How is prostitution sexual assault if both parties consent to it? Sounds like you have a problem with underage children being forced into prostitution. I agree that's where the crime is and that should never be legal. But if the prostitute is not forced into the profession by anyone, then there is no victim and how do you have a victimless crime?
I don't see how it could be legal to go home and have sex with a complete stranger, putting yourself in danger, here in England there were a series of prostitute murders, in Ipswich, about 6 young women were killed, and then of course there were the jack the ripper murders, prostitutes are killed or abused every day because they're easy prey. , i know everyone's allowed an opinion, but all i can think of is those women's safety . Great video, thanks for posting
You can't see beyond your cynical, pessimistic view of prostitution as it stands, you can't see how it'd improve if legalized. If legalized then it would be safer (mandatory health checks), in a controlled environment (a brothel, opposed to a woman having to go to a strange place), there would be no pimps, women could be independant and work for themselves.
@KomradKlaus It looks like you skipped basic reading and comprehension in school. Increasing the quantity of prostitutes lowers the prices of their services. This causes a greater demand at the lower price. This is basic economics. My sources for the average age of entry for prostitutes have been listed in the comments multiple times.
people still have the same threshold for willingness to pay for a service, the price is lowered below more people's thresholds ,so yes, more people will pay for prostitutes
also, child prostitution is not at all related to adult prostitution and would be more of a niche market, and an easily controlled one if enforcement was stepped up
@KomradKlaus Demand does not remain constant. When the price is lowered there is greater demand. "The law of demand states that, in general, price and quantity demanded in a given market are inversely related. That is, the higher the price of a product, the less of it people would be prepared to buy of it" Stop wasting my time with your ignorance. I have addressed all your points in other discussions. Read the comments.
@jaymeez It is very clear you know nothing about the topic you are discussing with me. You have no facts just your ignorant opinion. Why should anyone listen to a word you have to say?
@jaymeez Here is the difference between you and me. I can find a source for what I say. Your source is your ass. Brothels used to require women to have pimps, and many women still have them: "The involvement of pimps enabled brothel owners to leave discipline to men who wouldn't hesitate to keep their women in line." -The Business of Desire Inside Nevada's legal brothels By Toni Martin
@sabot96 That "fact" you mention is from a article written in the Eastbay express in 2001 (a fuckn decade ago) by a author I've never heard of & fyi just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's a fact. Women die while prostituting on the street corners ~fact~ prostitution will exist whether legal or illegal ~fact~ We get $0 in taxes while it's illegal ~fact~ the other associated crimes you mentioned will exist whether it's legal or illegal ~fact~ You being completely oblivious ~fact~
@jaymeez I want your sources for these facts, so I can do the same bullshit to you. Your "facts" do not provide any good reasons to support prostitution. Women die from prostitution, unchanged by legalization. Prostitution will exist, unchanged by legalization. We get $0 from prostitution, everyone pays sales taxes. You being completely oblivious, you are the one that is offering an argument for prostitution that really can be summed up as "It exists so we have to make it legal".
@sabot96 If that's what you got from what I wrote you truly are mentally ill. How many women were killed while working at a brothel? Now how bout women picked up on a dark corner? My argument is simply that 2 people that want to engage in something with or without money isn't the governments job nor yours to judge or outlaw. If it were legal there would be more tax $ coming in, little to no deaths, little to no street walkers in neighborhoods, it would be regulated & free up police time/money.
@jaymeez From your vast amount of knowledge on this topic tell me how many women were killed while working in brothels and working on street corners in Amsterdam or the USA? I want the sources of these facts. I have every right to judge as a citizen of the United States what is done for economic commerce in my community. Just like the people of Nevada have the right to decide where prostitution is legal in their state.
@sabot96 Bitch, I'm not writing a research paper for a ignorant motherfucker like you. Everything I've written you have countered with lies or flimsy "facts" so even if you had all the data in the world in your face your dumb stubborn ass wouldn't believe it. Your ignorance knows no bounds.
@jaymeez You are the one that claims knowledge and you know nothing. You have no facts. Lets continue with your "Facts". " If it were legal there would be more tax $ coming in" This is a fact and it is greed. "Little to no deaths" The amount of deaths for prostitution actually goes up because you have both the illegal side and legal sides growing. "little to no street walkers in neighborhoods" Germany still has problems with street prostitutes.
@jaymeez "If it were legal there would be more tax $ coming in, little to no deaths, little to no street walkers in neighborhoods, it would be regulated & free up police time/money." This does not mean anything when the facts say that illegal prostitution grows with legalization. "After legalization in Australia, illegal brothels increased 300%, pulling thousands more vulnerable women into prostitution." - What's Wrong with Legalizing Prostitution? By Janice Shaw Crouse
@sabot96 Your quoting random online posts written by people I never heard of? FYI not everything online is fact, you haven't given any Government issued statistics or facts. If illegal brothels popped up after prostitution was legalized then police would have to regulate. Same thing when weed becomes legal. If someone tries to sell it without a permit police need to deal with it. I'm done with leaving you comments and giving your lame video attention; even tho I know thats what you want Bitch
@jaymeez If my facts are wrong. Prove them wrong. Since you have done zero research on this topic. I would be surprised that you would have heard of them. Bitch
Pull your head out of your ass & pay attention because the facts are on my side. We already have legalized prostitution in few markets of this country & what happened? It is a safe secured location where the women pay taxes and can leave anytime they want (ever heard of the bunny ranch) What you want is women on the dark corners of the city where they can be picked up and killed by sum deranged loon. I want what's right for this country unlike you. Your a clown of epic proportions.
@jaymeez You need to stop portraying your opinions as facts. Yes lets take a look at the wildly successful legalization of prostitution in Nevada. A place where the owners required all of the girls to have pimps because they worked harder. Also, can you show me any facts the illegal prostitution went down in the state because of legal prostitution. Your baseless claims have you looking the fool not me. You don't give a fuck about this country if you support prostitution.
You have every right to choose what you do as do I, but difference is I believe in democracy and freedom. So if a lady in my town wants to sell her ass then that is her choice, if I want to smoke marijuana that is my choice, if a gay couple wants to get married that is their choice, if you want to have a opinion on what "other" people do because you feel like being judge & jury then guess what you have the freedom to have your corny dumb ass opinion, but your wrong. Focus on yourself not others
@jaymeez You do not get to sell every product you wish in this country. Deal with it. Women and men can sleep with anyone they want. When you start selling it that steps into the realm of the state and not individual freedom. I do not support the sale of sex in the market place. The facts are on my side and not yours. You want to do what is hurtful to this country and I do not support you.
@jaymeez It does not make any sense to make a job that is inherently dangerous legal. It makes even less sense when you read the reports in my description which show that legalization causes the illegal part of the industry to grow even larger. Legalization is not a solution, but an even larger problem. If you pay for a meal with your girl friend and then you have sex, this is not prostitution. Prostitution is direct payment for sex.
@sabot96 Sorry, but there were reports that showed wmd's in Iraq & they were B.S. & sir so are the reports you have. In Amsterdam it's legal and very safe. Prostitution will continue to be a job weather it's legal or illegal but it would be safer if legalized & we as tax payers would spend less and the freed up police time could go towards the other crimes you mentioned. If your against prostitution then don't be or solicit a prostitute but quit trying to push your values/beliefs on others.
@jaymeez So your saying that my reports are fabricated lies and your personal opinion holds greater weight. You are wrong. In Amsterdam they recently closed half of their "legal" prostitution windows because of the influence of organized crime. Since the amount of illegal prostitution goes up when it is legalized we would have to pay even more to enforce "legal" prostitution. None of your arguments offer a solution, but create larger problems.
@sabot96 Your arguments are so flimsy. If it were legalized prostitutes would be paying taxes (thus making money not costing) & like in Amsterdam they would be forced to take regular health exams. If it stays illegal then we earn nothing in taxes we continue to pay police to enforce & it will be dangerous for everyone involved & just like weed when it's illegal then gangs and other unsavory people get involved because it does have earning potential. It will always be around legal or illegal
@jaymeez My arguments at least have some shred of facts to back them up. Yours are just your personal opinions which do not hold any basis in reality. Now your ridiculous argument is legal prostitution is cool because they will be paying taxes and forced to get health exams. How does forced health exams protect prostitutes? That protect Johns, but does nothing for prostitutes. Let me make this very clear, drugs and prostitution are not the same thing!
@sabot96 It's not my "opinion" it's fact. How many crimes (sex/drug) are committed in Amsterdam vs America? When you decriminalize then less other crimes are associated. Drugs/Prostitution are different products but both have stupid laws attached. People should have the right to choose what they do & not have clowns like you pushing your values/beliefs on others. Just admit your wrong bro, Every argument you have has been countered by me but your too stubborn to admit it. Check Mate!
@jaymeez You have not shared one fact about prostitution with me. Not one fact on the correlation between legalization in Amsterdam and the lowering of crime related to prostitution. I have every right as a member of a democratic society to choose what jobs are allowed to be performed for economic commerce. I admit you are delusional if you think you have won an argument about the facts without offering any of your own.
People clearly are arguing for their ideology when they argue for legalization, or decrim of the johns. Because when faced with horrible assaults on human rights proving all of their mythological beliefs false, they still do mental acrobatics to justify why people should suffer greatly just to make something legal. It's for an ideology. There is no reason to jeopardize people's lives and exploit people for some ideology, or some TINY group of people that "choose" it CHOOSE something else.
