A lot of these comments are so literalist that they miss the point entirely. Of course, the
AA founders were indoctrinated since childhood in specific Christian theology, so
naturally they perceived their experiences as evidences of that faith.
I am a secular humanist atheist; I have no problem whatever with AA, because I have had the same experiences that these men had and imagined were god-given. I don’t.
I knew my days in AA were numbered when I walked into a meeting one night and realized that I would have to decline the chair's request for me to read "How it Works" since I couldn't stand up at a podium and tell an outright lie. Still sad about a lot of the friends I left behind in AA but so glad to be away from that bullshit.
I am a fully-recovered alcoholic ~ transformed by the simple design for living outlined in simple steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. Living this Way life on a daily basis creates personal transformation ~ a psychic change. Self-awareness and emotional intelligence increase and grow exponentially. Thinking becomes clear and inspired. Navigating challenging life events is successfully done because the mind operates from a place of calm. Meditation is key. Love and Service, AA works if you work it.
@blamethenile I admire Hitler's self-aggrandizing in Mein Kampf, and many proverbs in the Koran, and am not a Nazi or a Muslim. I admire and endorse literature-especially things against my status quo. I was assuming you had bad experiences to have gone this far to express disdain. I apologize if that assumption offended. I'm generally sorry for any negative experiences on the road of recovery. I simply don't understand when people attack things they find useless, unnecessary, or non-existent.
@karmalevel Great! Me, too. And without A/NA as well. Nothing within oneself, shy of absolute self-disclosure, seems to get all the addicts I've known to a place where they can have a great life-or gather control of their mind. I don't know why you would think I was stating that you couldn't have an outstanding life, or find the tools to do so, without AA. No program can force a a cognitive change.
I'm sorry for whatever experiences you had @ A/NA that created such outwardly expressed anger. I'm not a member. I just don't understand how complete self-honesty, which is what I saw How it Works was about, could yield this much hate. It's not necessary for mere sobriety, which is where many stop & think they've won, but it is for recovery... where knowing oneself & practicing transparency 'til it doesn't hurt gives one peace-inner & outer, tolerance, & the tools to build a stellar life.
@kgshurley If you are a non-member, your admiration and endorsement of the program strikes me as a bit curious. I find your blanket apology for what you assume our experiences in AA to have been equally odd. Mike BD
@kgshurley An assumption, but perhaps too many funerals? At first one may feel that their anger towards attempts at conversion to a completely unscientific (& unsuccessful) palace of dogma is just a personal grudge....then the funerals begin. People end up homeless because their parents are told that they're "in denial" not because they stopped using drugs, but because they "rejected the program". Stigmatized as "addicts" or "drunks" & abandoned, how do most like that turn out? D-E-A-D.
Great film. I actually have said how chapter 5 was full of shit. Exactly the phrase you are quoting here. Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed out path. " Gunthar 2k said on my blogradio show once. Rarely have we seen a person thoroughly follow our path. IN a room of 100, how many have done a 12 step call on a wet drunk in the last 10 years?
I've been an AA member for 28 years and all but the first few months I've been continually sober (and clean too). I've found that if you follow what the program advises it's a good chance you'll stay sober. BUT, and it's a big BUT, you have to want to stay sober. I've had many times during my sober life that I've changed and questioned my beliefs in myself, God, AA, etc. But, the bottom line is that I was a hopeless alcoholic, addict, criminal who found that the AA program works for me.
@bwoodward0949 I reject the dogma and doctrine of AA totally, and have been drug-and-alcohol-free for nearly seventeen years, and nicotine-free for over six. I have known countless people who have embraced AA whole-heartedly, and have watched them grow increasingly warped, delusional, and hopeless. The longer they stay, the more magical their thinking becomes. Mike BD
@blamethenile You're free to do whatever you like regarding staying sober. I dont know anyone in AA/NA who is against people finding their own way to happiness. I dont understand why you cant allow those of us in the program the same tolerance. As far as dogma is concerned, AA is about the least, or should I say broadest of "dogmatic" beliefs, ie., "God, as we understand him". Many of us are or have been agnostics or atheists and some still are. Most people believe in something..
@bwoodward0949 The only way I have ever found to stay sober is to refrain from drinking, something AA mentions only in passing. God or Higher Power is mentioned well over one hundred times in AA's basic text, yet abstinence isn't discussed at all. The chapter "We Agnostics" (written by the founders of the 12-step religion) is no more than a primer on bait and switch religious conversion, as is AA in general. Mike BD
@blamethenile Duh, if you dont drink you will stay sober. Not the easiest thing to do if your an alcoholic. If it was just that easy there would never be a problem with alcoholism in the world. We Agnostics is a personal account of many of the founders of the AA program. At any rate, it works for me. I'm no Christian, Jew, Muslim or any other organised religion. I do believe there is some kind of higher power in the Universe. If you dont that's no skin off my teeth.
@bwoodward0949 Yes, if you wish to stay sober, don't drink. Glad I was able to drive that point home for you. How can anything be a personal account of many? That is a contradiction in terms, one of AA's many strong suits. Mike BD
@blamethenile The fact that I was an alcoholic and a drug addict is the EXACT thing that made it so difficult to quit.
Did you ever think that maybe you arent (werent) an alcoholic? Or, did you think that millions of people with alcoholic symptoms were just "weak"? Why could you stay sober when over thousands of years others drunks couldnt?
Maybe you are super cool, extra neat, far more brave, and otherwise smarter than the average human?
@bwoodward0949 I am neither cool, neat, brave nor smart when I drink. Hence, I don't drink. When I drink, I drink alcoholically. Hence, I don't drink. I used to drink alcoholically. Now, I don't drink at all. Thus, I am an ex-alcoholic. It may very well be difficult to quit, but quitting was how I, and countless others approached it. Mike BD
I truly believe it is horrible to trash a fellowship that has helped millions because you do not understand something and do not have the courage to go ask about it yourself. He does say these are the steps we TOOK which are suggested as a program of recovery. If you go to big book meetings you will also know that the first 164 pages of the big book is the program of A.A and if you follow it with and it does say in the big book about a spiritual advisor.
@comadre54 AA true believers also tend to confuse disagreement with ignorance. The three people who wrote this video have a very long, studied and thorough understanding of AA. We believe it is horrible to make outrageous claims of methodology and success for a program which sports a success rate in the single digits. Is there anything in this video which is untrue? Mike
A.A.worked for me. 10 years sober and got my life back. sorry to hear that is didn't work for you but there are those that work these step that are suggested and fine a new life away from drinking and drugging and for that i am forever thankful because they were there for me.
Alcoholics Anonymous are a noxious cult who prey on weak and vulnerable people. People turn up to AA broken, only be told they are defective, disease riddled and that their self-will got them where they are now. That 'God' is their only salvation, to never trust yourself again, because you're a defective, disease riddled maggot. Even athiests believe in something.. apparently ~ they believe there is no God... I've forgotten what my sponsor spewed after that line
@bLuDcL0T as it was over 3 1/2 years ago since i last attended a meeting. 5 years clean and sober now. If you even hear yourself say in your own head 'he wasn't a real alcoholic', then you've probab;y completely lost the ability to think for yourself, because you've fully indoctrinated into the cult of lies, where people are too affraid to actually speak their minds, regurgitate the same old bullshit everyones heard a thousand times. Just for the record - I believe in self empowerment, and trust
The steps work every time...the only folks who cannot recover using the steps are folks who are way to smart for A.A or are not capable of being honest with themselves and another. Keep coming back or not! If you can stop drinking without the steps, and I am sure there are folks who can. Do it and enjoy your life :)
@steptaker1 AA true believers generally confuse disagreement with dishonesty. Also, AA is the ONLY movement I have ever heard of which makes dumbing-down a requirement for success. Mike
@LordInksworth There is no accounting for taste, I guess. I'm hard-pressed to come up with something about AA which does NOT anger me. The co-owner here selects the music, btw.
It seems I received several from the same person and honestly what do you expect from the indoctrinated?
You're right though James Dean isn't quite right, Now I'm thinking Neo from the Matrix, your world simply isn't real. AA is as imperfect as anything but this construction of yours is over the top.
Here's some statistics from the National Institute of Mental Health. Disorders With Increased Risk of Drug Abuse Antisocial personality disorder15.5% Manic episode 14.5% Schizophrenia 10.1% Panic disorder 04. 3% Major depressive episode04.1% Obsessive-compulsive disorder 03.4% Phobias02.1% Two things are noteworthy I believe 1) while a 12 step program may be helpful for these people addressing these as separate issue is essential 2) They may not understand or misinterpret the program
1) There are a lot of secondary issues that come in with members other than alcohol that need to be addresses separately in places other than AA. If they can get them addressed AA can be very helpful for the addiction problem.
2) When many people with these issues have an unsatisfactory experience in AA you have to ask if it's their perception or reality. Especially around OCD I wonder how many people posting here deal with issues like these.
