Two faithers trying to figure out how to make non-sense make sense. Both asserting faith-based postulates. How could this discussion possibly find resolution when there is no evidence with which to verify or falsify?
They might as well stop talking and wait for whoever is wrong to receive the divine revelation of truth, which the one who is right must have already received.
Or maybe, through discussion, one or both will get the inkling that faith-based arguments are useless and unresolvable.
I went to christianlogic . com and found nothing about logical fallacies and if your goal is to teach people how to spot logical fallacies, then they, in theory, would be able to see all the holes in every apologetic argument for the existence of god ever posed. In theory, or course, because they would never apply it to things they believe, only things that challenge their beliefs
Dude, I don't agree with any of Turek's rhetoric, but leave the man alone. He just got done debating Christopher HItchens - a man named as one of the top 100 intellectuals in the world. I'm sure he is exhausted and has no energy/time for your random hallway attacks or babbling group discussions between people who are only qualified to be audience members.
Both these guys have got so worked up arguing they've forgotten which side they're on! 3:10 Turek says 'people know right from wrong without the bible' and the guy disagrees!
Turek is a great speaker that uses reason and logic. It's funny how atheist have to resort to name calling because Turek pwns them everytime. Also, Atheist have no morales because they pretend it doesn't exist. If you don't believe this look at some of the disgusting hateful things they say in their comments.
@darkmantube Morals are obviously the principles detailing the ideal course of action for cooperation among individuals. Look up the non-aggression principle. They say morals don't exist because they are only ideas. Turek grabs the big bang theory, (completely ignoring the evidence for multiple universes) and then tries to have it follow that whatever caused this has to be a personal God, had a son die for sins, etc because the bible proves the rest. He didn't even make a good case for theism...
Multiple Universes? Currently, it takes more faith to believe in multiverse theory than it does the Big Bang theory. Winner Big Bang theory.
On Morals? Yes, there are things we humans debate over, but stuff like me stealing your money, or raping your daughters or son is considered wrong amongs most humans, except for maybe psychopaths, and even they probably know it's wrong. I think this is to coincidental for this to be only ideas.
@darkmantube Big Bang theory does not contradict multiple universe theories. Multiple universe theories are proposals based in mathematics consistent with that which describes our universe, and are not accepted as definite but as working in the right direction. God is a non-sequiter from the big bang and requires faith in spite of reason to accept because there is no evidence or explanation for such a proposal other than that the idea came from the very God that is proposed to exist.
God requires faith? I got news for you, most everything requires faith. Some more, others less. Big Bang is the accepted theory for the beginning of everything, not the multiverse/quantum/string stuff...so it would take more faith to belief in this than the Big bang, but even if multiverse theory were favored, it would make no difference, there would still need to be the Bang that started all bangs. And there is much evidence for God. "Seek and ye shall find."
@darkmantube For science to progress things are taken on faith not as absolutely true, but likely to be true so that it can be worked with and improved upon. It is in the same sense that I have probabilistic faith. I realized over time that all of my evidence and arguments for God could have been constructed for anything, and that my heavy doubts on prayer, the holy spirit, and a relationship with christ were confirmed. I exposed myself to atheist arguments and they made instant sense.
@darkmantube there is no evidence for God, plain and simple... btw any physicist will call bullshit on Turek's 2nd law of thermodynamics argument. Quantum Electrodynamics is the most tested and most accurate theory in the history of man. String "theory" is not real science yet it is completely untestable, same so far with any multiverse theory. There is no "faith" in science, as they say it all comes out in the wash. Working hypotheses are not faith based they are question answering tools. ESAD
@darkmantube "I think this is to coincidental for this to be only ideas."
Of course it's not only ideas. It follows from a) Subjective valuation of consequences and b) Desire to relate positively to other humans(cooperation)
a) Is similar because humans are similar and b) Forces you to value the values of others to some degree, because their values are hard constraints on your behavior as long as you want to maintain voluntary relationships with them.
@darkmantube I suppose you could object to humans not having to value interactions with others, however cooperation is the difference between modern civilization and being naked, cold and wet in a cave in the middle of nowhere. Its value trumps almost any other concern. Not least because not being part of the community means the community will likely hunt you down. Out group hostility is a common psychological trait in all primates.
This is weird. It's as though the skeptic is arguing that the bible is very important and the christian is arguing that that isn't the case. It's as though they've met determined to have an argument and Turek has just abandoned his position resulting in the skeptic switching to an almost theistic position. Turek constantly rehashes canned arguments usually as responses to wholly inappropriate challenges but I struggle to work out what either person was trying to get at.
Turek is a charlatan. He KNOWS he is lying, and he KNOWS his sources are false. It cannot be more clear. Someone that eloquent can be that brainwashed, but cannot be that unintelligent. He is a charlatan.
Funny thing is, the internet atheists community claims to only hold beliefs based on proof. Yet here you are (and the people giving you thumbs up) holding the belief that Turek is a charlatan. You are judging his heart. Yet you cannot prove this!
