feminism is right up there with islam, authored by satan and designed for chaos and confusion on the earth and pushing satan's end of time agenda forward, at the same time under minding God. Steinem should be hunted down, arrested and inprisoned for crimes against humanity. Granted there were equality issues needing to be addressed but, the way they were addressed and the fall out is almost if not worse than what they had when they began.
Steinem was pwned. 2nd wave feminism = white women suddenly deciding they should leave the home. 1st wave = My great grandmother was working outside the home way before Miss Anne decided to get up off her ass. - Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman....etc.
Steinem was pwned. She is completely terrified. She knows she can't shake her bunny tail at MHL and get away with it. And how dare she bring up Chisolm - She stabbed Shirley Chisolm in the BACK.
To murder children is probably the worst of all crimes a "human" can commit. But, to be so incredibly smug about her murderous ways is beyond belief. To take pride in the murder of a child is the work Satan, which she is a follower of.
This almost makes me laugh (although it is really kind of sad when you think about it) because it is a perfect example of how too many political arguments transpire. Two people with almost identical views debate back and forth not realizing that they essentially arguing the exact same point just differently.
Gloria Steinem is such an arrogant asshole. She is a matriarchial shithead. Gloria Steinem would be selling used cars if the CIA would not have funded Ms. Magazine.
this proves amy is a fake like most media personalities. no mention that gloria steinem AKA failed magazine publisher, failed journalist, supporter of population control was a CIA operative.
The Right is clearly more concerned with women's issues (translation: wimminses issues) since they're the only ones concerned with forced abortion and population control in China and elsewhere, or the treatment of women under Islam. Gloria Steinem, Molly Yard, Patricia Ireland, Helen Clark, et al, have all defended or even openly funded forced abortion/sterilisation and population control in places like China through the organisations UNFPA and IPPF. Ever question your beliefs, feminists?
lol @ Clinton describing this election as especially exciting due to the candidacy of a woman and a black man and then going on to say that she wants neither gender nor race to be a factor. What bullshit.
Here's a crazy idea to consider, Gloria: the reason race is a bigger factor is because racial minorities are actual minorities and don't represent 52% of the population. Also, they have a real history of oppression, even slavery, and not just a history of changing roles.
steinem ALWAYS pushed in-bed-with-the-FBI hollywood propaganda about marilyn monroe.
actively helped to sell misogynist views of a top working class actress which is typical of bourgoise women - pleasing men is job 1. she even participated in a PBS documentary with norman mailer. the most notorious woman hater of all time.
a man marlyn despised before he tried stabbing his wife to death, yet gloria tolerated.
@ChaimYosefMiller So last time I checked "purely black" is not a partisan view. I don't even know what that means?? Harris-Lacewell merely argued that her attempt to speak for black women actually silenced black women as her article made a dichotomy between race and gender that did not effectively account for the experiences of black women
women's movement is not a white women's institution but a diverse force of consciousness by many female and MALE feminists on the complex ways that gender oppression works. If you actually read Steinem's article she simply says if Obama was a BLACK WOMAN, he would get more flack. Hasnt been a black female president yet, like there has not been a latina one. At any rate, ranking oppressions is absurd, they all intersect. Read nativeamerican feminist to get beyond these arguments of division.
As a Chicana feminist, I am offended by the sweeping generalizations Harris Lacewell is making about the second wave being only made of white women. The fact is this stereotype and has been used as a patriarchal tool to deligitimize the women's movement on a whole. In fact, there were many prominent black and CHICANA and other diverse women and MEN feminists in the second wave.
@BoysForPele1989 Didn't the intersection of ppl of color/GLTBQ rights and etc. start the third wave? I think her "sweeping generalization" is right. Even if there were authors of color in the 2nd wave they didn't get much attention until teh era of bell hooks , audra lourde etc.
lacewell's talent is rhetoric. steinem's life experiences and action loom far larger. lacewell TALKS feminism (secondary to racism); steinem has LIVED it!
@JusticeWillPrevail1 R u serious? R u saying that Gloria Steinem is more of a feminist because as a white privileged woman, the only discrimination she's ever had to deal with is sexism? What, Ms. Lacewell is only moonlighting as a feminist because you think her real allegiance is 2 the black cause? Struggles against discrimination and inequality, especially when u suffer their effects, r not some kind of trade that one specializes in. Ms. Lacewell has lived the struggle too. U should be ashamed
hey gloria you jerk! still palls with your racist monster friend Brownmiller! Couldn't follow lacewell but you know I damn well knew what Fannie Lou Hamer was talking about! Unita Blackwell Anelle Ponder, Septima Clarke! Steinem you had the nerve to insult Mrs. Hamer! And your pal Brownmiller is a monster--I suspect Lacewell was trying to be gracious --but steinem go fuck off!! Go hang with the monster Brownmiller
@thirdshift47 I have to look it up I think Steinem insulted Dr. Spock and Mrs. Hamer got up and said :Shame on you I know what it is to be insulted" and left.
Brownmiller says Emmet Till had it coming to him and I know Steinem is pals with her. I have supported womens movements all over the world except here in America and I never will
I always thought Gloria was hot and I wouldn't mind sharing a bed for a weekend with her to cuddle if she didn't drive her knee-cap into my scrotilia first.
Oh God, Lacewell bodies Steinem here! This is an intellectual as kicking of the highest order. Look at her game face before the debate started, she's like a young boxer coming in to take the title from the champ. A new wave of feminism is born...
Gloria didn't really have any substance to back up her article. Melissa destroyed her intellectually. Atleast Gloria apologized. Hey, if ya' wrong, don't stick your foot into more shit. It's was a respectful debate.
Gloria is misunderstood, as is the feminist movement. Racism is still a problem, probably worse than sexism. But sexism goes unnoticed, unike racism. That's all Gloria is trying to say.
Ms. Lacwell is a credit to the American intellectual community. She understands the concept of complexity and has trained herself to explain this to a general public. Gloria Steinem doesn't really understand why her parallel is offending nor does she understand what is at the heart of 2nd wave white feminism: revenge! The idea that Clinton "has the understanding of Washington written on her skin" is a gross inflation. Ms. Lacewell, you touch my 73 year old, black, male heart! Go, girl!
Wow look at all the comments. It shows how many people are threatened by strong, feminist women. Willing to attack her so crudely calling her "bitch" and "cunt" and gloating about anyone debating her. It's disgusting really. People are so threatened by Gloria Steinem. She's a great woman and my hero and has done so much for feminism, she's brilliant.
@Tigerlily21 "Briliant"? Did we just watch the same video. She got bodied. It was an intellectual ass kicking of the first order. I agree that the crude comments need to go, but people are right to point out that Gloria Steinem didn't have a leg to stand on in this debate. And her article was truly offensive. The truth is she's a relic from the 60's. Women have a different set of problems in this millennium, and insensitive, thoughtless, privileged white women like her don't help.
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Two politically correct nutjobs butting vaginas over the relative importance of their nonsensical pet social issues. Women should have zero say in politics, and neither should any mangina who thinks women should have any say, much less be a leader. I've never met a woman with an intelligent political opinion in my life, as politics require objectivity and women have never evolved the capacity to view the world objectively, as there were never any evolutionary pressures in this direction.
The only reason Steinem supported Hillary over Obama is gender, plain and simple. She's not woman enough to admit it. I love the fact the she mentioned the Hillary nutcracker as something pornographic. That's pornographic? It was a joke! This is just another example of a feminist making much ado about nothing.
This is ridiculous. The fact that Gloria Steinem had an abortion in 1955 cannot discredit her opinions about feminism and politics. Why don't you guys listen to the actual debate instead of bitch about what has nothing to do with this?
To be a mother is such an awesome privilege from which all genuine authorities emanate. Voluntary departure from such an opportunity is nothing short of insanity. No, rather, it's betrayal against God, against nature, and against humanity.
Excuse me, because someone does not have children they are betrayer agisnt god, nature and humanity? Now is this just for the women or men too? It's pretty disgusting anyone would think of someones choice to not bring a child into this horribly messed up world as betraying humanity.
Excuse me, because someone does not have children they are betrayer agisnt god, nature and humanity? Now is this just for the women or men too? It's pretty disgusting anyone would think of someones choice to not bring a child into this horribly messed up world as betraying humanity.