Um, no booboo, the percentage of sex workers who choose to be in sex work is not tiny, and I would like to see you demonstrate with hard numbers any proof to the contrary. The claim that the non-forced sex work a "tiny minority" is simply an 'abolitionist' talking point that has been offered up without proof since Kathleen Barry's 1979 book "Female Sexual Slavery". She couldn't back that claim up then, and abolitionists can't back it up now.
And, BTW, the irony of *radical feminists* arguing that other people are "arguing from ideology" is so rich its not even funny. I invite anybody to read even a small sample of leading 'abolitionist' feminist Sheila Jeffreys and her views on everything from cosmetics to heterosexuality. Its quite clear which side molds everything to ideology.
@booboonation For what ideology would that be? "...people should suffer just to make something legal." Let's keep it illegal and keep people suffering, right. And no, you don't get to call this a human rights violation without getting called on your support of obvious propaganda. Pro decrim is not a human rights *violation and you support stealing that from the people who actually support human rights. Do not tell women what they can and cannot choose to do with their own selves.
@booboonation How do you know what your arguing is not an ideal of its own. I see so much hypocrisy in both of your arguments. Men can feel degraded in many occupations. Were are some of you on human rights when a 18 YEAR OLD is forced into the military and forced to comet homicide. I can not think of anything more degrading than to having blood on your hands. Also solders have metals to compare each other. Also we should out law diamonds because of some blood in it industry
Even in a strip club women will degrade themselves more if they feel they are in competition with another dancer that was just on, and acting dirty. A female manager of a strip club on YT said that she personally would tell the women they did not have to do that. What I've found in research is that competition works to degrade the participants.This is a rule of capitalism and this is not just any activity, the personal stakes are high. Prostitutes must cut off part of their psyche to participate
@booboonation Here you are using the word degrading again. See Diwataman's video on this. Please, "Prostitutes must cut off part of their psyche to participate." This is crap. The stigma does all the work in damaging women who are doing no more dissociating than a married woman who feels she has to have sex with her spouse.
@booboo Ok hun. This is the second time in the last couple of days I have seen you try & twist my words & positions to suite your own IDEOLOGY so here it is. 1. Your constant conflation between stripping & prostitution is unsubstantiated & SO typical of the way you antis think. If you are going to constantly try & make that connection then you'd better support it with hard evidence or STFU. 2. That's right, I told her she didn't have to do that because she DIDN'T HAVE TO DO IT! Dumbass.
@booboo pt.2 Someones misimpression of a thing does not define that thing only their lack of understanding of it. For example, I had the MISIMPRESSION that YOU are AGAINST pornography but your taking a pornographic peekture of somebodies DICK and passing it around to your buddies PROVES that I was obviously WRONG, sweet cheeks.
@booboonation So, never got back to any of these criticisms, huh? Guess thats your thing then, ignore any points you are afraid to answer for. Nice job there.
Its always so great to see people argue against legalisation of prostitution, people that really seriously think intelligently. Check my playlist on how legalisation created even more problems in the Netherlands.
@iamcuriousblue 1. The point is that the majority of women and men that start in prostitution are under aged. There are multiple reports that show this.
Citations please? I don't think it has been demonstrated that this is a fact about prostitution at all, and I've already pointed out that the figure you give is based on a false interpretation of one study. )I can dig up that study, BTW, since it is online.)
@iamcuriousblue I can't put URL's in here so you will have to google "The Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children in New York City" They set the average age as 15. M.H. Silbert and A.M. Pines, 1982, "Victimization of street prostitutes, Victimology: An International Journal, 7: 122-133" sets the age at 13. SISTERS SPEAK OUT: THE LIVES AND NEEDS OF PROSTITUTED sets the age at under 18.
Thank you. I will have a look at these papers. However, I will note that these studies seem to be mainly or exclusively about street prostitution. I will say that it does not follow that a call for the total prohibition on brothel and escort prostitution is something that logically follows from pointing to the harsh realities of street prostitutes. Again, I'll have a look at the papers you've cited.
You do realize that these are studies of *underage prostitutes*. In other words, the population they're looking at are 13-17 year old prostitutes, so *of course* the starting age is under 18 in that group. When adult prostitutes are surveyed, an average age that is in the 20s is typical. Taking account of the relative percentage of prostitutes overall that are underage still yields an average age of entry in the early 20s.
@iamcuriousblue For the Sister Speak Out report "The respondents ranged in age from 18 to 59, with a mean age of 31.6 years." You can continue believing in the lies you tell your self, but don't try to pass them off as the truth to me.
I'll note that the study you quote has a disproportionately large number of street prostitutes, who are more likely to be "early starters", and are far more likely to have a number of problems associated with prostitution. This problem is endemic to studies of "prostituted women". You do realize that the majority of sex workers in the developed world are not street workers, right? And that you can't simply extrapolate stats from street workers to them.
In fact, if you read that very study closely, they pretty much admit what I just said, though bury it in the methodology section. On page 11, they note that about 50% of the respondents engage in street prostitution in at least part of their activities, yet page 8 admits only 10-20% of prostitutes are on the street (consistent with the figures I've heard). Page 10 admits the sample may not be representative. That may seem nitpicky to you, but sampling bias like this shifts findings.
And one of the places they can clearly shift the findings of studies is on the question of average age of entry.
I will also note that the statistic most often thrown around about "average age of entry is 13" cites the report "Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children in the U.S, Canada and Mexico", which is a study of *only* underage prostitutes.
@neuroticxboyfriend I have three studies that show that prostitutes by the majority start underaged. You offer nothing but this lame logic and "consistent with the figures I've heard". You hear what you want to hear.
And I think you hear what you want to hear. "Abolitionists" want to crack down on consensual activities between adults. They damn well know there isn't much support for that, so they reframe sex work as being overwhelmingly about the rape of underage children in order to justify this. The only statistical backing for this claim are a few unrepresentative studies, or generalization of studies of exploited children to adult sex workers.
@iamcuriousblue I do not support prostition between adults or children. Prostition is never consensual sex. You offer yet again no reports to back up your claims. Your just wrong.
You fail to explain why adults cannot meaningfully consent to having sex for money. Because you say so? Because people like you can get laws passed saying so? I thought consent was between two people, not between two people and the state.
BTW, you have never answered the question I left on your home page on how you square this extremely paternalistic stance on sexual consent with claims elsewhere that you support some kind of Stirnerite individualism. How do you square that circle?
@iamcuriousblue consensual sex is sex without coercion. Prostition is sex received by using economic force to get it from someone. The state has every right to manage commerce. The constitution says so.
Second guessing sexual consent goes far beyond "managing commerce". You are not just calling for regulation of a commercial activity here, but declaring something to be a sex crime simply because it involves commerce.
I might also add that the Commerce Clause does not allow the government to simply prohibit activity by fiat. Alcohol prohibition took the 18th Amendment, for example. By your logic, this would not have been needed.
@iamcuriousblue I am sorry, but you do not get to continue to make this bogus claim that prostitution is consensual sex. It is sex for money plain and simple "Consensual sex is when both partners are freely and willingly agreeing, or consenting, to whatever sexual activity is occurring."
It is you, sir, who are making a claim without justifying it. I don't know what website you dragged your definition of consensual sex off of, but I fail to see how the exchange of money negates "freely and willingly agreeing to...sexual activity". It is simply the case that the sex worker has made payment of money one of the conditions of consent. I fail to see how that is any different from any number of other conditions someone may or may not place on sexual consent.
@iamcuriousblue I have provided reports and definitions to support my opinions. You have provided nothing but flawed logic and reports that do not match the focus of our discussion. My quote "Consensual sex is when both partners are freely and willingly agreeing, or consenting, to whatever sexual activity is occurring." - Student Health Services Illinois State University
You've provided one definition, from what I see is standard boilerplate language for campus sexual offense policies. One would hope you would be capable of digging a little deeper into the realm of ideas on sexual consent, but in any event, even using that definition, there's nothing about commercial sex that violates that. I've clearly made that argument, you've failed to refute it.
I think you've simply dug yourself into a position you can't defend.
Also, I think you have failed to successfully argue for the inherently non-consensual nature of commercial sex. You repeatedly make assertions to this effect, but fail to justify this argument. You rely on an entirely circular argument ("its not consensual because it isn't"), and the chest-pounding assertion that I "do not get to make this bogus claim".
Well, sorry, yes I can. And I can at least justify my argument.
@iamcuriousblue The problem is you do not understand basic concepts. For example, you do not understand the difference between giving something away and exchanging something for money. You started off with an incorrect statement about the reports I listed and have made false claims throughout our discussion. I don't see how this justifies your argument.
Then you need to justify the idea that exchanging something for money inherently involves coercion. That is not a given, and in fact, I think its a tall order on your part to establish this proposition. And if you do establish it, that would mean there are a hell of a lot more forms of coercion out there than simply prostitution, since by that definition, everybody who works for money is a slave, by definition. One would then wonder why the special opprobrium on prostitution.