@philosophy7575 This is a big tricky language. Holding a belief isn't wrong in and of itself, it's about why you hold that belief. If you hold a belief on faith, it's unreasonable. If you hold a belief based on evidence, you're justified in your belief, and for the record, the evidence I hold that he's a charlatan is his poor argument and circular logic. The last point is holding a belief based on the testimony of a trusted source, which is dangerous territory.
1) You're defining faith as "belief without evidence". This is a modernist definition & not in the NT. 2) Having poor arguments & circular logic doesn't mean one is a charlatan. 3) Most of our beliefs are based on testimony. Every school book and college text you learn from is testimony. News sources are testimony. I have never seen Obama in the white house except on TV, but I trust the testimony of the media that he is president and lives in the real white house.
and dinosaurs.... opppsss that major part would help you see clearly... i dont dispute god just man's idea of it... and it is man made!!!! its full of holes and complete nonsense!
marrage didnt exist in the caveman era... opppsss there goes that bible idealogy... adam and eve ... what... are they all insane.... what race are adam and eve they must of been black (or never existed in the first place).... yet the stories dont come from africa... opppsss another misprint... so MAN made stuff up ... i think thats the REAL truth there... and to many people think GOD wrote this info... why would god write anything thats just daft as it is... GODS a UBER scientist!!! end of!
@jammapcb You're assuming that the caveman era is true and you offer no support for that stance. Since you haven't proven the caveman era that gives no bases for your claim that marriage didn't exist in the caveman era.
Concerning what race Adam and Eve would have been, race is irrelevant because it didn't exist yet with Adam and Eve.
Lastly, your attempt to discredit the Bible is very weak. You claimed man made it all up but you offer no proof.
caveman era is not true are you mad.... look it up there are 13 types of sub species for the what we call today human.. we have spread from africa.. by that right and that horrible thing called evidence.... we are related to black people... im proud to say im their distant cousin... no need for fairy tales there ... DNA rocks!... oh ps love and kisses ... a famous man once said... "seek and ye shall find"...
adam and eve how old 6000 years lol ... it would be easy to trace the origins from DNA testing of all creeds from the oldest tribes.. if only it was that young oh by the way there are far more than 12 so called tribes... there are many missing.. the bible doesnt mention the native americans, mayans inca's, toltec's, olmecs or any of their tribes... gods word ... BS!!
i wonder why they are not in the bible... of course... they were on the other side of the planet... gods marketing campaign must of missed those wonderful people... oh and chinese they didnt exist either... or japanese even though a pot which is dated with written EVIDENCE dates back 9500 BC... oh dear ... seriously you are blind!
It wont be long until christians are afraid to show their ignorrance and their faces. This will be the end of christianity yet the next war will be more difficult and just as important when Islam will claim to be even more justified in their belief and just as difficult to dissolve.
abaskcasckbackj wrote"There is no LOGIC to the bible. #1 problem of hundreds: Bible states: a) Man has free will b) God has an order and purpose to the Universe..............THINK about it " if i create 2 small robots with complete freewill, for the ordered purpose of observing the results, this doesn't take away their freewill. i might even know the results, but take pleasure in observing my creation operate, even when learning choices are made by the creations. THINK about it.
@MrDasmaster Assertions without reasons. This the height of illogic and deception. You know his logic is powerful but you deny it because it shows you yourself.
@rosmia2 i wish you people would just stop wasting my air, religious people are just oxygen wasters! if you are religious dont even try to bring up logic it will serve you argument no good ...just stick to faith ....and god just did it!
@MrDasmaster You are making ad hominem fallacies left and right. Please, argue the issues/topics/positions and not a person's character or your prejudice against Christians.
Atheism has the burden of proof just like every other religion. Furthermore your statement is illogical. Christians don't believe blindly but have strong reasons and evidence why they believe what they believe.
@rawbeautifulswing you are obviously just trolling athieism isnt a religion religions are faith based... read some books dont waste my valueable time!
All men are born God haters,God must change their nature before they would ever come to Jesus.If God never changed man's nature,no one would be saved.
I like how Turek deliberately confuses the argument by throwing in all sorts of bullshit that has nothing to do with whether or not the bible is true. I got bored around halfway through, and saw that this man is either very confused himself, or a deliberate liar. Either way, I've got better things to do with my time than listen to this piffle.
@ManOnTheMoon09 and that added an intelligent thought, how? Wasn't aware that an ad hominem equated to an actually defensible or intelligent argument.
Turek makes very strong scientific arguments. Arguments for an intelligent creator. So intelligent that it makes the bible look like even more of an obvious lie.
@F33bs Turek gave tons of reasons and evidence and facts of why he believes the way he does. All you have done is said he has the weakest arguments you've ever heard on the subject of religion. However, you have given no examples.
I think Turek gave a great summary of his position and view. In order to deeply study his case you would have to read his book "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist."
If you haven't read it then I don't think you are in a position to downplay him.