I myself don't have a child and that's why I realize how important and blessing to parent children. Sorry, if it hurt you but I still believe what I said.
What does this have to do with the discussion above? What the hell are you going on about? Sorry if you're hurt about not having a child...maybe you should go out and adopt one of the millions of orphaned children out there who need a home instead of preaching about how horrible someone is for exercising their choice to have or not to have a child.
i respect your ideas. however, there is 6 billion people in the world, maternity shouldn't be held as high as if it were to save us as a species. in fact, is what is killing this world. the more people there are, the more we destroy nature because of all the things that a new life needs for survival. think about it. you might think abortion is short from insanity, but in reality it could be the last and most reasonable way to control human population, not to mention it could save the world.
Only 6B. The cold intellect shouldn't be held such highly. In fact, the runaway intellect is what is killing this world. The more such intellect, the more we destroy because of all the things that such intellect severs. Think about it. You are made to think more birth is short from insanity, but in reality, it could be the most reasonable way to save the world. When a family became congested, you shall not apply that cold intellect, for they are meant to unite to be more productive.
no intelect is killing this world. i'm talking scientific research, the world is overpopulated with humans. when a species has exhausted its resources on the area where it lives, then it is said to be overpopulated. we humans have done that everywhere we go. but we manage to keep on reproducing like bunnies without thinking of the repercussions it might trigger on the environment. in fact, overpopulation is one of the main causes of global warming and destruction of natural environment.
acording to science, people as we know it have existed for about 100,000 years. we just have reached the first billion 200 years ago. we have grown 5 billion this last 200 years. this type of exponential growth is unprecedented. it is said that the earth's capacity is of 12 billion, meaning that all natural resources must be depleted for human consumption. woman empowerment has been succesful in lowering the birth rates of countries such as japan.
Last time i checked,Japan was in a population crisis with approx. only 1.26 births per mother--hardly enough to sustain a stable population and world leading economy(coupled with the fact that they also have the largest aging population and one of the smallest immigrant populations in the developed world).In the US,'woman empowerment',amongst social advances for women,has also lead to domestic welfare for childbarers.
yes, those facts are true. japan's population has shrunk, something unprecedented in their nation's history. 50 years ago, there wasn't a "shortage" of people in japan. scientinsts have concluded that the reason why the number of people is going down is that there are more women getting educated and on the labor force. it is in those same 50 years that japan has grown to become a leading economy.
Even if the world were overpopulated with humans,mankind,by every means of war-terror will find increasingly new creative,sociopathic ways to counter it,as for nature,she is destruction incarnate(just ask the Chinese and Burmese amongst others)inspite of man's contributions to climate change.The real problem is with Americans as world leaders in per capita consumption rates:the average American consumes the equivalent of 32 Kenyans per day,and the rest of the world(understandably)wants in.
1st: I have long admired Steinem's work but I, too, was deeply offended by her NY Times Op-Ed piece. It's offensive for anyone to suggest that one form of oppression is more powerful than another because, as Lacewell states, all oppressions are interlocked. For ex, a middle-class white woman might be oppressed by sexism, but women of color are oppressed by both sexism & racism. Steinem also disregards the US's long & bloody history of black men's oppression by white men & white women when she
2nd: [cont'd]...refers to the recognition of black men's voting whites before "women's" in an attempt to prove her claim that "women" -- as a group -- "are never fore-runners." This statement is offensive for so many reasons -- one of them being that the vast majority of black men *and* women did not vote until the mid-1960s because they lived in the South where the were subject to legalized race segregation (e.g. Jim Crow) & the economic repression & violence that kept it in place.
For years the family was held together by gender roles. What peplexes me is how some liberals seem to have disdain for this precedent despite the fact that the fallout from the sexual revolution has resulted in regression, especially when it comes to the well-being of the family. We have sacrificed cohesion between men and women for so-called " new opportunities".
3rd: [cont'd]... which means that white women voted at least 40 yrs before any black person accessed the ballot. I am deeply disappointed that Steinem would suggest otherwise. Steinem takes her flawed analysis further when she states that Obama will win the nomination before Clinton -- because he is a black man (!!!) as though black men have equal access to patriachal power as the wealthy white male ruling class -- as though wealthy white men collude to protect black men's interests...
4th: Wealthy white men benefit fr. oppressing black men *and* white women as well as women of color -- Steinem doesn't acknowledge that in her Op-Ed or in the debate with Lacewell. Finally, Steinem refers to "women's oppression" as a universal. She doesn't distinguish btwn women fr. varying class backgrounds, women of color & white women, queer women (etc.,). Again, not all women are oppressed the same way. White women don't have gender privilege but they do have race privilege, which means...
5th: [cont'd]...that white women benefit from racism/the oppression of women of color. Steinem invokes a (fictitious) example of an upper-middle-class black woman's gender subordination to show the way in which Hillary Clinton -- a wealthy white woman -- is disadvantaged by sexism (!!??). Clinton's experience of sexism will differ drastically from that of any woman of color's (regardless of class) b/c of the power & privilege attached to Clinton's whiteness.
@knowyourenemy1 Im sorry but not all white people have power and privilege. That's a sweeping generalization to the point you made before about oppressions being interlocked. You act as if no black families have economic power. Believe me in the neighborhood I come from class has more of an affect on the impoverished white, black, and latina drug addicts. To say class never changes anything when it come to race is entirely misleading. I have wealthy latina friends and poor ones that can attest.
6th: [cont'd] Unfortunately, Steinem's argument is a glaring example of many white feminists' refusal to acknowledge their complicity in women of color's oppression, & thus, their participation in upholding white supremacy. When you, "jjkilk1," suggest that Lacewell should be more polite? more subtle? in challenging Steinem's racism - you fail to empathize with the experiences of the many women of color who have struggled for inclusion in feminist spaces & society in general.
@jjkilk1 I think the offense was just her passions got the best of her, if Steinem made a similar assertion about Chicana feminists I would wholeheartedly agree with her as a chicana feminist, because at the end of the day Steinem is not ranking oppressions. MHL just didnt understand that, I guess.
I loved Gloria's suggestion that George Bush III would have been a used car salesman if he weren't white, male, had a famous father etc. How many people do you know have a C average in college who get to hold the highest position in the nation for 8 years & nearly destroy it in many ways. He clearly was not qualified for the position & his election was not fairly won. I don't see anti-affirmative action proponents jumping up and down about the advantages that "legacies" like George Dubya have.
And why it that at any point that racial minorities is are made to be accountable for their prejudice and its violent results -homophobia, violence against women- the cultural argument is used in order to absolve them of that. However how are the acts of white men against a racial minority different than those of a racial minority towards women and gays? Look at how Coretta Scott King was reproached by her community when she stood up for gay rights. But somehow this kind of prejudice is ok?
It is interesting to see that while racial minorities get their arms up every chance they get -as Lacewell is doing with Steinem over a racial vendetta-; racial minorities propagate, endorse and further homophobia in large numbers, therefore acting like the white men they hate. For example take rap music. Highly homophobic, and grossly misogynist, again, aside from Eminem there is no large numbers of white men who are sending out this message to impressionable youth by means of art.
Qrstance: when you 1) condemn people of color for challenging racism where they experience it, 2) stereotype people of color as homophobic, & 3) to villify rap music as misogynist -- you perpetuate a number of different racist (& incorrect) views abt. people of color. People of color are no more or less homophobic than white people (Read Keith Boykin). The white male majority in Congress, for ex, refuse to grant lgbtq people full equality to heterosexuals.
Why are my views racist and yet your want to drive away from the homophobia and mysoginy endorsed and propagated by racial minorties not considered homophobic. You care only about blacks. You don't give a damn about the gays that have been victimized because of racial minorities. And don't give me the argument of white man profit, cuz then you're saying racial minorities don't have enough of a will to break from that oppression. They must continue that prejudice as means of survival?
[contd] The rap music industry is controlled by white male executives who believe that only the worst (racist) representations of (largely) black men will be consumed by an audience that's 60% white (Read Tim Wise's article on Don Imus). Consequently, there's so much antiracist, antisexist, anticlassist, positive & progressive rap music out there that won't be played on mainstream radio stations. I suggest you educate yourself & challenge your own prejudices by seeking out these rap artists.