@sabot96 1)Quote "you do not understand the difference between giving something away and exchanging something for money." So by your logic any exchange for money is coercion b/c not given freely and we should abolish free market. By your logic trade can't be not consensual. I've read all the comments, you still haven't explained how exchanging sex for money can't be consensual, and why all prostitution is forced prostitution. And yes this is inconsistent with stirnerian egoism.
@Knr911 2) Quote: "Our monetary system is oppressive to everyone. I do not wish to legally use the power of this oppressive system to force people to have sex with others."
Why are you making an exception for sex then?
b/c unless ur a radical syndicalist u have a problem w/ the oppresive monetary system as a coercive force 2 trade anything, including the computer ur using now.
If u have, ur not a stirnerian egoist. Stirnerians are not an-caps, OK, but they're certainly not syndicalists either.
@Knr911 3) Quote: "If you can't understand the obvious differences in consensual sex and prostitution, why would I allow you to debate me on my thoughts on Stirner?"
YOU, Sir, can't understand the difference.
If I make love to a woman who loves me, it is consensual. If I offer a computer to a woman I love, it is consensual. If a woman willingly sells her body to me for money, why is this not consensual? Because she needs money to live? In this case there is no consensual worker anywhere.
@Knr911 You just made my case for me. "If I make love to a woman who loves me, it is consensual." Thank you. You will notice in your description no economic force is used.
@sabot96 Damn, you must be a troll or a creationist. I noticed you weren't the brightest but to use quote-ming like that is laughable. How dishonest are you?
Yes, it is one form of consensual sex.
Consensual sex is when two people agree to have sex. Out of love or desire for money, or anything. Consensual is when there is consent..
@Knr911 "Why are you making an exception for sex?" I am making an exception for sex because non consensual sex is assault. Also, it is not like any other action that a person engages in. It is the very act that continues our species and creates powerful bonds between people. Yet again, you know nothing about what Stirner is saying. He is not communicating any economic or political system. He is communicating pure individualism. There is nothing above my will.
@sabot96 Non consensual sex is assault, yes. Since when a women asking for money is not consensual?
And to assume anything about the knowledge of anyone on a topic out of a couple of comments - here, Stirner - in a totalitarian manner "you know nothing..." pretty much kills your credibility.
I've said in a sooner comment that Stirnerians are not an-caps. I know damn well that he does not talk about economics."Nothing above YOUR will?" LOL begin by working your rhetoric before studying Stirner.
@Knr911 By my logic having sex for money is not consensual sex. It is sexual assault for money. I have been very clear that non consensual sex is assault in my views. My logic has nothing to do with any other type of work. No other type of work is exchanging sex for money. You obviously know nothing about Stirner.
@iamcuriousblue Wow you are just all kinds of wrong today "In the United States, each state has the power to decide whether or not prostitution is legal in that state or part of that state" The 18th Amendment was necessary because the government wanted to ban alcohol manufacture, sale, and transportation of alcohol nation wide. States have the power to limit commerce.
My argument stands. Current laws prohibiting prostitution are not based on the Commerce Clause, and it is not a given that the power to regulate commerce gives the State an automatic veto over any given commercial activity. Secondly, this reasoning is at odds with your earlier argument, which is the idea that prostitution is an inherently non-consensual sexual activity, and therefore a type of rape. The Commerce Clause has no bearing on questions of sexual consent.
@iamcuriousblue Your argument does not stand and you brought up the commerce clause "I might also add that the Commerce Clause does not allow the government to simply prohibit activity by fiat" - iamcuriousblue
No, actually, you brought up the commerce clause, even if you didn't name it as such: "The state has every right to manage commerce. The constitution says so."
My point stands that this is a red herring when it comes to arguments about sexual consent.
But, in any event, your invoking the Commerce Clause is a red herring. I have repeatedly asked how you square a stated philosophy of radical individualism with a ideas about sexual consent that are paternalistic to their very core. I think you haven't answered this because on some level you damn well know there's a contradiction that you can't justify.
"Prostition is sex received by using economic force to get it from someone"
Payment does not automatically equal force. I put the burden on those who make that claim to establish that argument. (And no, the existence of poverty does not automatically establish that point. There are plenty of commercial transactions that do not involve exploitation of a financially weaker party.)
@sabot96 "consensual sex is sex without coercion". Well that can go both ways. Sex can be used to coerce money from people according to your logic. And using your logic if sex work is to be illegal then the laws should be egalitarian and reflect a measured application of the foundation of your beliefs. But you would have us believe that people are forced to take money for sex. Why not just say you think our monetary system is oppressive to women.
@alowlyapprentice Our monetary system is oppressive to everyone. I do not wish to legally use the power of this oppressive system to force people to have sex with others.
@sabot96 But you would have us believe that people are forced to take money for sex. Why not just say you think our monetary system is oppressive to women. You can’t say patriarchy can you? Cuz you know if you applied that logic to anything else there would be no consensual interactions of any kind. Legally money is treated as an abstraction of value. So if I got an apple pie for a good sexual performance it would be wrong?
@alowlyapprentice People are forced to take money for sex. They need money and they have sex to get it. It is called prostitution. I do not support legal prostitution. We are talking about money for sex. I will not spend one second on your straw man examples.
Give me a fucking break, Sabot. First, if somebody is "forced to take money for sex", that's forced prostitution, which is a totally different beast than consensual prostitution. Secondarily, in situations like that, those forced into prostitution rarely get to keep their money, in any event.
Second, there is nothing inherently forceable about trading sex for money, and many people can and do choose to do this of their own volition.
@sabot96 Force... really? You have some issues with that word. You use it selectively. You are talking about "forced" prostitution. But what about when there is no force? Oh yeah, the need for money is the force. With that logic nobody should work at all. We are all forced.
Hardly a straw man. It's called an analogy. One based on value and money as an abstraction of it. It's in all our current laws banning prostitution. Things of monetary value can be considered payment.
@sabot96 4) "People are forced to take money for sex." That is called force prostitution, not prostitution.
"They need money and they have sex to get it."
They need money like everyone else and they look for a job. If they are forced into prostitution, like it exists within mafias taking advantage of illegal immigrants, that's forced prostitution.
Legalizing prostitution stops the mafia from exploiting them because they would have to declare their icome.
@iamcuriousblue If you can't understand the obvious differences in consensual sex and prostitution, why would I allow you to debate me on my thoughts on Stirner?
1. I don't think there is any "obvious" difference here. It seems self-evident to me that if you accept the idea of individual autonomy as meaningful, one of the things a person can decide for themself is whether or not they wish to engage in sex for money.
More generally, prostitution can be either consensual or forced. I don't think anybody other than criminals support the latter. But the existence of forced prostitution does not negate the existence of freely chosen prostitution.
@Knr911 Do you see anywhere in the definition that it says that consensual sex is when two or more people have sex because one needs money and the other one has it. I don't think any real thinking person would make that claim. Sex for money is the farthest thing from consensual sex that I can think of.
@Knr911 I do not except your definition. There is world of difference between sex that is given freely and sex that is given for money. I am not going to allow you to drag me into a discussion about how selling a hat is the same as selling sex. Don't waste my time.
@sabot96 I don't waste your time. You're wasting mine. One hour and you still haven't answered a question that someone already posed you two months ago. To say that you're narrow-minded and dishonest is an understatement. Bye.
@sabot96 And you still haven't answered the question.
Do you see the whole free market society as coercive and do you think that the free market should be criminalized and we should crush the netire capitalist society because a exchange made for money is not consensual?
We ahave asked you this question dozens of times, you never responded. It's getting old.
2) Claiming to support Stirnerian Egoism and supporting this stance on prostitution doesn't even begin to make sense. I'm actually a far less radical individualist than a Stirnerite would be, and even based on simple, basic respect for the idea of individual autonomy find your stance on sexual consent to be complete anathema. Your stance is a paternalistic one that throws individual autonomy in a very personal matter, sexual consent, completely out the window.
@iamcuriousblue It is very clear you do not understand Stirner. You just don't get it. It is in my best interest that other individuals not exchange money for sex. Here is a quick lesson in Stirner: Nothing exists but the individual. Challenge every fixed idea you have and keep the ones that benefit you. Support nothing that does not benefit you as an individual.
I understand Stirner, having read the "Ego and its Own". Basically, its a work that can be used to justify either anarchy or fascism. In your case, it appears to justify the latter. Your will is what matters, fuck everybody else. Fascist philosophers made similar justifications for Mussolini based on Stirner's philosophy.
A more benign individualism would hold to the understanding that because I am free, other agents should be as well. That is where I am coming from.
@iamcuriousblue Ha ha ha. The moment I share what Stirner means you make me out to be a fascist. You are wrong and do not understand what it means to be an individual. As an individual your will is what matters. This is basic stuff. I welcome your definition of what an individual is, but it is not my definition. I will not be sharing mine, because you can't handle it.
And yet you see fit to tell individual sex workers that when they take money for sex, they're not really consenting. (And there are plenty of sex workers who will tell you this.) Apparently the will of those people doesn't matter to you. Sorry, but that sounds more like the "fascist" side of individualism than the libertarian or anarchist one to me.
@iamcuriousblue I do see fit to use the power of unified individuals under the name of the United States Government to limit other individuals from selling their sex for money. It is absolutely logically impossible for an individual to have consenting sex as a prostitute. In every case they were coerced by money to have sex. If you want to stand by and let every destructive force to the ego happen, that is fine. I do not have to.
