Power Save 1200 Demonstration

[markbeiser]

Electrical meters measure consumption in watts, not amps.

watts = amps x volts x power factor

This device lowers the amps, but it raises the power factor in proportion, so the watts consumed remains the same.

Since the watts consumed remains the same, the heat generated by the motor is exactly the same.

This device is a scam.

[Dynetric]

This is a scam. They scam you by showing a reduction in amps. That's not power, it's current....different things with AC. This is just BS. Notice he uses an unloaded motor as a load - totally unrealistic. An unloaded motor is an inductor, not a load. It has a low power factor which the capacitors in the box increase. However, this does not save energy or increase efficiency in any way. Don't be confused by current levels. That means nothing. Power is the key and it won't change that.

[MSBWilson]

There are several things wrong with this demonstration:

1. if you leave the power saver attached and turn the load off, the current still flows through the power saver.

2. Energy meters measure watts, not amps.

3. For AC current, watts=volts x amps x power factor

4. The power saver reduces the amps and increases the power factor in the same proportion, the net result is no actual change to the watts that you pay for.

Conclusion: don't waste your money because it won't save you 1c!

[alexmiteecs]

I'm a Masters student specializing in AC power systems and distributed generation at MIT. I welcomed you to come by anytime so I can show the faculty your magic invention:

77 Massachusetts Ave

Cambridge, MA 02139

[uvman707]

@alexmiteecs The power save 1200 is not my invention. I have exposed to what the Power Save 1200 consist of. I work in the calibration lab in the Boston, MA area. I would be glad to drop by and we would be in agreement in AC circuits. My work is in electronics.

[alexmiteecs]

Adding reactive power to decrease real power for the demonstration is quite nice. I love the graphs too, it was the cherry on top of the cake. You guys get an A for imagination, but F for engineering. Why don't you guys use your engineering knowledge to solve real problems instead for scamming people?

[uvman707]

@alexmiteecs This is not imagination, it is real for sure. I have hands on experience with electricity. I have done numerous experiments with power saving devices. What's really inside that box? Motor run capacitors, nothing else. I have many motor run capacitors and done experiments with them, and I was right.

F in engineering? Think again. Go to an electrical school and learn about AC circuits. When you do find that I was right, you would have nothing else to say.

[uvman707]

@alexmiteecs I am not scamming this item. I am explaining the differences between large industrial users and homeowner. Their electric metering are different between two of these users. The power saving device can make a real difference in savings from power factor penalties for industrial users. It offers no savings to the homeowners as their metering only measures in kilowatthours, not varhours.

[drifterspe]

Don't know group. My usage has gone down every month since install. I save about 100 kwh a month @ $.11. Not allot, but screw them utility companies!

[uvman707]

@drifterspe Tell me you are an industrial user, not a homeowner.

[kirkpatrick88]

Its all a scam. You will not see a reduction in your bill for residential service on power factor correction. Your appliances already have this built in. I tried this device and it did not reduce my bill at all. My bill actually increased and I hear it induces harmonics into your electrical system. (I hear thats not a good thing). Don't do it!

[taylortownmayor]

ProTechPlumbing is correct!

[xdtrv6]

Oh god not another PF scam. In Residential you pay for "real power" kWh not "apparent power" kVAh (VAR Volts Amp Reactive), this device will not save you a red cent. And ProTechPlumbing you clearly do know what you talking about!

For the other idiots, go and get educated before you post a comments. Go ask any electrical enginner to give you a quick lesson on reactive loads. This is another SCAM.

[alexmiteecs]

@xdtrv6 I would add a small correction to your statement. Mainly that real power has units of W or kW, not kWh (this is a unit of energy). Same for apparent power. Nevertheless, you are correct in that this is a scam.

[xdtrv6]

@alexmiteecs

My apologies, you are correct, Real Power is in W, however we pay for the units of power, I should have taken more care in the wording.

[OBXSOLWIND]

Amperage and whatts are the same thing. These things do work but only on 120v. what they dont tell you is the thing draws around 3 amps waiting for somthing to do. so if your house in not an energy pig these things dont work. If you have a pool where 120v pumps run all the time it may make sense.

[uvman707]

@OBXSOLWIND Amperage and watts are not the same. Amperage is the rate of flow to the load. Wattage is calculated by multiplying voltage times amperes. The electric meter on your house only measure in watts used, not current. If you have a home with a swimming pool and pump running all the time. The power save will not make any difference on the homeowners electric bill.



[bakkoi]

If amps were the number, I would have 480 volt power to my house and cut my bill by 50% right,,,,,WRONG!  ,these will improve power factor, but to what end, since residential customers pay no charge if they have bad Power factor, only industrial and fewer commercial rate payer are charged for bad PF

by the way Watts are not amps the equation is Volts X Amps X Power Factor =WATTS a 1000 watt load at 240 volt or 480 volt is measured at 1 kilo watt hour

but the amps are 4.16 and 2.08 respectively

[FRANK101101101]

yes crankyoldyankee, power factor correction does work without a doubt and has done for all of my 20 years as an electrician, the bigger the installation the better power factor correction works especially if buying at 11kv and without a doubt essential in industry of any real size, protechplumbing, stick to the water dude you might know something about it !

ahhh watts are a function of amps and volts :) if mains amps are reduced so are the watts drawn from mains if voltage stays constant :)

[ProTechPlumbing]

"if mains amps are reduced so are the watts drawn"

Not if that amperage reduction was in the form of inductive reactance. In that case (what a PF corrector does) only volt-amps will go down with the amperage reduction, not watts(and KWA consumption).

