Lots of bullshit talked about Michael Jordan. Is he the best player ever? I think he is. Did he single handedly win all those championships by his will and desire? No, of course not. I think Charles proved this when he talked about Jordan dropping 63 on the 86 Celtics during the playoffs. Jordan dropped 63 but he lost the game and the series by a landslide. Firstly Jordan could score from day one but the Bad Boys taught him team play through the Jordan rules. Secondly he got a team in the 90's.
@Flipper79able Jordan rules were nothing but bullies if you watched the game you saw how they made it look like football out there, that was unfair, anyone who could punch a player in the throat on the way to the hoop and get away with it is someone not worth mentioning. If anything Jordan rules took away to championships from the legacy we all no and love.
@straty899 But with that said I've watch him pull several playoff games out after Rodman got in foul trouble & got technicals & had to ride the bench most of the gm. A lot gms Rodman would only get like 7 to 9rebs & was inaffective & even w/Pip being out w/the back injury MJ still lead em 2victory. Thats the incredible thing.
@straty899 Of course ur statement is correct but no1 said he never had a great interior defender or rebounder. Ever nba team has a rebound leader. Whats incredible is he never had a true dominant big man which is true. Horace Grant played 4 Orlando but Shaq & Penny didnt win even 1 title & Rodman had never 3peated nor did he think he ever would.
@TheRebuiltOne1980 So? I could say that the Celtics had no dominant big man because he wasn't an amazing post player or shooter. What about the Pistons of 04 i beleive? or Magic with the againg Kareem? Rodman and Grant were very good big men, theres no reason to excuse that fact. And MJ can't win without Pippen as noted from his 1-11 playoff record without him. Yeah Rodman only got 7-9 rebounds some games... in about 25 min of playing time. Kukoc took over in those games.
@LuneeyTunezJerk Yeah Kareem is definitely a legit contender as the greatest player ever if you also include his achievements in high school and college but Michael Jordan is in my opinion the greatest professional player ever. If you compare him with all the alltime greats, you will find that in the play-off and finals Jordan elevated his level beyond them. Russell was a defensive genius, but he wasn't a great offensive player and he had a team stacked with future HOF. Wilt wilted in play-offs.
@bolder2009 Wilt didn't Wilt lol. If you are using Russell's HOF excuse for his lack of greatness then you can't use it to deny Wilt's. Its simple logic. Also Wilt didn't realy downgrade his playing, and in fact his 2 championships are proof of that. Also Jordan had more HOF playing with him than any team he faced in the finals, as opposed to Wilt having less than Russell's. Wilt didn't Wilt. Jordan is great, Russell is great, and so is WIlt.
@straty899 Wilt was great ONLY in the regular season. HOW did wilt lose the 69 finals with his team mate Jerry West averaging 37.9 ppg? And losing to Bill Russell on literally his last legs in the NBA. Please explain. Why did his scoring drop from 30.1 ppg in the regular season to 22.5 ppg in the playoffs?? When the good teams were left, Chamberlain wilted. That's the pattern of his whole career.
@starty899 wow you definitely didn't see Michael Jordan play. His defense was unbelievably phenomenal along with his offensive game don't compare today's players to him it was a totally different game. Dont bother commenting back I'm not responding to some little teenager who's favorite team is the heat and you think learns the best... Homo.
@ChicagoMane1993 Well Merry Christmas to you! I never said his defense was bad in his early career, but it wasnt amazing in the end. Im not a teenager nor is my favorite team the heat. I have no favorite team now as I preferred to go into situations unbiased. By the way thank you for acknowledging my humanity with the calling me of a Homosapian (thats why you capitalized the "H", right?) Thanks for the comment though, and thanks for NOT looking at some reasons I provided!
@ChicagoMane1993 BTW, I have never brought up the issues of any modern players to him! Please I am up for a good debate with anyone but when tensions run high its never fun for anyone. You can look through the comments with the debate I have been having with Sully and Blackadams for some real reasons I have provided for saying Jordan isn't the goat. Have a good day and a Merry Christmas (or Sol Invictus lol)
@sammyjoe789 russell played in a weak era where he was literally one of the only 7 footers in the league. He and Chamberlin were pretty much it. 20 rebounds sounds great, but when you are taller than everyone by 5 inches, its not quite as special. Russell was great, but he was also a little overrated. Top Ten all-time for sure, but not anywhere near MJ's class (which no one is)
@ak231510 Oh wow not true. The average height and weight was roughly the same in the 60s as it was in the 90s. Russell is 6'10, Wilt 7'1 (without shoes on as players nowadays are measured, ie Jordan was 6'4 not 6'6.) Russell played in the greatest era of basketball, playing against HOF centers every other game (undiluted league of 8-10 teams.) The Celtics alone had 8 HOF playing one season. Imagine if Jordan had to play against teams of Barkley, Stockton, Rodman, Pippen, "Dream", etc.
@straty899 exactly, you named russell and chamberlin, now name the other dominant 7 footers in that era? Oh that's right, there were none. And you obviously forget that when jordan played the HOF stacked 86 Celtics, he dropped 63 points on them as a second year player who had yet to develop with jumper like we know it now.As for the russell era, Petit was only 6-9, as was willis reed. Calling those guys centers is like calling larry bird a center
@ak231510 Here are some listed heights in Wilt's time. Walt Bellamy 6’11”, Willis Reed 6’11 Walter Dukes 7’0, Daryl Imhoff 6’10, Mel Counts 7’0, Joe Strawder 6’10, and Svede Halbrook 7’3 in a non watered down 9 team league. These were real heights not exaggerated like today where players are measured in shoes. Dwight Howard for instance is 6’9″ not 6’11 as NBA draft express (right online) points out. Ben Wallace is between 6’6″ and 6’7″ not 6’9.” HAKEEM was 6’10″ and Ewing 6’9″ not 7′.
@straty899 really? You think dwight howard is only 6-9? Dont be stupid, that is not even close. And I have stood right next to MJ before, and he is taller than me and I'm 6-5 so there goes that theory of yours. There are a lot of people are get a few inches, but howard and jordan are not one of them. Rodman and Barkley on the other hand are much shorter than they are listed.
@ak231510 Also, Chamberlain scored 100 points in his second year, averaging 50 points that season. As irrelevant as that fact is to any argument (as was the Jordan statistic, I needed to do it for the laugh.) Do your research, please.
@straty899 again, chamberlin played in a league with no other dominant 7 footers expect russell. The 100 points he scored is impressive, but it was on a bunch of no bodies who couldn't check his size. Plus the fact that I'm sure you know the rules were much different back then. No 3 seconds in the lane, Chamberlin could plant himself there all he wanted, and no offensive goal tending either. And read up on what actually happened in that game. All the fouling by the warriors to get the ball back
@ak231510 The 3 second lane was in place at the time lol, are you just trolling? Im pretty sure you are, and dont forget he was averaging 50 points at the time, I am reading Wilt's 100 point game book right now and dont worry I realize that in the last few minutes of the game teammates passed him the ball to get his 100. However there WAS a 3 second lane so obviously you haven't researched your basketball.
@straty899 ur right, i meant the 24 second clock. the 3 second violation was in place, but it was not called nearly like it is today, plus the fact that when it was first invented the lane was half the size it is today so players could still get very close without being in the lane.
@ak231510 24 second clock was in too, and the lane was widened because of the one and only WILT CHAMBERLAIN. Chamberlain was so dominant rules had to be changed to stop him, Jordan was never a threat to basketball and actually had rule changes ie hand check rules, shorter 3 pt lane, etc given out because of players like him. Did you look up the link i told you too about height? I have done great research on this field and i had the same uninformed opinion like you until i took time to research
@straty899 jordan played in the era of hand checking, which is why the 90s were a much tougher defensive era than today, and he also won titles after the 3 point line was backed up too, so neither of those point matter. And I told you I agree players are listed taller than they are, but I also confirmed that jordan is taller than 6-5, that is a guarantee. And whether howard is 7 foot or not, chamberlin never had to go against people as physically gifted as shaq or howard
@ak231510 Chamberlain had to go against people MORE athletically gifted than Shaq and Howard before times of modern medicine, shoe technology, etc. Look up some of Russell's and Chamberlain's athletic acheivements. These men were much more fit than the likes of Shaq and Howard. Chamberlain was stronger, quicker, better shooter, than Shaq and had the highest max vertical in nba history. Also in 94-95 Hand-checking was eliminated from the end line in the backcourt to the opposite foul line.
@straty899 Really? You do know they called him the stilt for a reason? He was skinny. 275 is what he was listed at, but he looks a lot thinner than that. Lebron James is 250, you really think Chamerlin would be able to hold his ground against Shaq's 340 coming at him? People in Shaq' era couldn't handle him, I doubt that Wilt with the frame of today's small forwards would be able to check shaq. And Howard is a freak of nature with his physicality, his shoulders are bigger than Wilt's head.
@ak231510 Do you know that chamberlain could bench press OVER 460 lbs, could dead lift 500 lbs? And he couldn't handle a 340 center (full of fat)? Yeah right. Shaq who can only bench press 425 lbs couldn't handle the stronger, more athletic Chamberlain. You are basing your info on opinions, not facts. Please research him, PLEASE! I beg you! Chamberlain was called the "Stilt" because he was tall! Please look up my stats and quit basing your opinion without research. PLEASE!
@ak231510 plus he was over 300 lbs near the end of his career, with a 4% body fat. Thats just incredible. And may i mention that Wilt averaged over 45 minutes a game in his career, over 48 minutes per game in a season, compared to Shaq who never averaged more than 40.0 minutes per game. PLEASE RESEARCH! Im trying to help lol.
@ak231510 Sorry the figures for shaq are around 450 lbs bench and Wilt usually around 460 lbs, 500 lbs max (in his college days and towards the end of his career)
@straty899 Great, that means Wilt would win in a bench press contest, I'm talking brute force, have shaq back you down and just destroy you as he lowers the shoulder and throws it down. Shaq made a lot of big strong centers look like rag dolls in his day. Which is all irrelevant, the overriding point here is that jordan was better and the 80s/90s were the greatest eras of the nba. Today is very weak with no defense and a lack of overall fundamentals, but Wilt played with a bunch of scrubs
@straty899 Great, that means Wilt would win in a bench press contest, I'm talking brute force, have shaq back you down and just destroy you as he lowers the shoulder and throws it down. Shaq made a lot of big strong centers look like rag dolls in his day. Which is all irrelevant, the overriding point here is that jordan was better and the 80s/90s were the greatest eras of the nba. Today is very weak with no defense and a lack of overall fundamentals, but Wilt played with a bunch of scrubs
@straty899 Great, that means Wilt would win in a bench press contest, I'm talking brute force, have shaq back you down and just destroy you as he lowers the shoulder and throws it down. Shaq made a lot of big strong centers look like rag dolls in his day. Which is all irrelevant, the overriding point here is that jordan was better and the 80s/90s were the greatest eras of the nba. Today is very weak with no defense and a lack of overall fundamentals, but Wilt played with a bunch of scrubs
@ak231510 Bench pressing is brute force ya dumbass! Are you just a troll or a fanboy? Have you even looked up some information regarding the eras or the sites I have suggested? Wilt played in the toughest era of basketball and still dominated. Shaq made rag dolls of weak centers of his day! I seriously doubt you have any intelligence when you say that shaq would have more brute force when he is slower, weaker, less agile, less skillfull, and less of a jumper than wilt.
