Britain's Road to Socialism - Communism or Social Democracy?

[ComradeZX]

The CPGB will not be able to build a new working class movement if members show a lack of interest to comrades views and opinions. The CPGB is constantly talking over people in this video and the speaker on the right seems to be more interested in twiddling his thumbs! (literally)

[WeTheC]

Why does CPB support Labour? Forget about relating to Marxist/ Leninist/ Communist ideologies, Labour don’t even support the desperate cries from Trade Unions for their existence support.

What a pathetic fall Labour had, and what sort of leaders it is rearing these days! Current one appears not to know the basics of public speaking. Previous one called his own party a bigot. The one prior to him charges by minute for his words. Does CPB believe these leaders could bring in Socialism to UK?

[ProletarianCPGBML]

@WeTheC Its economic and historical ties. That was the way our movement was corrupted in the 50s onwards. We must reclaim it: see "socil democracy - the enemy within" by harpal brar at cpgb-ml.org

[ProletarianCPGBML]

@perther3 Elections are neither here nor there, in this context, cde. Lenin's Bolsheviks participated in elections, when the revolutionary movement was weak, and boycotted them when it was strong. They never subjected their party or the interests of workers to imperialism or parties who supported imperialism. The NCP totally supports the Labour Party. This is the 'principle' that determines all their action - or lack of it.

[Laughingblades]

What's that song in the beginning?

[ProletarianCPGBML]

@Laughingblades lowkey - relatives

[Laughingblades]

@ProletarianCPGBML tyvm

[Laughingblades]

11:05 that woman is absolutely right. In the United States we have the problem of politicians not chosen by the corporatocracy getting blacklisted by the media though, so there will be none of that here. You know they actually do their best to ignore Ron Paul because they see him as a neo-confederate and neither the corporations nor the government likes that, if it weren't for the internet hardly anyone would know his name. A socialist or a communist can't even get a voice on the news.

[Laughingblades]

Addressing one of the points in the video, it wasn't Market Socialism that went so wrong in the Soviet Union, it was the internal sabotage of Gorbachev and the intentionally orchestrated collapse of the Russian economy by internal and external powers, who's actions and motives are well documented. The fact is Russia's economy was sabotaged.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades Seriously India?? that has more poor than most countries as far as the other countries you have just mentioned they have just instituted their socialist system which I'm sure it will fail. If more government spending was the solution countries like the former Soviet Union would be thriving right now.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 India's economy is one of the fastest growing on the planet now thanks to the new socialist policies and increased education, things have changed greatly in India since the time of my birth, unless hit with an economic disaster the Republic of India's economy will surpass that of the United States within a matter of decades.

The Soviet Union did not fail due to socialism, and if socialism were so bad New Zealand, Norway, and Sweden would be in ruins.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades Capitalism leads to competition and innovation the very idea that it leads to Oligarchy is naive. Socialism leads to poverty, corruption, and loss of personal freedom because if a government has the power to take care of you it also has the power to oppress you. Thomas Jefferson said something like that, and its something to think about.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 Capitalism is Economic Darwinism, it leads to poverty and corruption, in a capitalist society most gain comes at someone else's expense, traditionally for the United States the expense has been to the third world, now it's internalizing. The competition and innovation you speak of is darwinian struggle between business interests which selects for whatever is best for business. Socialism does not lead to poverty, corruption, nor loss of liberty, quite the opposite is true in fact.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 On average socialism liberates the masses from the wage slavery, abuse, and exploitation of private businesses which seek only to further their own ends. In a social democracy it takes that power and gives it to the people, the people own the state and the people decide what the state does. Tyrants come under all economic ideologies, capitalist tyrants force their way on nations through embargo, blockades, and military action. Bombing people into submission isn't freeing them.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades What about state slavery? Have you ever thought that when you apply socialistic policies you are making people slaves to the government. In a free society like the one we have if you don't like your job you can always quit!! I don't want to be burdened by my neighbor's well being that is not my responsibility. I want to live in a nation that rewards hard work not one that stifles it. If capitalism is bad why do people from the dominican republic go to florida instead of cuba?

