Unknown Orchestra but labelled asTed Lewis and his Orchestra - 10.000 Years Ago 1933

[RatPfink66]

Mostly google. I can send you the web URLs "off-comments" to keep things tidy.

Whoever that tenorman is, he was playing some way out $#!! for a White musician of that day, and probably doing it on one of the new metal mouthpieces. Both betray Coleman Hawkins' influence.

[RatPfink66]

Lewis played the Bay Area at least twice in mid 1932 and could easily have picked up a promising local musician and taken him on the road. And he was back in SF in fall, 1933, about when Camgros joined Coakley (he replaced Tony Martin!).

[harryoakley]

@RatPfink66 Where did you get that information? Nothing in my files or the discographies confirms these dates.

[RatPfink66]

Left-field guess on that tenor soloist - and I play tenor myself, FWIW...

He reminds me of a wild tenorman from San Francisco - Armand Camgros - who tripled as a Venuti-esque hot fiddler and a polite tenor vocalist. (Seriously!)

Armand recorded mostly with Tom Coakley on McGregor ETs - plus a very few Victor sides.

He joined Coakley in fall '33. Sadly, I can't share the McGregors because a friend of a friend ripped 'em for me. But that same wild tenor - unmistakable - shows up on more than one!

[harryoakley]

@RatPfink66 A very interesting theory - thanks! What goes against it though is the location of this recording: Chicago.

[jpmfm54]

For the pleasure of argument, it is obvious for me that the trombone soloist (Sam Blank?) is the same on Gold Diggers (April 33), Stormy Weather (May), Rhythm (June), Ten Thousand (July 33) and Jazznocracy (August 34). I hear the same rhythm section (sound and pulse) on all these numbers, and the same clarinet (Slats Long?) except for Jazznocracy. About Muggsy, it's less clear, but I am not completely convinced that he is not present on Rhythm. The sound is different, but the phrasing the same.

[harryoakley]

@jpmfm54 I beg to differ. No trace of Muggsy, rhythm section sounds completely different, bassist is definitely not Harry Barth, tenorsax is not on any other Lewis recording and the clarinet is certainly not Long or Glassman. In view of the fact that this side sounds so much different, in every respect, to the other sides from the same session I (and many others) conclude that it's not the Ted Lewis band on "10.000 Years Ago", unless Lewis brought two entirely different bands to the studio.

[suaveoo]

OK - listening again to this side. Vocalist is NOT Vernon Dalhart (what would he have sounded like in 1933, anyway?) - does anyone have the new Dance Band books, do they give a vocalist's name? The trombonist is the same as the Decca Lewis version of "Jazznochracy". Clearly there is SOME sort of connection between this band and the Decca date. Augmented band, with key players out and different players in, perhaps ??

[suaveoo]

Well, here I come into this (for better or worse!) - "Ten Thousand Years Ago" is audibly the same band that plays "Rhythm". We must not forget that Lewis had to change with the times - there are sides where Spanier and Brunies are heard quite clearly, and others where a more streamlined style comes into play. 1933 / 1934 are really years of great change in music, and why wouldn't Lewis have also realized that? Ted Lewis sides of 1931 couldn't possibly sound the same as 1933 or 1934.

[phredl]

You could be right. Many times they changed the makeup of the band because of the arrangement even on the same session. Look at some of the Whitemans. Have to get ready for the "Family Christmas gathering I really enjoy discussing the music with you. You're very knowledgeable. You've also post some of the best "stuff" around. Fred

[phredl]

According to Rust they were taken from Whiteman's library (Grofe and Challis) but Rust been known to be wrong.( I found a Ted Wallace listed under Selvin) Who do you believe arranged them? . I should ask Vince Giordano he probably knows.' In any case they still sound Whitemanish. In Lewis's case you believe they sound nothing like Lewis. Do you believe that Ted would want his name associated with a band that sounded nothing like him? Maybe, I really don't know.

[harryoakley]

@phredl All I say is that the band which recorded "Lazybones", "Here You Come" and "Little Locket" is not the same band that recorded "Rhythm" and "10.000 Years Ago". And I will never be convinced otherwise. These are completely different bands - but they could both be under Ted Lewis' direction. That is possible.

[phredl]

Good point. Possibly true but remember the Selvins were arrangements Whiteman used and the instrumentation made the band sound just like Whiteman.

[harryoakley]

@phredl The sides that Selvin issued under Whietman's name were not Whiteman arrangements.

[phredl]

Lewis himself was constantly bringing in "hot" players for recording sessions only (Goodman. Dorsey etc.). Just like Goldkette did with Venuti and Lang, They didn't tour with the band. Isham Jones at times used a string bass or a brass bass and sometimes both according to the.arrangement. Nothing was set in stone.

