"Why Zionism Has Become a Dirty Word" at the 92nd Street Y, 3/24/09

[72group4]

Why is Zionism become a dirty word? Because in its larger, biblical context, its a very bad idea based upon a ludicrous book of fairytails....moderator aside...the arguments on display here are abysmal.

[Kurtlane]

Abe Foxman says lots of strange things.

There have been mass rallies in support of Israel in Copenhagen, Paris, London, Rome, and all over the U.S. Rallies attended by both Jews and gentiles.There is still plenty of support for Israel and Zionism among ordinary people. I've seen young women wearing "I am a Zionist" t-shirts. Not in 1975, just recently, .

It is the Jewish leaders that have lost their way, but that's a different problem.

(cont.)

[Kurtlane]

Anti-Zionists are preswent not only on the left. Neo-Nazis an the KuKluxKlan are very anti-Zionist.

No, Israel didn't do in 2009 in Gaza what it had done in 1967. Israel didn't return to Gaza. Israel didn't take over Hamas. Arabs didn't run to Egypt, thinking Jews will massacre them. Israel wasn't a winner.

And the world loves a winner. This is the difference!

(cont.)

[Kurtlane]

War for Independence, 1957 war, 6-day war, Yom Kippur war, raid on Entebbe, raid on Osirak - these were all clear victories!

And now?

The respect for Israel went down and very quickly disappeared in 1993, with the "Oslo peace process." I remember it all.

I think there were 12 dead in that "school" attack. 9 of them were terrorists who'd just launched a missile at Israel.

(cont.)

[Kurtlane]

Sure the world media can affor to have a fit about every alleged "Israeli attrocity," because there are so few. They cannot have fits about the attoricities Assad is currently doing in Syria, because there are so many.

One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic. Very important lesson for Israel.

(cont.)

[Kurtlane]

But Foxman is right on one point: we are not dealing with rational things. We are dealing with propaganda, appeals to emotions, linguistic tricks, poor logic, empty rhetoric, gimmicks, demonization, paranoia, bigotry, hatred for the sake of hatred - all the usual devices of Jew-haters.

What chance does logic, reason and good sense against this barrage?

None. And this is why we are where we are.

(cont.)

[Kurtlane]

Golda Meir's statement "we might forgive them for killing our children, but we'll never forgive them for forcing us to kill theirs" is a stupid and ugly phrase. I would never forgive anyone for deliberately killing my children. I would certainly rather kill scores of someone else's children than allow my child to be killed. And I'd not have any moral qualms about it. And I think this is a reaction of any normal human being.

(cont.)

[Kurtlane]

Golda Meir's other phrase, "Peace will come when Arab mothers love their children more than they hate ours" is also stupid. Golda Meir was born in the same place I was: Kiev, Ukraine. So how come she doesn't understand the core of Jew-hatred: utterly irrational disgust. Not even hatred, but disgust. The same disgust one has for cockroaches and lice.

What is the cure for that? A bullet in the brain. There is no other cure. One cannot convince a Jew-hater not to be a Jew-hater.

[Kurtlane]

"I would advise them [Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton] to take the hippocratic oath, 'Do no harm."

And I would advise them to take the anti-hypocritical oath, "Do not lie." Say openly that the goals of PAlestinian leaders, whether Hamas or Fatah or anyone else, as well as Palestinian public at large, is to destroy the State of Israel and exterminate 6 million Jews living there. And that therefore all "peace processes" and "roadmaps to peace" are at best self-deception.

(cont.)

[Kurtlane]

These are smart people. But they have the typical Jewish disease: believing in fairy tales, imaginary creatures (Palestinian leader who will teach to love one's children more than you hate your enemy) buying into most ridiculous and obvious deceptions (Saudi proposal, which doesn't openly speak of destroying Israel but leads to it anyway)

(cont.)

[Kurtlane]

and perceiving people better than they really are ("99% of Palestinian mothers love their chjildren more than they hate Israelis" - no, they don't "We are not confronting this wall-to-wall culture of hate" - yes we are, "Nazi Germany was a cvulture in hte grasp of evil people" - right, blame it all on Hitler alone, the rest were just following orders (sarcasm)).

They are still liberals at heart. And that's the problem.

[Uncle99B]

@Kurtlane. Jesus Christ, Kurtlane. R U going to post every single piece of zionist propaganda. We have all heard it many times before. And it is all lies. Give it a rest.

[Kurtlane]

Zionism means that Jewish people are normal human beings.

What is wrong with that? HOw could such a thing become a dirty word?

It's the same thing as always: Decent people lost. Jew-haters won.

