Isaiah and Matthew often also suggests that the message takes precedence over any notion that it is represented as chronological history. I found the stories in the BOM are an attempt to teach humankind what happens to societies when hate and inequality prevail. In fine, the emotional & physical destruction that happens if we do not love our neighbors as ourselves and do unto others as we'd have done unto us. God is no respecter of persons!
I agree that their own scriptures condemn Mormonism, NOT THEM as individuals.
Again, how is pointing out those LDS scriptures to them, in any way, considered an "
attack" on individual Mormons? If that were true, then every Mormon missionary (I was one) is "attacking" Christian religions (and others) by merely pointing out Christian scripture that "condemns" THEM (according to the LDS POV).
@42apostate You are making the same point I made. I pointed out MY own observation of their scriptures I agree with your logic here because according the the LDS' own 11th Article of Faith - We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may...missionaries violate the tenet of their own religion. A Visitors Welcome sign should suffice don't you think?
Yes, I DO agree. In fact I have long proposed that the LDS missionary programis a FAILED program. I have suggested, at many LDS sites including FAIR LDS.ORG, that sending out postcard invitations to non membs would be much more efficient than sending 50 to 60 thousands sales men and women, who MAY convert 2 or 3 over the 2 year mission--and then, adding salt to the wound, having 75% of those converts drifting away within 2 years.
@42apostate Failed program, based on what? The Gospel is preached by men and women, not post cards, as it was in the time of Christ, those missionaries go out at H.is command, not a marketing departments. What happens after the fact is pure conjecture on your part, but either way, people are always free to make their own decisions.
Right. Those missionaries of old went out w/out "purse of script".
If you are going to comp missionaries of old with da LDS brand, at least be consistant with comparisons.
Based on what? How about results--converts per dollar spent. We ARE dealing with a "CORPORATION" here, and as is with ALL CORPORATIONS, the bottom line is M-O-N-E-Y and efficiency. LDS FAILS!
No postcards? How about LDS money spent on TV/internet ads? Why would "postcards" be any different?
"God works through reality, not through dreams and fanciful visions..." Shawn McCraney
"And the king said unto them, I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit was troubled to know the dream. Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven." Daniel 2
"Pharaoh told them his dream; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh. Joseph said unto Pharaoh, The dream of Pharaoh is one: God hath shewed Pharaoh what he is about to do." Genesis 41
"And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him." Mathew 2
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" Acts 2
I am relieved to tell mr. Howdy Dream on. I could give a flip about the evangelical movement. Preaching hatred. Hukabee is s fine example of how full of crap they can be. Endorsing Romney after all the hate pamplets last election. Then they side with Santorum Catholic big spender. GIve me a break. I forgive you though. Because I cling to my Bible, Book of Mormon and my guns after I pray. Tolerance,, is;t it about time.
Apply your "tolerence" BS to homosexuality. Where was the "tolerance" pre 1978 in denying blacks equal access to priesthood? Where was the "tolerance" in the LDS position toward women and their anti ERA agenda??
Lots of LDS "tolerance" shown as well in the 1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre, eh??
As usual you LDS only tell PART of the story--the part that enhances the LDS IMAGE--
"I'm a Mormon and am completely right and no one can convince me otherwise and you should believe like I do. Now I'm a Christian and am completely right and no one can convince me I'm wrong and you should believe like I do. Now I'm a Deist, and am not sure if there is a God. Now I'm an Atheist, and while I don't think there is a God, in the end I can never prove there isn't. I don't claim to be sure and I don't care if you are an atheist, just don't expect me to believe your claims."
@MyloDude22 I must say that I resemble your remark. That was my slippery slope leaving the "one true church on the face of the whole earth." It's like slipping off a cliff and grabbing this branch, then that one while tumbling down, down into logical reality. I don't know who god is, but I'm reasonably certain god is not Neptune or Zeus or any such diety who would drown or scald one of his own children for sharing a bottle of wine with a lover in tall grass, down by the creek.
They are going to try to marginalize the book as a mystical allegory. It will be valued for its symbolic meaning. The question is, when they do this will they move more towards evangelical Christianity or will they become more like a liberal old line Prot. denomination? I think they will see where the old Prot. denominations who went the that wound up & opt to move towards a more Evangelical out look. Rather like the World Wide Church of God did. Wait & see.
"God works through reality, not through dreams and fanciful visions." - Shawn Mccraney
Yet the "Historical Book" the Bible states, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" (Acts 2:17)
"God works through reality, not through dreams and fanciful visions." - Shawn Mccraney
Yet the "Historical Book" the Bible states, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" (Acts 2:17)
Why do we all need to argue about this all. I think we all need to stand together as faithful followers of Christ no matter what our theological views are. This country is falling apart i really dont think this is the time to be fighting amongst ourselves. We should love one another and help each other. Christ taught "And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."
Just as I suspected, Shawn left off the last part of the sentence. Here's the whole thing: "Invite a friend to read the Book of Mormon. Explain that it is not a novel or a history book. It is another testament of Jesus Christ." He also changed the word "history" (as it appears in the original text), to "historical".
I enjoy watching your videos. They're always completely worthless as scriptural or historical exegesis and very much like those anciently who challenged the prophets in the Book of Mormon. In his video you're taking the words of someone years ago--someone who had no knowledge of the most recent research on Mesoamerican geography and history. I'm an LDS convert and have been nothing but thrilled with my decision.
@MuzzleBlast357 " I'm an LDS convert and have been nothing but thrilled with my decision" The desire to elevate yourself and become a god will make you do that to you. Do you realise that Satan proclaimed that to God? and that is the core of what is behind Joseph Smith's claims? "We too will be gods!" Pride comes before a fall, can't you be happy jut being a servant of the one true God and believing Him when He says there are no others besides Him? Heaven isnt full of gods brother.
@MuzzleBlast357 * REPOST* " I'm an LDS convert and have been nothing but thrilled with my decision" The desire to elevate yourself and become a god will make you do that to you. Do you realise that Satan proclaimed that to God? and that is the core of what is behind Joseph Smith's claims? "We too will be gods!" Pride comes before a fall, can't you be happy jut being a servant of the one true God and believing Him when He says there are no others besides Him?
You know what i have to say? People slip up, and other people misinterpret. I know what I've felt as being a member of the LDS Church, and i cannot deny my feelings. If they later on tell me a bunch of wrong bullcrap that i dont feel is true, I will step away from the church. But right now, people need to STOP trying to take us away from what feels RIGHT to us. Its a faith, not a bunch of facts.
@MatthewUrsaki Fair enough statement I would just say the following. (Since it doesn't matter what we feel but rather what the truth is). Considering the seriousness of anyone's eternal destination; Do you not think that it is worth your time to honestly investigate both set's of claims (as opposed to find out a bunch of "crap" later)? There is a reason other than "just being mean and attacking" that the whole of Christianity considers LDS as a cult. Maybe it is worth your time to find out why?
@MatthewUrsaki You know I got to thinking about it. There is no real easy way to tell or receive critisism about one's religion. On the other hand, to have insight on the dangers (vice just blind and mean raging) and not say anything is more harmful. I guess the right way is to go easy, pray the God will give you words and trust that God will cause some to hear. I've had to study LDS, Catholicism, JW, and a few others. It is tough to make a difference and not offend people.
When a doctor is learning his craft, there are times when he has to immerse himself in "negative" and unpleasant tasks--like cutting open a human cadaver--digging into that nauseating mass, to extract pearls of knowledge that will make him a good doctor.
IOW, don't avoid negatives. Many times they lead to fuller understanding. Paul expressed his thankfullness for his negative problems. They, he felt, made him the "rock" a follower of Christ should be.
That's basically what a 6 year old might say about your statement that there's no Santa. How do you convince a 6 year old that his "faith" in Santa is unfounded?
WITH FACTS!! Same thing one would use to convince a Flat Earther that HIS "faith" in HIS belief is false. As an LDS missionary I used facts to destroy Catholic "faith" and Jehovah's Witness "faith". Why would you think your "faith" in your particular fairytale is beyond reach--ie. "sacred territory"?
I wonder what religious affiliation this guy is and why is he so intensively trying to discredit the mormon church ?? Shouldn't he be more concerned converting people into his church than trying to discredit other churches ???
No one tries to discredit anyone except people like you that instead of being more concerned in inviting people to come to God are more concerned in trying to discredit other religions. I don't think this is the way to go. I think when the spirit of God leave us then we become confused and intolerant. Try to seek the spirit of God so you may find Him (God) again.
When we are not humble and don't obey His commandments we lose the guide of the spirit and become confused.
Then I have to ask you, what is YOUR purpose in being here--at an OBVIOUS anti-Mormonism video, if NOT to "discredit" Shawn (or us)--as you not-so-cleverly just attempted to do in your response to me?
I WAS LDS for many moons (600+ of them). I resigned my LDS membership--but I did not "throw the baby out with the foul bath water"--meaning, I took god with me, and he/she/it is still with me--inspite of your not-so-humble insistence otherwise.
Attempting to APPEAR "humble" as you've done, translates clearly into arrogance--an LDS fetish...
