I LOL @ the irony of a black artist pandering excuses to a mostly white, young, liberal arts degreed, Starbucks drinking, Macbook owning neo hippies as to why he chose to take a paycheck as if HE owes them something. This is what happens when black expression becomes accepted and whitewashed by the elite class. "Sawry, massa, but i'ssa needs this money, whut wuz i'ssa pose to do?"
much love for saul, but his logic is flawed. nike used him to appear radical, the existence of greenwashing negates a lot of what he's saying about those companies choices to change certain aspects of an otherwise unfair & ecocidal enterprise and that choice not being the result of an evil scheme. it's a scheme to get us to regain trust in them while they continue destructive practices.
nike still contracts in the prison system, profiting off of unpaid slave labor. how can anyone defend that?
Dear Saul: stop. The question IS why did Nike choose you? You are the best thing they could hope for, not just a well known artist to help them move shoes but a CONVERTED revolutionary, an attempt to convince the small remaining resistance. Two things are sure: 1. No revolution will start with the support of a system of which nike is the archetype. 2. Your word spinning is better left for the revolution, you have a much harder time preaching dishonesty and it shows. Your heart was missing.
It's so easy to call someone a sellout behind your computer that was probably assembled in a third world country, while drinking StarBucks Coffee and listening to some music you probably didn't paid for. How about we all start to question our own day-by-day-integrity? Life is all about compromises! Getting some dough to get a MEANINGFUL song out their to millions of people who probably never would have been exposed to it is not selling out. Saul didn't sold out, he abused the system of greed.
want change and there are selling it with suals name and all the people now think nike actually gives a sh!t about us the sheep u think that they will give up just like or that its really that easy for change. no . they will kill to make a killing in profit . i dont think hes a sell out i think he made a poor decision as weve all done and i think he knows that and if u think hes a sell out then burn all his cds art music ext that u own. or else u would be a hypocrite right? my humble opinion
his explanation we accepted right away and as u can see "unifiedpeace" defends it with the very exact words that saul said. now im in this for the change! my heart doesnt let me forget that. if u understand that then u know that he is still human. i think he should have asked for the a check and burned it because like unifiedpeace says "as long as the change happens" fu(k the beasts money i feel that he made it seem like nike wants to help us out they study our behavoir daily they know that we
sorry Saul, this is very eloquent, but I still think this is blatant cashing in. it's obvious why "Nike did a Saul Williams commercial" - they want to be hip and cutting edge by association with your music. it's good for their image and it sells more shoes. they don't give a fuck about corporate responsibility, they give a fuck about how they look, and they will spend millions on changing their image instead of increasing wages in their sweatshops. the Nike CEO hasn't even been to SE Asia..
Disappointing Saul :-( at the end of the day your signing your name to help sell a product off of the labor of humans who are not fairly paid for their labor. And you are helping disgusting free speech hating, child labor supporting people like the president of Nike to gain legitimacy. Wrong move. you don't defeat capitalism by helping it.
SOMEBODY TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK I SHOULD DO WITH THE MONEY, YES FRIEND, TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK I SHOULD DO WITH THE MONEY. Exactly how much is it gonna cost to free mumia? what's he gonna do with this freedom, talk on the radio? Radio programming is just that, a brainwashed censor defeats our purpose, to be under some freedom of speech makes me nervous, and YOU LOOKING FOR ANOTHER MARTYR IN THE FORM OF A MAN, HAIR LIKE A MANE WITH AN OUTSTRETCHED HAND...
A corporation's bottom line is responding to the whim of its shareholders: making money. Using List Of Demands in a Nike commercial is indicative of the advertisement's being bereft of the song's initial content, utilizing only its edgy image to sell an innocuous leisure shoe. Buying things and exchanging images does not amount to real participation. Also, Nike always reinforces product fetishism in its target advert demographic of impoverished, inner city, African-American youth. Just sayin'.
meh. people take too much satisfaction in being able to call someone a sellout. i say lighten up a little. why judge? you could dig up dirt on anybody... i still love his poetry, and his response was good: he didn't do a Nike commercial, Nike did a Saul Williams commercial.
im wearing nikes right now... im not a sellout and i still think saul williams is the realest...quit hating nerds. chances are you have a lot of name brand shit sitting in front of you right now.
actually that would be foul. because just doing it for the money is the DEFINITION of selling out. while i definitely agree with you, that this has a whiff of bullshit about it, just think for a minute how many people casually watching that ad, heard the song, and discovered saul williams. at the end of the day i think it was worth it.
