To the Thai government: Please stop trying invading and taking lands from Cambodia, Cambodia is already a small country, compared to big area Thailand. All we want is peace and not repeating errors and mistakes from the past.
@ichibang15549 Dickhead. GO read your history or ask the elders. I dont care Where Muay Thai came from anymore, as everybody knows where the Siam were originated from, and where they stole their cultures from. BUT they should respect the Khmer people today and enough with the STEALING and killing innocent Khmer.
@babibump stole? lol do you even realise how unoriginal khmer culture is? do you even know that that the khmer empire consisted of many kingdoms of many peoples? did you also know that the first Tai kingdom in SEA was before your empire even existed? sure there are a few things we got from khmers like say the script. That we know. Everything else such as indianisation, religion, art etc we got from Mon Dvaravati. You don't even know what that is do you? the history you know is propaganda.
@KensaiZen Khmer Empire was considered the greatest Empire during its time with a population of 1 million (big number back then) unless you have other sources confirmation its false?
@babibump the only reason why its called the khmer empire is because when the french rediscovered Angkor. The only people in the Area were khmer. Thus Angkor was attributed to Khmers. This was how long ago? based on french assumptions and not proper historical research. The population that lived/worked in Angkor consisted of Mon, Tai, Cham, Khmer. All the ethnics of SEA living together. Who was the ruling class? its not hard to figure.
@KensaiZen I see that you are only interested in trolling. Good luck trying to convince the world, hopefully one day they will stop stealing other cultures and lands, maybe one day you can also teach our own people not to steal from us. en(.)wikipedia(.)org/wiki/List_of_Thai_Monarchs (check out the date of your kings-1239 and compare that to our first Queen Soma -100, not Trosok Peam -1336 or Zhou -1219)
@babibump lol Queen Soma was not Khmer. She was Cham. Naga princess. Champa = Nokor Nagari. Where does it say anywhere that she was Khmer? The whole FuNan creation myth about Kaundinya and soma first appeared in Champa :) First ever "Khmer" king RECORDED appeared after 1336. Everything earlier is just an assumption that they were Khmer based on french alteration of historic records. you've already closed your mind to evidence. FuNan was definitely not a khmer kingdom.
@babibump and heres another history lesson, khmers are not indigenous to SEA. Your people also migrated into the area. The original people were austroneasean like the Malay and Chams. The kingdom of Funan was not a khmer kingdom. Khmers took over Funan and adopted the culture. You young khmers have been brainwashed by the BS propaganda. Start researching into your history and the history and culture of Thai people, then you will know the truth.
@KensaiZen Dude. I dont care anymore. All im saying is tell the Siems to stop killing and steal from our people. Since you seems to know your history, what do you think of the recent border dispute Preah Vihear?
@babibump the whole situation is BS. the original agreement between Siam and france agreed on a different border. Using a new map which was not contested for a long time is still breaking the original agreement. If I built a house on your land and you didnt say anything about it for 20 years, does it make it my land now?. Though im happy to let cambodia have preah vihear, you guys need it a lot more then we do.
@KensaiZen Yes, I agree the whole situation is BS. This is all a political game. Hun Sen, 30 years in ruling, got his own agenda, and he is killing the nation for his own luxury lifestyle. I believe you are also refering to the MOU 2000 Paris act. To me, I dont care of we have Preah Vihear or not, Hun Sen will only be rackless with it, just like with the Ankor Wat. Ankor Wat belongs to the Khmer people, yet, its is being managed by the Vietnamese Parties along with many businesses in Khmer.
@babibump no the original agreement was during 1907 when the border was agreed to be the watershed line. This agreement was broken when a different map was used moving that border deeper into Thai territory so that preah vihear and surrounding area was under cambodian territory. Thailand said nothing for a long time and so ICJ says its ok for cambodia to have it. I mean wtf... if you break an agreement, how is it legit to hold on to the territory?
@KensaiZen Speaking of the Khmer Empire, I still strongly believe that you Siem stole many things from us. Looking back at when Khmer Empire was once great, the map shows us many thing, and today, our nation is getting smaller and smaller, thanks to Hun Sen for selling out the country. I agree with you about our heritage and according to the Wikipedia. But like i said, the Siems stole many things from us, our culture and our lands. Have you spoken to Khmer Surin and learnt anything from them?
@babibump what your map doesn't show you is the kingdoms that formed the khmer empire. The maps you people see is a map of the empire and not of the peoples and kingdoms which made up the territory. Khmer culture centered around the area of Cambodia present day. Towards the N and NE were predominantly Tai, West was Mon, East was Cham. When Angkor was sacked the Tai indeed took things from khmer culture. These things were retaught back to khmers later on by the Siamese, such as royal dance
@KensaiZen Yes, i think you are right, indeed, the Siems stole many things including the cultures then retaught back to the Khmer people claiming they own it, isn't that the definition of stealing? If our Map of the Khmer Empire is wrong and only spreading false propaganda, can you share us your accurate version?
@babibump what was retaught to khmers is the siamese version of khmer culture. If you look into it you will see that it is different to Angkorian art and culture. Basically Angkorian>Siamese>post Angkor khmer. Why does post Angkor khmer culture look so similar to Siamese and not Angkorian? its obvious. Same thing with Indian culture and khom culture, they took indian culture and turned it into their own. Is this stealing?
@KensaiZen From what i understand of the Indian culture is that back then, they were one of the four kingdoms along with the Khmer Empire, and Siem was just a small tribe(forest) before our Empire took them in and protected them and taught them our culture. The Indian culture, sankrits, religions and buddha teaching were popular back in the days thus great influence all over Asia. But you Siem took our land, cultures and many things and claims you invented those, that is stealing.
@babibump That however is propaganda. Singanuwat nakorn aka yonok nakorn chai buri sri chiang saen is recorded to date 545BC the Tai/Siem were already in the area with our own kingdom almost 1000 years before khmers appeared in history. Siam/Tai is more akin to Mon culture than khmer hindu. No doubt there were influences as but to think the Tai/siem were illiterate are uncivilised before khmer contact is ridiculous.
@KensaiZen It indeed is hard to prove, evidences are there. I wouldnt say the Siems were illiterate or uncivilised during the Khmer Empire, but that is disputable dont you agree? Dont forget that we were once also mountain/jungle tribes before we became a great empire. I have yet to see any evidence that Siem had its own Kingdom of 1000 years without the help of the Khmer Empire. i hope you are not blind.
@babibump My friend you need to research into Tai history and culture. Of course the Tai had to learn khmer script during the empire, seeing as it was the standard script of the government, that is pretty normal even in todays world. No one disagrees that We learned the khmer language. It is even written in Thai history that the script is based of khom (khmer) script. Though indianisation already happened during the Chiang Saen era and continued after it.
@KensaiZen All research indicated that Siem stole our cultures and our land. lol. But i will keep researching as i enjoy reading. Not sure you keep bringing up indianisation, as i already agreed to your statement. If you think the Siem only took the language from us, and not the land and culture and many things, i think you need to open your mind, evidences are there, you just need to see it. you know its more then just language.
@babibump like i said. The only part of the land that belonged to khmers is the parts originaly occupied by Chenla. The lands that were not did not belong to khmers. 70% of Thailand is situated on Mon Dvaravati land. How did we take a land that did not belong to you? culture wise? there are khmer cultural aspects we did take, we already acknowledge it. I think you are obviously overlooking the Mon cultural influence on Thai culture.
Can you share us your link of the land the Siam occupied before and after the Khmer Empire? From what i can see, the Siam have very much taken a large chunks of the lands. Now claiming they never took our land or the culture. I prefer to listen to your history lesson but i really want you to see that the Siem stole many things from us as i have mentioned before. If Khmer language was standard, isnt possible Khmer influence had a greater impact then Indianasation/Mon influence, during and after?
@KensaiZen "There is evidence that these principalities may comprise many cultural groups of people, including Malays and Khmers. The theory of Thai migration into Dvaravati has been refuted and is now known to have happened much later."
@babibump Of course, Tai were not the original people of Dvaravati. They were the Mon. Angkorian empire spread westwards and conquered Mon Dvaravati. Tai power base at the time was further north in Chiang Saen. Later years the power base would move down into Mon power base ie central Thailand. But it shows that khmers were never the real owners of the land, so how can Thai steal khmer land? Thai are coexisting with Mon in Thailand.
@KensaiZen We never established who the owners of the land was, i thought that quote should be of interest to you, since you suggested the map supports your arguments that the Siems were around 1000 years before the Khmer Empire. Again, we can debate who the real owners were, and we know that there many races in that area, and the Siem came later on in the period, so this supports my arguments that the Khmer Empire had greater influence in the regions.
@babibump errr no it doesn't. The map only supports the fact that the land in question was not originaly part of the khmer sphere of power. Thus you cannot claim something which is not yours. Or has the khmer suddenly turn into Mons? lol Like I said. The theory of Tai migrating from Yunnan after the fall of Nanchao has been proven FALSE. You can forget about that way of thinking. Tai have been in SEA since prehistoric times. Ban Chiang <-- 4000BC
@KensaiZen I dont have much knowledge about the history of the Mon people. From my knowledge is that the Mon people were quite close to the Siem living in the same (northern) area. Did they ever fight each other? Is that why the Khmer Empire took you in? Surely, their cultures and land no longer exist because of the invaded wars.
@KensaiZen I have somewhat heard of the theories. From my understanding of it is that, during that time, there were different type of tribes and different types of (Khmer). One of them is the Khom people from the mountain area.
@KensaiZen Another evidence that the Siem stole our lands and our culture is Suryavarman II, one of the King from the Khmer Empire. Who was one of the greatest King we ever had, one of the biggest achievement is the Ankor Wat (Khmer built), so if he is one of the Greatest King we ever had, and having built a great empire, why would his home town be Lopburi in Thailand? It couldnt have been that he was Siem, could it? If it doesnt make sense, its not true. Siem took our land and culture.
@babibump interesting you mention that. Add me to your friends list so i can show you something. Too long to type in here. But basically, The ruling class of the empire were not even khmer. They didn't speak the same language as the people. Before the french discovered Angkor, the portuguese got there first. They asked the locals who built it. The locals said "foreigners". There is some indication that the people who "planned" the building of Angkor were not khmer. Khmers were the slaves.
@KensaiZen The article you sent to my inbox is silly. Most of the theories were abit twisted such as the ruling Empire wasnt Khmer, yet its called the Khmer Empire, yes? As with the language, as there were many different types of Khmer back then, they also have their own dialect, accent and language, even as today, theres why there are Khmer Surin (Northern Khmer), Khmer Khrom (Bottom Khmer). The Siem language were scripted and acknowledge it came from Khmer as we all know.
