Atonement makes perfect sence. So does your argument by the way. It is however incorrect because your mistaken in how it works. True Atonement has nothing to do with justice. You dont get punished and then go to heaven. You are unworthy to enter heaven because of your sins. Punishment even served wont give you atonement. Should you atone wile being punished however makes you worthy thus you CAN enter, punishment served or not. Jesus opened the door, we gota walk through, thats that faith anyways
@bushstalker So if we need to be made "worthy" of entering Heaven, why does the process involve blood sacrifice? Why not hopping on the right foot for three days? Or going about in a pirate costume for a full day? Or sticking stuffed toys to the wall?
Why blood and not something equally irrelevant to the things I've done wrong?
@DeistPaladin Hmm, How to put this. The blood is the life. A blood sacrafice is a life sacrafice. Mortals cant wait around to see if someone does indeed sacrafice thier entire life to something. Dying to make a point SUCKS cause yer dead. Soo short cut, you bleed for it, hence blood sacrfice. Extrapolate this to include anything you own, you can sacrafice to show your loyalty, wheat, goat, slave,wife depending on culture. See how messed up this can get? Oh yea, doesnt make you worthy anyways.
@bushstalker How did Jesus open the door for us to enter heaven? I understand that he died on the cross, but I don't see why that allows us into heaven.
@FireproofAshes By his death , his forgiveness of it he (Atoned) for man kinds sins. Thus the doors of heaven were now open for us to enter. They was closed untill then. Must have had a big crowd waiten at the gates ah figure. THAT was the POINT of his sacrafice and the Basis for the modern catholic faith and it's many..many....manymanymanymany... (gawd ders alot and they fight like wussy bitch's) variations... Savy? :)
@FireproofAshes They opened because he forgave them for killing him. Thus the atonement. Seriously to be honest maby Jesus was on one side of the gate and dad was on the other and Jesus said, K will ya open the door now dad? It's cold out here! and thus the gates of heaven opened. Thats the modern catholic faith though, he died and forgave that death ,atoned for our sins thus opened the gates of heaven for us that prove worthy by not being scum. Least your not getting hacked up on a field eh?
@bushstalker You seem to be implying that the gates of heaven were closed because humans killed Jesus, but this doesn't make sense because the gates of heaven had been closed long before Jesus even came to earth, let alone died.
The only other way I can interpret your position is that by forgiving us for killing him, Jesus also forgave us for all of our other sins, but that doesn't make sense either.
@FireproofAshes On the first interpitation , nope not implying that. Your correct the gates were closed long before Jesus came. On the second interpitation, According to the catholic faith. Thats exactly what occured. It may not make sence but thats what they say happened. My position? It is not catholic, it's something else. My intention was to help ya out and clarify why atonement makes sence not justify the jesus story. You seemed to have mistaken atonement for justice, they are different.
@FireproofAshes Well I think that's a fallacious demand. Though I'm not taking it out on you, but merely saying that you've been forced into thinking a certain way -> /watch?v=DDyDtYy2I0M
@faro0485 I don't consider demanding evidence for claims to be fallacious. In fact, I find it a necessary requirement. Without evidence, ALL beliefs are equally valid. If I said that it was just as valid to follow Zeus as it is to follow Allah, the only way you could contradict that statement is with some form of evidence.
If you see a flaw with that reasoning, please point it out. :)
@FireproofAshes A person who was interested in evidence, wouldn't be asking/demanding/insisting another to provide it for them... they'd be seeking it.
Ah the meme of David Hume has infected another poor soul. The flaw in Hume's demands was that scientists and researchers and institutions were pushed away from dealing with the issues of the common people by instilling distrust & suspicion between them.
Atonement makes perfect sence. So does your argument by the way. It is however incorrect because your mistaken in how it works. True Atonement has nothing to do with justice. You dont get punished and then go to heaven. You are unworthy to enter heaven because of your sins. Punishment even served wont give you atonement. Should you atone wile being punished however makes you worthy thus you CAN enter, punishment served or not. Jesus opened the door, we gota walk through, thats that faith anyways
bushstalker 7 months ago
@bushstalker So if we need to be made "worthy" of entering Heaven, why does the process involve blood sacrifice? Why not hopping on the right foot for three days? Or going about in a pirate costume for a full day? Or sticking stuffed toys to the wall?