OCD--Is that like when someone gets on a board they disagree with, and just can't stop posting? Of the 101 comments on this vid, 36 belong to you. Mike
Sorry, It's just that I've been watching this go on for so long I guess I can't help myself. Besides, what the problem?I feel you're misrepresenting something I have some experience with. I would be remiss if I just stood by and said nothing wouldn't I?
No problem here, just hard to not notice. I feel we have very accurately represented something I have a great deal of experience with. Yours is just another example of the AA belief that anyone who disagrees with or challenges the dogma is either mentally ill, in denial, or evil. You picked crazy. Given my experience with AA, I would be remiss if I didn't involve myself in these activities. Mike
I understand, true believers one and all, I wouldn't use the word crazy, just misdirected. I'll be the first to say AA is far from perfect but nothing like you describe here. I don't buy into a lot of what's in the book, most people don't, I just follow the sprit of personal inventory, being responsible ,a daily spot check and helping others. The fellowship is a great support system especially when you start, If I ever saw the things you describe I wouldn't wonder what's going on in you heads.
Counting your phorph userids, you have told us hundreds of times that you have never seen any of what we have described in our vids. I can attribute that to only three things: denial, cognitive dissonance, or aching for a game. Mike
I didn't know what a userid was until I just recently figured it out. Clearly there can't be that many people that contest your point of view, therefore they're doubling up. Add to that the only thing that could account for any disagreement with your opinion is denial, cognitive dissonance, or game playing I think you once more proved my point-pigs will fly before Mike and the chorus are mistaken and his detractors have any sort of valid point, no delusions of grandeur here, my mistake
I'm sure you have valid points, but are just having a hard time articulating them. Flying pigs and delusions of grandeur aside, I'm sure you will continue trying to make them. Mike
Let's see, if you defends AA you are indoctrinated, in denial, looking for a fight , somebody else or now inarticulate. I've seen you use all the others before but the last one is new, congrats on a little variety. Of coarse there is no chance in the world the AA is so much more than you give it credit for and your characterization of it is faulty. Obviously it's us. Come on Wilbur get real
If I am defending AA, someone has spoofed my userid. You haven't defended AA. You have merely, albeit repetitively, denied the validity of our criticisms on the basis of never seen any of them in your AA experience. From where I am, that limits the possibilities to the ones we have already outlined. Mike
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I've allowed for the possibility of abuse occurring in the rooms, in the exact same way it may occur anywhere. It is in no way endemic of AA, it's the result of individuals actions and they should be held responsible for them.
"Abuses" comprise a very small portion of our over-all criticisms of AA. This vid, for example, doesn't even mention abuse. Forty-some posts into it, and you have yet to address anything contained in the vid. Mike
Sure I did, three days ago "Another misnomer is summarized in this mission statement on your web page . "We specialize in challenging a particular group that has duped most of the world into thinking it helps people" This seems to me to be extremely smug, arrogant black and white thinking. AA clearly helps people, millions over the decades by your own estimates." Getting help in the program is not the same for everyone.Show up and try things until you find what works, that's how most of us do it
You stated an opinion, which I didn't believe required a response. You think we are smug, arrogant black and white thinkers. What sort of response did you expect? AA clearly helps very few, but we have already covered that elsewhere. Most people show up, then leave. We have covered that elsewhere, as well. Mike
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AA clearly helps very few- the 95% thing, really? There is no evidence supporting that. The only data supporting 95% is the number of members who relapse before getting sober. You can't figure who left unless you do personal follow through and that's impossible with an anonymous survey, you can't survey people who are not there. You cover a lot of things with absolute authority but a lot of it doesn't hold up, that's the problem. Even if it just 50,000/year that stay that's not a few, it's more.
There is that red -1 thing again. Please cite your evidence that 95% relapse before getting sober. Very few old-timers I know, and I know many, relapsed. 50k out of a million isn't very impressive. Mike
The tri annual survey you site asks two relevant questions.
1) When did you first arrive at AA? and 2) When was your last drink? 95% of respondents admit to drinking after coming to AA but they are there taking the survey so they haven't left. Most people who come to AA for the first time don't know what they want including if they want to stop drinking. Many more than 5% do stick around to put together more than a year, 15% to 20% based on the numbers I see.
That survey was in 1989. And, no one is idnetified. Get a real auditor. give the auditor the raw data. Have the auditor analyze the data. The, something credible can emerge.
Thanks dix, that's exactly my point. I don't need data to involve myself with most of the things in my life. I try things out and if they work I stick with them. I do my own research, I prefer that to auditors and their credible analysis. I think it's great that you guys don't have any use for AA, get er done somewhere else. That fact that you quote bogus stats or site isolated incidents as the norm is, if think, a problem.
How very precious of me? I try to be fair, AA is an imperfect program populated by imperfect people in an imperfect world, stuff does happen. For the vast majority of people that stick around though and give it a shot, and the BB again and again only asks for an honest effort, life does gets better. Most of us don't buy every thing that the program or each other sells, that would be silly. The big safety net is everyone else leaves. We both agree on that, we just don't agree on the percentage.
If the 12 step programs where even 1/10 as diabolical, dysfunctional or dangerous as you say then the states that mandate attendance would have drowned in court cases a long time ago and would have not only abandoned AA as a treatment option they would have shut it down. The states that have ceased to make people go have done so on the grounds that it's unconstitutional and honestly I'm not a fan of forcing people to do anything. You're case against AA is massively over stated.
AA itself "misrepresents its program" by pretending to the newcomer that it is simply a support group for stopping drinking. Accusing anybody who has concerns or criticisms about AA of being deluded is pretty contemptible.
In way of fairness let me say I have no issue with you guys sharing you POV online or anywhere else, I think it's great the way you let me chime in. I also think it's appropriate that if you have real issues with AA you voice them and get your needs met elsewhere. I don't believe you can in any way threaten AA, if it was half the monster you claim then the court cases would have mounted past tolerance long ago and the state would have taken action. Anonymity is a principle and not a legal status
Another misnomer is summarized in this mission statement on your web page . "We specialize in challenging a particular group that has duped most of the world into thinking it helps people." This seems to me to be extremely smug, arrogant black and white thinking. AA clearly helps people, millions over the decades by your own estimates. I concede that is hasn't been useful to the choir here but that doesn't justify the mean spirited, misleading and misguided way you mount your challenge.
OB, your diatribe is simply silly. It describes you and you alone. You have no idea how many AA helps. And, you know that you do not know. What is your game?
I know that after years of being in the program I've never seen anything like you describe here as standard practice. I know that most people who make an effort seem to get something worth while back. I know that if anyone who doesn't feel comfortable in the rooms leaves. Not everyone treats everyone else in the rooms well, it's true. Though abuse like you guys describe, and the obsession you seem to have with it, can't help make me wonder that maybe the problem is an organic one and not AA.
I realize this is a old boys thing going on here, you're just here for like minded voices. You can't just disagree with my point of view, My "diatribe" must be "silly" or I sound like every other of the "Indoctrinated" to you guys. That fact that it's all or nothing with you is, I think, is a red flag. You obsess on AA in a way even the program Nazis don't. You are dismissive,patronizing or rude to any contrary point of view, reasonable or not.
One of the great things -- seriously -- about the internet is that anonymous comedians such as "OB Stranger" can type whatever bilge that they see fit to type.
Your anonymous diatribe is silly. You are only here to play the fool.
The internet is a wonderful thing for comedians such as myself. Be warned though, dix will not suffer fools like me gladly. He says says it like it is. How is it? Well, with me and anyone else who challenges his conceptions we're all beneath contempt and he just manages to tolerate us but not with out putting us in our place. We're all wrong and he's always right. How convenient and more than a little suspicious. You must be bucking for your own show on Fox.
Since dual diagnosis tend to self medicate and often over medicate themselves they are over represented in the 12 step community compared to the population at large. it's impossible to say but I've heard by as much as 500%. It does make sense. When these people who deal with issues like depression, schizophrenia or suicide state their cases you have to look really carefully at what they say. It's not an assault against their integrity but it is reasonable to be judicious.
I agree, You can say two things about dual diagnosis.
1)AA is not the place to address emotional and mental disorders. It may be helpful for addiction issues but any additional problems need to be tackled elsewhere.
2)People with those issues can't help but bring them into a program. Unless they have an informed, educated support group to help them see past their own filters they may very well misunderstand what the program is or what their part is in it.I'm sure many issues here stem from this
@OBStranger The "there are those too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders" statement, read in every meeting everywhere, refutes your first assertion diametrically. AA says it IS the place to address emotional and mental disorders. Assertion two is thereby rendered moot. Mike
"but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."True they are welcome in the program, but their success hinges on being honest. Many suffering form those kind of issues need extra help in overcoming their handicap.If one is suffering from paranoia or other disorders that render them victims and others abusers they will never be able to see clearly enough to grasp that "honesty" necessary for the program to work, it's not their fault.With some outside help I've seen miracles
Again, I'm not saying real abuse doesn't take place in the fellowship. No more so though than it does in a therapists office or family. My point is that the kind of black and white,all wrong all the time characterization of AA I see here sounds like an issue with perspective, the kind you might expect from those who have a problem with balance is not honesty.