@sabot96 "It is absolutely logically impossible for an individual to have consenting sex as a prostitute." LOL I know several prostitutes who disagree very much with you on that. Some in Netherlands, (adorable blonde students who love sex, I'm sure you'd appreciate her company), and others some blocks away from where I live.
You are projecting your own perception of how a prostitute thinks / should think / would think and assume your individual perception applies to everyone else. Get real.
@Knr911 Your personal antidotes mean nothing to me. You are the one that is projecting these two peoples experiences to all prostitutes. My point is not that some people like being assaulted for money. My point is assault for money is something that I do not support as a legal job.
@Knr911 It is assault because they are not "freely" giving the sex. They have to be paid to have the sex. They do consent to being coerced by money to have sex. Try this little example with a prostitute. Ask for a sex act and offer them one dollar. Then keep raising the amount by 1 dollar until they "consent". This is a perfect example of economic force in action.
@Knr911 It does settle it. Support for legalized prostitution makes no sense. It is not consensual sex, but economically forced sex. Also, because I think prostitution is assault and is not a good job, I have to field questions on the existence of the entire market place. I don't think so.
@sabot96 The ego and its own. You are the people who misrepresent these thinkers, you are the reason why people think of Nietzsche as a fascist. I, as an individual, do not care why you would shove your moral compass down the throats of other individuals.
@Knr911 You are the person that does not understand what it means to be an individual. I can do whatever the fuck I want. I never mentioned Nietzsche or any other thinkers other than Stirner.
@Knr911 Don't even try that shit with me. You make a reference to Nietzsche because some people think that he was influenced by Stirner. Nietzsche never mentions Stirner, and I never mentioned Nietzsche.
@Knr911 You claim to have read all my posts. I have answered over an over why I don't believe sex for money is consensual. If the sex is based on a requirement that payment is made before or after the sex is performed it can't be consensual because there is economic requirement. Real consensual sex does not have an economic requirement for the sex to happen.
I never said that I wanted to criminalize the whole free market. That is your insane logic.
@sabot96 But why don't you want to criminalize the whole free market? You want to criminalize prostitution on the basis that according to you a trade for money can't be consensual?
Again, we'll talk in circles and you'll say that selling sex is not the same as hats.
Well, it depends.
To force a child to work in a mine is child abuse, to force a child to do sex work is even worse child abuse, on that I agree.
But between consenting adults, no, no difference between hats & sex.
@Knr911 I don't have a problem with forcing an adult to pick an apple through economic force. I do have a problem with forcing a child or an adult to have sex through economic force.
I think this really is the big difference between our ideas. You are ok with the economic force of the market moving people into prostitution. I am not. I do not believe the market is the answer to all our problems and everything should be available in the market place.
@sabot96 So really you dont have a problem forcing something on people, you are just picky about the specifics of the type of activity involved....interesting. Any particular reason for such hypocrisy?
@BobChaos23 So deciding what the economic force of our democratic society is used for is Hypocrisy? I believe it is actually called logical decision making of a citizen.
And three studies, Sabot? So far, one (problematic) one that actually includes adult prostitutes. So far I've seen no admission from you that studies that include only underage prostitutes are not exactly a valid way to determine "average age of entry". Yet such studies are regularly cited by prostitution "abolitionists". Why is this OK?
You might also be interested to read this report that calls out the gross overreporting of juvenile prostitution figures: is(dot)gd/41qUec.
@iamcuriousblue What is the name of this study? I could not find it with the info you provided. You came on here saying that all my studies sampled only younger girls. You were wrong. I have provided you three different studies that sample women at different ages and they show the same thing. For the majority of prostitutes they start under the age of consent.
List these studies again, and I'll give them a thorough read through. I do think the claim that most sex workers start underage to be highly dubious, and found through either biased sampling, or manipulating figures.
The study I mentioned as most often cited by "abolitionists" is "Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children in the U.S, Canada and Mexico" by Estes and Weiner.
For the report I mentioned, google "How Many Juveniles are Involved in Prostitution in the U.S.?"
@iamcuriousblue I read your report you listed. It is about how the extrapolation numbers for reports on juveniles is not accurate. I would have to agree with the report no one knows the true number of child prostitution in America. This still has nothing to do with average age of entry.
@BobChaos23 I welcome your data that shows that Silbert, M. H.,&Pines, A. M, Center for Impact Research, and the John Jay College of Criminal Justice are the Christian right.
2) Second, to call sex that an adult willingly consents to "sexual assault" because the state, the community, whatever, arbitrarily defines it as such is absolutely disgusting. The argument you're making is precisely why so many of us on the other side consider sex work to be a *sexual freedom* issue. If you give the state the right to just march in and redefine willing activity between adults as "sexual assault", what next? BDSM? Same-gender-sex?
@iamcuriousblue sex with a prostitute is never consensual sex. It requires payment. The government regulating what is done for commerce does not mean they suddenly take over your bedroom.
Never consensual because it requires payment? That's a pretty big assertion that you need to defend here. In my estimation, there is clearly consent when a set of parameters (that is, payment) is made. I cannot see where it is the place of the state, the "community", or anybody else to usurp that consent. And contrary to what you say, if prostitution laws were written toward your reasoning, it would create a precedent for arbitrarily declaring a range of sex "non-consensual" by fiat.
Legalizing prostitution will NOT lower prices because Pimsps take away all their money now. They will be able to keep much more proffit and will have protection against abusing pimps. The amount of drug use could also decrease because what they do is more accepted as a valid job and their moral will go up as well.
Child prostitution will become less of a problem because pimps wouldint be able to make profit from them for long anymore.
@tostrong4youYour reasons for legalization are all false. In Australia they had a 300% increase in illegal prostitution after legalization. In Nevada in the legal houses of prostitution the owners of the houses made it a requirement that each girl had to have a pimp because they worked harder. Legalization has no effect on drug use. Child prostitution has not lowered in any country that legalized prostitution. Prices are set by supply and demand in a market.
@tostrong4you pimps??thats not a valid argument, theres nothing good about pimping..i dont know how to explain to you how wrong is what you said a pimp isnt helping so EVEN IF prostitution should be legal PIMPING SHOULD NEVER BE LEGAL, cause when a pimp is involved the prostitute might not agree with sleeping with a person and the pimp would make her do it, so it wouldnt be consent on her part
but its a great joke if thats the case very funny, as long as its a joke i cant tell by lack of tone
I unsub theocrats. Plus your arguments against desteni were ended up being nihilistic. I don't know how one can fail at attacking something as wrong as desteni but you did it.
How is prostitution sexual assault if both parties consent to it? Sounds like you have a problem with underage children being forced into prostitution. I agree that's where the crime is and that should never be legal. But if the prostitute is not forced into the profession by anyone, then there is no victim and how do you have a victimless crime?
13RC101 5 months ago
I don't see how it could be legal to go home and have sex with a complete stranger, putting yourself in danger, here in England there were a series of prostitute murders, in Ipswich, about 6 young women were killed, and then of course there were the jack the ripper murders, prostitutes are killed or abused every day because they're easy prey. , i know everyone's allowed an opinion, but all i can think of is those women's safety . Great video, thanks for posting
MellyEmmyxx 6 months ago
What is this I don't even
Xendinthian 7 months ago
Comment removed
Xendinthian 7 months ago
You can't see beyond your cynical, pessimistic view of prostitution as it stands, you can't see how it'd improve if legalized. If legalized then it would be safer (mandatory health checks), in a controlled environment (a brothel, opposed to a woman having to go to a strange place), there would be no pimps, women could be independant and work for themselves.
Duchova 7 months ago
@Duchova Lets start with your top point. How does mandatory health checks improve a prostitutes safety and make their lives better?
sabot96 7 months ago
@sabot96 AIDS? AIDS! MOTHERFUCKING AIDS.
Adroitism 1 week ago
YOU ARE SMART
knockoutmaniac 10 months ago
you lack a basic understanding of middle-school level economics and supply and demand
increasing availability doe snot increase demand so having more prostitutes available would NOT increase demand
also, cite your statistics for that 12 and 13 year olds
to deal with that issue, we need stronger enforcement and help centers for the kids, maybe even funded by taxes levied on legal brothels
as I have to say far too often: smegma could come up with better arguments than you
KomradKlaus 10 months ago
@KomradKlaus It looks like you skipped basic reading and comprehension in school. Increasing the quantity of prostitutes lowers the prices of their services. This causes a greater demand at the lower price. This is basic economics. My sources for the average age of entry for prostitutes have been listed in the comments multiple times.
sabot96 10 months ago
@sabot96
keeping prostitution illegal does not improve overall working conditions
there will ALWAYS be a segment of the population willing to pay for sex and there will ALWAYS be a segment of the population willing to provide it
keeping it illegal forces prostitutes to turn to pimps instead of police for "protection" and this leads to abusive sexual servitude
legal prostitution would provide protection for them and decrease demand for illegal and underage prostitutes
KomradKlaus 10 months ago
@sabot96
no, the demand remains constant
people still have the same threshold for willingness to pay for a service, the price is lowered below more people's thresholds ,so yes, more people will pay for prostitutes
also, child prostitution is not at all related to adult prostitution and would be more of a niche market, and an easily controlled one if enforcement was stepped up
KomradKlaus 10 months ago
@KomradKlaus Demand does not remain constant. When the price is lowered there is greater demand. "The law of demand states that, in general, price and quantity demanded in a given market are inversely related. That is, the higher the price of a product, the less of it people would be prepared to buy of it" Stop wasting my time with your ignorance. I have addressed all your points in other discussions. Read the comments.
