Napalm sent me to check this out as a good educational vid about rape. I have to agree - very interesting and thought provoking stuff. Morality is what sets humans apart from animals it seems - at times it seems almost at odds with biology.
Thanks for the reminder about the extent of rape between the demographic I associated it with. I suppose a correction would be that, whilst the desire for opportunistic sex might (!) be traced to reproductive opportunity, this desire might have something of a life of its own, potentially motivating behaviour which is unconnected to reproduction and involving victims such as the ones you list. Really good point, and I appreciate your making it.
@CityzenJane "Rape is not something relagated to young fertile women."
The problem with your argument is that you assume the motives for rape are even present in the conscious area of the rapist's mind. They're not, thats the whole point of Evolutionary Psychology. We are motivated by unseen forces, human nature, which is behavior hardwired into our brain. Just because this inner motive does not always distinguish between fertile women and others, does not disprove it exists.
I have been looking at the evolutionary context as well. Aside from being fascinating, it seems useful to examine the motivations for a behavior in order to address it properly. More useful than discussing what human rights women should be expected to surrender.
Thank you for this - the opportunism is something I need to think about a bit.
Some rapists cannot become sexually aroused unless their target is unwilling - how would this relate to opportunism?
1- This quantity/quality dichitomy comes from Trivers (1972) theory of parternal investement. And it's not about unbalanced reproduction capacity but about unbalanced ressources investment in offsprings.
@Ignare Reproductive capacity is not central in PIT, but it could be looked at as a limiting factor and therefore an important component of the investment. e.g. in a bird whose female is only physically capable of producing three eggs (not counting fledging, etc) that limit is certainly part of the investment she makes.
Also, spandrels are not exaptations but they can be if that spandrel then comes under positive selection.
What I don't get about all this is there are HOW many reproductive strategies in the wild...males that gestate, females that kill their mates, non hierarchy in pods and very stratified systems... Yet we always seem to find the one that describes our culture the way we imagine it is at any given time. These explanations change over time depending on how much the ind. explainer knows and how invested he is in the 'story'...I would like to write a meta analysis of this but..no time.
I haven't seen your video of that name, would you be prepared to share it with me?
I couldn't speak for the other male commentators but speaking purely personally I find it disturbing that people essentially the same as myself are capable of such acts of destruction. Too many men, I believe, see rapists as totally other and 'nothing like them', which seems like a convenient delusion.
I don't know...I think we can so slant our view of the world because we've seen psych studies in which for decades the majority of subjects were white college males between 18 and 21 who needed a little cash - including the Stanford Prison experiment.
You want to talk about WW11 sure a lot of people were capable of horrible acts including Jews trying to survive the camps - but a lot of people consistently acted in the interest of others without regard to their own safety.
didn't like this video much... I think you are exaggerating "rape" as a long term survival strategy ... I would argue we [men] are more disposed to kill each other than "harm" a woman. More "winners" in a "contest between men", than rapist, have defined our disposition.
I wasn't clear then. I don't think rape is a long term survival strategy (for our genes that is), and the fact that it is so rare and has no official place in even the most patriarchal of societies suggests that it doesn't play that big a part in the propogation of the species. In every society it is considered aberrant behaviour. What I was saying is that occasionally those males who engage in the much more successful strategy of opportunistic sex add violence to the mix.
How's rape rare? According to govt stats, one in six women will be raped (US); that's taking into account both false reporting and estimates of non-reports.
well, what i can make of rape is that males are driven to have offspring no matter what it takes to keep the species alive and going. So its nothing to be done about the mind and how its works the males are just working on instinct.
i have accepted your response tho it's not showing on your video yet.
when we talk about the differences between male and female reproductive patterns and that females need to look for quality - then being raped takes away their input into this equation and from our enlightened position this is inexcusable, on so many levels, so to talk about ancient biological motivations is irrelevent in the context of the discussion that TJ so confidently injected into (is a woman partially to blame)
That's kind of the point I was aiming at, although I did fall a long way short of it. I would say that ancient biological motivations might be the building blocks of modern desire, but are at best only indirectly related to human social relations and the morality that properly legislates them.
BS.. men also look at women and gauge their "genetic-fitness" ..
pixxi1983 2 months ago
other animals are animals
3HourHero 6 months ago
Beard and glasses.... good look for discussing this topic.
philylennon 1 year ago
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philylennon 1 year ago
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philylennon 1 year ago
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Evolutionary biology is fine, but we left that behind a long time ago, so as to account for all our motivations and actions.
Lordcontraindicator2 2 years ago
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Lordcontraindicator2 2 years ago
Napalm sent me to check this out as a good educational vid about rape. I have to agree - very interesting and thought provoking stuff. Morality is what sets humans apart from animals it seems - at times it seems almost at odds with biology.
Silkspine 2 years ago
good video
MensRifleAssociation 2 years ago
- babies get raped
-little boys get raped
-men in prison get raped
-grannies get raped
- mothers of sons get raped by sons
-daughters get raped by fathers...
the list goes on and on.
Rape is not something relagated to young fertile women.
All the evo bio discussions are at best not the whole story ESPECIALLY because only a tiny percentage of men actually rape.
I am so disappointed by the discussion around this topic.
CityzenJane 2 years ago 5
@CityzenJane
Thanks for the reminder about the extent of rape between the demographic I associated it with. I suppose a correction would be that, whilst the desire for opportunistic sex might (!) be traced to reproductive opportunity, this desire might have something of a life of its own, potentially motivating behaviour which is unconnected to reproduction and involving victims such as the ones you list. Really good point, and I appreciate your making it.
conferencereport 2 years ago
it is not universal in the sense that many cultures handle it differently and incidence is not stable across cultures...