I'm not trying to APPEAR "humble," it seems that everything I say you turn it around, but that's okay. I don't think we can have a conversation because I will always loose with you. You think everything you says it's true when is not.
I don't think this is a good way to make a living. Hope you may find forgiveness when judgement day comes.
Can you be more specific about ONE item (the rest can come later) out of "everything" you say I said, is not "true"? Am I "right" about everything? No. Absolutely not. However, Mormonism is the one thing I know more than most other topics, after almost a lifetime of LIVING it, BELIEVING it, STUDYING it, PRAYING about it, etc.
Even then, I may be mistaken on some LDS point or another. Would I be expected to know the truth unless it is specifically pointed out?
I'm only trying to defend what I believe in so much and what others are trying to discredit. I'm not here to fight with anyone.
I'm not trying to discredit Shawn or anyone on purpose but I'm not the one posting this kind of videos. I'm just defending my faith.
I believe that even if all were a lie, it was still a good thing because it still invites people to come to God and do good and for me that is enough. BUT I know that in fact all of it is true.
Even the most ardent critic of Mormonism will concede that there is good in Mormonism.
And that "good" is emphasized (maybe OVER emphasized) in all LDS based writings, testimonies, and in church meetings--to the EXCLUSION of a mountain of not so inspirational events. We are simply saying that ignoring those events does a diservice to members who deserve to know the full, unenhanced truth.
1 example is the fact that Joseph (the martyr) shot 3 people at Carthage.
@42apostate Same Goes For you Buddy!! So are you Truly Christian then?? What do you think makes a person a Christian. I dont mean to cause contention so sorry if it seems that way. All i want to do is to tell people the truth about the LDS Church.
1 example: your completely right about Joseph Smith shooting 3 people at Carthage............. when an agree mob of 200 men with painted faces stormed the jail shooting at him with every intention of killing him.
If all you want to do is tell people the truth about Mormonism I suggest you get some of your material from some source other than the ETREMELY BIASED Mormon Church.
If I wanted to find out the truth behind ENRON would I be foolish enough to go to ENRON alone to get it? HELL NO!
Re: Joe and Carthage.
Yes and LDS does a great job of telling the story exactly as you just did. Trouble is there's a LOT MORE to the story than one EVER hears about from Mormonism.
@42apostate All history is biased no matter what it is written in favor of the one writing it. I could say that the ones opposing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are EXTREMELY BIASED and i would be right. I have tried to check both accounts and both say they same thing happened. around 200 men with painted faces stormed Carthage and killed the prophet. But if there is something im missed please show me.
Then list for us the "opposing" books you read. I will have read a few of the same ones and I will quiz you on their content as a test to see if you are bullshitting me as I believe you are--a common LDS ploy. Lyin' fer da lard.
If "both accounts" say the same things, what exactly is your complaint??
This is not true. The opposing accounts go into the fact that Joe shot 3 people according to an EYE WITNESS who was there. 50+ active years as LDS and I was NEVER, EVER told this fact in ANY lesson manual, sac meeting talks General Conf., BYU religion classes, Seminary, Institute, YOU NAME IT. I was in those classes as either a student or instructor and NEVER heard of such a thing.
@42apostate Im not complaining at all cause i know im right and i will show you :) By "Both accounts" i mean the LDS account and the non-LDS account of the killing of Joseph Smith at Carthage jail specifically. Both accounts are generally the same other than small details like how many bullets the prophet was able to fire from his pepper box pistol. I think its strange that you say you have never heard this from the LDS account cause i have always know this and i have seen the
@42apostate actual pistol that he used in the Church history museum in salt lake city. The Church does not try to keep this a secret.
To disprove your accusation of this being "a common LDS ploy" and prove that i am not lying i will give the source for the LDS account first and a quote from it and compare it to a Non-LDS account.
@42apostate (lds org/ensign/1994/06/martyrdom-at-carthage?lang=eng&query=carthage+jail) "...pulled the pepperbox from his pocket, and, reaching around the door casing, fired blindly into the hallway. He snapped all six shots. Half discharged, striking three men." So here we see that the Church does include the fact that he shot 3 men in self defense. Which really isnt as bad as you make it out to be. you yourself said you would do the same thing in his situation.
So now the question begs to be asked: what's the date on the Ensign article? Is that the earliest article? Remember too. Not every Mormon subscribes to Ensign. There have been MANY LDS lesson manuals dealing with Joe's death. NONE of them told of him shooting 3 people. On the other hand, we critics have been SCREAMING this fact for 50 years and have been called "liars" and "Satan's pawns", etc. by the LDS faithful the entire time.
WE are the ones that forced the issue on this Carthage story and the mobbers shot by Joe. If WE hadn't caused a fuss about it, it would likely have NEVER been admitted to by LDS Inc.--at least publically. The same happened with polygamy and LDS/BoM racism--and now LDS homophobia.
It's ALWAYS been LDS POLICY to say NOTHING that wasn't totally "faith promoting". If the whole story of Carthage had been known by the majority of LDS Joe would never been called a "martyr".
@42apostate Here is a Non-LDS account of what happened. (en wikipedia org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.) "Smith used a small pepper-box pistol that Cyrus Wheelock had given him when Wheelock had visited the jail earlier that day.Three of the six barrels misfired,but the other three shots injured at least three of the attackers."
The only difference in the accounts is the the use of misfired instead of discharged.
"Cyrus Wheelock" a personal friend of Richards, SMUGGLED the gun in, was not mentioned in your account.
Other facts not stated is that in LDS tours of Carthage, Joseph shooting 3 people IS TO THIS DAY not mentioned. An LDS friend went on this tour just 6 months ago and I asked him if either the six-shooter or Joseph shooting 3 people was mentioned. His reaction was, "WHAT?!" He'd never heard of it--and he, like me, is 60 +!
Does the LDS Church have a PUBLIC video giving the WHOLE Carthage story?--a YouTube video? If not, WHY NOT?--given that the Church is so open and honest about it's history??
Type in YT search box "The UNtold Story of Joseph's Death" by Bill McKeever. Do the facts contained in this vid contradict the LDS version?
I celebrate the Ensign story. It is at least a start toward LDS Inc becoming more forthright in it's treatment of other not-so-well known facts.
Mountain Meadows Massacre is another event, quietly held, since 1857, with the Brigham Yopung generated story (LIE), blaming it on "THE INDIANS DID IT".
LDS critics blew the phony doors off THAT myth in 1950 with J Brooks expose'.
Pretty sad when one has to go to WIKI for the REAL details...
Critics caused the Church to admit it's own members were culpable--AND to apologise to Francher descendants--sort of...
@42apostate A fun little side note from this same website says "There have been conflicting reports about to what extent members of the mob were injured during the attack, and whether any of them were killed" So we see that the two accounts of the prophet shooting 3 men are generally the same.
this isnt really the argument though is it? the original argument was whether joseph smith can be considered a martyr. the answer is yes!! i give examples in the comments bellow.
Actually, those "conflicting reports" were generated by LDS do-gooders, intended to create doubt about ALL the details--doing as Elder Oaks demanded: "Don't criticize our leaders--even if they are wrong".
Your own prophet said that it was reported to him that 2 of the 3 mobbers shot had subsequently died of their wounds. Even I would take the word of your own prophet (AND EYEWITNESS) to the events! You seem reluctant--and would rather listen to others who WERE NOT THERE.
@42apostate I agree that one should research both sides before jumping to conclusions. I have tried my best to do that and every time the side of the LDS Church wins. It seems to me that all the anti-mormon stuff out there are either complete lies, manipulation of words, misunderstandings or uneducated accusations. whether its biblical accusations, false prophecies or what ever the Church always has explanations.
@42apostate So I think him shooting those 3 men is really justified. Unless what your saying is that its evil to defend your own life from an ANGRY MOB OF 200 MEN WITH GUNS trying to send bullets through your body. I dont see how this is really an argument. Wouldnt you do the same thing if you were in Joseph Smiths position? I know i would!
In fact, if I were Joe and I had an AK47 and plenty of ammo I'd have shot all 200 of the bastards. But after doing that, if any shitheads tried to call me a "martyr", I'd come back from the dead and threaten to shoot them too.
No, it's not evil to defend. It's just not Christ-like. He could have vaporized his enemies--but didn't. HE was a REAL Martyr, as was Paul and Peter and the rest. Did they fight back? Not that we read about...
@42apostate Definition of Martyr: "a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause." So yeah by definition Joseph Smith was a Martyr. Throughout his entire life he suffered persecution for his beliefs and was unjustly imprisoned and killed because of it. He never denied what he believed. Being a Martyr doesn't mean you willfully subject yourself to death. It means you unwaveringly stand for what you believe in the face of death.
@42apostate Im confused. If its not evil but also not Christ-like then what is it?
I agree that Christ, Paul, Peter and all the apostles were martyrs but your wrong on when you say they didnt fight back. Christ took a wip and drove the people who were buying and selling things in the temple out of the temple. when Judas and the soldiers came for Christ in the Gethsemane to take him to be crucified peter cut one of their ears off. So they did fight and stand for what they believed
Christ and the whip and Christ being tortured and murdered are two separate events and no connection to each other. Apples and oranges. You only mention the whip incident to detract from the topic, ie. blow smoke.