sabot96 10 months ago
@jaymeez It is very clear you know nothing about the topic you are discussing with me. You have no facts just your ignorant opinion. Why should anyone listen to a word you have to say?
sabot96 11 months ago
@sabot96 Damn, I was going to say the exact same thing to you!
jaymeez 11 months ago
@jaymeez Here is the difference between you and me. I can find a source for what I say. Your source is your ass. Brothels used to require women to have pimps, and many women still have them: "The involvement of pimps enabled brothel owners to leave discipline to men who wouldn't hesitate to keep their women in line." -The Business of Desire Inside Nevada's legal brothels By Toni Martin
sabot96 11 months ago
@sabot96 That "fact" you mention is from a article written in the Eastbay express in 2001 (a fuckn decade ago) by a author I've never heard of & fyi just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's a fact. Women die while prostituting on the street corners ~fact~ prostitution will exist whether legal or illegal ~fact~ We get $0 in taxes while it's illegal ~fact~ the other associated crimes you mentioned will exist whether it's legal or illegal ~fact~ You being completely oblivious ~fact~
jaymeez 11 months ago
@jaymeez I want your sources for these facts, so I can do the same bullshit to you. Your "facts" do not provide any good reasons to support prostitution. Women die from prostitution, unchanged by legalization. Prostitution will exist, unchanged by legalization. We get $0 from prostitution, everyone pays sales taxes. You being completely oblivious, you are the one that is offering an argument for prostitution that really can be summed up as "It exists so we have to make it legal".
sabot96 11 months ago
@sabot96 If that's what you got from what I wrote you truly are mentally ill. How many women were killed while working at a brothel? Now how bout women picked up on a dark corner? My argument is simply that 2 people that want to engage in something with or without money isn't the governments job nor yours to judge or outlaw. If it were legal there would be more tax $ coming in, little to no deaths, little to no street walkers in neighborhoods, it would be regulated & free up police time/money.
jaymeez 11 months ago
@jaymeez From your vast amount of knowledge on this topic tell me how many women were killed while working in brothels and working on street corners in Amsterdam or the USA? I want the sources of these facts. I have every right to judge as a citizen of the United States what is done for economic commerce in my community. Just like the people of Nevada have the right to decide where prostitution is legal in their state.
sabot96 11 months ago
@sabot96 Bitch, I'm not writing a research paper for a ignorant motherfucker like you. Everything I've written you have countered with lies or flimsy "facts" so even if you had all the data in the world in your face your dumb stubborn ass wouldn't believe it. Your ignorance knows no bounds.
jaymeez 11 months ago
@jaymeez You are the one that claims knowledge and you know nothing. You have no facts. Lets continue with your "Facts". " If it were legal there would be more tax $ coming in" This is a fact and it is greed. "Little to no deaths" The amount of deaths for prostitution actually goes up because you have both the illegal side and legal sides growing. "little to no street walkers in neighborhoods" Germany still has problems with street prostitutes.
sabot96 11 months ago
@jaymeez "If it were legal there would be more tax $ coming in, little to no deaths, little to no street walkers in neighborhoods, it would be regulated & free up police time/money." This does not mean anything when the facts say that illegal prostitution grows with legalization. "After legalization in Australia, illegal brothels increased 300%, pulling thousands more vulnerable women into prostitution." - What's Wrong with Legalizing Prostitution? By Janice Shaw Crouse
sabot96 11 months ago
@sabot96 Your quoting random online posts written by people I never heard of? FYI not everything online is fact, you haven't given any Government issued statistics or facts. If illegal brothels popped up after prostitution was legalized then police would have to regulate. Same thing when weed becomes legal. If someone tries to sell it without a permit police need to deal with it. I'm done with leaving you comments and giving your lame video attention; even tho I know thats what you want Bitch
jaymeez 11 months ago
@jaymeez If my facts are wrong. Prove them wrong. Since you have done zero research on this topic. I would be surprised that you would have heard of them. Bitch
sabot96 11 months ago
Pull your head out of your ass & pay attention because the facts are on my side. We already have legalized prostitution in few markets of this country & what happened? It is a safe secured location where the women pay taxes and can leave anytime they want (ever heard of the bunny ranch) What you want is women on the dark corners of the city where they can be picked up and killed by sum deranged loon. I want what's right for this country unlike you. Your a clown of epic proportions.
jaymeez 11 months ago 2
@jaymeez You need to stop portraying your opinions as facts. Yes lets take a look at the wildly successful legalization of prostitution in Nevada. A place where the owners required all of the girls to have pimps because they worked harder. Also, can you show me any facts the illegal prostitution went down in the state because of legal prostitution. Your baseless claims have you looking the fool not me. You don't give a fuck about this country if you support prostitution.
sabot96 11 months ago
You have every right to choose what you do as do I, but difference is I believe in democracy and freedom. So if a lady in my town wants to sell her ass then that is her choice, if I want to smoke marijuana that is my choice, if a gay couple wants to get married that is their choice, if you want to have a opinion on what "other" people do because you feel like being judge & jury then guess what you have the freedom to have your corny dumb ass opinion, but your wrong. Focus on yourself not others
jaymeez 11 months ago 2
@jaymeez You do not get to sell every product you wish in this country. Deal with it. Women and men can sleep with anyone they want. When you start selling it that steps into the realm of the state and not individual freedom. I do not support the sale of sex in the market place. The facts are on my side and not yours. You want to do what is hurtful to this country and I do not support you.
sabot96 11 months ago
@jaymeez It does not make any sense to make a job that is inherently dangerous legal. It makes even less sense when you read the reports in my description which show that legalization causes the illegal part of the industry to grow even larger. Legalization is not a solution, but an even larger problem. If you pay for a meal with your girl friend and then you have sex, this is not prostitution. Prostitution is direct payment for sex.
sabot96 11 months ago
@sabot96 Sorry, but there were reports that showed wmd's in Iraq & they were B.S. & sir so are the reports you have. In Amsterdam it's legal and very safe. Prostitution will continue to be a job weather it's legal or illegal but it would be safer if legalized & we as tax payers would spend less and the freed up police time could go towards the other crimes you mentioned. If your against prostitution then don't be or solicit a prostitute but quit trying to push your values/beliefs on others.
jaymeez 11 months ago 2
@jaymeez So your saying that my reports are fabricated lies and your personal opinion holds greater weight. You are wrong. In Amsterdam they recently closed half of their "legal" prostitution windows because of the influence of organized crime. Since the amount of illegal prostitution goes up when it is legalized we would have to pay even more to enforce "legal" prostitution. None of your arguments offer a solution, but create larger problems.
sabot96 11 months ago
@sabot96 Your arguments are so flimsy. If it were legalized prostitutes would be paying taxes (thus making money not costing) & like in Amsterdam they would be forced to take regular health exams. If it stays illegal then we earn nothing in taxes we continue to pay police to enforce & it will be dangerous for everyone involved & just like weed when it's illegal then gangs and other unsavory people get involved because it does have earning potential. It will always be around legal or illegal
jaymeez 11 months ago 2
@jaymeez My arguments at least have some shred of facts to back them up. Yours are just your personal opinions which do not hold any basis in reality. Now your ridiculous argument is legal prostitution is cool because they will be paying taxes and forced to get health exams. How does forced health exams protect prostitutes? That protect Johns, but does nothing for prostitutes. Let me make this very clear, drugs and prostitution are not the same thing!
sabot96 11 months ago
@sabot96 It's not my "opinion" it's fact. How many crimes (sex/drug) are committed in Amsterdam vs America? When you decriminalize then less other crimes are associated. Drugs/Prostitution are different products but both have stupid laws attached. People should have the right to choose what they do & not have clowns like you pushing your values/beliefs on others. Just admit your wrong bro, Every argument you have has been countered by me but your too stubborn to admit it. Check Mate!
jaymeez 11 months ago 2
@jaymeez You have not shared one fact about prostitution with me. Not one fact on the correlation between legalization in Amsterdam and the lowering of crime related to prostitution. I have every right as a member of a democratic society to choose what jobs are allowed to be performed for economic commerce. I admit you are delusional if you think you have won an argument about the facts without offering any of your own.
sabot96 11 months ago
People clearly are arguing for their ideology when they argue for legalization, or decrim of the johns. Because when faced with horrible assaults on human rights proving all of their mythological beliefs false, they still do mental acrobatics to justify why people should suffer greatly just to make something legal. It's for an ideology. There is no reason to jeopardize people's lives and exploit people for some ideology, or some TINY group of people that "choose" it CHOOSE something else.
booboonation 1 year ago
@booboonation
Um, no booboo, the percentage of sex workers who choose to be in sex work is not tiny, and I would like to see you demonstrate with hard numbers any proof to the contrary. The claim that the non-forced sex work a "tiny minority" is simply an 'abolitionist' talking point that has been offered up without proof since Kathleen Barry's 1979 book "Female Sexual Slavery". She couldn't back that claim up then, and abolitionists can't back it up now.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue Booboo isn't really a big fan of "facts" or "evidence"...it's just not her thing.