@ak231510 By the way the 80/90s were a weaker era consisting of up to 32 teams (weak expansion league teams with terrible players.) The 60s had 8-10 teams which means CONCENTRATION of talent rather than DILUTION of talent. (Are these too big of words for you?) Jordan is removed from the equation in the 94-95 season and his team drops 2 wins and loses in game 7 on a controversial call while you remove Wilt, Russell, or Oscar Robertson and the teams lose 12+ more and blow in the playoffs
@straty899 That argument is completely predicated on the players talent level back then being what it was today. People also say that about Babe Ruth, but if you look at the pitchers he was facing, it wasn't exactly like he was going up against 95mph fastballs and bullpen specialists every night. Players back then were just not as fast, strong, athletic and skilled as they are now. And I know Wilt bench pressing, i got it. The predominantly white NBA of the 50s was clearly the same as it is now.
@ak231510 Except Wilt played in the 60's/70s. I dont understand how you can use the strength argument when players in the 90s (and today) were pampered with their private planes, personal trainers, diet plans, the shoes, etc. you will realize that the MINUTE difference in strength in speed is nothing because if you removed these benefits Barkley, Shaq would be too fat to play (both struggled with their weight.) Meanwhile the 60s players were almost as strong, quick etc. without these helpings
@straty899 the 80s/90s had more bad teams, but who cares once you get in the playoffs? could any 60s team have beaten the pistons that jordan went up against? could any 60s team have beaten the 86 celtics that jordan lost to? or the stockton/malone jazz? no, and if you honestly say that the 60s teams could have beaten any of the good 80s/90s teams you are out of your mind...just by saying that wilt, russell, or oscar were worth 12+ wins to their teams proves that the league wasnt as good or deep
@Sully12BB You lose Bird, Magic the teams lose 10+ more too so I guess the 80's/90s arent deep either. See you guys just dont put much research in this stuff. The 67 Knicks could have beaten the 86 Celtics, the Pistons, etc. Im not out of my mind either, if you do the research its not even fair. The condensed leagues of the 60s meant deep talent all around so its not a fair comparison. 11 HOF on the Celtics. If you say the 90s allstar teams could beat the 60s I MIGHT see that as valid.
@Sully12BB Sorry I meant the '67 76ers lol. The point is great players in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s are all worth wins to their teams while Jordan is the only top notch player not to be worth more than 2 wins for his team. I think the best player is the one who helps his teammates become better players, not the one who betters himself. The 60's Celtics could have easily beaten the competition in the 90s. Its as simple as who wins... a team with 3 HOF players vs 7-11 HOF players.
@straty899 All i'll say is this: if you can name me a group of 5 players from any team in the 60s that had players to cover jordan/pippen, or bird/parish/mchale, or magic/kareem, i'll agree with you, but honestly, i've looked, and those teams dont exist, because those three combinations i just listed are the best ever, no contest, and there is no team from the unathletic 60s that could match up with those teams, it just didn't work that way back then
@Sully12BB I respectfully disagree. 72' lakers had Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich. These 4 could beat any Jordan team respectivelly. In fact look at this site, the 95-96 Bulls are listed 10th. nba.com/history/toptenteams_index.html. I honestly dont think you understand how the 60s basketball was played because you have never seen it, and its understandable. But the 60s had the combination of the most rough, quickest, and toughest defenses.
@Sully12BB The 60s were not unathelic lol. What do you think happened in the 60s to the 90s? Evolution? It doesn't work that fast, boy. The main difference is the shoe technology, modern medicine, and modern workout programs. Plus the addition of personal trainers, personal jets etc. Even without those any 60s duo could rival that matchup. Chamberlain/Robertson could beat Magic/Kareem. In fact Chamberlain won his championship in 72 beating Kareem with defense.
@straty899 Also...shoe technology? Michael Jordan could jump because of shoe technology? You've got to be kidding me. He could do the things he could do because he was more athletically gifted than the people who played in the 60s, and the reason is that, for lack of a better phrase, the 60s players were mostly white, unathletic shooters or passers. It's got nothing to do with modern advances, and almost everyone who played in the NBA says Jordan is the best anyway so...I don't see your argument
@Sully12BB Im not kidding you, obviously you have never studied the game of basketball. Mostly white, unathletic shooters and passers? WTF? 1. racism 2. the NBA wasnt all white, that was the 50s 3. athleticism has nothing to do with passing or shooting lololol. Its practice, which im sure that the 60s players obviously couldnt do because people in the 60s were all 5'5 white midgets doing set shots from low post. The 60s was the rougher, had tougher D, and was quicker than the 90s.
@Sully12BB Are you joking? Almost everyone who played NBA said Jordan was the best? Settle down slugger, obviously you have never expanded your research outside of 90s players and possibly the 00s players. I dont see your argument little boy haha. Do your research first, I can link you to some great sites.
@Sully12BB Athleticism - The old guys were playing with canvas shoes on hard courts, with no weight training, no nutritionists, three games in three days, flying coach, doubling up in motel rooms, etc. Put a pair of Air Jordan's on Connie Hawkins, get him decent food, provide him with solid coaching, let him lift some weights, and then let's see Rudy Gay try to deal with him. Hell, let's see Lebron try to deal with him.
@Sully12BB Also Jordan was playing in a watered down league of 30-32 teams as compared to the 8-10 teams of Chamberlain's era. If you add 2 liters of water to whiskey, the drink is more diluted, just as the talent level was in Jordan's era. Wilt played HOF centers every other night while Jordan would play maybe 10-20 games against HOF guards (and in later years, he wouldnt even play D against the better guards)
@Sully12BB google shoe technology of nba, the nba has even banned some shoes because they give too much of a competitive advantage. Cmon google some stuff instead of just making bad assumptions like most uneducated nba fans do! I realize reading a few books about 60s basketball might be boring but it could enlighten you on what the game was actually like!
@straty899 This is all I need to know to tell me that the league wasn't better or deeper: the Celtics won 8 titles in a row and 11 in 13 years. That means that there was one dominant team, which happened to have a lot of great players. Bill Russell went 2 seasons without winning a title, one where he was injured. How does that show a deep league? That's a top heavy league. It's not possible to have that kind of success these days. Also, shoes aren't a huge deal in jumping. They just arent.
@Sully12BB 11 HOF on one team at one point, usually around 7. They also have arguably the best player of all time! Who wouldnt win a title then? Even playing against the most athletically gifted center of all time with 3 HOF players they still won! Its called concentration of talent! But even then many greats werent on the Celtics. Elgin Baylor, Chamberlain, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Nate Thurmond, Lenny Wilkens,Bob Pettit, Jerry Lucas, Bill Cunningham (all in top 50 players list)
@Sully12BB Shoes can provide 1/2 inch in jumping, can let you grip the floor better, letter you recover quicker off a jump, some can provide better speed. Cmon! You just dont know what you are talking about!
@straty899 If you think that 1/2 an inch of extra jumping and a little better grip is what made Michael and Magic and Larry so amazing, there's something wrong with you. Michael could have dunked and been just as explosive with 1/2 an inch less. I'm not saying that the shoes weren't more advanced in the 80s and 90s, I'm saying that they didn't make much of a difference, and most NBA players will say that Michael was the best, so what do you know that those guys don't? They played, you didn't.
@Sully12BB I never said that was what made, it was extra icing on the proverbial cake. I provided other figures too but you are the one that dwelled on this fact. The shoes were more advanced, provided a minute difference, but there were other factors. But this NBA players saying MJ the greatest is a really stupid argument. There are plenty of players that have said Wilt that have said Wilt is the greatest. They played and said he is the greatest! Kareem said Bill Russell is the greatest!
@straty899 Russell was the greatest winner, no doubt about it. Michael was the greatest all around basketball player. Stick him on any team in Russell's era, and Michael's team will win every single year just like Russell's teams did. Stick Russell on any team in the 80s and they win, just not every year. Jordan is #1, Russell is definitely #2.
@Sully12BB Enough. All you are doing is providing your own opinion but there is no stats behind it. You are in love with Jordan, cool. I dont enjoy debating with people who have close-minded opinions even if they cant put facts behind it. I like debating with blackadams because at least he is making an effort to back his opinion. You are just throwing out your own undeducated opinion. Why would Russell not win less? How is Jordan the most dominating? Actually read my content, please.
@straty899 I said before, Russell was in the league 13 years. He was injured for one of those years, and failed to win a championship in another. In the other 11 seasons his team won the championship, at one point winning 8 straight. That's what I said. I'm not in love with Jordan, I just think he's the best basketball player to ever live and I think (well actually I know) that I'm in the majority there.
@Sully12BB Ok but the majority isnt always right. Can you list your criteria as to why he is the best? You seem a little foolish because you cant back your stats but I am guessing you are a young kid so thats excusable. Provide me some key reasons why you think Jordan is the best, as MANY as possible. One thing I love is debating basketball and I love helping people even if they have a different opinion. Provide some key stats, criterions for what makes a GOAT, NOT OPINIONS.
@Sully12BB Like my criteria for the greatest player is the following: Makes his teammates better, is an excellent defender and rebounder (both are key to winning), can put up any offensive numbers his coaches ask of him, and finally can shut down any player on his opposing ends. The reason why MJ isnt the best for me is because he doesnt make his teammates better, later in his career his defense was not great, and he never gave up the scoring title when asked by his coach to do so.
@straty899 before i answer, when did jordan's coach ask him to give up the scoring title? Here's my criteria: must be dominant on both ends of the court, must keep up his level of play deep into his career, must be the best player at his position during his era (beyond question), and must win championships, because the whole point of the sport is to win. Jordan was on 9 nba all defense teams, won 5 mvp awards, won defensive player of the year, had i believe 10 scoring titles
@Sully12BB Jordan didnt deserve his last 3 defensive player of the year titles. he certainly deserved his defensive player of the year in the 80s and he deserved his early 90s accolades but after... no. -airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/defense.htm- look up this site. Also I beleive it was 92 when Jackson asked Jordan to give up the scoring title. Of course it didnt happen.
@Sully12BB I personally think championships have no belonging in the GOAT criteria as championships are a team effort. Earlier I showed how Jordan had better teammates than his competition. (Look at my earlier posts to the other guy here.) I really respect that you are throwing out some stats though, now I can see where you are getting your ideas from, and I respect that.
@straty899 won his 6th championship in his 14th season well into his 30s, won 6 titles, and was, without a doubt, the best player at his position at the time, without question. Wilt and Russell were close to one another, you could argue that one was better than the other. There was never a player who beat jordan in the finals, there was never a player who consistently outplayed him or came close. And most basketball analysts will say that he was the greatest to ever play.
@Sully12BB true Jordan was a dominant finals player, and beyond question the best 2 guard in the 90s (and probably all of basketball) but Jordan wasnt consinstently keeping his level of play into the end of his career (defensively at least) because Ron Harper was guarding the quicker (and usually better) guards because Jordan couldnt keep up later on.
@straty899 Even though the majority isn't always right, the people who played the game MOSTLY say that Jordan was the greatest, and his stats can't be equaled, other than by russell who won 11 rings, but wasn't as dominant a player. Russell is number 2 to me, mainly because of his rebounding, defense, and championships, but his offense wasn't dominant enough to make him the best ever.
@Sully12BB His stats werent equaled they were beaten. And most players did not say Jordan was the best, only the ones that ESPN got interview (ie it wasnt around back in the 60s.) Jordan ppg: 30.1 Chamberlain: 30.1 Jordan rpg: 6.2 Wilt: 22.9 Jordan shooting %: .497 Wilt: .540 Jordan season records: 4 Chamberlain: 72... obviously Jordan didnt have the best stats
@Sully12BB "For Michael, I once made a plea to him that we're going to have a team-oriented offense, and you're probably going to have to give up your scoring championship," Jackson recalled. Read about Jordan's spats with Phil Jackson. Read about how he put down Tex Winter and the triangle! Even his own teammate Horace Grant said that Jordan cared more about his points than the team.