[lozoft9]

Islamists = evil

Zionists = evil

Christian political right = evil

Hindutva = evil

What do they all have in common? THEY AREN'T REAL RELIGION! they are just political movements. Religion + Politics = EVIL!!!

[HoodwinkedbyanAngel]

instead of wearing suits they should have giant ONE WAY signs

```

strapped to their bodys ~

```

[mrnawanshehr]

Israel=Evil

Zionists=Evils

[thewhitemosquito]

Odd, everywhere the jews go they don't seem to be liked.

[Meskiagkasher]

@thewhitemosquito and yet they claim it is everybody else's fault.

[1famekouby]

Mindless drible.

Couldn't care less if Zionism died off, it's a f*cking political movement, all political movements could just wither up and die and I'd be a happy human being.

[gamerunknown]

Why does the US care about Israel? Because its taxpayers have paid $100b in aid to Israel since its inception.

Why does the world care about Israel? Because frequently the US and Israel (along with the Marshall islands and Micronesia) are the sole opponents to world consensus.

Why do Arab countries care about Israel? Because the Quran states that Jews are pigs and to slaughter transgressors wherever they find them.

Why do Christians support Israel? A prophecy from Jesus: Jews in Jerusalem.

[Falstaff85]

Gah, and look how much it cost them to even say the word 'Palestinian'. Anybody who is not a total ignoramus knows that Israel didn't 'get out of the occupation business'; the occupation is deeper and more intense in the West Bank, while Israel reduces the people of Gaza to the rink of starvation through their illegal blockade.

[Falstaff85]

Sheesh. If these are the geniuses running the Zionist movement, it's hard to believe the movement is collapsing.

Last I checked, it was the Palestinians, Muslims and Arabs who were constantly demonized and marginalized in Congress and in the media. Persecution complex much?

And WTF is up with that guy's wig?

[ttiger5050]

These four blow hards can spend over an hour talking about Zionism and not mention a word about the muderous treatment of Palestinians and the dropping of white phosphorous bombs on school children (and considered a WMD by the Geneva Convention) and they try to depict THEMSELVES as victims. Notice how Abe can't say anything without injecting the words anti semite or bigot. I wonder if he considers the dreadful treatment of Palestinians by the IDF as bigotry or racism. Guess not.

[ttiger5050]

There is a DOCUMENTARY called 'DEFAMATION" that was made by a young Jewish filmaker and it is a film that Mr Foxman would rather have NOONE SEE. It exposes the ADL for what it really is...an organization that spends very little time defending hate crimes (because there are not enough being committed) but spends time flying all over the globe (especially Eastern Europe) and they shake down governments for money and threaten to call them anti semites if they don't. Abe Foxman is a filthy thug liar

[ttiger5050]

Mr Foxman, you go around scolding white (overwhelmingly non-Jewish) Americans for their ethnocentrism in what's become the most integrated, tolerant and multi-racial nation in human history. Racism have become truly taboo for ordinary, white Americans. If Americans were half as racist as you claim, they'd be following Israel's example and enacting laws to manage their ethnic future. Only it's not happening. US borders remain open as Israel builds a "security fence" bigger than the Berlin Wall.

[ttiger5050]

Abe Foxman is only concerned about hate speech against Jews. He of course completely ignores the fact that there is institutionalized hatred against the Palestinian people and the Arabs by the Jews in Israel and he does nothing to defend the hate crimes against white people by blacks on a daily basis.

[ttiger5050]

Most Zionists are comfortable with Israel's harsh treatment of native non-Jews in Palestine. What's the proper course of action for America? We Americans of all races are taxed to subsidize the Zionist battle against non-Jews in Palestine. Is this compatible with fighting racism? On a related subject, should we invade Iran to make Israel safer?. But I think that it's time that you spoke out against the most virulent forms of Jewish racism that can no longer be ignored.

[iraaus]

You are so stupid, Palestinians are victim of Zionist apartheid system, what part of what you are doing that is so wrong that you don't understand, there is no comparison and stop playing the victim again and have a good look at what you do that has created this situation!

[perrik7]

Zionist = Jew that don't like oven

[wtfbollos]

this tragic and disastrous east european "jewish" project in palestine will soon fail..and not a SECOND too soon. praying on the hopes of the diaspora, britain gave birth to this nightmare and america has kept this beast alive ever since. the day palestine can be left alone to recover from the trauma of a brutal colonial raping is the day humanity can celebrate. maybe it will take 1,000 years for the palestinians to forgive us for what we have done to their world..i don't know..

[wtfbollos]

ZIONIST PIGS!

[BorinquenTechTV]

zionist is pure evil ,period

[flyhead2]

The narcissism, the self-righteousness, the heresy, the endless, tireless lies, the intimidation, the defamation, the bigotry and the slaughter.These are just some of the reasons many Jews hate Zionism, and its the same for many gentiles.