BobChaos23 1 year ago
@booboonation
And, BTW, the irony of *radical feminists* arguing that other people are "arguing from ideology" is so rich its not even funny. I invite anybody to read even a small sample of leading 'abolitionist' feminist Sheila Jeffreys and her views on everything from cosmetics to heterosexuality. Its quite clear which side molds everything to ideology.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@booboonation For what ideology would that be? "...people should suffer just to make something legal." Let's keep it illegal and keep people suffering, right. And no, you don't get to call this a human rights violation without getting called on your support of obvious propaganda. Pro decrim is not a human rights *violation and you support stealing that from the people who actually support human rights. Do not tell women what they can and cannot choose to do with their own selves.
xxxild 1 year ago
@booboonation How do you know what your arguing is not an ideal of its own. I see so much hypocrisy in both of your arguments. Men can feel degraded in many occupations. Were are some of you on human rights when a 18 YEAR OLD is forced into the military and forced to comet homicide. I can not think of anything more degrading than to having blood on your hands. Also solders have metals to compare each other. Also we should out law diamonds because of some blood in it industry
WEH1123 9 months ago
Even in a strip club women will degrade themselves more if they feel they are in competition with another dancer that was just on, and acting dirty. A female manager of a strip club on YT said that she personally would tell the women they did not have to do that. What I've found in research is that competition works to degrade the participants.This is a rule of capitalism and this is not just any activity, the personal stakes are high. Prostitutes must cut off part of their psyche to participate
booboonation 1 year ago
@booboonation Here you are using the word degrading again. See Diwataman's video on this. Please, "Prostitutes must cut off part of their psyche to participate." This is crap. The stigma does all the work in damaging women who are doing no more dissociating than a married woman who feels she has to have sex with her spouse.
xxxild 1 year ago
@booboo Ok hun. This is the second time in the last couple of days I have seen you try & twist my words & positions to suite your own IDEOLOGY so here it is. 1. Your constant conflation between stripping & prostitution is unsubstantiated & SO typical of the way you antis think. If you are going to constantly try & make that connection then you'd better support it with hard evidence or STFU. 2. That's right, I told her she didn't have to do that because she DIDN'T HAVE TO DO IT! Dumbass.
Divinity33372 1 year ago
@booboo pt.2 Someones misimpression of a thing does not define that thing only their lack of understanding of it. For example, I had the MISIMPRESSION that YOU are AGAINST pornography but your taking a pornographic peekture of somebodies DICK and passing it around to your buddies PROVES that I was obviously WRONG, sweet cheeks.
Divinity33372 1 year ago 2
@Divinity33372 WIN :D Oh, that was the comment of the day. I love you Div <3
Knr911 1 year ago
@booboonation So, never got back to any of these criticisms, huh? Guess thats your thing then, ignore any points you are afraid to answer for. Nice job there.
BobChaos23 1 year ago
Its always so great to see people argue against legalisation of prostitution, people that really seriously think intelligently. Check my playlist on how legalisation created even more problems in the Netherlands.
/user/vasarasx#grid/user/E331A2D93CB59E34
Great video.
vasarasx 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue 1. The point is that the majority of women and men that start in prostitution are under aged. There are multiple reports that show this.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
Citations please? I don't think it has been demonstrated that this is a fact about prostitution at all, and I've already pointed out that the figure you give is based on a false interpretation of one study. )I can dig up that study, BTW, since it is online.)
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue I can't put URL's in here so you will have to google "The Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children in New York City" They set the average age as 15. M.H. Silbert and A.M. Pines, 1982, "Victimization of street prostitutes, Victimology: An International Journal, 7: 122-133" sets the age at 13. SISTERS SPEAK OUT: THE LIVES AND NEEDS OF PROSTITUTED sets the age at under 18.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
Thank you. I will have a look at these papers. However, I will note that these studies seem to be mainly or exclusively about street prostitution. I will say that it does not follow that a call for the total prohibition on brothel and escort prostitution is something that logically follows from pointing to the harsh realities of street prostitutes. Again, I'll have a look at the papers you've cited.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@sabot96
You do realize that these are studies of *underage prostitutes*. In other words, the population they're looking at are 13-17 year old prostitutes, so *of course* the starting age is under 18 in that group. When adult prostitutes are surveyed, an average age that is in the 20s is typical. Taking account of the relative percentage of prostitutes overall that are underage still yields an average age of entry in the early 20s.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue For the Sister Speak Out report "The respondents ranged in age from 18 to 59, with a mean age of 31.6 years." You can continue believing in the lies you tell your self, but don't try to pass them off as the truth to me.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
@sabot96
I'll note that the study you quote has a disproportionately large number of street prostitutes, who are more likely to be "early starters", and are far more likely to have a number of problems associated with prostitution. This problem is endemic to studies of "prostituted women". You do realize that the majority of sex workers in the developed world are not street workers, right? And that you can't simply extrapolate stats from street workers to them.
neuroticxboyfriend 1 year ago
@sabot96
In fact, if you read that very study closely, they pretty much admit what I just said, though bury it in the methodology section. On page 11, they note that about 50% of the respondents engage in street prostitution in at least part of their activities, yet page 8 admits only 10-20% of prostitutes are on the street (consistent with the figures I've heard). Page 10 admits the sample may not be representative. That may seem nitpicky to you, but sampling bias like this shifts findings.
neuroticxboyfriend 1 year ago
@neuroticxboyfriend
"sampling bias like this shifts findings"
And one of the places they can clearly shift the findings of studies is on the question of average age of entry.
I will also note that the statistic most often thrown around about "average age of entry is 13" cites the report "Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children in the U.S, Canada and Mexico", which is a study of *only* underage prostitutes.
neuroticxboyfriend 1 year ago
@neuroticxboyfriend I have three studies that show that prostitutes by the majority start underaged. You offer nothing but this lame logic and "consistent with the figures I've heard". You hear what you want to hear.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
And I think you hear what you want to hear. "Abolitionists" want to crack down on consensual activities between adults. They damn well know there isn't much support for that, so they reframe sex work as being overwhelmingly about the rape of underage children in order to justify this. The only statistical backing for this claim are a few unrepresentative studies, or generalization of studies of exploited children to adult sex workers.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue I do not support prostition between adults or children. Prostition is never consensual sex. You offer yet again no reports to back up your claims. Your just wrong.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
You fail to explain why adults cannot meaningfully consent to having sex for money. Because you say so? Because people like you can get laws passed saying so? I thought consent was between two people, not between two people and the state.
BTW, you have never answered the question I left on your home page on how you square this extremely paternalistic stance on sexual consent with claims elsewhere that you support some kind of Stirnerite individualism. How do you square that circle?
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue consensual sex is sex without coercion. Prostition is sex received by using economic force to get it from someone. The state has every right to manage commerce. The constitution says so.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
Second guessing sexual consent goes far beyond "managing commerce". You are not just calling for regulation of a commercial activity here, but declaring something to be a sex crime simply because it involves commerce.
I might also add that the Commerce Clause does not allow the government to simply prohibit activity by fiat. Alcohol prohibition took the 18th Amendment, for example. By your logic, this would not have been needed.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue I am sorry, but you do not get to continue to make this bogus claim that prostitution is consensual sex. It is sex for money plain and simple "Consensual sex is when both partners are freely and willingly agreeing, or consenting, to whatever sexual activity is occurring."
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
It is you, sir, who are making a claim without justifying it. I don't know what website you dragged your definition of consensual sex off of, but I fail to see how the exchange of money negates "freely and willingly agreeing to...sexual activity". It is simply the case that the sex worker has made payment of money one of the conditions of consent. I fail to see how that is any different from any number of other conditions someone may or may not place on sexual consent.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue I have provided reports and definitions to support my opinions. You have provided nothing but flawed logic and reports that do not match the focus of our discussion. My quote "Consensual sex is when both partners are freely and willingly agreeing, or consenting, to whatever sexual activity is occurring." - Student Health Services Illinois State University
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
You've provided one definition, from what I see is standard boilerplate language for campus sexual offense policies. One would hope you would be capable of digging a little deeper into the realm of ideas on sexual consent, but in any event, even using that definition, there's nothing about commercial sex that violates that. I've clearly made that argument, you've failed to refute it.
I think you've simply dug yourself into a position you can't defend.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@sabot96
Also, I think you have failed to successfully argue for the inherently non-consensual nature of commercial sex. You repeatedly make assertions to this effect, but fail to justify this argument. You rely on an entirely circular argument ("its not consensual because it isn't"), and the chest-pounding assertion that I "do not get to make this bogus claim".
Well, sorry, yes I can. And I can at least justify my argument.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue The problem is you do not understand basic concepts. For example, you do not understand the difference between giving something away and exchanging something for money. You started off with an incorrect statement about the reports I listed and have made false claims throughout our discussion. I don't see how this justifies your argument.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
Then you need to justify the idea that exchanging something for money inherently involves coercion. That is not a given, and in fact, I think its a tall order on your part to establish this proposition. And if you do establish it, that would mean there are a hell of a lot more forms of coercion out there than simply prostitution, since by that definition, everybody who works for money is a slave, by definition. One would then wonder why the special opprobrium on prostitution.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@sabot96 1)Quote "you do not understand the difference between giving something away and exchanging something for money." So by your logic any exchange for money is coercion b/c not given freely and we should abolish free market. By your logic trade can't be not consensual. I've read all the comments, you still haven't explained how exchanging sex for money can't be consensual, and why all prostitution is forced prostitution. And yes this is inconsistent with stirnerian egoism.