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 A social democracy isn't state slavery, it's the opposite, in a social democracy the people own the state, and the people decide what the state needs to do. No are free to quit their jobs in a social democracy, and the people vote on what kinds of industries and services the state is to provide. In a social democracy you can work hard your whole life and retire in comfort, in a Capitalist (Economic Social Darwinist) state, you can work your whole life and end up losing your home.

[dialectical44]

@lonewolf031

Next up ladies and gents, lonewolf031 will explain in excruciating detail how 2 +2 =5

[lonewolf031]

@dialectical44 And you paid attention... you get a gold star, Oh wait you want socialism you have to share it with 20 people you don't know.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades Such naivety do you really think that big government is the answer? I guess once you're enslaved by the state then you will realize your folly. What is wrong with rewarding hard work, enterprise, and ingenuity? but you probably think that the hardworking should take care of the drug user, alcohol abuser, and useless people.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 In a social democracy such as Norway, New Zealand, and Sweden people are not enslaved by the state, the people own the state and democratically govern it. There is nothing wrong with hard work, enterprise, and ingenuity and you fill find these in abundance in Norway, people work because work needs doing and it's always nice to have extra, and Norway is the world leader in several fields of research, particularly in fields of agriculture, horticulture, and green energy.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 In a capitalist society your worth is predicated on your ability to produce capital, you can work your entire life barely making it from paycheck to paycheck only to have your home taken from you by the bank and your insurance drop you when you can no longer work to make payments.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 Capitalism leads to Oligarchy by default, it is Economic Darwinism, social darwinism predicated on the ability to produce capital. The current system in the United States is a Corporatocracy, a form of Oligarchy which overthrew your government through lobbying and campaign contributions, your entire government is bought and both parties use social issues as wedge issues while merely paying lip service and serving the same vested interests. The same people own Obama who owned Bush.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades the reason why is because people see the shinning city on the hill in America.. Why so many people flee their country to the prosperity of America? The reason why the Soviet Union failed was because the government spent themselves into a debt that could not be recovered by any means that was known to them, and that was more social spending. You can blame Gorbachev if you want but the truth is that Ronald Reagan bluffed them into bankruptcy.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 lulz

But that "City on a Hill" isn't shining, it's got mansions up against ghettos, trailer parks, and urban squalor where for every job opening there are five people seeking employment, where banks are trapping people in life long debt.

The reason the Soviet Union failed is because it was not a social democracy, it was mismanaged by expansionist warmongers, it was stricken with natural disaster, and it was economically sabotaged, it didn't fail because of any debts or socialism.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades You forget about personal responsibility and a little things like the 401k and the savings plans. Your points a laughable at best, I mean whats the point of being secured by the government if you have no freedom and in the end like in Greece when the government does cuts you're still screwed and you still have no freedom.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 You have more freedom in a social democracy than you do in a capitalist society, and in a capitalist society no matter how responsible you are you can lose everything, hard working responsible Americans are rendered permanently disabled in automobile accidents on a daily basis.

Greece didn't have an economic collapse because of socialism it had an economic collapse because it's income was dependent on other states and it was hit with multiple economic crisis factors at once.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031The prosperity of the United States has not been due to capitalism, it has been due to the exploitation of the third world and the sabotaging of it's competition. The corporations of America used to be housed in America, and they fed on the world, now they are run by multinational world citizens with no loyalty to any nation, and that vicious feeding cycle is turning against the American people. The United States is being defunded, banks and corporations are destroying the nation.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades In car crashes people are required to have insurance in order to cover civil liabilities but of course you knew that right? So do businesses of almost any size so that point is invalid..

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 Yeah cuz car insurance covers life long disability due to accident doesn't it brah? No, in reality you'll be lucky if the private insurance companies that you have to pay outrageous amounts for don't find some way to cut you loose, if your personal injury was even covered in the first place.

Businesses exist to make money not to take care of you, and the capitalist war on regulation allows insurance companies to get away with murder and even invest against the lives of clients.