@F33bs His point is we know truth, morality and the existence of God based on common sense reason, first principles, which deals with prolegomena (prior things).. that which we all use in order to think about reality. This is taught in the Bible, that we know these things outside the Bible. Note you are just dogmatically asserting his arguments are weak, you provide no defense for them, when he does, and you somehow have nothing to say about them. Funny how that works huh.
This guy is in way over his head. Guys like Turek know how to substitute clever wording and experienced debating ability for actual argumentation or intellect.
Can anyone tell me where I can find the actual 2nd debate between Turek and Hitchens, and what was the debate on? Was it the plausibility of the New Testament?
You can't find it online just yet, but it will probably be on VIMEO soon. Dr. Turek will probably put it on his CrossExamined(dot)Org blog in less than a month or two.
The topic was on "Theism or Atheism: Which Better Explains Reality".
OK, cool. I'm totally excited to watch/listen to it.
Did you get to see it? I'm curious to know if Turek talked about the plausibility of the NT. I thought that was the topic originally, but anyways, yeah :P
The Great Unicorn tells me I should be a safe driver. I got in a dozen wrecks before I realized the Great Unicorn was watching over me and guiding me. Now, whenever I want to drive fast, or run a red light, the Great Unicorn looks over at me and tells me that I'm not being a good driver. Does this line of reasoning make the Great Unicorn real? There are many other reasons to be a safe driver that do not require a supernatural deity.
But if I decided to NOT be a safe driver, then what does it matter? Without a deity to establish what is right and wrong, being a dangerous driver could be the right thing to do because I say it is. Maybe being dangerous is good and being safe is bad. How do I know? How would I ever know except for what my personal conscience is saying? And who is to say that safety is the ultimate concern? Maybe death is. Without God, how do I know for certain what is truly right and wrong?
How do you know WITH a belief in God, what is truely right or wrong? Where is the strict objective truths that you are referring to? If you get this from the bible, then you are required to take it 100% literally, otherwise you are using some other facility to decide on your own what to take from that text. If you seriously take the bible 100% literally, then you must then say that genocide, infanticide, slavery, polygamy, etc are all valid things to do if God tells you so. Is this the case?
I take the Bible 100% literally when it presents itself as such (I don't take poetic figures of speech literally, such as when the Psalms speak of the trees clapping their hands with joy). And yes, God did command Israel to kill the people who were living in the land. i won't shy away from that. Do you know WHY God did this? That's the question- Did God command these things "just for the heck of it" or did he have a reason for it? Most people concentrate on what God did without asking, "Why?"
As for your last two sentences, I want you to do me a favor and find one command that Jesus Christ or any of the apostles wrote or spoke telling Christians or Jews today to kill anyone, or harm anyone. There is none. Jesus spent his time on earth preaching the good news of the Kingdom of God and salvation from wickedness and sin. But he never told us to kill or force anyone to convert. This is the terrible evil that so many have made, and it has costed many lives that should never have been lost
Well since Jesus Christ is God, and the God of the old testament is presumably the same as in the new, then Jesus/God certainly allowed and promoted all of the things I said: genocide, infanticide, polygamy, slavery, etc.
God allowed these things. You are correct. Like Stooge said, I won't back away from those things. Not for one second. And as Stooge asked above, WHY did God allow these things, and why did He kill people in the Old and New Testament? Why did he do these things? Yes, he did so. Why? Because he did so "for the heck of it," or because he had another reason for it? Stooge asked the question that I don't mind hearing your response to. Why did God do this?
So if there is no objective, obvious or provable morality by which we can judge what is good or evil, then I don't see what the problem is with feeding the poor or killing them. I see no reason why you or anyone else should be upset over "evil" or congratulate someone over doing "good." And I don't see any reason (other than your own, personal, subjective opinion) why you should be upset or happy over anything that anyone teaches. Not sure I get what you are saying or why you are upset over God
I have no problem with my subjective morality based on reason, logic, experience, history, solidarity, family, etc to decide what I think is good and bad. To say that the bible has any sort of objective reference to morality, unless you take it strictly literally (which would them be insane), is simply not true.
There is no LOGIC to the bible. #1 problem of hundreds: Bible states: a) Man has free will b) God has an order and purpose to the Universe..............THINK about it
Uh oh, how do you know your Great Unicorn is intending to watch over you to guide you to do 'good' things? What if the Great Unicorn isn't looking out for us at all? Even though the Unicorn has, just like for you, revealed himself to me with the Sacred Steed, born of a virgin Mare, I have no way to know the Unicorn's mind. :) Hey you posted 7 months ago hehe.
I don't understand the line of thinking here. If God doesn't care about us, or is not watching over us, or if there is no way for us to know if he revealed himself to us, then what is the point of Jesus Christ coming? That would be hypocrisy. we don't know if God cares enough about us, but he sent Jesus Christ to die for you and me. That doesn't make any sense. Jesus is what I need. He is what you need, too. But no one should force you and I hope no one ever does. Honestly.