It's pretty sad when a supposed electrician has to be given first year electrical theory lessons by a plumber............. perhaps it is you who should be rethinking careers.

[FRANK101101101]

yeah mate, this is why big industry always use PF correction, cause it does work...... perhaps you could give some electrical engineers a lesson too if you believe PF correction does not work.

As for the device in the youtube video on a domestic level i could not see the need for it as domestic customers dont buy power at 11Kv or 33Kv and do not have their own transformers, however large industrial customers do and this is where you see PF correction in use "working" everyday.

[ProTechPlumbing]

I did not say that PF correction doesn't "work". I'm saying that it will not save a residential customer any money as they are not penalized for poor PF.

Since it will not lower KWA consumption (as discussed before) and there is no poor PF penalty to try and avoid, it's pointless for a homeowner to have one installed. It will not save them any money. It will give the power company some benefit, but not the home owner. As long as every one understands that then I will agree that they "work".

[CrankyOldYankee]

Stick to PLUMBING Pro Tech Plumbing, your comment needs to be "snaked out"...

[ProTechPlumbing]

Very mature.

[CrankyOldYankee]

Exactly what dog does a plumbing contractor have in this fight? I suggest you glom on to a plumbing product that doesn't work...such as low flow showerheads or 1.5 Gal toilets. Leave Capacitance correction to the electricians who ALL are taught such theroy and practice....

[uvman707]

@CrankyOldYankee

Have you studied AC electric circuits? I have been working with electricity for 35 years. Power factor correction does work for industrial customers to avoid power factor penalties. It has no benefit for homeowners whatsoever. ProTechPlumbing is right on this subject and I agree with him 100%

[G4flying]

u must dont have a life bro .....why doest it matter if the energy saver not saving the customer no money?

[rambo440hp]

I`ll tell you what it matters some people do not want other people to be screwed ,so lieing cheating people like you cant rip them off sorry we bust your bubble

[CrankyOldYankee]

With all due respect to the nay sayers , Power Factor Correction is a very old procedure. Is there one electrician out there that will dispute that when properly sized, capacitor correction (especially in 3 phase) does not reduce total KWH's ? If this is a scam then the entire Energy Star program is as well (capacitor corrected motors)....

[ProTechPlumbing]

I never said PF correction doesn't work. I said it doesn't save residential customers any money. The POCO's meter can tell the difference between watts (what they bill you for) and volt-amps (what a PF corrector reduces, not what the POCO bills you for).

Reducing volt-amps will save commercial customers money because said users can be penalized for poor power factor.

Since resi customers will not see a reduction in watts (only volt-amps) and they are not billed for PF, it's pointless.

[ProTechPlumbing]

Watts are one thing and volt-amps are another. Any electrician that doesn't know the difference needs to go back to school.

Power factor correction is indeed old.....for commercial users. It has been used for years to avoid poor PF fees, not KWA reduction. Again, it is not for KWA reduction, it is for Penalty avoidance.

And yes, I am saying that PF correction will do nothing to reduce KWA consumption. I challenge anyone to provide a credible source that states otherwise.

[ProTechPlumbing]

Amps are not watts. You are billed for watts NOT amps or volt-amps. Go watch the video "Power-save 1200 unit scam" that I made. You see the critical difference when you measure watts NOT amps. kbchamp59 is deceiving people that are not educated in AC electrical concepts.

[CrankyOldYankee]

The meters don't lie ! Electric companies just HATE these things...

[ProTechPlumbing]

Meters don't lie but electricians do. Lets do that test with a clamp on meter that shows watts not amps. Amps are not what the power company bills you on. They bill watts over time (KWA). Watts is what he should be showing us, not amps.

The amperage WILL go down due to better power factor but it is irrelevant because the watts WILL NOT and that's what you pay for, watts.

[freespeachrulez]

Yes, but what your implying is that you do not pay for amps..So let me ask you. If you only pay for Watts, and your appliances use amps in electric motors then do you not pay each time your washer and dyer turn on? What about a air conditioner? Do you not pay for those?

[ProTechPlumbing]

In the case of a purely resistive load, yes, amps and watts are proportional.

However, in inductive loads it's a whole different ball game. Reducing the inductive reactance will only reduce volt-amps (and consequentially amps as well) while doing nothing for wattage.

I clearly demonstrated this in my video Power-save 1200 unit scam. If you watch the video you will see the volt-amps fluctuate while the watts remain constant when the unit is cycled on and off. Pretty cut and dry stuff.

[jenko701]

@ProTechPlumbing You are dead on the money with every thing you are saying .Keep up the good work . We will for get you are a plumber.