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 2) Quote: "Our monetary system is oppressive to everyone. I do not wish to legally use the power of this oppressive system to force people to have sex with others."
Why are you making an exception for sex then?
b/c unless ur a radical syndicalist u have a problem w/ the oppresive monetary system as a coercive force 2 trade anything, including the computer ur using now.
If u have, ur not a stirnerian egoist. Stirnerians are not an-caps, OK, but they're certainly not syndicalists either.
Knr911 1 year ago
Comment removed
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 3) Quote: "If you can't understand the obvious differences in consensual sex and prostitution, why would I allow you to debate me on my thoughts on Stirner?"
YOU, Sir, can't understand the difference.
If I make love to a woman who loves me, it is consensual. If I offer a computer to a woman I love, it is consensual. If a woman willingly sells her body to me for money, why is this not consensual? Because she needs money to live? In this case there is no consensual worker anywhere.
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 You just made my case for me. "If I make love to a woman who loves me, it is consensual." Thank you. You will notice in your description no economic force is used.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96 Damn, you must be a troll or a creationist. I noticed you weren't the brightest but to use quote-ming like that is laughable. How dishonest are you?
Yes, it is one form of consensual sex.
Consensual sex is when two people agree to have sex. Out of love or desire for money, or anything. Consensual is when there is consent..
What is so hard for you to understand?
Consensual = consent.
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 "Why are you making an exception for sex?" I am making an exception for sex because non consensual sex is assault. Also, it is not like any other action that a person engages in. It is the very act that continues our species and creates powerful bonds between people. Yet again, you know nothing about what Stirner is saying. He is not communicating any economic or political system. He is communicating pure individualism. There is nothing above my will.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96 Non consensual sex is assault, yes. Since when a women asking for money is not consensual?
And to assume anything about the knowledge of anyone on a topic out of a couple of comments - here, Stirner - in a totalitarian manner "you know nothing..." pretty much kills your credibility.
I've said in a sooner comment that Stirnerians are not an-caps. I know damn well that he does not talk about economics."Nothing above YOUR will?" LOL begin by working your rhetoric before studying Stirner.
Knr911 1 year ago
@sabot96 Marriage = Rape. Discuss.
BobChaos23 1 year ago
@BobChaos23 Marriage = bad choice
sabot96 1 year ago
@Knr911 By my logic having sex for money is not consensual sex. It is sexual assault for money. I have been very clear that non consensual sex is assault in my views. My logic has nothing to do with any other type of work. No other type of work is exchanging sex for money. You obviously know nothing about Stirner.
sabot96 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue Wow you are just all kinds of wrong today "In the United States, each state has the power to decide whether or not prostitution is legal in that state or part of that state" The 18th Amendment was necessary because the government wanted to ban alcohol manufacture, sale, and transportation of alcohol nation wide. States have the power to limit commerce.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
My argument stands. Current laws prohibiting prostitution are not based on the Commerce Clause, and it is not a given that the power to regulate commerce gives the State an automatic veto over any given commercial activity. Secondly, this reasoning is at odds with your earlier argument, which is the idea that prostitution is an inherently non-consensual sexual activity, and therefore a type of rape. The Commerce Clause has no bearing on questions of sexual consent.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue Your argument does not stand and you brought up the commerce clause "I might also add that the Commerce Clause does not allow the government to simply prohibit activity by fiat" - iamcuriousblue
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
No, actually, you brought up the commerce clause, even if you didn't name it as such: "The state has every right to manage commerce. The constitution says so."
My point stands that this is a red herring when it comes to arguments about sexual consent.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@sabot96
But, in any event, your invoking the Commerce Clause is a red herring. I have repeatedly asked how you square a stated philosophy of radical individualism with a ideas about sexual consent that are paternalistic to their very core. I think you haven't answered this because on some level you damn well know there's a contradiction that you can't justify.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue I have not responded to you about my egoism because I really doubt you would understand it. There is no conflict in my beliefs.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
The fact that there's no consistency in your beliefs calls into question why anybody should listen to you.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@sabot96
"Prostition is sex received by using economic force to get it from someone"
Payment does not automatically equal force. I put the burden on those who make that claim to establish that argument. (And no, the existence of poverty does not automatically establish that point. There are plenty of commercial transactions that do not involve exploitation of a financially weaker party.)
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@sabot96 "consensual sex is sex without coercion". Well that can go both ways. Sex can be used to coerce money from people according to your logic. And using your logic if sex work is to be illegal then the laws should be egalitarian and reflect a measured application of the foundation of your beliefs. But you would have us believe that people are forced to take money for sex. Why not just say you think our monetary system is oppressive to women.
alowlyapprentice 1 year ago
@alowlyapprentice Our monetary system is oppressive to everyone. I do not wish to legally use the power of this oppressive system to force people to have sex with others.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96 But you would have us believe that people are forced to take money for sex. Why not just say you think our monetary system is oppressive to women. You can’t say patriarchy can you? Cuz you know if you applied that logic to anything else there would be no consensual interactions of any kind. Legally money is treated as an abstraction of value. So if I got an apple pie for a good sexual performance it would be wrong?
alowlyapprentice 1 year ago
@alowlyapprentice People are forced to take money for sex. They need money and they have sex to get it. It is called prostitution. I do not support legal prostitution. We are talking about money for sex. I will not spend one second on your straw man examples.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
"People are forced to take money for sex."
Give me a fucking break, Sabot. First, if somebody is "forced to take money for sex", that's forced prostitution, which is a totally different beast than consensual prostitution. Secondarily, in situations like that, those forced into prostitution rarely get to keep their money, in any event.
Second, there is nothing inherently forceable about trading sex for money, and many people can and do choose to do this of their own volition.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@sabot96 Force... really? You have some issues with that word. You use it selectively. You are talking about "forced" prostitution. But what about when there is no force? Oh yeah, the need for money is the force. With that logic nobody should work at all. We are all forced.
Hardly a straw man. It's called an analogy. One based on value and money as an abstraction of it. It's in all our current laws banning prostitution. Things of monetary value can be considered payment.
alowlyapprentice 1 year ago
@sabot96 4) "People are forced to take money for sex." That is called force prostitution, not prostitution.
"They need money and they have sex to get it."
They need money like everyone else and they look for a job. If they are forced into prostitution, like it exists within mafias taking advantage of illegal immigrants, that's forced prostitution.
Legalizing prostitution stops the mafia from exploiting them because they would have to declare their icome.
Knr911 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue If you can't understand the obvious differences in consensual sex and prostitution, why would I allow you to debate me on my thoughts on Stirner?
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
1. I don't think there is any "obvious" difference here. It seems self-evident to me that if you accept the idea of individual autonomy as meaningful, one of the things a person can decide for themself is whether or not they wish to engage in sex for money.
More generally, prostitution can be either consensual or forced. I don't think anybody other than criminals support the latter. But the existence of forced prostitution does not negate the existence of freely chosen prostitution.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue It is clear you do not understand the word consensual sex.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
It's clear that you don't understand the meaning of consent more generally, nor can you begin to defend your stance on it.
I guess ability to come up with a reasonable argument and consistency with other arguments is too much to ask from some people.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@sabot96 "It is clear you do not understand the word consensual sex."
No, it is clear you don't.
Consensual sex is two ore more people consenting to have sex.
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 Do you see anywhere in the definition that it says that consensual sex is when two or more people have sex because one needs money and the other one has it. I don't think any real thinking person would make that claim. Sex for money is the farthest thing from consensual sex that I can think of.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96 Consensual = with consent.
When you consent to give anything or any service wether freely or for something in return, you consent. What part of it don't you understand?
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 I do not except your definition. There is world of difference between sex that is given freely and sex that is given for money. I am not going to allow you to drag me into a discussion about how selling a hat is the same as selling sex. Don't waste my time.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96 I don't waste your time. You're wasting mine. One hour and you still haven't answered a question that someone already posed you two months ago. To say that you're narrow-minded and dishonest is an understatement. Bye.
Knr911 1 year ago
@sabot96 And you still haven't answered the question.
Do you see the whole free market society as coercive and do you think that the free market should be criminalized and we should crush the netire capitalist society because a exchange made for money is not consensual?
We ahave asked you this question dozens of times, you never responded. It's getting old.
Knr911 1 year ago
@sabot96
2) Claiming to support Stirnerian Egoism and supporting this stance on prostitution doesn't even begin to make sense. I'm actually a far less radical individualist than a Stirnerite would be, and even based on simple, basic respect for the idea of individual autonomy find your stance on sexual consent to be complete anathema. Your stance is a paternalistic one that throws individual autonomy in a very personal matter, sexual consent, completely out the window.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue It is very clear you do not understand Stirner. You just don't get it. It is in my best interest that other individuals not exchange money for sex. Here is a quick lesson in Stirner: Nothing exists but the individual. Challenge every fixed idea you have and keep the ones that benefit you. Support nothing that does not benefit you as an individual.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
I understand Stirner, having read the "Ego and its Own". Basically, its a work that can be used to justify either anarchy or fascism. In your case, it appears to justify the latter. Your will is what matters, fuck everybody else. Fascist philosophers made similar justifications for Mussolini based on Stirner's philosophy.