@straty899 The problem with Wilt is he had exactly 1 decent player to play against and that's Russell. Jordan had plenty of solid contemporaries, like Drexler for example, that he absolutely dominated. Wilt never dominated Russell, and Wilt was well known for NOT being a team player, he always played for his numbers, shown by the fact that there were games where he had 50 and 60+ shot attempts. Jordan may have wanted to score, but he never did that.
@Sully12BB Oh my god back to uneducated opinions. Lets start off with only 1 decent player: Yeah... no. 17 players in the 50 greatest players of all times list played in the 60s (a few more that started in 69.) So that myth is dismantled. He played against HOF centers every other night as compared to Jordan who only matched up against a HOF maybe 3-5 times a year.
@straty899 Which hall of fame centers? Check the numbers as to who actually WON the games between Russell and Wilt? Look at the video on youtube as to how Russell played Wilt. Russell didn't care about numbers, he just wanted to win the game. The year he led the league in assists? Read Bill Simmons, he'll tell you all you need to know about that year. And field goal attempts, I said Wilt had games of 50 or 60, not career averages, Jordan was better late career, that's why the numbers are skewed.
@Sully12BB WOW! Winning is a team accomplishment! Tell me who is the better Power Forward - Rodman or Malone? Russell didn't care about numbers because he couldn't stop Wilt. But the fact that you used Bill Simmons as a source shows your lack of basketball knowledge. Read this... billsimmonsbogusbook.blogspot.com/
@Sully12BB "If [the referee] is calling [the game] loose then everyone gets away with more. So, you have to handle your own man accordingly, unless it's Wilt Chamberlain. Him, you just don't handle. He's too strong. The best you can do is make him work hard."
-- Bill Russell, Go up For Glory p.100.
Bill Russell frequently said he could not stop Wilt but only put up speed bumps on his way. The fact of the matter is Wilt was the only one who had competition, NOT Jordan.
@Sully12BB billsimmonsbogusbook. blogspot . com Read that site, the fact that you bring up Bill Simmons shows your complete lack of understanding the game. The man wasn't much more than a cheerleader for his certain side. Bill Russell didnt "care" about numbers with Wilt because he couldnt compete. Look up any interview lol. Im going to tell you for the last time... winning is a TEAM effort, not and individual one.
@Sully12BB Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Bob Pettit, Dolph Schayes, Elvin Hayes, Jerry Lucas, Willis Reed, Dave Cowens, Billy Cunningham, Wes Unseld, Nate Thurmond, Spencer Haywood, Walt Bellamy, Bob Lanier... and he would guard the HOF centers too, unlike Jordan in his late career, if he played against a quick guard, Harper would take that man.
@Sully12BB Jordan was NOT better late career, he may have still been the selfish ballwhore he was back in the day, but his defense was weak. I doubt you read the article I linked you about his overrated late career defense, so you might never learn.
@straty899 jordan had always been a dominant defender you don't know what you're talking about. he thrived off his defense i guess you forget about the steal he had against new jersey in the first round to take the win in the end and of course the steal he had on malone to win the title.
@moneyman237952 certainly in his early years he was a dominant defender, but in his later years he was NOT a dominant defender, but still a good one... and guess what! I didn't forget about either of those steals! However two steals dont define a dominant defender! Jordan was not a good team defender, in fact in his first retirement the Bulls defensive rating went up (thats with a CBA player to fill his spot.) You, my friend, dont know what you are talking about.
@straty899 jordan is like 3rd all time in steals he always shut his oponents down. The Bulls were a better defensive team with jordan. His help defense was better than anybody elses in the league and he was constantly all team defense even in his later years. He just had to do so mujch offensively he took time to rest on d but still was the best.
@moneyman237952 What about Pooh Richardson, Damon Staudemire (rookie), Magic Johnson? Jordan never "shut down" the harder to guard opponents. His help defense was bad shown by the Bulls having better defensive ratings without Jordan when they did with Jordan (these are stats, not opinions.) Plus steals were only kept til after the 72 season AND Jordan got blown many times on failed steal attempts so that isn't hugely impressive to me.
@straty899 Jordan stood apart because he was able to elevate his game more than any player in history, and was able to win multiple championships without an allstar Center.
@NBAGOATS Yeah I get the part where he "elevated" his game... kinda... but the championships without an allstar center argument is pure BS. A center is needed for defense/rebounding (the two most important elements in a championship team) and the first 3 championships he had Horace Grant who did both well and had some good offense to add to it and on the last 3peat he had Rodman who not only was the best rebounder in the game, but also the best interior defender.
@straty899 i'm sorry but the fact that you said Rodman was the best rebounder of the time makes me think you really don't know basketball. Without comparison Charles barkley was a better rebounder than Dennis, so was Hakeem, Larry Johnson, the list goes on and on. To karl Malone Rodman was inneffective so was every other big man Jordan had, which is why Jordan went apeshit just to get the game in a situation where it took a shot to win.
@goinham25 You don't know basketball then. 7 straight rebounding titles over those men, along with the highest rebounding percentage of ALL TIME puts him above those men in rebounding skill. Heck Rodman should have been the 96 finals MVP, not Jordan. Many people including the Supersonics coach (who was furious with Rodman) admit that. But Jordan is no stranger to undeserved accolades. Lets not forget that Rodman put in the clutch free throws and rebounds in the 97 finals that secured a game
@blackadam06 Charles only averaged a few rebounds less per game at that time but he in general is still a better rebounder than Dennis because Charles also scored 22 points and had 4 assists and a steal and a black per game while Dennis only scored like 7 points per game - Charles did it all and Dennis didn't
"Charles only averaged a few rebounds less per game at that time but he in general is still a better rebounder"
Ok..Joe Johnson only avg's a few less pts than kobe, so Joe's a better scorer than him...SMH
U Y2K kids kill me with trying to circumvent the FACTS with your ignorant ass opinions. If Barkley were the better rebounder it would've consistently been reflected in his on-court rebounding production, yet from 1992-98, Rodman had the BETTER rebounding totals & avg!
What the f*ck does that have to do with their rebounding prowess?
"Charles did it all and Dennis didn't"
And..?
We're not discussing who was the better overall player, only their rebounding exploits. What does Charles' scoring have to do with which one of them was the better rebounder?
That comment doesn't even make any sense.
That's like me saying MJ was a better assists guy than Magic because he scored more..SMH
@goinham25 Larry Johnson a better rebounder than Rodman? You're talking about Grandma(Commercial) from UNLV right. That's funny. Larry Johnson was only 6"5 1/2 and he had tons of heart but he was never a better rebounder than Rodman even before the back problems when he was with Charlotte. Barkley and Larry Johnson had better offensive games but Rodamn was a rebounding machine no matter how you slice it. He had the ability to grab rebounds even when he didnt have the best positioning.
@NBAGOATS Both weren't "centers" in name, but certainly they did the job of a typical center (and MUCH more.) I find the 95 playoffs as a good indicator that he couldn't win without a good defensive/rebounding big man.
@Sully12BB Wilt never dominated Russell: FALSE! Wilt and Russell squared off 142 times. Wilt averaged 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds in those games. Russell averaged 23.7 points and 14.5 rebounds against Wilt (Russell's career average was 22.5 and Wilt's was 22.9, so it sure looks like Russell wasn't controlling the boards in those games!) Wilt had a 62 point game on January 14, 1962, in Boston and had 6 other games of 50 points against Russell. Russel had only 3 games of 30+ against Wilt.
@Sully12BB Wilt not a team player: FALSE! Wilt was asked to give up the scoring title and become a defensive player in 67 to win the title and he did so. Guess what? He also led the league in assists that year! He is the only center ever to do that! Guess who never lead the league in assists... Jordan! Yep! A center can lead the league in assists without bringing the ball up the court and he is not a team player... LOL.
@Sully12BB And to top off another blatantly uneducated sentence. Jordan field goal attempts per game career average: 22.9 Wilt Chamberlain field goal attempts per game career average: 22.5. Cmon this is too easy! All I can tell you to do is Research, Research, and Research.
@Sully12BB Look up Chamberlain blocks Kareem. No other center can claim blocking Kareem's skyhook to my knowledge. I would say West/Chamberlain, Cousy/Russell, Bird/Parish/Mchale. You only citing Jordan/Pippen shows your lack of knowledge of the Bulls strategy, and thus probably your lack of total nba knowledge. It was a Bulls trio of Jordan/Pippen/Grant (Grant was the key to the Doberman Defense) then Jordan/Pippen/Rodman, the leagues leading rebounder and part of triangle offense.
@straty899 I'm well aware of the triangle offense, I said Jordan/Pippen because they were the constants throughout the Bulls' run of success. West/Chamberlain? Who covers Jordan or Magic or Larry? Cousy/Russell? Who covers Jordan or Magic or Larry? The fact remains is that in the 60s, guards were slower and less athletic and would have no chance to keep up with the faster, better guards/forwards of the 80s/90s, even if wilt and russell were great big men.
@Sully12BB Nah thats bullshit, Cousy, Robertson, Rodgers, hell even Attles could guard Jordan or any of them. Could they shut down Jordan? Probably not, he is one of the greatest, but Jordan couldn't stop them. Robertson averaged a few triple doubles in his career, slow my ass lol. I dont think the guards were much better at all unless you count marketing of the new game of basketball. Obviously you have never watched a 60s basketball game if you make those claims.
@straty899 Great, that means Wilt would win in a bench press contest, I'm talking brute force, have shaq back you down and just destroy you as he lowers the shoulder and throws it down. Shaq made a lot of big strong centers look like rag dolls in his day. Which is all irrelevant, the overriding point here is that jordan was better and the 80s/90s were the greatest eras of the nba. Today is very weak with no defense and a lack of overall fundamentals, but Wilt played with a bunch of scrubs
@straty899 Great, that means Wilt would win in a bench press contest, I'm talking brute force, have shaq back you down and just destroy you as he lowers the shoulder and throws it down. Shaq made a lot of big strong centers look like rag dolls in his day. Which is all irrelevant, the overriding point here is that jordan was better and the 80s/90s were the greatest eras of the nba. Today is very weak with no defense and a lack of overall fundamentals, but Wilt played with a bunch of scrubs
@ak231510 In Wilt’s career he also faced Hall of Famers Kareem abdul Jabbar 7’2, Bob Lanier 6’11″ , Wes Unseld 6’7”, Elvin Hayes 6’9″ and Dave Cowans 6’9 all Hall of Famer centers.Wilt faced more Hall of Fame centers in NBA history.
@straty899 wow, so you've completely changed your story about Bill Russell facing dominant centers and have switched to Wilt being the one who faced dominant centers. And by the way, Kareem wasnt in the league until the very end of Wilts career, its kind of cheap to throw him in there, & you yourself just listed a bunch of players, none of which are 7 foot tall, which was my point, no other dominant 7 footers. The fact that guys who were listed at 6-9 and 6-7 played center only proves my point.
@ak231510 Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell played in the same timeframe lol so they both played roughly the same centers. I just listed a bunch of 7 footers and would be 7 footers with shoes on (in todays league.) And those 6-9 centers prove the point that height is irrelevant, 6-7, 6-9 hall of famers. And again Dwight Howard, Alonzo Mourning, plenty of others are below 7 feet but are still dominant.