Foxman, you are simply grotesque in your deceptions.

[edanhollombe]

911truthseeker- so whats your solution, kill the jews?

NAzi scum

[xxashyy]

I hear a lot of Jewish self righteousness here in this discussion and no REAL objective analysis on why people around the world object to how they treat the Palestinians on a daily basis.

[xxashyy]

I'm sure the the South African whites also said. "Why is the world focused on us 'defending" ourselves against the blacks. Blacks are killing each other in most parts of Africa each day! Why focus on us!" Not so good an argument of Israel's treatment Abe.

[911truthseekers]

I believe Zionist Companies and Zionist people with Dual citizenships in the government that own the banks and the Federal RESERVE are responsible for 9/11!

[grahambbb]

These people just don't get it. They deny their occupation of Gaza and their "Warsaw Ghettoisation" of the West Bank. I was once a strong supporter of the State of Israel but now see it as the main cause of strife in the World.

Israel hs blown it completely!!.

[slusk22]

@grahambbb when the Jews evacuated gaza, some very rich dude paid the jews for all the greenhouses which they had established in gaza so that the palestinians would be able to make a living. This man paid millions for these greenhouse. What did the palestinians do, they went in the destroyed every last greenhouse and they wonder why they have nothing, Quit blaming the Jews, for the palestinians having nothing

[ttiger5050]

@slusk22

WOW..So where it not for the Palestinians destroying the greenhouses 'given to them by some rich dude" the Palestinians would be so much better off. The fact that the filthy Jews have built an apartheid wall to divide the Palestinians from the filthy Jews has nothing to do with their appalling living conditions. You can absolutely blame the Jews. And everyone hates how the Jews lie and deceive people about what is going on. The IDF MURDER babies with illegal WMD's. That is all u need

[muziquelle]

wow 4 men. awesome... no Bekah Wolf? Anna Baltzer? there ARE Jewish women out there, believe it or not!

[forestskog]

Well Abraham Foxman is such a whiney bitch he counts as two women

[FamilyGuyRocks89]

@forestskog Abraham Foxman isn't a whiney bitch. Now, Norman Finkelstein -- that's a REAL whiney bitch.

[Garubolas]

Rotten zionists are a hindrance to world peace

[yavanna1969]

Mr bad wig at the beginning speaks of one sided debates against the israeli's and lack of debate regarding pal' rocket use. Nukes against sticks, stones not one sided. /sigh - couldnt watch this "debate" beyond the 5 minute introduction....

[bigsoundz]

The ADL is an anti-American group, and has engaged in numerous crimes in the US, including spying for Israel. The ADL is also strongly linked to Alan Dershowitz (a propagandist for Israel, plagarist, and pathological liar).

[hazydavey]

Start with definitions.

Zionism means different things to different people - especially to non-Zionists. For some it's a euphamism for Jews. For others it refers to Israelis. For others still, it refers to aggressive policies advocated by certain Israelis.

When used by critics it tends to be misued for rhetorical purposes. When someone attacks "Zionists" - red flags should go up. Ask them what they mean by the term. You'll find that they refuse to be pinned down in that way. Telling.

[addan76]

Zionist is dirty nazy mother fuckers who hate humanity and make this world crazy

[chaosshead]

congratulations: very good definition, asshole.

[newfoundart]

This is like watching Fox News; only those with as weak an understanding of rhetorical device as these idiots could take such a display seriously - lost in their own head-game. One sure sign of being in denial is when discovery is avoided by babbling endlessly on anecdotal evidence of others' perceptions.

[at8933]

Arabs are not anti semetic we are anti evil. A group of people taking somebody's land and destroying their villages and removing them from their land is what arabs are against. If it were the chinese that came to palestine we would hate the chinese. I think jews should go back to where they came from and that is europe, south america, and russia.

[amir1403]

@at8933

before the Jews were in Europe what was there land??

before Israel there was no Palestine people they came from Syria end Egypt

the Palestine people are the big lie of ever.

The land of Israel belong to the JEW!

go to Rome and see Titus gate "Titus' triumph after the First Jewish-Roman War was celebrated with the Arch of Titus in Rome, which shows the treasures taken from the Temple in Jerusalem, including the Menorah and the Trumpets of Jericho"

[amir1403]

before the Jews were in Europe what was there land??

before Israel there was no Palestine people they came from Syria end Egypt

the Palestine people are the big lie of ever.