@babibump Khrom and Khom is assumed to be the same. Archaic Khom language and modern Khmer language is worlds apart. How can you base the meaning of the word from a modern khmer word? Ancient khom is sanskrit based. If the word did not have sanskrit origin it was not used during that period ESPECIALLY in royal use. Siem script came from Khom script. Is Khom Khmer? this is what we are trying to prove.
@KensaiZen Khrom and Khom is assumed to be the same? I think you are getting silly with your information and looking in the wrong direction again. My above points was just proving that there were different types of Khmer back then and still is today. Khmer Khrom which basically means Khmer Vietnamese, no need to bring up Sankrit scripts. LOL.
@KensaiZen Also, Yes, i have heard similar story that the portiguese may have discovered us, but the french colonized Cambodia for awhile before we gained our interdependency. If you have ever visited Ankor Wat or talked to the locals, you will know that during the Khmer EMpire, Ankor Wat and the surrounding temple were covered by rivers, water, one way is to travel was by boat.
@babibump Zhou Daguan the only real source of information about the people and hiearchy of Angkor writes some very interesting things about the populace and the ruling class. I suggest you read what he wrote. I have, and its quite incredible when I compared it with my research.
@KensaiZen Thanks for bringing up his name, wow, his account of the 1266–1346 Khmer kingdom is amazing. Its incredible how his experience can be shared with us today. But once again, that account only provide information of the Khmer kingdom, which doesn't correlate with your arguments about the Siem. It only goes to show that the Khmer kingdom was rich and beautiful. Which is what we all know.
@babibump Thats just it. Was it really the Khmer empire? or was it actually the Khom empire. This is the issue. The empire is named after Khmers because Angkor is found in Khmer territory in present day. Khmers populate the area today, but were they the only population in that time. Silly french assumption based history. Does not include the idea of ethnic displacement even though throughout the recorded history there was massive civil war and even a slave rebellion.
@KensaiZen To simply put, all accounts of the Siem history are connected to the Khmer Empire. If we refer back to the map Jayavarman VII had great influence over the region and even prior Kings. Siems were uncivilized tribes before they were influenced by the Khmer Empire. We taught you language, culture and history and even Muay Thai. One theories from speaking to the elders and monks is that we also taught the Siem fighting techniques (Muay Thai, Bokator) and ancient weaponries (Forks, Bamboo)
@babibump Siems were uncivilised? where is the proof? this is just pure assumption. taught language? Khom is not khmer, we do not speak khmer. All the Words we share in commen all have a sanskrit root. Siamese do not speak a word of original Khmer. Bokator as taught by san kim saen has been found to be a fabrication and is fake. But like I keep mentioning, is the Khmer actually the Khom? Khmers were the slave of Khom, how can you teach what is not yours?
@KensaiZen Like i said, I think you are digging the wrong information. Information can be overwhelming if you are not careful. From research and history, its called the Khmer Empire and not the Khom Empire, yes? Have you heard of the story about the Phnom Kulen? I have read the Siem history, they only emerged during and after the Khmer Empire mainly in the 1301 onward.
@KensaiZen Siems were uncivilised and were just tribes. Proof is in front of your eyes. Where were their civilizations during the Khmer Empire from the 900 onward? Like i said, i spoke to many Khmer elders, as they have explained it, one theories was that we taught you Siems many art forms, one of them was Muay Thai, but you can claims you invented it, as its now hard for us to prove it. Just dont be surprised once you found the connection. You seemed a bit shocked by everything.
@KensaiZen I think i gave you enough information. Its hard to swallow the truth but soemtime, you have toconsider the possiblity that its the truth. and Truth can be hurtful, as it is our human nature. Now with Muay Thai and Bokator, do some research on it, Im sure you can find sources and its origins. Muay Thai emerged only in the recent centuries yet there were considered ancient art form yes? Bokator, also ermeged in the recent years but yet, many sources suggesting its from the 800.
@babibump lol which sources are those? reliefs on angkor wat? those only show a few techniques of a fighting style. The "grandmaster" of bokator san kim saen is a fraud lol he invented a new art combining hapkido and pradal serey. The origin of the word bokator doesnt even mean beating a lion with a stick. it is the art of twin stick fighting. The origin of the word is sanskrit, not khmer.
@KensaiZen Less talk, more sources, might help us to come to a conclusion. Have you found anymore info on Muay Thai or Muay Boran. You do know that Boran is a Khmer word, yes? Found anymore connection yet, are you satisfied with what you know?
Is Khmer actually the Khom people? Or were Khmer people just slave? Is this based on your information you send to my inbox? lol. Can you send me some sources?
@KensaiZen Seems like im now teaching you about histroy instead of you teaching me. Anyway about the Forks, its an ancient weapon. Swords, axe, forks, bamboo were mainly used during the war. If you ever have a chance to look at the Ankor Wat and the pictures depicted on the monuments and others, you can see fork as one of the weapons. One theories from speaking to the elders is that, our Empire crumbled because fork was slow and hard for soldiers, unlike swords fast and easy to master.
@babibump The fork is hindu/indian of origin and was predominately a ceremonial weapon rather than one used for war. Your empire crumbled because of the fork? thats absurd. Weapon technology evolved as time wen't on. people will not keep using a weapon they know would not work. They would adapt to use the sword and other weapons. This whole theory is flawed from step 1. I've seen the Angkor bas reliefs btw :)
@KensaiZen "One theories from speaking to the elders is that, our Empire crumbled because fork was slow" Hint hint. All these information are overwhelming, and you are not looking at the my words carefully. I never said i found any found to support my conclusion, this theories came from discussing with the elders and monks.
@babibump lol my elders and monks will say something different. So who is lieing? see my point? There actually is a recorded Chronicles of cambodia written by a Khmer king nak ong eng. There are two version so this, a Thai one and a french one. The Thai translation of it shows that the line of Khmer kings BEGAN after the last Varman king. The french has somehow manage to make it out that Khmer kings go back all the way to FuNan without evidence. just a claim.
@babibump If you take both versions and match the time line and events. This is the real history. We have to discard the bits that do not match up because we do not know if it is a fabrication created for nationalistic purposes. The original document was destroyed by the khmer rouge, but this is a khmer chronicle, written by a Khmer king. So who you going to believe? the king at that point in history or your elders? your elders probably don't even know such a document exists lol
@KensaiZen "Ayuthaya was a Siamese kingdom that existed from 1350 to 1767. Dvaravati began to come under the influence of the Khmer Empire and central Thailand was ultimately invaded by the Khmer king Suryavarman II in the first half of the 12th century.Thai migration into Dvaravati has been refuted and is now known to have happened much later." Look at the timeline. Is it possible that these information are false?
@babibump Yonok nakorn sri chiang saen 545BC is the northern region of Dvaravati. If Tai migration into Dvaravati came later... explain the archaeological EVIDENCE of this TAI kingdom. It is very possible that information is false as it is based on assumption. SEA was populated by Mon, Tai, Cham and Khmer. Ban Chiang the proto Tai culture is dated 4000BC does this not show that Tai people were in the area?
@KensaiZen LOL Tai Culture dated 4000BC? Wow.. thats a load of bullcrap. You seem to have found strong evidence of their existence (Share us your source), yet, i have never seen any strong evidence prior to 1300, which is after the Khmer Empire crumbled. So, if the Khmer Empire had a population of a million, what was the population of the Siem dated back to 4000BC? 1?
@babibump but now if you look at it from another source. The prehistoric site of Ban Chiang. Scholars have agreed that these people spoke a ancient form of the Tai language. Not Khmer. This ancient site already blows away all previous thoughts about life in SEA. The prehistoric people already knew how to cultivate rice, metal working etc look it up. If they were of the Tai stock, how is it that Tai are considered as hill tribe? uncivilised? Tai history goes back thousands of years.
@babibump now if the Tai migration into Dvaravati is refuted and false. Can you explain Chiang Saen? it predates dvaravati. Dvaravati itself consists of many smaller kingdoms. Of which Tai are present towards the north. You can tell by the names of the kingdoms.
@KensaiZen "No reliable written history of the city exists until the arrival of King Mengrai in the 13th century." Chiang Saen. To put it in short, looking at the date in question, Chianf Saen, Ban Chaing, Mon Dvaravati, evidence doesnt prove much to support your arguments. During the Khmer Empire, the Siems were a bunch of tribes to the north before the Khmer Empire took you in, as scripted Dvaravati was under the influence of the Khmer EMpire dated back to the 10th century.
@babibump no reliable? the history of chiang saen was written on palm leave dating the arrival and founding of Singhanuwat nakorn as 545BC This is recorded history with a date. Is this more or less reliable then bas reliefs? the term siem was the chinese way of saying Suphan for the people of Suphanaphum or Svarnabhumi which is a Mon kingdom. This is also recorded. The empire did not exist at this time. Siems were not a jungle tribe people.
@KensaiZen Im going by according to my research, unless you can show me your sources? Siems were uncivilized jungle tribes, because they had little cultures and needed protection, thus why the Khmer Empire took you in and taught our our history. We were once jungle tribes too. The term siems, was our way of saying you were from the north tribe, and later on the term siem was used as thefts, after you stole our history and culture.Jayavarman II was Khmer, if he was Khom or Siem, then it'd sense.
@babibump "There was no Muay Thai in the first place there were only “Muay” anybody could learn no matter what he is Thai, Lao, Khmer, Burma. Thai didn’t own the art it universal. Thai put the word “Thai” to separete Muay from Boxing(Thai call “Muay Sakol” mean International Muay) or clarify that Muay Thai is originated from Thailand, please you guy kindly help me by showing any evidences of which state that Muay Thai is even older than the relief carving on the 13th century"
@babibump Muay Thai is called Muay Thai because it is the Thai version of Muay (boxing) There are also muay Lao, Muay Bama, Muay whatever, it just simply means the boxing of that country. There are no records of muay thai older than the "reliefs which show only a few techniques of a fighting style" in angkor. To base an entire fighting system on a few techniques is assumption based history again. Burmese lethwei is also similar to Muay thai and predates Angkor reliefs by almost 900 years.
@KensaiZen Wrong. Why dont we just assume that during the khmer Empire (900) we taught you Muay Boran and other art forms, before your government decided that you own the artist art form, would that make better sense? As we know the Siems were just uncivilized jungle tribes that had no army and needed protection.
@babibump once again you revert back to siems being a jungle tribe. where is your evidence? I have already shown you proof that the siem in question were the Mon people and that they were civilised. Ignoring facts now are we? Khmers are not Khom, there was no khmer empire lol
@babibump where is it enscribed that it was a "Khmer" empire? we are using modern assumptions and attaching them to Ancient records. Jayavarman was the ruler of the empire. Was it ever a "khmer" empire? nothing really indicates that it was "khmer"
@KensaiZen Using Modern assumption to the Siem it means, Lies and properganda. LOL. Come on buddy, im not here to feed your troll, everything i have provided you are facts and strong evidence. Most of your claims are just plain stupid. In fact, i thougth you were smarter then this, i prefer to see you as a smart person, but you are obviously overlooking many accounts and misguided with many information. Btw, are you Leeporter, because your writting pattern is quite similar.