A more benign individualism would hold to the understanding that because I am free, other agents should be as well. That is where I am coming from.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue Ha ha ha. The moment I share what Stirner means you make me out to be a fascist. You are wrong and do not understand what it means to be an individual. As an individual your will is what matters. This is basic stuff. I welcome your definition of what an individual is, but it is not my definition. I will not be sharing mine, because you can't handle it.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
And yet you see fit to tell individual sex workers that when they take money for sex, they're not really consenting. (And there are plenty of sex workers who will tell you this.) Apparently the will of those people doesn't matter to you. Sorry, but that sounds more like the "fascist" side of individualism than the libertarian or anarchist one to me.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue I do see fit to use the power of unified individuals under the name of the United States Government to limit other individuals from selling their sex for money. It is absolutely logically impossible for an individual to have consenting sex as a prostitute. In every case they were coerced by money to have sex. If you want to stand by and let every destructive force to the ego happen, that is fine. I do not have to.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96 "It is absolutely logically impossible for an individual to have consenting sex as a prostitute." LOL I know several prostitutes who disagree very much with you on that. Some in Netherlands, (adorable blonde students who love sex, I'm sure you'd appreciate her company), and others some blocks away from where I live.
You are projecting your own perception of how a prostitute thinks / should think / would think and assume your individual perception applies to everyone else. Get real.
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 Your personal antidotes mean nothing to me. You are the one that is projecting these two peoples experiences to all prostitutes. My point is not that some people like being assaulted for money. My point is assault for money is something that I do not support as a legal job.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96 How is this an assault if the person consents to do this? This goes against the very definition of an assault.
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 It is assault because they are not "freely" giving the sex. They have to be paid to have the sex. They do consent to being coerced by money to have sex. Try this little example with a prostitute. Ask for a sex act and offer them one dollar. Then keep raising the amount by 1 dollar until they "consent". This is a perfect example of economic force in action.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96 Knr911: "consensual = with consent".
sabot96: "I don't except (accept?) your definition".
Ok, that settles it I guess.
This is the evil of economic force in action?
OK so well, so we must criminalize them, throw them all in jail, persecute, humiliate and shame them?
And you till haven't answered the question about the whole free market (10th time)/
You don't listen.
Bye. For good.
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 It does settle it. Support for legalized prostitution makes no sense. It is not consensual sex, but economically forced sex. Also, because I think prostitution is assault and is not a good job, I have to field questions on the existence of the entire market place. I don't think so.
Bye
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96 The ego and its own. You are the people who misrepresent these thinkers, you are the reason why people think of Nietzsche as a fascist. I, as an individual, do not care why you would shove your moral compass down the throats of other individuals.
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 You are the person that does not understand what it means to be an individual. I can do whatever the fuck I want. I never mentioned Nietzsche or any other thinkers other than Stirner.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96 Of course you can do what you want. You just have to back up your claims if u want to be taken seriously.
Concerning my statement, if you don't understand why I mentioned Nietzsche when you only mentioned Stirner then... Oops for you.
Unless you can explain me
- why two persons consenting to have sex for money is not consensual (more than 'because I say so')
- or why wouldn't you want to criminalize the whole free market because any trade is non-consensual
Buh-bye now.
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 Don't even try that shit with me. You make a reference to Nietzsche because some people think that he was influenced by Stirner. Nietzsche never mentions Stirner, and I never mentioned Nietzsche.
sabot96 1 year ago
@Knr911 You claim to have read all my posts. I have answered over an over why I don't believe sex for money is consensual. If the sex is based on a requirement that payment is made before or after the sex is performed it can't be consensual because there is economic requirement. Real consensual sex does not have an economic requirement for the sex to happen.
I never said that I wanted to criminalize the whole free market. That is your insane logic.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96 But why don't you want to criminalize the whole free market? You want to criminalize prostitution on the basis that according to you a trade for money can't be consensual?
Again, we'll talk in circles and you'll say that selling sex is not the same as hats.
Well, it depends.
To force a child to work in a mine is child abuse, to force a child to do sex work is even worse child abuse, on that I agree.
But between consenting adults, no, no difference between hats & sex.
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 I don't have a problem with forcing an adult to pick an apple through economic force. I do have a problem with forcing a child or an adult to have sex through economic force.
I think this really is the big difference between our ideas. You are ok with the economic force of the market moving people into prostitution. I am not. I do not believe the market is the answer to all our problems and everything should be available in the market place.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96 So really you dont have a problem forcing something on people, you are just picky about the specifics of the type of activity involved....interesting. Any particular reason for such hypocrisy?
BobChaos23 1 year ago
@BobChaos23 So deciding what the economic force of our democratic society is used for is Hypocrisy? I believe it is actually called logical decision making of a citizen.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
And three studies, Sabot? So far, one (problematic) one that actually includes adult prostitutes. So far I've seen no admission from you that studies that include only underage prostitutes are not exactly a valid way to determine "average age of entry". Yet such studies are regularly cited by prostitution "abolitionists". Why is this OK?
You might also be interested to read this report that calls out the gross overreporting of juvenile prostitution figures: is(dot)gd/41qUec.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue What is the name of this study? I could not find it with the info you provided. You came on here saying that all my studies sampled only younger girls. You were wrong. I have provided you three different studies that sample women at different ages and they show the same thing. For the majority of prostitutes they start under the age of consent.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
List these studies again, and I'll give them a thorough read through. I do think the claim that most sex workers start underage to be highly dubious, and found through either biased sampling, or manipulating figures.
The study I mentioned as most often cited by "abolitionists" is "Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children in the U.S, Canada and Mexico" by Estes and Weiner.
For the report I mentioned, google "How Many Juveniles are Involved in Prostitution in the U.S.?"
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue I read your report you listed. It is about how the extrapolation numbers for reports on juveniles is not accurate. I would have to agree with the report no one knows the true number of child prostitution in America. This still has nothing to do with average age of entry.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96 All produced by the christian right.....slam dunk? LOL
BobChaos23 1 year ago
@BobChaos23 I welcome your data that shows that Silbert, M. H.,&Pines, A. M, Center for Impact Research, and the John Jay College of Criminal Justice are the Christian right.
sabot96 1 year ago
2) Second, to call sex that an adult willingly consents to "sexual assault" because the state, the community, whatever, arbitrarily defines it as such is absolutely disgusting. The argument you're making is precisely why so many of us on the other side consider sex work to be a *sexual freedom* issue. If you give the state the right to just march in and redefine willing activity between adults as "sexual assault", what next? BDSM? Same-gender-sex?
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue sex with a prostitute is never consensual sex. It requires payment. The government regulating what is done for commerce does not mean they suddenly take over your bedroom.
sabot96 1 year ago
@sabot96
Never consensual because it requires payment? That's a pretty big assertion that you need to defend here. In my estimation, there is clearly consent when a set of parameters (that is, payment) is made. I cannot see where it is the place of the state, the "community", or anybody else to usurp that consent. And contrary to what you say, if prostitution laws were written toward your reasoning, it would create a precedent for arbitrarily declaring a range of sex "non-consensual" by fiat.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@sabot96 "sex with a prostitute is never consensual sex. It requires payment."
Buying anything is never consensual then, it requires payment.
And if a woman consents to have sex for money, what will you tell her? I'd really want you to anwswer that question. What will you tell her?
I've looked up the definition of "consensual" in my dictionary and it pretty much means with consent. Nowhere it talks about money.
Knr911 1 year ago
I dissagree
Prostitution should be legalized.
Legalizing prostitution will NOT lower prices because Pimsps take away all their money now. They will be able to keep much more proffit and will have protection against abusing pimps. The amount of drug use could also decrease because what they do is more accepted as a valid job and their moral will go up as well.
Child prostitution will become less of a problem because pimps wouldint be able to make profit from them for long anymore.
tostrong4you 1 year ago
@tostrong4youYour reasons for legalization are all false. In Australia they had a 300% increase in illegal prostitution after legalization. In Nevada in the legal houses of prostitution the owners of the houses made it a requirement that each girl had to have a pimp because they worked harder. Legalization has no effect on drug use. Child prostitution has not lowered in any country that legalized prostitution. Prices are set by supply and demand in a market.
sabot96 1 year ago
@tostrong4you pimps??thats not a valid argument, theres nothing good about pimping..i dont know how to explain to you how wrong is what you said a pimp isnt helping so EVEN IF prostitution should be legal PIMPING SHOULD NEVER BE LEGAL, cause when a pimp is involved the prostitute might not agree with sleeping with a person and the pimp would make her do it, so it wouldnt be consent on her part
but its a great joke if thats the case very funny, as long as its a joke i cant tell by lack of tone
solky1s 1 year ago
@solky1s What? Please re-read it, because I am completely against pimps.
tostrong4you 1 year ago
I unsub theocrats. Plus your arguments against desteni were ended up being nihilistic. I don't know how one can fail at attacking something as wrong as desteni but you did it.
greenghost2008 1 year ago
@greenghost2008 I welcome your video response that does a better job.
sabot96 1 year ago