[uvman707]

@freespeachrulez

You ARE paying for watts used, not amps. If have an amphour meter on your home, you will be paying more. State laws requires electric metering be done in kilowatthours, not ampere-hours.

[SuperLotech]

I have personally installed two of these units for customers of mine. The first customer showed me their electric bill after the unit had been running for two months and there was no change. So I performed expirements myself. Clearly you can monitor a drop in current, and improved power factor with the PS1200 on. But if you time the electric meter, there will be no change in speed. Digital meters pulse, and analog meters use a dial but the end results will be the same, no electric savings.

[wirenut018]

I deal in facts. Fact is i am saving money. No one asks about your career. Electronics technician is what, Geek Squad? Get a life buddy.

[uvman707]

Power Save is not needed when you have appliances that are Energy Star compliant. They have power factor correction devices already built in them.

Power Save is not worth the money for the homeowners.

End of discussion.

[wirenut018]

ive had it installed for two months and i am saving, big time! my last years avg bill was $275 per month. two months in a row (during the summer when I use my ac all of the time) my bill has been under $275. may = $231 april = $236.

it obviously isn't a scam.... it's common sense.

[uvman707]

I am an electronic technician for 30 years. Real power is real power. You're paying for watts used, not amps nor apparent power.

I have a wattmeter connected to my test setup and found the motor wattage DOES NOT change whether the Power-Saver 1200 is on or not.

Clearly, Power-Saver 1200 is a scam for homeowners.

End of discussion.

[Gutter22]

This is a scam!!! Do your research!

[uvman707]

There is something wrong with this video. Shows using a ammeter, no watt meter.

This idiot is trying to hide something. SCAM!!

[FRANK101101101]

volts * amps = watts

240volts * 10 amps = 2400watts

110volts * 20 amps = 2200watts

I.e. watts are effectively amps if power factor is good or leading and voltage is constant.

It would be a high load installation (ie a big family with AC everywhere that would save due to power factor correction in a domestic installation)

in industry its essential in my opinion

[uvman707]

I have studied how watthour meters (Mechanical and electronic) work for the past 15 years. I have done numerous tests on power factor correction devices. The watthour meter DID NOT REGISTER any changes with the power correction device on or off. I even used a $3000.00 power analyzer. Sure the power factor and apparent power changes, but not true power. The watthour measures only true watts used. The power save 1200 offers no savings to the homeowners, except for large industries.

[uvman707]

This device does work. HOWEVER, the watthour meter still reads the same whether the power saver is on or not. The watthour meter only register power in watts taken by the load, not reactive load. The power companies can benefit from it, not your wallet.

Power companies never talk about it nor endorses it. Period

[wirenut018]

I have purchased a PFC unit and it works great. Most of my savings are on my well pump. The motor pulls in 6.3A as it should but on the utility side it only reflects 4.5A.

[uvman707]

You are paying for watts used, not amps. It will not make any difference on your electric bill.

[paulusgnome]

Pleased you mentioned the power savers from Xedia. This copied from the Xedia website : "The X Power device is a capacitor which does not materially affect or reduce power usage or the cost of electricity when used." Now, AccentBuildingCorp, you were saying something about power savings?

[AccentBuildingCorp]

Volts, amps and watts are reduced and motor life is increased. The results show up immediately as a financial savings at the utility meter. The significance of the PFC lies in the fact that nearly a billion induction motors are used daily.

[AccentBuildingCorp]

Power Factor Controllers reduces excessive energy waste in AC induction motors. The unit is solid state providing a reduced voltage start, reduced energy consumption and improved power factor. The unit monitors the phase lag of the current and voltage relationship in a motor that is operating at less than full mechanical load. The controller cuts back the voltage to precisely what the motor requires to maintain the rated speed and torque under the present load.

[uvman707]

Ever try cracking that thing open? There are $40.00 capacitors inside the box. $300.00 is wasted money.

[AccentBuildingCorp]

The device senses fluctuations in the amount of power needed by an alternating current electric motor and then varies the power supply to meet the need. Laboratory tests show 6- to 8-percent savings under normal demand conditions. These tests resulted in a flood of interest. More than 20 companies were granted non-exclusive licenses for commercial use of the power factor controller technology.

[AccentBuildingCorp]

Invented by NASA engineer Frank Nola for the space program in the early 1980s at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama, the power factor controller, with its remarkable potential for energy savings, quickly became one of NASA's most widely adopted "spinoff" technologies. It was incorporated into machines ranging from household refrigerators and washing machines to typewriters, kidney dialysis and industrial drilling machines, as well as scores of other commercial products.

[AccentBuildingCorp]

Between Power-Save, Kevar, Exedia and others over a quarter of a million devices have been sold so something must be working. Capacitors have been fitted on large electrical machines industrially for over 60 years, many resellers are industrial electricians who have used and fitted them in large industrial plants - Ford, GM, Caterpillar etc and understand exactly how they work.