Quite a leap of faith to assume he sent down Jesus to do, teach, represent only good things for us. In doing so you claim to know God's mind. Maybe God actually isn't nice. Even if God is, there's still absolutely no evidence that Jesus was anything but a man.
Why does he need a platform? Justice, caring, beauty are intrinsic. It is a biological feeling one gets when you give to someone else. Have you never experienced that? The "warm and fuzzy?" That is biology reaffirming a positive behavior selection.
For the most part your description is true (although I disagree with the compelling argument part).
But I think what he fails to explain in his arguments by asking those questions is this: "How do you justify your morality" or "What platform are you standing on to judge what is right and what is wrong" since it can't be a Theistic one.
If he rephrased his arguments in that manner they may become more compelling, because I think that is what he is essentially trying to get at.
Even if that were true, which it certainly isn't, do you think that fact would be meaningful to the debate about the existence of a supreme deity? Why or why not? I'll be awaiting your answer.
Otherwise, you're just confirming my standing claim that all his detractors have to offer is mockery, not reason.
Well if it is, I think an absolute moral foundation would be relevant to the existence of a creator God. AlwaysBeready(dotcom) has a post called "Existence of God" and shows that in order for someone to call something absolutely Good or Evil, that is objectively good or evil, God must exist, otherwise it is completely subjective. The article is more clever than this simple post though.
And most of his detractors do offer mockery, little reason.
Turek should give up all his wordly possessions and go out into the forest and just get lost.
charlietuna34 1 month ago
Two faithers trying to figure out how to make non-sense make sense. Both asserting faith-based postulates. How could this discussion possibly find resolution when there is no evidence with which to verify or falsify?
They might as well stop talking and wait for whoever is wrong to receive the divine revelation of truth, which the one who is right must have already received.
Or maybe, through discussion, one or both will get the inkling that faith-based arguments are useless and unresolvable.
brindlebriar 1 month ago
Never trust the suit and tie. Especially when "god" is the subject of discussion.
MrBeautifulba1 1 month ago
@AtheosRecords
Please read some scholarly historical books on the topic before you make such comments.
philosophy7575 3 months ago
I can't even believe he's citing natural theology. Has he really missed the last 200 years of acquired knowledge?
Ematched 3 months ago
The man sounded more like a Calvinist who opposes natural theology, rather than a skeptic.
philosophy7575 3 months ago
@AtheosRecords Bingo, You summarized it brilliantly.
cuevarap 4 months ago
The fact that Turek uses the word logic is illogical...
Hornadayfan 4 months ago
lol, first time I've heard Turek sound like an atheist!
dallased25 4 months ago
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scar504 5 months ago
Frank Turek is not gay.
gamesbok 6 months ago
"where are the times tables in the bible?". Ladies and gentlemen, with the man who uttered that question, I give you your fuckwit.
lizoir 6 months ago
I went to christianlogic . com and found nothing about logical fallacies and if your goal is to teach people how to spot logical fallacies, then they, in theory, would be able to see all the holes in every apologetic argument for the existence of god ever posed. In theory, or course, because they would never apply it to things they believe, only things that challenge their beliefs
direngrey4569 7 months ago
theyre both morons
johnykoop 7 months ago
frank was more like a bill'o riley wannabe with the personal attacks and all but falling short of the constant interruptions
RokkuNoBushi 8 months ago
sweater vests are making a come back...yes!
h2omanz 9 months ago
I'm a Christian and this guy is embarassing...
christiano241525 9 months ago
Dude, I don't agree with any of Turek's rhetoric, but leave the man alone. He just got done debating Christopher HItchens - a man named as one of the top 100 intellectuals in the world. I'm sure he is exhausted and has no energy/time for your random hallway attacks or babbling group discussions between people who are only qualified to be audience members.
314Aurelius 11 months ago
@darkmantube well I'm an atheist, and i wish you a lovely day but say turek twists reason and logic to prove a preconcieved idea.
I think that sufficiantly refutes your argument.
shandcunt 11 months ago
turek is a nice guy but a terrible theologian haha
MamaMario13 1 year ago
Both these guys have got so worked up arguing they've forgotten which side they're on! 3:10 Turek says 'people know right from wrong without the bible' and the guy disagrees!
deekomendez 1 year ago
Turek is a great speaker that uses reason and logic. It's funny how atheist have to resort to name calling because Turek pwns them everytime. Also, Atheist have no morales because they pretend it doesn't exist. If you don't believe this look at some of the disgusting hateful things they say in their comments.
darkmantube 1 year ago
@darkmantube Morals are obviously the principles detailing the ideal course of action for cooperation among individuals. Look up the non-aggression principle. They say morals don't exist because they are only ideas. Turek grabs the big bang theory, (completely ignoring the evidence for multiple universes) and then tries to have it follow that whatever caused this has to be a personal God, had a son die for sins, etc because the bible proves the rest. He didn't even make a good case for theism...
parquar 1 year ago
@parquar
Multiple Universes? Currently, it takes more faith to believe in multiverse theory than it does the Big Bang theory. Winner Big Bang theory.