[Laughingblades]

Communism is a naive utopian dream that has never truly been realized and never can be realized because human nature won't allow it. You can't build a system based on the reason and good will of man, hell I was born a sociopath and if I hadn't stumbled on philosophy and ethics I'd probably be a social predator, communism fails to account for people like me. And capitalism? Capitalism is a world that in which Sociopath's are best adapted to survive and succeed we are Gods in a capitalist society.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades also India who you Idolize uses child labor and minimum wage practices that would make any union idiot's hair turn white. But you knew that right?

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 I'm from India and the child labor was brought by capitalists mostly from America who opened up sweat shops in poorer areas and exploit dalit children, that's one of the many reasons the Republic of India has moved towards social democracy much to the benefit of practically everyone. Under Capitalism India was exploited by foreign powers, much as the United States will be in the future if it continues on it's current path (and with the bail outs, arguably already is).

[dialectical44]

@Laughingblades

Scientific Communism, founded by Marx and Engels is in contrast to utopian socialism. It is based on science and knowledge of laws of historical development. No utopian socialist has ever succeded in attaining a materialist comprehension of history or revealing the inevitable driving force of the future of society. Only a revolution of productive forces, which is inevitable, and the emergence of the proletariat can convert utopian socialism to a science.

[Laughingblades]

@dialectical44 :p Communism is more utopian that socialism IMO, socialism is pragmatic and broad enough to apply to different systems, from state socialism (wherein common ownership, at least in theory, exists through the state) to syndicalism (wherein the workers democratically control the work place themselves).

The Mondragon Cooperative Corporation proves you wrong and implores you to reassess your ridiculous claim.

[buzzhawk]

@Laughingblades "At the end of 2010 it was providing employment for 83,859 people working in 256 companies in four areas of activity: Finance, Industry, Retail and Knowledge."

Hmm, that's a very significant number of workers when it comes to the whole.

These ratios range from 3:1 to 9:1 in different cooperatives and average 5:1. That is, the general manager of an average Mondragon cooperative earns 5 times as much as the theoretical minimum wage paid in his/her cooperative."

[buzzhawk]

@Laughingblades Very egalitarian also.

[buzzhawk]

@Laughingblades You should read Marx's Critique of the Gotha Programme and see what he has to say about lassalleanism.

[dialectical44]

@Laughingblades

Just what in the world are you propogating? Its hard to tell with your scattergun of "facts" and "opinions" And what does Ron Paul have to do with anything?.

Norway and Sweden are not Socialist countries, they are Capitalist. Can you reference the "Socialist reforms" in India that you claim to have taken place? What are you? a Libertarian Capitalist?, a Social Dem????? With "Socialists" like you who needs enemies?

[Laughingblades]

@dialectical44 Personally I prefer a worker cooperative society along the lines of syndicalism with a minimal state government subject to direct democracy that exists to provide basic services (infrastructure, welfare, defense) and legal protections for the general public.

Norway and Sweden have mixed economies and benefit greatly from the socialist aspects of their economies, that they also have state capitalism is incidental. Unfortunately 500 characters doesn't leave much room

[Laughingblades]

Communism is a naive utopian dream that can never be successfully realized because human nature can not allow it. It puts far too much faith in the reason and goodness of men, while millions of people are born sociopaths and psychopaths, and most empaths (normal people) can justify anything to themselves and feel morally righteous while persecuting and exploiting.

[lonewolf031]

socialism and communism is the same thing and that is social slavery.. to name it anything else is wrong. fairness and spreading the wealth around is nothing but a cover for it and it should make every human being hate it and revolt against it.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 None of what you said is true, now go worship at the alter of economic darwinism and cry about taxes while your corporate overlords stamp their boots in your grandparents faces and sell them the lie that it's freedom.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades does the truth hurt or is it that you truly believe that crap that stifles economic growth, leads to mass poverty, and high unemployment. But no worries right the big government will take care of you right after you sign all of your human rights over to them.. My god yet another brain dead drone running around asking for his share of what he did not earn.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 Naw I fucking love the truth, but you're not selling it. Srsly bro? Socialism has done wonders for Norway and the Netherlands. And how has capitalism worked out for you? Enjoy being ruled over by the banks and corporations? Or are you one of those free market economic darwinists who wants to get rid of social security and farmers subsidies and let private companies own your roads and schools and police departments?