The conclusion here seems to be in part that AA is dangerous. I contend that though poop happens in AA it doesn't in any greater degree than anywhere else people gather for fellowship, assistance or personal growth. My conclusion is AA is comparatively as safe as a bar room, college dorm, military base, therapist office or family den. Judging AA in a vacuum doesn't seem fair at all. I believe that's on point
If there are two million people in AA and 95% leave in the first year does that mean forty million people pass through the doors every year? Let's see that means 1-14 people in America go to an AA meeting every year, wow I wish I had stock in that, or at least the coffee concession. Even if it's just a fraction of that those numbers numbers just don't wash.
@OBStranger Nope, a million pass through each year, while 50k stay. Do that for twenty years, and a million have stayed. The numbers wash perfectly. Your premise is flawed. Mike
AA has no Success rate. Unfortunately that's what you get with an anonymous program. I'm basing my opinion on it entirely on my years of observations. Ugliness does happening but it's very much the exception, I'm willing to admit my POV is subjective and extend a live and let live olive branch, I really do wish all well. The AA All lies, all the time view I find here is, I think, a child's perspective-over simplified and over stated.
I've been to meeting all over and it is true that they are all an expression of their area. If a meeting is both autonomous and abusive then that's a reflection of the people and community, not AA. The reason that the meeting are autonomous is that AA pushes personal responsibility. We may be able to support one and other but we answer for ourselves, we can't delegate that to anyone or anything else including AA.
@OBStranger The only thing I have ever noticed AA pushing is more AA. Whenever the wheels fall off, a la Midtown, the cry of "That's not AA!!!" goes up, and the blame is placed everywhere except where it goes, which is to the faith-healing movement which is without oversight, qualification, or recourse. Mike
au contraire, When a person acts contrary to the word and spirit of something that they have associated themselves with then they are responsible, plain and simple. I'm probably a little brutal on this issue of personal responsibility, almost Darwinian. You screw up, you answer for it. AA does give it's members a lot of rope and some of them do hang themselves. There is nothing in the program that implies abuse to self or others, if one is abusive then that's a choice they answer for.
@OBStranger Your personal credo has little bearing on the reality which is AA. Like I said, AA is without oversight, qualification, or recourse. How you personally feel about that doesn't change it one iota. Mike
How do I feel? I think that what ever the intention of the founders the result has been a loose affiliation of people who have a common problem. I think the fellowship is so big and so diverse that the result is that there is something for everyone, Just the fact you can go and not be alone is huge. I really don't see many taking themselves or the BB so seriously that zaniness ensues, admittedly there are exceptions but there are pricks everywhere. I don't see the doctrine as a problem.
Oh BTW there is recourse, you can leave, which you claim everyone does anyway. At the same time multitudes are brainwashed and manipulated to stay against there will. I don't think you can have it both ways either that rats are leaving the ship or we're stocking the compound with guns. Oh wait you can do that in a over simplified black and white world, things can be all bad all the time. Gotcha
"Why don't you just shut up and leave" the problem with that video is that I seldom see anyone misused in AA. People who stick around benefit and everyone else leaves. When You claim that AA is primarily destructive I think of two things either 1) you live somewhere were there is a lot of screwed up people or 2) there is a perceptional problem going on, lot's of chemical imbalances passing through the room. Who knows, I just feel after getting so much from the program I should weigh in.
"You are not helpng yourself any by impugning the integrity of others." Some of the most important people in my life are dealing with issue associated with depression and perceptional problems, it has nothing to do with integrity. It's a separate issue from alcoholism. Coming from me it's not an insult but it might be a factor with some of these stories.
I feel in order to be fair I must admit that I realize that an AA meeting could be taken over by a group of assholes. Unfortunately that's a by product of each group is autonomous, AA is not like Mcdonalds there is no HQ making each group conform to a standardized vision of what the book means. It's a first amendment thing and freedom is sometimes messy. Water usually finds it's own level and those that don't fit in one meeting find another of a different solution. AA is in no way this sinister
@OBStranger I've been to thousands of AA meetings, and I will stand by the McDonalds analogy. Same format, same texts, same dogma, same rhetoric, same personalities, same prayers, same everything. Mike
It's amusing that you sound exactly like the people you describe as going to AA. You paint things in broad black and white strokes, you're dismissive of someone else's experience unless it supports you own and you've created a boogieman of something you can't find a use for. AA is a cross section of the general population2,000,000 are not having anything like the same experience in the rooms and 99.9 percent of the time if it doesn't work for someone they leave.Things tend to work themselves out
@OBStranger It's amusing (not really) that you sound exactly like other supposedly pro-AAs who roll in here from time to time. Which user id were you using three days ago? Mike
Thoroughly working the program for me seems to involve showing up, admitting I have a problem, finding some like minded people who seem to be trustworthy, roll up my sleeves and do some work. Which may include screwing up. I've never been coerced or manipulated in any way. I'm an action guy the god thing I can take or leave. My friends in the program are well read, open minded and skeptical people. We come because what's difficult by ourselves is fun and stimulating together.
Oh and once more, your claim of a 95% failure rate is flatly not true. I don't know you so Im assuming it's just an honest mistake. I've seen those surveys and there is simply no questions in it that in any way could establish a claim like that. I've seen statements where AA itself supposedly claims it attendance is declining but I've never seen any evidence supporting that. It's an anonymous program, those surveys are anonymous and the follow up, three years later, is generic and anonymous.
@OBStranger Nope, no mistake. It has been true in my area for the sixteen years I have been paying attention. AA's membership statistics bear out a similar rate. As for the surveys and the conclusions arrived at, AA itself said 5%. Mike
Once more I've seen the survey and there is no questions that in anyway could ascertain a 95% failure rate. If someone in AA says it does I respectfully disagree, which is not in any way uncommon in the rooms. 95% of members trying to stay sober for the first time do relapse, that's it.
@OBStranger Nowhere do the survey results indicate that 95% of members trying to stay sober for the first time relapse. Is that you, quickcap/wienerout/etc. ? Mike
I always said that I would never sign up for any social network but a friend of mine turned me onto you guys and after watching for a while I had to join in. It's amazing that everyone that sounds different than you sounds that same. Do you think we all like fried chicken and have a natural sense of rhythm? It's simply not possible that you overstated you case and there are as many different kinds of people in AA as there are catholics, women and mexican is it?
You guys really like the indignant thing but your POV is over the top. The program, mostly the steps, is review your life up until now, clean up your mess and learn to do a daily spot check. It's old school, An unexamined life is not worth living sez Socrates everything else, including the fellowship and BB are just tools and guides. we don't govern, just suggestions. You've really missed the point re rule #62. It's all a group of people with a similar problem doing their best and sharing notes
@OBStranger Indignant? Hardly, just commentators on what we have seen and learned. The AA fanatics preach rule 62, but have a hard time adhering to it. Mike
That's a point of view. I don't find the percentage of people in the rooms that take themselves to seriously any larger than those out of the rooms. When and where I do find them I generally shine them on. I admit that people abuse people everywhere, AA is no better of worse than anywhere else. What ever condition you find yourself in you are responsible for who and what you trust. Honesty, open mindedness and willingness are all you need, nothing is said about obedience or dogma.
My point of view is so unworthy I'm playing the fool, Uh Huh. I've admitted the rooms are no more perfect than the people that attend them. That said I've seen waaay more good than harm done in them,that is honestly my experience. All I'm saying is that based on those experiences your observations, while not totally without basis, are hugely over stated.The things you describe as AA happen no more or less in the rooms than anywhere else people congregate.I find it all hyperbolic and small-minded
They told me I had to change everything about myself, how the hell can that be possible. The whole AA thing is to decimate your Self and get you into Groupthink. It is cultish
Pretty hard to say if AA works or not. AA doesnt have an accurate membership list. Sobriety dates are taken on faith. There is no verification of sobreity, None of these can be verified: retention rate; sobriety dates; actual membership. Who knows if it works or not?
This is great. Instead of being a misreable drunk. You use this type of energy to justify you alcoholism. You dont want to follow the path and there no other way for you to quit drinking. So keep reading the book. You just answered your question. Alcoholics are very stubran and objective(sound like someone). So Bill suggest things. Real drunks like us listan better this way. Keep coming back.
Check out our videos "The narcissistic nature of Alcoholics Anonymous" and "Ego Deflation In Depth". They were both written with folks like you in mind. Thanks for the post. Mike
If AA works for someone, more power to them. It's voluntary (unless you are compelled by law to go, which is a result of your own criminal actions.) It is a cult in the same way say, the Methodist Church is a cult-but in my estimation much more benign. To make logical arguments against AA or its text is comparable to making logical arguments against the church and the Bible-if someone believes it, factual arguments and logic are irrelevant.