On Morals? Yes, there are things we humans debate over, but stuff like me stealing your money, or raping your daughters or son is considered wrong amongs most humans, except for maybe psychopaths, and even they probably know it's wrong. I think this is to coincidental for this to be only ideas.
darkmantube 11 months ago
@darkmantube Big Bang theory does not contradict multiple universe theories. Multiple universe theories are proposals based in mathematics consistent with that which describes our universe, and are not accepted as definite but as working in the right direction. God is a non-sequiter from the big bang and requires faith in spite of reason to accept because there is no evidence or explanation for such a proposal other than that the idea came from the very God that is proposed to exist.
SecondAgeOfReason 11 months ago
@SecondAgeOfReason
God requires faith? I got news for you, most everything requires faith. Some more, others less. Big Bang is the accepted theory for the beginning of everything, not the multiverse/quantum/string stuff...so it would take more faith to belief in this than the Big bang, but even if multiverse theory were favored, it would make no difference, there would still need to be the Bang that started all bangs. And there is much evidence for God. "Seek and ye shall find."
darkmantube 11 months ago
@darkmantube For science to progress things are taken on faith not as absolutely true, but likely to be true so that it can be worked with and improved upon. It is in the same sense that I have probabilistic faith. I realized over time that all of my evidence and arguments for God could have been constructed for anything, and that my heavy doubts on prayer, the holy spirit, and a relationship with christ were confirmed. I exposed myself to atheist arguments and they made instant sense.
SecondAgeOfReason 10 months ago
@darkmantube there is no evidence for God, plain and simple... btw any physicist will call bullshit on Turek's 2nd law of thermodynamics argument. Quantum Electrodynamics is the most tested and most accurate theory in the history of man. String "theory" is not real science yet it is completely untestable, same so far with any multiverse theory. There is no "faith" in science, as they say it all comes out in the wash. Working hypotheses are not faith based they are question answering tools. ESAD
thepossumdance 10 months ago
@darkmantube "I think this is to coincidental for this to be only ideas."
Of course it's not only ideas. It follows from a) Subjective valuation of consequences and b) Desire to relate positively to other humans(cooperation)
a) Is similar because humans are similar and b) Forces you to value the values of others to some degree, because their values are hard constraints on your behavior as long as you want to maintain voluntary relationships with them.
No gods involved though.
Gnomefro 9 months ago
@darkmantube I suppose you could object to humans not having to value interactions with others, however cooperation is the difference between modern civilization and being naked, cold and wet in a cave in the middle of nowhere. Its value trumps almost any other concern. Not least because not being part of the community means the community will likely hunt you down. Out group hostility is a common psychological trait in all primates.
Gnomefro 9 months ago
This is weird. It's as though the skeptic is arguing that the bible is very important and the christian is arguing that that isn't the case. It's as though they've met determined to have an argument and Turek has just abandoned his position resulting in the skeptic switching to an almost theistic position. Turek constantly rehashes canned arguments usually as responses to wholly inappropriate challenges but I struggle to work out what either person was trying to get at.
jamesrands 1 year ago
Turek is a charlatan. He KNOWS he is lying, and he KNOWS his sources are false. It cannot be more clear. Someone that eloquent can be that brainwashed, but cannot be that unintelligent. He is a charlatan.
AtheistdotEDU 1 year ago 7
@AtheistdotEDU
Funny thing is, the internet atheists community claims to only hold beliefs based on proof. Yet here you are (and the people giving you thumbs up) holding the belief that Turek is a charlatan. You are judging his heart. Yet you cannot prove this!
philosophy7575 3 months ago
@philosophy7575 This is a big tricky language. Holding a belief isn't wrong in and of itself, it's about why you hold that belief. If you hold a belief on faith, it's unreasonable. If you hold a belief based on evidence, you're justified in your belief, and for the record, the evidence I hold that he's a charlatan is his poor argument and circular logic. The last point is holding a belief based on the testimony of a trusted source, which is dangerous territory.
nrgianni 3 months ago
@nrgianni
1) You're defining faith as "belief without evidence". This is a modernist definition & not in the NT. 2) Having poor arguments & circular logic doesn't mean one is a charlatan. 3) Most of our beliefs are based on testimony. Every school book and college text you learn from is testimony. News sources are testimony. I have never seen Obama in the white house except on TV, but I trust the testimony of the media that he is president and lives in the real white house.
Peace
philosophy7575 3 months ago
the caveman era is true .... they have been dug up all over the dam place for JC's sake wake up ! are you really that ignorant!
jammapcb 1 year ago
and dinosaurs.... opppsss that major part would help you see clearly... i dont dispute god just man's idea of it... and it is man made!!!! its full of holes and complete nonsense!
jammapcb 1 year ago
marrage didnt exist in the caveman era... opppsss there goes that bible idealogy... adam and eve ... what... are they all insane.... what race are adam and eve they must of been black (or never existed in the first place).... yet the stories dont come from africa... opppsss another misprint... so MAN made stuff up ... i think thats the REAL truth there... and to many people think GOD wrote this info... why would god write anything thats just daft as it is... GODS a UBER scientist!!! end of!
jammapcb 1 year ago
@jammapcb You're assuming that the caveman era is true and you offer no support for that stance. Since you haven't proven the caveman era that gives no bases for your claim that marriage didn't exist in the caveman era.