You don't even know what socialism kiddo, when done right it works.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades what you mean like destroying jobs right or destroying small businesses? actually I welcome big corporations where I live because that means more jobs, and more happy well fed people but I'm not trying to sell cptalism to you coz you already made up your mind about it. In the end its all about being happy with what you've got but when your system collapses and it will collapse sooner or later due to economic troubles, high inflation, or joblessness. well its your system not mine.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 The big corporations are the number one job killers, they eliminate workers and cut corners, they outsource labor, they automate anything they can (which in a socialism is nothing but a good thing, but in a capitalism eliminates workers) they crush small businesses, and they lobby congress for special privileges.

For every job opening there are five applicants now, capitalism has failed for all the reasons it was predicted to fail decades ago, it self destructs.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades LMAO!! seriously you are not helping your cause big government and its massive regulations are the bane of private sector jobs. If big government spending and socialism is so great then why is are there so many people in socialist countries fleeing, and why aren't those countries wealthy beyond belief if its such a perfect system? Such stupidity is what socialist government wants, a bunch of sheep running around not knowing they are sheep.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 Before the corporations infiltrated the government those regulations (food safty laws, usury laws, laws against exploitative treatment of labor, ect) benefited everyone but the top 2% during the golden age of the United States. It's not socialism that sank your economy, it's corporatism, cronyism, and capitalism.

The corporations and banks started lobbying congressmen with massive campaign contributions to provide loop holes and customize regulations, your government is bought.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades haha..yes there is cronyism in all factors of life but if a corporation does wrong it fails and gets replaced, but if the government does wrong every one suffers. Class warfare is a bunch of crap spread by people wanting political power through blaming the rich when its the rich that create the jobs. When socialism takes over a country all it does is makes every one be at the same level of misery.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 Only in your fantasy world, in the real world if a corporation does wrong it sets up a puppet company for people to give business to until the heat blows over, and that's only if enough people care, which normally they don't, because half of Americans think that the Twilight Saga was a masterpiece and still buy BP Oil under one of it's four US Brand names without even knowing it, and most will take it up the ass and like it from corporations, that EA Games still exists proves that.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades My fantasy world is filled with gorgeous women LMAO!!.. but seriously spoken like a true sheep of the socialist system.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 Enjoy your completely bought government and your capitalist social Darwinism as even social security and farmers subsidies are now on the chopping block and multi-billionaires are given Tax Holidays. Look at the top of any successful business and you're find sociopaths like myself by the way, in a darwinian economic system we sociopaths are more fit to survive, we are the gods of this world.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades you're damn right I will enjoy it.. for I will be free and not tied to some government beurecrat to tell me how to live my life or where to spend my money.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 In a social democracy, the people control the government and by proxy the means of production through democratic processes, the people are free. In a capitalist society, companies and corporations and banks control pretty much everything, what they don't control the government does, and the people themselves have no power, the actual force of power is money and most people will never have enough money to have any legitimate freedom beyond which store to buy at.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades there is no such thing as a social democracy. just look at Greece and their riots it was not because of corporations that those riots happened it was because the government cut their free welfare ride.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 Yep, Greece is a bad example. As much as doing this with trolls is good practice Imma go watch anime now, I hope you got lulz :)

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 And FYI, the highest standard of living in the world is in socialist countries, tyvm.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades those standards must not be very high..

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 Norway's standard of living is far beyond any capitalist country, just as one example.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades or so you say.. from my point of view all that is doing is burdening the next generation with debt. but ok you made your point.. though its not a very good one.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 On the off chance you're serious, that debt would not exist in a social democracy. In a social democracy, the government can pay for itself, it can provide jobs and produce resources to export or sell to industries in the private sector (cheaply) and then the industries can better afford the materials to make goods, which they themselves can sell on the market or export, unemployment would be far lower and the debt would shrink away, without excessive taxation.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades right lets just wave a big government wand and make all the debt disapear.. Side effects include high inflation, joblessness, massive government regulation, loss of freedom, loss of money, Incarceration, and rectal bleeding because the government will bend you over screw you in more ways than one. LMAO!!