[tdezo]

Guys! We pay for consumed watts. This is NOT related to power factor or anything else.Watt is watt. We do not pay for reactive power,var. Good power factor is good for the utility company,but irrelevant to the average costumer. This is not even snake oil, this is scientific dark ages. TD,master electrician, electrical contractor

[AccentBuildingCorp]

If someone lives in a small modern home with no motor load other than a couple of Energy Star appliances - which have capacitors already fitted to the motors - then they will not get much savings if any, but we openly admit that.

[AccentBuildingCorp]

Power Save has never claimed specific savings and never claimed it does anything other than condition motor load. It will do nothing for lighting, base board heating etc which are reactive loads. However some of the competitors and their resellers have promised 25-50% savings which is over-optimistic at best. As we state, the larger the motor load the larger the savings and so customers in the sun belt, or the AC belt as it could be called, generally have great results

[AccentBuildingCorp]

Claim-the only potential for real power savings occur if the product were put in the circuit while a reactive load were running, and taken out of the circuit when the motor is not running. FACT-This is impractical, given that there are several motors in a typical home that can come on at any time, but the unit itself is intended for permanent, unattended connection near the house breaker panel. The point they are missing is that in the modern home these devices cycle on and off all day and night

[AccentBuildingCorp]

The EPA has power factor requirements for high power devices to be Energy Star. The EPA states that all EPSs with a power output of at least 75 watts be required to have a power factor of at least 0.9 at 100% of rated load. The distribution losses the EPA is attempting to address with the power factor correction requirement are typically related to high-power-consuming products such as home appliances. This regulation reduces distribution losses.

[5occerboy]

Re EPA regulation.  If you cite a regulation do provide the reference. But you won't because there is no such regulation.

[AccentBuildingCorp]

There is a substantial cost increase in serving customers with low power factor loads. These costs are not reflected in metered use of working power. Therefore, special provisions are made to compensate utilities for the additional investment. Accordingly, some rates call for penalties ranging from 1 to 3 percent when the power factor is between 85 and 70 percent.

[5occerboy]

Accent you are a Nitwit. You will now by hoisted by your own petard: the statement "These costs are not reflected in metered use of working power" is fatuous. You get charged for what the utility meters register i.e. for the energy used, so what other phantom costs are you raving about that are "not reflected in the metered use of power". Newsflash - the utility charges you by what the the meter registers, it doesn't charge you for what it doesn't register (such as stray quarks for example)!

[AccentBuildingCorp]

Power factor is an efficiency measurement used in the electrical industry. Maintaining a high power factor reduces the current flow thats needed to improve loading conditions and stabilize distribution voltage. Most utilities DO (mine included) charge additional fees when power factors drop below the 80 percent minimum on custom's bills. To help you avoid paying these fees, we can improve power factors by changing equipment operations and installing capacitor or harmonic filter banks.

[5occerboy]

To Accent the technical ignoramus, power factor is NOT a measure of efficiency you have several electrical & physics terms all confused together The equation for efficiency is Power Out/Power In as a %. Power factor is the angle between the voltage and current waveforms these are quite distinct concepts. You scam artists are fond of regurgitating the dictionary of electrical definitions with abandon. Utilities may charge some large customers for power factor but residences do not.

[5occerboy]

To avoid being scammed by these mountebanks check your utility bill. Unless you are a large industrial customer you will not see a power factor penalty charge. If you are a large customer with pf penalty liability you no doubt have the resources to hire a professional engineer who will study the various loads and their activity and judiciously place power factor correction devices of the appropriate sizes at the offending loads and ensure that harmonic resonance problems are not introduced.

[pilgrimmpg]

An Electrician told me that our power company is sending out up to 100 surges a day (The purpose of this i wouldn't know). If that is the case would this type of unit "flaten" out the power coming into the house thus saving wear and tear on inductive equipment and also be of some benefit to electronic like computers?

[AccentBuildingCorp]

Yes, The Power-Save protects the entire home against power surges. The Power-Save 1200 provides a broad range of protection for hardwired appliances and most home electronics such as televisions, satellite equipment, entertainment systems, etc. The unit protects from power line surges as well as spikes caused by internal wiring problems, loose connections and fluctuating demand from large motors such as appliances, vacuum cleaners, heating and cooling equipment, etc.

[5occerboy]

Pilgrim That's excessively exaggerated I work in measuring utility voltage disturbances It's more like 2 a day and they are generally benign transient events caused by the utility switching in power factor correction capacitors. If you live in high lightning areas (Fl, Az) that means more events will occur during storms but then the utility can't help that! If they are talking about power conditioning OK it has some merit but 95% of residences won't need it. Understand it won't save energy.

[johnjagz28]

I trid calling them about more info on this item. They said look there website. I asked if i can talk to a person. They stated they could send out some info in the mail. Call for yourself 631.470.3310.

[BlasterMaster5]

I ordered one to test for 60 day if it shows no improvement I can return. I use around 1000kwh a month and have fridge and freezer and well pump. If can save 200Kwh then its worth it. You can save a lot by replacing Lts with CFL. Also notice a difference by balancing all my window A/C loads.

[hillbilliebob69]

I have had ours up and running for over a year, I dont seem to see any savings on our electric bill, In fact my bill seems to be running a bit higher for some reason (perhaps its from using more electricity), Anyways this PU-1200 makes the perfect whole house surge protector 2000 joules, A major retailer that rhymes with the word "DEPOT" sells whole house surge protectors for as low as 79.00 this PU-1200 makes a very expensive 299.99 whole house surge protector.