Concerning what race Adam and Eve would have been, race is irrelevant because it didn't exist yet with Adam and Eve.
Lastly, your attempt to discredit the Bible is very weak. You claimed man made it all up but you offer no proof.
rawbeautifulswing 1 year ago
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jammapcb 1 year ago
caveman era is not true are you mad.... look it up there are 13 types of sub species for the what we call today human.. we have spread from africa.. by that right and that horrible thing called evidence.... we are related to black people... im proud to say im their distant cousin... no need for fairy tales there ... DNA rocks!... oh ps love and kisses ... a famous man once said... "seek and ye shall find"...
jammapcb 1 year ago
adam and eve how old 6000 years lol ... it would be easy to trace the origins from DNA testing of all creeds from the oldest tribes.. if only it was that young oh by the way there are far more than 12 so called tribes... there are many missing.. the bible doesnt mention the native americans, mayans inca's, toltec's, olmecs or any of their tribes... gods word ... BS!!
jammapcb 1 year ago
i wonder why they are not in the bible... of course... they were on the other side of the planet... gods marketing campaign must of missed those wonderful people... oh and chinese they didnt exist either... or japanese even though a pot which is dated with written EVIDENCE dates back 9500 BC... oh dear ... seriously you are blind!
jammapcb 1 year ago
Both these guys are retarded
percyth11 1 year ago
all I hear is...AD HOMINEM!!!!
surgicalbassist 1 year ago
@surgicalbassist Exactly!!! I wish it would stop.
rawbeautifulswing 1 year ago
Yep, he has chimp eyes, like George Bush. Little beady sunken things, all desperate and pitiful, formulating his next bullshit statement.
Its about time this breed of lesser animals evolved into humans.
Zensonar 1 year ago
@Zensonar Your mockery speaks only to the level to which you are deceived.
rosmia2 1 year ago
@rosmia2 Cool story, bro
Zensonar 1 year ago
It wont be long until christians are afraid to show their ignorrance and their faces. This will be the end of christianity yet the next war will be more difficult and just as important when Islam will claim to be even more justified in their belief and just as difficult to dissolve.
wackydan74 1 year ago
abaskcasckbackj wrote"There is no LOGIC to the bible. #1 problem of hundreds: Bible states: a) Man has free will b) God has an order and purpose to the Universe..............THINK about it " if i create 2 small robots with complete freewill, for the ordered purpose of observing the results, this doesn't take away their freewill. i might even know the results, but take pleasure in observing my creation operate, even when learning choices are made by the creations. THINK about it.
1traviswyrick 1 year ago
turek is an embaresment to logic
MrDasmaster 1 year ago 2
@MrDasmaster Assertions without reasons. This the height of illogic and deception. You know his logic is powerful but you deny it because it shows you yourself.
rosmia2 1 year ago
@rosmia2 i wish you people would just stop wasting my air, religious people are just oxygen wasters! if you are religious dont even try to bring up logic it will serve you argument no good ...just stick to faith ....and god just did it!
MrDasmaster 1 year ago
@MrDasmaster You are making ad hominem fallacies left and right. Please, argue the issues/topics/positions and not a person's character or your prejudice against Christians.
Atheism has the burden of proof just like every other religion. Furthermore your statement is illogical. Christians don't believe blindly but have strong reasons and evidence why they believe what they believe.
rawbeautifulswing 1 year ago
@rawbeautifulswing you are obviously just trolling athieism isnt a religion religions are faith based... read some books dont waste my valueable time!
MrDasmaster 1 year ago
this video's funny lol. Our God reigns!
wowowabzee 1 year ago
We were not guilty until the Law came.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
All men are born God haters,God must change their nature before they would ever come to Jesus.If God never changed man's nature,no one would be saved.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
I'm not following this very well, but I don't think this guy is a skeptic. He sounds like a Christian with a different theology form Frank.
jimjamerman 2 years ago
I like how Turek deliberately confuses the argument by throwing in all sorts of bullshit that has nothing to do with whether or not the bible is true. I got bored around halfway through, and saw that this man is either very confused himself, or a deliberate liar. Either way, I've got better things to do with my time than listen to this piffle.
BLJazzman 2 years ago
The idea of original sin is not a Biblical Christian conception at all. Both skeptics and Evangelical Christians should know that by now!
regelemihai 2 years ago
Excellent response.
miamidiver856 2 years ago
Turek is a genius
Krazie316 2 years ago
turek is a moron
Steadno 2 years ago 4
Turek is such an idiot, you can see it in his eyes...