Right and the blacks that participate in that industry are forced into it right? Just like men who are now making concious choices in regards to their approach towards women? Your argument is a deflective one. And the ignorance of which you accuse me of the same kind that Lacewell shows when having obviously not paid attention to the fact that the feminist movement always aligned itself to the struggles of the blacks. Stops being so ethnocentric and see past your victimhood.
I am open to a discussion -- please, cite the sources that support your argument that white feminists have *always* linked their struggle to that of people of color? Give me authors? Name activists? Books? Anything... I study U.S. history... I see no evidence whatsoever in U.S. history for such a broad sweeping claim.
Start with Germaine Greer. Who has been an avid supported of the aborgines of Australia. Then there's Gloria Steinmen herself. There's actually a video here from back in the day and she was already talking about the oppression of blacks. Then move on to Simone de Beauvoir in "The Ethics of Ambiguity" and then Naomi Wolf who has always as Marxist feminists recognized marginalization. It's interesting to note that feminists have also never excluded women, as you are attempting to do, as it MHL.
2nd: I agree, rap artists of color are not directly *forced* into complicity in perpetuating racism/sexism/homophobia-I don't dispute that. I am simply challenging you to be open to the *possibility* that your view could be more complicated, more sophisticated when you incorporate an understanding of how institutional racism has functioned historically to limit the choices of people of color. For ex, a disproportionate number of transgender people are forced to do sex work b/c...
And those are patriarchal values that are being brought into the gay community. But at one point racial minorities have to start taking responsibilities. Look at the flack that Oprah has gotten because she doesn't endorse the mysoginy og rap artists. Why? So since she's standing up for her womanhood she betrays her race? Then that's a double standard that's been inflicted upon women by black men isn't? And what's more important race of gender? Because to ask for modification is betrayal/racism.
3rd:[cont'd] ...genderism/institutionalized transphobia & heterosexism limit their choices in jobs. The vast majority of transgender people won't be hired for middle & high income jobs as *out* transgenders because of historical, systematic prejudice against them. So would you then blame transgender people who, in the face of horrific discrimination, decide to engage in sex work, for ex, or take a role in a film that promotes negative stereotypes about transwomen & transmen just to survive?
Are you talking about transgendered individuals or hermaphrodites? The transgender issue is more of a choice to alter one's sexuality than a condition that the person was born with. Some people may argue that feeling like you are born with the wrong gender is inherent, but straddling the fence(for lack of a better term) is viewed as more radical than just homosexuality by itself.
@Donpopeel Let me tell you from personal experience: The 'choice' was between aligning my presentation with my gender identity or losing the will to live. Pretending to be a boy didn't work.
No, I wouldn't. But in school we do indeed learn about slavery whereas where is the gay oriented sexual education curriculm for ALL students not just one set. And yes there are ways in which trangendered inviduals feed into heterosexist and patriarchal and homphobic notions about them. Gay men are also at fault of their detriment when they feed the heterosexual male. But here's a better question for you. As a gay black man who his greater oppressor is. The white man, or the straight black man.
4th: [cont'd] ...I also find it interesting that you accuse me of ethnocentrism and self-victimization... are you making an assumption about my race? There are plenty of people -- of all races -- that think like me. Some of them identify as white-antiracists... you should check their work out: Tim Wise, Molly Secours, Inga Muscio (her 2nd book), even comic artist Alison Bechdal are great places to start.
And you are accusing me of only being concerned with that which concerns me individually. You dismmised the fact, didn't even take into consideration that I myself am a racial minority. You assumed that I was a white gay, never did it cross your mind that I am a racial minority. One that is treated like shit in America. I am a Latino. But that, that didn't enter your mind. You here are the one that's prejudiced. And maybe you should check that. How dare YOU tell ME what my struggle should be.
Lacewell is a detriment to the movement because one thing that she seems to be neglecting is that while we have many steps forward when it comes to racial prejudice; all cultures regardless of religion and race are still very much subjugating and desecrating women. And it is not white men, or white women who are cutting off clitorises of little girls in Africa, nor is it white men and white women that are putting burkas on women in fundamentalist Islamic regimes. Racial victimization is passé.
When she discusses the Civil Rights Mvmnt (in part 3), Lacewell is stating that sexism is present in antiracist movements & racism is present in antisexist movements. She *never* says-not once!-that white men are the only creatures on the planet that engage in sexism. You, however, seem preoccupied w/ spotlighting communities of color's participation in oppression that is present in most of the world's various racial communities.
I don't think I denied that that oppression doesn't exist in all cultures. That would be ludicrous to admit. However, there is no significant movement being made by racial minorities to quash the homophobia within their own circles. They are too pre-occupied in their fantasy that the world is still back in the height of lynching. Sorry, but in the world as we speak gays have only begun to scratch the surface of rights that racial minorities have had for a while.
I don't know because i live in the states,but how is it that Canadian's seem to think that their community realities are directly reflective of those of us here.Because to be fair,although homophobia is indeed a glaring reality,to compare homophobia--a social anxiety--to institutional forms of racism that we still contend with here is just flat out foolish.Gay acceptance in mainstream society is indeed an issue of 'rights';everything from housing to freedom itself are dire concerns for blacks.
hang on a second. This is indeed the reality for gays world wide. It is a life or death situation. Was it not in the U.S. where recently a boy of 15 was shot because he gave a valentine's day card to another boy? How is this not an issue? I find it very hypocritical to go on about the evils of the white man, when black men are just as ferocious when it comes to the battiman. Is this not the case? But this isn't reserved for black men. What about Eminem? He got awarded for the things he said.
And gays haven't had to shove themselves into closets in order to keep their jobs and lives? And gays have not been killed all over the world because of who they are inherently? And are gays allowed to adopt just as easily as straights? And how do people react when gays move into the neighbourhood? Excluding areas like New York or Los Angeles, what are the living conditions of gays? FEAR.
I'm not going to get into a greatest victim match with you--Indeed,it takes a special kind of idiot not to be able to make rudimentary distinctions between the social maladies that blacks and gays,respectively,have suffered.
And yes,there is certainly a homophobic strain in the black male community,as there are patriarchal,sexist & even fundamentalist strains.Yet,historically,an epidemic of violent gay bashing has not been a characteristic of the black male community in the US.
Indeed,you in your strangely 'essentialist'--to borrow the thirdwave feminist term--view of homosexuality,and at the same time,very socially ill-defined ,seems to forget that there is a HUGE black homosexual community(indeed,most blacks in the states know somebody that's gay).Indeed,most homophobia amongst black males is passive--whereas most black on black androphobia(in a REAL epidemic of street violence),if you will,is deadly.
Lastly,for as much as homosexuality may be a taboo in the black community here in the states(i can't speak on Canada),the Black community has,by and large and uniformly,put its voting power behind those US candidates that are generally openly supportive of gay rights and concerns.Now the 70% white majority here seems to have felt otherwise---placing their 'moral' concerns over their economic concerns,electing that great progressive champion,Bush,for a second term.LOL!!
Yes. And your point is? So ok, because someone is a racial minority they should not be called on when they act evil? So basically white men should be held accountable for their crimes, but not racial minorities? Well there you go, you just acted as the white man did in terms of his justice. We know white men are evil. I've been hearing this since childhood. So what is the racial minorty male's excuse? They're supposed to be so beyond the West. So forward if it wasn't for the West's tinkering.
When you call "racial victimization passe" you prove that racism is alive & well -- and that you could care less about any form of oppression that doesn't directly impact you.
Don't go there. I'm hispanic and I'm also disabled. And being a person of three minorities in one, there is nothing compared to the homophobia that occurs on a daily basis. In the year 2008 a 15 year old is being shot because they are gay. You are attempting to deflect the oppression carried on by racial minorities in order to maintain victimhood. That victimhood can then be used as it has been as an instrument to excuse oppression on the premise of cultural identity and sensitivity.
Another howler from '72, this time from George Guaranteed-Minimum-Income McGovern: "No one has the right to live on inherited wealth". He and Steinem would have made quite a pair!
She "shredded" a woman that fought hard to help her get where she is today. Lacewell is articulate and obviously intelligent, but I thought she could've been more respectful. Even if she began her argument by stating what an honor to debate with such a woman who has done so much for woman's rights.
but that would require her to come down from her high horse of almighty martyrdom and have an actual conversation vs. convolutedly slamming "the enemy" every underhanded chance she gets. she's clearly built a career out of this kind of position taking, why would she stop now? just look at the comments here supportive of her. the truth is she was tactless & showy. anyone who's honest has to admit that.
