Dan Savage at U of Montana - Changing Gender Pronouns

[wmcassie21]

I like Dan generally but I really don't appreciate this. He didn't need to launch into an attack on people who attack others. And it's despicable for him to tell someone not to be a 'crazy tranny' or to say that he 'hates the pronoun game.' Those are not things you say if you are trying to be a good ally to the trans community.

[Fireflygamer]

The reason why in my opinion Dan should not use that word is because it still implies we are dirty sexual objects like tranny porn or a tranny hooker, and the prejudiced i face has been far worse in the gay community than it has been form the straight community. I have had far more gay people put me down because i dare to be a trans woman and a lesbian, apparently I'm not allowed in the club.

[Snoep76239]

"Cast-iron uterses in the basement from IKEA"

ROFL!!!

[Snoep76239]

God, why do people make such a big issue out of gender? People are who they feel they are, not what kind of plumbing they have....

[panikpapagei]

faggot, faggot, faggot...breeders, BREEDERS :D

gotta love dan~♥

but srsly be patient. with your allies and still with someone coming out and costantly blowing up. cause we've all been there, coming out of the closet, being super-protective with something nobody seems to understand& also something we thought it's the fundament to our personality. LGBT or straight, everybody was at this point somehow&later figured out that's just one point of a whole person one is.

love yourself the rest'll follow

[Fireflygamer]

@panikpapagei The difference is that when you are trans and someone calls you by the wrong pronoun its like pouring salt on an emotional wound, it physically hurts in your chest, its a reminder that you are not accepted. On top of that when you first transition your an emotional wreck, I was patient with people that made honest mistakes, but you need to be patient with us, we are doing one of the hardest things any human being can go through even with all the support in the world.

[texjoy86]

Ze goggles do nothink!

[sixtysac]

I will say this shit again. what a truly and utterly sad, useless, ignorant fool. I hate that this man is considered a voice for my community. it is one hundred percent the right and prerogative of every marginalized person to act against their oppressors in the way most empowering to them. THEIR ANGER IS JUSTIFIED AND IT IS NOT THEIR JOB TO BE APPROPRIATELY SEDATE TO MAKE YOU COMFORTABLE. you're not an ally unless the people you're a supposed ally to say you are. fuck off.

[poolerboy0077]

@sixtysac It's shocking to see someone call others "oppressors" for merely using gender binary pronouns when many transgender people conform to teh gender binary! One the one hand, they're against the gender binary and believe people should be themselves and not conform to societal ideas of what constitutes acceptable behavior for males and females. On the other, they seem to be going to great lengths to conform to just such an idea, rather than acting in a way that comes naturally to them.

[poolerboy0077]

@poolerboy0077 Lashing out at anyone and everyone who doesn't conform to such political correctness is going to willfully places themselves in a situation where they have no close friends because of their hostile attitude.

[TrueFriction]

@sixtysac I suppose it's a question of whether you care more about combating trans-phobia or feeling pleasantly self-righteous. Loosing your sh*t on a well-intentioned person who makes a slip or uses the wrong term by mistake is a sure-fire way to make sure that they don't actually listen to you and modify their behaviour for the next trans person they encounter. People don't respond to self-righteous anger. Do that next trans person a favour - have a "teachable moment" and don't be an a**hole.

[LatumWay]

I have totally had this exact same scenario. People blowing up at me for saying something accidentally.

Trans people - not to judge - but it takes time to get used to differing pronouns. Like Dan says. We are on your side.

[sixtysac]

On a side note, if you're my ally, USE CORRECT PRONOUNS.

[alexfjord]

<3 Dan



[kroschfoenigin]

Sorry if I haven't got a clue, but did he say "our kids"? Have they adopted another one?

[NicholasC27]

I'm trans and to be honest i just think there are a lot of transpeople who just need to calm the fuck down. People make mistakes, and if it is a mistake and not deliberate then you just need to chill. Transpeople are rare, we need to deal with that and not expect others to just know what our wants and needs are. If we are o educate them we need to do so calmly so that people will listen. No one will listen if they get angry trannies screaming about their rights, give respect to get respect.

[sixtysac]

what a truly and utterly sad, useless, ignorant fool. I hate that this man is considered a voice for my community. it is one hundred percent the right and prerogative of every marginalized person to act against their oppressors in the way most empowering to them. THEIR ANGER IS JUSTIFIED AND IT IS NOT THEIR JOB TO BE APPROPRIATELY SEDATE TO MAKE YOU COMFORTABLE. you're not an ally unless the people you're a supposed ally to say you are. fuck off.

[Babbachichuija]

@sixtysac: are you saying that it is justified to get angry with people who love you who make a genuine mistake that irks your identity politics?