I do, too. The more people get to taste some unfiltered Saul Williams, the better, even if its through a shoe commercial. I mean, that is how I discovered Gil Scott Heron many years ago through the revolution will not be televised ads.
But, to even have to feel like you need to justify getting a paycheck for your art is what i'm taking issue with. That act alone shows that Saul Williams was feeling insecure about alienating his fans. I'd have more respect for an artist unapologetically embracing the use of his art in the commercial realm than someone backpedaling cause they may loose cred with their fans.
gender equality, religion, poltics, vegetarianism etc. In other words I never remember hearing him say anything about sweatshops we assume that he has taken a stand on this issue when there is no evidence for it. So if some one could share with us some statements or lyrics that would show how this decision contradicts what Saul stands for it would be greatly appreciated.
I m mean Aesop Rock did a nike commercial as well. Now if someone like Sage Francis did a nike commercial i could understand why someone would accuse him of hypocrisy. In one lyric he wrote:
"Fight the war with Michael Moore in a nike Store"
In his song Narcissts he raps about how the Nike swoosh simple is nothing more than a "whip in mid swing" So, with sage it is obvious that he is against this but Saul it is more ambivalent. Saul might be proactive in some issues like....
First of all I want to thank all the critics. I think its important that we question people like Saul and his motivations for doing a Nike Commercial. However, i never read anywhere where saul has actually come out against sweatshop. If someone could point me to a song or a interview where he directly criticize MNCs for malevonent labor practices or any other companies for labor practices. I read List of Demand lyrics but cant see where the hypocrisy is coming from. Is there some evidence 4 it.
sell out is when it is all a money. he just said he is spreading knowledge through any means. watch slam stop being a pop fan and be an independent thinker.
Had it not been for the 'List of Demands' Nike commercial, I likely would never have found out about Saul Williams and his art. I have though felt, especially after seeing some of his talks to audiences, that there was a bit of hypocrisy in his message. I do agree with the compromise idea, though. It is not a matter of Saul's ideals vs Nike business protocol. It is about the integration of both and the realization that both are growing together; that we are growing together.
He sounds like a politician really, how he ducks out of the question by bring in McDees and other big name corporation. He should really feel ashamed.
Who cares if Nike is only starting to improve worker conditions so that they don't ruin their image so that they can still sell shoes and make money, the point is that they're starting to improve working conditions.
McDonalds will only sell veggie burgers to make money, but the point is that they're selling veggie burgers.
Make it profitable for corporations to be morally accountable, and they will do so. Who cares if it's for the money as long as the change happens, the good is done.
a sneaker costs nike pennies to make but they turn & sell it for hundreds of dollars, but pay their slave laborers peanuts while stealing their natural resources saul u sold out. smh
yeah fuck nike. but dude, wise up. pull your head out of your ass. Yeah nike upsells their products like every other company in the world. its called making money/capitalism. let me guess, you're a spread the wealth person? If i'm lazy/disenfranchised, i still reap the benefits of people who make money? Where's my welfare check?
The irony alone of them using a song titled, List of Demands (Reparations) cracks me up.But Saul did the right thing. Why not use the power of the system to be you soapbox to reach millions? It was an ethical compromise on Saul's part but if you not willing to compromise with the system nothing will ever change.
Hell fucking yes. I agree 100% with what he says about cynicism at the end of this. Im sick of all of you bitches out there who wine, complain, and sort of have this blind-rebellion about everything. We need to rebel, but what kind of world are we offering instead? Take the next step in the process damnit!
Greenwashing and Whitewashing. Wal-mart is not going green. And Saul, Nike chose you, not because of your message, but because you can be their latest fad. After you get your 5 minutes of fame, you will be tossed on the curb.
Has anyone seen the Nike commercial? It does not raise any awareness at all of child labor. Since this commercial, nothing has changed. Nike still employs sweat shop labor. Wal-Mart is still evil.