Gloria Steinem knows nothing about American history. She bends over backwards to defend Senator Clinton and by doing so she skews simplifies history. I had no idea just how out of touch she is till this election. But that's what happens when people bow and scrap at your feet. You lose touch with the realities.
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It has always been hilarious to me how older left-liberal women are ideologically ugly--they always have the wrinkled neck and scraggly hair. Wonder if they've ever seen the inside of a beauty parlor--they never wear rouge or lipstick. Somewhere there has to be the big, thatched or woven carryall carried in solidarity with some special interest group or other. She should take lessons from Nancy Reagan on how to be a proper lady.
We'll see how you or your wife look at 74 years old...I'd say Miss S is in pretty good shape--much better than that "just say no" fool Nancy Reagan. Though this video doesn't support her intellectual strength as well as some of her other clips do.
"We'll see how you or your wife look at 74 years old"
74! I see several ladies in church every Sunday in their late 80's, early 90's, dressed to the nines with lovely hair who could pass for 74. My mother (1902-1997), dressed and behaved like a lady 'till the day she died. I always laughed at Steinem's comment at SMU in '72: I'm embarassed because I've never had a venereal disease (STD's today)--now that's serious ideology!
She was using sarcasm to assert that she failed to take full-advantage of relative gains in social-equality in form of sexual liberation afforded by the movement of which she was very much a part.
-- btw, thanks for the STD=VD reference, I don't know how anyone could have deciphered it without the reference (roll eyes)
If you think 90yr olds in lipstick and rouge is what being a lady is all about, why stop there? burka anyone?
"take full-advantage of relative gains in social-equality in form of sexual liberation"
Right! Now 1 in 4 teen-age girls has a venereal disease (er, STD)--we've gone from liberation to proliferation! Wonder how many of the original libbers from the early 70's are living with genital herpes for the rest of their lives now in their 50's and 60's? Real pioneers! Be careful what you wish for...
The point is that you you took the statement literally. 1/4 of teenage girls with an STD is more due to the logic-free, right-wing, abstinence-pledge idiots(I'm guessing you are one) than it is to the sexual liberation mov't. The 50's are gone (good ridance), ...get over it.
"1/4 of teenage girls with an STD is more due to the logic-free, right-wing, abstinence-pledge idiots(I'm guessing you are one) than it is to the sexual liberation mov't."
Guilty as charged! Hope they enjoy their doctor's appointments.
The highest and hardest glass ceiling.....did she just steal that from Langston Hughes? Is she trying to say that women are less advantaged than Blacks in the States? Come on Billary! No one told you to sit in the back of the bus.
Wow, that was fatiguing. Let's make life even more complex than it is.
FritzOmnibus 1 month ago
Gloria Steinem is apart of the protocols of the learned elders of zion!!!
bs10098121 1 month ago
feminism is right up there with islam, authored by satan and designed for chaos and confusion on the earth and pushing satan's end of time agenda forward, at the same time under minding God. Steinem should be hunted down, arrested and inprisoned for crimes against humanity. Granted there were equality issues needing to be addressed but, the way they were addressed and the fall out is almost if not worse than what they had when they began.
GTCism 1 month ago
I don't care what race a person is,but I believe gender always is a factor. When it comes to being President nobody wants to Leave it to Beaver!
irishgummybear 6 months ago
Steinem was pwned. 2nd wave feminism = white women suddenly deciding they should leave the home. 1st wave = My great grandmother was working outside the home way before Miss Anne decided to get up off her ass. - Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman....etc.
MrTracythomas1 6 months ago 2
Steinem was pwned. She is completely terrified. She knows she can't shake her bunny tail at MHL and get away with it. And how dare she bring up Chisolm - She stabbed Shirley Chisolm in the BACK.
MrTracythomas1 6 months ago
Russert was the greatest... his passing left "authentic political" debate behind that I don't know will ever return to the American conversation.
ZoraSearch 7 months ago
To murder children is probably the worst of all crimes a "human" can commit. But, to be so incredibly smug about her murderous ways is beyond belief. To take pride in the murder of a child is the work Satan, which she is a follower of.
VeryHugeAss 7 months ago
that bitch is the most arrogant asshole of all time.
VeryHugeAss 7 months ago
This almost makes me laugh (although it is really kind of sad when you think about it) because it is a perfect example of how too many political arguments transpire. Two people with almost identical views debate back and forth not realizing that they essentially arguing the exact same point just differently.
theoneandonlyCatseye 7 months ago
Holy Crap... home alone this B***, Melissa!
102936 8 months ago
Gloria Steinem is such an arrogant asshole. She is a matriarchial shithead. Gloria Steinem would be selling used cars if the CIA would not have funded Ms. Magazine.
VeryHugeAss 11 months ago
Melissa is just so much smarter and it REALLY shows.
david030491 11 months ago
She is so narrow-minded
VeryHugeAss 11 months ago
Melissa GOT her on this one lol
sosexyT06 1 year ago
this proves amy is a fake like most media personalities. no mention that gloria steinem AKA failed magazine publisher, failed journalist, supporter of population control was a CIA operative.
DickOPlenty 1 year ago 2
Everything should be Voluntary, the OPPOSITE of Socialism.
qwertypoiu4321 1 year ago
@qwertypoiu4321 voluntary regional collectivism IS socialism.
erdanidi 10 months ago
@erdanidi lol, mob rule is not voluntary.
qwertypoiu4321 10 months ago
The Right is clearly more concerned with women's issues (translation: wimminses issues) since they're the only ones concerned with forced abortion and population control in China and elsewhere, or the treatment of women under Islam. Gloria Steinem, Molly Yard, Patricia Ireland, Helen Clark, et al, have all defended or even openly funded forced abortion/sterilisation and population control in places like China through the organisations UNFPA and IPPF. Ever question your beliefs, feminists?
horsie111 1 year ago
When does a pile of shit ever admit that they have enough.
tothatextent 1 year ago
I bet she doesn't wash her cunt on a regular basis - it must stink.
tothatextent 1 year ago
@tothatextent nah I think Melissa fine ass stay fresh.
blackfreedommilitia 11 months ago
I love it when the "victims" turn on each other!!!
ashken79 1 year ago
lol @ Clinton describing this election as especially exciting due to the candidacy of a woman and a black man and then going on to say that she wants neither gender nor race to be a factor. What bullshit.
Here's a crazy idea to consider, Gloria: the reason race is a bigger factor is because racial minorities are actual minorities and don't represent 52% of the population. Also, they have a real history of oppression, even slavery, and not just a history of changing roles.
rooley 1 year ago 3
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funkbebe 1 year ago
gloria steinem is a 3ock-sucker.
a fake leftie is a successful leftie
steinem ALWAYS pushed in-bed-with-the-FBI hollywood propaganda about marilyn monroe.
actively helped to sell misogynist views of a top working class actress which is typical of bourgoise women - pleasing men is job 1. she even participated in a PBS documentary with norman mailer. the most notorious woman hater of all time.
a man marlyn despised before he tried stabbing his wife to death, yet gloria tolerated.
funkbebe 1 year ago
Ms. Lacewell came into the interview with a partisan view. Purely black. If everyone voted based on color, President Obama would not be in office.
ChaimYosefMiller 1 year ago
@ChaimYosefMiller So last time I checked "purely black" is not a partisan view. I don't even know what that means?? Harris-Lacewell merely argued that her attempt to speak for black women actually silenced black women as her article made a dichotomy between race and gender that did not effectively account for the experiences of black women
asanteosu5 1 year ago
It should have been Hilary.
ninashadows777 1 year ago 2
women's movement is not a white women's institution but a diverse force of consciousness by many female and MALE feminists on the complex ways that gender oppression works. If you actually read Steinem's article she simply says if Obama was a BLACK WOMAN, he would get more flack. Hasnt been a black female president yet, like there has not been a latina one. At any rate, ranking oppressions is absurd, they all intersect. Read nativeamerican feminist to get beyond these arguments of division.
BoysForPele1989 1 year ago
As a Chicana feminist, I am offended by the sweeping generalizations Harris Lacewell is making about the second wave being only made of white women. The fact is this stereotype and has been used as a patriarchal tool to deligitimize the women's movement on a whole. In fact, there were many prominent black and CHICANA and other diverse women and MEN feminists in the second wave.