When these REAL martyrs were facing torture and death is what we were talking about. Did they fight back AT THAT TIME?? No--according to the record.
In order for the definition of "martyr" to work for Joe, you must expand the meaning. When you do so you must INCLUDE millions upon millions of men/women who died in battle (BOTH SIDES) who died for their beliefs (their brand of religion/god/political beliefs. HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS have so perished, thereby DILUTING the true meaning of the word as one who died for beliefs WITHOUT fighting back or harming anyone.
Joe as a martyr is a fairytale straight out of Disneyland...
@42apostate It seems to me that you are just trying to redefine the meaning of martyr to support your argument. Cause In these Definition of the read it doesn't say that they cant fight back.
Martyr: 1"One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle." 2 "a person who suffers greatly or dies for a cause, belief, etc."
3 "one who suffers for the sake of principle" ( thefreedictionary com/martyr)
@42apostate Martyr: 1"A person who is put to death or suffers on behalf of a cause" 2 "A person who under goes severe or constant suffering." (Random House Webster's Dictionary) So again, whether you like it or not, by definition Joseph Smith was a martyr. Just because there have been millions of people who have died for a belief or cause does not dilute the meaning of the word. Those people are martyrs also.
@42apostate just because you dont believe in joseph smiths cause or belief doesnt mean he was not a martyr. An example: Muhammad founded the Muslim religion and was killed for it. now i dont believe the muslim religion to be the true religion but that doesnt mean he was not a martyr for the cause. there have been plenty of martyrs.
@42apostate Is a a martyr some unattainable position such as a Jedi Master that a lot of people can't fit the description. If you, Apostate, die for your cause of anti-Mormonism then you would be a martyr for the anti-Mormonism cause. your being retarded.
Yes, I would be--but not likely if I fought my attackers and either killed or injured them.
Jesus was the ultimate "martyr". How would humans even hope to join Christ in that category? What criteria must be met to join Him as a martyr? The ONLY answer is to go "like a lamb to the slaughter". It's OBVIVOUS Joseph Smith DID NOT go "as a lamb". He went (understandably) fighting tooth and nail to save himself, ultimately shooting 3 people in the process.
@42apostate No i mentioned the whip incident and peter cutting of the ear of the guard as an example of them fighting, standing up for and protecting what they believed in.
I agree that they were martyrs and the record may not say that they fought back but i dont think that it says they didnt fight back either. I might be mistaken and if i am please show me where it says that they willingly subjected themselves to death.
You are completely free to twist and turn and make up any kind of story or excuse so you can include ol' Joe to your billion-man list of martyrs, But, I ain't buyin' it--and won't comment further.
This is the same brick wall I'd come up against when trying to show Mormons that Joe shot 3 people at Carthage---AND drank wine---AND had a smoke...
The denials are astonishing--and that in a church that CLAIMS honesty as a virtue...
@42apostate So what! Even if he did shoot 3 people, he still a man fighting for his life. Abraham killed, Moses wiped out an army, One person in the Bible even prayed that God would stop the sun in the sky just so he could continued massacring his enemies in broad daylight with out having to wait ill the next day.
As far as him using tobbaco. That is a common part of Church History. Science didn't know it was bad in that time. Then he prayed and asked God and received the commandment to stop use
The Word of Wisdom came forth because of the desire Emma Smith not to have to clean up (Jacob 4:14) It was adapted to the capacity of the weak because it is not a commandment! see D&C 89:2
Many section headers in the D&C reveal that they were not given by command of God but because of the desires of the members. D&C 5 "at the request of Martin Harris" Sec. 8-"desired to be".
The shedding of blood at Carthage & Mountain Meadows can never be justified even by Mormons (Ether 8:19). I do not condemn them, their own scriptures do! Who am I to judge? (Matt. 7:1-5)
If robbed a bank so I could feed my family but I was killed in the attempt, shot to death by a "mob" of bank guards, and my wife called me a martyr for my belief in preserving my family, wolud I qualify as a martyr that people should honor?
IOW. Where do you draw the line?
Anyone who makes the claim automatically qualifies?
@ehatm11 Adults need to deal with reality. Give me references that prove the existence of Book of Mormon sites that are as incontrovertible as the reality of Jerusalem, Egypt, the Jordan River, etc. Is this why the Harry Potter series, video games, etc are so popular with Mormons, that they were raised to believe in fantasy?
@eeikman Here's your "references": Moroni 10:4-5. Of course, you won't lower yourself to actually reading the Book of Mormon, cover-to-cover, then praying sincerely about it, which is why you will continue--as the Bible says, "kicking against the pricks". (Acts 9:5)
@JediLDS When has God ever said to use our feelings to test if something is true or not (Jeremiah 17:9)? Acts 17 tells us how to test if something is true or not, we are to be like the Bereans. Who is the one that is rebelling against God (kicking against the pricks) my friend? God wants you to know the truth yet you keep the blinders of Mormonism there to cloud the truth. I pray God has not hardened your heart my friend.
@Exodus314IAM Praying sincerely for the truth of something is not a matter of "feelings", just as a witness from the Holy Ghost not a mere "feeling". Moroni 10:4-5 is a PROMISE. I put that promise to the test--as have millions of other LDS--and it WORKS. Very simple, actually. All one needs is the faith that God is not deceptive and will not allow Satan to answer the prayer of a humble person who is doing nothing more than seeking the truth. Apparently, that is a concept you don't understand.
@JediLDS Get real, Jedi. Many people pray about the book and feel NOTHING. However, Mormons pressure people to pray OVER and OVER again until they agree. You only accept one answer to this test. Anything other than "Yes, it's all true", and you blame the person for not being sincere, honest, etc.
@JediLDS You said, " we accept on answer because their only IS one answer. "
Oh, so you admit you stack the deck against people. Well, thanks for being honest. And you have no idea the type of pressure you put on people. You're so engrossed in your beliefs you can't see any other perspective.
@JediLDS I'm claiming that you ask people questions but don't really care what their concerns are. Your name is perfect because most of Mormonism is like dealing with a Jedi mind trick.
@Nepthu Generally, their concerns are whether the Book of Mormon is true or not. No one forces them to join the church. They do it of their own free will.
@JediLDS You're correct. People join the church of their own free will, mostly because they don't know what they're getting into. No one tells them that the Book of Mormon doesn't match up with most Mormon beliefs.
dude you're an idiot. this guys video is taken out of complete context. read the whole talk, not just the little bit that you think is wrong. he's an apostle of the lord, you think he'd say something wrong about the church... think again. i am not a mormon, and i already know that your full of shit!
testament of Jesus Christ. Its very purpose is “to the convincing that Jesus is the Christ, the
Eternal God, manifesting himself unto
all nations.”
What he means is that we shouldn't just look at it like a history text book, but a spiritual guide just as when we think of the Bible we dont think of it as a History text book though it is. We take it as the word of God.
Are you attempting to put words in the mouth of your own apostle?
No matter HOW you spin it the BoM IS A HISTORY BOOK (IF it were actually true--it's not). The historical aspects/claims found in the BoM are what condemn the thing.
Denying that it purports to be an historical report is pretty lame--tho it IS YOUR ONLY OUT.
It has always been touted (and sold to investigators) as "the history (spiritual AND secular!) of a group of Old Test. Isrealites."
@42apostate I didn't say that it wasn't a history book. I said that it wasn't to be treated only as such. read before you judge Apostate. That goes for this comment and the Book of Mormon itself.
I am not mad at anyone. I like to follow the teachings of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who taught us to love our enemies. It matters not who is right or wrong on this earth.We will know all in the next. All we need to know now is love your brother as you love yourself. If we followed that one commandment there would be no need for any religion.
The correct word is history and not historical. When you quote somebody, get the quote right. Don't twist the meanings to suit your own ends. Honesty is the best policy.
The bible is a faulted book too.....and most of the Bible is based on revelation so what is your point when you say the BOM can't be trusted because it must be based on revelation? The bible is revelation so that puts a hole in our wonderful christianity too.....Down the mormons and every other religion based on a one true god who judges and kills babies.
KyaniDave 4 days ago
@KyaniDave the bible is revelation? what does that mean.
IvanTheHealer 2 days ago
not only is it "Not Historical" - it's not even good fiction ... it's a complete "Bad read". i give it two thumbs DOWN. i doubt anybody would want to see the movie either... just sayin'
WordMinistry 1 week ago
The correct quote is: "You can invite a friend to read the Book of Mormon. Explain that it is not a novel or a history book. It is another testament of Jesus Christ." The church has not changed its view that the Book of Mormon is a historical narrative. It is not a novel, nor is it a history book. It is, correctly speaking, much like the Bible, which is also not a novel or history book.
MuzzleBlast357 1 week ago
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@MuzzleBlast357 quit the bullshit bro, where are the millions of metal swords and shields up on hill cumorah? No where to be seen
liamlloyd77 1 week ago
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@MuzzleBlast357
In my 1961 edition of BoM @ "BRIEF ANALYSIS" it says:
1. The Plates of Nephi...were of 2 kinds--(a) the Larger Plates; (b) the Smaller Plates. The former were more devoted to [pay attention] the secular "HISTORY" of the peoples...(emphasis mine).