According to AA's own web-site, over 60% of all new attendees are initially coerced by outside agencies, something never encountered in the Methodist Church. Government-sanctioned faith-healing is vastly different than voluntary religious participation/affiliation. Mike
Resentments, well-channeled, have resulted in some of the greatest achievements of history, many of them positive. Only in the 12-step movement are they demonized to the point of utter mindlessness. Mike
Your argument makes no sense. Any chance of recovery is much higher than those who fail. Wilson readily admitted no one had ever worked the steps when he wrote them, so they had no record of success whatsoever. Seventy years later, that record still isn't so impressive. Mike
My father is close to 30 years sober. Both my brothers recovered. My sister recovered through AA as well. And I am gleaning much from these folks.
I am not without reservations, but why would anybody waste so much time attacking AA? How about pitching your own ideas on sobriety.
People like me who are not exactly enamored with AA would like to know. I seriously doubt you have devoted that much effort toward an alternative. It's easy to just tear down.
"Waste so much time attacking AA" indicatates a certain bias. On your last visit here, I directed you to a site which contains links to countless alternative approaches to dealing with substance abuse, and you dismissed that effort immediately. Again, the links tab on the Orange Papers home page contains alternatives, both face-to-face and online, for folks unhappy or unsuccessful in AA. My personal choice? I don't drink, ever, at all, no matter what. 100% effective for over 15 years. Mike
15 years! That's great. I would have liked to know more about your sobriety over your views on another method of recovery. And yes, the links that weren't broken were informative. Again thanks.
Just know that none of the listed alternatives offered services for free in my area. AA does, so that's my only connection to AA. And it's a fact that within AA, there are folks with long-term sobriety just like you.
And not all of those are 12 step Nazis. My "sponsor" is one such man. He keeps it real.
SMART recovery, something I recommend to people who are convinced that they need a support group, offers on-line support groups, chats, and forums for free. These days, just about everyone has on-line options.
I know lots of decent folks in AA. That has never been an issue here. I still attend AA, although for different reasons than most. Mike
I just checked out the AA group on Facebook & if you read through the discussions the AA advice that they give it is pretty pathetic. A lot of: go to a mtg, pray, get a sponsor, & do the program it works! Then people go on to give their AA advice to people? You can see how AA destroys people's relationships, but AA's can't see it. I am so glad that I no longer seek solutions to recovery inside the madness of AA.
You are supposed to stop drinking on your own. That is one dirty little secret of AA.
AA is run by, and serves the interests of, the old timer. You aree xpected to quit drinking. How you do that, and why you do that, is a personal matter. And, not the business of AA.
Oct. is the month I got out of AA 2 years ago. I got a sponsor, worked the steps 3xs, attended mtgs: listened, listened, listened, was encouraged to share stupid stuff about my past to be laughed at, speaker's mtgs, potlucks, picnics, yard sales, helped old-timers w/ cheap/free labor, gave to the basket, worked counter, worked w/ Salvation Army & rehabs, got ripped on w/out warning often, sponsored people w/ serious problems, tried harder, gave freely, pray & meditate: it was a complete waste
If AA likes to quote Einstein's definition of insanity is doing the same thing over & over then AA ought to look at their own program: 12 step circles around communiction triangles that breakdown forever. Right before I left an old-timer tried to tell me I wasn't doing "it" right? AA serves no purpose in relationship to wanting to live sober.
I did everything too. Was so very unhappy. Got tired of being put down. I didn't realize being mean was a part of being sober. And no, I am not thin skinned. I used to be so gung ho.
The old timers were arrogant and smug.
Very few were " happy, joyous, and free".
Why would I come back again and again to be abused? I wised up. Who needs that crap?
Fail at what? I've certainly seen a lot of people fail at the alleged purpose of aa (stopping drinking and staying stopped). The circular illogic that aa specialises in would no doubt say that none of those people tried hard enough to "follow the path", whatever that's supposed to mean. What I think the statement really boils down to is making the illogical and platitudinous statement that people rarely fail if they succeed.
Who in the hell wants to find "the god of the preachers" or any other imaginary bullshit. I'll take logic, reason, critical thinking, truth and reality, over ignorance and bliss any day. Religion, in any form, may truly be the "opiate of the masses" but I'll pass on that dope and stay sober minded!
For Wilson to have made that claim, "Rarely have we seen a person fail," shows his ignorance of statistics and data analysis. You see, when Bill Wilson wrote the so-called "Big Book" he was reportedly 3 years sober and AA was aprox. 3 years old. How could he possibly draw any real scientific conclusions from a 3 year observation?
From what evidence we have seen, Wilson wasn't ignorant of his statistics and data, but rather, willfully dishonest about them. Thus started a long tradition which continues through today. Mike
A lot of these comments are so literalist that they miss the point entirely. Of course, the
AA founders were indoctrinated since childhood in specific Christian theology, so
naturally they perceived their experiences as evidences of that faith.
I am a secular humanist atheist; I have no problem whatever with AA, because I have had the same experiences that these men had and imagined were god-given. I don’t.
gasdaopidfvankewrq 1 month ago
I knew my days in AA were numbered when I walked into a meeting one night and realized that I would have to decline the chair's request for me to read "How it Works" since I couldn't stand up at a podium and tell an outright lie. Still sad about a lot of the friends I left behind in AA but so glad to be away from that bullshit.
stapleremover 4 months ago 3
@stapleremover you are telling my story. Thanks for the post. Mike
blamethenile 4 months ago 2
your an idiot
rick10801 1 month ago
I am a fully-recovered alcoholic ~ transformed by the simple design for living outlined in simple steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. Living this Way life on a daily basis creates personal transformation ~ a psychic change. Self-awareness and emotional intelligence increase and grow exponentially. Thinking becomes clear and inspired. Navigating challenging life events is successfully done because the mind operates from a place of calm. Meditation is key. Love and Service, AA works if you work it.
lcwest1 5 months ago
@blamethenile I admire Hitler's self-aggrandizing in Mein Kampf, and many proverbs in the Koran, and am not a Nazi or a Muslim. I admire and endorse literature-especially things against my status quo. I was assuming you had bad experiences to have gone this far to express disdain. I apologize if that assumption offended. I'm generally sorry for any negative experiences on the road of recovery. I simply don't understand when people attack things they find useless, unnecessary, or non-existent.
kgshurley 6 months ago
@karmalevel Great! Me, too. And without A/NA as well. Nothing within oneself, shy of absolute self-disclosure, seems to get all the addicts I've known to a place where they can have a great life-or gather control of their mind. I don't know why you would think I was stating that you couldn't have an outstanding life, or find the tools to do so, without AA. No program can force a a cognitive change.
kgshurley 6 months ago 2
I'm sorry for whatever experiences you had @ A/NA that created such outwardly expressed anger. I'm not a member. I just don't understand how complete self-honesty, which is what I saw How it Works was about, could yield this much hate. It's not necessary for mere sobriety, which is where many stop & think they've won, but it is for recovery... where knowing oneself & practicing transparency 'til it doesn't hurt gives one peace-inner & outer, tolerance, & the tools to build a stellar life.
kgshurley 6 months ago
@kgshurley If you are a non-member, your admiration and endorsement of the program strikes me as a bit curious. I find your blanket apology for what you assume our experiences in AA to have been equally odd. Mike BD
blamethenile 6 months ago
@kgshurley honey, my life rocks! when I learned that I was in control of my mind with god's help!! no AA
karmalevel 6 months ago
@kgshurley An assumption, but perhaps too many funerals? At first one may feel that their anger towards attempts at conversion to a completely unscientific (& unsuccessful) palace of dogma is just a personal grudge....then the funerals begin. People end up homeless because their parents are told that they're "in denial" not because they stopped using drugs, but because they "rejected the program". Stigmatized as "addicts" or "drunks" & abandoned, how do most like that turn out? D-E-A-D.
LexeconKiddo 4 months ago 2
Great film. I actually have said how chapter 5 was full of shit. Exactly the phrase you are quoting here. Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed out path. " Gunthar 2k said on my blogradio show once. Rarely have we seen a person thoroughly follow our path. IN a room of 100, how many have done a 12 step call on a wet drunk in the last 10 years?