ManOnTheMoon09 2 years ago 14
Um, ok? So you are basing this argument on "look at his eyes"??? Wow.....dude, wow....typical atheist argument. (frown)
divine137 1 year ago
@ManOnTheMoon09 ok...so you base someone's intelligence by "the look in their eyes"...that's very...hmm idiotic? wow, what a stupid comment you made.
beto88keys 4 months ago
@ManOnTheMoon09 and that added an intelligent thought, how? Wasn't aware that an ad hominem equated to an actually defensible or intelligent argument.
Dominick7 4 months ago
Turek makes very strong scientific arguments. Arguments for an intelligent creator. So intelligent that it makes the bible look like even more of an obvious lie.
pokethechutney 2 years ago
Turek has some of the weakest arguments I've ever heard on the subject of religion.
The debate is on Vimeo, by the way.
F33bs 2 years ago 28
Yea....i posted the link in the video response..Thanks tho!
TNROLM 2 years ago
You should put an annotation letting people know where they can watch it.
F33bs 2 years ago
@F33bs
rosmia2 1 year ago
@F33bs Turek gave tons of reasons and evidence and facts of why he believes the way he does. All you have done is said he has the weakest arguments you've ever heard on the subject of religion. However, you have given no examples.
I think Turek gave a great summary of his position and view. In order to deeply study his case you would have to read his book "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist."
If you haven't read it then I don't think you are in a position to downplay him.
rawbeautifulswing 1 year ago
@rawbeautifulswing Give me one example of a piece of evidence that Turek presented, and I'll debunk it for you right now.
F33bs 1 year ago
@F33bs search william lane craig
heightboosting 6 months ago
@F33bs His point is we know truth, morality and the existence of God based on common sense reason, first principles, which deals with prolegomena (prior things).. that which we all use in order to think about reality. This is taught in the Bible, that we know these things outside the Bible. Note you are just dogmatically asserting his arguments are weak, you provide no defense for them, when he does, and you somehow have nothing to say about them. Funny how that works huh.
Dominick7 4 months ago
Going to cry because I really feel there is a shortage of trolls on youtube.. boohoo.
Dominick7 4 months ago
This guy is in way over his head. Guys like Turek know how to substitute clever wording and experienced debating ability for actual argumentation or intellect.
VarialProductions 2 years ago
I've always wondered if the Bible is the "perfect word of God" then why is someone like Turek needed?
MrOldSlacker 2 years ago 3
Because the bible calls for people like Turek. 1 peter 3:15
SimplyApologetics 2 years ago
Amen brother!
DACFAN77 2 years ago
excellent response
SimplyApologetics
Krazie316 2 years ago 2
any word on whether this debate is up on video anywhere yet?
Slopdog90 2 years ago
No, I haven't heard anything. And the first debate is on his blog at Crossexamined (dot) org. Unfortunately there is no word about the 2nd debate.
TNROLM 2 years ago
Can anyone tell me where I can find the actual 2nd debate between Turek and Hitchens, and what was the debate on? Was it the plausibility of the New Testament?
mikeyboy86 2 years ago
You can't find it online just yet, but it will probably be on VIMEO soon. Dr. Turek will probably put it on his CrossExamined(dot)Org blog in less than a month or two.
The topic was on "Theism or Atheism: Which Better Explains Reality".
TNROLM 2 years ago
OK, cool. I'm totally excited to watch/listen to it.
Did you get to see it? I'm curious to know if Turek talked about the plausibility of the NT. I thought that was the topic originally, but anyways, yeah :P
mikeyboy86 2 years ago
The Great Unicorn tells me I should be a safe driver. I got in a dozen wrecks before I realized the Great Unicorn was watching over me and guiding me. Now, whenever I want to drive fast, or run a red light, the Great Unicorn looks over at me and tells me that I'm not being a good driver. Does this line of reasoning make the Great Unicorn real? There are many other reasons to be a safe driver that do not require a supernatural deity.
nkirby4 2 years ago
But if I decided to NOT be a safe driver, then what does it matter? Without a deity to establish what is right and wrong, being a dangerous driver could be the right thing to do because I say it is. Maybe being dangerous is good and being safe is bad. How do I know? How would I ever know except for what my personal conscience is saying? And who is to say that safety is the ultimate concern? Maybe death is. Without God, how do I know for certain what is truly right and wrong?
TheSeventhStooge 2 years ago
How do you know WITH a belief in God, what is truely right or wrong? Where is the strict objective truths that you are referring to? If you get this from the bible, then you are required to take it 100% literally, otherwise you are using some other facility to decide on your own what to take from that text. If you seriously take the bible 100% literally, then you must then say that genocide, infanticide, slavery, polygamy, etc are all valid things to do if God tells you so. Is this the case?
adknerr 2 years ago
I take the Bible 100% literally when it presents itself as such (I don't take poetic figures of speech literally, such as when the Psalms speak of the trees clapping their hands with joy). And yes, God did command Israel to kill the people who were living in the land. i won't shy away from that. Do you know WHY God did this? That's the question- Did God command these things "just for the heck of it" or did he have a reason for it? Most people concentrate on what God did without asking, "Why?"