2. The Plates of Mormon...a continuation of the [watch for it] "HISTORY"...
3. Plates of Ether, containing A HISTORY of the Jaredites...with the general HISTORY under the title, Book of Ether.
42apostate 1 week ago
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@MuzzleBlast357
Your current apostles and profits need to RE-read their own written record, especially Nelson and Holland--all of them actually, so they can present a more united front on the matter.
Additionally, since 1830, MANY LDS leaders referred to the BoM as a "history of the Nephites/Lamanites", both a secular history as well as religious.
Who's right?--the Book of Mormon itself or later armchair buffoons?
42apostate 1 week ago
i read the BoM AND Prayed and the LORD told me that the BoM is a counterfiet of the REAL THING. if anybody wants the REAL THING... it's available!! Jesus is the REAL THING and HIS WORD ENDURETH !! FOREVER !!!
WordMinistry 1 week ago
@WordMinistry Really, because I read the BoM and prayed in faith, having gratitude for all I had been given, and asked with a sincere heart, and I was told in no uncertain terms that is was a true scripture of Jesus Christ.
bomac10000 1 week ago
@bomac10000 the devil will tell you anything to keep you from the truth. He is always twisting God's true word and giving humanity an alternative. it's his mode of operation. one of his oldest tricks in the book. in fact, he challanged the Word of God way back in the Garden of Eden... "hath God really said....???" then he told Eve ... "in the day you eat you shall be like gods" - Bottomline is you are being LIED to in no uncertain terms. Mormonism is a direct attack on the Word of God .
WordMinistry 1 week ago
@WordMinistry Then Adam partook of the fruit, and what was Gods reply? "The man has become as one of us, to know good from evil". Truth is, this was one of those times that Satan wasn't lying, as the Lord corroborated. The LDS are Christs, he stands at the Head of the Church, and is the Author and Finisher of our Faith..
bomac10000 1 week ago
@bomac10000 - i was reading thru Isaiah this past weekend and came to the part where "Lucifer" was saying "i will be like the most high God" - something struck me that it's always satan's "desire" to be worshiped and be "like" God. ?? do you really think that one day you will be a God ??
WordMinistry 1 week ago
@bomac10000 An honest question for you: Ann Lee claimed to be chosen by Christ to receive the “Sacred Roll and Book” published in 1843, starting the Shakers. There are over 100 pages of testimony by over 60 witnesses to it who all received revelation from angels and the Holy Spirit about it's truthfulness. Martin Harris, one of the BOM witnesses even said he had a stronger testimony for it than for the BOM. Why don't you accept it?
midkanzan 1 week ago
@midkanzan An honest answer: Because my testimony is based on no ones experiences other than my own. I do not claim to know all things, but I am as solid as a Rock on this, The Latter Days Saints are the True Church as established by Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith in this last dispensation before the return of Jesus Christ in power and great glory. It is led by a Prophet who stands at the head of the Church and Speaks for God, I know these things through the Holy Spirit of God, and I lie not.
bomac10000 1 week ago
@bomac10000 If satan did created a religion, it would seek to esteem satan (satan and Jesus as spiritual brothers places him as an equal to Jesus and a son of God). It would belittle God (claiming GOD is only an exalted man). It would force its members to rely on works (works will be wholly inadequate on judgement day). He would select a charismatic practiced liar as a founder (Joe Smith was a convicted con man and a known occultist). It would promise you eventual godhood. MORMONISM!
Bacnow 1 week ago
@Bacnow
...excellent summary of Mormonism. The notion of godhood goes all the way back to the serpent in the GofE...imagine that. lol
Jack44M 1 week ago
@Bacnow If I was satan, I would convince you that suffering was divine and that knowledge was the path to damnation. Much better to have stupid subjects that want nothing more than to be tested through enless trials of torment. I would also want you to know your place, never being able to better yourself and only gaining salvation through the whim of a higher being. Wait a minute...
daolong51279 5 days ago
@bomac10000 Thank you for answering. now I have a follow-up question if you will indulge me: Their testimony was just as strong, and real to them as yours. Why is yours any more real?
midkanzan 1 week ago
@midkanzan why is the earth being round anymore real then the people who believe its flat? based on evidence. the bible is historical as well as has withstood much critical examination. Look at people like john lennox. he provides much better argumentation and evidence then i can say here. he is a scientist and mathemitician who is also a christian. examine the evidence and decide
lravenhill 4 days ago
@lravenhill My point exactly. One cannot rely on feelings when objective evidence is right in front of your face. Objective evidence doesn't fit with LDS beliefs, so it is rejected (or rewritten) in favor of feelings, which are easily manipulated.
midkanzan 4 days ago
@midkanzan Probably because he has never read it and since the Shakers were a failed utopian society its religious text fell by the wayside. Funny how when all the adherents of a religion die off the books tend to die with them. You dont see many Christian Gnostics running around nowadays either. Kinda like religious survival of the fittest. Just got to last longer than the other guys and you win. Looks like the Jews are still in the lead.
daolong51279 5 days ago
@daolong51279 Indeed they are.
midkanzan 5 days ago
this is not news... it's REALITY ... the BoM is fiction with some biblical truth mixed in. the bottomline is (Truth + Lie = Lie) -
Jesus is the Truth. the claims of the BoM are fabricated.
WordMinistry 1 week ago
none of you have read the book of mormon. or prayed so how can you disprove it! when you dont know anything.
Lexi04121 2 weeks ago
Apparently LDS Apostles Nelson & Holland need to get on the same page. Mormon Apostle Gets Angry at Scientists and Scholars youtube.com/watch?v=QA6BhHPf07U&feature=related
johnjerdon 2 weeks ago
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Apparently LDS Apostles Nelson & Holland need to get on the same page. youtube.com/watch?v=QA6BhHPf07U&feature=related
johnjerdon 2 weeks ago
Apparently LDS Apostles Nelson & Holland need to get on the same page. youtube.com/watch?v=QA6BhHPf07U&feature=related
johnjerdon 2 weeks ago
It isn't historical, it is allegory based upon historical figures whose names were changed because the message takes precedence over the characters.Evidence of this was instead of giving the name of the Brother of Jared in the Book of Ether he is merely called "the brother of Jared". There is no need for Anti-Mormons to attach the belief system of the LDS Church because The Book of Mormon already condemns the practice of polygamy (Jacob 2:27)
johnjerdon 2 weeks ago
Bible bashers call the Mormon kettle black. Organized religions/ministries are in competition. None follow their scriptures: Matt.23:15 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." D&C 19:31 "And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost."
johnjerdon 2 weeks ago
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@johnjerdon
50 years active LDS I RARELY heard "faith on the Savior".
What I heard, read AND witnessed was weighted heavily in the direction of faith in JosephsMYTH AND "the Church"--neither of which has ANY POWER to save anyone.
(I do have to admit that LDS INC is placing more emphasis on Jesus than they have in the past---STILL a LONG WAY from the levels of Christ devotion of many Christian faiths.)
Both scripts above apply equally to LDS INC sophistry as much as any other conjob.
42apostate 1 week ago
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42apostate 1 week ago
Bible bashers call the Mormon kettle black. Organized religions/ministries are in competition. None follow their scriptures: Matt.23:15 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." D&C 19:31 "And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost."
johnjerdon 2 weeks ago
2 Nephi 26:33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile. What is so offensive about this message? Does it not reflect Matt 7:12?
johnjerdon 2 weeks ago
@johnjerdon
Nothing offensive there.
What IS offensive is Joseph marrying other men's wives (many times after sending the husbands on missions), and marrying little teeny-bopper girls. Where is the precedent for THAT in the bible??
42apostate 2 weeks ago
@42apostate IF Joseph taught that plural marriage was commanded of God then why didn't Emma & Joseph III institute it in the doctrines of the RLDS Church? Joseph's many children with Emma were proof of his fertility, yet somehow 33 other women became never got pregnant. Joseph also had men sealed to him. Why? Find out here: marvelousworkandawonder(dot)com/js/download/MormonPolygamyMWAW.pdf why you/we should judge not. Unless we witness something with our own eyes it is only rumor.
johnjerdon 2 weeks ago
@johnjerdon
There is no "if" about it. Joe DID teach PM as a command, and, in fact, taught (along with other leaders), that one could not attain "exaltation without it.
3 children with Emma is "many"?
Abortions were taking place in those days. So where's the evidence that some of those women DIDN'T get pregnant?
"Rumor"? By that logic we can eliminate ALL world history--since we weren't there to witness it.
What exactly is our disagreement here??--judging Mormonism?
42apostate 2 weeks ago
@42apostate No, there were a handful of his children born that did not survive infancy, so they adopted. It is illogical in my mind that if he fathered other children as his enemies suggest that they would have aborted them all under some Herodian-like mandate. IF they wanted to out populate the rest of the community, so they could take over then why would they abort their offspring?! And YES, most of written history is false and manipulated according to the prejudices of the writer.
johnjerdon 2 weeks ago
@johnjerdon
If you fathered a child by another man's wife, would YOU want little rug-rats around as evidence of your promiscuity? I think not--if there were an alternative available.