No woostopalypse, Nike does not raise awareness but Saul's music does. It's not Saul's fans who need to be exposed to sweatshop discussions...it's Nike fans, and i think that's his point! that's why he agreed to do the commercial. Not because he thought Nike would change all that much, but because hopefully Nike wearers who see the commercials would be exposed to the truth about their purchases when they say "Who's that song by". look it's all over his videos on youtube!!!! That's his point
you weren't listening to what he had to say. it's about breaking down walls and speaking with those individuals who run the show at nike, etc. also, Williams will not be a fad nor be tossed to the curb. His ideas and words are far to powerful. like he was saying, it's your synicism which stops you from thinking beyond these cliches.
Have you seen the commercial? It has nothing to do with Saul's message. Nike is marketing Saul because one of his songs has a catchy tune. Nike could careless about his message, and no one watching a nike commercial will understand his message.
I agree Saul does have good messages to spread, but he can do it without affiliating himself with the poster-boy for exploitation. It is barbaric
Saul has something money-grubbing Nike wants, therefore Saul has a unique opportunity to use that something as leverage to get what Saul wants: ie. corporate responsibility. Yeah, he's not tearing down capitalism with his bare hands, but then again, are us naysayers really doing anything? This should be liberating. This is an example of an artist wielding power over corporate America. Isn't that what we want?
For those claiming Saul's "excuses" are bullshit, you need to pay closer attention to what Saul is saying. He isn't making excuses. Nor is he saying corporations have become warm and fuzzy and caring. He knows that corporations don't give a shit about anything but where they can make another buck. In fact, he's counting on it. The only way to fight greed is to turn that greed against itself.
you notice he only addressed the issue of sweat shops and not the equally important factor that nike are a fucking corporate conglomorate at the forefront of capitalism selling shitty products en masse to a herd of zombie cunts with no brain and big salaries? He's smart enough to know he's selling out but too much of a sellout to admit it! grr and progress doesn't need to be slow "there ain't no power like the power of the people and the power of the people don't stop".
Nike have always produced quality products, its one of the reasons they got popular.. and change doesn't hav to be slow, but then, rome wasn't built in a day.. change takes as long as it takes.. but if you don't start, you'll never finish
I reaaly like Saul's poetry it makes sense, unlike the crap he talks here in defence if nike. I wish the questioner had asked the more pertinent question - "how much did you get paid for the Nike commercial".
Wow, I really had Nike all wrong. I guess in the early ninties, when Nike released limited edition shoes to play into a culture that freed consumers from the burdens of day to day life by giving them the oppertunity to be shot over their kicks. Manucfactering the desire to pay 250$ for Air Jordans is a great for communities.
"ask yourself not why saul williams did a nike commercial but why nike did a saul williams commercial" that sounds to me like the definition of selling out and self promotion. i dont buy this explanation and i think others do just because they are under the power of his words.
Why did nike do a saul williams commercial? Ummmmm, to cash in on cultural currency in order to market their brand, duh. Oh and its still a Nike commercial, but lets collectively stick our head in the sand.
Nike is VERY SLOWLY but surely starting to change.
Of Course they are only starting to do that because people are not buying their shoes because of the sweatshops etc.
But it doesn't fucking matter why they are starting to change, the only thing that matters is that they are starting.
Just like, of course mcdonalds is only selling veggie burgers to make money. But that doesn't matter, what matters is that they are selling veggie burgers. Look at the bigger picture. They are changing.
You really expect us to buy that? You're giving the Nike corporate line and anyone with half a brain can see through it. Companies like Nike create the need for sweatshops. further, everyone has to buy into the system a little, or they'd die. but there's a BIG fucking difference between someone who occasionally buys something corporate, and someone who claims to stand for something and has a lot of influence letting a fucked up corporation like nike use their art, and then defending them!
I agree with nike not changing one bit, but look how people discuss this and listen for the first time to saul williams songs. His songs don't preach consent with things like nike! That does sound like Nike doing a Saul Williams commercial. The education spreads. As a worker who witnesses change in the city, he's right w/ getting the chance to discuss it. That's headway. I'd expand but not enough room here. Change happens VERY slowly. W/ Cooperation you gotta find a way to scratch their back
I agree with cclmnop here... sadly progress is slow and being stubborn won't help, you have to compromise and not expect change over night so lets ride this "be green and happy" trend for all its worth
To everyone criticizing Saul you should research more into the issues an listen to what hes saying. Everyone can agree with supply and demand and it is the demand of the consumers which controls the corporations. Until people start demanding more of the corporations nothing will happen and people have been fighting and protesting hard for the past whatever amount of time to stop nike due to their unethical bussiness methods. Adidas has been killing nike in sales simply because nike was the one
it's funny how this one man, a man of peace, has said a lot of militant and harsh words with regards to the corporations he now supports and advertises.
yeah, i mean i don't really buy his excuses for supporting nike. truthfully i'm angry at him. but that doesn't mean that now i believe he is an evil person. obviously he's no ghandi. and even if he is, he's stiil human, and human beings make bad choices. obviously this is one if his.