TheSeventhStooge 2 years ago
As for your last two sentences, I want you to do me a favor and find one command that Jesus Christ or any of the apostles wrote or spoke telling Christians or Jews today to kill anyone, or harm anyone. There is none. Jesus spent his time on earth preaching the good news of the Kingdom of God and salvation from wickedness and sin. But he never told us to kill or force anyone to convert. This is the terrible evil that so many have made, and it has costed many lives that should never have been lost
TheSeventhStooge 2 years ago
Well since Jesus Christ is God, and the God of the old testament is presumably the same as in the new, then Jesus/God certainly allowed and promoted all of the things I said: genocide, infanticide, polygamy, slavery, etc.
adknerr 2 years ago
God allowed these things. You are correct. Like Stooge said, I won't back away from those things. Not for one second. And as Stooge asked above, WHY did God allow these things, and why did He kill people in the Old and New Testament? Why did he do these things? Yes, he did so. Why? Because he did so "for the heck of it," or because he had another reason for it? Stooge asked the question that I don't mind hearing your response to. Why did God do this?
BrotherLonnie 2 years ago
Indeed, the reasons for why he is telling us to do something is not objective, obvious and proovable... that's the entire problem.
adknerr 2 years ago
So if there is no objective, obvious or provable morality by which we can judge what is good or evil, then I don't see what the problem is with feeding the poor or killing them. I see no reason why you or anyone else should be upset over "evil" or congratulate someone over doing "good." And I don't see any reason (other than your own, personal, subjective opinion) why you should be upset or happy over anything that anyone teaches. Not sure I get what you are saying or why you are upset over God
BrotherLonnie 2 years ago
Comment removed
adknerr 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
(Reposted... silly typoes :( )
I have no problem with my subjective morality based on reason, logic, experience, history, solidarity, family, etc to decide what I think is good and bad. To say that the bible has any sort of objective reference to morality, unless you take it strictly literally (which would them be insane), is simply not true.
adknerr 2 years ago
There is no LOGIC to the bible. #1 problem of hundreds: Bible states: a) Man has free will b) God has an order and purpose to the Universe..............THINK about it
abaskcasckbackj 2 years ago
Uh oh, how do you know your Great Unicorn is intending to watch over you to guide you to do 'good' things? What if the Great Unicorn isn't looking out for us at all? Even though the Unicorn has, just like for you, revealed himself to me with the Sacred Steed, born of a virgin Mare, I have no way to know the Unicorn's mind. :) Hey you posted 7 months ago hehe.
adknerr 2 years ago
I don't understand the line of thinking here. If God doesn't care about us, or is not watching over us, or if there is no way for us to know if he revealed himself to us, then what is the point of Jesus Christ coming? That would be hypocrisy. we don't know if God cares enough about us, but he sent Jesus Christ to die for you and me. That doesn't make any sense. Jesus is what I need. He is what you need, too. But no one should force you and I hope no one ever does. Honestly.
TheSeventhStooge 2 years ago
Quite a leap of faith to assume he sent down Jesus to do, teach, represent only good things for us. In doing so you claim to know God's mind. Maybe God actually isn't nice. Even if God is, there's still absolutely no evidence that Jesus was anything but a man.
adknerr 2 years ago
Why does he need a platform? Justice, caring, beauty are intrinsic. It is a biological feeling one gets when you give to someone else. Have you never experienced that? The "warm and fuzzy?" That is biology reaffirming a positive behavior selection.
nkirby4 2 years ago
Turek doesn't make any compelling points, he only likes to yell...
"Something from nothing! Something from nothing!"
or even better,
"Where do you get morality, the carbon atom, the benzene atom? Well? Where?"
and then there's...
"Blah blah blah I'm a raging idiot."
nkirby4 2 years ago
For the most part your description is true (although I disagree with the compelling argument part).
But I think what he fails to explain in his arguments by asking those questions is this: "How do you justify your morality" or "What platform are you standing on to judge what is right and what is wrong" since it can't be a Theistic one.
If he rephrased his arguments in that manner they may become more compelling, because I think that is what he is essentially trying to get at.
TNROLM 2 years ago
Even if that were true, which it certainly isn't, do you think that fact would be meaningful to the debate about the existence of a supreme deity? Why or why not? I'll be awaiting your answer.
Otherwise, you're just confirming my standing claim that all his detractors have to offer is mockery, not reason.
ChristReignsYouDoNot 2 years ago
Is this a response to me?
Well if it is, I think an absolute moral foundation would be relevant to the existence of a creator God. AlwaysBeready(dotcom) has a post called "Existence of God" and shows that in order for someone to call something absolutely Good or Evil, that is objectively good or evil, God must exist, otherwise it is completely subjective. The article is more clever than this simple post though.
And most of his detractors do offer mockery, little reason.
Did that answer you?
TNROLM 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
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KanchanaPhanavanh 2 years ago