"They" didn't want to "out populate" the community. That idea was merely a RUSE, an excuse used to SELL Joe's polygamy.
If all of history is false, why attempt to sell your particular take on history as the only true history? YOUR view of it would, according to you, be equally "prejudiced", no?
42apostate 2 weeks ago
The fact that the Book of Mormon quotes the books of Isaiah and Matthew often also suggests that the message takes precedence over any notion that it is represented as chronological history. I found the stories in the BOM are an attempt to teach humankind what happens to societies when hate and inequality prevail. In fine, the emotional & physical destruction that happens if we do not love our neighbors as ourselves and do unto others as we'd have done unto us. God is no respecter of persons!
johnjerdon 2 weeks ago
@johnjerdon
Is it "attacking" to point out to LDS folks, Jacob 2:27?
I guarantee that not one Mormon in a million ever took notice of that scripture, on their own.
42apostate 2 weeks ago
@42apostate As I said, I don't have to condemn them, their scriptures already do. If I were attacking, I would/could have listed much more than that.
johnjerdon 2 weeks ago
@johnjerdon
I agree that their own scriptures condemn Mormonism, NOT THEM as individuals.
Again, how is pointing out those LDS scriptures to them, in any way, considered an "
attack" on individual Mormons? If that were true, then every Mormon missionary (I was one) is "attacking" Christian religions (and others) by merely pointing out Christian scripture that "condemns" THEM (according to the LDS POV).
Again. What exactly is our disagreement here??
42apostate 2 weeks ago
@42apostate You are making the same point I made. I pointed out MY own observation of their scriptures I agree with your logic here because according the the LDS' own 11th Article of Faith - We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may...missionaries violate the tenet of their own religion. A Visitors Welcome sign should suffice don't you think?
johnjerdon 2 weeks ago
@johnjerdon
Yes, I DO agree. In fact I have long proposed that the LDS missionary programis a FAILED program. I have suggested, at many LDS sites including FAIR LDS.ORG, that sending out postcard invitations to non membs would be much more efficient than sending 50 to 60 thousands sales men and women, who MAY convert 2 or 3 over the 2 year mission--and then, adding salt to the wound, having 75% of those converts drifting away within 2 years.
Wasn't the subject,"attacking..."?
42apostate 2 weeks ago
@42apostate Failed program, based on what? The Gospel is preached by men and women, not post cards, as it was in the time of Christ, those missionaries go out at H.is command, not a marketing departments. What happens after the fact is pure conjecture on your part, but either way, people are always free to make their own decisions.
bomac10000 1 week ago
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@bomac10000
Right. Those missionaries of old went out w/out "purse of script".
If you are going to comp missionaries of old with da LDS brand, at least be consistant with comparisons.
Based on what? How about results--converts per dollar spent. We ARE dealing with a "CORPORATION" here, and as is with ALL CORPORATIONS, the bottom line is M-O-N-E-Y and efficiency. LDS FAILS!
No postcards? How about LDS money spent on TV/internet ads? Why would "postcards" be any different?
42apostate 1 week ago
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@johnjerdon
Hair-splitting word games...
42apostate 1 week ago
"God works through reality, not through dreams and fanciful visions..." Shawn McCraney
"And the king said unto them, I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit was troubled to know the dream. Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven." Daniel 2
"Pharaoh told them his dream; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh. Joseph said unto Pharaoh, The dream of Pharaoh is one: God hath shewed Pharaoh what he is about to do." Genesis 41
civadminlaw 2 weeks ago
"And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him." Mathew 2
civadminlaw 2 weeks ago
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" Acts 2
civadminlaw 2 weeks ago
I am relieved to tell mr. Howdy Dream on. I could give a flip about the evangelical movement. Preaching hatred. Hukabee is s fine example of how full of crap they can be. Endorsing Romney after all the hate pamplets last election. Then they side with Santorum Catholic big spender. GIve me a break. I forgive you though. Because I cling to my Bible, Book of Mormon and my guns after I pray. Tolerance,, is;t it about time.
jadermankx500 3 weeks ago
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@jadermankx500
Apply your "tolerence" BS to homosexuality. Where was the "tolerance" pre 1978 in denying blacks equal access to priesthood? Where was the "tolerance" in the LDS position toward women and their anti ERA agenda??
Lots of LDS "tolerance" shown as well in the 1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre, eh??
As usual you LDS only tell PART of the story--the part that enhances the LDS IMAGE--
a GRAVEN image...
42apostate 1 week ago
"God works through reality." Dude is legit if he can say that with a straight face.
MyloDude22 4 weeks ago
"I'm a Mormon and am completely right and no one can convince me otherwise and you should believe like I do. Now I'm a Christian and am completely right and no one can convince me I'm wrong and you should believe like I do. Now I'm a Deist, and am not sure if there is a God. Now I'm an Atheist, and while I don't think there is a God, in the end I can never prove there isn't. I don't claim to be sure and I don't care if you are an atheist, just don't expect me to believe your claims."
MyloDude22 4 weeks ago
@MyloDude22 I must say that I resemble your remark. That was my slippery slope leaving the "one true church on the face of the whole earth." It's like slipping off a cliff and grabbing this branch, then that one while tumbling down, down into logical reality. I don't know who god is, but I'm reasonably certain god is not Neptune or Zeus or any such diety who would drown or scald one of his own children for sharing a bottle of wine with a lover in tall grass, down by the creek.
AgnosticTao 3 weeks ago
They are going to try to marginalize the book as a mystical allegory. It will be valued for its symbolic meaning. The question is, when they do this will they move more towards evangelical Christianity or will they become more like a liberal old line Prot. denomination? I think they will see where the old Prot. denominations who went the that wound up & opt to move towards a more Evangelical out look. Rather like the World Wide Church of God did. Wait & see.
VictorLepanto 1 month ago
Taken from an article titled: "How can I be a missionary now?" “Be Thou an Example of the Believers,” Ensign, Nov. 2010, 48.
I don't think this is a good argument....
spurlock541 1 month ago
could you tell me when the artical was written that m russel nelson said that id like to read it
jasontrevorhaye 1 month ago
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"God works through reality, not through dreams and fanciful visions." - Shawn Mccraney
Yet the "Historical Book" the Bible states, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" (Acts 2:17)
civadminlaw 1 month ago
"God works through reality, not through dreams and fanciful visions." - Shawn Mccraney
Yet the "Historical Book" the Bible states, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" (Acts 2:17)
civadminlaw 1 month ago
Spin it Shawn Spin it!
scottwins2 1 month ago
Why do we all need to argue about this all. I think we all need to stand together as faithful followers of Christ no matter what our theological views are. This country is falling apart i really dont think this is the time to be fighting amongst ourselves. We should love one another and help each other. Christ taught "And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."
Can I get and AMEN!!
dkp121890 1 month ago
Just as I suspected, Shawn left off the last part of the sentence. Here's the whole thing: "Invite a friend to read the Book of Mormon. Explain that it is not a novel or a history book. It is another testament of Jesus Christ." He also changed the word "history" (as it appears in the original text), to "historical".
JediLDS 1 month ago
I enjoy watching your videos. They're always completely worthless as scriptural or historical exegesis and very much like those anciently who challenged the prophets in the Book of Mormon. In his video you're taking the words of someone years ago--someone who had no knowledge of the most recent research on Mesoamerican geography and history. I'm an LDS convert and have been nothing but thrilled with my decision.
MuzzleBlast357 1 month ago
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@MuzzleBlast357 " I'm an LDS convert and have been nothing but thrilled with my decision" The desire to elevate yourself and become a god will make you do that to you. Do you realise that Satan proclaimed that to God? and that is the core of what is behind Joseph Smith's claims? "We too will be gods!" Pride comes before a fall, can't you be happy jut being a servant of the one true God and believing Him when He says there are no others besides Him? Heaven isnt full of gods brother.
Moving2U 1 month ago
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@MuzzleBlast357 * REPOST* " I'm an LDS convert and have been nothing but thrilled with my decision" The desire to elevate yourself and become a god will make you do that to you. Do you realise that Satan proclaimed that to God? and that is the core of what is behind Joseph Smith's claims? "We too will be gods!" Pride comes before a fall, can't you be happy jut being a servant of the one true God and believing Him when He says there are no others besides Him?
(Great post, M2U)
42apostate 1 month ago
Spin it Shawn Spin it!
scottwins2 1 month ago
@scottwins2
Spin it Monson Spin it!
42apostate 1 month ago
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yeah, i believe that these people were fakers and an enemy of the church, sorry
to say this but all of you, are "pathetic". i KnoW all of us will be judged accordingly,
i do not know about you to where you're gonna be after the judgment, i think
you'll be in the outer darkness. YOU JUST DO NOT KNOW WHAT HEAVENLY FATHER AND JESUS CHRIST IS CAPABLE OF, SO BEWARE my brothers and sisters.
iyoyungaz 1 month ago
You know what i have to say? People slip up, and other people misinterpret. I know what I've felt as being a member of the LDS Church, and i cannot deny my feelings. If they later on tell me a bunch of wrong bullcrap that i dont feel is true, I will step away from the church. But right now, people need to STOP trying to take us away from what feels RIGHT to us. Its a faith, not a bunch of facts.
