Re: coffeeIsback on vegetarianism and inmendham

[ocurro]

read a book by Daniel Quinn, it will open your mind, break it down for you.

[LicoriceStraps]

Nice video. Good points made and I agree completely. It is best to live with a minimum of suffering happening on you behalf. The life of an animal is valuable to that animal so it should too be valuable to you. Sure your not saving the world but at least your trying and not having a negative affect, that's what I think is the main thing.

[CoffeesIsBack]

Ok guys well I'm going to run to the pet store and save the rats.

And then I'm going to the nearest cocaine lab and then a sweat shop and maybe hold a protest against war. Maybe join a dawkins book club or two...

burn down a Vail ski resort...

and after I make all this difference in the world...

the government and rich organizations redo the damage and we're back to square one...

and the 3,457th squirrel gets run over today...

Are you that retarded? I'm just seriously wondering.

[oneandonlyhypnos]

is that all you can say? I already said that we can't stop all suffering. we can do something and if enough people change then society changes. Such things are possible, but with an attitude like that of course not. Yeah many people get run over every day too. I once saved a kid that would otherwise got run over. So because so many other kids die I should have let that kid die? I made a difference that day. i thought you were deeper then that. wonder what made you like this

[CoffeesIsBack]

No, it's good, morally speaking, that you saved the child. It's just the line of human to animal to reminding me of someone going after a spider with bug spray and the other person going "NO, DON'T DO IT. LET HIM LIVE!"

[oneandonlyhypnos]

and if it were a cat i should let it be run over, or would it be morally good to save the cat?

when it comes to animal ehtics, insects, spiders and so on don't count...(in principle) if you are interested in that, i wrote a blogpost about in on my blog regadring inverterbrates, animal ethics, steve sapontzis, ... you can find it via my profile.

[CoffeesIsBack]

"Micro-organisms can't feel", says who? You cannot know that for a fact, therefore, it can have the same value as any animal or human.

[oneandonlyhypnos]

says science because they don't have a brain, nervous system or anything else that makes us capable of feeling. basic science. humans are animals by the way

[CoffeesIsBack]

That cannot be known without further question. You're drawing insignificant lines in the sand....

[oneandonlyhypnos]

what? we can't now that we need a nervous system to transport stimuli to a brain to feel pain (sensations in the brain through an electro-chemical process)???

[EcoLogicality]

I personally believe that microorganisms can feel, and because they have a will to live, they do not want to die. However, that wont change the fact that we uncontrollably kill trillions of them each day. The point is that we must take responsibility for the things we CAN control, like standing by while helpless animals are slaughtered, and live shortened lives because they were brought into this planet by us, and genetically modified to be food. A lot of that is just not right in my opinion.

[TheMorbidAtheist]

its not about what you personally believe, ecologically

its about the logical necessity of them feeling the pain

They havent evolved enough to have a nervous system and evolution hasnt made it an advantage for them to feel pain, their life spans are just too short. They are just programmed to do their thing. That is not to say they dont feel discomfort when missing a leg

but then again, if they DID feel pain, that should not mean we cant reduce suffering we CAN see, which is what you are saying

[EcoLogicality]

See but that's exactly what I'm saying, even if they did feel pain, there is nothing we can do about it, but we should reduce any kind of suffering that we can prevent. If you argue that, you're saying there is no point in preventing suffering, and I'll have to make you suffer. ;)

[TheMorbidAtheist]

I'll be the first one to say that reducing suffering is the most important thing to do in life

[oneandonlyhypnos]

I hear ya!

[EcoLogicality]

Yeah absolutely. Kudos man

[TheMorbidAtheist]

micro-organisms CANT feel, because they dont have a nervous system

and even if they DID, that should NOT enable you to create more harm by eating animals you idiot

two wrongs dont make a right

[CoffeesIsBack]

Is it ok to burn every forest out there? Most people say no while it happens anyway. If you don't make a wooden bird house because you think it's wrong to cut down trees, that doesn't stop the deforrestation of the planet. I'm sorry to break it to you, but your personal choices in your little bubble do not matter.

(cont...)

[oneandonlyhypnos]

I know that my personal choices don't do much, a group action on the other hand is a different matter. but it has to start somewhere. the same for the habitat. you care about it? do something about it. don't say you can't change it (because then you are part of the problem). try to change it by speaking up and trying to reduce your impact in such a way that other people can easily follow the example. small contributions by many add up more.

[CoffeesIsBack]

And if Gary likes the idea that he's making a difference with that crap, bless his heart.

I can't bring myself to such a self-indulgent delusion. I see the bearing forces outside my control, and they are central; not me.

[oneandonlyhypnos]

why would it be crap to try and make a difference? yes, there are many forces out of my control (and yours). doesn't mean i don't fight them. to never have tried is worse then to loose the fight.

[CoffeesIsBack]

Suffering is a fact that they are denying. Because an animal doesn't die or get eaten by the hand of a human does not mean it wouldn't have otherwise or in a more gruesome form in the wild. It's not wrong to eat an animal. Factory farms are a part of this culture because it debases and reduces numerically.

(cont...)

[oneandonlyhypnos]

You don't know if an animal would have been killed in the wild. you know an animal is killed if you do it. To prevent that suffering is simple: don't do it. If i don't kill another human being I can say that he is going to suffer and die anyway...so it wouldn't matter if I killed him yes or no...so I can do it, perhaps he would suffer more in a car accident than by my hands when i smash his head in with a brick...makes perfect sense right?

[CoffeesIsBack]

I'm not saying it's the 'reason' to kill and eat animals, but that it is no worse on the scale of the universe, and that even when trying to avoid 'pain' and 'suffering' as much as possible, it is unavoidable by default.

Just as one day I will suffer and die, yet I live. There is no reason or purpose....we just keep on...

The vegetables you eat very well could be conscious and there could be a god....

but you can avoid the possibilities, in fact, you must....or there would be no rest..

[oneandonlyhypnos]

no the vegetables couldn't be and aren't concious. they don't have the capability to be conscious. to me this is the same as saying that there just as well could be pink flying elephants. the mistake you make is that you take purely theoretical concepts from philosophy and draw them out of proportions. example: it is not because we can debate the question: are we dreaming or are we awake, that this means that we can't know this. this isn't the intention either of such a debate,

[oneandonlyhypnos]

cont: you are making a beginners mistake in philosophy in this way. there is a big difference in the theoretical discussions and the actually reality. No philosopher is actually going to claim that we can't know that we are dreaming or that we can't know that we are just figments of his imagination. it is a thought experiment, not reality. the fact is: we know we are awake and i know you exist, but how do I defend this in a theoretical discussion...that is the issue

[oneandonlyhypnos]

and on the suffering thing: i agree that it is unavoidable...both humans and other animals suffer and we will all suffer and eventually die. that is true. but that doesn't mean we can't try to reduce suffering people or other animals.

the fact that we can't stop all habitat destruction doesn't mean that we don't need to bother to try and do something about it.

[ocurro]

@oneandonlyhypnos keep on saying that and everything people will care about is saving stray kittens and puppies, overlooking the main real problem.

not a good vegan argument, methinks.

[TheMaleWithNoName]

Good.

What's the song?

[oneandonlyhypnos]

thanks...

song: evil clack by Morsel

[TheMaleWithNoName]

Thanks

[jedimasterbooboo]

Yeah she really messed up.