@babibump which facts are these? you have said siem were a jungle tribe and were illiterate. So far you have shown me nothing. You said khmer kings go far back as FuNan. I have shown you evidence that say they do not. You have shown me a list of kings based on the assumption that they were khmer, when the royal khmer source say they were not. oh btw Im not leeporter lol I stumbled across his post when I tried looking for khmer historical records.
@babibump@babibump Chinese records for that period used the word "sem" for the Mon of suphanbhumi. "sem" from the word suphan from the word gold. Suphanabhumi was a great kingdom. Modern assumption for siem as you yourself know makes them out to be jungle tribes <--- where is the source for this?. Now you tell me which one is propaganda? enough said really. Why bother to even try to follow historic sources when your mind is already made up?
@KensaiZen Have you found or mapped out how many kings and kingdoms you had yet? if you are stuck and need guidance, im here to help. Its okay to admit that the Siems were thefts and still are. Nothing can change the past.
@babibump it clearly shows from your comments that your mind has already been made up that siems are thieves, even when shown proof and historical records about your own people and history. How about i begin with the first Tai king in SEA Singhanuwat? or if we go for siem kings, here is one that was recorded In AD 1054 manu haw was kidnapped by the burmese king Anawratha. Once again, this is recorded history. Where is your evidence to say otherwise?
@babibump If you would map out the lineage of Mon kings that would be great. Im sure the experience will teach you something about your jungle tribe people lol it would also show they actually recorded history, oh wait, they possibly couldn't do that since they were illiterate until they met khmers lol oh please.
@babibump Siem is the word the chinese recorded for the kingdom of suphanabhumi (svaranabhumi) They were Mon people. Their kingdom was not in the jungle, they had their own language and culture, they are more ancient than khmers, they lived in walled cities. Where on earth did you get that Siem were jungle poeple? the baseless assumption from the bas relief at Angkor? lol come on, you got to do better than that lol siem is not a Khmer word. The origin is sanskrit. Khmers didn't speak sanskrit.
@KensaiZen Stealing from the Mon people and stealing the Mon kingdom and claiming the Siem owns them is called STEALING. Here is another facts for you, since you lack resources and information. "Mon inscriptions from the Dvaravati kingdom's ruins also litter Thailand. However it is not clear if the inhabitants were Mon, a mix of Mon and Malay, or Khmer. Later inscriptions and kingdoms like Lavo were subservient to the Khmer." Ancient Speak didnt speak sanskrit? LOL silly boy.
@babibump once again... all this "khmer empire" is under the assumption that the rulers of the empire were Khmer. You have overlooked your own kings records stating that your "empire" didn't begin till after 1336. Khom is not Khmer. This is a creation of the french. It is actually pretty clear what the inhabitants were lol where is your source from? oh and btw the eye witness accounts say that the language of the ruling class and the common people were not the same. What language do you speak?
@KensaiZen I keep proving you facts, yet you keep saying its propganda blaming the french. What lauguage do i speak? I speak English to be more precisely. LOL. Here is another fact. "The beginning of the era of the Khmer Empire is conventionally dated to 802 AD. In this year, king Jayavarman II had himself declared chakravartin ("king of the world", or "king of kings") on Phnom Kulen."
@KensaiZen It seems like you need to learn about the Siem history then you will understand where and when the inhabitants were and why you stole our culture and our land.
@babibump Yes thats right, Khmers didn't speak sanskrit. Khom spoke sanskrit. You seem to be under the illusion your people are the same people as the Khom lol This is why its so hard for you to see it from a different perspective. Zhou Da Guan wrote the rich people owned 100 slaves whilst not so rich owned at least 20. Now which group of peoples genetics do you think would be the dominant group in present day Cambodia? the minority masters, or the majority slaves? simple logic.
@babibump Like I've mentioned before, the whole assumption of the empire belonging to Khmers is that there is only trace of a Khmer people in the area. Thus it was named Khmer empire. If the ruling class spoke a different language to the people and they spoke sanskrit... what language did the people speak? again, simple logic.
@KensaiZen Look i know you are smart, but most of your logics are no better then a 5th grader. All i suggest is that you look at all evidence in question before you make your conclusions. You cant blame the french for changing the history, because many countries also supports their finding (CHina, Loas, Vietname). Can you finally show me your source as where was the Siem Empire during the Khmer Empire from 900 onward? Or were they only ever good at stealing other cultures and kingdoms?
@babibump yes, simple logic that even a 5th grader would understand. History is not complicated if you use facts and evidence. Now lets think if the siem weren't the Mon to the west of the empire. Who were they and where were they? show me your evidence :)
@KensaiZen History is always complicated, only the Siems says history is easy to understand, because they write history according to what they know. en(.)wikipedia(.)org/wiki/Ruler_of_Cambodia. Show me records of your kings and kingdom?
@babibump you think that list is real? lol like i showed you. Your own chronicles of cambodia written "by your own Khmer king" starts after the Varman line ended. How then does it go back all the way to FuNan? lol so you believe the history written by the french and not that written by your own king. lol well done you.
@KensaiZen No, there are traces of the Khmer Empire all over the ruins. Even your country still has traces of our kingdom. the reason why the ruling classes spoke different language is because we have different group of Khmer, even in todays society. Different dialect, different accent, different tone.
@babibump like i said. You are confusing khmer with Khom. The Khom were the rulers of the Empire. Sanskrit is not a dialect of Khmer nor is Khmer a dialect of Sanskrit. Completely different language with a completely different linguistic history and origin.
@babibump en(.)wikipedia(.)org/wiki/Ruler_of_Cambodia. Ruler of Cambodia, from the first Queen to todays King. Can you also show me how many kings you had or records of the kings you had, im sure you are able to show me, since you are full on info.
@babibump lol so your basing your facts on assumption based history? like I said. The recorded beginning of your "Chronicles of Cambodia" written by a cambodian king BEFORE the french arrival says the first KHMER king began AFTER the varman line of kings. Are you calling your king a lier? if so, why would he write such a thing and not take the glory of the Varman line?
@KensaiZen I dont think the french can map out and records all the kings and rulers of Cambodia without support of other countries, unless you Siems think you can. Can you Map me a history of the Siem rulers and kingdom?
@babibump I've shown you that the name "siem/sem" is associated with Suphanaphum. Mentioned in very old Buddhist writings. However the first confirmed historical settlement was in the Dvaravati period, when the city was known as Mueang Thawarawadi Si Suphannaphumi. Its founding did take place 877-882.
You probably wouldn't believe anything I tell you anyway lol So i suggest you research it yourself.
@babibump you don't THINK they can, but they have lol your basing this on an assumption that the french have not corrupted history. It has already been proven that their version of Khmer history is fabricated. Your people has been fed their lies for centuries. This is probably why its so hard for you to think any differently. Too much pride. No one wants to see their people as slaves. But the truth is the truth.
@babibump the empire took over the area during the 10th century, but this shows that the people of the mekong delta were already civilised with fortifed cities, language, religion and culture. They were not jungle tribes as you are led to believe. Siem are Mon people makes sense because Mon people are also dark skinned o.O
@KensaiZen Anyway here is a random facts that might be of interest to you. Due to the country land concession policy under the current government of Hun Sen, over 50%(2007) of the Khmer land has been "sold" to private investors. This very much means, Khmer doesnt have much of a future if we have no land or no jobs. As you may also know that, many Khmer are now seeking works as maids in Malaysia, (50,000 maid), and with thousands of families are evicted (forced) from their home and land.
@babibump Now as you can see from that map. The area that Thailand currently holds is mainly on Dvaravati land. like I said, the main power base of khmers is a long the tonle sap which is much further to the east. To actually have an empire that spans so many kingdoms, you had to conquer the people already there. They won't just give you their land lol that notion is absurd. The western mentality of "we came to civilise you" does not work on a people with firmly established culture.
@babibump if you research into Mon dvaravati and check the Map you will see the territory that wasn't originally khmers. The map of Chenla empire can be considered the origin of the khmer empire. Anyhting outside Chenla was conquered by the khmer to create the khmer empire. To the west was Mon Dvaravati and Lavo, Northern regions were the Tai kingdoms. Singhanuwat nakorn aka yonok nakorn chaiburi sri chiang saen is dated 545BC. We were already in the area before khmers invaded.
@babibump also you have to look at it at a religious and linguistic angle to also trace it. Western khmer empire were not Hindu's. They were Brahmin and Buddhists. The names of the cities were also important to understand the ancient kingdoms. Mon and Tai kingdoms place more importance on certain dieties and khmers different ones. Actually ive stumbled on to something which is even more incredible regarding the origin of the kampuchea in SEA.
@KensaiZen You are on the right track about the Khmer blood and origins, I have have also found similar story. If you have anything you can share, give me some links, i like reading and watching our history. Last few days of debate, seems like our only different is that you dont accept that the Siems were thefts back in the Khmer Empire days. Whats your theories on why the Khmer Empire crumbled?
@babibump The khmer empire was just too vast. It required too much resources to maintain. Such a big area could not be held by the Military forces available.Tai numbers were reinforced by the last migration of Tai from Yunnan and had sufficient military power now to break from khmer overlords. Khmer resources were spread too thin and too far away from khmer powerbase to prevent it. a culmination of Tai numbers increasing, khmer miss handling of resources (building too many temples) discontent
@babibump beacuse of the fact the empire consisted of many kingdoms, once one kingdom regained independence, the others would likely follow. Tai's are very much a warrior race (as recorded since ancient times by the chinese and the Tai's constantly warring history) with sufficient numbers it was inevitable they would break free from the empire and ultimately destroy it.
@KensaiZen Once again, I agree it concur with my research, but it still proves that you Siems had nothing to start with and our Kingdom took you in before you started stealing from us. I believe one of the King entrusted one of his sons to look after the Siem tribe to teaching them our way of life and our culture by giving you shelter/protection. Over the years the son became independents so was his military force. As a result and years of wars, Siem looted the remains our culture as seen today.
@babibump care to share which part of your research shows this? which prince in which century? I know through history khmer kings have given refuge to Tai princes and even gave one an army to conquer some territory and established his own kingdom, but that came at a much later time than. The first time Siam looted Angkor was 1431AD Looking at the ruins of Chiang Saen, Indianisation had already begun over 1000 years prior.
@KensaiZen I cant remember bro, but it was along that line somewhere. Thats also the reason why many Khmer people(including me) prefers to call you Siem instead of Thai, because Siem were seen as the tribes people and also the connotation very much means, thefts. Once again im not disputing that we didnt learn or accept indianisation. In fact, we protected your tribes, taught you history, our language etc. without Khmer Empire, Siems wouldnt be where they are today.