@straty899 Please also consider that of all the hall of famers to ever win a title, MJ may be the only one to ever do so without a dominant center, or at least a very good inside game. That is what should really impress people. Kobe gets Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Magic had Kareem Worthy, Bird - Parish/Mchale, Jerry West- Wilt Then you have russell hakeem duncan all being dominant inside men themselves, MJ had bill cartwright, or luc longley playing center for his titles, that is amazing.
@ak231510 Who cares? Jordan played in a watered down expansion league and had his fair share of help. Rodman, Kukoc, Pippen, Grant were all great players in their own right.
@straty899 rodman and grant were defensive rebound specialists, and pippen and kukoc were win players. The fact that jordan was the bulls inside game does not get the credit it deserves. No one has ever been able to do it the way he did, and watered down is not correct at all. Ewing, Morning, Hakeem, Shaq, dikembe, david robinson, right there is more dominant big men than you listed for those eras
@ak231510 The point about watered down is that Jordan only had to play these guys 2-5 times a year because of the 30+ teams while Chamberlain played against Hall of Famers 40 games a year because 4/8 teams had HOF centers. Plus look up air judden, he breaks down some key stats of Jordan that prove he didnt make his teammates better etc.
"Russell played in the greatest era of basketball, playing against HOF centers every other game"
I vehemently disagree with that..
Yes he's in my All Time Top 5, but I can't even go there.
When he played there were only 8 teams in the league (non west of Minneapolis), and they ONLY had to win 2 rds to win the title! And the BEST centers that a prime Russell played against (defensively), was 6'11 Walt Bellamy and 7'1 Wilt.
@blackadam06 Walt Bellamy 6’11”, Willis Reed 6’11 Walter Dukes 7’0, Daryl Imhoff 6’10, Mel Counts 7’0, Joe Strawder 6’10, and Svede Halbrook 7’3 in a non watered down 9 team league. These were real heights not exaggerated like today where players are measured in shoes. Dwight Howard for instance is 6’9″ not 6’11 as NBA draft express (right online) points out. Ben Wallace is between 6’6″ and 6’7″ not 6’9.” HAKEEM was 6’10″ and Ewing 6’9″ not 7′.
@blackadam06 I disagree with you. 8 teams makes the league harder due to concentration of talent. The interesting thing as to why he won was because of his defense. His defense was so good he was being elected MVP a few times on defense ALONE. He had the amazing desire to win and would do anything for it. I agree Russell had help but I think the sheer determination made his teammates want to stay. The only constant in Russell's first title and last is Russell himself.
Russell played with a TON of HOFmers during his title runs, whereas MJ only played with 2 (1 for only 3 seasons).
"When they compare players to Michael in terms of competitiveness, the [only guy] in the [same breath] with Jordan is [Bill Russell]. But [nobody] in the [history of the game] has [dominated] [both ends] of the floor like Michael. Therein lies [the difference].
-- Hubie Brown: "Michael Jordan: How would I coach against him"; nba . com
@blackadam06 Yes but in a watered down league 2 is still more than his competition usually. Thats why it would be easier imho. I dont really care about quotes because there are so many for both sides, its basically irrelevant. If you really like I could pull some for Wilt, Russell, Johnson, etc. But with the talent levels: 96 Supersonics: 0 HOF 97-98 Jazz: 2 Hof 96-98 Bulls: 3 HOF (technically 4 in 96 with Parish but its just lol to consider him then)
@blackadam06 Russell is the guy that made the HOF players unlike Jordan, who had some truly good players to begin with. When MJ leaves his team, the bulls drop 2 wins and lose in the the playoffs on hugely controversial call. Pippen and Grant have the best seasons of their career with a lousy 7 ppg SG replacement. When Russell leaves his team drops 15+ games and dont even make the playoffs. Its not a fair comparison. Russell is the consummate team player and winner.
There's also commentary from Celtics from those title teams on this video as well...listen to what they said about MJ's accomplishments & impact on the bulls..
@blackadam06 Again enough with throwing in other people's opinions. You seem like a smart guy from what ive looked at from your channel but you are listening only to opinions and not statistics. I could pull up a video about Walt Frazier saying Wilt Chamberlain could score 75 ppg in todays league... but its just an opinion. I suggest looking up "air judden" as he breaks down why Jordan wasnt more than a selfish stat man.
@blackadam06 I also agree with you about the Kobe stuff. The guy isn't as good as MJ but your annoyance with Kobe fans not knowing good statistics or figures to provide ample evidence as to him being the best is the same as how I feel with most Jordan fans. There isn't any criteria where Jordan is defined as the best, because there is a greater winner: Russell, a more dominant player: Chamberlain, a more worthy teammate: Robertson (or any other great but i felt the need to put the big O up.)
@blackadam06 Also since you love quotes, heres one after Doug Collins put MJ at point guard because Chicago wasnt making it deep enough in the playoffs: "Do you know who's the biggest obstacle to us running? Michael Jordan, that's who. He won't let go of the ball." - Doug Collins
@FavreianVengeance Umm.... Don't know how to break this to you, but Seattle was not the only good defensive team he played. If you going to put Utah up there, then you have to put Portland there too cuz they were a quality defensive team. And I don't know how you overlooked the Lakers. They were the best team, defensively, 2nd in the league, that he faced in the finals. Only Phoenix had a below average defense. Also he shot 45% 0ver the 2 years he played Utah. Do your homework next time.
@MrBirdforthree No. Finals MVPs are very finnicky. The 3rd or 4th best player on a team can have a good series and win it. Naturally, the star of the team usually does win it though. To me, Finals MVPs don't factor much in an equation. Jordan generally played teams with weak defenses in the finals. The one time he played a good defensive team he shot 40 percent against Seattle. And he shot poorly against Utah for that matter too. So if a guy shoots poorly and still wins a Finals MVP why care?
You talked an awful lot about penises. Larry bird's gonna come to your house and fuck you with his horse cock, watch out. then he'll shoot your lights out. Like always.
Kobe is great and the next legend in my eyes but calling him even top 5 is silly. He plays in a much weaker, less physical, centerless league compared to the 90s. You compare his offensive abilities to guys like Pippen, Wilkins, Drexler and it's really hard to say that those guys couldn't put up huge numbers without handchecking and a center blocking the lane.
1. MJ 2. Bird 3. Magic 4. Kareem 5. Hakeem. Who would you take out to put Kobe in?
@MrProtuber Jordan's not #1. He's about #13. Kobe is like between 20 and 30 though. So I do agree that there is a discrepancy between those two players.
@xavierdwight23 Where Jordan ranks: 1. Larry Bird 2. Bill Russell 3. Oscar Robertson 4. Lou Alcindor 5. Tim Duncan 6. Wilt Chamberlain 7. Jerry West 8. Scottie Pippen 9. Earvin Johnson 10. Shaquille O'Neal 11. Len Bias 12. John Stockton 13. Charles Barkley 14. Kevin Garnett 15. Moses Malone 16. Hakeem Olajuwon 17. Pistol Pete 18. Elgin Baylor 19. Lebron James 20. C-Webb 21. Michael Jordan
The corporate media that wants you to believe MJ is the undisputed GOAT. He's not even close.
@FavreianVengeance You must not watch a lot of basketball. Or maybe you're just scarred from your childhood when you walked in on your mom getting railed by a guy wearing a Jordan jersey with a 32 inch pecker.
@FavreianVengeance Damn, maybe it is just your stupidity. Okay, 6x finals MVP, 10x scoring champion, 3x steal champion, Def. player of the year 88', 5x MVP, embarrassed the league and it's superstars in the '80s, revolutionized basketball. Arguably one of the greatest ATHLETES to have ever lived as well. A lot of heart. Lets see your list of 21 other players better than him?
@stallionplaya52 Finals MVPs really mean little to me. Of course the star of any team that wins it is probably going to get MVP. He was a good scorer, but he often scored at the expense of his team. 3x steals champ? You conveniently overlook that the Bulls D improved 4 ppg after his 1st retirement! Clearly his defensive rotation sucked and he overly gambled to pad his stats. He embarrassed superstars in the 80s? Bird beat Jordan 14x in a row (swept him from playoffs 2x) Isiah owned him. CONTD
Lots of bullshit talked about Michael Jordan. Is he the best player ever? I think he is. Did he single handedly win all those championships by his will and desire? No, of course not. I think Charles proved this when he talked about Jordan dropping 63 on the 86 Celtics during the playoffs. Jordan dropped 63 but he lost the game and the series by a landslide. Firstly Jordan could score from day one but the Bad Boys taught him team play through the Jordan rules. Secondly he got a team in the 90's.
Flipper79able 1 month ago
@Flipper79able Jordan rules were nothing but bullies if you watched the game you saw how they made it look like football out there, that was unfair, anyone who could punch a player in the throat on the way to the hoop and get away with it is someone not worth mentioning. If anything Jordan rules took away to championships from the legacy we all no and love.
goinham25 1 month ago
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Flipper79able 1 month ago
@straty899 But with that said I've watch him pull several playoff games out after Rodman got in foul trouble & got technicals & had to ride the bench most of the gm. A lot gms Rodman would only get like 7 to 9rebs & was inaffective & even w/Pip being out w/the back injury MJ still lead em 2victory. Thats the incredible thing.
TheRebuiltOne1980 1 month ago
@straty899 Of course ur statement is correct but no1 said he never had a great interior defender or rebounder. Ever nba team has a rebound leader. Whats incredible is he never had a true dominant big man which is true. Horace Grant played 4 Orlando but Shaq & Penny didnt win even 1 title & Rodman had never 3peated nor did he think he ever would.
TheRebuiltOne1980 1 month ago
@TheRebuiltOne1980 So? I could say that the Celtics had no dominant big man because he wasn't an amazing post player or shooter. What about the Pistons of 04 i beleive? or Magic with the againg Kareem? Rodman and Grant were very good big men, theres no reason to excuse that fact. And MJ can't win without Pippen as noted from his 1-11 playoff record without him. Yeah Rodman only got 7-9 rebounds some games... in about 25 min of playing time. Kukoc took over in those games.
straty899 1 month ago
wow he didnt even put kareem abdul jabar in his best players ever....-____-
LuneeyTunezJerk 1 month ago
@LuneeyTunezJerk Yeah Kareem is definitely a legit contender as the greatest player ever if you also include his achievements in high school and college but Michael Jordan is in my opinion the greatest professional player ever. If you compare him with all the alltime greats, you will find that in the play-off and finals Jordan elevated his level beyond them. Russell was a defensive genius, but he wasn't a great offensive player and he had a team stacked with future HOF. Wilt wilted in play-offs.
bolder2009 1 month ago
@bolder2009 Wilt didn't Wilt lol. If you are using Russell's HOF excuse for his lack of greatness then you can't use it to deny Wilt's. Its simple logic. Also Wilt didn't realy downgrade his playing, and in fact his 2 championships are proof of that. Also Jordan had more HOF playing with him than any team he faced in the finals, as opposed to Wilt having less than Russell's. Wilt didn't Wilt. Jordan is great, Russell is great, and so is WIlt.
straty899 1 month ago
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bolder2009 1 month ago
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@straty899 Wilt was great ONLY in the regular season. HOW did wilt lose the 69 finals with his team mate Jerry West averaging 37.9 ppg? And losing to Bill Russell on literally his last legs in the NBA. Please explain. Why did his scoring drop from 30.1 ppg in the regular season to 22.5 ppg in the playoffs?? When the good teams were left, Chamberlain wilted. That's the pattern of his whole career.
bolder2009 1 month ago
the title sounds wrong
samtheman7975 2 months ago
Jordan is the best, legend, god, #23! if you say "basketball" the first name that you think of should be Michael Jordan,nuff said!
topdog607 2 months ago
@starty899 wow you definitely didn't see Michael Jordan play. His defense was unbelievably phenomenal along with his offensive game don't compare today's players to him it was a totally different game. Dont bother commenting back I'm not responding to some little teenager who's favorite team is the heat and you think learns the best... Homo.