Awesome films!
inwood75 6 months ago
@inwood75 WHAT REALLY HAPPENS IS PROGRESS :-)
chrisvarnum 4 months ago
the "suggestion" is usually "Work the steps or die"
Commonsense11111 7 months ago
@Commonsense11111 Agreed. Mike BD
blamethenile 7 months ago
I've been an AA member for 28 years and all but the first few months I've been continually sober (and clean too). I've found that if you follow what the program advises it's a good chance you'll stay sober. BUT, and it's a big BUT, you have to want to stay sober. I've had many times during my sober life that I've changed and questioned my beliefs in myself, God, AA, etc. But, the bottom line is that I was a hopeless alcoholic, addict, criminal who found that the AA program works for me.
bwoodward0949 9 months ago
@bwoodward0949 I reject the dogma and doctrine of AA totally, and have been drug-and-alcohol-free for nearly seventeen years, and nicotine-free for over six. I have known countless people who have embraced AA whole-heartedly, and have watched them grow increasingly warped, delusional, and hopeless. The longer they stay, the more magical their thinking becomes. Mike BD
blamethenile 9 months ago
@blamethenile You're free to do whatever you like regarding staying sober. I dont know anyone in AA/NA who is against people finding their own way to happiness. I dont understand why you cant allow those of us in the program the same tolerance. As far as dogma is concerned, AA is about the least, or should I say broadest of "dogmatic" beliefs, ie., "God, as we understand him". Many of us are or have been agnostics or atheists and some still are. Most people believe in something..
bwoodward0949 9 months ago
@bwoodward0949 The only way I have ever found to stay sober is to refrain from drinking, something AA mentions only in passing. God or Higher Power is mentioned well over one hundred times in AA's basic text, yet abstinence isn't discussed at all. The chapter "We Agnostics" (written by the founders of the 12-step religion) is no more than a primer on bait and switch religious conversion, as is AA in general. Mike BD
blamethenile 9 months ago
@blamethenile Duh, if you dont drink you will stay sober. Not the easiest thing to do if your an alcoholic. If it was just that easy there would never be a problem with alcoholism in the world. We Agnostics is a personal account of many of the founders of the AA program. At any rate, it works for me. I'm no Christian, Jew, Muslim or any other organised religion. I do believe there is some kind of higher power in the Universe. If you dont that's no skin off my teeth.
bwoodward0949 9 months ago
@bwoodward0949 Yes, if you wish to stay sober, don't drink. Glad I was able to drive that point home for you. How can anything be a personal account of many? That is a contradiction in terms, one of AA's many strong suits. Mike BD
blamethenile 9 months ago
@blamethenile The fact that I was an alcoholic and a drug addict is the EXACT thing that made it so difficult to quit.
Did you ever think that maybe you arent (werent) an alcoholic? Or, did you think that millions of people with alcoholic symptoms were just "weak"? Why could you stay sober when over thousands of years others drunks couldnt?
Maybe you are super cool, extra neat, far more brave, and otherwise smarter than the average human?
bwoodward0949 9 months ago
@bwoodward0949 I am neither cool, neat, brave nor smart when I drink. Hence, I don't drink. When I drink, I drink alcoholically. Hence, I don't drink. I used to drink alcoholically. Now, I don't drink at all. Thus, I am an ex-alcoholic. It may very well be difficult to quit, but quitting was how I, and countless others approached it. Mike BD
blamethenile 9 months ago 2
@blamethenile Good for you. I would hope that you would show the same tolerance for those of us in AA/NA who have quit drinking/using the 12 steps.
That's how countless people just like me have approached it.
bwoodward0949 9 months ago
After getting sober, I had to learn how to live life sober. I took the suggestions and have a much better quaility of. Sorry it didn't work for you.
FUUUZZZY 9 months ago
@FUUUZZZY Don't be sorry. Look at all these great videos we could not have written otherwise. Life is very good. Mike BD
blamethenile 9 months ago
I truly believe it is horrible to trash a fellowship that has helped millions because you do not understand something and do not have the courage to go ask about it yourself. He does say these are the steps we TOOK which are suggested as a program of recovery. If you go to big book meetings you will also know that the first 164 pages of the big book is the program of A.A and if you follow it with and it does say in the big book about a spiritual advisor.
comadre54 10 months ago
@comadre54 AA true believers also tend to confuse disagreement with ignorance. The three people who wrote this video have a very long, studied and thorough understanding of AA. We believe it is horrible to make outrageous claims of methodology and success for a program which sports a success rate in the single digits. Is there anything in this video which is untrue? Mike
blamethenile 10 months ago
Dude! You're not supposed to think. Just obey, not question. Thinking leads to drinking, yannow.
LordKelvin100 11 months ago
A.A.worked for me. 10 years sober and got my life back. sorry to hear that is didn't work for you but there are those that work these step that are suggested and fine a new life away from drinking and drugging and for that i am forever thankful because they were there for me.
aka5296 11 months ago
Alcoholics Anonymous are a noxious cult who prey on weak and vulnerable people. People turn up to AA broken, only be told they are defective, disease riddled and that their self-will got them where they are now. That 'God' is their only salvation, to never trust yourself again, because you're a defective, disease riddled maggot. Even athiests believe in something.. apparently ~ they believe there is no God... I've forgotten what my sponsor spewed after that line
bLuDcL0T 1 year ago
@bLuDcL0T as it was over 3 1/2 years ago since i last attended a meeting. 5 years clean and sober now. If you even hear yourself say in your own head 'he wasn't a real alcoholic', then you've probab;y completely lost the ability to think for yourself, because you've fully indoctrinated into the cult of lies, where people are too affraid to actually speak their minds, regurgitate the same old bullshit everyones heard a thousand times. Just for the record - I believe in self empowerment, and trust
bLuDcL0T 1 year ago
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wantuna 1 year ago
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amishmotorboat 1 year ago
didnt work for me i heard more dead cat storiesdivorce people in meetings are crazy
heartattackdon 1 year ago
The steps work every time...the only folks who cannot recover using the steps are folks who are way to smart for A.A or are not capable of being honest with themselves and another. Keep coming back or not! If you can stop drinking without the steps, and I am sure there are folks who can. Do it and enjoy your life :)
steptaker1 1 year ago
@steptaker1 AA true believers generally confuse disagreement with dishonesty. Also, AA is the ONLY movement I have ever heard of which makes dumbing-down a requirement for success. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
@steptaker1 what are you an aa cop? you don't know shizzle cept i think you're drunk.
love
dexter
vet725 11 months ago
You know the worst thing about your shit videos, Mike? The moronic music. I bet it reflects your personality. Why are you SO angered by AA?
LordInksworth 1 year ago
@LordInksworth There is no accounting for taste, I guess. I'm hard-pressed to come up with something about AA which does NOT anger me. The co-owner here selects the music, btw.
blamethenile 1 year ago
Ohhhh, I got a little red negative one and no one else did, I feel a little like James Dean.
OBStranger 1 year ago
No, you received several. You don't remind me of James Dean. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
It seems I received several from the same person and honestly what do you expect from the indoctrinated?
You're right though James Dean isn't quite right, Now I'm thinking Neo from the Matrix, your world simply isn't real. AA is as imperfect as anything but this construction of yours is over the top.
OBStranger 1 year ago
Nope, not Neo, either. Mr. Ed, maybe. There is no spoon. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
OBStranger 1 year ago
I can't determine what points you are trying to make with these numbers. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
I'm making a couple points
1) There are a lot of secondary issues that come in with members other than alcohol that need to be addresses separately in places other than AA. If they can get them addressed AA can be very helpful for the addiction problem.
2) When many people with these issues have an unsatisfactory experience in AA you have to ask if it's their perception or reality. Especially around OCD I wonder how many people posting here deal with issues like these.
OBStranger 1 year ago
OCD--Is that like when someone gets on a board they disagree with, and just can't stop posting? Of the 101 comments on this vid, 36 belong to you. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
Sorry, It's just that I've been watching this go on for so long I guess I can't help myself. Besides, what the problem?I feel you're misrepresenting something I have some experience with. I would be remiss if I just stood by and said nothing wouldn't I?
OBStranger 1 year ago
No problem here, just hard to not notice. I feel we have very accurately represented something I have a great deal of experience with. Yours is just another example of the AA belief that anyone who disagrees with or challenges the dogma is either mentally ill, in denial, or evil. You picked crazy. Given my experience with AA, I would be remiss if I didn't involve myself in these activities. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
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Hammersley1967 1 year ago
I understand, true believers one and all, I wouldn't use the word crazy, just misdirected. I'll be the first to say AA is far from perfect but nothing like you describe here. I don't buy into a lot of what's in the book, most people don't, I just follow the sprit of personal inventory, being responsible ,a daily spot check and helping others. The fellowship is a great support system especially when you start, If I ever saw the things you describe I wouldn't wonder what's going on in you heads.
