Why Would a Good God Send People to Hell?

[famousdavis1]

Will a person be less free in the kingdom of heaven because they no longer possess the capacity to sin? No, they will be truly free. God is not less free because He cannot sin. Americans cling to the western idea that supposed possible choices equal freedom, but the Bible teaches that freedom exists in only being able to do what is right. Sinners aren't free; God is free -- and He cannot choose to sin. The Dutch theologian, G K Berkouwer, would be well worth your time.

[soulationdotorg]

@famousdavis1, Not only Berkouwer, but this idea was championed by Augustine 1600 years ago (he was Western in his thinking too as a Neo-Platonist). Yes, freedom is not necessitated by choosing evil. We can have libertarian freedom in some instances and not others. I don't think we're fully free, but we are free enough to love nor not love with God's grace raining on the just and unjust.

[famousdavis1]

I've stumbled upon you and your wife's ministry -- very interesting and needed. However I find your espoused view of salvation, free will, and grace disturbing. The only absolutely "free" will is God's -- all of God's creatures have wills that make choices based upon external influences and circumstances. Certainly the Bible teaches that's man's will is enslaved to sin and that apart from God's arresting grace he will persist in shunning and distorting God's displays of common grace.

[soulationdotorg]

@famousdavis1 We don't mean to disturb you. I agree that God's will is the only absolutely free one. But I don't think humans ONLY make choices based on "external influences and circumstances." A certain theological construct may say such, but that wouldn't be the only lens with which to see Scripture. The Bible does teach we are enslaved to sin, but it is quite insistent that we have choices to make whether to love or not. Unless God is being deceitful an only pretending we have choices.

[ridrid96]

I think the thing about god is its all about his glory, its not so much a conscious choose to go to hell but a lack of interest in glorify a power that says glorify me of suffer forever. We have no choice to be born and I feel the whole reason god created mankind is because he wants to be glorified and if one fails to glorify god than god at least has the satisfaction of knowing that one will suffer forever. Does sound like much of a choice.

[soulationdotorg]

@ridrid96, If God created humans ONLY because he wants to be glorified, that would seem a bit narcissitic to me. I think he is glorified and our purpose is to glory, but I don't think that's why he was created. After all, he didn't lack glory before he created, so we didn't add one whit to it.

And I don't think that God is satisfied when someone suffers forever. I think he is saddened that people do not want his love. Hell just happens to be what it looks like without love.

[EmeiBaguazhang]

I have a better story.

There is a infant in a burning building. The baby can do NOTHING to save herself (In the same way God says we are powerless to save ourselves).

The fireman (God) asks the baby: "Would you like to be saved from these flames??" The baby, of course, just cries. The fireman leaves, because the fireman didn't want to be a "Cosmic Kidnapper!!"

That is the situation that you are putting God in.

God did not ASK Paul (Formerly Saul) if he wanted to be blind for three days!!!

[soulationdotorg]

EmeiBaguazhang... thanks for taking the time to comment.

What you've criticized is a Calvinist view of Christianity, which says we can do NOTHING to save ourselves. As you said, this can make us like an infant in a burning building.

But since I think Calvinism, as you've described it, isn't in the Bible, the point doesn't hold. We CAN do something to save ourselves, namely let the fireman lead us through the smoke and into the wide world again.

As for Paul, he was glad for it. Read him.

[EmeiBaguazhang]

My point about Paul was not whether or not he was grateful or not AFTER his conversion, but that BEFORE his conversion, God Knocked him off the horse and made him blind for three days!

I am sure that Paul wanted NOTHING to do with God, before he was converted, since he was in his way to kill as many Christians as he could lay his hands on.

There was NO FREE WILL with Paul, or Pharaoh (Who was risen up FOR that very day) or anyone.

[soulationdotorg]

I think your assumption is that Paul did not want God but God forced himself on Paul. That assumption is false.

Paul wanted the God of Israel and through he was actually serving him. He didn't know the God of the Christians was the same God. It was the Messiah of the God of Israel who knocked him off his horse. Paul realized this after being blind for three days. Nothing wrong with a bit of suffering to clear our minds.