CityzenJane 2 years ago
Valid point
conferencereport 2 years ago
@CityzenJane "Rape is not something relagated to young fertile women."
The problem with your argument is that you assume the motives for rape are even present in the conscious area of the rapist's mind. They're not, thats the whole point of Evolutionary Psychology. We are motivated by unseen forces, human nature, which is behavior hardwired into our brain. Just because this inner motive does not always distinguish between fertile women and others, does not disprove it exists.
SuddenCatharsis 1 year ago
I have been looking at the evolutionary context as well. Aside from being fascinating, it seems useful to examine the motivations for a behavior in order to address it properly. More useful than discussing what human rights women should be expected to surrender.
Thank you for this - the opportunism is something I need to think about a bit.
Some rapists cannot become sexually aroused unless their target is unwilling - how would this relate to opportunism?
durtygrrrl 2 years ago
1- This quantity/quality dichitomy comes from Trivers (1972) theory of parternal investement. And it's not about unbalanced reproduction capacity but about unbalanced ressources investment in offsprings.
2 - by-products (spandrels) are not exaptations
Ignare 2 years ago
@Ignare Reproductive capacity is not central in PIT, but it could be looked at as a limiting factor and therefore an important component of the investment. e.g. in a bird whose female is only physically capable of producing three eggs (not counting fledging, etc) that limit is certainly part of the investment she makes.
Also, spandrels are not exaptations but they can be if that spandrel then comes under positive selection.
LithodidMan 2 years ago
@Ignare
Thanks for the additions/corrections.
conferencereport 2 years ago
What I don't get about all this is there are HOW many reproductive strategies in the wild...males that gestate, females that kill their mates, non hierarchy in pods and very stratified systems... Yet we always seem to find the one that describes our culture the way we imagine it is at any given time. These explanations change over time depending on how much the ind. explainer knows and how invested he is in the 'story'...I would like to write a meta analysis of this but..no time.
CityzenJane 2 years ago 2
I have a video called "The Natural History of Rape...I've made it private now.
2bsirius 2 years ago
It's interesting to me that it's mostly men engaging in this discussion.
Hmmmm
2bsirius 2 years ago
@2bsirius
I haven't seen your video of that name, would you be prepared to share it with me?
I couldn't speak for the other male commentators but speaking purely personally I find it disturbing that people essentially the same as myself are capable of such acts of destruction. Too many men, I believe, see rapists as totally other and 'nothing like them', which seems like a convenient delusion.
conferencereport 2 years ago
Sure
2bsirius 2 years ago
I don't know...I think we can so slant our view of the world because we've seen psych studies in which for decades the majority of subjects were white college males between 18 and 21 who needed a little cash - including the Stanford Prison experiment.
You want to talk about WW11 sure a lot of people were capable of horrible acts including Jews trying to survive the camps - but a lot of people consistently acted in the interest of others without regard to their own safety.
CityzenJane 2 years ago
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@CityzenJane "but a lot of people consistently acted in the interest of others without regard to their own safety."
Evolutionary Psychology is not just about the individual, its about the group.
SuddenCatharsis 1 year ago
didn't like this video much... I think you are exaggerating "rape" as a long term survival strategy ... I would argue we [men] are more disposed to kill each other than "harm" a woman. More "winners" in a "contest between men", than rapist, have defined our disposition.
DoNotGod 2 years ago 2
@DoNotGod
I wasn't clear then. I don't think rape is a long term survival strategy (for our genes that is), and the fact that it is so rare and has no official place in even the most patriarchal of societies suggests that it doesn't play that big a part in the propogation of the species. In every society it is considered aberrant behaviour. What I was saying is that occasionally those males who engage in the much more successful strategy of opportunistic sex add violence to the mix.
conferencereport 2 years ago
How's rape rare? According to govt stats, one in six women will be raped (US); that's taking into account both false reporting and estimates of non-reports.
Bobbiethejean 2 years ago
The US Army has to work VERY VERY hard to take a young person and turn them into a killer. It does not come all that naturally.
CityzenJane 2 years ago 2
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@CityzenJane "The US Army has to work VERY VERY hard to take a young person and turn them into a killer. It does not come all that naturally."
Any proof of that? Killing comes very easily to human males. If you are a female, I understand your apprehension. You are hardwired differently.
SuddenCatharsis 1 year ago
@CityzenJane Of course it comes naturally. We've just learned to domesticate ourselves.
datlancboi018 11 months ago
well, what i can make of rape is that males are driven to have offspring no matter what it takes to keep the species alive and going. So its nothing to be done about the mind and how its works the males are just working on instinct.
DramaIama 2 years ago
i have accepted your response tho it's not showing on your video yet.
when we talk about the differences between male and female reproductive patterns and that females need to look for quality - then being raped takes away their input into this equation and from our enlightened position this is inexcusable, on so many levels, so to talk about ancient biological motivations is irrelevent in the context of the discussion that TJ so confidently injected into (is a woman partially to blame)
oojamaflipper 2 years ago 2
@oojamaflipper
That's kind of the point I was aiming at, although I did fall a long way short of it. I would say that ancient biological motivations might be the building blocks of modern desire, but are at best only indirectly related to human social relations and the morality that properly legislates them.
(And thanks for accepting the response.)
conferencereport 2 years ago