BoysForPele1989 1 year ago
@BoysForPele1989 Didn't the intersection of ppl of color/GLTBQ rights and etc. start the third wave? I think her "sweeping generalization" is right. Even if there were authors of color in the 2nd wave they didn't get much attention until teh era of bell hooks , audra lourde etc.
asanteosu5 1 year ago
I mention Steinem in The History Song.
superdavid002 1 year ago
lacewell's talent is rhetoric. steinem's life experiences and action loom far larger. lacewell TALKS feminism (secondary to racism); steinem has LIVED it!
JusticeWillPrevail1 1 year ago
@JusticeWillPrevail1 R u serious? R u saying that Gloria Steinem is more of a feminist because as a white privileged woman, the only discrimination she's ever had to deal with is sexism? What, Ms. Lacewell is only moonlighting as a feminist because you think her real allegiance is 2 the black cause? Struggles against discrimination and inequality, especially when u suffer their effects, r not some kind of trade that one specializes in. Ms. Lacewell has lived the struggle too. U should be ashamed
triluv 1 year ago
what about working class women!! Black working class EVEN RACIST white working class women have I don't know what the word is "authenticity"?
I would like to see a debate between Steinem and oh say Unita Blackwell or even if she were alive Louise Day Hicks
vivascargill 1 year ago
hey gloria you jerk! still palls with your racist monster friend Brownmiller! Couldn't follow lacewell but you know I damn well knew what Fannie Lou Hamer was talking about! Unita Blackwell Anelle Ponder, Septima Clarke! Steinem you had the nerve to insult Mrs. Hamer! And your pal Brownmiller is a monster--I suspect Lacewell was trying to be gracious --but steinem go fuck off!! Go hang with the monster Brownmiller
vivascargill 1 year ago
What exactly did she say about Fannie Lou Hamer?
thirdshift47 1 year ago
@thirdshift47 I have to look it up I think Steinem insulted Dr. Spock and Mrs. Hamer got up and said :Shame on you I know what it is to be insulted" and left.
Brownmiller says Emmet Till had it coming to him and I know Steinem is pals with her. I have supported womens movements all over the world except here in America and I never will
vivascargill 1 year ago
A debate between two people that agree on 99.9999% of issues? Wow - this is deep. Democrats feasting at the table of identity politics.
kwmitch1 2 years ago
Melissa Harris Lacewell beat her bad -
Gloria time has past!
her white women only club is over!
Shiftyeyes516 2 years ago
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ERROLCUSTERFLYNN4EVR 2 years ago
Lacewell is on point.
mightyblack1 2 years ago
The short story by Kafka, Steinem is referring to, is "In the Penal Colony".
hyperseauton 2 years ago
White women are entitled and elitest and will refuse to acknowledge the uniqueness of the intersecting factors of gender and sex...
Hence the failure of 1st an 2nd wave feminism failed..
purpleness64 2 years ago 2
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gloria caused so much social damage to our country. bitch should have kept her job as a bunny and showed her tits.
jasop616 2 years ago
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this cunt caused the division of the sexes, forcing good men to live the TFL lifestyle
jasop616 2 years ago
are you going to leave this comment on all her videos, prick? get a life.
karlsmith00 2 years ago 2
I always thought Gloria was hot and I wouldn't mind sharing a bed for a weekend with her to cuddle if she didn't drive her knee-cap into my scrotilia first.
busterbone 2 years ago
Oh God, Lacewell bodies Steinem here! This is an intellectual as kicking of the highest order. Look at her game face before the debate started, she's like a young boxer coming in to take the title from the champ. A new wave of feminism is born...
kwandammit 2 years ago 18
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GORIA STEINEM-Relic of the 60's and overrated hack!
vastedda99 2 years ago
Gloria Steinhem is Christian Bale's step mother.
Rahab111222 2 years ago 2
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etherichands 2 years ago
Gloria didn't really have any substance to back up her article. Melissa destroyed her intellectually. Atleast Gloria apologized. Hey, if ya' wrong, don't stick your foot into more shit. It's was a respectful debate.
Mplay1983 2 years ago
Amazing debate. Lacewell is pretty awesome here.
PattiwhackPics 2 years ago
Melissa CRUSHED Gloria intellectually. The woman could not put an argument together to save her life.
cinemaman3105 2 years ago
Gloria is misunderstood, as is the feminist movement. Racism is still a problem, probably worse than sexism. But sexism goes unnoticed, unike racism. That's all Gloria is trying to say.
Tbozfan07 3 years ago 4
Ms. Lacwell is a credit to the American intellectual community. She understands the concept of complexity and has trained herself to explain this to a general public. Gloria Steinem doesn't really understand why her parallel is offending nor does she understand what is at the heart of 2nd wave white feminism: revenge! The idea that Clinton "has the understanding of Washington written on her skin" is a gross inflation. Ms. Lacewell, you touch my 73 year old, black, male heart! Go, girl!
a567and8 3 years ago
Wow look at all the comments. It shows how many people are threatened by strong, feminist women. Willing to attack her so crudely calling her "bitch" and "cunt" and gloating about anyone debating her. It's disgusting really. People are so threatened by Gloria Steinem. She's a great woman and my hero and has done so much for feminism, she's brilliant.
Tigerlily21 3 years ago 4
@Tigerlily21 "Briliant"? Did we just watch the same video. She got bodied. It was an intellectual ass kicking of the first order. I agree that the crude comments need to go, but people are right to point out that Gloria Steinem didn't have a leg to stand on in this debate. And her article was truly offensive. The truth is she's a relic from the 60's. Women have a different set of problems in this millennium, and insensitive, thoughtless, privileged white women like her don't help.
triluv 1 year ago
@Tigerlily21 She's also blatantly transmisogynistic... check wikipedia.
valeriereified 6 months ago
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Go Melissa Harris!!! Go get that racist bitch!!!!
Fighting89Back 3 years ago
Sorry but no one on this video is a "racist". You're very misinformed.
Tbozfan07 3 years ago 9
Glora is not racist, did you not hear her talk about Chisolm? Wow, talk about learning your history
superc 2 years ago
Maybe I am wrong but it's my opinion that black and white women have more in common than black women and men, and white women and men.
tulycreme 3 years ago 2
you are wrong.
fletchercathey 3 years ago
i actually believe you're wrong.
but thats just me.
ReallyBigJump 3 years ago
The best line is, "It's not her experience (Hillary Clinton), It's her experience married to, connected to, climbing up on white male patriarchy.
PREACH SISTA!
fletchercathey 3 years ago 2
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Two politically correct nutjobs butting vaginas over the relative importance of their nonsensical pet social issues. Women should have zero say in politics, and neither should any mangina who thinks women should have any say, much less be a leader. I've never met a woman with an intelligent political opinion in my life, as politics require objectivity and women have never evolved the capacity to view the world objectively, as there were never any evolutionary pressures in this direction.
dustcurrington 3 years ago
The 1950's called. They want their society back.
katebushboi 3 years ago 4
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Gloria Steinem=spoiled privileged cunt.
It must pain her so that most black women see themselves as having nothing in common with this lock-jawed jew princess.
seans10 3 years ago
you're actually a total fucking idiot.
just incase you missed that one.
Gloria Steinem is awesome and youre a cunt.
ReallyBigJump 3 years ago
I can tell you must be a Ph.D. in Social Thought by your response
fletchercathey 3 years ago
i'm gonna go ahead and just say fuck you.
cause i REALLY don't care what you think about me or have to say.
i was just putting my opinion out there and if you can't say something nice then shut the hell up about it.
ReallyBigJump 3 years ago
I respect your opinion, try to learn how to express yourself in a more positive manner. Good Luck!
fletchercathey 3 years ago 3
What about Maya Angelou you fucking stupid dog? If you call a woman a cunt, you deserve to be called a worthless stupid dog.
Qrstnce 2 years ago
If Maya Angelou were a white male she'd be Rod McKuen. Hacktastic! You want to read a real poet, check out Wallace Stevens. Now there's a poet!
seans10 2 years ago
What an exciting and sexy woman Amy Goodman is!
seans10 3 years ago 4
The only reason Steinem supported Hillary over Obama is gender, plain and simple. She's not woman enough to admit it. I love the fact the she mentioned the Hillary nutcracker as something pornographic. That's pornographic? It was a joke! This is just another example of a feminist making much ado about nothing.