There is free will. This has been a long Christian teaching.

[EmeiBaguazhang]

Let me get this straight, you are telling me that Saul was SERVING GOD, by Killing Christians!!!???

Well, I would have to say that I adamantly DISAGREE with you! I do not think Saul was thinking he was serving God by killing his fellow man. And I think God would agree!

Paul even called himself the CHIEF OF ALL SINNERS!

But you think that Saul, on his way to kill Many, many more Christians, REALLY, secretly wanted to BE ONE!???

Sorry,...that is absurd. God though NOTHING of what Saul wanted!

[soulationdotorg]

Yes, he did THINK he was serving God by killing Christians. He thought "Christians" were distorting the Jewish faith. He didn't realize till later that Jesus was part of his faith.

Unless you see the Bible as a whole, both Old and New Testaments, you'll miss the context Paul was operating in before he met Jesus on the road to Damascus.

So, you see, it isn't absurd after all. It's pretty straightforward in the Bible. But if that's what's keeping you from following Jesus, I'd reconsider.

[EmeiBaguazhang]

As for your fireman scenario, it is NOT accurate, since God says we can do NOTHING without him,......including getting saved.

Even the decision to Choose God is NOT up to us, since "We do NOT choose him, but HE chooses US!"

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

John 15: for without me ye can do nothing.

You have heard it said: "No man seeks after God,......NO NOT ONE!!"

There is NO way ANY man can "Get Saved", it is ALL up to God.

[soulationdotorg]

All of these verses are out of context: Jesus chooses his disciples, not chooses who will be saved. Phil 2:12 is the free will portion of verse 13. John 15 is about abiding in Jesus love. Romans 3 is a quotation from Psalms where people did seek after God... it was the rebellious who didn't and are the subject of inquiry. So none of the verses you've listed mean what you want them to mean. And if that's what's keeping you from Jesus, good news!, you can reconsider him again.

[soulationdotorg]

@EmeiBaguazhang We all assume the baby wants to be rescued because of the flames. But our video isn't about flames. People of the lie refuse to be rescued because the flames are less painful than love.

Paul and his blindness was for his own benefit. We all experience pain unasked for. The question is what we do with it. There was enough love in Paul that he was redeemable. Again, this about love and unlove, not about pain and pleasure.

[soulationdotorg]

@EmeiBaguazhang @EmeiBaguazhang @EmeiBaguazhang We all assume the baby wants to be rescued because of the flames. But our video isn't about flames. People of the lie refuse to be rescued because the flames are less painful than love.

Paul and his blindness was for his own benefit. We all experience pain unasked for. The question is what we do with it. There was enough love in Paul that he was redeemable. Again, this about love and unlove, not about pain and pleasure.

[soulationdotorg]

Thanks for the feedback and encouragement...you 'get' it.

Your comment makes me realize we need to include something of this hell perspective in our book on making the most of spiritual small talk. Recommend that to your hubby too. ;) (it'll be out this winter)

[drjonbecker]

new thought for me--'what makes us think that after not choosing God in this life, we would want to choose Him in the next'--rings true. Loving the way you re-ask the questions and re-tell the stories we still need to ponder, even those of us who have 'known' them from childhood. I'll share this with my hubby's evangelism training class--we're asking ourselves how God can revise our 'rhetoric' in evangelism so we can enjoy attracting and engaging others in this new life.

[bloodyleech]

wow!!!! u guys got me on the lie with the court of law........ u guys rock! please keep preaching u guys share the gospel in a i don't know its... kool is different.

[soulationdotorg]

bloodyleech... thanks! We work hard to tell the truth clearly, the best we understand it... Glad the video was a help. ~dale

[soulationdotorg]

You've stereotyped a bit and I wonder if you've listened to the whole video, especially the part that maybe hell's gates are wide open but people don't want to leave or that our souls are twisted and how hell is a place where we are free from God's presence should we choose it.

Hell may not be torture at all, but sheer chosen isolation.

Your explanation is a typical one that hasn't wrestled with the real issue.

Besides, knowing that someone will commit a crime is not the same as causing it.