Spain debates law to recognise civil war victims - 30 Oct 07

[scottishchap2008]

the communists would have slaughtered at least 10% of the population, they do it in every country they take over

[NicoDavout]

You should be greatfull Franco for saving Spain from communists. We in Poland were not so lucky...

[catguy00]

@NicoDavout

Franco started the war against the democratically elected government. The Communists wouldn't even have been a factor if the civil war had never taken place.

[ssirenne]

@NicoDavout wow..you are narrow-minded (also known as dumb)...in Spain we were in a DICTATORSHIP...who cares if it's fascist o communist. hundreds of people were killed just because of their beliefs. all extremes bring nothing but crap, violence, repression, so don't say we should thank an extreme for keeping us away from another one...that's one stupid way of thinking

[ssirenne]

@NicoDavout wow..you are narrow-minded (also known as dumb)...in Spain we were in a DICTATORSHIP...who cares if it's fascist o communist. hundreds of people were killed just because of their beliefs. all extremes bring nothing but crap, violence, repression, so don't say we should thank an extreme for keeping us away from another one...that's one stupid way of thinking

[NicoDavout]

@ssirenne

The difference is enormous. Communist regime left Poland economically broken, while fascist regime in Spain made something called today "el milagro español".

[durbanspain]

antes de la guerra civil hubo un golpe de estado a la democracia; es decir hubo un atraco de alguien q tenia las armas hacia quien ni las tenia ni queria guerrear, solo querian vivir con dignidad; la dignidad q les robaba la iglesia, los reyes y nobles...

[durbanspain]

viva la democracia viva españa pero la de los españoles no la de los reyes y dictadores fascistas!!!

[PorqueNoProductions]

Franco´s myth of neutrality during the world war II must be unveiled as he provided 50,000 men , the blue division as it was called, to Hitlers Germany in its invasion of the USSR. Get your history right FINAL WAR1444 before you start speaking in generalizations and oversimplifications.

[OlenkaWagner]

@PorqueNoProductions - there were countries providing volunteers, but this does not change the fact they were neutral.

[PorqueNoProductions]

Franco did not save Spain from war but joined the attempted military coup which evolved into an civil war. The coup ended in stalemate between the rebels and the Republican government. If Hitler and Mussolini had not willingly given troops, weapons, planes, tanks, and military advisers many lives would have been saved and the war would not have been so bloody.

[FinalWar1444]

Franco is a hero ! He saved spain from war and communism,

[DataWorks]

These dirty socialist pigs are they also going remember the many victims of the Red Hords of Spanish Republicanism? I don't think so, these homosexuals will never allow it.

[supernorrie]

spoken like a true fascist, you in bread waste of humanity NO PASARAN

[DataWorks]

No my little homosexual socialist, I'm not a waste of humanity you are the ones who want to enslave the people while you live the good life. YA PASAMOS and shipped you putos to Hitlers camps.

[OlenkaWagner]

Supernorrie, you mean DataWorks? His words are emotional, but you cannot deny there were many victims of Spanish Republicanism. Can you?

[VivaGaliza]

The communists were worse than Franco's men. They killed more people and the 2nd Republic wasnt a democracy, it was a communist regime. Zapatero doesnt want a full democracy, he wants revenge. He is risking more problems in his quesrt for vengeance

[OlenkaWagner]

It looks like that. And it will bring more divisions instead of reconciliation.

[Guapito1973]

Those who were shot and buried in mass graves deserve to respected and laid to peace by their loved ones, but that includes all people of all sides. What I think is wrong is to paint the republican side as heroes and by that I mean , the republican government and army. The ordinary person in the street is the only heroe in this tragic vent.Regardless of political or religious belief.

[Larrius2006]

I think you must suffer from a reading disorder of some sort. The point of the video and previous posts is that almost all the Rightist people who died in the war and after have already been recovered, reburied and - in many cases - beatified. The Communists, leftists and indeed anyone who wasnt a Rightist have remained unrecovered and their story untold. The "Ordinary Person in the Street" in this story are non-rightists. So why are you defending the Francoists? You should know better.

[Guapito1973]

Who says I am defending the Francoists?

To say that the ordinary person in the street is only non-rightist is incorrect. Many innocent people who suffered during and after the war were rightist but it does not mean they necessarily condoned Franco's actions. Of course, there were also many ignorants who thought Franco's regime was a good thing. Or is everything just black or white to you?

[Guapito1973]

I grew up without my grandparents thanks to the persecution of my grandfather by both Franco's men and the Republican's men. Because he had liberal beliefs and in his town was known to have these beliefs he was arrested and was due to be shot. Thankfully he was instead set free by a Comandante who was a childhood friend but was ordered to leave Spain which ultimately destroyed my fathers' family and my grandmother died of a broken heart. So please, do not accuse me of being a fascist.

[Larrius2006]

So youre saying that thanks to the corruption of the Right you are alive? Be thankful, indeed. But if you feel that Franco and Co. were wrong, then you ought to know better than to post such blatant tripe in the first place.

[Guapito1973]

"So youre saying that thanks to the corruption of the Right you are alive?"

What? What are you on about?

You have called me a fascist and I explained to you about how Franco's regime badly affected my fathers' family. How could I be thankful to the corruption of the right? It doesn't make sense.

[Guapito1973]

Sorry, but again, I am not defending Francoists. I'm not refering to the video as such, more as to the current government's policy regarding the civil war. To me it seems to be "tit for tat". I never commented on your comments, in fact I haven't even read them. My comments are just an observation of what Zapatero's government are doing, not you.