@babibump that depends on which side of the fence your on. We had our own culture, language, religion, kingdoms, traditions. Suddenly one day a group of people came and invaded us and forced us to learn their ways. lol doesn't sound right does it. Ancient warfare. There was nothing noble about it. cultural influence only spreads so far from a power base. Khmer power base is along the tonle sap. Tai power base was much closer to Mon power base.
@KensaiZen That is true. Ancient warfare is ugly. From history we know that the Khmer Empire has fought many invaded wars ourselves, at one point the Khmer Kingdom was also invaded by Ghanis Khan, but due to the jungle and harsh water he lost the battle. Not sure why the Siem tribe was invaded or if they seeked our Kingdom for protection, but one thing we do know is that during the Khmer Empire period, we gave you refuge and protection before you stole our culture and land to this days.
@babibump Khmers did not fight the mongols. Khmers killed the mongol envoy. killed the second envoy along with 100 mongols. Then fearing the wrath of the mongols the khmers decided to pay tribute. There was no war. Fighting the mongols in the jungles was the history of king mengrai of Lanna. Not Khmer history but Thai. Siem did not seek refuge nor were they uncivilised. You have been fed propaganda from start to finish. If you don't believe me. Do your own research.
@KensaiZen "In 1280 Mangrai first made peace between King Ngam Mueang of Phayao and King Ram Khamhaeng of Sukhothai, who had seduced the former's queen; and then was able to make a pact between the three Kings to defend their lands against the expanding Mongol Empire." "Yuan emperor Temur established a tributary relationship with the war-like Shan brothers after his series of military operations against Thailand from 1297 to 1303" The date conflicts with each other, can you share me your source?
Less well known are the Mongols campaigns against Mangrai and his allies. We can only guess how this warfare originated, probably when the Mongols gained the submission of Chiang Hung in 1290. It's ruler then, Thao Ai, Mangrai's second cousin, was but a young man of twenty-three years and must have appealed for help to Mangrai. When Chaing Hung Subsequently rebelled, the Chinese emperor in 1292 ordered an expedition sent against Mangrai and Chaing Hung.
@babibump the most important evidence about Khom vs Khmer is the counting system. Khmer counting system is based on 1-5 then repeat with 5+1 5+2 for 6 and 7. Khmer borrowed Tai words for multiples of 10 as there was no such words in Khmer language. The Khom used a 1-10 counting system. It would be astronomicaly hard to manage a work force to build such a grand scale temple as Agnkor wat using a 1-5 system. 9876567898765 without loan words in khmer is 5453525155152535452515.
@KensaiZen Silly information. Where is this source? Suggesting that the Khmer Empire or the Khmer people couldnt have build the Ankor Wat because we couldnt count to 10 is very very silly. You and I know, we are smarter then that. As for the slaves or who built the Ankor Wat, i have a slight idea that it may have been with the Champa people(slaves) helps after they lost the wars (personal theories).
@babibump your language does not have the 10 base but borrows it from Tai language. Your counting system counts 987656789 as 54535251551525354. Now you tell me how stupidly impossible that is to manage such a large work force to build angkor wat with a counting system like that. The Khom counting system is 1-10 based. Why did you change back to using a silly 1-5 system and then had to borrow the 10 bases? why? because you were not the khom people.
@KensaiZen I think you lost me and your personal theories is even more stupid then my personal theory. From your research, has the Khmer counting system changed since building the Ankor Wat and other temples? If our counting system hasnt changed since then. are you suggesting that the current Khmer people cannot build another Ankor Wat, even if we tried because we cant count to 10? Also about the TraSok Pream King or whatever, that is also stupid. Khmer Empire 802 AD, TraSok Peam (1336?)
@babibump yes. the khmer counting system does not support the 1-10 system without the use of "borrowed" words. Were these borrowed words present during ancient times? No. Can you build an Angkor wat type monument now? yes, because your counting system has evolved. Can you do it using only khmer system without the use of borrowed numbers. Questionable. like i keep mentioning, your assumption that khom are khmer is making you think khmer empire began prior to 1336. Khom are not Khmer.
@babibump Why would you claim the theory of trasok peam stupid? This is taken from the records written by your khmer king nak ong eng. Actually his account doesn't even begin with trasok peam but the king AFTER him. Do you have an explanation as to why your own king would begin the khmer chronicles from that point onwards and not from the varman line of kings? the evidence is there, how can you ignore it?
@babibump the precision needed to build a temple comlex based on the technique of building without mortar requires a system with the least amount of room for error. Any mistakes and the buildings will collapse. The 1-5 system is flawed. Tell 98767 slaves to take 74567 stone blocks and carve out 8769 statues. Slaves were illiterate, you can't write instructions for them to follow everything was done orally. Now assuming khmers were khom and used 1-10 system. Why revert back to a flawed 1-5 system
@babibump lol though looking at that it sounds like something a Roman would say. Quite naive tbh you assume the Tai were barbarians before khmers came. Like I said. We already had a fortified kingdom before the turn of the millenium, barbarians or even jungle tribes don't live in cities. We have always been theravada buddhists+brahminism. We never adopted Hinduism or mahayana buddhism like ancient khmers.
@babibump The Chinese managed to take Chiang Hung in 1296, but Mangrai immediately sent a force to retake the city. The Chinese response was delaye, and it was not until 1301 that preparations were undertaken for a major invasion of this Tai region, with the assembling of a force of twenty thousand men and ten thousand horses, reinforced by Mongol archers.
@babibump This campaign was a diasaster for the Chinese. Their failures seem only to have emboldened the Tai, for by 1309 Chiang Mai and Chiang Hung were acting in concert to raid as far north as Wei-yuan and continued as late as 1311.Tiring of warfare, the Chinese turned to diplomacy and received tribute of tame elephants and local products from Chiang Hung and Chiang Mai in 1312. Chiang Mai sent subsequent missions to the Chinese court in 1315,
@babibump 1326 (when the mission was led by the King's son), 1327, 1328, 1329 and 1347. Chiang Hung was slower to give up its raids into Chinese territory, which ceased only in 1325"
@babibump sadly due to myanmar government, I have not been able to find any historic records regarding this, but there are others who have the same theory. The word kampuchea also appears in myanmar as kanbawza. Now the word kampuchea itself was said to derive from a king kambu of the line of kamboja kings. Now why would the Shan name a region in their kingdom kanbawza? there is also a pagoda in myanmar with the name Kanbawza Pyi Nyein Aye Pagoda meaning "peaceful shan land pagoda"
@KensaiZen interesting, yes, i have also come across a similar story. I have been living in Australia for 20 years, i never knew of how deep our Khmer history is until last few years. Sadly today, Khmer is just a piece of shiet, one of the poorest country in SE Asia and possibly one of the most corrupted country, thanks to Hun Sen.
@babibump TBH Im more surprised as to why no one has tried to assassinate him yet. Khmers are proud and brave people, im not sure why he has been allowed to be there for so long. one life for the khmer people...
@KensaiZen Not sure how much you knwo about the Khmer political affair. But Hun Sen has been in power since the fall of the Pol Pot Regime(1975) to this day, which is the reason why our land is getting smaller by days. This useless PM spend $1 million on education in 2010, yet $230 millions of military 2010. This year hes increased the budget spend even more because of the coming 2012 Election. I hope he dies soon for the sake of the nation and peace between our countries.
@babibump do you not find it incredible that the shan who is all the way up there would have such a strong connection with the word kamboja? strong enough to link it with the name of their people. Also another theory regarding that the shan is the name of the capital of land chenla "Van Shen" could lead to Funan and Chenla being populated by many ethnics. Civil war broke out between khmer chenla and Tai chenla. Khmers won, driving out the Tai to go north.
@babibump Khmer Surin people are proud to be khmer descent, so they should be, but they are also proud to be Thai. Thai is a national identity which for some silly reason most khmers I've come across have no idea what it means. Surin was a power base for the khmer empire. Thus highly populated by khmers. The khmer empire that was not populated by khmers is what most of Thailand now stands. Except for SE and E areas such as Surin and a lot of Isan.
@KensaiZen In reguards to the border dispute, i think there are hidden political agenda. Like i said, Hun Sen the PM, is only interested in power and money. For that reason, he is forcing the nation to live in fear of another war. For him, the border dispute is a way for him to show off his military power to his party and to international countries. He is useless, and many Khmer and Khmer abroad hates him for whats hes done to the country. As long as he is in power, there will always be clashes
we can't say that muay thai is from bokator or bokator from muay thai. In fact during the war beetween thailand and khmer all the archive of thailand were burn down and long time ago the border of the country wasn't the same as it is right now. So I think there were a martial art above the muay thai and the bokator and after they separate state everybody have made their own martial art
@samuraipsycho, It's not about race, it's about how well you fight. Capoeira is classified as a martial arts which was used by slaves. Do you have anything against that? Bokator wasn't a martial arts for slaves, in fact, it was used on the Battlefield.
By the way, if you are going to criticise something, at least spell it correctly. Bokator has the letter 'R' at the end.
@samuraipsycho bokator is ancient khmer martial art, search it dude. you shouldn't criticize on a martial art just because it's similar. you should say muay thai originated from bokator.
huh? wat the fuck r u kunt tolkin abt LMAO they good man, why dont u go there and fight 1 of them u will see if they shit or not . man khmer fighter the way they fight they all have there own way of stand like bird kham his a sick kunt . lack experience? huh? i wuoldn say that them kunt fight in a day 3 or 4 time a day
Everybody came from an African tribe millions of years ago so shut up! One Love!
MacLee909 3 weeks ago
To the Thai government: Please stop trying invading and taking lands from Cambodia, Cambodia is already a small country, compared to big area Thailand. All we want is peace and not repeating errors and mistakes from the past.
ffilou6 4 months ago
@ichibang15549 Dickhead. GO read your history or ask the elders. I dont care Where Muay Thai came from anymore, as everybody knows where the Siam were originated from, and where they stole their cultures from. BUT they should respect the Khmer people today and enough with the STEALING and killing innocent Khmer.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump stole? lol do you even realise how unoriginal khmer culture is? do you even know that that the khmer empire consisted of many kingdoms of many peoples? did you also know that the first Tai kingdom in SEA was before your empire even existed? sure there are a few things we got from khmers like say the script. That we know. Everything else such as indianisation, religion, art etc we got from Mon Dvaravati. You don't even know what that is do you? the history you know is propaganda.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Khmer Empire was considered the greatest Empire during its time with a population of 1 million (big number back then) unless you have other sources confirmation its false?