ChicagoMane1993 2 months ago
@ChicagoMane1993 Well Merry Christmas to you! I never said his defense was bad in his early career, but it wasnt amazing in the end. Im not a teenager nor is my favorite team the heat. I have no favorite team now as I preferred to go into situations unbiased. By the way thank you for acknowledging my humanity with the calling me of a Homosapian (thats why you capitalized the "H", right?) Thanks for the comment though, and thanks for NOT looking at some reasons I provided!
straty899 2 months ago
@ChicagoMane1993 BTW, I have never brought up the issues of any modern players to him! Please I am up for a good debate with anyone but when tensions run high its never fun for anyone. You can look through the comments with the debate I have been having with Sully and Blackadams for some real reasons I have provided for saying Jordan isn't the goat. Have a good day and a Merry Christmas (or Sol Invictus lol)
straty899 2 months ago
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ON MY CHANNEL SITE THE REAL AND ((((UNTOLD STORY)))) OF JORDAN! A MUST SEE!!!!!!!
tiger1649 2 months ago
@MrBirdforthree Jules: "English MFer! DO YOU SPEAK IT!!!???"
500ncb 2 months ago
@MrBirdforthree BIRD AND DUNCAN TIE !!!!!!! you are clearly a nigga and a spurs fan who is fucking stupid as pure shit.
Vergecurtis 2 months ago
Bill Russell overated are you fucking serious he is without a doubt the greatest defensive player of all time
sammyjoe789 2 months ago
@sammyjoe789 no, hakeem
Vergecurtis 2 months ago
@sammyjoe789 russell played in a weak era where he was literally one of the only 7 footers in the league. He and Chamberlin were pretty much it. 20 rebounds sounds great, but when you are taller than everyone by 5 inches, its not quite as special. Russell was great, but he was also a little overrated. Top Ten all-time for sure, but not anywhere near MJ's class (which no one is)
ak231510 2 months ago
@ak231510 Oh wow not true. The average height and weight was roughly the same in the 60s as it was in the 90s. Russell is 6'10, Wilt 7'1 (without shoes on as players nowadays are measured, ie Jordan was 6'4 not 6'6.) Russell played in the greatest era of basketball, playing against HOF centers every other game (undiluted league of 8-10 teams.) The Celtics alone had 8 HOF playing one season. Imagine if Jordan had to play against teams of Barkley, Stockton, Rodman, Pippen, "Dream", etc.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 exactly, you named russell and chamberlin, now name the other dominant 7 footers in that era? Oh that's right, there were none. And you obviously forget that when jordan played the HOF stacked 86 Celtics, he dropped 63 points on them as a second year player who had yet to develop with jumper like we know it now.As for the russell era, Petit was only 6-9, as was willis reed. Calling those guys centers is like calling larry bird a center
ak231510 2 months ago
@ak231510 Here are some listed heights in Wilt's time. Walt Bellamy 6’11”, Willis Reed 6’11 Walter Dukes 7’0, Daryl Imhoff 6’10, Mel Counts 7’0, Joe Strawder 6’10, and Svede Halbrook 7’3 in a non watered down 9 team league. These were real heights not exaggerated like today where players are measured in shoes. Dwight Howard for instance is 6’9″ not 6’11 as NBA draft express (right online) points out. Ben Wallace is between 6’6″ and 6’7″ not 6’9.” HAKEEM was 6’10″ and Ewing 6’9″ not 7′.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 really? You think dwight howard is only 6-9? Dont be stupid, that is not even close. And I have stood right next to MJ before, and he is taller than me and I'm 6-5 so there goes that theory of yours. There are a lot of people are get a few inches, but howard and jordan are not one of them. Rodman and Barkley on the other hand are much shorter than they are listed.
ak231510 2 months ago
@ak231510 Also, Chamberlain scored 100 points in his second year, averaging 50 points that season. As irrelevant as that fact is to any argument (as was the Jordan statistic, I needed to do it for the laugh.) Do your research, please.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 again, chamberlin played in a league with no other dominant 7 footers expect russell. The 100 points he scored is impressive, but it was on a bunch of no bodies who couldn't check his size. Plus the fact that I'm sure you know the rules were much different back then. No 3 seconds in the lane, Chamberlin could plant himself there all he wanted, and no offensive goal tending either. And read up on what actually happened in that game. All the fouling by the warriors to get the ball back
ak231510 2 months ago
@ak231510 The 3 second lane was in place at the time lol, are you just trolling? Im pretty sure you are, and dont forget he was averaging 50 points at the time, I am reading Wilt's 100 point game book right now and dont worry I realize that in the last few minutes of the game teammates passed him the ball to get his 100. However there WAS a 3 second lane so obviously you haven't researched your basketball.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 ur right, i meant the 24 second clock. the 3 second violation was in place, but it was not called nearly like it is today, plus the fact that when it was first invented the lane was half the size it is today so players could still get very close without being in the lane.
ak231510 2 months ago
@ak231510 24 second clock was in too, and the lane was widened because of the one and only WILT CHAMBERLAIN. Chamberlain was so dominant rules had to be changed to stop him, Jordan was never a threat to basketball and actually had rule changes ie hand check rules, shorter 3 pt lane, etc given out because of players like him. Did you look up the link i told you too about height? I have done great research on this field and i had the same uninformed opinion like you until i took time to research
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 jordan played in the era of hand checking, which is why the 90s were a much tougher defensive era than today, and he also won titles after the 3 point line was backed up too, so neither of those point matter. And I told you I agree players are listed taller than they are, but I also confirmed that jordan is taller than 6-5, that is a guarantee. And whether howard is 7 foot or not, chamberlin never had to go against people as physically gifted as shaq or howard
ak231510 2 months ago
@ak231510 Chamberlain had to go against people MORE athletically gifted than Shaq and Howard before times of modern medicine, shoe technology, etc. Look up some of Russell's and Chamberlain's athletic acheivements. These men were much more fit than the likes of Shaq and Howard. Chamberlain was stronger, quicker, better shooter, than Shaq and had the highest max vertical in nba history. Also in 94-95 Hand-checking was eliminated from the end line in the backcourt to the opposite foul line.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 Really? You do know they called him the stilt for a reason? He was skinny. 275 is what he was listed at, but he looks a lot thinner than that. Lebron James is 250, you really think Chamerlin would be able to hold his ground against Shaq's 340 coming at him? People in Shaq' era couldn't handle him, I doubt that Wilt with the frame of today's small forwards would be able to check shaq. And Howard is a freak of nature with his physicality, his shoulders are bigger than Wilt's head.
ak231510 2 months ago
@ak231510 Do you know that chamberlain could bench press OVER 460 lbs, could dead lift 500 lbs? And he couldn't handle a 340 center (full of fat)? Yeah right. Shaq who can only bench press 425 lbs couldn't handle the stronger, more athletic Chamberlain. You are basing your info on opinions, not facts. Please research him, PLEASE! I beg you! Chamberlain was called the "Stilt" because he was tall! Please look up my stats and quit basing your opinion without research. PLEASE!
straty899 2 months ago
@ak231510 plus he was over 300 lbs near the end of his career, with a 4% body fat. Thats just incredible. And may i mention that Wilt averaged over 45 minutes a game in his career, over 48 minutes per game in a season, compared to Shaq who never averaged more than 40.0 minutes per game. PLEASE RESEARCH! Im trying to help lol.
straty899 2 months ago
@ak231510 Sorry the figures for shaq are around 450 lbs bench and Wilt usually around 460 lbs, 500 lbs max (in his college days and towards the end of his career)
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 Great, that means Wilt would win in a bench press contest, I'm talking brute force, have shaq back you down and just destroy you as he lowers the shoulder and throws it down. Shaq made a lot of big strong centers look like rag dolls in his day. Which is all irrelevant, the overriding point here is that jordan was better and the 80s/90s were the greatest eras of the nba. Today is very weak with no defense and a lack of overall fundamentals, but Wilt played with a bunch of scrubs
ak231510 2 months ago
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@straty899 Great, that means Wilt would win in a bench press contest, I'm talking brute force, have shaq back you down and just destroy you as he lowers the shoulder and throws it down. Shaq made a lot of big strong centers look like rag dolls in his day. Which is all irrelevant, the overriding point here is that jordan was better and the 80s/90s were the greatest eras of the nba. Today is very weak with no defense and a lack of overall fundamentals, but Wilt played with a bunch of scrubs
ak231510 2 months ago
@straty899 Great, that means Wilt would win in a bench press contest, I'm talking brute force, have shaq back you down and just destroy you as he lowers the shoulder and throws it down. Shaq made a lot of big strong centers look like rag dolls in his day. Which is all irrelevant, the overriding point here is that jordan was better and the 80s/90s were the greatest eras of the nba. Today is very weak with no defense and a lack of overall fundamentals, but Wilt played with a bunch of scrubs
ak231510 2 months ago
@ak231510 Bench pressing is brute force ya dumbass! Are you just a troll or a fanboy? Have you even looked up some information regarding the eras or the sites I have suggested? Wilt played in the toughest era of basketball and still dominated. Shaq made rag dolls of weak centers of his day! I seriously doubt you have any intelligence when you say that shaq would have more brute force when he is slower, weaker, less agile, less skillfull, and less of a jumper than wilt.
straty899 2 months ago
@ak231510 By the way the 80/90s were a weaker era consisting of up to 32 teams (weak expansion league teams with terrible players.) The 60s had 8-10 teams which means CONCENTRATION of talent rather than DILUTION of talent. (Are these too big of words for you?) Jordan is removed from the equation in the 94-95 season and his team drops 2 wins and loses in game 7 on a controversial call while you remove Wilt, Russell, or Oscar Robertson and the teams lose 12+ more and blow in the playoffs
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 That argument is completely predicated on the players talent level back then being what it was today. People also say that about Babe Ruth, but if you look at the pitchers he was facing, it wasn't exactly like he was going up against 95mph fastballs and bullpen specialists every night. Players back then were just not as fast, strong, athletic and skilled as they are now. And I know Wilt bench pressing, i got it. The predominantly white NBA of the 50s was clearly the same as it is now.
ak231510 2 months ago
@ak231510 Except Wilt played in the 60's/70s. I dont understand how you can use the strength argument when players in the 90s (and today) were pampered with their private planes, personal trainers, diet plans, the shoes, etc. you will realize that the MINUTE difference in strength in speed is nothing because if you removed these benefits Barkley, Shaq would be too fat to play (both struggled with their weight.) Meanwhile the 60s players were almost as strong, quick etc. without these helpings
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 the 80s/90s had more bad teams, but who cares once you get in the playoffs? could any 60s team have beaten the pistons that jordan went up against? could any 60s team have beaten the 86 celtics that jordan lost to? or the stockton/malone jazz? no, and if you honestly say that the 60s teams could have beaten any of the good 80s/90s teams you are out of your mind...just by saying that wilt, russell, or oscar were worth 12+ wins to their teams proves that the league wasnt as good or deep
Sully12BB 2 months ago
@Sully12BB You lose Bird, Magic the teams lose 10+ more too so I guess the 80's/90s arent deep either. See you guys just dont put much research in this stuff. The 67 Knicks could have beaten the 86 Celtics, the Pistons, etc. Im not out of my mind either, if you do the research its not even fair. The condensed leagues of the 60s meant deep talent all around so its not a fair comparison. 11 HOF on the Celtics. If you say the 90s allstar teams could beat the 60s I MIGHT see that as valid.