TheHornyChihuahua 3 years ago
And what was Maya Angelou?
Qrstnce 2 years ago
GO STEINEM!!!!!!!! U rock, and you are a model for girls all around the world!
mojosandra 3 years ago
Love Gloria!
QueerSwede 3 years ago
This is ridiculous. The fact that Gloria Steinem had an abortion in 1955 cannot discredit her opinions about feminism and politics. Why don't you guys listen to the actual debate instead of bitch about what has nothing to do with this?
pwhit0116 3 years ago 3
Melissa = beauty and brains!! Hey Melissa, YOU ROCK GIRL!!
wh0m33 3 years ago
Then, just ignore my comment.
I just want people not to get lost the basics of human world by way of sterility of discussion.
pjbridge 3 years ago
To be a mother is such an awesome privilege from which all genuine authorities emanate. Voluntary departure from such an opportunity is nothing short of insanity. No, rather, it's betrayal against God, against nature, and against humanity.
pjbridge 3 years ago
Excuse me, because someone does not have children they are betrayer agisnt god, nature and humanity? Now is this just for the women or men too? It's pretty disgusting anyone would think of someones choice to not bring a child into this horribly messed up world as betraying humanity.
dollsnatch 3 years ago 4
Excuse me, because someone does not have children they are betrayer agisnt god, nature and humanity? Now is this just for the women or men too? It's pretty disgusting anyone would think of someones choice to not bring a child into this horribly messed up world as betraying humanity.
dollsnatch 3 years ago
I myself don't have a child and that's why I realize how important and blessing to parent children. Sorry, if it hurt you but I still believe what I said.
pjbridge 3 years ago
What does this have to do with the discussion above? What the hell are you going on about? Sorry if you're hurt about not having a child...maybe you should go out and adopt one of the millions of orphaned children out there who need a home instead of preaching about how horrible someone is for exercising their choice to have or not to have a child.
dollsnatch 3 years ago
I do have some children adopted and am not preaching anything. Just think about your mother and see if there is anything antagonistic to what I say.
pjbridge 3 years ago
Again, what does that have to do with the video above? I'm at a loss to see the connection with this piece and your comments.
dollsnatch 3 years ago
i respect your ideas. however, there is 6 billion people in the world, maternity shouldn't be held as high as if it were to save us as a species. in fact, is what is killing this world. the more people there are, the more we destroy nature because of all the things that a new life needs for survival. think about it. you might think abortion is short from insanity, but in reality it could be the last and most reasonable way to control human population, not to mention it could save the world.
ImaSumac4ever 3 years ago
Only 6B. The cold intellect shouldn't be held such highly. In fact, the runaway intellect is what is killing this world. The more such intellect, the more we destroy because of all the things that such intellect severs. Think about it. You are made to think more birth is short from insanity, but in reality, it could be the most reasonable way to save the world. When a family became congested, you shall not apply that cold intellect, for they are meant to unite to be more productive.
pjbridge 3 years ago
no intelect is killing this world. i'm talking scientific research, the world is overpopulated with humans. when a species has exhausted its resources on the area where it lives, then it is said to be overpopulated. we humans have done that everywhere we go. but we manage to keep on reproducing like bunnies without thinking of the repercussions it might trigger on the environment. in fact, overpopulation is one of the main causes of global warming and destruction of natural environment.
ImaSumac4ever 3 years ago
acording to science, people as we know it have existed for about 100,000 years. we just have reached the first billion 200 years ago. we have grown 5 billion this last 200 years. this type of exponential growth is unprecedented. it is said that the earth's capacity is of 12 billion, meaning that all natural resources must be depleted for human consumption. woman empowerment has been succesful in lowering the birth rates of countries such as japan.
ImaSumac4ever 3 years ago
Last time i checked,Japan was in a population crisis with approx. only 1.26 births per mother--hardly enough to sustain a stable population and world leading economy(coupled with the fact that they also have the largest aging population and one of the smallest immigrant populations in the developed world).In the US,'woman empowerment',amongst social advances for women,has also lead to domestic welfare for childbarers.
thirdshift47 3 years ago
yes, those facts are true. japan's population has shrunk, something unprecedented in their nation's history. 50 years ago, there wasn't a "shortage" of people in japan. scientinsts have concluded that the reason why the number of people is going down is that there are more women getting educated and on the labor force. it is in those same 50 years that japan has grown to become a leading economy.
ImaSumac4ever 3 years ago
Even if the world were overpopulated with humans,mankind,by every means of war-terror will find increasingly new creative,sociopathic ways to counter it,as for nature,she is destruction incarnate(just ask the Chinese and Burmese amongst others)inspite of man's contributions to climate change.The real problem is with Americans as world leaders in per capita consumption rates:the average American consumes the equivalent of 32 Kenyans per day,and the rest of the world(understandably)wants in.
thirdshift47 3 years ago
so awesome to see Steinem get her ass handed to her on this one. go Melissa!
itsbenj 3 years ago
Melissa is so offended. anyone, besides me, think that it's a bit out of line?
jjkilk1 3 years ago
1st: I have long admired Steinem's work but I, too, was deeply offended by her NY Times Op-Ed piece. It's offensive for anyone to suggest that one form of oppression is more powerful than another because, as Lacewell states, all oppressions are interlocked. For ex, a middle-class white woman might be oppressed by sexism, but women of color are oppressed by both sexism & racism. Steinem also disregards the US's long & bloody history of black men's oppression by white men & white women when she
knowyourenemy1 3 years ago
2nd: [cont'd]...refers to the recognition of black men's voting whites before "women's" in an attempt to prove her claim that "women" -- as a group -- "are never fore-runners." This statement is offensive for so many reasons -- one of them being that the vast majority of black men *and* women did not vote until the mid-1960s because they lived in the South where the were subject to legalized race segregation (e.g. Jim Crow) & the economic repression & violence that kept it in place.
knowyourenemy1 3 years ago
Yeah they do. This is proven by the fact that cross culturally women are subjugated by men. Thus in any culture to be a man is to be the dominant.
Qrstnce 3 years ago
For years the family was held together by gender roles. What peplexes me is how some liberals seem to have disdain for this precedent despite the fact that the fallout from the sexual revolution has resulted in regression, especially when it comes to the well-being of the family. We have sacrificed cohesion between men and women for so-called " new opportunities".
Donpopeel 3 years ago
3rd: [cont'd]... which means that white women voted at least 40 yrs before any black person accessed the ballot. I am deeply disappointed that Steinem would suggest otherwise. Steinem takes her flawed analysis further when she states that Obama will win the nomination before Clinton -- because he is a black man (!!!) as though black men have equal access to patriachal power as the wealthy white male ruling class -- as though wealthy white men collude to protect black men's interests...
knowyourenemy1 3 years ago
4th: Wealthy white men benefit fr. oppressing black men *and* white women as well as women of color -- Steinem doesn't acknowledge that in her Op-Ed or in the debate with Lacewell. Finally, Steinem refers to "women's oppression" as a universal. She doesn't distinguish btwn women fr. varying class backgrounds, women of color & white women, queer women (etc.,). Again, not all women are oppressed the same way. White women don't have gender privilege but they do have race privilege, which means...
knowyourenemy1 3 years ago
5th: [cont'd]...that white women benefit from racism/the oppression of women of color. Steinem invokes a (fictitious) example of an upper-middle-class black woman's gender subordination to show the way in which Hillary Clinton -- a wealthy white woman -- is disadvantaged by sexism (!!??). Clinton's experience of sexism will differ drastically from that of any woman of color's (regardless of class) b/c of the power & privilege attached to Clinton's whiteness.
knowyourenemy1 3 years ago
@knowyourenemy1 Im sorry but not all white people have power and privilege. That's a sweeping generalization to the point you made before about oppressions being interlocked. You act as if no black families have economic power. Believe me in the neighborhood I come from class has more of an affect on the impoverished white, black, and latina drug addicts. To say class never changes anything when it come to race is entirely misleading. I have wealthy latina friends and poor ones that can attest.