OBStranger 1 year ago
Counting your phorph userids, you have told us hundreds of times that you have never seen any of what we have described in our vids. I can attribute that to only three things: denial, cognitive dissonance, or aching for a game. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
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OBStranger 1 year ago
I didn't know what a userid was until I just recently figured it out. Clearly there can't be that many people that contest your point of view, therefore they're doubling up. Add to that the only thing that could account for any disagreement with your opinion is denial, cognitive dissonance, or game playing I think you once more proved my point-pigs will fly before Mike and the chorus are mistaken and his detractors have any sort of valid point, no delusions of grandeur here, my mistake
OBStranger 1 year ago
I'm sure you have valid points, but are just having a hard time articulating them. Flying pigs and delusions of grandeur aside, I'm sure you will continue trying to make them. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
Let's see, if you defends AA you are indoctrinated, in denial, looking for a fight , somebody else or now inarticulate. I've seen you use all the others before but the last one is new, congrats on a little variety. Of coarse there is no chance in the world the AA is so much more than you give it credit for and your characterization of it is faulty. Obviously it's us. Come on Wilbur get real
OBStranger 1 year ago
If I am defending AA, someone has spoofed my userid. You haven't defended AA. You have merely, albeit repetitively, denied the validity of our criticisms on the basis of never seen any of them in your AA experience. From where I am, that limits the possibilities to the ones we have already outlined. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I've allowed for the possibility of abuse occurring in the rooms, in the exact same way it may occur anywhere. It is in no way endemic of AA, it's the result of individuals actions and they should be held responsible for them.
OBStranger 1 year ago
"Abuses" comprise a very small portion of our over-all criticisms of AA. This vid, for example, doesn't even mention abuse. Forty-some posts into it, and you have yet to address anything contained in the vid. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
Sure I did, three days ago "Another misnomer is summarized in this mission statement on your web page . "We specialize in challenging a particular group that has duped most of the world into thinking it helps people" This seems to me to be extremely smug, arrogant black and white thinking. AA clearly helps people, millions over the decades by your own estimates." Getting help in the program is not the same for everyone.Show up and try things until you find what works, that's how most of us do it
OBStranger 1 year ago
You stated an opinion, which I didn't believe required a response. You think we are smug, arrogant black and white thinkers. What sort of response did you expect? AA clearly helps very few, but we have already covered that elsewhere. Most people show up, then leave. We have covered that elsewhere, as well. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
AA clearly helps very few- the 95% thing, really? There is no evidence supporting that. The only data supporting 95% is the number of members who relapse before getting sober. You can't figure who left unless you do personal follow through and that's impossible with an anonymous survey, you can't survey people who are not there. You cover a lot of things with absolute authority but a lot of it doesn't hold up, that's the problem. Even if it just 50,000/year that stay that's not a few, it's more.
OBStranger 1 year ago
There is that red -1 thing again. Please cite your evidence that 95% relapse before getting sober. Very few old-timers I know, and I know many, relapsed. 50k out of a million isn't very impressive. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
The tri annual survey you site asks two relevant questions.
1) When did you first arrive at AA? and 2) When was your last drink? 95% of respondents admit to drinking after coming to AA but they are there taking the survey so they haven't left. Most people who come to AA for the first time don't know what they want including if they want to stop drinking. Many more than 5% do stick around to put together more than a year, 15% to 20% based on the numbers I see.
OBStranger 1 year ago
That survey was in 1989. And, no one is idnetified. Get a real auditor. give the auditor the raw data. Have the auditor analyze the data. The, something credible can emerge.
dix345 1 year ago
Thanks dix, that's exactly my point. I don't need data to involve myself with most of the things in my life. I try things out and if they work I stick with them. I do my own research, I prefer that to auditors and their credible analysis. I think it's great that you guys don't have any use for AA, get er done somewhere else. That fact that you quote bogus stats or site isolated incidents as the norm is, if think, a problem.
It seems vindictive to me so I speak up.
OBStranger 1 year ago
OB, 'you have allowed for the possibility of abuse'. How very precious of you.
dix345 1 year ago
How very precious of me? I try to be fair, AA is an imperfect program populated by imperfect people in an imperfect world, stuff does happen. For the vast majority of people that stick around though and give it a shot, and the BB again and again only asks for an honest effort, life does gets better. Most of us don't buy every thing that the program or each other sells, that would be silly. The big safety net is everyone else leaves. We both agree on that, we just don't agree on the percentage.
OBStranger 1 year ago
Yes, OB it is precious. It amuses me that 'acknowledge' that abuse takes palce, and then you discount that it does take place.
Disagree on the percentage? AA does not know who attends. AA does not know many attend. percentage of what? AA does not know
dix345 1 year ago
If the 12 step programs where even 1/10 as diabolical, dysfunctional or dangerous as you say then the states that mandate attendance would have drowned in court cases a long time ago and would have not only abandoned AA as a treatment option they would have shut it down. The states that have ceased to make people go have done so on the grounds that it's unconstitutional and honestly I'm not a fan of forcing people to do anything. You're case against AA is massively over stated.
OBStranger 1 year ago
OB, you would be much better off not typing anything at all.
dix345 1 year ago
"OCD" rofl
andreasheinz 1 year ago
AA itself "misrepresents its program" by pretending to the newcomer that it is simply a support group for stopping drinking. Accusing anybody who has concerns or criticisms about AA of being deluded is pretty contemptible.
MrTobytwirl 1 year ago 2
In way of fairness let me say I have no issue with you guys sharing you POV online or anywhere else, I think it's great the way you let me chime in. I also think it's appropriate that if you have real issues with AA you voice them and get your needs met elsewhere. I don't believe you can in any way threaten AA, if it was half the monster you claim then the court cases would have mounted past tolerance long ago and the state would have taken action. Anonymity is a principle and not a legal status
OBStranger 1 year ago
Another misnomer is summarized in this mission statement on your web page . "We specialize in challenging a particular group that has duped most of the world into thinking it helps people." This seems to me to be extremely smug, arrogant black and white thinking. AA clearly helps people, millions over the decades by your own estimates. I concede that is hasn't been useful to the choir here but that doesn't justify the mean spirited, misleading and misguided way you mount your challenge.
OBStranger 1 year ago
OB, your diatribe is simply silly. It describes you and you alone. You have no idea how many AA helps. And, you know that you do not know. What is your game?
dix345 1 year ago
I know that after years of being in the program I've never seen anything like you describe here as standard practice. I know that most people who make an effort seem to get something worth while back. I know that if anyone who doesn't feel comfortable in the rooms leaves. Not everyone treats everyone else in the rooms well, it's true. Though abuse like you guys describe, and the obsession you seem to have with it, can't help make me wonder that maybe the problem is an organic one and not AA.
OBStranger 1 year ago
I realize this is a old boys thing going on here, you're just here for like minded voices. You can't just disagree with my point of view, My "diatribe" must be "silly" or I sound like every other of the "Indoctrinated" to you guys. That fact that it's all or nothing with you is, I think, is a red flag. You obsess on AA in a way even the program Nazis don't. You are dismissive,patronizing or rude to any contrary point of view, reasonable or not.
OBStranger 1 year ago
One of the great things -- seriously -- about the internet is that anonymous comedians such as "OB Stranger" can type whatever bilge that they see fit to type.
Your anonymous diatribe is silly. You are only here to play the fool.
dix345 1 year ago
The internet is a wonderful thing for comedians such as myself. Be warned though, dix will not suffer fools like me gladly. He says says it like it is. How is it? Well, with me and anyone else who challenges his conceptions we're all beneath contempt and he just manages to tolerate us but not with out putting us in our place. We're all wrong and he's always right. How convenient and more than a little suspicious. You must be bucking for your own show on Fox.
OBStranger 1 year ago
OB you put yourself in 'your place'.
dix345 1 year ago
Since dual diagnosis tend to self medicate and often over medicate themselves they are over represented in the 12 step community compared to the population at large. it's impossible to say but I've heard by as much as 500%. It does make sense. When these people who deal with issues like depression, schizophrenia or suicide state their cases you have to look really carefully at what they say. It's not an assault against their integrity but it is reasonable to be judicious.
OBStranger 1 year ago
AA is not equipped to deal with dual diagnosis. Dual diagnosis is difficult for professionals. It is next to impossible for a support group like AA.
dix345 1 year ago
I agree, You can say two things about dual diagnosis.
1)AA is not the place to address emotional and mental disorders. It may be helpful for addiction issues but any additional problems need to be tackled elsewhere.
2)People with those issues can't help but bring them into a program. Unless they have an informed, educated support group to help them see past their own filters they may very well misunderstand what the program is or what their part is in it.I'm sure many issues here stem from this
OBStranger 1 year ago
@OBStranger The "there are those too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders" statement, read in every meeting everywhere, refutes your first assertion diametrically. AA says it IS the place to address emotional and mental disorders. Assertion two is thereby rendered moot. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
"but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."True they are welcome in the program, but their success hinges on being honest. Many suffering form those kind of issues need extra help in overcoming their handicap.If one is suffering from paranoia or other disorders that render them victims and others abusers they will never be able to see clearly enough to grasp that "honesty" necessary for the program to work, it's not their fault.With some outside help I've seen miracles
OBStranger 1 year ago
Again, I'm not saying real abuse doesn't take place in the fellowship. No more so though than it does in a therapists office or family. My point is that the kind of black and white,all wrong all the time characterization of AA I see here sounds like an issue with perspective, the kind you might expect from those who have a problem with balance is not honesty.