[phredl]

There is a list of musicians on the first decca session as I'm sure you know. Muggsy wasn't there. He did return though. Muggsy's best playing was muted. open solo on 10,000 same slap bass as on Rhythm and the hot Deccas. This was Lewis' first "big" band. Lewis an astute businessman realized that bigger was better and small group jazz was out. As far as Columbia using a new matrix---Why? People forget that this was a business not someone out to have fun. they wouldn't spend money foolishly.

[harryoakley]

@phredl Muggsy is definitely not on "10.000" nor on "Rhythm". Nor are Barth and Brunies. These sides have an entirely different personnel from the other Lewis sides recorded on the two dates. Maybe Lewis had two bands - that I could accept, but not that these are the same bands because they are not.

[phredl]

We'll do this a little at a time. Remember I'm playing devils advocate here. Highly unlikely that a major star like Lewis would even allow another band to use his name. Supposedly Lewis was in Chicago possibly not every member was there with him. Musicians move in and out all the time. The trumpet section starting with the previous session in N.Y. was enlarged to what sounds like three, trumbones two etc. New arrangements included slap bass playing that continued right into the Decca sessions.

[harryoakley]

@phredl You did not answer the question which is: If it's the same band on "10.000" as on "Here You Come" - apart from the very different "overall sound" between the two; where, on the first title, is Muggsy? Where is Harry Barth? Where is George Brunies?Where is Lewis himself? These guys are all clearly audible on "Here You Come". And who are the trumpet, tenorsax, trombone, slap-bassist and singer on "10.000"? They sure ain't there on "Here You Come" (or indeed the waltz side).

[harryoakley]

@phredl And furthermore, it is absolutely not so that "a major star like Lewis would not allow another band to use his name" - why not? Whiteman did just that (Selvin recorded several sides under his name on the potato head label!) and he was an even more major star than Lewis.

[phredl]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. That's okay. I enjoy having these discussions with those who love the music just as much as I do. Maybe someone has a definitive answer for us. Have you ever heard Sam Robbins recording of Highly Educated Man? A total ripoff of 10,000

[harryoakley]

@phredl Let me ask you this. If it's the same band on "10.000" as on "Here You Come" - apart from the very different "overall sound" between the two; where, on the first title, is Muggsy? Where is Harry Barth? Where is George Brunies?Where is Lewis himself? These guys are all clearly audible on "Here You Come". And who are the trumpet, tenorsax, trombone, slap-bassist and singer on "10.000"? They sure ain't there on "Here You Come" (or indeed the waltz side).

[phredl]

Ted formed a new band in 1933 kept his star players and added quite a few more. Impossible to judge earlier recordings with these. Jazznocracy and White Heat are Lewis, all you have to do is listen to "There's Gonna' Be A Wedding In The Band". Obviously the same orchestra.

trying to dismiss 10,000 and Rhythm by sound is like trying to dismiss Isham Jones' "One Little Word Led To Another" (first Victor session) with "Please Handle With Care"(last Brunswick session) as not by Isham Jones.

[harryoakley]

@phredl You still don't seem to understand. I would accept that Lewis had changed his style completely for "Rhythm" and "10.000" had these been recorded at different sessions. But "Rhythm" was apparently recorded at the same session as "Lazybones" (which I will upload on YouTube today) and they are completely different bands. Equally, "10.000" was recorded at the same session as "Here You Come With Love"; and again, this is a totally different personnel.

[phredl]

This can be a very interesting and enlightning conversation. The two Zombies I have are actually both by Kardos. One on Crown recorded Oct 1932 under Shaw and the other recorded by the ARC group. in June 1934. The Crown issued as "White" Zombie is a bit slower and harder hitting. The ARC is faster and slicker. They would both be considered "Flag Wavers" fast high energy dance numbers like "Casa Loma Stomp" There are no solo's in either one. I don't believe there are any other versions out there

[phredl]

The two versions of Zombie that I have are indeed extreemly hot. I may be wrong but I don't believe that by this time Columbia was using pseudonyms on their records. I do agree that we can't prove they were recorded the same day but the odds are in it's favor. Different opinions are why these discussions are always so interesting.

[harryoakley]

@phredl Hot as your other versions of "Zombie"may be (what are they?) it says nothing about the band that performed the rejected 152421. I did not say that Columbia used "pseudonyms". They did, however, issue certain band titles under other band names (again: Selvin - Whiteman). What is more important though, is that the Lewis band did not sound one bit like the "10.000"/"Rhythm" band and that clearly different musicians were involved. I am convinced that there were two different bands.