BoysForPele1989 1 year ago
6th: [cont'd] Unfortunately, Steinem's argument is a glaring example of many white feminists' refusal to acknowledge their complicity in women of color's oppression, & thus, their participation in upholding white supremacy. When you, "jjkilk1," suggest that Lacewell should be more polite? more subtle? in challenging Steinem's racism - you fail to empathize with the experiences of the many women of color who have struggled for inclusion in feminist spaces & society in general.
knowyourenemy1 3 years ago
@jjkilk1 I think the offense was just her passions got the best of her, if Steinem made a similar assertion about Chicana feminists I would wholeheartedly agree with her as a chicana feminist, because at the end of the day Steinem is not ranking oppressions. MHL just didnt understand that, I guess.
BoysForPele1989 1 year ago
I loved Gloria's suggestion that George Bush III would have been a used car salesman if he weren't white, male, had a famous father etc. How many people do you know have a C average in college who get to hold the highest position in the nation for 8 years & nearly destroy it in many ways. He clearly was not qualified for the position & his election was not fairly won. I don't see anti-affirmative action proponents jumping up and down about the advantages that "legacies" like George Dubya have.
DivaNLA 3 years ago 3
And why it that at any point that racial minorities is are made to be accountable for their prejudice and its violent results -homophobia, violence against women- the cultural argument is used in order to absolve them of that. However how are the acts of white men against a racial minority different than those of a racial minority towards women and gays? Look at how Coretta Scott King was reproached by her community when she stood up for gay rights. But somehow this kind of prejudice is ok?
Qrstnce 3 years ago
It is interesting to see that while racial minorities get their arms up every chance they get -as Lacewell is doing with Steinem over a racial vendetta-; racial minorities propagate, endorse and further homophobia in large numbers, therefore acting like the white men they hate. For example take rap music. Highly homophobic, and grossly misogynist, again, aside from Eminem there is no large numbers of white men who are sending out this message to impressionable youth by means of art.
Qrstnce 3 years ago
Qrstance: when you 1) condemn people of color for challenging racism where they experience it, 2) stereotype people of color as homophobic, & 3) to villify rap music as misogynist -- you perpetuate a number of different racist (& incorrect) views abt. people of color. People of color are no more or less homophobic than white people (Read Keith Boykin). The white male majority in Congress, for ex, refuse to grant lgbtq people full equality to heterosexuals.
knowyourenemy1 3 years ago
Why are my views racist and yet your want to drive away from the homophobia and mysoginy endorsed and propagated by racial minorties not considered homophobic. You care only about blacks. You don't give a damn about the gays that have been victimized because of racial minorities. And don't give me the argument of white man profit, cuz then you're saying racial minorities don't have enough of a will to break from that oppression. They must continue that prejudice as means of survival?
Qrstnce 3 years ago
[contd] The rap music industry is controlled by white male executives who believe that only the worst (racist) representations of (largely) black men will be consumed by an audience that's 60% white (Read Tim Wise's article on Don Imus). Consequently, there's so much antiracist, antisexist, anticlassist, positive & progressive rap music out there that won't be played on mainstream radio stations. I suggest you educate yourself & challenge your own prejudices by seeking out these rap artists.
knowyourenemy1 3 years ago
Right and the blacks that participate in that industry are forced into it right? Just like men who are now making concious choices in regards to their approach towards women? Your argument is a deflective one. And the ignorance of which you accuse me of the same kind that Lacewell shows when having obviously not paid attention to the fact that the feminist movement always aligned itself to the struggles of the blacks. Stops being so ethnocentric and see past your victimhood.
Qrstnce 3 years ago
I am open to a discussion -- please, cite the sources that support your argument that white feminists have *always* linked their struggle to that of people of color? Give me authors? Name activists? Books? Anything... I study U.S. history... I see no evidence whatsoever in U.S. history for such a broad sweeping claim.
knowyourenemy1 3 years ago
Start with Germaine Greer. Who has been an avid supported of the aborgines of Australia. Then there's Gloria Steinmen herself. There's actually a video here from back in the day and she was already talking about the oppression of blacks. Then move on to Simone de Beauvoir in "The Ethics of Ambiguity" and then Naomi Wolf who has always as Marxist feminists recognized marginalization. It's interesting to note that feminists have also never excluded women, as you are attempting to do, as it MHL.
Qrstnce 3 years ago
2nd: I agree, rap artists of color are not directly *forced* into complicity in perpetuating racism/sexism/homophobia-I don't dispute that. I am simply challenging you to be open to the *possibility* that your view could be more complicated, more sophisticated when you incorporate an understanding of how institutional racism has functioned historically to limit the choices of people of color. For ex, a disproportionate number of transgender people are forced to do sex work b/c...
knowyourenemy1 3 years ago
And those are patriarchal values that are being brought into the gay community. But at one point racial minorities have to start taking responsibilities. Look at the flack that Oprah has gotten because she doesn't endorse the mysoginy og rap artists. Why? So since she's standing up for her womanhood she betrays her race? Then that's a double standard that's been inflicted upon women by black men isn't? And what's more important race of gender? Because to ask for modification is betrayal/racism.
Qrstnce 3 years ago 2
3rd:[cont'd] ...genderism/institutionalized transphobia & heterosexism limit their choices in jobs. The vast majority of transgender people won't be hired for middle & high income jobs as *out* transgenders because of historical, systematic prejudice against them. So would you then blame transgender people who, in the face of horrific discrimination, decide to engage in sex work, for ex, or take a role in a film that promotes negative stereotypes about transwomen & transmen just to survive?
knowyourenemy1 3 years ago
Are you talking about transgendered individuals or hermaphrodites? The transgender issue is more of a choice to alter one's sexuality than a condition that the person was born with. Some people may argue that feeling like you are born with the wrong gender is inherent, but straddling the fence(for lack of a better term) is viewed as more radical than just homosexuality by itself.
Donpopeel 3 years ago
@Donpopeel Let me tell you from personal experience: The 'choice' was between aligning my presentation with my gender identity or losing the will to live. Pretending to be a boy didn't work.
valeriereified 6 months ago
No, I wouldn't. But in school we do indeed learn about slavery whereas where is the gay oriented sexual education curriculm for ALL students not just one set. And yes there are ways in which trangendered inviduals feed into heterosexist and patriarchal and homphobic notions about them. Gay men are also at fault of their detriment when they feed the heterosexual male. But here's a better question for you. As a gay black man who his greater oppressor is. The white man, or the straight black man.
Qrstnce 3 years ago
4th: [cont'd] ...I also find it interesting that you accuse me of ethnocentrism and self-victimization... are you making an assumption about my race? There are plenty of people -- of all races -- that think like me. Some of them identify as white-antiracists... you should check their work out: Tim Wise, Molly Secours, Inga Muscio (her 2nd book), even comic artist Alison Bechdal are great places to start.
knowyourenemy1 3 years ago
And you are accusing me of only being concerned with that which concerns me individually. You dismmised the fact, didn't even take into consideration that I myself am a racial minority. You assumed that I was a white gay, never did it cross your mind that I am a racial minority. One that is treated like shit in America. I am a Latino. But that, that didn't enter your mind. You here are the one that's prejudiced. And maybe you should check that. How dare YOU tell ME what my struggle should be.
Qrstnce 3 years ago
Lacewell is a detriment to the movement because one thing that she seems to be neglecting is that while we have many steps forward when it comes to racial prejudice; all cultures regardless of religion and race are still very much subjugating and desecrating women. And it is not white men, or white women who are cutting off clitorises of little girls in Africa, nor is it white men and white women that are putting burkas on women in fundamentalist Islamic regimes. Racial victimization is passé.
Qrstnce 3 years ago 2
When she discusses the Civil Rights Mvmnt (in part 3), Lacewell is stating that sexism is present in antiracist movements & racism is present in antisexist movements. She *never* says-not once!-that white men are the only creatures on the planet that engage in sexism. You, however, seem preoccupied w/ spotlighting communities of color's participation in oppression that is present in most of the world's various racial communities.
knowyourenemy1 3 years ago
I don't think I denied that that oppression doesn't exist in all cultures. That would be ludicrous to admit. However, there is no significant movement being made by racial minorities to quash the homophobia within their own circles. They are too pre-occupied in their fantasy that the world is still back in the height of lynching. Sorry, but in the world as we speak gays have only begun to scratch the surface of rights that racial minorities have had for a while.