[5occerboy]

Fair enough there may be a benefit if this device has surge protection but it won't save you kWh or energy - in fact it USES energy so it's still a SCAM

[BlasterMaster5]

Ct meter only measures rms(.707 x peak). Same as amp probe X volts.

[BlasterMaster5]

Inductive loads will use more power with poor power quality and type of power, (dc or Ac) 1 phase, 3 phase and frequency. Ex 277v high bay Lts vs 120V with same lamps. 277v will you around 10% less with same output. Voltage is pressure that stay the same because in parallel. Current is flow of electrons(kinda what your paying for).

[5occerboy]

Occasionally Blaster you state something that has some truth - OK a distorted waveform if severe can cause excessive heating in transfomers and motors but the rest of your statement regarding lamps is absurd. Also you don't pay for flow of electrons (or current) you pay for watts over time or kWh (energy) You keep stepping over the basic equation watts = volts x amps x POWER FACTOR so if amps goes down power factor goes up, you still use the same amount of energy, in watts Stop the scamming!

[BlasterMaster5]

Heat is directly proportional to amperage. With a thermal image of a breaker you can tell the amperage by the temperature. Using NEC conductor ampacity.

[BlasterMaster5]

Capacitors help filter harmonics and counter react inductance. Just about everything in house now days is an inductive load. Every electronic device uses a transformer. You don't get free power with a better sine wave you just consume less.

[5occerboy]

to "You don't get free power with a better sine wave you just consume less" A ridiculous statement, it's complete bollocks! The shape of the sine wave has nothing to do with the power needed by a load to do work. Even if the voltage and current waveforms were not perfect sinewaves i.e. they have distortion it would make no difference. Look, you are not getting it. If a load needs 1 kw to do work it doesn't matter if the V&I waveforms are sine waves or triangles the load will still take 1kw

[AccentBuildingCorp]

The unit corrects power factor. Most homes we see have a poor power factor of .6 or less. The unit corrects that. Mathmatically it will reduce your Kwh consumption just due to ohms law. The department of Energy endorses this product.

[5occerboy]

The Dept of Energy does not endorse these SCAMS & kWh has nothing to do with Ohms law - I dare you to explain how - Residences are not charged for power factor they are charged for energy in kWh It's a fundamental point of physics that it will take a certain amount of energy to run your A/C or motors or lights, you can't get energy for nothing or do the same work for less. It's like the scams saying you can improve your car's mileage from 25mpg to 40mpg C'mon people you know it's not possible!

[AccentBuildingCorp]

Claim-Residential customers are not charged for KVA-hour usage, but by kilowatt-hour usage. This means that any savings in energy demand will not directly result in lowering a residential user's utility bill.

FACT- amperage is increased by the induction of load and that translates into a higher bill.

[5occerboy]

Ok Accent you are starting to talk some sense by confirming customers get charged for kilowatt-hour usage. But amperage is not energy. Refer to the text books and look it up kW = volts x amps x power factor. Watts over time is energy in kWh. And if you install your worthless box it will consume additional energy and make people's energy bill increase not decrease.

[BlasterMaster5]

hazeyfla it would be 124v x 3.2A= 396.8 watts of usage. 124v x 2.2A= 272.8 watts of usage. Accurate as long as you used a true rms meter.

[5occerboy]

Blaster you are forgetting power factor - it's physics. Correct equation is watts = volts x amps x power factor. You calculated apparent power (VA) not real power in watts. You can reduce amps but watts stays the same - due to power factor. The energy needed by the load to do work in kWh is a constant. You can change either pf or amps, if one goes down the other changes to satisfy the above equation. The con here is that these scamsters suggest that the load can do the same work with less kWh.

[markloewenberg]

So why do energy star appliances now have capacitors build into them? Because it works! So then imagine this on the house hold level...even better AND the added benefit of surge protection to boot!.. yes the technology as been around for 100 years, but so has the wheel and it still is improving daily...

[5occerboy]

Not sure what your point is. Capacitors are used for many reasons but let's cut to the chase by observing that any electronic device with a power supply will have a capacitor on it's output to regulate the voltage it's common design practice. You don't use capacitors solely for surge protection.There are standards for household appliances to present an acceptable power factor to the supply so the easiest way to accomplish this is with capacitors. Articulate your point better and we can advise.

[Garygolf36]

The boxes in question store the reactive power to create the electromagnetic field (EMC) around the inductive windings of a motor. As motors operate, reactive power is pulled and pushed to and fron these boxes by the motor at 60 cycles/sec. The box stores and releases what the motors need to function efficiently. This serves to reduce the heat & strain on the lines & electric components. Electricity that would normally be pushed bk through the power distribution lines is reclaimed & recycled.