Why blood and not something equally irrelevant to the things I've done wrong?
DeistPaladin 7 months ago
@DeistPaladin Hmm, How to put this. The blood is the life. A blood sacrafice is a life sacrafice. Mortals cant wait around to see if someone does indeed sacrafice thier entire life to something. Dying to make a point SUCKS cause yer dead. Soo short cut, you bleed for it, hence blood sacrfice. Extrapolate this to include anything you own, you can sacrafice to show your loyalty, wheat, goat, slave,wife depending on culture. See how messed up this can get? Oh yea, doesnt make you worthy anyways.
bushstalker 7 months ago
@bushstalker How did Jesus open the door for us to enter heaven? I understand that he died on the cross, but I don't see why that allows us into heaven.
FireproofAshes 7 months ago
@FireproofAshes By his death , his forgiveness of it he (Atoned) for man kinds sins. Thus the doors of heaven were now open for us to enter. They was closed untill then. Must have had a big crowd waiten at the gates ah figure. THAT was the POINT of his sacrafice and the Basis for the modern catholic faith and it's many..many....manymanymanymany... (gawd ders alot and they fight like wussy bitch's) variations... Savy? :)
bushstalker 7 months ago
@bushstalker I still don't understand... Why did Jesus dying mean the doors opened?
FireproofAshes 7 months ago
@FireproofAshes They opened because he forgave them for killing him. Thus the atonement. Seriously to be honest maby Jesus was on one side of the gate and dad was on the other and Jesus said, K will ya open the door now dad? It's cold out here! and thus the gates of heaven opened. Thats the modern catholic faith though, he died and forgave that death ,atoned for our sins thus opened the gates of heaven for us that prove worthy by not being scum. Least your not getting hacked up on a field eh?
bushstalker 7 months ago
@bushstalker You seem to be implying that the gates of heaven were closed because humans killed Jesus, but this doesn't make sense because the gates of heaven had been closed long before Jesus even came to earth, let alone died.
The only other way I can interpret your position is that by forgiving us for killing him, Jesus also forgave us for all of our other sins, but that doesn't make sense either.
FireproofAshes 7 months ago
@FireproofAshes On the first interpitation , nope not implying that. Your correct the gates were closed long before Jesus came. On the second interpitation, According to the catholic faith. Thats exactly what occured. It may not make sence but thats what they say happened. My position? It is not catholic, it's something else. My intention was to help ya out and clarify why atonement makes sence not justify the jesus story. You seemed to have mistaken atonement for justice, they are different.
bushstalker 7 months ago
/watch?v=UJhPaSXVrKI
faro0485 7 months ago
@faro0485 What does that video have to do with anything?
FireproofAshes 7 months ago
@FireproofAshes The words "clarification" & "found", is in that video. Here's another video: /watch?v=lNj7HQ0J38g
faro0485 7 months ago
@faro0485 I'm sorry, but I don't believe in the existence of ANY gods without good evidence.
FireproofAshes 7 months ago
@FireproofAshes Well I think that's a fallacious demand. Though I'm not taking it out on you, but merely saying that you've been forced into thinking a certain way -> /watch?v=DDyDtYy2I0M
faro0485 7 months ago
@faro0485 I don't consider demanding evidence for claims to be fallacious. In fact, I find it a necessary requirement. Without evidence, ALL beliefs are equally valid. If I said that it was just as valid to follow Zeus as it is to follow Allah, the only way you could contradict that statement is with some form of evidence.
If you see a flaw with that reasoning, please point it out. :)
FireproofAshes 7 months ago 2
@FireproofAshes A person who was interested in evidence, wouldn't be asking/demanding/insisting another to provide it for them... they'd be seeking it.
Ah the meme of David Hume has infected another poor soul. The flaw in Hume's demands was that scientists and researchers and institutions were pushed away from dealing with the issues of the common people by instilling distrust & suspicion between them.
So don't make if statements... please.
faro0485 7 months ago