straty899 2 months ago
@Sully12BB Sorry I meant the '67 76ers lol. The point is great players in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s are all worth wins to their teams while Jordan is the only top notch player not to be worth more than 2 wins for his team. I think the best player is the one who helps his teammates become better players, not the one who betters himself. The 60's Celtics could have easily beaten the competition in the 90s. Its as simple as who wins... a team with 3 HOF players vs 7-11 HOF players.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 All i'll say is this: if you can name me a group of 5 players from any team in the 60s that had players to cover jordan/pippen, or bird/parish/mchale, or magic/kareem, i'll agree with you, but honestly, i've looked, and those teams dont exist, because those three combinations i just listed are the best ever, no contest, and there is no team from the unathletic 60s that could match up with those teams, it just didn't work that way back then
Sully12BB 2 months ago
@Sully12BB I respectfully disagree. 72' lakers had Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich. These 4 could beat any Jordan team respectivelly. In fact look at this site, the 95-96 Bulls are listed 10th. nba.com/history/toptenteams_index.html. I honestly dont think you understand how the 60s basketball was played because you have never seen it, and its understandable. But the 60s had the combination of the most rough, quickest, and toughest defenses.
straty899 2 months ago
@Sully12BB The 60s were not unathelic lol. What do you think happened in the 60s to the 90s? Evolution? It doesn't work that fast, boy. The main difference is the shoe technology, modern medicine, and modern workout programs. Plus the addition of personal trainers, personal jets etc. Even without those any 60s duo could rival that matchup. Chamberlain/Robertson could beat Magic/Kareem. In fact Chamberlain won his championship in 72 beating Kareem with defense.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 Also...shoe technology? Michael Jordan could jump because of shoe technology? You've got to be kidding me. He could do the things he could do because he was more athletically gifted than the people who played in the 60s, and the reason is that, for lack of a better phrase, the 60s players were mostly white, unathletic shooters or passers. It's got nothing to do with modern advances, and almost everyone who played in the NBA says Jordan is the best anyway so...I don't see your argument
Sully12BB 2 months ago
@Sully12BB Im not kidding you, obviously you have never studied the game of basketball. Mostly white, unathletic shooters and passers? WTF? 1. racism 2. the NBA wasnt all white, that was the 50s 3. athleticism has nothing to do with passing or shooting lololol. Its practice, which im sure that the 60s players obviously couldnt do because people in the 60s were all 5'5 white midgets doing set shots from low post. The 60s was the rougher, had tougher D, and was quicker than the 90s.
straty899 2 months ago
@Sully12BB Are you joking? Almost everyone who played NBA said Jordan was the best? Settle down slugger, obviously you have never expanded your research outside of 90s players and possibly the 00s players. I dont see your argument little boy haha. Do your research first, I can link you to some great sites.
straty899 2 months ago
@Sully12BB Athleticism - The old guys were playing with canvas shoes on hard courts, with no weight training, no nutritionists, three games in three days, flying coach, doubling up in motel rooms, etc. Put a pair of Air Jordan's on Connie Hawkins, get him decent food, provide him with solid coaching, let him lift some weights, and then let's see Rudy Gay try to deal with him. Hell, let's see Lebron try to deal with him.
straty899 2 months ago
@Sully12BB Also Jordan was playing in a watered down league of 30-32 teams as compared to the 8-10 teams of Chamberlain's era. If you add 2 liters of water to whiskey, the drink is more diluted, just as the talent level was in Jordan's era. Wilt played HOF centers every other night while Jordan would play maybe 10-20 games against HOF guards (and in later years, he wouldnt even play D against the better guards)
straty899 2 months ago
@Sully12BB google shoe technology of nba, the nba has even banned some shoes because they give too much of a competitive advantage. Cmon google some stuff instead of just making bad assumptions like most uneducated nba fans do! I realize reading a few books about 60s basketball might be boring but it could enlighten you on what the game was actually like!
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 This is all I need to know to tell me that the league wasn't better or deeper: the Celtics won 8 titles in a row and 11 in 13 years. That means that there was one dominant team, which happened to have a lot of great players. Bill Russell went 2 seasons without winning a title, one where he was injured. How does that show a deep league? That's a top heavy league. It's not possible to have that kind of success these days. Also, shoes aren't a huge deal in jumping. They just arent.
Sully12BB 2 months ago
@Sully12BB 11 HOF on one team at one point, usually around 7. They also have arguably the best player of all time! Who wouldnt win a title then? Even playing against the most athletically gifted center of all time with 3 HOF players they still won! Its called concentration of talent! But even then many greats werent on the Celtics. Elgin Baylor, Chamberlain, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Nate Thurmond, Lenny Wilkens,Bob Pettit, Jerry Lucas, Bill Cunningham (all in top 50 players list)
straty899 2 months ago
@Sully12BB Shoes can provide 1/2 inch in jumping, can let you grip the floor better, letter you recover quicker off a jump, some can provide better speed. Cmon! You just dont know what you are talking about!
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 If you think that 1/2 an inch of extra jumping and a little better grip is what made Michael and Magic and Larry so amazing, there's something wrong with you. Michael could have dunked and been just as explosive with 1/2 an inch less. I'm not saying that the shoes weren't more advanced in the 80s and 90s, I'm saying that they didn't make much of a difference, and most NBA players will say that Michael was the best, so what do you know that those guys don't? They played, you didn't.
Sully12BB 2 months ago
@Sully12BB I never said that was what made, it was extra icing on the proverbial cake. I provided other figures too but you are the one that dwelled on this fact. The shoes were more advanced, provided a minute difference, but there were other factors. But this NBA players saying MJ the greatest is a really stupid argument. There are plenty of players that have said Wilt that have said Wilt is the greatest. They played and said he is the greatest! Kareem said Bill Russell is the greatest!
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 Russell was the greatest winner, no doubt about it. Michael was the greatest all around basketball player. Stick him on any team in Russell's era, and Michael's team will win every single year just like Russell's teams did. Stick Russell on any team in the 80s and they win, just not every year. Jordan is #1, Russell is definitely #2.
Sully12BB 2 months ago
@Sully12BB Enough. All you are doing is providing your own opinion but there is no stats behind it. You are in love with Jordan, cool. I dont enjoy debating with people who have close-minded opinions even if they cant put facts behind it. I like debating with blackadams because at least he is making an effort to back his opinion. You are just throwing out your own undeducated opinion. Why would Russell not win less? How is Jordan the most dominating? Actually read my content, please.
straty899 2 months ago
@Sully12BB Russell's teams didn't win every year. Again no research or thought put into any of this.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 I said before, Russell was in the league 13 years. He was injured for one of those years, and failed to win a championship in another. In the other 11 seasons his team won the championship, at one point winning 8 straight. That's what I said. I'm not in love with Jordan, I just think he's the best basketball player to ever live and I think (well actually I know) that I'm in the majority there.
Sully12BB 2 months ago
@Sully12BB Ok but the majority isnt always right. Can you list your criteria as to why he is the best? You seem a little foolish because you cant back your stats but I am guessing you are a young kid so thats excusable. Provide me some key reasons why you think Jordan is the best, as MANY as possible. One thing I love is debating basketball and I love helping people even if they have a different opinion. Provide some key stats, criterions for what makes a GOAT, NOT OPINIONS.
straty899 2 months ago
@Sully12BB Like my criteria for the greatest player is the following: Makes his teammates better, is an excellent defender and rebounder (both are key to winning), can put up any offensive numbers his coaches ask of him, and finally can shut down any player on his opposing ends. The reason why MJ isnt the best for me is because he doesnt make his teammates better, later in his career his defense was not great, and he never gave up the scoring title when asked by his coach to do so.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 before i answer, when did jordan's coach ask him to give up the scoring title? Here's my criteria: must be dominant on both ends of the court, must keep up his level of play deep into his career, must be the best player at his position during his era (beyond question), and must win championships, because the whole point of the sport is to win. Jordan was on 9 nba all defense teams, won 5 mvp awards, won defensive player of the year, had i believe 10 scoring titles
Sully12BB 2 months ago
@Sully12BB Jordan didnt deserve his last 3 defensive player of the year titles. he certainly deserved his defensive player of the year in the 80s and he deserved his early 90s accolades but after... no. -airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/defense.htm- look up this site. Also I beleive it was 92 when Jackson asked Jordan to give up the scoring title. Of course it didnt happen.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 jordan only has one defensive player or the year award What are you talking about?
Imajinnin 1 month ago
@Imajinnin I never mentioned Jordan's DPOY award, what are YOU talking about?
straty899 1 month ago
@Sully12BB I personally think championships have no belonging in the GOAT criteria as championships are a team effort. Earlier I showed how Jordan had better teammates than his competition. (Look at my earlier posts to the other guy here.) I really respect that you are throwing out some stats though, now I can see where you are getting your ideas from, and I respect that.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 won his 6th championship in his 14th season well into his 30s, won 6 titles, and was, without a doubt, the best player at his position at the time, without question. Wilt and Russell were close to one another, you could argue that one was better than the other. There was never a player who beat jordan in the finals, there was never a player who consistently outplayed him or came close. And most basketball analysts will say that he was the greatest to ever play.
Sully12BB 2 months ago
@Sully12BB true Jordan was a dominant finals player, and beyond question the best 2 guard in the 90s (and probably all of basketball) but Jordan wasnt consinstently keeping his level of play into the end of his career (defensively at least) because Ron Harper was guarding the quicker (and usually better) guards because Jordan couldnt keep up later on.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 Even though the majority isn't always right, the people who played the game MOSTLY say that Jordan was the greatest, and his stats can't be equaled, other than by russell who won 11 rings, but wasn't as dominant a player. Russell is number 2 to me, mainly because of his rebounding, defense, and championships, but his offense wasn't dominant enough to make him the best ever.
Sully12BB 2 months ago
@Sully12BB His stats werent equaled they were beaten. And most players did not say Jordan was the best, only the ones that ESPN got interview (ie it wasnt around back in the 60s.) Jordan ppg: 30.1 Chamberlain: 30.1 Jordan rpg: 6.2 Wilt: 22.9 Jordan shooting %: .497 Wilt: .540 Jordan season records: 4 Chamberlain: 72... obviously Jordan didnt have the best stats
straty899 2 months ago
@Sully12BB "For Michael, I once made a plea to him that we're going to have a team-oriented offense, and you're probably going to have to give up your scoring championship," Jackson recalled. Read about Jordan's spats with Phil Jackson. Read about how he put down Tex Winter and the triangle! Even his own teammate Horace Grant said that Jordan cared more about his points than the team.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 The problem with Wilt is he had exactly 1 decent player to play against and that's Russell. Jordan had plenty of solid contemporaries, like Drexler for example, that he absolutely dominated. Wilt never dominated Russell, and Wilt was well known for NOT being a team player, he always played for his numbers, shown by the fact that there were games where he had 50 and 60+ shot attempts. Jordan may have wanted to score, but he never did that.