[5occerboy]

UTTER NONSENSE! Go back to school and pay attention to the power triangle conversation (W, VA, VAR) Your SCAM box has a capacitor to change power factor so it will change VA and VA but W never changes since it is the WATTS that does work. The utility bills you for Watts over time (kWh) i.e. energy. You also slyly weave in the term "Power" in "Reactive Power" as if such a thing existed. Remember VAR stands for Volt Amps Reactive and is a mathematical concept and can do no useful work.

[hazeyfla]

If this unit drops the amp load on the panel then ampsxvolts=watts/ 2.2 amps x 124v=272.8watts 3.2ampsx 124v =396.8 watts hmmm. So if this unit shaves 1 amp over 24 hours then it would reduce your consumption by 2.976kwh

[5occerboy]

NOT TRUE! You have forgotten the equation power in AC circuits is Watts = Volts x Amps x Power Factor. You can't get free power. From the equation if the load doing work (motor/compressor/refrigerator­/dryer/whatever) requires a certain level of watts you can muck about with the variables i.e. volts, amps, power factor but the watts needed to do the work will always be the same. Reduction of amps means less heating in wires but that work (heat) is tiny compared to work being done by the load.

[hazeyfla]

what if power factor goes from a 0.87 to 0.96?

[5occerboy]

Not sure what the point is you are trying to make so articulate it better. If power factor goes from a 0.87 to 0.96 you will see a reduction in amps and thus a tiny reduction in I squared R heating losses in wires but the kWh or energy needed to perform work will remain the same.

[hazeyfla]

Afriend lent me his ps1200 demo kit and i hooked into my panel first read w/out ps was 124v 3.2amps 0.87pf read w/ ps1200 was 124v 2.2 amps 0.96pf not an electrician just asking

[5occerboy]

If power factor goes from a 0.87 to 0.96 you will see a reduction in amps - I see that you did - and thus a tiny reduction in I squared R heating losses in conductors and wires but the kWh or energy needed to perform work will remain the same. You didn't save energy you only reduced amps - not the same thing.

[hazeyfla]

all i did was hook up my meter i am not endorsing this product just wanted to know if it worked thats all

[5occerboy]

They don't save energy they are scams

[BlasterMaster5]

The voltage is a constant in this equation. Residential 120/240v nominal Lower amps is awesome, you multiply them by the voltage to give you wattage. Run your dryer on a 12awg wire

instead of 10awg and I guarantee your electric bill will increase noticeably. 12awg solid is 1.93 ohms/kFT. 10awg solid is 1.21 ohms/kFt. It may not seem much. At 30amps the 10awg wire will be at 140 deg and the 12awg will be at 194 deg. I think you better rethink I2R. Its science!

[5occerboy]

We are actually in violent agreement regarding I2R losses. If you use 12awg wire which means thinner & higher resistance then the I2R losses will be more than with 10AWG as you illustrate. If amps is reduced less heat is lost in the wires. But wiring heat loss is a separate conversation, I2R loss in wires is tiny compared to the watts needed to do work by all the loads in your home or facility. You can't get free energy - it's physics! If something looks too good to be true it probably is.

[5occerboy]

NOT TRUE. Garygolf This explanation is utterly bogus and misleading. Capacitors do not store power. They store charge. Thus there is no power to be "recycled & reclaimed". Changing power factor does not alter the watts that are needed to do work - and that's what you get billed for - watts over time (kWh) Unless you are a big industrial user you don't get billed for power factor - good or bad!

[gnosker1]

These boxes are 100% legal. The Power-Save is manufactured in CA. and the Kvar in Florida. They have been on tv all over the US. If these boxes were a scam & did not work, the Attorney General for these states would have them shut down. They do work or you have thousands of liars all over the US giving false testimonials. I have $10,000 for 5occerboy to put up or shut up. Maybe some lawyer will sue him for libel one of these days. He will have nothing to do with ever shutting these boxes down!!!

[paulusgnome]

Actually, Gnosker, that is exactly what happened when the Texas AG got hold of the X-Power (a competing product). This from their website : "The XPower device is a capacitor which does not materially affect or reduce power usage or the cost of electricity when used." They did not put this up willingly, they were forced to on pain of vigorous prosecution for selling fraudulent products if they did not.

Eventually, the same thing will happen to this scam - the two are virtually the same.

[Garygolf36]

The Power Save 1200 is the one I have and my friends have, and they do work. I don't know about the XPower. All of our kilowatt hours have been reduced and we all see a savings on our electrical bill. So, what can I say!!!

[gnosker1]

Wow, you all don't even know that a capacitor stores electricity(watts). This has been around for a long time. Large factories, amusement parks,etc... have spent thousands of dollars for large capacitor banks that do just that. It is new to the residential consumer now. Before electricity was pretty cheap so was not a real need for it. Now there is. This method has been endorsed by the Dept. of Energy. It raises the powr fctor frm around 77% to 98% instd of wastng the 23% you already paid for!!

[gnosker1]

You are right about one thing. If evry home had one of these, it would cost the Power Companys million of dollars. There will be thousands and then millions of homes that get these, now that they are being made for the residental customer. You can look at my bill or any one's bill that has one, and I will bet you $1000 that they do indeed save money by cutting down on our kilowatt hours. Why are you all so ignorant?? You must work for the Power Company or something????

[5occerboy]

Utter bollocks, you are still incorrect! Capacitors have been around a long time so you should know that Capacitors do NOT store power (watts) they store charge. See a physics text book and note the equation Q=CV Q is charge C=Capacitance and V=Voltage. When capacitance is present in AC circuits a phase shift between voltage(V) and current(I) occurs this is measured as an angle between V & I or power factor. You fail to grasp this point RESIDENTIAL USERS ARE NOT BILLED FOR POWER FACTOR

[hazeyfla]

Progress Energy of Florida and North Carolina is talking about changing their meters to read power factor and kwh.

[5occerboy]

Newer electronic utility meters with their powerful processors calculate all aspects of power - in physics there are only three things you can measure: voltage current and time, so once you have V and I values and know their time relationship you can calculate W, VA, VAR, pf, dpf, THD etc. Modern digital signal processors give you all these parameters almost for free. Measuring parameters with a meter is one conversation. But billing users for power factor is an entirely different conversation.

[5occerboy]

IF you were a big user of power and were creating poor power factor either the utility would install capacitor banks, or you the end user would do so if you were actually being billed for poor power factor i.e. a power factor penalty. Residential customers are NOT billed for pf. Let's settle this lunatic argument once and for all. Dear Residential Reader. Get a utility bill and look it. You will see you are billed for energy in kWh there is no charge mentioned anywhere for power factor.

[gnosker1]

I can't keep replying to ignorant people. You need to talk to any good certified electrician, which my son is. He put both of our boxes in and we are saving between $35 and $50 a month. So box does work and why would the Dept of Energy endorse this otherwise??? Our kilowatt hours are down, just like everyone else's testomonys. You are calling thousands of people liars. I tell you what, you put one on your house(if you have one), and if you don't save $, I will pay for your box. I hv 1, & u do nt

[5occerboy]

Come off it, the Dept of Energy has NOT endorsed this product. Show us the DOE endorsement on their web site or a contact person with whom we can authenticate your absurd claims. The ignorance is one of lack of technical understanding of electricity on your part. If you want to have a pecker matching contest with your son - my degree is in physics and I'm expert in power metering. :-) I am committed to helping the lay person understand that this product like many similar types are SCAMS

[TheElectricalGuru]

These units DO WORK.....You have to understand that conditioning the system by raising the power factor rating of the system can indeed save the client money in the long haul.

[BrianOshman]

This is ohms law, this is physics, this is the way it works. Adding capacitors to a circuit will create a phase shift in the voltage vs. the current and this is what creates the drop in current since the two waveforms are shifted 90º out of phase of each other. This works on all inductive loads and since most are switching to florescent lighting it will reduce these loads too as a florescent lamp is essentially an L/C circuit. You will see savings from adding capacitors to your service.

[BrianOshman]

P=IxE

Simple ohms law. If you reduce the current then you effectively reduce the power consumption.

I can see that no one commenting here knows how electricity works. Changing one variable in the equation will inherently change the value of the other. The voltage is what remains constant. (E) When you change the current (I) then the wattage ( Power) (P) will also change.

[5occerboy]

WRONG WRONG WRONG equation is incomplete

Power (watts) = Volts x amps x POWER FACTOR

Brian, refer to the power triangle Watts VA VAR You can reduce VAR by improving power factor by adding capacitors BUT "work done" still requires the same Watts. You can't get work for free. And so what? You are billed for energy (or watts over time) OR kWh so until the utility penalizes you for power factor your arguments like this product are utterly bogus - these devices are scams and complete bollocks!

[gnosker1]

5occerboy is wrong. In easy laymens terms: The Power Saver reduces the amount of power drawn from utility by storing it in its capacitor; otherwise lost electricity(watts), caused by the inductive motors in your home. The Power Saver supplies that stored energy back your inductive loads, thus causing you to decrease your demand from the utility. If you decrease your demand, your meter slows down and you use less electricity.

[paulusgnome]

Actually, 5occerboy is 100% correct. Capacitors do not reduce the amount of power drawn from the supply. Power = Volts x Amps x Power Factor, and the effect of the capacitor is to reduce the line current while increasing the power factor. The net effect is that the power drawn remains the same.

If capacitors really did save power, every ho0me would have been fitted with them decades ago!

[5occerboy]

This bloke should never be allowed near an electrical outlet! He doesn't understand electricity or physics. Your response is right on. If like me you have been following posts for this product scam and others like it on youtube, I have noticed two types of con artists. Those that knowlingly dupe the layperson and then those that are technically deluded and impaired. Let's be charitable and assume gnosker is the latter so let's just keep on educating him until he gets it or admits he's a fraud!

[5occerboy]

BrianOshman you are a technical DUNCE!

1) P=IxE is not correct for Ac circuits the correct equation is P=I x E x power factor

2) you have confused ohms law (ohms) with power (watts)

Get a basic electricity text and read it before posting any more ridiculous and erroneous comments

[bob7rob7]

My friend Virginia did lower her electricity bill. She saved $35 the on the first bill after this was installed. We are in Texas and it was a hot month, so the AC was going 24 hours per day. Her average bill was $300 per month, and this month, it was $265.00

[hardtoremember]

/watch?v=GoT2Epl7sGM

[GaslightAlley]

There is nothing typical regarding a motor with no mechanical load. We are billed for watts not amps! for billing are highly accurate devices. These energy meters only measure REAL power, NOT reactive power! As for power factor correction, this benefits the utility so they provide their own on the primary side of the distribution network.

[5occerboy]

f it looks to good to be true it probably is! If you are approached to become a dealer for these my advice is to run away. I met a guy who invested $20K for the right to become a dealer - he's been duped. What is going on here? (Check out my comments with any electrical engineer.) An UNLOADED motor has poor power factor. Improving power factor reduces amps but the motor still needs to do the same work in watts - you get billed for watts not amps. See next comment

[GeorgiaPatriot41]

They do not ask for 20k.

[5occerboy]

In UNLOADED motors the watts is going into heat and mechanical work. Reduce amps and you reduce heat loss so in UNLOADED or low load situations you will see a small reduction in watts because you are making less heat. ( Electrical engineers: I refer to the VA, VAR, and Watts triangle - improving power factor reduces VA V is the same so A goes down) In the real world few situations correspond to lightly loaded motors. Notice demo is on an UNLOADED motor it is doing virtually no mechanical work.

[5occerboy]

If you want to save money in your residence you would be better off turning lights and a/c off when not needed - get occupancy sensors - buy compact fluorescents - and junk that 15 year old fridge and get a more efficient one.

[5occerboy]

These devices may improve power factor but residential users are not billed for power factor! These devices may clean up power - reduce spikes etc. but that does nothing for saving energy. Bottom line: these devices do not offer any savings for the 99% of users. A rigorous side-by-side test in 2 identical homes done at the same time in with the same weather conditions and exact same activities (running appliances lights etc.) with logging kWh meters will prove or disprove their dubious claims.

[cbritton11]

Notice! He never shows you the watts consumed! This will reduce amps and improve Power factor but does not decrease what you are paying for. The watts stay the same!  Don't buy it to find out, I did and it does not save energy or money!!! Show me the watts!

[jeffsjunk2]

One and only one thing matters to me. . . HOW MUCH ELECTRICTY IS USED! At the end of the month, I don't care what your little yellow meter says. I want to know what the electric company's meter says.

Put an electric company meter between your display and the power source. Run the demo for an exact amount of time; say 1 & 10 hours, with and without the POWER-SAVE 1200. HOW MUCH POWER IS USED! That is how my electric bill is determined.

Give us are real demo POWER-SAVE!

[candledarklight]

sigh...okay...for all you idiots out there. How about people who are using this equipment post here and not the fools who have no clue if the unit works or not. I have local people who use this equipment and shows bill trends of roughly 15%-45% savings even though its advertise around 10%-25% savings.  I see the stats so nothing else really to say. If you don't have first hand knowledge of equipment, maybe you shouldn't post.

[hazeyfla]

i agree.......does anyone have a power-save 1200 installed at their home or business?

[hurryaugust]

This device is simply a huge surge suppressor - similar to the 98 cent part in most "computer protection" outlet strips. It installs parallel to, not in series with your main to load circuits. It merely reduces the spikes when some motors start or stop.

[flipnet]

Consider this: If you install the Power-Saver right next to an inductive load and it decreases the amperage by 10 amperes, as shown in the video, then that is 10 amperes less that is being conducted through the home's electrical wiring. Let's say that the wiring is aluminum and somewhat resistive, maybe about 4 ohms. The electrical REAL POWER losses in the electrical network due to heating will be P=I^2R = 10*10*4= 400 Watts of REAL POWER, REAL KILOWATTS.

[powerbuoy]

You fail to explain the difference between real power and reactive power. You scam artists fail to explain that the utility does not charge for the high amps that you display. Inrush is also not a problem since it lasts for only 20 milli seconds. What a snake oil scam.

[share2go]

its a scam dont buy it . just sent to the fbi

[PowerExpert]

I challenge you to perform the same (first) example displaying Watts instead of Amps. You'll see that with or without the capacitor the Watt remains the same. You pay for power (kilowatt-hour) not amperage. the capacitor will not affect the power used. Factories can save money because they get penalized for poor power factor. One more thing. This demo will be most dramatic with no mechanical work being done the motor which is the case here, but is not realistics in normal appl.

[AccentBuildingCorp]

I have a unit and tested it with watts on the meter. It does lower watts subtantially. The watts do increase and decrease with the load on the motor, but it does lower the number on the meter.

[willfloe]

No hidden wires but the demo is flawed from the beginning!

The device reduces amps but does NOT save wattage. You are billed for watts, not amps. Measuring amps is meaningless!

The only power is saves is that of wiring losses which is insignificant. The univ info proves this! They also dont show when the motor is off but the power-save unit still connected that it causes an amperage draw. Since your motors run less than half the time, the unit causes more loss than it would save!

[7forward]

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[PresOfWeb]

Ya, right...why does your demo board have hidden wires? You need to color code the wires and bring them to the front of the board. The term "Power Factor" is not found in any electrical textbook.