MatthewUrsaki 1 month ago
@MatthewUrsaki Fair enough statement I would just say the following. (Since it doesn't matter what we feel but rather what the truth is). Considering the seriousness of anyone's eternal destination; Do you not think that it is worth your time to honestly investigate both set's of claims (as opposed to find out a bunch of "crap" later)? There is a reason other than "just being mean and attacking" that the whole of Christianity considers LDS as a cult. Maybe it is worth your time to find out why?
Moving2U 1 month ago
@Moving2U
I thought i should know to, but its in such negative circumstances. It's not the way we should find out. Trust me, I just went through it.
MatthewUrsaki 1 month ago
@MatthewUrsaki You know I got to thinking about it. There is no real easy way to tell or receive critisism about one's religion. On the other hand, to have insight on the dangers (vice just blind and mean raging) and not say anything is more harmful. I guess the right way is to go easy, pray the God will give you words and trust that God will cause some to hear. I've had to study LDS, Catholicism, JW, and a few others. It is tough to make a difference and not offend people.
Moving2U 1 month ago
@MatthewUrsaki
When a doctor is learning his craft, there are times when he has to immerse himself in "negative" and unpleasant tasks--like cutting open a human cadaver--digging into that nauseating mass, to extract pearls of knowledge that will make him a good doctor.
IOW, don't avoid negatives. Many times they lead to fuller understanding. Paul expressed his thankfullness for his negative problems. They, he felt, made him the "rock" a follower of Christ should be.
42apostate 1 month ago
@MatthewUrsaki
That's basically what a 6 year old might say about your statement that there's no Santa. How do you convince a 6 year old that his "faith" in Santa is unfounded?
WITH FACTS!! Same thing one would use to convince a Flat Earther that HIS "faith" in HIS belief is false. As an LDS missionary I used facts to destroy Catholic "faith" and Jehovah's Witness "faith". Why would you think your "faith" in your particular fairytale is beyond reach--ie. "sacred territory"?
42apostate 1 month ago
I wonder what religious affiliation this guy is and why is he so intensively trying to discredit the mormon church ?? Shouldn't he be more concerned converting people into his church than trying to discredit other churches ???
everafter0123 2 months ago
@everafter0123
The same can be said of LDS missionaries who MUST "discredit" other churches before they can present the LDS message of superiority.
42apostate 1 month ago
@everafter0123
It's an ages old sales gimmick--whether you're selling MLM, vacuums or religion,
ie. totally destroy the confidence one might have in their old product--then you can present your "better" version.
I was an LDS Missionary, and I KNOW the drill...
42apostate 1 month ago
@42apostate
No one tries to discredit anyone except people like you that instead of being more concerned in inviting people to come to God are more concerned in trying to discredit other religions. I don't think this is the way to go. I think when the spirit of God leave us then we become confused and intolerant. Try to seek the spirit of God so you may find Him (God) again.
When we are not humble and don't obey His commandments we lose the guide of the spirit and become confused.
everafter0123 1 month ago
@everafter0123
" No one tries to discredit"?!
Then I have to ask you, what is YOUR purpose in being here--at an OBVIOUS anti-Mormonism video, if NOT to "discredit" Shawn (or us)--as you not-so-cleverly just attempted to do in your response to me?
42apostate 1 month ago
@everafter0123
Thanks, tho, for your advice about finding God.
I WAS LDS for many moons (600+ of them). I resigned my LDS membership--but I did not "throw the baby out with the foul bath water"--meaning, I took god with me, and he/she/it is still with me--inspite of your not-so-humble insistence otherwise.
Attempting to APPEAR "humble" as you've done, translates clearly into arrogance--an LDS fetish...
42apostate 1 month ago
@42apostate
I'm not trying to APPEAR "humble," it seems that everything I say you turn it around, but that's okay. I don't think we can have a conversation because I will always loose with you. You think everything you says it's true when is not.
I don't think this is a good way to make a living. Hope you may find forgiveness when judgement day comes.
everafter0123 1 month ago
@everafter0123
Can you be more specific about ONE item (the rest can come later) out of "everything" you say I said, is not "true"? Am I "right" about everything? No. Absolutely not. However, Mormonism is the one thing I know more than most other topics, after almost a lifetime of LIVING it, BELIEVING it, STUDYING it, PRAYING about it, etc.
Even then, I may be mistaken on some LDS point or another. Would I be expected to know the truth unless it is specifically pointed out?
42apostate 1 month ago
@42apostate
I'm only trying to defend what I believe in so much and what others are trying to discredit. I'm not here to fight with anyone.
I'm not trying to discredit Shawn or anyone on purpose but I'm not the one posting this kind of videos. I'm just defending my faith.
I believe that even if all were a lie, it was still a good thing because it still invites people to come to God and do good and for me that is enough. BUT I know that in fact all of it is true.
everafter0123 1 month ago
@everafter0123
Even the most ardent critic of Mormonism will concede that there is good in Mormonism.
And that "good" is emphasized (maybe OVER emphasized) in all LDS based writings, testimonies, and in church meetings--to the EXCLUSION of a mountain of not so inspirational events. We are simply saying that ignoring those events does a diservice to members who deserve to know the full, unenhanced truth.
1 example is the fact that Joseph (the martyr) shot 3 people at Carthage.
42apostate 1 month ago
@42apostate Same Goes For you Buddy!! So are you Truly Christian then?? What do you think makes a person a Christian. I dont mean to cause contention so sorry if it seems that way. All i want to do is to tell people the truth about the LDS Church.
1 example: your completely right about Joseph Smith shooting 3 people at Carthage............. when an agree mob of 200 men with painted faces stormed the jail shooting at him with every intention of killing him.
dkp121890 1 month ago
@dkp121890
If all you want to do is tell people the truth about Mormonism I suggest you get some of your material from some source other than the ETREMELY BIASED Mormon Church.
If I wanted to find out the truth behind ENRON would I be foolish enough to go to ENRON alone to get it? HELL NO!
Re: Joe and Carthage.
Yes and LDS does a great job of telling the story exactly as you just did. Trouble is there's a LOT MORE to the story than one EVER hears about from Mormonism.
42apostate 1 month ago
@42apostate All history is biased no matter what it is written in favor of the one writing it. I could say that the ones opposing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are EXTREMELY BIASED and i would be right. I have tried to check both accounts and both say they same thing happened. around 200 men with painted faces stormed Carthage and killed the prophet. But if there is something im missed please show me.
dkp121890 1 month ago
@dkp121890
"Both accounts"?
Then list for us the "opposing" books you read. I will have read a few of the same ones and I will quiz you on their content as a test to see if you are bullshitting me as I believe you are--a common LDS ploy. Lyin' fer da lard.
42apostate 1 month ago
@dkp121890
If "both accounts" say the same things, what exactly is your complaint??
This is not true. The opposing accounts go into the fact that Joe shot 3 people according to an EYE WITNESS who was there. 50+ active years as LDS and I was NEVER, EVER told this fact in ANY lesson manual, sac meeting talks General Conf., BYU religion classes, Seminary, Institute, YOU NAME IT. I was in those classes as either a student or instructor and NEVER heard of such a thing.
42apostate 1 month ago
@42apostate Im not complaining at all cause i know im right and i will show you :) By "Both accounts" i mean the LDS account and the non-LDS account of the killing of Joseph Smith at Carthage jail specifically. Both accounts are generally the same other than small details like how many bullets the prophet was able to fire from his pepper box pistol. I think its strange that you say you have never heard this from the LDS account cause i have always know this and i have seen the
dkp121890 1 month ago
@42apostate actual pistol that he used in the Church history museum in salt lake city. The Church does not try to keep this a secret.
To disprove your accusation of this being "a common LDS ploy" and prove that i am not lying i will give the source for the LDS account first and a quote from it and compare it to a Non-LDS account.
dkp121890 1 month ago
@42apostate (lds org/ensign/1994/06/martyrdom-at-carthage?lang=eng&query=carthage+jail) "...pulled the pepperbox from his pocket, and, reaching around the door casing, fired blindly into the hallway. He snapped all six shots. Half discharged, striking three men." So here we see that the Church does include the fact that he shot 3 men in self defense. Which really isnt as bad as you make it out to be. you yourself said you would do the same thing in his situation.
dkp121890 1 month ago
@dkp121890
So now the question begs to be asked: what's the date on the Ensign article? Is that the earliest article? Remember too. Not every Mormon subscribes to Ensign. There have been MANY LDS lesson manuals dealing with Joe's death. NONE of them told of him shooting 3 people. On the other hand, we critics have been SCREAMING this fact for 50 years and have been called "liars" and "Satan's pawns", etc. by the LDS faithful the entire time.
42apostate 1 month ago
@dkp121890
WE are the ones that forced the issue on this Carthage story and the mobbers shot by Joe. If WE hadn't caused a fuss about it, it would likely have NEVER been admitted to by LDS Inc.--at least publically. The same happened with polygamy and LDS/BoM racism--and now LDS homophobia.