I refer you to John Sholto Douglas' response to his father being an arsehole about something rather different, & I trust that you will be able to adjust the appropriate noun in that sentence so that it refers appropriately to yourself all on your lonesome.

[sixtysac]

@Babbachichuija As a matter of fact, yes. Making mistakes and being a douche bag are two separate things. Doing it constantly and making no effort to correct yourself is total douche-baggery. However, making mistakes is completely forgivable. "I hate the pronoun game" - that statement is an identity policing statement,and he later goes on to use the word "tranny". Which is completely acceptable, but only when referring to yourself. Not everyone is comfortable with that word.

[iiiiiifggffggffgfgfg]

All this Ze crap needs to stop. There's he, she and it. Pick one.

[kaosgoblin]

Changing one's pronouns is meaningless. If you were born a man, you are he, if you are born female, you are she. It is idiotic to get angry at anyone who uses language properly, as opposed to people who live in a fantasy world where they get to be angry if everyone else doesn't bend to their whims. Grow the fuck up.

[josidhe]

If you're going to invent your own unique pronoun just for you, it isn't a pronoun anymore; it's a nickname. Pronouns are necessarily generic and widespread in adoption by those who want to wear them. If you aren't making an effort to spread it to others like yourself, you aren't earning the right to hear it. And again, if it applies to you alone, a pronoun it is not. Sorry.

[zutandmerde]

What the actual fuck to playing off the use of that term with "I call myself a faggot hurr durr."

No. If someone transgendered chooses to reclaim that word, power to them, but it is not for cis people to reclaim.

That whole fucked up point is so reminiscent of white people whining that they can't use the N word.

That was a great point about forgiving pronoun slip-ups. Too bad it was clouded by such an awful slur.

[MamaMario13]

I like "schlee" from Futurama

[leoghaire1]

there is a gender neutral term-"it"

[soapboxboy]

I like hate terms too! Tranny needs to be reclaimed.

[CaraIain]

This is such a good point. It happens in EVERY activist/minority community, people blowing up at, and ultimately alienating their allies.

As to the new pronoun front...I'm ambiguous. Deep grammar words like pronouns are incredibly difficult, and resistant to change, more so than someone's name.

[afhdfh]

Making up your own, non-existent pronouns sounds like a crazy person to me.

[oshinsr]

Gosh, I love this man!

[SpadeHand]

That was good. That was really good.

[mrdarkavocado]

Amazing message in this one. Good job Dan. Love hearing your insight on things.

[canadianhumility]

Absolutely one of the best ones so far...!

[Elvishswimmer]

This was a great video :)

[abmindprof]

The last 3rd person pronoun to enter the language was "she," which came it in during the Middle Ages. It's not easy to cook up a new pronoun. Grammar is run on consensus that is mostly fixed during childhood. So you can live being upset about it or not.

[Sik15]

What a beautiful speech!

[MrJemmyJoe]

The continuing theme of Dan being a modern Miss Manners continues.

[MaryJesusJoseph]

He's so right. We get so wrapped up in words. Flying off the handle if somone uses the wrong word--one that was okay the week before. What happens is that people will just stop talking about gays or transexuals at all.

[dakoneko]

The exception being when it's going on two or three-plus years and they still "fuck up." Begin to question which side they're on, exactly.

[PereztiToaleay]

It's sexist on part of the person who asked the child with gay parents to ask " where is your mommy" the proper question is: Where are your parents?

[Ryushai]

@PereztiToaleay I think where are your parents is a much better answer, even if the kid has a mom...or two. Immediately throwing parenting responsibility to the mom kinda looks past the fact that men are responsible for their kids too.

[canuckkat]

I'm sorry, but people who fall under the gender binary (that is to say that they identify as male or female) blow up at you when you get their gender pronoun wrong, so what's wrong with all the other genders blowing up when you get their gender pronoun wrong?

Not saying blowing up is right, only that it's natural.

[extopiastudios]

I have observed that "guys" has become a unisex plural pronoun. I'm not as certain regarding the singular form...I have not observed it being used as frequently.

[AleaFails]

As a trans person, I am on the other side of this a lot. I've never blown up at anyone, in fact I might be too much of a pushover. You tell someone "Call me 'he'" and they say "Okay" but then never do. They say "Oh, what a nice name you picked" but then never use it. I try to patiently correct everyone but I can understand how it could build into a big annoyance for some people. So if a trans* person freaks out at you for messing up, it's not just you but the entire collective.

[dakoneko]

@AleaFails Absolutely. Like I posted earlier, you have to being to wonder whether your friends and family are truly on your side when ZERO effort is made on their part to ever meet you, at least, half way. It's one of the most annoying and painful things when after years of being yourself, the people you look to as family and friends still can't seem to be bothered to respect you for that. How do you deal with that?