[Guapito1973]

I'm sorry but you are very wrong. I am certainly not a fascist. All I'm saying is that it is hypocritical to suggest that the Reds were Heroes. The only heroes in this terrible story we the Spanish people who live through the misery and destruction caused by those ho seeked to impose utopian political beliefs, ie fascism and communism, so how dare you suggest that I am a fascist. And to suggest that I believe certain atrocities to be justified proves you haven't read my comments thoroughly.

[Larrius2006]

Where did I say the Reds were heroes? My specific point was that both sides deserve recognition, not just the supporters of the Right, who have been - and are being - constantly exalted in Spain. Seems that its you who didnt read my comments properly.

[Guapito1973]

No, I didn't read your comments. If I previously posted a reply to one of your comments it was a mistake.

I saw the video and having read what is going on in Spain I have made a comment about the situation, not a critique of your comments. No wonder we are getting our wires crossed.

[OlenkaWagner]

Definitely Zapatero is suggesting that the Reds were heroes. The new law forbade Francoist symbols and didn't forbid Republican symbols. Both sides commited crimes and both sides had their victims. In my opinion certain groups of Republicans (Stalinists) were the worst, because they wanted to make Spain dependent on the Soviet Union. But again, it does not refer to all the Republicans. But many Republicans were anti-civilization.

[charlygaul56]

y claro que hubo atrocidades por ambas partes, en cualquier guerra civil las hay, pero un bando, el que empezó todo, tuvo después de la guerra 40 años para velar a sus muertos y recibir todos los honores. y también para impedir al otro que hiciese lo mismo, machacándolo y humillándolo. nuestra sociedad ya es mayor como para hacer justicia de verdad, y no el pacto de olvido al que se nos obligó en 1978.

[Guapito1973]

What I find absurd is the fact that the Civil war is largely ignored by teachers. Having been to school in Madrid, my history teacher skipped the chapter completley, saying it was of no importance. How can that be when those terrible 3 years and the subsequent 36 of Franco have had such a lasting affect on Spain? The republican govenment before Franco was a disaster and bankrupt and what it was replaced with was no better, but they have made Spain what it is today.

[Larrius2006]

Because that period was one of crimes against humanity. After the war ended, Franco continued to massacre everyone he disliked, and gave his militias the right to do likewise. The era before Franco was one of democracy and comparative freedom, what followed after a gibberingly panicked, impoverished, isolated mess where the armed forces ruled supreme. And why do you think the PSOE rules now? Franco ruined Spain. However it seems that Hispanic Fascism is alive in people such as you.

[Guapito1973]

I'm sorry but you are very wrong. I am certainly not a fascist. All I'm saying is that it is hypocritical to suggest that the Reds were Heroes. The only heroes in this terrible story we the Spanish people who live through the misery and destruction caused by those ho seeked to impose utopian political beliefs, ie fascism and communism, so how dare you suggest that I am a fascist. And to suggest that I believe certain atrocities to be justified proves you haven't read my comments thoroughly.

[Guapito1973]

Civil war is the worst kind of war that could possibly exist. The killing of people by their own people merely for the greed of power disguising itself in the belief in a faith or political doctrine is absurd and shouldn't be tolerated or have to be tolerated by anyone.

So to display the Reds as the forgotten heroes, in the case of those who died, and as innocent victims is nothing short of hypocrisy by the socialist party.

[Larrius2006]

At what pount of "dragged out of bed in the middle of the night and shot in the head in front of ones family" seems justified to you? Hypocrisy? Propaganda? You are right. Civil War is a disgrace. And the fact that Spanish democracy has triumphed despite fascism for 40 years means that you and I are able to write this without fear of nocturnal reprisals. These people werent reds - they just werent fascists. They didnt invite Hitler to bomb Guernica. Would you have liked them more if they had?

[Guapito1973]

I do believe this law is slightly biased towards the left and I say that as someone whose grandfather was almost executed by Franco's troops but was ultimately forced to flee the country for being a liberal. There were atrocities commited on BOTH sides. It seems to be forgotten that many atrocities were commited by the "Reds", as they were known, the ransacking and looting and the killing of thousands of priests, nuns and sympathisers of Franco's side.

[Larrius2006]

The Catholic church recently canonised 450 of them. How many non-fascists were canonised? None. They are still in unmarked graves. Franco won - after he did, his thugs kept on killing, regardless of the political orientation of their victims, often - as in Arandiga - because of personal vendettas. And after all, how many people lament the poor Nazis killed by Jewish activists while Germany was moving towards the final solution? That point of view would be indefensible. As is yours.

[rbhillia]

I love how Tim Friend as reporting from "Madird" and not Madrid (2:50). LOL!

[lorens76]

this documentary and the law itself are clearly biased to the left, and seek to blame the conservatives of today for the deaths of the past. The story is not at simple as they put it. The '78 forgetting pact included the recognition of all victims, the pardon of most convicts, the welcoming of every exiled. In addition, the "elected government" prior to the war did execute some members of parliament...The president is just trying to get some benefits from the awful tragedy, 70 years later.

[Larrius2006]

The fallen of the Right were honoured as heroes and exalted in the Valley of the Fallen. Anyone not of the party line was tortured and shot with impunity, and 50,000 of them lie buried beneath dusty fields, unrecognised by the country in whose liberty they believed. It was their murderers who were pardoned. In Arandiga the murderers swaggered the streets for 50 years after the war's end, and died safely of old age. If you want to vote for the PP, feel free, but get your facts straight.

[charlygaul56]

¿y hacía qué lado quieres que esté escorado el documental, si uno de los bandos tenía la legalidad, la democracia, la razón y la autoridad moral de su parte? ¿cómo puedes pretender tratar a unos y a otros igual? ¿qué tipo de justicia es esa?

[hajqbvii]

Religon (Roma) should have stayed out of this!

Thanks for posting.

[darkwraith07]

Indeed, most interesting...