It's ALWAYS been LDS POLICY to say NOTHING that wasn't totally "faith promoting". If the whole story of Carthage had been known by the majority of LDS Joe would never been called a "martyr".
42apostate 1 month ago
@42apostate Here is a Non-LDS account of what happened. (en wikipedia org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.) "Smith used a small pepper-box pistol that Cyrus Wheelock had given him when Wheelock had visited the jail earlier that day.Three of the six barrels misfired,but the other three shots injured at least three of the attackers."
The only difference in the accounts is the the use of misfired instead of discharged.
dkp121890 1 month ago
@dkp121890
Beg to differ.
"Cyrus Wheelock" a personal friend of Richards, SMUGGLED the gun in, was not mentioned in your account.
Other facts not stated is that in LDS tours of Carthage, Joseph shooting 3 people IS TO THIS DAY not mentioned. An LDS friend went on this tour just 6 months ago and I asked him if either the six-shooter or Joseph shooting 3 people was mentioned. His reaction was, "WHAT?!" He'd never heard of it--and he, like me, is 60 +!
I had to show him the PROOF!!
42apostate 1 month ago
@dkp121890
@dkp121890
Does the LDS Church have a PUBLIC video giving the WHOLE Carthage story?--a YouTube video? If not, WHY NOT?--given that the Church is so open and honest about it's history??
Type in YT search box "The UNtold Story of Joseph's Death" by Bill McKeever. Do the facts contained in this vid contradict the LDS version?
I celebrate the Ensign story. It is at least a start toward LDS Inc becoming more forthright in it's treatment of other not-so-well known facts.
42apostate 1 month ago
@dkp121890
Mountain Meadows Massacre is another event, quietly held, since 1857, with the Brigham Yopung generated story (LIE), blaming it on "THE INDIANS DID IT".
LDS critics blew the phony doors off THAT myth in 1950 with J Brooks expose'.
Pretty sad when one has to go to WIKI for the REAL details...
Critics caused the Church to admit it's own members were culpable--AND to apologise to Francher descendants--sort of...
42apostate 1 month ago
@42apostate A fun little side note from this same website says "There have been conflicting reports about to what extent members of the mob were injured during the attack, and whether any of them were killed" So we see that the two accounts of the prophet shooting 3 men are generally the same.
this isnt really the argument though is it? the original argument was whether joseph smith can be considered a martyr. the answer is yes!! i give examples in the comments bellow.
dkp121890 1 month ago
@dkp121890
Actually, those "conflicting reports" were generated by LDS do-gooders, intended to create doubt about ALL the details--doing as Elder Oaks demanded: "Don't criticize our leaders--even if they are wrong".
Your own prophet said that it was reported to him that 2 of the 3 mobbers shot had subsequently died of their wounds. Even I would take the word of your own prophet (AND EYEWITNESS) to the events! You seem reluctant--and would rather listen to others who WERE NOT THERE.
42apostate 1 month ago
@42apostate I agree that one should research both sides before jumping to conclusions. I have tried my best to do that and every time the side of the LDS Church wins. It seems to me that all the anti-mormon stuff out there are either complete lies, manipulation of words, misunderstandings or uneducated accusations. whether its biblical accusations, false prophecies or what ever the Church always has explanations.
dkp121890 1 month ago
@42apostate So I think him shooting those 3 men is really justified. Unless what your saying is that its evil to defend your own life from an ANGRY MOB OF 200 MEN WITH GUNS trying to send bullets through your body. I dont see how this is really an argument. Wouldnt you do the same thing if you were in Joseph Smiths position? I know i would!
dkp121890 1 month ago
@dkp121890
I agree!
In fact, if I were Joe and I had an AK47 and plenty of ammo I'd have shot all 200 of the bastards. But after doing that, if any shitheads tried to call me a "martyr", I'd come back from the dead and threaten to shoot them too.
No, it's not evil to defend. It's just not Christ-like. He could have vaporized his enemies--but didn't. HE was a REAL Martyr, as was Paul and Peter and the rest. Did they fight back? Not that we read about...
42apostate 1 month ago
@42apostate Definition of Martyr: "a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause." So yeah by definition Joseph Smith was a Martyr. Throughout his entire life he suffered persecution for his beliefs and was unjustly imprisoned and killed because of it. He never denied what he believed. Being a Martyr doesn't mean you willfully subject yourself to death. It means you unwaveringly stand for what you believe in the face of death.
dkp121890 1 month ago
@42apostate Im confused. If its not evil but also not Christ-like then what is it?
I agree that Christ, Paul, Peter and all the apostles were martyrs but your wrong on when you say they didnt fight back. Christ took a wip and drove the people who were buying and selling things in the temple out of the temple. when Judas and the soldiers came for Christ in the Gethsemane to take him to be crucified peter cut one of their ears off. So they did fight and stand for what they believed
dkp121890 1 month ago
@dkp121890
Christ and the whip and Christ being tortured and murdered are two separate events and no connection to each other. Apples and oranges. You only mention the whip incident to detract from the topic, ie. blow smoke.
When these REAL martyrs were facing torture and death is what we were talking about. Did they fight back AT THAT TIME?? No--according to the record.
42apostate 1 month ago
dkp121890
In order for the definition of "martyr" to work for Joe, you must expand the meaning. When you do so you must INCLUDE millions upon millions of men/women who died in battle (BOTH SIDES) who died for their beliefs (their brand of religion/god/political beliefs. HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS have so perished, thereby DILUTING the true meaning of the word as one who died for beliefs WITHOUT fighting back or harming anyone.
Joe as a martyr is a fairytale straight out of Disneyland...
42apostate 1 month ago
@42apostate It seems to me that you are just trying to redefine the meaning of martyr to support your argument. Cause In these Definition of the read it doesn't say that they cant fight back.
Martyr: 1"One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle." 2 "a person who suffers greatly or dies for a cause, belief, etc."
3 "one who suffers for the sake of principle" ( thefreedictionary com/martyr)
dkp121890 1 month ago
@42apostate Martyr: 1"A person who is put to death or suffers on behalf of a cause" 2 "A person who under goes severe or constant suffering." (Random House Webster's Dictionary) So again, whether you like it or not, by definition Joseph Smith was a martyr. Just because there have been millions of people who have died for a belief or cause does not dilute the meaning of the word. Those people are martyrs also.
dkp121890 1 month ago
@42apostate just because you dont believe in joseph smiths cause or belief doesnt mean he was not a martyr. An example: Muhammad founded the Muslim religion and was killed for it. now i dont believe the muslim religion to be the true religion but that doesnt mean he was not a martyr for the cause. there have been plenty of martyrs.
dkp121890 1 month ago
@42apostate Is a a martyr some unattainable position such as a Jedi Master that a lot of people can't fit the description. If you, Apostate, die for your cause of anti-Mormonism then you would be a martyr for the anti-Mormonism cause. your being retarded.
HungGarEarthBender 1 month ago
@HungGarEarthBender
Yes, I would be--but not likely if I fought my attackers and either killed or injured them.
Jesus was the ultimate "martyr". How would humans even hope to join Christ in that category? What criteria must be met to join Him as a martyr? The ONLY answer is to go "like a lamb to the slaughter". It's OBVIVOUS Joseph Smith DID NOT go "as a lamb". He went (understandably) fighting tooth and nail to save himself, ultimately shooting 3 people in the process.
42apostate 1 month ago
@42apostate No i mentioned the whip incident and peter cutting of the ear of the guard as an example of them fighting, standing up for and protecting what they believed in.
I agree that they were martyrs and the record may not say that they fought back but i dont think that it says they didnt fight back either. I might be mistaken and if i am please show me where it says that they willingly subjected themselves to death.
dkp121890 1 month ago
@dkp121890
LOL!!
LMAO!!
Peter (you really ought to read the story before mentioning it here!) was REPRIMANDED for the "ear" incident.
You are desperately attempting to use wild and non related incidents to bolster YOUR faith/story!
Did Jesus or ANY of his followers fight back? Some may have but I'll bet money that those who did were NEVER referred to as "martyrs".
Jesus and those of his followers were THE GO-TO EXAMPLES of who qualifies (in the true sense) to be called a martyr.
42apostate 1 month ago
@dkp121890
You are completely free to twist and turn and make up any kind of story or excuse so you can include ol' Joe to your billion-man list of martyrs, But, I ain't buyin' it--and won't comment further.
This is the same brick wall I'd come up against when trying to show Mormons that Joe shot 3 people at Carthage---AND drank wine---AND had a smoke...
The denials are astonishing--and that in a church that CLAIMS honesty as a virtue...
42apostate 1 month ago
@42apostate So what! Even if he did shoot 3 people, he still a man fighting for his life. Abraham killed, Moses wiped out an army, One person in the Bible even prayed that God would stop the sun in the sky just so he could continued massacring his enemies in broad daylight with out having to wait ill the next day.
As far as him using tobbaco. That is a common part of Church History. Science didn't know it was bad in that time. Then he prayed and asked God and received the commandment to stop use
HungGarEarthBender 1 month ago
@HungGarEarthBender
That is a pile of POOP!