[stevesusenet]

I wish I could vote this video up more than once. I've had a transgendered friend since college. I've been on the other end of those blow ups and the other end of anger at not getting a constantly changing vocabulary right. It isn't reasonable when you belong to a group that is a fraction of a percent of the population to expect everybody else to automatically know your special terms. They aren't doing it out of disrespect, they have lives to pay attention to.

[umusuuk]

Fucking all the time on Tumblr -.-

One thing that annoys me, but shouldn't because it's insensitive -- made up pronouns like ze and hir. English, motherfuckers.

[AleaFails]

@umusuuk But if someone is not a "he" or a "she", what should they do in your opinion?

[p2umpkin]

@umusuuk Because hey, only "men" and "women" deserve their own gender-specific pronouns. Fuck the "other" people! And also because language is a static, unchanging thing. The language we're speaking now is the only language there has ever been and is the same now as it was in the beginning. We have created no new words or terms or changed old terms in definition or form. :D

[abmindprof]

@p2umpkin You're doing exactly what Dan Savage spent most of that vid telling people not to do. Interesting.

[Elvishswimmer]

@abmindprof

I think you failed to notice the tongue-in-cheek

[CaraIain]

@p2umpkin Just wanted to add, that pronouns are a different type of word from nouns. We make up new lexical items all the time, and pronunciation does change...but one feature of language that is very resistant to change are deep grammar words, like pronouns. It's just the way language works, that feature is very resistant to change. I'm not saying it is impossible, but without a solid understanding of linguistics, it's hard to see just how difficult it is.

[NuclearB]

@umusuuk

Thank you. Honestly, the English lexicon should not be bothered by such a "word" that gets such minor use. What the Hell is its root? Does it have any sort of linguistic value other than a meaningless syllable? Forget that crap. Languages are machines. Don't muck up that machine. Never mind that it makes somebody feel as if they have carved out an identity free of the standard label(s). Having your own, special words is not healthy. It's practically autistic.

[iluvspikyhair]

@umusuuk Yeah, English is kind of the problem, because there aren't widely accepted singular gender neutral pronouns.

My respect for Dan Savage is plummeting by the day, honestly. You're cis, you don't get to call people crazy trannies. It's not your hate term. And, er, you've been a shitty ally to trans* people. It isn't the job of the erased minorities to be warm and fuzzy and respectful to people who aren't respecting them when they do. Hurtful. Things.

[mrdarkavocado]

@iluvspikyhair I say that it is the job of everyone everywhere to represent themselves the best way they can and to educate others as friendly as possible. No, it isn't easy swallowing pain for the sake of that education, but it's something all minorities have to do because anger gets us nowhere. But Dan isn't even talking about that. He's talking about forgiving accidents and letting things slide by. And he's right.

Perhaps not about his ironic use of hate terms, but otherwise a good message.

[CaraIain]

@iluvspikyhair You are wrong. Dan Savage and all his listeners stand up for trans rights all the time. We support trans rights by voting for people who are pro-trans rights. So stop spending your energy harassing people who agree with you on 75% of what you say, and start harassing people who actually hate trans people and want them to suffer. It's not like there's a shortage of actual monsters out there who wish you real harm. We're all in this together.

[iluvspikyhair]

@CaraIain "Dan Savage stands up for trans rights all the time." That was a good joke, let's have another.

[CaraIain]

@iluvspikyhair Isn't he standing up for trans rights here? Supporting their decision to be called by a different pronoun? Hasn't he advised readers interested in trans-people on how to go about finding love within the trans-community? Didn't he recently devote a long section of his podcast to the wife of a transgendered man, the author of books on the subject?

What a shit ally he is. But it looks to me like you're the only one shitting all over your allies, not Dan.

[CaraIain]

@iluvspikyhair here's another for you, go listen to this week's podcast, more advice for transmen.

Seriously, quit shitting on allies. Not a good way to make new friends, or attract people to the cause.

[iluvspikyhair]

@CaraIain THIS MOVEMENT IS NOT ABOUT THE ALLIES. It's not about making friends, either. So if the "allies" are fucking up and SHITTING ON THE PEOPLE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE HELPING, I'm not fucking catering to them.

[CaraIain]

@iluvspikyhair what's it about then? Changing the law? getting people to treat you better? Good luck with that behaviour. You know changing your circumstances means convincing people you deserve to be treated decently, right? I'm having a civil debate with you and you're freaking out and swearing. Screaming at people undermines you and your cause.

[dafttool]

I liked that reference about "parenting your parents." I've used that advice to people dealing with reluctantly supportive parents. And the fact is, that as you & your parents age, your roles do eventually reverse anyway.