Sully12BB 2 months ago
@Sully12BB Oh my god back to uneducated opinions. Lets start off with only 1 decent player: Yeah... no. 17 players in the 50 greatest players of all times list played in the 60s (a few more that started in 69.) So that myth is dismantled. He played against HOF centers every other night as compared to Jordan who only matched up against a HOF maybe 3-5 times a year.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 Which hall of fame centers? Check the numbers as to who actually WON the games between Russell and Wilt? Look at the video on youtube as to how Russell played Wilt. Russell didn't care about numbers, he just wanted to win the game. The year he led the league in assists? Read Bill Simmons, he'll tell you all you need to know about that year. And field goal attempts, I said Wilt had games of 50 or 60, not career averages, Jordan was better late career, that's why the numbers are skewed.
Sully12BB 2 months ago
@Sully12BB WOW! Winning is a team accomplishment! Tell me who is the better Power Forward - Rodman or Malone? Russell didn't care about numbers because he couldn't stop Wilt. But the fact that you used Bill Simmons as a source shows your lack of basketball knowledge. Read this... billsimmonsbogusbook.blogspot.com/
straty899 2 months ago
@Sully12BB "If [the referee] is calling [the game] loose then everyone gets away with more. So, you have to handle your own man accordingly, unless it's Wilt Chamberlain. Him, you just don't handle. He's too strong. The best you can do is make him work hard."
-- Bill Russell, Go up For Glory p.100.
Bill Russell frequently said he could not stop Wilt but only put up speed bumps on his way. The fact of the matter is Wilt was the only one who had competition, NOT Jordan.
straty899 2 months ago
@Sully12BB billsimmonsbogusbook. blogspot . com Read that site, the fact that you bring up Bill Simmons shows your complete lack of understanding the game. The man wasn't much more than a cheerleader for his certain side. Bill Russell didnt "care" about numbers with Wilt because he couldnt compete. Look up any interview lol. Im going to tell you for the last time... winning is a TEAM effort, not and individual one.
straty899 2 months ago
@Sully12BB Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Bob Pettit, Dolph Schayes, Elvin Hayes, Jerry Lucas, Willis Reed, Dave Cowens, Billy Cunningham, Wes Unseld, Nate Thurmond, Spencer Haywood, Walt Bellamy, Bob Lanier... and he would guard the HOF centers too, unlike Jordan in his late career, if he played against a quick guard, Harper would take that man.
straty899 2 months ago
@Sully12BB Jordan was NOT better late career, he may have still been the selfish ballwhore he was back in the day, but his defense was weak. I doubt you read the article I linked you about his overrated late career defense, so you might never learn.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 That's not fucking true, you don't know shit about basketball.
cookies749 2 months ago
@cookies749 Oh I can see your logic! Oh wait I cant! You put down an opinion with no backing! What isnt true?
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 jordan had always been a dominant defender you don't know what you're talking about. he thrived off his defense i guess you forget about the steal he had against new jersey in the first round to take the win in the end and of course the steal he had on malone to win the title.
moneyman237952 1 month ago
@moneyman237952 certainly in his early years he was a dominant defender, but in his later years he was NOT a dominant defender, but still a good one... and guess what! I didn't forget about either of those steals! However two steals dont define a dominant defender! Jordan was not a good team defender, in fact in his first retirement the Bulls defensive rating went up (thats with a CBA player to fill his spot.) You, my friend, dont know what you are talking about.
straty899 1 month ago
@straty899 jordan is like 3rd all time in steals he always shut his oponents down. The Bulls were a better defensive team with jordan. His help defense was better than anybody elses in the league and he was constantly all team defense even in his later years. He just had to do so mujch offensively he took time to rest on d but still was the best.
moneyman237952 1 month ago
@moneyman237952 What about Pooh Richardson, Damon Staudemire (rookie), Magic Johnson? Jordan never "shut down" the harder to guard opponents. His help defense was bad shown by the Bulls having better defensive ratings without Jordan when they did with Jordan (these are stats, not opinions.) Plus steals were only kept til after the 72 season AND Jordan got blown many times on failed steal attempts so that isn't hugely impressive to me.
straty899 1 month ago
@straty899 Jordan stood apart because he was able to elevate his game more than any player in history, and was able to win multiple championships without an allstar Center.
NBAGOATS 1 month ago
@NBAGOATS Yeah I get the part where he "elevated" his game... kinda... but the championships without an allstar center argument is pure BS. A center is needed for defense/rebounding (the two most important elements in a championship team) and the first 3 championships he had Horace Grant who did both well and had some good offense to add to it and on the last 3peat he had Rodman who not only was the best rebounder in the game, but also the best interior defender.
straty899 1 month ago
@straty899 i'm sorry but the fact that you said Rodman was the best rebounder of the time makes me think you really don't know basketball. Without comparison Charles barkley was a better rebounder than Dennis, so was Hakeem, Larry Johnson, the list goes on and on. To karl Malone Rodman was inneffective so was every other big man Jordan had, which is why Jordan went apeshit just to get the game in a situation where it took a shot to win.
goinham25 1 month ago
@goinham25 You don't know basketball then. 7 straight rebounding titles over those men, along with the highest rebounding percentage of ALL TIME puts him above those men in rebounding skill. Heck Rodman should have been the 96 finals MVP, not Jordan. Many people including the Supersonics coach (who was furious with Rodman) admit that. But Jordan is no stranger to undeserved accolades. Lets not forget that Rodman put in the clutch free throws and rebounds in the 97 finals that secured a game
straty899 1 month ago
@goinham25 Sorry 98 finals, typo. Jordan is a hell of a player and the best SG of all time, but we gotta be fair to him.
straty899 1 month ago
@goinham25
"Charles barkley was a better rebounder than Dennis"
SMH..really?!!
Who was it that avg'd (and totaled) more rebs than everyone else in the league from 1992-98, while winning the rebounding title each of those seasons?
U guys kill me with this juvenile denying of the facts & evidence, just because U can't deal in with the reality of the matter...SMH
Nobody who's supposed to "be better at something" than the next guy, will consistently fair WORSE at it than him!
How silly is that?!!
blackadam06 2 weeks ago
@blackadam06 Charles only averaged a few rebounds less per game at that time but he in general is still a better rebounder than Dennis because Charles also scored 22 points and had 4 assists and a steal and a black per game while Dennis only scored like 7 points per game - Charles did it all and Dennis didn't
northvalleynews 2 weeks ago
@northvalleynews
"Charles only averaged a few rebounds less per game at that time but he in general is still a better rebounder"
Ok..Joe Johnson only avg's a few less pts than kobe, so Joe's a better scorer than him...SMH
U Y2K kids kill me with trying to circumvent the FACTS with your ignorant ass opinions. If Barkley were the better rebounder it would've consistently been reflected in his on-court rebounding production, yet from 1992-98, Rodman had the BETTER rebounding totals & avg!
blackadam06 1 week ago
@northvalleynews
"Charles also scored 22 points and had 4 assists"
What the f*ck does that have to do with their rebounding prowess?
"Charles did it all and Dennis didn't"
And..?
We're not discussing who was the better overall player, only their rebounding exploits. What does Charles' scoring have to do with which one of them was the better rebounder?
That comment doesn't even make any sense.
That's like me saying MJ was a better assists guy than Magic because he scored more..SMH
blackadam06 1 week ago
@goinham25 Larry Johnson a better rebounder than Rodman? You're talking about Grandma(Commercial) from UNLV right. That's funny. Larry Johnson was only 6"5 1/2 and he had tons of heart but he was never a better rebounder than Rodman even before the back problems when he was with Charlotte. Barkley and Larry Johnson had better offensive games but Rodamn was a rebounding machine no matter how you slice it. He had the ability to grab rebounds even when he didnt have the best positioning.
CanvassBlack 2 weeks ago
@NBAGOATS Both weren't "centers" in name, but certainly they did the job of a typical center (and MUCH more.) I find the 95 playoffs as a good indicator that he couldn't win without a good defensive/rebounding big man.
straty899 1 month ago
@Sully12BB Wilt never dominated Russell: FALSE! Wilt and Russell squared off 142 times. Wilt averaged 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds in those games. Russell averaged 23.7 points and 14.5 rebounds against Wilt (Russell's career average was 22.5 and Wilt's was 22.9, so it sure looks like Russell wasn't controlling the boards in those games!) Wilt had a 62 point game on January 14, 1962, in Boston and had 6 other games of 50 points against Russell. Russel had only 3 games of 30+ against Wilt.
straty899 2 months ago
@Sully12BB Wilt not a team player: FALSE! Wilt was asked to give up the scoring title and become a defensive player in 67 to win the title and he did so. Guess what? He also led the league in assists that year! He is the only center ever to do that! Guess who never lead the league in assists... Jordan! Yep! A center can lead the league in assists without bringing the ball up the court and he is not a team player... LOL.
straty899 2 months ago
@Sully12BB And to top off another blatantly uneducated sentence. Jordan field goal attempts per game career average: 22.9 Wilt Chamberlain field goal attempts per game career average: 22.5. Cmon this is too easy! All I can tell you to do is Research, Research, and Research.
straty899 2 months ago
@Sully12BB Look up Chamberlain blocks Kareem. No other center can claim blocking Kareem's skyhook to my knowledge. I would say West/Chamberlain, Cousy/Russell, Bird/Parish/Mchale. You only citing Jordan/Pippen shows your lack of knowledge of the Bulls strategy, and thus probably your lack of total nba knowledge. It was a Bulls trio of Jordan/Pippen/Grant (Grant was the key to the Doberman Defense) then Jordan/Pippen/Rodman, the leagues leading rebounder and part of triangle offense.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 I'm well aware of the triangle offense, I said Jordan/Pippen because they were the constants throughout the Bulls' run of success. West/Chamberlain? Who covers Jordan or Magic or Larry? Cousy/Russell? Who covers Jordan or Magic or Larry? The fact remains is that in the 60s, guards were slower and less athletic and would have no chance to keep up with the faster, better guards/forwards of the 80s/90s, even if wilt and russell were great big men.