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump the only reason why its called the khmer empire is because when the french rediscovered Angkor. The only people in the Area were khmer. Thus Angkor was attributed to Khmers. This was how long ago? based on french assumptions and not proper historical research. The population that lived/worked in Angkor consisted of Mon, Tai, Cham, Khmer. All the ethnics of SEA living together. Who was the ruling class? its not hard to figure.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen I see that you are only interested in trolling. Good luck trying to convince the world, hopefully one day they will stop stealing other cultures and lands, maybe one day you can also teach our own people not to steal from us. en(.)wikipedia(.)org/wiki/List_of_Thai_Monarchs (check out the date of your kings-1239 and compare that to our first Queen Soma -100, not Trosok Peam -1336 or Zhou -1219)
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump lol Queen Soma was not Khmer. She was Cham. Naga princess. Champa = Nokor Nagari. Where does it say anywhere that she was Khmer? The whole FuNan creation myth about Kaundinya and soma first appeared in Champa :) First ever "Khmer" king RECORDED appeared after 1336. Everything earlier is just an assumption that they were Khmer based on french alteration of historic records. you've already closed your mind to evidence. FuNan was definitely not a khmer kingdom.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump and heres another history lesson, khmers are not indigenous to SEA. Your people also migrated into the area. The original people were austroneasean like the Malay and Chams. The kingdom of Funan was not a khmer kingdom. Khmers took over Funan and adopted the culture. You young khmers have been brainwashed by the BS propaganda. Start researching into your history and the history and culture of Thai people, then you will know the truth.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Dude. I dont care anymore. All im saying is tell the Siems to stop killing and steal from our people. Since you seems to know your history, what do you think of the recent border dispute Preah Vihear?
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump the whole situation is BS. the original agreement between Siam and france agreed on a different border. Using a new map which was not contested for a long time is still breaking the original agreement. If I built a house on your land and you didnt say anything about it for 20 years, does it make it my land now?. Though im happy to let cambodia have preah vihear, you guys need it a lot more then we do.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Yes, I agree the whole situation is BS. This is all a political game. Hun Sen, 30 years in ruling, got his own agenda, and he is killing the nation for his own luxury lifestyle. I believe you are also refering to the MOU 2000 Paris act. To me, I dont care of we have Preah Vihear or not, Hun Sen will only be rackless with it, just like with the Ankor Wat. Ankor Wat belongs to the Khmer people, yet, its is being managed by the Vietnamese Parties along with many businesses in Khmer.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump no the original agreement was during 1907 when the border was agreed to be the watershed line. This agreement was broken when a different map was used moving that border deeper into Thai territory so that preah vihear and surrounding area was under cambodian territory. Thailand said nothing for a long time and so ICJ says its ok for cambodia to have it. I mean wtf... if you break an agreement, how is it legit to hold on to the territory?
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Speaking of the Khmer Empire, I still strongly believe that you Siem stole many things from us. Looking back at when Khmer Empire was once great, the map shows us many thing, and today, our nation is getting smaller and smaller, thanks to Hun Sen for selling out the country. I agree with you about our heritage and according to the Wikipedia. But like i said, the Siems stole many things from us, our culture and our lands. Have you spoken to Khmer Surin and learnt anything from them?
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump what your map doesn't show you is the kingdoms that formed the khmer empire. The maps you people see is a map of the empire and not of the peoples and kingdoms which made up the territory. Khmer culture centered around the area of Cambodia present day. Towards the N and NE were predominantly Tai, West was Mon, East was Cham. When Angkor was sacked the Tai indeed took things from khmer culture. These things were retaught back to khmers later on by the Siamese, such as royal dance
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Yes, i think you are right, indeed, the Siems stole many things including the cultures then retaught back to the Khmer people claiming they own it, isn't that the definition of stealing? If our Map of the Khmer Empire is wrong and only spreading false propaganda, can you share us your accurate version?
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump what was retaught to khmers is the siamese version of khmer culture. If you look into it you will see that it is different to Angkorian art and culture. Basically Angkorian>Siamese>post Angkor khmer. Why does post Angkor khmer culture look so similar to Siamese and not Angkorian? its obvious. Same thing with Indian culture and khom culture, they took indian culture and turned it into their own. Is this stealing?
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen From what i understand of the Indian culture is that back then, they were one of the four kingdoms along with the Khmer Empire, and Siem was just a small tribe(forest) before our Empire took them in and protected them and taught them our culture. The Indian culture, sankrits, religions and buddha teaching were popular back in the days thus great influence all over Asia. But you Siem took our land, cultures and many things and claims you invented those, that is stealing.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump That however is propaganda. Singanuwat nakorn aka yonok nakorn chai buri sri chiang saen is recorded to date 545BC the Tai/Siem were already in the area with our own kingdom almost 1000 years before khmers appeared in history. Siam/Tai is more akin to Mon culture than khmer hindu. No doubt there were influences as but to think the Tai/siem were illiterate are uncivilised before khmer contact is ridiculous.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen It indeed is hard to prove, evidences are there. I wouldnt say the Siems were illiterate or uncivilised during the Khmer Empire, but that is disputable dont you agree? Dont forget that we were once also mountain/jungle tribes before we became a great empire. I have yet to see any evidence that Siem had its own Kingdom of 1000 years without the help of the Khmer Empire. i hope you are not blind.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump My friend you need to research into Tai history and culture. Of course the Tai had to learn khmer script during the empire, seeing as it was the standard script of the government, that is pretty normal even in todays world. No one disagrees that We learned the khmer language. It is even written in Thai history that the script is based of khom (khmer) script. Though indianisation already happened during the Chiang Saen era and continued after it.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen All research indicated that Siem stole our cultures and our land. lol. But i will keep researching as i enjoy reading. Not sure you keep bringing up indianisation, as i already agreed to your statement. If you think the Siem only took the language from us, and not the land and culture and many things, i think you need to open your mind, evidences are there, you just need to see it. you know its more then just language.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump like i said. The only part of the land that belonged to khmers is the parts originaly occupied by Chenla. The lands that were not did not belong to khmers. 70% of Thailand is situated on Mon Dvaravati land. How did we take a land that did not belong to you? culture wise? there are khmer cultural aspects we did take, we already acknowledge it. I think you are obviously overlooking the Mon cultural influence on Thai culture.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
Can you share us your link of the land the Siam occupied before and after the Khmer Empire? From what i can see, the Siam have very much taken a large chunks of the lands. Now claiming they never took our land or the culture. I prefer to listen to your history lesson but i really want you to see that the Siem stole many things from us as i have mentioned before. If Khmer language was standard, isnt possible Khmer influence had a greater impact then Indianasation/Mon influence, during and after?
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump en(.)wikipedia(.)org/wiki/File:DvaravatiMapThailand.png
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen en(.)wikipedia(.)org/wiki/Dvaravati
babibump 6 months ago
@KensaiZen "There is evidence that these principalities may comprise many cultural groups of people, including Malays and Khmers. The theory of Thai migration into Dvaravati has been refuted and is now known to have happened much later."
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump Of course, Tai were not the original people of Dvaravati. They were the Mon. Angkorian empire spread westwards and conquered Mon Dvaravati. Tai power base at the time was further north in Chiang Saen. Later years the power base would move down into Mon power base ie central Thailand. But it shows that khmers were never the real owners of the land, so how can Thai steal khmer land? Thai are coexisting with Mon in Thailand.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen We never established who the owners of the land was, i thought that quote should be of interest to you, since you suggested the map supports your arguments that the Siems were around 1000 years before the Khmer Empire. Again, we can debate who the real owners were, and we know that there many races in that area, and the Siem came later on in the period, so this supports my arguments that the Khmer Empire had greater influence in the regions.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump errr no it doesn't. The map only supports the fact that the land in question was not originaly part of the khmer sphere of power. Thus you cannot claim something which is not yours. Or has the khmer suddenly turn into Mons? lol Like I said. The theory of Tai migrating from Yunnan after the fall of Nanchao has been proven FALSE. You can forget about that way of thinking. Tai have been in SEA since prehistoric times. Ban Chiang <-- 4000BC
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen I dont have much knowledge about the history of the Mon people. From my knowledge is that the Mon people were quite close to the Siem living in the same (northern) area. Did they ever fight each other? Is that why the Khmer Empire took you in? Surely, their cultures and land no longer exist because of the invaded wars.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump Basically put. The Ancient Khom people were not Khmers. Khmers were part of the population which overthrew the Khom.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen I have somewhat heard of the theories. From my understanding of it is that, during that time, there were different type of tribes and different types of (Khmer). One of them is the Khom people from the mountain area.
babibump 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Another evidence that the Siem stole our lands and our culture is Suryavarman II, one of the King from the Khmer Empire. Who was one of the greatest King we ever had, one of the biggest achievement is the Ankor Wat (Khmer built), so if he is one of the Greatest King we ever had, and having built a great empire, why would his home town be Lopburi in Thailand? It couldnt have been that he was Siem, could it? If it doesnt make sense, its not true. Siem took our land and culture.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump interesting you mention that. Add me to your friends list so i can show you something. Too long to type in here. But basically, The ruling class of the empire were not even khmer. They didn't speak the same language as the people. Before the french discovered Angkor, the portuguese got there first. They asked the locals who built it. The locals said "foreigners". There is some indication that the people who "planned" the building of Angkor were not khmer. Khmers were the slaves.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen The article you sent to my inbox is silly. Most of the theories were abit twisted such as the ruling Empire wasnt Khmer, yet its called the Khmer Empire, yes? As with the language, as there were many different types of Khmer back then, they also have their own dialect, accent and language, even as today, theres why there are Khmer Surin (Northern Khmer), Khmer Khrom (Bottom Khmer). The Siem language were scripted and acknowledge it came from Khmer as we all know.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump Khrom and Khom is assumed to be the same. Archaic Khom language and modern Khmer language is worlds apart. How can you base the meaning of the word from a modern khmer word? Ancient khom is sanskrit based. If the word did not have sanskrit origin it was not used during that period ESPECIALLY in royal use. Siem script came from Khom script. Is Khom Khmer? this is what we are trying to prove.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Khrom and Khom is assumed to be the same? I think you are getting silly with your information and looking in the wrong direction again. My above points was just proving that there were different types of Khmer back then and still is today. Khmer Khrom which basically means Khmer Vietnamese, no need to bring up Sankrit scripts. LOL.
babibump 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Also, Yes, i have heard similar story that the portiguese may have discovered us, but the french colonized Cambodia for awhile before we gained our interdependency. If you have ever visited Ankor Wat or talked to the locals, you will know that during the Khmer EMpire, Ankor Wat and the surrounding temple were covered by rivers, water, one way is to travel was by boat.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump I know about the canal working of Angkor wat. Havent been there yet but planning to go and do some field research later next year.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump Zhou Daguan the only real source of information about the people and hiearchy of Angkor writes some very interesting things about the populace and the ruling class. I suggest you read what he wrote. I have, and its quite incredible when I compared it with my research.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Thanks for bringing up his name, wow, his account of the 1266–1346 Khmer kingdom is amazing. Its incredible how his experience can be shared with us today. But once again, that account only provide information of the Khmer kingdom, which doesn't correlate with your arguments about the Siem. It only goes to show that the Khmer kingdom was rich and beautiful. Which is what we all know.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump Thats just it. Was it really the Khmer empire? or was it actually the Khom empire. This is the issue. The empire is named after Khmers because Angkor is found in Khmer territory in present day. Khmers populate the area today, but were they the only population in that time. Silly french assumption based history. Does not include the idea of ethnic displacement even though throughout the recorded history there was massive civil war and even a slave rebellion.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump Siam ayuthaya is Mon Dvaravati sucessor even says it in the full name of ayuthaya which has the name dvaravati in it.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen To simply put, all accounts of the Siem history are connected to the Khmer Empire. If we refer back to the map Jayavarman VII had great influence over the region and even prior Kings. Siems were uncivilized tribes before they were influenced by the Khmer Empire. We taught you language, culture and history and even Muay Thai. One theories from speaking to the elders and monks is that we also taught the Siem fighting techniques (Muay Thai, Bokator) and ancient weaponries (Forks, Bamboo)
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump Siems were uncivilised? where is the proof? this is just pure assumption. taught language? Khom is not khmer, we do not speak khmer. All the Words we share in commen all have a sanskrit root. Siamese do not speak a word of original Khmer. Bokator as taught by san kim saen has been found to be a fabrication and is fake. But like I keep mentioning, is the Khmer actually the Khom? Khmers were the slave of Khom, how can you teach what is not yours?