OBStranger 1 year ago
B the fact that it occurs elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do withe fact that it iccurs at AA. The ssubject at hand is AA. Stay on task.
dix345 1 year ago
The conclusion here seems to be in part that AA is dangerous. I contend that though poop happens in AA it doesn't in any greater degree than anywhere else people gather for fellowship, assistance or personal growth. My conclusion is AA is comparatively as safe as a bar room, college dorm, military base, therapist office or family den. Judging AA in a vacuum doesn't seem fair at all. I believe that's on point
OBStranger 1 year ago
If there are two million people in AA and 95% leave in the first year does that mean forty million people pass through the doors every year? Let's see that means 1-14 people in America go to an AA meeting every year, wow I wish I had stock in that, or at least the coffee concession. Even if it's just a fraction of that those numbers numbers just don't wash.
OBStranger 1 year ago
@OBStranger Nope, a million pass through each year, while 50k stay. Do that for twenty years, and a million have stayed. The numbers wash perfectly. Your premise is flawed. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
Well there you go, everything fits perfectly together in your world, I'm very happy for you. It must be a very safe and secure feeling.
OBStranger 1 year ago
@OBStranger Sarcasm is no substitute for content. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
OB, buy a sarcasm book. You need to learn how to do it better.
dix345 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
OB, buy a sarcasm book. You need to learn how to do it better.
Oh well, it's practice not perfection
OBStranger 1 year ago
Again the only 95% anywhere in the program is the number of first timers who relapse, there is nothing supporting your numbers, I'm really sorry
OBStranger 1 year ago
@OBStranger Can you cite documentation for those assertions? Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
OB, there are no numbers. AA has no Success rate. IT has never calculated one. And, you know it.
dix345 1 year ago
AA has no Success rate. Unfortunately that's what you get with an anonymous program. I'm basing my opinion on it entirely on my years of observations. Ugliness does happening but it's very much the exception, I'm willing to admit my POV is subjective and extend a live and let live olive branch, I really do wish all well. The AA All lies, all the time view I find here is, I think, a child's perspective-over simplified and over stated.
OBStranger 1 year ago
No it does not mean that. And you know that it does not. AA is guessing at the 'membership'. AA does not even now who attends, never mind how many.
dix345 1 year ago
I've been to meeting all over and it is true that they are all an expression of their area. If a meeting is both autonomous and abusive then that's a reflection of the people and community, not AA. The reason that the meeting are autonomous is that AA pushes personal responsibility. We may be able to support one and other but we answer for ourselves, we can't delegate that to anyone or anything else including AA.
OBStranger 1 year ago
@OBStranger The only thing I have ever noticed AA pushing is more AA. Whenever the wheels fall off, a la Midtown, the cry of "That's not AA!!!" goes up, and the blame is placed everywhere except where it goes, which is to the faith-healing movement which is without oversight, qualification, or recourse. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
au contraire, When a person acts contrary to the word and spirit of something that they have associated themselves with then they are responsible, plain and simple. I'm probably a little brutal on this issue of personal responsibility, almost Darwinian. You screw up, you answer for it. AA does give it's members a lot of rope and some of them do hang themselves. There is nothing in the program that implies abuse to self or others, if one is abusive then that's a choice they answer for.
OBStranger 1 year ago
@OBStranger Your personal credo has little bearing on the reality which is AA. Like I said, AA is without oversight, qualification, or recourse. How you personally feel about that doesn't change it one iota. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
How do I feel? I think that what ever the intention of the founders the result has been a loose affiliation of people who have a common problem. I think the fellowship is so big and so diverse that the result is that there is something for everyone, Just the fact you can go and not be alone is huge. I really don't see many taking themselves or the BB so seriously that zaniness ensues, admittedly there are exceptions but there are pricks everywhere. I don't see the doctrine as a problem.
OBStranger 1 year ago
Oh BTW there is recourse, you can leave, which you claim everyone does anyway. At the same time multitudes are brainwashed and manipulated to stay against there will. I don't think you can have it both ways either that rats are leaving the ship or we're stocking the compound with guns. Oh wait you can do that in a over simplified black and white world, things can be all bad all the time. Gotcha
OBStranger 1 year ago
@OBStranger We have a "Why don't you just shut up and leave" video. Check it out. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
"Why don't you just shut up and leave" the problem with that video is that I seldom see anyone misused in AA. People who stick around benefit and everyone else leaves. When You claim that AA is primarily destructive I think of two things either 1) you live somewhere were there is a lot of screwed up people or 2) there is a perceptional problem going on, lot's of chemical imbalances passing through the room. Who knows, I just feel after getting so much from the program I should weigh in.
OBStranger 1 year ago
OB, Better that you stayed away. You are not helpng yourself any by impugning the integrity of others.
dix345 1 year ago
"You are not helpng yourself any by impugning the integrity of others." Some of the most important people in my life are dealing with issue associated with depression and perceptional problems, it has nothing to do with integrity. It's a separate issue from alcoholism. Coming from me it's not an insult but it might be a factor with some of these stories.
OBStranger 1 year ago
I feel in order to be fair I must admit that I realize that an AA meeting could be taken over by a group of assholes. Unfortunately that's a by product of each group is autonomous, AA is not like Mcdonalds there is no HQ making each group conform to a standardized vision of what the book means. It's a first amendment thing and freedom is sometimes messy. Water usually finds it's own level and those that don't fit in one meeting find another of a different solution. AA is in no way this sinister
OBStranger 1 year ago
@OBStranger I've been to thousands of AA meetings, and I will stand by the McDonalds analogy. Same format, same texts, same dogma, same rhetoric, same personalities, same prayers, same everything. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
It's amusing that you sound exactly like the people you describe as going to AA. You paint things in broad black and white strokes, you're dismissive of someone else's experience unless it supports you own and you've created a boogieman of something you can't find a use for. AA is a cross section of the general population2,000,000 are not having anything like the same experience in the rooms and 99.9 percent of the time if it doesn't work for someone they leave.Things tend to work themselves out
OBStranger 1 year ago
@OBStranger It's amusing (not really) that you sound exactly like other supposedly pro-AAs who roll in here from time to time. Which user id were you using three days ago? Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
Thoroughly working the program for me seems to involve showing up, admitting I have a problem, finding some like minded people who seem to be trustworthy, roll up my sleeves and do some work. Which may include screwing up. I've never been coerced or manipulated in any way. I'm an action guy the god thing I can take or leave. My friends in the program are well read, open minded and skeptical people. We come because what's difficult by ourselves is fun and stimulating together.
OBStranger 1 year ago
Oh and once more, your claim of a 95% failure rate is flatly not true. I don't know you so Im assuming it's just an honest mistake. I've seen those surveys and there is simply no questions in it that in any way could establish a claim like that. I've seen statements where AA itself supposedly claims it attendance is declining but I've never seen any evidence supporting that. It's an anonymous program, those surveys are anonymous and the follow up, three years later, is generic and anonymous.
OBStranger 1 year ago
@OBStranger Nope, no mistake. It has been true in my area for the sixteen years I have been paying attention. AA's membership statistics bear out a similar rate. As for the surveys and the conclusions arrived at, AA itself said 5%. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
Once more I've seen the survey and there is no questions that in anyway could ascertain a 95% failure rate. If someone in AA says it does I respectfully disagree, which is not in any way uncommon in the rooms. 95% of members trying to stay sober for the first time do relapse, that's it.
OBStranger 1 year ago
@OBStranger Nowhere do the survey results indicate that 95% of members trying to stay sober for the first time relapse. Is that you, quickcap/wienerout/etc. ? Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
I always said that I would never sign up for any social network but a friend of mine turned me onto you guys and after watching for a while I had to join in. It's amazing that everyone that sounds different than you sounds that same. Do you think we all like fried chicken and have a natural sense of rhythm? It's simply not possible that you overstated you case and there are as many different kinds of people in AA as there are catholics, women and mexican is it?
OBStranger 1 year ago
@OBStranger Ahh, the racist card. Doesn't everybody like fried chicken? Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
maybe so but no one dance likes eyes do boss.
OBStranger 1 year ago
I don't know who your talking about but the only place I find a 95% return is from the questions that ascertain first day in AA versus sobriety date.
OBStranger 1 year ago
You guys really like the indignant thing but your POV is over the top. The program, mostly the steps, is review your life up until now, clean up your mess and learn to do a daily spot check. It's old school, An unexamined life is not worth living sez Socrates everything else, including the fellowship and BB are just tools and guides. we don't govern, just suggestions. You've really missed the point re rule #62. It's all a group of people with a similar problem doing their best and sharing notes
OBStranger 1 year ago
@OBStranger Indignant? Hardly, just commentators on what we have seen and learned. The AA fanatics preach rule 62, but have a hard time adhering to it. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
That's a point of view. I don't find the percentage of people in the rooms that take themselves to seriously any larger than those out of the rooms. When and where I do find them I generally shine them on. I admit that people abuse people everywhere, AA is no better of worse than anywhere else. What ever condition you find yourself in you are responsible for who and what you trust. Honesty, open mindedness and willingness are all you need, nothing is said about obedience or dogma.