Joseph got that so called "revelation" (D&C Sec. 89), called the Word of Wisdom, in 1833 (Feb 27), ELEVEN YEARS BEFORE Carthage.
You might be able to get these made-up, BS "facts" unnoticed past Evangelicals, but you can't bullsh** me.
You ought to be ashamed with your "lyin fer da lard".
42apostate 1 month ago
@HungGarEarthBender
My point exactly!
Have you ever heard of Moses or Abraham being referred to as Martyrs?
42apostate 1 month ago
The Word of Wisdom came forth because of the desire Emma Smith not to have to clean up (Jacob 4:14) It was adapted to the capacity of the weak because it is not a commandment! see D&C 89:2
johnjerdon 2 weeks ago
Many section headers in the D&C reveal that they were not given by command of God but because of the desires of the members. D&C 5 "at the request of Martin Harris" Sec. 8-"desired to be".
johnjerdon 2 weeks ago
The shedding of blood at Carthage & Mountain Meadows can never be justified even by Mormons (Ether 8:19). I do not condemn them, their own scriptures do! Who am I to judge? (Matt. 7:1-5)
johnjerdon 2 weeks ago
@johnjerdon
If you believe in God and he gave you a brain as well as the command to beware of false prophets, then you have EVERY RIGHT to judge such things...
42apostate 2 weeks ago
@42apostate Even if they didnt fight back it doesnt mean that joseph smith was not a martyr. How do you think it does?
dkp121890 1 month ago
@dkp121890
I've explained it as much as I'm going to...
42apostate 1 month ago
@dkp121890
You are free to call JosephsMYTH anything your little heart desires. In keeping with that same right, I'll continue to call him a CON ARTIST.
42apostate 1 month ago
@42apostate If they didnt they wouldnt be martyrs.
dkp121890 1 month ago
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@dkp121890
"If they didnt they wouldnt be martyrs."
"Didn't" what??
Can you rephrase, as it makes no sense.
(didn't die?) (didn't fight back?)
Last comment:
If robbed a bank so I could feed my family but I was killed in the attempt, shot to death by a "mob" of bank guards, and my wife called me a martyr for my belief in preserving my family, wolud I qualify as a martyr that people should honor?
IOW. Where do you draw the line?
Anyone who makes the claim automatically qualifies?
42apostate 1 month ago
there is plenty of evidence all around the world that talks about the historical factor of the book of mormon. get your facts right kriftene.
ehatm11 2 months ago
@ehatm11 Adults need to deal with reality. Give me references that prove the existence of Book of Mormon sites that are as incontrovertible as the reality of Jerusalem, Egypt, the Jordan River, etc. Is this why the Harry Potter series, video games, etc are so popular with Mormons, that they were raised to believe in fantasy?
eeikman 2 months ago
@eeikman Here's your "references": Moroni 10:4-5. Of course, you won't lower yourself to actually reading the Book of Mormon, cover-to-cover, then praying sincerely about it, which is why you will continue--as the Bible says, "kicking against the pricks". (Acts 9:5)
JediLDS 1 month ago
@JediLDS When has God ever said to use our feelings to test if something is true or not (Jeremiah 17:9)? Acts 17 tells us how to test if something is true or not, we are to be like the Bereans. Who is the one that is rebelling against God (kicking against the pricks) my friend? God wants you to know the truth yet you keep the blinders of Mormonism there to cloud the truth. I pray God has not hardened your heart my friend.
Exodus314IAM 1 month ago
@Exodus314IAM Praying sincerely for the truth of something is not a matter of "feelings", just as a witness from the Holy Ghost not a mere "feeling". Moroni 10:4-5 is a PROMISE. I put that promise to the test--as have millions of other LDS--and it WORKS. Very simple, actually. All one needs is the faith that God is not deceptive and will not allow Satan to answer the prayer of a humble person who is doing nothing more than seeking the truth. Apparently, that is a concept you don't understand.
JediLDS 1 month ago
@JediLDS Get real, Jedi. Many people pray about the book and feel NOTHING. However, Mormons pressure people to pray OVER and OVER again until they agree. You only accept one answer to this test. Anything other than "Yes, it's all true", and you blame the person for not being sincere, honest, etc.
Nepthu 1 month ago
@Nepthu For some, the answer does take time to come. I can't speak for many others, but for me, I knew right away.
JediLDS 1 month ago
@JediLDS
"...knew right away"?
An excellent example of gullibility...
42apostate 1 month ago
@Nepthu ... "However, Mormons pressure people to pray OVER and OVER again until they agree. "
No, we don't. We do encourage them to keep trying. And we accept on answer because their only IS one answer.
JediLDS 1 month ago
@JediLDS You said, " we accept on answer because their only IS one answer. "
Oh, so you admit you stack the deck against people. Well, thanks for being honest. And you have no idea the type of pressure you put on people. You're so engrossed in your beliefs you can't see any other perspective.
Nepthu 1 month ago
@Nepthu Are you claiming to be a personal victim of this intense pressure?
JediLDS 1 month ago
@JediLDS I'm claiming that you ask people questions but don't really care what their concerns are. Your name is perfect because most of Mormonism is like dealing with a Jedi mind trick.
Nepthu 1 month ago
@Nepthu Generally, their concerns are whether the Book of Mormon is true or not. No one forces them to join the church. They do it of their own free will.
JediLDS 1 month ago
@JediLDS You're correct. People join the church of their own free will, mostly because they don't know what they're getting into. No one tells them that the Book of Mormon doesn't match up with most Mormon beliefs.
Nepthu 1 month ago
@JediLDS Polygamist prick lol
liamlloyd77 1 month ago
@liamlloyd77 Yet another example of Christian love, I suppose?
JediLDS 1 month ago
@JediLDS I am not a Christian, but neither are you. You are a Mormon
liamlloyd77 1 month ago
@liamlloyd77 God knows who and what I am. I'm happy with that. I respect your right to have a personal opinion about me, however.
JediLDS 1 month ago
@JediLDS
No, YOU DO NOT "respect (y)our right to have a personal opinion".
The mere fact that you visit "anti" sites like this, and blow your mouth off, is the proof...
If you TRULY had respect, you wouldn't be here...
You've GOT to get over this ubiquitous LDS falsity--that it's okay to "lie fer da lard".
42apostate 1 month ago
@eeikman on youtube look up "pt 1, New World evidence for The Book of Mormon"
Then there is fairlds com they only use historical accounts and scientific findinds
ancientamerica org
dkp121890 1 month ago
@ehatm11 IT IS SO TRUE!!! you should subscribe to fairldsorg channel. look up "More Proof for reformed Egyptian" its really interesting!
dkp121890 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ehatm11 on youtube look up "pt 1, New World evidence for The Book of Mormon"
Then there is fairlds com they only use historical accounts and scientific findinds
ancientamerica org
dkp121890 1 month ago
dude you're an idiot. this guys video is taken out of complete context. read the whole talk, not just the little bit that you think is wrong. he's an apostle of the lord, you think he'd say something wrong about the church... think again. i am not a mormon, and i already know that your full of shit!
ehatm11 2 months ago
You can invite a friend to read the
Book of Mormon. Explain that it is not
a novel or a history book. It is another
testament of Jesus Christ. Its very purpose is “to the convincing that Jesus is the Christ, the
Eternal God, manifesting himself unto
all nations.”
What he means is that we shouldn't just look at it like a history text book, but a spiritual guide just as when we think of the Bible we dont think of it as a History text book though it is. We take it as the word of God.
HungGarEarthBender 2 months ago
@HungGarEarthBender
Are you attempting to put words in the mouth of your own apostle?
No matter HOW you spin it the BoM IS A HISTORY BOOK (IF it were actually true--it's not). The historical aspects/claims found in the BoM are what condemn the thing.
Denying that it purports to be an historical report is pretty lame--tho it IS YOUR ONLY OUT.
It has always been touted (and sold to investigators) as "the history (spiritual AND secular!) of a group of Old Test. Isrealites."
42apostate 1 month ago
@42apostate I didn't say that it wasn't a history book. I said that it wasn't to be treated only as such. read before you judge Apostate. That goes for this comment and the Book of Mormon itself.
HungGarEarthBender 1 month ago
@HungGarEarthBender
SO.
Where did WE say that the BoM SHOULD be treated "ONLY" as a history??
42apostate 1 month ago
@HungGarEarthBender
WELL??
42apostate 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@HungGarEarthBender
WELL??
I WAS LDS--and read the BoM around 8 times--cover to cover. I also had 2 Book a Marmin classes at BYU.
As an active Mormon, I also used BoM references HUNDREDS of times in talks and in lesson material.
So quit using the tired lie that I should read it before "judging" it.
I DID read it, giving me the RIGHT to judge it--and my judgement is that it is a book of FICTION!
42apostate 1 week ago
I am not mad at anyone. I like to follow the teachings of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who taught us to love our enemies. It matters not who is right or wrong on this earth.We will know all in the next. All we need to know now is love your brother as you love yourself. If we followed that one commandment there would be no need for any religion.
wootly55 2 months ago
The correct word is history and not historical. When you quote somebody, get the quote right. Don't twist the meanings to suit your own ends. Honesty is the best policy.
dradamh 2 months ago