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 There is no big government want, there is an actual method that has been tested and proven to work whereby the government can pay for itself and prop up the private sector, the side effects you list are the side effects of a failing capitalist system not a successful social democracy.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades that's a misconception that you have because socialism is bug government and bureaucracy. there is not way to institute all the socialistic programs with out large government spending, taxing, and large government entities.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 The top five countries with the highest standard of living are socialist countries. A socialist government exists to service the needs of the people, often particularly the worker, as it's primary function and reason for being. In a socialist society the government controls a portion of industry, in a mixed economy generally providing resources to the private sector at low prices which props up the economy. The people get to choose what programs to have and what their taxes will be.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 In a successful socialist country, particularly one with a Keynesian mixed economic system, wealth is more evenly distributed and people and afford higher taxes, for them a higher cost of living isn't really higher because it is a symptom of their prosperity, not to mention it provides a safety net.

You could be permanently disabled in an accident tomorrow, imagine if there were no safety net. Your private insurance could probably find some excuse to cut you off, then what?

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 In a successful socialist country, particularly one with a Keynesian mixed economic system, wealth is more evenly distributed and people and afford higher taxes, for them a higher cost of living isn't really higher because it is a symptom of their prosperity, not to mention it provides a safety net.

You could be permanently disabled in an accident tomorrow, imagine if there were no safety net.

[lonewolf031]

@Laughingblades The only thing I have seen in any socialist system is financial failure due to government over spending, and inflation goes through the roof. Yes on paper it's a great model but in practice it has so many short comings and does not take into account human greed, human innovation, corrupt politicians, and massive beurocratic ineptitude.

[Laughingblades]

@lonewolf031 If true you haven't been very observant, because Norway, Sweden, New Zealand, the Republic of India and many other prosperous countries are socialist states. I'm spent my childhood in India and I would have loved to have grown up under the current system, it's empowering a whole class of people who just decades ago were treated as human garbage and now the Republic of India is soon to surpass the the United States economically.

If you see only failure, that is all you choose to see

[lonewolf031]

@lonewolf031 also if you hate corporations so much throw away your pc, car, and pretty much anything that makes modern life possible because it was most likely created by a big bad corporation. More to the point what are you doing here talking to me and not in a hovel some where with out any modern comforts for they are the eppitamy of what you hate the most!!

[magga85]

EXUUUUUUUSE ME! sosialism is NOT communism. thuogh u should know.

[ProletarianCPGBML]

@magga85 Have you watched it? 'BRS' is the title of a program put forward by the CPGB and its modern day descendants. IT's not a communist program, but a social democratic one... THey support the labour party and claim this will liberate workers from capitalism. We differ and teh video is about the history of the communist movement based around this issue. ta.

[Laughingblades]

@magga85 You're right. A lot of communists are under the delusion that socialism leads to their impossible utopia, but a Social Democracy is it's own end.

[kingneddy]

@magga85 have u read marx's communist manifesto?obviously not. baaaaaaaaahhhhhh u sheep! go read it and shut the fuck up u idiot slave. tell me the difference between the two so...

[magga85]

@kingneddy actually, yes i have. let`s take an example: norway is a socialist country, it is supported by the wellfare state (which is made possible by socialism) and obtain one of the highest livingstandards in the world. communism on the other hand is where the states take all the money and spread it evenly to the population, sosialism let the people have money for themselves... idiot

[ProletarianCPGBML]

@magga85 Hmmm...Norway is a capitalist country. THis is not a debatable issue. It's a fact. THe welfare state is not new to capitalism. It was brought in as an antidote to the revolutionary movement in imperialist countries after WW2. It's being taken away agin as the crisis of overproduction bites deeper. Your definition of communism is also incorrect. A little basic education is needed here. Try Engels Anti-Duhring (available on line).