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Like i said, I think you are digging the wrong information. Information can be overwhelming if you are not careful. From research and history, its called the Khmer Empire and not the Khom Empire, yes? Have you heard of the story about the Phnom Kulen? I have read the Siem history, they only emerged during and after the Khmer Empire mainly in the 1301 onward.
babibump 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Siems were uncivilised and were just tribes. Proof is in front of your eyes. Where were their civilizations during the Khmer Empire from the 900 onward? Like i said, i spoke to many Khmer elders, as they have explained it, one theories was that we taught you Siems many art forms, one of them was Muay Thai, but you can claims you invented it, as its now hard for us to prove it. Just dont be surprised once you found the connection. You seemed a bit shocked by everything.
babibump 6 months ago
@KensaiZen I think i gave you enough information. Its hard to swallow the truth but soemtime, you have toconsider the possiblity that its the truth. and Truth can be hurtful, as it is our human nature. Now with Muay Thai and Bokator, do some research on it, Im sure you can find sources and its origins. Muay Thai emerged only in the recent centuries yet there were considered ancient art form yes? Bokator, also ermeged in the recent years but yet, many sources suggesting its from the 800.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump lol which sources are those? reliefs on angkor wat? those only show a few techniques of a fighting style. The "grandmaster" of bokator san kim saen is a fraud lol he invented a new art combining hapkido and pradal serey. The origin of the word bokator doesnt even mean beating a lion with a stick. it is the art of twin stick fighting. The origin of the word is sanskrit, not khmer.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Less talk, more sources, might help us to come to a conclusion. Have you found anymore info on Muay Thai or Muay Boran. You do know that Boran is a Khmer word, yes? Found anymore connection yet, are you satisfied with what you know?
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump Muay is a sanskrit word mavya. Boran comes form the sanskrit word purana. These aren't khmer words. We just share the words :)
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump Actually there are NO original Khmmer words used in the Thai langauge. There is only words with a Sanskrit or Pali origin :)
KensaiZen 6 months ago
Is Khmer actually the Khom people? Or were Khmer people just slave? Is this based on your information you send to my inbox? lol. Can you send me some sources?
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump What I sent to your inbox has the references. But I w'll email you a link to something which describes it in more detail.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump Pahuyuth Tai does not have the use of forks or Bamboo stick fighting.
Even in the oldest recorded text recording the art of warfare is there no mention of forks or stick fighting (bokator)
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Seems like im now teaching you about histroy instead of you teaching me. Anyway about the Forks, its an ancient weapon. Swords, axe, forks, bamboo were mainly used during the war. If you ever have a chance to look at the Ankor Wat and the pictures depicted on the monuments and others, you can see fork as one of the weapons. One theories from speaking to the elders is that, our Empire crumbled because fork was slow and hard for soldiers, unlike swords fast and easy to master.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump The fork is hindu/indian of origin and was predominately a ceremonial weapon rather than one used for war. Your empire crumbled because of the fork? thats absurd. Weapon technology evolved as time wen't on. people will not keep using a weapon they know would not work. They would adapt to use the sword and other weapons. This whole theory is flawed from step 1. I've seen the Angkor bas reliefs btw :)
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen "One theories from speaking to the elders is that, our Empire crumbled because fork was slow" Hint hint. All these information are overwhelming, and you are not looking at the my words carefully. I never said i found any found to support my conclusion, this theories came from discussing with the elders and monks.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump lol my elders and monks will say something different. So who is lieing? see my point? There actually is a recorded Chronicles of cambodia written by a Khmer king nak ong eng. There are two version so this, a Thai one and a french one. The Thai translation of it shows that the line of Khmer kings BEGAN after the last Varman king. The french has somehow manage to make it out that Khmer kings go back all the way to FuNan without evidence. just a claim.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump If you take both versions and match the time line and events. This is the real history. We have to discard the bits that do not match up because we do not know if it is a fabrication created for nationalistic purposes. The original document was destroyed by the khmer rouge, but this is a khmer chronicle, written by a Khmer king. So who you going to believe? the king at that point in history or your elders? your elders probably don't even know such a document exists lol
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen "Ayuthaya was a Siamese kingdom that existed from 1350 to 1767. Dvaravati began to come under the influence of the Khmer Empire and central Thailand was ultimately invaded by the Khmer king Suryavarman II in the first half of the 12th century.Thai migration into Dvaravati has been refuted and is now known to have happened much later." Look at the timeline. Is it possible that these information are false?
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump Yonok nakorn sri chiang saen 545BC is the northern region of Dvaravati. If Tai migration into Dvaravati came later... explain the archaeological EVIDENCE of this TAI kingdom. It is very possible that information is false as it is based on assumption. SEA was populated by Mon, Tai, Cham and Khmer. Ban Chiang the proto Tai culture is dated 4000BC does this not show that Tai people were in the area?
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen LOL Tai Culture dated 4000BC? Wow.. thats a load of bullcrap. You seem to have found strong evidence of their existence (Share us your source), yet, i have never seen any strong evidence prior to 1300, which is after the Khmer Empire crumbled. So, if the Khmer Empire had a population of a million, what was the population of the Siem dated back to 4000BC? 1?
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump Google Ban Chiang. You will find your answer there :)
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump but now if you look at it from another source. The prehistoric site of Ban Chiang. Scholars have agreed that these people spoke a ancient form of the Tai language. Not Khmer. This ancient site already blows away all previous thoughts about life in SEA. The prehistoric people already knew how to cultivate rice, metal working etc look it up. If they were of the Tai stock, how is it that Tai are considered as hill tribe? uncivilised? Tai history goes back thousands of years.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump now if the Tai migration into Dvaravati is refuted and false. Can you explain Chiang Saen? it predates dvaravati. Dvaravati itself consists of many smaller kingdoms. Of which Tai are present towards the north. You can tell by the names of the kingdoms.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen "No reliable written history of the city exists until the arrival of King Mengrai in the 13th century." Chiang Saen. To put it in short, looking at the date in question, Chianf Saen, Ban Chaing, Mon Dvaravati, evidence doesnt prove much to support your arguments. During the Khmer Empire, the Siems were a bunch of tribes to the north before the Khmer Empire took you in, as scripted Dvaravati was under the influence of the Khmer EMpire dated back to the 10th century.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump no reliable? the history of chiang saen was written on palm leave dating the arrival and founding of Singhanuwat nakorn as 545BC This is recorded history with a date. Is this more or less reliable then bas reliefs? the term siem was the chinese way of saying Suphan for the people of Suphanaphum or Svarnabhumi which is a Mon kingdom. This is also recorded. The empire did not exist at this time. Siems were not a jungle tribe people.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Im going by according to my research, unless you can show me your sources? Siems were uncivilized jungle tribes, because they had little cultures and needed protection, thus why the Khmer Empire took you in and taught our our history. We were once jungle tribes too. The term siems, was our way of saying you were from the north tribe, and later on the term siem was used as thefts, after you stole our history and culture.Jayavarman II was Khmer, if he was Khom or Siem, then it'd sense.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump "There was no Muay Thai in the first place there were only “Muay” anybody could learn no matter what he is Thai, Lao, Khmer, Burma. Thai didn’t own the art it universal. Thai put the word “Thai” to separete Muay from Boxing(Thai call “Muay Sakol” mean International Muay) or clarify that Muay Thai is originated from Thailand, please you guy kindly help me by showing any evidences of which state that Muay Thai is even older than the relief carving on the 13th century"
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump Muay Thai is called Muay Thai because it is the Thai version of Muay (boxing) There are also muay Lao, Muay Bama, Muay whatever, it just simply means the boxing of that country. There are no records of muay thai older than the "reliefs which show only a few techniques of a fighting style" in angkor. To base an entire fighting system on a few techniques is assumption based history again. Burmese lethwei is also similar to Muay thai and predates Angkor reliefs by almost 900 years.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Wrong. Why dont we just assume that during the khmer Empire (900) we taught you Muay Boran and other art forms, before your government decided that you own the artist art form, would that make better sense? As we know the Siems were just uncivilized jungle tribes that had no army and needed protection.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump once again you revert back to siems being a jungle tribe. where is your evidence? I have already shown you proof that the siem in question were the Mon people and that they were civilised. Ignoring facts now are we? Khmers are not Khom, there was no khmer empire lol
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Evidence is the Ruler of the Khmer Empire, Jayavarman, was was your kingdom and who was your ruler during Jayavarman ruling?
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump where is it enscribed that it was a "Khmer" empire? we are using modern assumptions and attaching them to Ancient records. Jayavarman was the ruler of the empire. Was it ever a "khmer" empire? nothing really indicates that it was "khmer"
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Using Modern assumption to the Siem it means, Lies and properganda. LOL. Come on buddy, im not here to feed your troll, everything i have provided you are facts and strong evidence. Most of your claims are just plain stupid. In fact, i thougth you were smarter then this, i prefer to see you as a smart person, but you are obviously overlooking many accounts and misguided with many information. Btw, are you Leeporter, because your writting pattern is quite similar.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump which facts are these? you have said siem were a jungle tribe and were illiterate. So far you have shown me nothing. You said khmer kings go far back as FuNan. I have shown you evidence that say they do not. You have shown me a list of kings based on the assumption that they were khmer, when the royal khmer source say they were not. oh btw Im not leeporter lol I stumbled across his post when I tried looking for khmer historical records.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump @babibump Chinese records for that period used the word "sem" for the Mon of suphanbhumi. "sem" from the word suphan from the word gold. Suphanabhumi was a great kingdom. Modern assumption for siem as you yourself know makes them out to be jungle tribes <--- where is the source for this?. Now you tell me which one is propaganda? enough said really. Why bother to even try to follow historic sources when your mind is already made up?
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Have you found or mapped out how many kings and kingdoms you had yet? if you are stuck and need guidance, im here to help. Its okay to admit that the Siems were thefts and still are. Nothing can change the past.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump it clearly shows from your comments that your mind has already been made up that siems are thieves, even when shown proof and historical records about your own people and history. How about i begin with the first Tai king in SEA Singhanuwat? or if we go for siem kings, here is one that was recorded In AD 1054 manu haw was kidnapped by the burmese king Anawratha. Once again, this is recorded history. Where is your evidence to say otherwise?
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump If you would map out the lineage of Mon kings that would be great. Im sure the experience will teach you something about your jungle tribe people lol it would also show they actually recorded history, oh wait, they possibly couldn't do that since they were illiterate until they met khmers lol oh please.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen "Ignoring facts now are we? Khmers are not Khom, there was no khmer empire lol " You are a funny man, sadly. lol.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump Siem is the word the chinese recorded for the kingdom of suphanabhumi (svaranabhumi) They were Mon people. Their kingdom was not in the jungle, they had their own language and culture, they are more ancient than khmers, they lived in walled cities. Where on earth did you get that Siem were jungle poeple? the baseless assumption from the bas relief at Angkor? lol come on, you got to do better than that lol siem is not a Khmer word. The origin is sanskrit. Khmers didn't speak sanskrit.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Stealing from the Mon people and stealing the Mon kingdom and claiming the Siem owns them is called STEALING. Here is another facts for you, since you lack resources and information. "Mon inscriptions from the Dvaravati kingdom's ruins also litter Thailand. However it is not clear if the inhabitants were Mon, a mix of Mon and Malay, or Khmer. Later inscriptions and kingdoms like Lavo were subservient to the Khmer." Ancient Speak didnt speak sanskrit? LOL silly boy.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump once again... all this "khmer empire" is under the assumption that the rulers of the empire were Khmer. You have overlooked your own kings records stating that your "empire" didn't begin till after 1336. Khom is not Khmer. This is a creation of the french. It is actually pretty clear what the inhabitants were lol where is your source from? oh and btw the eye witness accounts say that the language of the ruling class and the common people were not the same. What language do you speak?
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen I keep proving you facts, yet you keep saying its propganda blaming the french. What lauguage do i speak? I speak English to be more precisely. LOL. Here is another fact. "The beginning of the era of the Khmer Empire is conventionally dated to 802 AD. In this year, king Jayavarman II had himself declared chakravartin ("king of the world", or "king of kings") on Phnom Kulen."
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump was jayavarman "khmer"? what language did he speak? what language is chakravartin?
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen It seems like you need to learn about the Siem history then you will understand where and when the inhabitants were and why you stole our culture and our land.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump care to show me where i can find information on this?
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump Yes thats right, Khmers didn't speak sanskrit. Khom spoke sanskrit. You seem to be under the illusion your people are the same people as the Khom lol This is why its so hard for you to see it from a different perspective. Zhou Da Guan wrote the rich people owned 100 slaves whilst not so rich owned at least 20. Now which group of peoples genetics do you think would be the dominant group in present day Cambodia? the minority masters, or the majority slaves? simple logic.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump Like I've mentioned before, the whole assumption of the empire belonging to Khmers is that there is only trace of a Khmer people in the area. Thus it was named Khmer empire. If the ruling class spoke a different language to the people and they spoke sanskrit... what language did the people speak? again, simple logic.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Look i know you are smart, but most of your logics are no better then a 5th grader. All i suggest is that you look at all evidence in question before you make your conclusions. You cant blame the french for changing the history, because many countries also supports their finding (CHina, Loas, Vietname). Can you finally show me your source as where was the Siem Empire during the Khmer Empire from 900 onward? Or were they only ever good at stealing other cultures and kingdoms?
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump yes, simple logic that even a 5th grader would understand. History is not complicated if you use facts and evidence. Now lets think if the siem weren't the Mon to the west of the empire. Who were they and where were they? show me your evidence :)
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen History is always complicated, only the Siems says history is easy to understand, because they write history according to what they know. en(.)wikipedia(.)org/wiki/Ruler_of_Cambodia. Show me records of your kings and kingdom?
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump you think that list is real? lol like i showed you. Your own chronicles of cambodia written "by your own Khmer king" starts after the Varman line ended. How then does it go back all the way to FuNan? lol so you believe the history written by the french and not that written by your own king. lol well done you.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen No, there are traces of the Khmer Empire all over the ruins. Even your country still has traces of our kingdom. the reason why the ruling classes spoke different language is because we have different group of Khmer, even in todays society. Different dialect, different accent, different tone.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump like i said. You are confusing khmer with Khom. The Khom were the rulers of the Empire. Sanskrit is not a dialect of Khmer nor is Khmer a dialect of Sanskrit. Completely different language with a completely different linguistic history and origin.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Yes, the Khom Empire. Now the world make sense.
babibump 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@babibump lol can you prove me wrong?
KensaiZen 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@KensaiZen The Sky isnt blue. Can you prove me wrong?
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump en(.)wikipedia(.)org/wiki/Ruler_of_Cambodia. Ruler of Cambodia, from the first Queen to todays King. Can you also show me how many kings you had or records of the kings you had, im sure you are able to show me, since you are full on info.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump lol so your basing your facts on assumption based history? like I said. The recorded beginning of your "Chronicles of Cambodia" written by a cambodian king BEFORE the french arrival says the first KHMER king began AFTER the varman line of kings. Are you calling your king a lier? if so, why would he write such a thing and not take the glory of the Varman line?
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen I dont think the french can map out and records all the kings and rulers of Cambodia without support of other countries, unless you Siems think you can. Can you Map me a history of the Siem rulers and kingdom?
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump It must be hard because the Siems never had a kingdom till around 1290, during that time, they onyl stole our cultures and our land.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump I've shown you that the name "siem/sem" is associated with Suphanaphum. Mentioned in very old Buddhist writings. However the first confirmed historical settlement was in the Dvaravati period, when the city was known as Mueang Thawarawadi Si Suphannaphumi. Its founding did take place 877-882.
You probably wouldn't believe anything I tell you anyway lol So i suggest you research it yourself.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump you don't THINK they can, but they have lol your basing this on an assumption that the french have not corrupted history. It has already been proven that their version of Khmer history is fabricated. Your people has been fed their lies for centuries. This is probably why its so hard for you to think any differently. Too much pride. No one wants to see their people as slaves. But the truth is the truth.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump the empire took over the area during the 10th century, but this shows that the people of the mekong delta were already civilised with fortifed cities, language, religion and culture. They were not jungle tribes as you are led to believe. Siem are Mon people makes sense because Mon people are also dark skinned o.O
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Anyway here is a random facts that might be of interest to you. Due to the country land concession policy under the current government of Hun Sen, over 50%(2007) of the Khmer land has been "sold" to private investors. This very much means, Khmer doesnt have much of a future if we have no land or no jobs. As you may also know that, many Khmer are now seeking works as maids in Malaysia, (50,000 maid), and with thousands of families are evicted (forced) from their home and land.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump Now as you can see from that map. The area that Thailand currently holds is mainly on Dvaravati land. like I said, the main power base of khmers is a long the tonle sap which is much further to the east. To actually have an empire that spans so many kingdoms, you had to conquer the people already there. They won't just give you their land lol that notion is absurd. The western mentality of "we came to civilise you" does not work on a people with firmly established culture.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump if you research into Mon dvaravati and check the Map you will see the territory that wasn't originally khmers. The map of Chenla empire can be considered the origin of the khmer empire. Anyhting outside Chenla was conquered by the khmer to create the khmer empire. To the west was Mon Dvaravati and Lavo, Northern regions were the Tai kingdoms. Singhanuwat nakorn aka yonok nakorn chaiburi sri chiang saen is dated 545BC. We were already in the area before khmers invaded.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump also you have to look at it at a religious and linguistic angle to also trace it. Western khmer empire were not Hindu's. They were Brahmin and Buddhists. The names of the cities were also important to understand the ancient kingdoms. Mon and Tai kingdoms place more importance on certain dieties and khmers different ones. Actually ive stumbled on to something which is even more incredible regarding the origin of the kampuchea in SEA.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen You are on the right track about the Khmer blood and origins, I have have also found similar story. If you have anything you can share, give me some links, i like reading and watching our history. Last few days of debate, seems like our only different is that you dont accept that the Siems were thefts back in the Khmer Empire days. Whats your theories on why the Khmer Empire crumbled?
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump The khmer empire was just too vast. It required too much resources to maintain. Such a big area could not be held by the Military forces available.Tai numbers were reinforced by the last migration of Tai from Yunnan and had sufficient military power now to break from khmer overlords. Khmer resources were spread too thin and too far away from khmer powerbase to prevent it. a culmination of Tai numbers increasing, khmer miss handling of resources (building too many temples) discontent
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump beacuse of the fact the empire consisted of many kingdoms, once one kingdom regained independence, the others would likely follow. Tai's are very much a warrior race (as recorded since ancient times by the chinese and the Tai's constantly warring history) with sufficient numbers it was inevitable they would break free from the empire and ultimately destroy it.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Once again, I agree it concur with my research, but it still proves that you Siems had nothing to start with and our Kingdom took you in before you started stealing from us. I believe one of the King entrusted one of his sons to look after the Siem tribe to teaching them our way of life and our culture by giving you shelter/protection. Over the years the son became independents so was his military force. As a result and years of wars, Siem looted the remains our culture as seen today.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump care to share which part of your research shows this? which prince in which century? I know through history khmer kings have given refuge to Tai princes and even gave one an army to conquer some territory and established his own kingdom, but that came at a much later time than. The first time Siam looted Angkor was 1431AD Looking at the ruins of Chiang Saen, Indianisation had already begun over 1000 years prior.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen I cant remember bro, but it was along that line somewhere. Thats also the reason why many Khmer people(including me) prefers to call you Siem instead of Thai, because Siem were seen as the tribes people and also the connotation very much means, thefts. Once again im not disputing that we didnt learn or accept indianisation. In fact, we protected your tribes, taught you history, our language etc. without Khmer Empire, Siems wouldnt be where they are today.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump that depends on which side of the fence your on. We had our own culture, language, religion, kingdoms, traditions. Suddenly one day a group of people came and invaded us and forced us to learn their ways. lol doesn't sound right does it. Ancient warfare. There was nothing noble about it. cultural influence only spreads so far from a power base. Khmer power base is along the tonle sap. Tai power base was much closer to Mon power base.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen That is true. Ancient warfare is ugly. From history we know that the Khmer Empire has fought many invaded wars ourselves, at one point the Khmer Kingdom was also invaded by Ghanis Khan, but due to the jungle and harsh water he lost the battle. Not sure why the Siem tribe was invaded or if they seeked our Kingdom for protection, but one thing we do know is that during the Khmer Empire period, we gave you refuge and protection before you stole our culture and land to this days.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump Khmers did not fight the mongols. Khmers killed the mongol envoy. killed the second envoy along with 100 mongols. Then fearing the wrath of the mongols the khmers decided to pay tribute. There was no war. Fighting the mongols in the jungles was the history of king mengrai of Lanna. Not Khmer history but Thai. Siem did not seek refuge nor were they uncivilised. You have been fed propaganda from start to finish. If you don't believe me. Do your own research.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen "In 1280 Mangrai first made peace between King Ngam Mueang of Phayao and King Ram Khamhaeng of Sukhothai, who had seduced the former's queen; and then was able to make a pact between the three Kings to defend their lands against the expanding Mongol Empire." "Yuan emperor Temur established a tributary relationship with the war-like Shan brothers after his series of military operations against Thailand from 1297 to 1303" The date conflicts with each other, can you share me your source?
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump David K Wyatt
Less well known are the Mongols campaigns against Mangrai and his allies. We can only guess how this warfare originated, probably when the Mongols gained the submission of Chiang Hung in 1290. It's ruler then, Thao Ai, Mangrai's second cousin, was but a young man of twenty-three years and must have appealed for help to Mangrai. When Chaing Hung Subsequently rebelled, the Chinese emperor in 1292 ordered an expedition sent against Mangrai and Chaing Hung.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump the most important evidence about Khom vs Khmer is the counting system. Khmer counting system is based on 1-5 then repeat with 5+1 5+2 for 6 and 7. Khmer borrowed Tai words for multiples of 10 as there was no such words in Khmer language. The Khom used a 1-10 counting system. It would be astronomicaly hard to manage a work force to build such a grand scale temple as Agnkor wat using a 1-5 system. 9876567898765 without loan words in khmer is 5453525155152535452515.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Silly information. Where is this source? Suggesting that the Khmer Empire or the Khmer people couldnt have build the Ankor Wat because we couldnt count to 10 is very very silly. You and I know, we are smarter then that. As for the slaves or who built the Ankor Wat, i have a slight idea that it may have been with the Champa people(slaves) helps after they lost the wars (personal theories).
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump your language does not have the 10 base but borrows it from Tai language. Your counting system counts 987656789 as 54535251551525354. Now you tell me how stupidly impossible that is to manage such a large work force to build angkor wat with a counting system like that. The Khom counting system is 1-10 based. Why did you change back to using a silly 1-5 system and then had to borrow the 10 bases? why? because you were not the khom people.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen I think you lost me and your personal theories is even more stupid then my personal theory. From your research, has the Khmer counting system changed since building the Ankor Wat and other temples? If our counting system hasnt changed since then. are you suggesting that the current Khmer people cannot build another Ankor Wat, even if we tried because we cant count to 10? Also about the TraSok Pream King or whatever, that is also stupid. Khmer Empire 802 AD, TraSok Peam (1336?)
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump yes. the khmer counting system does not support the 1-10 system without the use of "borrowed" words. Were these borrowed words present during ancient times? No. Can you build an Angkor wat type monument now? yes, because your counting system has evolved. Can you do it using only khmer system without the use of borrowed numbers. Questionable. like i keep mentioning, your assumption that khom are khmer is making you think khmer empire began prior to 1336. Khom are not Khmer.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump Why would you claim the theory of trasok peam stupid? This is taken from the records written by your khmer king nak ong eng. Actually his account doesn't even begin with trasok peam but the king AFTER him. Do you have an explanation as to why your own king would begin the khmer chronicles from that point onwards and not from the varman line of kings? the evidence is there, how can you ignore it?
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump the precision needed to build a temple comlex based on the technique of building without mortar requires a system with the least amount of room for error. Any mistakes and the buildings will collapse. The 1-5 system is flawed. Tell 98767 slaves to take 74567 stone blocks and carve out 8769 statues. Slaves were illiterate, you can't write instructions for them to follow everything was done orally. Now assuming khmers were khom and used 1-10 system. Why revert back to a flawed 1-5 system
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump lol though looking at that it sounds like something a Roman would say. Quite naive tbh you assume the Tai were barbarians before khmers came. Like I said. We already had a fortified kingdom before the turn of the millenium, barbarians or even jungle tribes don't live in cities. We have always been theravada buddhists+brahminism. We never adopted Hinduism or mahayana buddhism like ancient khmers.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump w w w (.)asiafinest(.)com/forum/index.php?showtopic=284894&pid=4852065&mode=threaded&start=#entry4852065
if u ignore the insults there is actually a lot of info to sift through from these poeple
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump The Chinese managed to take Chiang Hung in 1296, but Mangrai immediately sent a force to retake the city. The Chinese response was delaye, and it was not until 1301 that preparations were undertaken for a major invasion of this Tai region, with the assembling of a force of twenty thousand men and ten thousand horses, reinforced by Mongol archers.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump This campaign was a diasaster for the Chinese. Their failures seem only to have emboldened the Tai, for by 1309 Chiang Mai and Chiang Hung were acting in concert to raid as far north as Wei-yuan and continued as late as 1311.Tiring of warfare, the Chinese turned to diplomacy and received tribute of tame elephants and local products from Chiang Hung and Chiang Mai in 1312. Chiang Mai sent subsequent missions to the Chinese court in 1315,
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump 1326 (when the mission was led by the King's son), 1327, 1328, 1329 and 1347. Chiang Hung was slower to give up its raids into Chinese territory, which ceased only in 1325"
Hope this helps :)
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump sadly due to myanmar government, I have not been able to find any historic records regarding this, but there are others who have the same theory. The word kampuchea also appears in myanmar as kanbawza. Now the word kampuchea itself was said to derive from a king kambu of the line of kamboja kings. Now why would the Shan name a region in their kingdom kanbawza? there is also a pagoda in myanmar with the name Kanbawza Pyi Nyein Aye Pagoda meaning "peaceful shan land pagoda"
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen interesting, yes, i have also come across a similar story. I have been living in Australia for 20 years, i never knew of how deep our Khmer history is until last few years. Sadly today, Khmer is just a piece of shiet, one of the poorest country in SE Asia and possibly one of the most corrupted country, thanks to Hun Sen.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump TBH Im more surprised as to why no one has tried to assassinate him yet. Khmers are proud and brave people, im not sure why he has been allowed to be there for so long. one life for the khmer people...
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen Not sure how much you knwo about the Khmer political affair. But Hun Sen has been in power since the fall of the Pol Pot Regime(1975) to this day, which is the reason why our land is getting smaller by days. This useless PM spend $1 million on education in 2010, yet $230 millions of military 2010. This year hes increased the budget spend even more because of the coming 2012 Election. I hope he dies soon for the sake of the nation and peace between our countries.
babibump 6 months ago
@babibump do you not find it incredible that the shan who is all the way up there would have such a strong connection with the word kamboja? strong enough to link it with the name of their people. Also another theory regarding that the shan is the name of the capital of land chenla "Van Shen" could lead to Funan and Chenla being populated by many ethnics. Civil war broke out between khmer chenla and Tai chenla. Khmers won, driving out the Tai to go north.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@babibump Khmer Surin people are proud to be khmer descent, so they should be, but they are also proud to be Thai. Thai is a national identity which for some silly reason most khmers I've come across have no idea what it means. Surin was a power base for the khmer empire. Thus highly populated by khmers. The khmer empire that was not populated by khmers is what most of Thailand now stands. Except for SE and E areas such as Surin and a lot of Isan.
KensaiZen 6 months ago
@KensaiZen In reguards to the border dispute, i think there are hidden political agenda. Like i said, Hun Sen the PM, is only interested in power and money. For that reason, he is forcing the nation to live in fear of another war. For him, the border dispute is a way for him to show off his military power to his party and to international countries. He is useless, and many Khmer and Khmer abroad hates him for whats hes done to the country. As long as he is in power, there will always be clashes
babibump 6 months ago
we can't say that muay thai is from bokator or bokator from muay thai. In fact during the war beetween thailand and khmer all the archive of thailand were burn down and long time ago the border of the country wasn't the same as it is right now. So I think there were a martial art above the muay thai and the bokator and after they separate state everybody have made their own martial art
titoyteeure 7 months ago 2
@samuraipsycho, It's not about race, it's about how well you fight. Capoeira is classified as a martial arts which was used by slaves. Do you have anything against that? Bokator wasn't a martial arts for slaves, in fact, it was used on the Battlefield.
By the way, if you are going to criticise something, at least spell it correctly. Bokator has the letter 'R' at the end.
Narcissistification 10 months ago
FUCKING BOKATO!! martial arts of slave!! Copy Muay Thai!!
samuraipsycho 1 year ago
@samuraipsycho bokator is ancient khmer martial art, search it dude. you shouldn't criticize on a martial art just because it's similar. you should say muay thai originated from bokator.
swasongha92 1 year ago 6
@samuraipsycho where the hell do you get the info on bokator being a "martial arts of slave"? FALSE. idiot.
biogaiden93 8 months ago
rattana (bokator kid) - Khraham RED
My Chai Mua - Kew BLUE
mppotion 2 years ago
those muay chaiya kicks are fast
WarrenKeingGaw 2 years ago
cuh
cambodian up lol
blue is bokator
red is my chai mua
yes i understand cambodian lol
motorworks 2 years ago
fuck you untrustedheart u jump in d ring wit 1 of dem u get knok d fuk out khmer pride
choggyfloggy 3 years ago
ahaha yeah the red guy does bokator. Lol elbow owns hard....
KmaySoulja 3 years ago
bokator kid not day, need rematch!
MyTub3 3 years ago
huh? wat the fuck r u kunt tolkin abt LMAO they good man, why dont u go there and fight 1 of them u will see if they shit or not . man khmer fighter the way they fight they all have there own way of stand like bird kham his a sick kunt . lack experience? huh? i wuoldn say that them kunt fight in a day 3 or 4 time a day
khmerDM 3 years ago
I think both of them lack experience, you can tell by their irrational actions in during the fight.
untrustedheart 3 years ago
You don;t know what you talking about kid.
aussie4rent 3 years ago
that kid is shit kun khmer fighter lol
aussie4rent 3 years ago
Violent Keigne in the face. What a knock down !
babysneiha 3 years ago
which 1 is doing Bokator?
bizzythug1 3 years ago
The one in the red Chey Ratanna I think thats how you spell his name
Chonori 3 years ago