OBStranger 1 year ago
@OBStranger I am honest, open-minded, and willing. That is how I got here, once the facts were all in. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
OBstranger -- you are telling him he is OTT? What exactly are you? You come and play the fool for kicks. Now, just who is OTT?
dix345 1 year ago
My point of view is so unworthy I'm playing the fool, Uh Huh. I've admitted the rooms are no more perfect than the people that attend them. That said I've seen waaay more good than harm done in them,that is honestly my experience. All I'm saying is that based on those experiences your observations, while not totally without basis, are hugely over stated.The things you describe as AA happen no more or less in the rooms than anywhere else people congregate.I find it all hyperbolic and small-minded
OBStranger 1 year ago
They told me I had to change everything about myself, how the hell can that be possible. The whole AA thing is to decimate your Self and get you into Groupthink. It is cultish
breda83 1 year ago
Pretty hard to say if AA works or not. AA doesnt have an accurate membership list. Sobriety dates are taken on faith. There is no verification of sobreity, None of these can be verified: retention rate; sobriety dates; actual membership. Who knows if it works or not?
dix345 1 year ago
Alcoholics Anonymous is a CULT that pushes confession, guilt, & penance far more than any mainstream religion.
lighwave 2 years ago
This is great. Instead of being a misreable drunk. You use this type of energy to justify you alcoholism. You dont want to follow the path and there no other way for you to quit drinking. So keep reading the book. You just answered your question. Alcoholics are very stubran and objective(sound like someone). So Bill suggest things. Real drunks like us listan better this way. Keep coming back.
blueeyefly 2 years ago
Check out our videos "The narcissistic nature of Alcoholics Anonymous" and "Ego Deflation In Depth". They were both written with folks like you in mind. Thanks for the post. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
blueyefly -- drivel from an aa zealot.
Is there a reason for you to post here?
dix345 2 years ago
If AA works for someone, more power to them. It's voluntary (unless you are compelled by law to go, which is a result of your own criminal actions.) It is a cult in the same way say, the Methodist Church is a cult-but in my estimation much more benign. To make logical arguments against AA or its text is comparable to making logical arguments against the church and the Bible-if someone believes it, factual arguments and logic are irrelevant.
wallsedwin 2 years ago
According to AA's own web-site, over 60% of all new attendees are initially coerced by outside agencies, something never encountered in the Methodist Church. Government-sanctioned faith-healing is vastly different than voluntary religious participation/affiliation. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
Hey , love the songs. Especially the guitar work. Nice video guys.
ebrp68 2 years ago
@ebrp68 Thanks. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
Yes, but setting aside the wrongs and faults of others, what... ah, heck, fire the bum and move. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
I sense a resentment!
SivsyBoi 2 years ago
Resentments, well-channeled, have resulted in some of the greatest achievements of history, many of them positive. Only in the 12-step movement are they demonized to the point of utter mindlessness. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
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statuseight 2 years ago
Your argument makes no sense. Any chance of recovery is much higher than those who fail. Wilson readily admitted no one had ever worked the steps when he wrote them, so they had no record of success whatsoever. Seventy years later, that record still isn't so impressive. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
AA has no success rate. AA has never made any attempt to determine a success rate. AA never will.
dix345 2 years ago
Some of the silliest remarks that I have ever read or heard have been by aa zealots posting here.
The alternatives to aa are well known. All one needs to know is on line. Do your own homwork.
dix345 2 years ago
My father is close to 30 years sober. Both my brothers recovered. My sister recovered through AA as well. And I am gleaning much from these folks.
I am not without reservations, but why would anybody waste so much time attacking AA? How about pitching your own ideas on sobriety.
People like me who are not exactly enamored with AA would like to know. I seriously doubt you have devoted that much effort toward an alternative. It's easy to just tear down.
What's really going on here?
LifeSoberBobby 2 years ago
"Waste so much time attacking AA" indicatates a certain bias. On your last visit here, I directed you to a site which contains links to countless alternative approaches to dealing with substance abuse, and you dismissed that effort immediately. Again, the links tab on the Orange Papers home page contains alternatives, both face-to-face and online, for folks unhappy or unsuccessful in AA. My personal choice? I don't drink, ever, at all, no matter what. 100% effective for over 15 years. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
15 years! That's great. I would have liked to know more about your sobriety over your views on another method of recovery. And yes, the links that weren't broken were informative. Again thanks.
Just know that none of the listed alternatives offered services for free in my area. AA does, so that's my only connection to AA. And it's a fact that within AA, there are folks with long-term sobriety just like you.
And not all of those are 12 step Nazis. My "sponsor" is one such man. He keeps it real.
LifeSoberBobby 2 years ago 2
SMART recovery, something I recommend to people who are convinced that they need a support group, offers on-line support groups, chats, and forums for free. These days, just about everyone has on-line options.
I know lots of decent folks in AA. That has never been an issue here. I still attend AA, although for different reasons than most. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
I enjoy the on-line options as well as the in person meetings. Right now I need the fellowship.
LifeSoberBobby 2 years ago 2
Comment removed
LifeSoberBobby 2 years ago
I have no reason to think that AA does very much of anything.
dix345 2 years ago
AA/XA is criminal and responsible for many suicides
artdietrich 2 years ago
I just checked out the AA group on Facebook & if you read through the discussions the AA advice that they give it is pretty pathetic. A lot of: go to a mtg, pray, get a sponsor, & do the program it works! Then people go on to give their AA advice to people? You can see how AA destroys people's relationships, but AA's can't see it. I am so glad that I no longer seek solutions to recovery inside the madness of AA.
humyepright 2 years ago
that is all that they know.
dix345 2 years ago
You are supposed to stop drinking on your own. That is one dirty little secret of AA.
AA is run by, and serves the interests of, the old timer. You aree xpected to quit drinking. How you do that, and why you do that, is a personal matter. And, not the business of AA.
You quit drinking before you attend AA.
dix345 2 years ago
Oct. is the month I got out of AA 2 years ago. I got a sponsor, worked the steps 3xs, attended mtgs: listened, listened, listened, was encouraged to share stupid stuff about my past to be laughed at, speaker's mtgs, potlucks, picnics, yard sales, helped old-timers w/ cheap/free labor, gave to the basket, worked counter, worked w/ Salvation Army & rehabs, got ripped on w/out warning often, sponsored people w/ serious problems, tried harder, gave freely, pray & meditate: it was a complete waste
humyepright 2 years ago
Sounds quite a bit like my experiences. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
If AA likes to quote Einstein's definition of insanity is doing the same thing over & over then AA ought to look at their own program: 12 step circles around communiction triangles that breakdown forever. Right before I left an old-timer tried to tell me I wasn't doing "it" right? AA serves no purpose in relationship to wanting to live sober.
humyepright 2 years ago
I did everything too. Was so very unhappy. Got tired of being put down. I didn't realize being mean was a part of being sober. And no, I am not thin skinned. I used to be so gung ho.
The old timers were arrogant and smug.
Very few were " happy, joyous, and free".
Why would I come back again and again to be abused? I wised up. Who needs that crap?
Spiritwolfe09 2 years ago
spiritwolfe, they were weaned on a pickle.
No you do not need it. AA is more trouble than it is worth.
dix345 2 years ago
Rrely have they seen a person who has thoroughly followed their path...
OneDarkFlame1 2 years ago 5
Or could, or would want to if they could. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
Another true video :)
luvhaggis 2 years ago
Right on.
aartvegan 2 years ago
Fail at what? I've certainly seen a lot of people fail at the alleged purpose of aa (stopping drinking and staying stopped). The circular illogic that aa specialises in would no doubt say that none of those people tried hard enough to "follow the path", whatever that's supposed to mean. What I think the statement really boils down to is making the illogical and platitudinous statement that people rarely fail if they succeed.
tobytwirrll 2 years ago 3
Who in the hell wants to find "the god of the preachers" or any other imaginary bullshit. I'll take logic, reason, critical thinking, truth and reality, over ignorance and bliss any day. Religion, in any form, may truly be the "opiate of the masses" but I'll pass on that dope and stay sober minded!
Doucmidiots 2 years ago 3
"Rarely have we seen a person fail" is braggadocio. I do not expect to see proof any time soon.
dix345 2 years ago 4
For Wilson to have made that claim, "Rarely have we seen a person fail," shows his ignorance of statistics and data analysis. You see, when Bill Wilson wrote the so-called "Big Book" he was reportedly 3 years sober and AA was aprox. 3 years old. How could he possibly draw any real scientific conclusions from a 3 year observation?
Doucmidiots 2 years ago 7
From what evidence we have seen, Wilson wasn't ignorant of his statistics and data, but rather, willfully dishonest about them. Thus started a long tradition which continues through today. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago