Flipper Variation No 5 Clarrie Grimmetts 'Mystery Ball'

[77Fortran]

I was wondering do you have some insights into the technique of the English bowler S.F.Barnes? He seems as far as I can tell to be someone who bowled at a medium pace but could still spin the ball enough to get a lot of drift and effective turn off the pitch. By his stupendous success with this he seems like a real anomaly and I wonder if he had some unusual physiological thing in his favour!

[someblokecalleddave1]

@77Fortran I've read a couple of books that mention Barnes. Amol Rajans book 'The Twirlymen' highlights the points that you've made and as you've said there's not been a modern equivalent, I suppose the closest thing we've got at the minute is Afridi. I've never seen anyone who I'd describe as fast in that way or come across anyone who's considered trying it. I think I'd try it if I was 20-30 years younger!

[77Fortran]

@someblokecalleddave1 Thank you for the reply! Yes, I hope we see something like that again and it's not just a matter of pitches being too benign nowadays to do really well bowling like that. There's a footage of the New Zealander Simon Doull bowling Nasser Hussain on youtube which is maybe the kind of ball that Barnes was bowling.

[shutuprafa]

So I think I've got this but I have to make sure I only keep two fingers on it. I usually keep three or four fingers for my normal flipper. I use the two finger grip when bowling the off-spinning flipper and the grimmett ball. Using just two results in more of a squeezing action. 3-4 fingers will allow the ball to come from under the thumb, so it works well for off cutters, backspinners, leg cutters, and gippers. If you have the wrists of saqlain, the 2 finger grip can produce a doosra I imagine

[someblokecalleddave1]

@shutuprafa I've not used it for a long time, but I'm with you on the two fingered approach and the other attribute you need is the wrist mobility. When learning all these I noticed that if you bowl using the flipper click technique ( I'm beginning to realise has much in common with the finger spinners technique) and bowl it with the back of the hand facing the batsman and the wrist cocked backwards it produces a Leg Break - but you'd need Muralis arm and shoulder dexterity I reckon.

[shutuprafa]

@someblokecalleddave1 I've been giving some thought to the different styles of legspin bowling. Isn't it interesting how Pakistani leggies (Mushtaq, Qadir, Afridi) use a lot of drift and marginal turn and bounce, Indian leggies (Kumble, Chandra, a few minor ones) use a lot of bounce and marginal turn and drift, and Aussie leggies (Warne, Macgill, Grimmett, O'Reilly) use a lot of turn and marginal bounce and drift? The actions are also very distinct (higharm v. roundarm, etc)

[someblokecalleddave1]

@shutuprafa You're getting too technical for me now Shutuprafa! I've very little knowledge of many of the bowlers you mention, but it's interesting in what you're saying about the Pakistani bowlers & drift. Drift is something I'm interested in at the moment, but there's very little footage of Qadir and Mustaq to have a look at and see what you mean, I'll go and have a look at them now. I always thought that Warne was well known for his ability to get the ball to drift?

[shutuprafa]

@someblokecalleddave1 Take a look at the blewett lbw vid on robelinda2's channel. Mushtaq whips his fingers between over the side of the ball and over the top of the ball. It drifts in with mild break from leg. The axis on which the ball is spinning is at an angle between pointing toward the sky (flying saucer) and pointing toward the batsman (leg-break). I've asked Rob to upload some Qadir highlights. Warne got late drift from lots of flight (think magnus effect when the ball moves vertically )

[WhatElseExceptNature]

@someblokecalleddave1 But yea, batting is fun when you do it with a clear opinion. Its fun slogging and doing graceful shots and strokes. But its only fun below the middle order or below half of it - the pressure really gets onto you if you are the top 5 batsmen, and making a mistake is easy. But anyways, you should try batting! What's your favourite shot? Mines the sweep shot or the reverse sweep (reverse sweep is basically mirrored off the sweep shot, so same thing really).

[someblokecalleddave1]

@WhatElseExceptNature I get very little opportunity, I've kind of done quite well with some not outs seeing batsmen home to high scores and stuff like that. I suppose my best shot is a little glance of the face of the bat, angled down through slips to 3rd man. I have another 1 off shot when there's no-one at Leg slip position a one handed flail at the ball that goes for a couple of runs off slow bowlers. Hopefully as my sons get older I'll get more opportunity to practice?

[WhatElseExceptNature]

@someblokecalleddave1 Haha you are an interesting guy! And oh I was looking up tips for flight and dip on google and I read an article and I saw a comment by you on it. Site is htt ://ww.pitchvision. com/spin-bowling-flight-and-gu­ile. And its recent as well! What a coincident. I also am messaging you for some things.

[someblokecalleddave1]

@WhatElseExceptNature Yeah I'm everywhere, I write a lot about this stuff, I've got two big blogs one of which I'm working on a massive update on. Ideally I'd like to update these videos but I'm waiting on two slo mo cameras so I can film stuff from two angles, but that's likely to be a project for next year now.

[someblokecalleddave1]

Part 2; Just clicking a tennis ball with the wrist in a very contorted position, until I built up the flexibility. Then still not bowling I introduce a kids size cricket ball doing the same thing and on the 3rd week a full size ball. I then found with a just a few balls I was able to bowl it over 22 yards. It's a ball you have to bowl frequently I think other-wise you lose the wrist dexterity.

[WhatElseExceptNature]

@someblokecalleddave1 Thanks for the reply. Another thing: can a left arm slow bowler bowl this delivery? (Stock: Off spin, but can also do leggies, orthodox bowling but no offies at the moment). I am 16 by the way. Most comfortable at batting in the middle order. Part time batting, specialist spinner. Weakness in batting: Yorkers, swinging fast balls. Just thought I should put some info about me :)! You seem like a talented cricketer.

[someblokecalleddave1]

@WhatElseExceptNature No far from it! I came to cricket far too late in life, brain washed by the idea that England is great footballing nation (I was 6 when we won the world cup). I read a lot about it and have experimented with a lot of these deliveries and used many in match situations. Gone through the googly syndrome and still trying to recover from that properly. I bat at No11 and get quite a few not outs. But I probably experiment and bowl a lot of wrist spin - good and bad!

[WhatElseExceptNature]

@someblokecalleddave1 You should also try batting! Its great fun once you get into the real thing. From when I was 12 to just a month back, I was completely biased towards bowling, and regarded batting as "easy - at least easier than bowling, with way too much luck" - in other wors, inferior. I still believe it is easier than bowling, at least spin bowling, and you can get really lucky while there is no such thing as 'luck' when bowling - even if there is, only a little luck.

[WhatElseExceptNature]

Kumble uses this delivery in utmost perfection, I have seen it with my own eyes.

Anyways, just came back from practice. I tried this delivery and got smashed for a six and a four.. :L. Its one of those deliveries which is almost impossible to do with a bowling action legal in the ICC rulebook... tips?

[someblokecalleddave1]

@WhatElseExceptNature There's a bloke on a forum I write on and when we were looking into this ball we found the Ashley Mallett reference to Jenner sayng it was impossible over 22 yards. The bloke got in touch with Jenner and Jenner back in 2009 was still of the opinion that it was impossible to bowl. I found initially it was very diificult and pulled all the muscles in my wrist and caused medial epicondylitis (Tennis elbow). I went back to it months later started off (Part 1) continued....

[shutuprafa]

I have no idea how to get this...the off spinning flipper and the gipper seem like the toughest doable balls for me. I release the off spinning flipper very late as is, to bowl this would require me to release this after I've completed my action lol. This seems as difficult as rotating my wrists further from the gipper to get a topspinner (except I actually can do this if I go frog in a blender). Tips?

[someblokecalleddave1]

@shutuprafa Yeah my early attempts were 'Frog in blender-esque', But this winter I changed the way I bowl it, bowling primarily a Googly action (Shoulder, twisted arm and wrist) and flicked it using the Flipper click and it worked perfectly. I think you have to have a good solid Googly action in order to execute this ball with any verve and finesse, otherwise it's a bit of mess as I've described in the video!!

[johnnycheck99]

I own Peter Philpotts book on wrist spin and he talks about hand/wrist positions when bowling. Do you have to use much of an effort in turning your whole wrist around bowling a top-spinner and googly? Or is it merely hand position on release?

[someblokecalleddave1]

@johnnycheck99 This needs a long answer, I'll email you.

[someblokecalleddave1]

Part (2). the interest that was generated on the net just from the thread on big cricket and appeared to put up their prices accordingly. Even now if you type in Grimmett you get links generated through our discussions appear in the 1st 10 google options a whole year later! Just goes to show how obscure this subject is!

[leftie600]

@someblokecalleddave1 Weird isn't it? All those statements about Grimmett while Warne was doing his thing yet it takes ages for people to take it on board!...except for the booksellers of course.

[someblokecalleddave1]

I'll have to look up 'The bowlers art' that's not one I've come across or heard of before. Is there much on the internet about the Warwick Armstrong grip and how far back does that date?

[leftie600]

@someblokecalleddave1 The Warwick Armstrong grip is essentially named after the man himself, hold the ball in a classic seam bowing grip with seam cross seam instead of pointing down the wicket. Twist the 2 fingers and thumb in a clockwise direction until your middle finger rests on your ring finger, the index finger hooks over the top of the ball and the thumb is on the left of the ball along the seam. To spin the ball you essentially uncoil your fingers at release giving you legspin.

[leftie600]

@someblokecalleddave1 This does not give you more spin than the conventional grip bit it makes up for it with control and a better feel for the seam aiding drift and overspin. Another bonus I have found from it is the thumb is already in a position to aid the googly and the backspinner/slider is driven by the thumb giving it more power.

[leftie600]

@someblokecalleddave1 Not plugging the book but take a look in Amazon (I'm assuming that they'll have the complete book and not just an abbreviated version) it has given me a better understand of the physics of a ball and the history of spin (pre-doosra), it is not a training manual but it does fill in the gaps between the mechanics of bowling and what actually happens when you let go.

[someblokecalleddave1]

@leftie600 Yeah I'll have a look, how old is it, can you still buy it in the shops or is it out of print?

[leftie600]

@someblokecalleddave1 Not too sure but it is definitely available for purchase on the net, also try a new book called 'Twirlymen' saw a review for it in the Guardian and it looks like a history of spin and spin grips

[someblokecalleddave1]

@leftie600 Yeah I've just ordered Twirlymen just 1/2 hour ago, a bloke on bigcricket was also on about both these books and I didn't make the connection, he's obviously reading the thread here and he's been quicker than me to pick up on your recommendations! I had a look for the Wilkins book, but they're most over your side of the world, I'll have to bide my time to pick up one on the cheap, although this happened with the Grimmett books and the retailers seemed to notice - continued..........

[leftie600]

Isn't this effectively an offies topspinner? Useful variation with the traditional leggies backspinner though.

[someblokecalleddave1]

@leftie600 Being a Wrist Spinner, my knowledge of Finger spinning is limited, but finger spinners on the big cricket forum have mentioned this before. Yeah, thinking about it you're right as they say the action is the 'Turning the door knob' analogy and this has distinct similarities. There's probably a lot more thumb action with this approach though?

[leftie600]

@someblokecalleddave1 Wristspinner as well but my grip is more the Warwick Armstrong type (don't believe the view that you can't bowl all the variations using it as a base!), yeah the thumb action may lend more spin when you just flick the ball around but from what I understand the offies action gives their toppie its oomph whereas this delivery is limited to the thumb. If you look at Grimmetts action you can see why he used this kind of variation as his action was quite gentle.

[someblokecalleddave1]

@leftie600 Have you read the Grimmett books?

[leftie600]

@someblokecalleddave1 Nope, but I've read the anecdotal stuff (especially 'The Bowlers Art" by Brian Wilkins) and seen the surviving footage of Grimmett's bowling. The first thing you notice how little of a rip he gives it in terms of the shoulder and wrist and how much he uses his fingers, hence the perfect platform he had for flipper experimentation. Plus he's from NZ like me so he has to be a genius! lol

[Hassananime]

I've seen all ur flipper videos

but which one is the most effective one

the one which skids the Lowest and fastest

[someblokecalleddave1]

@Hassananime I suppose it would depend on which of them you practiced the most and which you were best at. Last summer I found the off-spiining version the best with the seam tilted forward worked well with me, it had a tendency to drify and I was able to bowl it a lot faster that most of my other deliveries. Another good one is the top spinning one. Lowest and fastest for me - the off-spinner.

[Hassananime]

@someblokecalleddave1 I thought the

4 finger version was the most effective

But I can be wrong

the 2 finger version(Bog Standard) one which Warnie bowls

Is very hard I cant seem to ball it

My ball pitches very short

I think I still need practice

Flipper is the definitely the hardest bowl to ball

[someblokecalleddave1]

@Hassananime Practice is the key, if you try them all one by one, spending several hours/sessions on each, you'll get a feeling for one or two of them coming together and the others will seem impossible. I found the key to being able to bowl all of them was practicing the hand action for the top spinner which requires you holding the ball in front of you with the wrist angled and clicking the ball out of the hand with over-spin, as this strengthens the wrist.

[Hassananime]

@someblokecalleddave1 Can U ball some flippers and record them

in slow motion

Cuz Im still not sure how it should come out

[someblokecalleddave1]

@Hassananime I'll give it a go. I saw a vid on youtube where a bloke had filmed the deliveries from behind and that looked like a good way of filming them. If I remember this coming weekend and the weathers okay, I'll try it out and see if it's any good.

[someblokecalleddave1]

Not at the minute, I tend to only record my leg break bowling as it's the main delivery that I use and the one that needs to be constantly worked with. The back-spinning conventional flipper which is the one that swings only seems to (Like with seamers) in certain conditions. But yeah for sure if I've got the camera this summer and it's working I'll record it. I'll keep it in mind that you've requested this and I'll record the top - spinner and off spinner as well.

[Hassananime]

@someblokecalleddave1 Thanks man !

and when ur bowling a Flipper

should the hand be facing u

or should the back of the hand be facing u

[Hassananime]

@Hassananime Nvrmind I got it

[someblokecalleddave1]

@Hassananime The back-spinner; Back of your hand faces you.

[Stevebarrettfilm]

Is there any video examples of you bowling the various kinds of flippers?

Id love to see their variations when fully bowled, especially the variation that gives you swing

[iammdeepak1]

If you cahnge your wrist position, it become easier for the batsman to read doesn't it? Pardon me if I am wrong, but this looks more like an offie's top-spinner

[someblokecalleddave1]

@iammdeepak1 It may well be similar to an Offies Top-spinner, but they'll use their fingers rather than the thumb and fingers? It;s the use of the Thumb in conjunction with the with the finger that make it a Flipper variation. With regards batsmen knowing the difference - yeah they may see that your hand has changed position, but to be honest most professional commentators with the use of cameras and replays can't tell a flipper so most batsmen would be the same.

[johnnycheck99]

this is a murderously difficult bowl to send down, very tough indeed. I thinkit is tough to learn- if you are a natural then you can do it.

[someblokecalleddave1]

@johnnycheck99 - Yeah, you're right it is and I gave myself medial epicondylitis getting my wrist round to be able to flick it in this manner. If you're under 18 or still growing Benaud advises that you don't try any varitaions of the flipper but if you carry a ball around and just flick it like this for a couple of weeks it comes together and you'll be able to convert the action to your bowling.

[someblokecalleddave1]

w003394 I'll reply on the previously mentioned forum and it'll probably generate more comment from some of the others.

[someblokecalleddave1]

w0033944 - I have to concede I'm no expert, I bowl a bit, but I'm sure you'll probably agree this very subjective and if you read the book open to interpretation. There's a lot of discussion on the Big Cricket forum (Wrist spin thread) between me and several others on this these deliveries, by all means log on and discuss this in far more detail over there, as there's not enough room to do so here.

Dave

[someblokecalleddave1]

Yeah one of the forum users is a bloke who lives in NSW, he's the bloke that brought our attentions to Grimmett and his genius. He does a lot of research and accesses newspaper cuttings via a library local to him. He's read a lot on the subject and contacted both Ashley Mallet (who wrote a biography on Grimmett) and Terry Jenner asking them their views on Grimmetts variations and his contribution to the art. The reality seems that neither Mallet or Jenner have read Grimmetts books continued....

[w0033944]

Hi Dave, I think that, when Philpott advocates spinning the ball back towards the body, he means the conventional leg spin action. If you think abouit it, when delivering a leg-spinner from the side-on bowling position, you are effectively spinning the ball back towards yourself. In the same vein, when bowling the topspinner, you're doing the "across the body" drill.

[someblokecalleddave1]

Are you talking in terms of one of the other videos (The recent clips shot indoors)? If so, have you read his book 'The art of wrist spin bowling'? In there he goes through all the deliveries using Grimmetts 'Round the loop' theory as explained in the 1930's book 'Taking Wickets'. There are images and explicit explanations using the wrist in 4 distinctive positions, the last one being backwards which produces the slider and with slight variation the big leg break.

[someblokecalleddave1]

Yeah I'm personally undecided at the moment and will be practicing with both over the off-season period and will try them out in the nets in Jan 2010 against batsmen. You could in theory gain some advantage in that a normal Top-Spinner is potentially easily picked out of the hand, whereas this because it is so obscure wouldn't be so readily picked. Don Bradman rated this delivery off of Grimmett noting that it was one of Grimmetts more potent deliveries. It's a variation so use sparingly.

[w0033944]

@someblokecalleddave1

Sorry Dave, I wrote that as a reply to one of your blog posts, but I haven't got the right account. It is out of context in this video - my apologies. You know far more about this trhan I ever will, and, as a wheelchair user, I can't bowl properly in the sense that I can't run up, jup into a delivery stride etc. Having recently read Philpott's book, I'm reading the forum you mentioned and your blog to see how those that actually put this theory into practice see it.

[w0033944]

@someblokecalleddave1 Contd. My point was that my reading of Philpott's suggestion of spinning the ball in towards the body or across the body is for the reasons you discussed in your last two videos. It seemed to me that some people on the forum were confusing this with his writings on flipper variants. For what little it's worth, my reading of his flipper discussion was that Grimmet used the flipper to generate backspin, but with a round arm action and the seam horizontal...

[w0033944]

@someblokecalleddave1

contd... the horizsonatal seam therefore looking like the equator on a globe, whereas he seemed to me to say that the Benaud method, with the high arm action had the seam more upright. Given that people such as yourself who have rerad Grimmett's own books where he refers to the flipper as a topspun delivery rather than being underspun, it would indeed seem as though Philpott is vague on who used the flipper for what purpose.

[11legend22]

For this delivery cant you just bowl normal Top Spinner cos they both seem have to have same results unless your delivery dips and skids on??

[someblokecalleddave1]

Yeah a lot of people see this description as being really contentious and dismiss it as being nonsense, but there's a group of us on the forum that have tried it and had loads of success including some people that initially are dismissive. I've got to admit if I use that theory I'm able to bowl sliders, but as yet haven't mastered the slight variation between the backspinning approach and the side spinning approach the get the big leg break.