[phredl]

Thanks for the response. My point was that Zombie certainly a hot tune has a matrix right in the middle of the other three. The one before a Lewis and the one following also obviously a Lewis. we all know the arrangement dictates the sound of any particular recording. It appears that the same person did the arrangements on not only Rhythm, probably Zombie and also the Decca's of White Heat and Jazznocracy. I know it's conceivable but not likely that the unknown band recorded all four sides.

[harryoakley]

@phredl "Zombie" - POSSIBLY a hot tune, is indeed in the middle of two genuine Lewis sides, followed by "Rhythm". I believe that two bands were involved. It is not 100% necessary that all these were recorded on the same day. Mx re-numbering HAS occurred, and sides HAVE been issued under other band names. (Selvin/Whiteman for instance). I believe that "Rhythm" and "10.000" (and maybe "Zombie") were recorded by a different band but issued as by Ted Lewis.

[phredl]

Sounds like "I'm A Highly Educated Man"

[phredl]

The fact that the matrix numbers from the four sides recorded on June 22 are consecutive and that Zombie was rejected would lead me to believe that Lewis recorded all four sides. Zombie most likely was arranged very similar to Rhythm. There would be no need to give a new matrix to a song that was never issued.

[harryoakley]

@phredl The fact that the mx numbers are consecutive does not mean they are all recorded by Lewis. Actually the other titles sound completely different, not only the arrangemenst, but also different rhythm section, different soloists and, most importantly, Ted Lewis himself vocals. This is not the Lewis band but it is probably the same band which recorded "Rhythm".

[harryoakley]

Rust (who is completely wrong about this) also names the unknown singer as Ted Lewis which is nonsense, but neither is it Vernon Dalhart as has been suggested by some.

[klutzyknockoutlady]

No arguments from me on any of that. Rust didn't even include this track in the edition I have of "Jazz Records", which indicates he didn't listen to it (or think that it was jazz!). I'm  suspicious in that the groove of this performance is a lot like "Rhythm", recorded just one month before this one. Also, there is no vocal by anybody on "Here You Come", and this was also the last documented Ted Lewis Columbia session. Vocalist is Arthur Fields, maybe??? LOL! Definitely not Dalhart

[harryoakley]

@klutzyknockoutlady Indeed - I was coming to that. It sounds like the same orchestra which recorded "Rhythm", recorded roughly a month earlier. This leads to the possibility that both "Rhythm" and "10.000 Years" were actually recorded on the same date by a different band but issued under Lewis' name, while the mx. number of the latter was re-numbered to fit the first upcoming Lewis recording date.

[klutzyknockoutlady]

@harryoakley Finally, don't forget that these tracks are all supposed to have been recorded in Chicago, not New York, as "Rhythm" is supposed to have been. Soloists aside, I still say that there are a bunch of Lewis records from this period that feature similar arrangements and ensemble playing. Check out "Jazznocracy" and "White Heat", made at Ted's next recording session, which was his first one for Decca.Who knows? It's like, man, is it really Goldkette or McKinney"s?

[harryoakley]

@klutzyknockoutlady To my ears the band that recorded "10.000" is different from the one that recorded "Here You Come" and "Little Locket". But it sounds very much like the band that recorded "Rhythm" in NY a month earlier. That leads me to believe that "10.000" and "Rhythm" were actually recorded on the same date by a different band.

[harryoakley]

@klutzyknockoutlady "Rhythm" was issued as by Ted Lewis on Columbia 2786-D coupled with "Lazybones" (clearly a genuine Ted Lewis recording) and "10.000" was re-numbered and was coupled with "Little Locket" (also clearly a real Ted Lewis side). It wasn't unusual for Columbia to use false names on the label; there are a few Ben Selvin recordings issued as Paul Whiteman, on the personal Paul Whiteman "potato head" label.

[klutzyknockoutlady]

Actually, this does indeed sound like the Ted Lewis band of the period, i.e. the late Columbia and early Decca recordings, and Rust doesn't state otherwise.

The singer sounds like Arthur Hall or John Ryan, but I'm just guessing on that one.

[harryoakley]

@klutzyknockoutlady Strange that you should say that because actually it sounds completely different from the two other sides recorded later that dayby the real Ted Lewis band, on which you can recognize all the Lewis regulars including Muggsy, Brunies, Barth, Klein, and of course Lewis himself. None of these can be heard here, instead there is an unknown trumpet soloist, (probably black) tenorsax, clarinet, trombone, bass (definitely not Barth) and, an unknown singer. (continued above)