The land of Israel belong to the JEW!

go to Rome and see Titus gate "Titus' triumph after the First Jewish-Roman War was celebrated with the Arch of Titus in Rome, which shows the treasures taken from the Temple in Jerusalem, including the Menorah and the Trumpets of Jericho"

[nevskixx]

There is a clear distinction between criticism of Israel(Israel is recognised) and demonising (not recognised)it. Those who demonise Israel often use this issue as a shield accusing those who accuse them of antisemitism of censuring them for excercising their right to criticise( free speech).

[benz3000]

i would say the majority of jews are zionists. i know this because i am a zionist jew in a big jewish community. Im sure the majority would prefer a multiethnic democracy and have dun for hundreds of years but bcos of the events in spain, nazi germany etc they feel they need to be among their own to escape the pure hatred directed towards them. however despite this they still allow arabs to be represented in the knesset and have arab and christian communities in the country as well.

[adamndirtyshame]

regarding zionism as a dirty word, i feel the atrocious policies of the israeli state are responsible. yes, often times righteous indignation can take a dangerous turn towards anti-semitism, which is why its so important for critical jews to come out. for all the closet zionist jews out there, how many closet anti-zionist jews do you think there are? i feel a lot more jewish young folk today are willing to embrace a multiethnic democracy than a state with separate privileges for jews.

[adamndirtyshame]

i havent finished the video yet (will do so soon) but all the panelists seem to be making the dangerous assumption that all jews are zionists. let's not forget that this is the same association anti-semites make to justify their attacks. it is also untrue, which i can personally attest to as someone who is both jewish and opposed to zionism. since zionism's beginning there has been debate on it within the jewish community, which i think might perhaps be a more interesting topic for debate.

[churchmn]

Zionism isn't part of Judaism. The Jewish religion is one of the oldest religions on the planet, but protocols of Zionism were only developed in the late 1800s. How this relates to the conflicts in Israel is another story, but the religion itself should not be condemned because of the political agendas of Zionism. They are NOT the same.

[gkraychik]

Zionism and contemporary Judaism are distinct, but strongly connected. Your mentioning of the "protocols of zion" is just anti-semitic garbage. Uh oh! Watch out, the jewish boogeypersons are behind every single ill off the world! The Zionists are out there to destroy you! Get real....

[churchmn]

So the ancient Jews were all Zionists?: I don't think so! And as far as the protocols of Zionism are concerned, have you ever read them? In other words, do you have a clue what you're talking about?

[muziquelle]

Yea, aren't there requirements for Jews to return to the homeland?

[churchmn]

Oh, I see you mentioned "contemporary" Judaism. Well then tell me how you're so sure I'm anti-Semitic? And who are these Jewish "boogeypersons" you speak of? The Zionist movement I've experienced is just a political agenda. It wouldn't even matter to me except that it has been continually associated with a religion of beauty and peace. In case you haven't figured it out, I support Dovid Weiss of the Nuterei Karta Rabbis. Your assumptions about my comments are unfounded.

[charliebarton]

I just want to know why my tax dollars should go to a country with a better infant mortality. I want to know why both presidential candidates make promises to a lobby that puts the interests of Israel before the interests of America.

Remember the Liberty

[forestskog]

Israel is not a concern of mine. I don't wish them ill and don't demonize them. But I HAVE changed my mind esp after meeting so many Israeli soldiers. I am disgusted by their behaviour, And like many Americans I now want us to cut off support and military aid. I am disgusted at how zionists have abused - not controled - but greedily abused our political process and we are being ripped off. I will NOT have US turned into a war zone just bc we support the despicable Israeli occupation.

[slusk22]

@forestskog if you were put into the military for a minimum of 2 years, right out of highschool, to actually have to protect your family and your own land and country, you would probably have some sort of understanding of Israeli soldiers.

[cat00012000]

Right wing israelis have gone off a cliff. I feel absolutely no pity for them. They repulse me. Do Gazans commit war crimes? They have no army. Is there anything more unfair in the world? The Israelis have some inate ability to just make me furious. What is it? I think it's the way they argue unfairly. They always seem to evade the point. Am I just making this up? Why isn't more said about this?

[dgw16]

Hamas-run Gaza is on the moral level of Nazi Germany: there is zero religious tolerance, honor killings of women are common, and homosexuals fear for their lives. Jews are portrayed as the offspring of apes and pigs in Palestinian media, in the educational establishment, and in the mosques. Suicide bombers are the most respected people in Palestinian society. The moral gulf between Israel and its Arab neighbors is so vast as to be unbridgeable.

[gkraychik]

cat: You were prefer that more Jews were killed to even up the numbers, I presume? What a ridiculous perspective.

[phreakoutaston]

For heaven's sake, that supposed quote from MLK was wrong. It's been proven wrong already in reputable press and by reputable scholars. Foxman needs to be get his facts right.