Qrstnce 3 years ago
I don't know because i live in the states,but how is it that Canadian's seem to think that their community realities are directly reflective of those of us here.Because to be fair,although homophobia is indeed a glaring reality,to compare homophobia--a social anxiety--to institutional forms of racism that we still contend with here is just flat out foolish.Gay acceptance in mainstream society is indeed an issue of 'rights';everything from housing to freedom itself are dire concerns for blacks.
thirdshift47 3 years ago
hang on a second. This is indeed the reality for gays world wide. It is a life or death situation. Was it not in the U.S. where recently a boy of 15 was shot because he gave a valentine's day card to another boy? How is this not an issue? I find it very hypocritical to go on about the evils of the white man, when black men are just as ferocious when it comes to the battiman. Is this not the case? But this isn't reserved for black men. What about Eminem? He got awarded for the things he said.
Qrstnce 3 years ago 2
And gays haven't had to shove themselves into closets in order to keep their jobs and lives? And gays have not been killed all over the world because of who they are inherently? And are gays allowed to adopt just as easily as straights? And how do people react when gays move into the neighbourhood? Excluding areas like New York or Los Angeles, what are the living conditions of gays? FEAR.
Qrstnce 3 years ago
I'm not going to get into a greatest victim match with you--Indeed,it takes a special kind of idiot not to be able to make rudimentary distinctions between the social maladies that blacks and gays,respectively,have suffered.
And yes,there is certainly a homophobic strain in the black male community,as there are patriarchal,sexist & even fundamentalist strains.Yet,historically,an epidemic of violent gay bashing has not been a characteristic of the black male community in the US.
thirdshift47 3 years ago
Indeed,you in your strangely 'essentialist'--to borrow the thirdwave feminist term--view of homosexuality,and at the same time,very socially ill-defined ,seems to forget that there is a HUGE black homosexual community(indeed,most blacks in the states know somebody that's gay).Indeed,most homophobia amongst black males is passive--whereas most black on black androphobia(in a REAL epidemic of street violence),if you will,is deadly.
thirdshift47 3 years ago
Lastly,for as much as homosexuality may be a taboo in the black community here in the states(i can't speak on Canada),the Black community has,by and large and uniformly,put its voting power behind those US candidates that are generally openly supportive of gay rights and concerns.Now the 70% white majority here seems to have felt otherwise---placing their 'moral' concerns over their economic concerns,electing that great progressive champion,Bush,for a second term.LOL!!
thirdshift47 3 years ago
Yes. And your point is? So ok, because someone is a racial minority they should not be called on when they act evil? So basically white men should be held accountable for their crimes, but not racial minorities? Well there you go, you just acted as the white man did in terms of his justice. We know white men are evil. I've been hearing this since childhood. So what is the racial minorty male's excuse? They're supposed to be so beyond the West. So forward if it wasn't for the West's tinkering.
Qrstnce 3 years ago 2
When you call "racial victimization passe" you prove that racism is alive & well -- and that you could care less about any form of oppression that doesn't directly impact you.
knowyourenemy1 3 years ago
Don't go there. I'm hispanic and I'm also disabled. And being a person of three minorities in one, there is nothing compared to the homophobia that occurs on a daily basis. In the year 2008 a 15 year old is being shot because they are gay. You are attempting to deflect the oppression carried on by racial minorities in order to maintain victimhood. That victimhood can then be used as it has been as an instrument to excuse oppression on the premise of cultural identity and sensitivity.
Qrstnce 3 years ago
Why does Hallary think it's all about breaking a glass ceiling? It's important, but is that why she's running?
precast12 3 years ago
Another howler from '72, this time from George Guaranteed-Minimum-Income McGovern: "No one has the right to live on inherited wealth". He and Steinem would have made quite a pair!
NDrLoR 3 years ago
Lacewell absolutely shredded this woman.
thirdshift47 4 years ago 3
She "shredded" a woman that fought hard to help her get where she is today. Lacewell is articulate and obviously intelligent, but I thought she could've been more respectful. Even if she began her argument by stating what an honor to debate with such a woman who has done so much for woman's rights.
southerncharma 3 years ago
but that would require her to come down from her high horse of almighty martyrdom and have an actual conversation vs. convolutedly slamming "the enemy" every underhanded chance she gets. she's clearly built a career out of this kind of position taking, why would she stop now? just look at the comments here supportive of her. the truth is she was tactless & showy. anyone who's honest has to admit that.
PersephoneSwimming 3 years ago 3
Ron Paul for president!! please
austinroderique 4 years ago
Gloria Steinem knows nothing about American history. She bends over backwards to defend Senator Clinton and by doing so she skews simplifies history. I had no idea just how out of touch she is till this election. But that's what happens when people bow and scrap at your feet. You lose touch with the realities.
PussycatGoGo 4 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
the Princeton bitch is fuckin trash
todnyc 4 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
It has always been hilarious to me how older left-liberal women are ideologically ugly--they always have the wrinkled neck and scraggly hair. Wonder if they've ever seen the inside of a beauty parlor--they never wear rouge or lipstick. Somewhere there has to be the big, thatched or woven carryall carried in solidarity with some special interest group or other. She should take lessons from Nancy Reagan on how to be a proper lady.
NDrLoR 4 years ago
We'll see how you or your wife look at 74 years old...I'd say Miss S is in pretty good shape--much better than that "just say no" fool Nancy Reagan. Though this video doesn't support her intellectual strength as well as some of her other clips do.
UAclassico 3 years ago
"We'll see how you or your wife look at 74 years old"
74! I see several ladies in church every Sunday in their late 80's, early 90's, dressed to the nines with lovely hair who could pass for 74. My mother (1902-1997), dressed and behaved like a lady 'till the day she died. I always laughed at Steinem's comment at SMU in '72: I'm embarassed because I've never had a venereal disease (STD's today)--now that's serious ideology!
NDrLoR 3 years ago
you are an imbecile
She was using sarcasm to assert that she failed to take full-advantage of relative gains in social-equality in form of sexual liberation afforded by the movement of which she was very much a part.
-- btw, thanks for the STD=VD reference, I don't know how anyone could have deciphered it without the reference (roll eyes)
If you think 90yr olds in lipstick and rouge is what being a lady is all about, why stop there? burka anyone?
UAclassico 3 years ago
"take full-advantage of relative gains in social-equality in form of sexual liberation"
Right! Now 1 in 4 teen-age girls has a venereal disease (er, STD)--we've gone from liberation to proliferation! Wonder how many of the original libbers from the early 70's are living with genital herpes for the rest of their lives now in their 50's and 60's? Real pioneers! Be careful what you wish for...
NDrLoR 3 years ago
The point is that you you took the statement literally. 1/4 of teenage girls with an STD is more due to the logic-free, right-wing, abstinence-pledge idiots(I'm guessing you are one) than it is to the sexual liberation mov't. The 50's are gone (good ridance), ...get over it.
UAclassico 3 years ago
"1/4 of teenage girls with an STD is more due to the logic-free, right-wing, abstinence-pledge idiots(I'm guessing you are one) than it is to the sexual liberation mov't."
Guilty as charged! Hope they enjoy their doctor's appointments.
NDrLoR 3 years ago
Go to WebMD and look up virginity pledges.
..very effective (roll eyes).
One of the findings "STD rates were similar among all participants, regardless of whether they had taken a virginity pledge. " -Bearman and Bruckner
Another finding:
Abstinence pledgers were more likely to engage in anal and less likely to use condoms.
All that money spent on abstinence education takes away from education re: safe sex.
UAclassico 3 years ago
I think Gloria Steinem is beautiful.
southerncharma 3 years ago 3
and i think melissa lacewell is. well at least on bill maher she was, damn
bloodyknuckles87 3 years ago
Maybe retired CIA agent Steinem can use her connections with the govt. spooks to spy on Obama!
jwmellott 4 years ago
The highest and hardest glass ceiling.....did she just steal that from Langston Hughes? Is she trying to say that women are less advantaged than Blacks in the States? Come on Billary! No one told you to sit in the back of the bus.
wethepeople2050 4 years ago 4
hehe I like what Steinem said about George W Bush
dargay 4 years ago
thank god somebody finally checked Gloria Streinem on her b.s.
Geezyone 4 years ago 5
who the hell is mlh? she was hostile, and her comments only served to further divide women who should be working together.
elansage 4 years ago
melissa harris lacewell absolutely killed it in this debate. she was AMAZING!!!
kalane 4 years ago