Sully12BB 2 months ago
@Sully12BB Nah thats bullshit, Cousy, Robertson, Rodgers, hell even Attles could guard Jordan or any of them. Could they shut down Jordan? Probably not, he is one of the greatest, but Jordan couldn't stop them. Robertson averaged a few triple doubles in his career, slow my ass lol. I dont think the guards were much better at all unless you count marketing of the new game of basketball. Obviously you have never watched a 60s basketball game if you make those claims.
straty899 2 months ago
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@straty899 Great, that means Wilt would win in a bench press contest, I'm talking brute force, have shaq back you down and just destroy you as he lowers the shoulder and throws it down. Shaq made a lot of big strong centers look like rag dolls in his day. Which is all irrelevant, the overriding point here is that jordan was better and the 80s/90s were the greatest eras of the nba. Today is very weak with no defense and a lack of overall fundamentals, but Wilt played with a bunch of scrubs
ak231510 2 months ago
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@straty899 Great, that means Wilt would win in a bench press contest, I'm talking brute force, have shaq back you down and just destroy you as he lowers the shoulder and throws it down. Shaq made a lot of big strong centers look like rag dolls in his day. Which is all irrelevant, the overriding point here is that jordan was better and the 80s/90s were the greatest eras of the nba. Today is very weak with no defense and a lack of overall fundamentals, but Wilt played with a bunch of scrubs
ak231510 2 months ago
@ak231510 In Wilt’s career he also faced Hall of Famers Kareem abdul Jabbar 7’2, Bob Lanier 6’11″ , Wes Unseld 6’7”, Elvin Hayes 6’9″ and Dave Cowans 6’9 all Hall of Famer centers.Wilt faced more Hall of Fame centers in NBA history.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 wow, so you've completely changed your story about Bill Russell facing dominant centers and have switched to Wilt being the one who faced dominant centers. And by the way, Kareem wasnt in the league until the very end of Wilts career, its kind of cheap to throw him in there, & you yourself just listed a bunch of players, none of which are 7 foot tall, which was my point, no other dominant 7 footers. The fact that guys who were listed at 6-9 and 6-7 played center only proves my point.
ak231510 2 months ago
@ak231510 Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell played in the same timeframe lol so they both played roughly the same centers. I just listed a bunch of 7 footers and would be 7 footers with shoes on (in todays league.) And those 6-9 centers prove the point that height is irrelevant, 6-7, 6-9 hall of famers. And again Dwight Howard, Alonzo Mourning, plenty of others are below 7 feet but are still dominant.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 Please also consider that of all the hall of famers to ever win a title, MJ may be the only one to ever do so without a dominant center, or at least a very good inside game. That is what should really impress people. Kobe gets Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Magic had Kareem Worthy, Bird - Parish/Mchale, Jerry West- Wilt Then you have russell hakeem duncan all being dominant inside men themselves, MJ had bill cartwright, or luc longley playing center for his titles, that is amazing.
ak231510 2 months ago
@ak231510 Obviously you havent done any research, look up "nba players true heights" and click on the first link
straty899 2 months ago
@ak231510 Who cares? Jordan played in a watered down expansion league and had his fair share of help. Rodman, Kukoc, Pippen, Grant were all great players in their own right.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899 rodman and grant were defensive rebound specialists, and pippen and kukoc were win players. The fact that jordan was the bulls inside game does not get the credit it deserves. No one has ever been able to do it the way he did, and watered down is not correct at all. Ewing, Morning, Hakeem, Shaq, dikembe, david robinson, right there is more dominant big men than you listed for those eras
ak231510 2 months ago
@ak231510 The point about watered down is that Jordan only had to play these guys 2-5 times a year because of the 30+ teams while Chamberlain played against Hall of Famers 40 games a year because 4/8 teams had HOF centers. Plus look up air judden, he breaks down some key stats of Jordan that prove he didnt make his teammates better etc.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899
"Russell played in the greatest era of basketball, playing against HOF centers every other game"
I vehemently disagree with that..
Yes he's in my All Time Top 5, but I can't even go there.
When he played there were only 8 teams in the league (non west of Minneapolis), and they ONLY had to win 2 rds to win the title! And the BEST centers that a prime Russell played against (defensively), was 6'11 Walt Bellamy and 7'1 Wilt.
As Herm Edwards often says: "C'mon Man!!" LOL!!
blackadam06 2 months ago
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@blackadam06 Walt Bellamy 6’11”, Willis Reed 6’11 Walter Dukes 7’0, Daryl Imhoff 6’10, Mel Counts 7’0, Joe Strawder 6’10, and Svede Halbrook 7’3 in a non watered down 9 team league. These were real heights not exaggerated like today where players are measured in shoes. Dwight Howard for instance is 6’9″ not 6’11 as NBA draft express (right online) points out. Ben Wallace is between 6’6″ and 6’7″ not 6’9.” HAKEEM was 6’10″ and Ewing 6’9″ not 7′.
straty899 2 months ago
@blackadam06 I disagree with you. 8 teams makes the league harder due to concentration of talent. The interesting thing as to why he won was because of his defense. His defense was so good he was being elected MVP a few times on defense ALONE. He had the amazing desire to win and would do anything for it. I agree Russell had help but I think the sheer determination made his teammates want to stay. The only constant in Russell's first title and last is Russell himself.
straty899 2 months ago
@straty899
C'mon man..
Russell played with a TON of HOFmers during his title runs, whereas MJ only played with 2 (1 for only 3 seasons).
"When they compare players to Michael in terms of competitiveness, the [only guy] in the [same breath] with Jordan is [Bill Russell]. But [nobody] in the [history of the game] has [dominated] [both ends] of the floor like Michael. Therein lies [the difference].
-- Hubie Brown: "Michael Jordan: How would I coach against him"; nba . com
blackadam06 2 months ago
@blackadam06 Yes but in a watered down league 2 is still more than his competition usually. Thats why it would be easier imho. I dont really care about quotes because there are so many for both sides, its basically irrelevant. If you really like I could pull some for Wilt, Russell, Johnson, etc. But with the talent levels: 96 Supersonics: 0 HOF 97-98 Jazz: 2 Hof 96-98 Bulls: 3 HOF (technically 4 in 96 with Parish but its just lol to consider him then)
straty899 2 months ago
@blackadam06 Russell is the guy that made the HOF players unlike Jordan, who had some truly good players to begin with. When MJ leaves his team, the bulls drop 2 wins and lose in the the playoffs on hugely controversial call. Pippen and Grant have the best seasons of their career with a lousy 7 ppg SG replacement. When Russell leaves his team drops 15+ games and dont even make the playoffs. Its not a fair comparison. Russell is the consummate team player and winner.
straty899 2 months ago
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blackadam06 2 months ago
@straty899
"Russell is the guy that made the HOF players unlike Jordan"
youtube . com/watch?v=5D0VvYXSgHQ <--- @3:36 mark
I think Jerry Krause would disagree..
There's also commentary from Celtics from those title teams on this video as well...listen to what they said about MJ's accomplishments & impact on the bulls..
blackadam06 2 months ago
@blackadam06 Again enough with throwing in other people's opinions. You seem like a smart guy from what ive looked at from your channel but you are listening only to opinions and not statistics. I could pull up a video about Walt Frazier saying Wilt Chamberlain could score 75 ppg in todays league... but its just an opinion. I suggest looking up "air judden" as he breaks down why Jordan wasnt more than a selfish stat man.
straty899 2 months ago
@blackadam06 I also agree with you about the Kobe stuff. The guy isn't as good as MJ but your annoyance with Kobe fans not knowing good statistics or figures to provide ample evidence as to him being the best is the same as how I feel with most Jordan fans. There isn't any criteria where Jordan is defined as the best, because there is a greater winner: Russell, a more dominant player: Chamberlain, a more worthy teammate: Robertson (or any other great but i felt the need to put the big O up.)
straty899 2 months ago
@blackadam06 Also since you love quotes, heres one after Doug Collins put MJ at point guard because Chicago wasnt making it deep enough in the playoffs: "Do you know who's the biggest obstacle to us running? Michael Jordan, that's who. He won't let go of the ball." - Doug Collins
straty899 2 months ago
@FavreianVengeance Umm.... Don't know how to break this to you, but Seattle was not the only good defensive team he played. If you going to put Utah up there, then you have to put Portland there too cuz they were a quality defensive team. And I don't know how you overlooked the Lakers. They were the best team, defensively, 2nd in the league, that he faced in the finals. Only Phoenix had a below average defense. Also he shot 45% 0ver the 2 years he played Utah. Do your homework next time.
Dam0ndash9 2 months ago
Bill Russell is THE most overrated player of all time.
no1gunner14 2 months ago 2
@no1gunner14 true dat man
ClassSince93 2 months ago
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DIAHAINE 2 months ago
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ON MY CHANNEL SITE THE REAL AND ((((UNTOLD))))) STORY OF JORDAN! A MUST SEE!!!!!
tiger1649 2 months ago
@MrBirdforthree No. Finals MVPs are very finnicky. The 3rd or 4th best player on a team can have a good series and win it. Naturally, the star of the team usually does win it though. To me, Finals MVPs don't factor much in an equation. Jordan generally played teams with weak defenses in the finals. The one time he played a good defensive team he shot 40 percent against Seattle. And he shot poorly against Utah for that matter too. So if a guy shoots poorly and still wins a Finals MVP why care?
FavreianVengeance 3 months ago
@MrBirdforthree And you're talking in all caps and you sound like you have down syndrome. You're embarrassing yourself.
stallionplaya52 3 months ago
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You talked an awful lot about penises. Larry bird's gonna come to your house and fuck you with his horse cock, watch out. then he'll shoot your lights out. Like always.
stallionplaya52 3 months ago
Kobe is great and the next legend in my eyes but calling him even top 5 is silly. He plays in a much weaker, less physical, centerless league compared to the 90s. You compare his offensive abilities to guys like Pippen, Wilkins, Drexler and it's really hard to say that those guys couldn't put up huge numbers without handchecking and a center blocking the lane.
1. MJ 2. Bird 3. Magic 4. Kareem 5. Hakeem. Who would you take out to put Kobe in?
SolidSnakeRules 3 months ago
@SolidSnakeRules i Totally agree on that list.
Vergecurtis 3 months ago
omgg!! stop itt!! JORDAN #1 KOBE BETWEEN #3-#6....
MrProtuber 3 months ago
@MrProtuber Jordan's not #1. He's about #13. Kobe is like between 20 and 30 though. So I do agree that there is a discrepancy between those two players.
FavreianVengeance 3 months ago
@FavreianVengeance #13???? No disrespect, but you have the lowest basketball IQ that I have ever witnessed!!
xavierdwight23 3 months ago
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@xavierdwight23 Where Jordan ranks: 1. Larry Bird 2. Bill Russell 3. Oscar Robertson 4. Lou Alcindor 5. Tim Duncan 6. Wilt Chamberlain 7. Jerry West 8. Scottie Pippen 9. Earvin Johnson 10. Shaquille O'Neal 11. Len Bias 12. John Stockton 13. Charles Barkley 14. Kevin Garnett 15. Moses Malone 16. Hakeem Olajuwon 17. Pistol Pete 18. Elgin Baylor 19. Lebron James 20. C-Webb 21. Michael Jordan
The corporate media that wants you to believe MJ is the undisputed GOAT. He's not even close.
FavreianVengeance 3 months ago
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FavreianVengeance 3 months ago
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FavreianVengeance 3 months ago
@FavreianVengeance
HAHAHAHAHA
boredfun91 3 months ago
@FavreianVengeance Can you please tell me which players you have ahead of Jordan and why?
KingJames1871 3 months ago
@FavreianVengeance 13? What're you, retarded?
stallionplaya52 3 months ago
@stallionplaya52 You're right. I did a list. I actually have MJ 21. Go pull your hanes up and have some McDonalds Jordan jocker.
FavreianVengeance 3 months ago
@FavreianVengeance You must not watch a lot of basketball. Or maybe you're just scarred from your childhood when you walked in on your mom getting railed by a guy wearing a Jordan jersey with a 32 inch pecker.
stallionplaya52 3 months ago
@stallionplaya52 Please enlighten me on your reasons for why Jordan is presumably the greatest ever on your list.
FavreianVengeance 3 months ago
@FavreianVengeance Damn, maybe it is just your stupidity. Okay, 6x finals MVP, 10x scoring champion, 3x steal champion, Def. player of the year 88', 5x MVP, embarrassed the league and it's superstars in the '80s, revolutionized basketball. Arguably one of the greatest ATHLETES to have ever lived as well. A lot of heart. Lets see your list of 21 other players better than him?
stallionplaya52 3 months ago
@stallionplaya52 Finals MVPs really mean little to me. Of course the star of any team that wins it is probably going to get MVP. He was a good scorer, but he often scored at the expense of his team. 3x steals champ? You conveniently overlook that the Bulls D improved 4 ppg after his 1st retirement! Clearly his defensive rotation sucked and he overly gambled to pad his stats. He embarrassed superstars in the 80s? Bird beat Jordan 14x in a row (swept him from playoffs 2x) Isiah owned him. CONTD
FavreianVengeance 3 months ago