[magga85]

@ProletarianCPGBML tell me how norway is a capitalist country? im really curious.

[naleyan]

@magga85 no its not its a halfway between capitalism & communism

[arru23]

cpgbml supports gadaffi, derives its ideology from stalin and mao, and i read is affiliated with the chinese communist party and the korean workers party(of north korea). Beware the comufascists!

[MarshallJukov]

@arru23

And whats wrong with Gaddafi or Stalin? Facts only, no insults and useless noise. Please please.

[stickitupyapipe]

As a German, it gives me great pleasure to see your shitty little island being invaded by the muslim and black hoards you seem to love so much. You have been sold down the river by your own stupidity, so you have no one to blame but yourselves.

You picked the wrong side to fight with in 1939 and you haven´t learned anything since. In fact your insufferable arrogance has been your greatest downfall since defeating the forces of light. Darkness shall be your reward. LOL. Idiots.

[ButherLi55ett]

There is no doubt the bourgeois superstructure of our society has kept workers voting Labour or for other parties other than communist, and organising independently from unions that sabotage struggles to take another example. Also it is clear many left organisations and parties have recommended workers to vote for 'the lesser evil'. And there is also anti-communist and anti-Marxist propaganda, the reality of state capitalist dictatorships that have existed aren't seen as an alternative either.

[fighterpiolt1992]

i think socailism and western capitalism should live together not fight against each other also i do beileve that the cold war wasnt about freedom it was a pitty excuse for an arms race and arms sales

[ProletarianCPGBML]

@TheDirtyWop. The saddest spectacle is a slave that loves his slavery... and even campaigns for it.

[stickitupyapipe]

@ProletarianCPGBML

"The saddest spectacle is a slave that loves his slavery... and even campaigns for it."

On the contrary. Slaves will always be slaves, it´s their mental makeup. Nothing will ever change that. Communism is their bread and water, because they need enslavement, like a fish needs water, and that is exactly what communism offers them, permanent and life long enslavement.

But, they want to drag free men into their world of enslavement. Fortunately it ain´t never gonna happen.

[kingneddy]

@ProletarianCPGBML yes so true... all left wingers are these type of people.they want no rights only privileges granted by centralized govt. they believe hitler was a right winger.how can the leader of the national socialist party be right wing.these people are the problem ,not corrupt govt.they are steaks on the table by choice & consent.

[DrSpooglemon]

@TheDirtyWop Have you even read the communist manifesto? Do you understand what communism IS. Not what the USSR WAS. What the fundimental principles set out in the communist manifesto ACTUALLY ARE...

[DrSpooglemon]

@TheDirtyWop So speaks the voice of reason...

[david1972ization]

The same is happening her in Australia to with the CPA. Unfortunately the party here has a revisionist leadership who is very much trying to liquadate the CPA into the Greens!

[mrslaughter15]

Hi comrades, Really reaaaalllly good to see a debate between CP's in Britain at last. You might not have agreed but it is really important to see these debates. Im a far lefty in britain and i would join a CP if there was a CP like in france which has a small presence. I really wish all the CP would join together and scrap the BRS and then make a new CP Constitution. Not necessarily pro-stalin or pro-trotsky, just pro marxist planned economics. Anyone else agree? Please add me to discuss more

[COMMUNISTPHILOSOPHY]

social democracy is about retaining capitalist but mitigating it's adverse effects. You might call these people bourgeois reformists, charitists, and do-gooders

[LouisGodena]

The same thing is happening here to the so-called "Communist Party USA." It is now frankly a "liberal" and "social democratic" party, held together only by the presence of Party real estate and funds, which they are inexorably sucking dry. They have eschewed leninism and jettisoned whatever revolutionary doctrine once existed in its creed. One could have done w/out this graphic illustration of the bankruptcy of the American (Western) Left.

[Scientisticsoviet]

USSR attacked in 1945? I think that is a mistake.

[ProletarianCPGBML]

@Scientisticsoviet thanks, should be 1941!

[blackiron60]

Discussions of this calibre need to happen everywhere.