Fatal616, why does it matter that the company is only "making their veggie burgers" for money? The important thing is that "the veggie burgers" are being made.
The important thing is that the change is happening, so why does it matter what the corporations motivation is to change?
Furthermore, you don't believe one man can change something? One person CAN make change happen. Perhaps not easily, but it is possible for one person to make a change.
oh and the reason mcdonalds offers a veggie burger is not for the better of you or i SAUL, its because they are trying to reach all markets to get MONEY. They all sit at their meeting tables and go "what type of people do not buy from us that we could appeal to?" oh thats right, vegetarians hate us! lets make a veggie burger so they start buying from us! lets add fun toys to the happy meals so kids will cry to their mothers to go buy one. lets add play centers so they keep coming back. etc etc
hes so full of shit. HE SOLD OUT, not to mention he backs obama who wants to bomb pakistan. come on, who sings "sunday bloody sunday" and then supports the war. what a fake. its sad trent reznor helped make him big just to see him turn into this.
I dont have a problem with artists licesning their music for commercials. Honestly if nike really arent doing anything sinister at the moment you dont really gain anything from turning them down except indie cred.
But honestly I would have respected him more if he's responded to claims he sold out with:
"Sure I did, and now Im the sellout with a fat paycheck, fuck you"
oh, and libertyisdead, u2 did an entire tour promoting k-mart. tell me now that "sunday bloody sunday" wasn't written by corporate, capitalistic, sellouts. btw, popmart was an awesome show.
wow. some of you guys really don't see it do you? it's so obvious. this is a war. he knows this is a war. and he's infiltrating their market to send the message of defiance, change through love, and evolving the way we think. why do you think he picked "list of demands"? he's always been smart and passionate about what he does. now, he's doing it better.
If you have anything more than a 1 room house/apartment with ONLY a bed, fridge, one light, and a toilet, and just enough clothes to get by the week, then you are a consumer. Seeing as how 99% of us have more than that, We are all consumers. I am, you are, and everyone
you know is. If you have more than what you need, you are a consumer. So until you get rid of EVERYTHING except for what you need, then you are also a consumer.. Everyone talks against consumerism (including myself, and all of you) but almost no one will give up their shit. (including myself, and all of you)
how much money did you get Saul? I think Saul's starting to emit a lesser frequency. Saul your were going to have a whole army by the time you were true? well you lost a soldier! Stick to your ideals, but now Saul has become what he most hates. Saul's rhetoric is laughable. Capitalist fuck! I wish i never suggested to Saul to cover 'Sunday Bloody Sunday' at Electric picnic 2006. To sum it up Saul Williams is an opportunist who hangs with Nas spouting Roc a Fella masonic Hand signs. Hypocrite!
nike...notorious for sweat shops...you can address the issue in the most roundabout way possible and twist the situation, but I dont think there is any way he could justify this. he is a hypocrite.
When an idie artist goes mainstream in any sort of way his/her/their original audience always screams "sellout".
Saul is able to garner more exposure and reach a larger audience through the Nike spot. He hasn't sold out to corporate greed, but is seeking to spread the message beyond the already clued-in few.
To blast Nike means you, yourself should stop being a consumer. What about half of the stuff in your house that is originally from somewhere they pay workers cents or few $ per hour?
Saul didn't sell out, and even if YOU think he did:
Let's ASSUME for a minute that saul did the commercial for nefarious reasons. Now, assuming that were the case we could consider that as one act of wrong. Now you would have to consider all of the right he has done. Would one act of wrong cancel out everything that he has accomplished or helped bring about? Of course not.
And that's all assuming that he did do the commercial just for money, which is something I highly doubt.
yeah because trent told him to do it and they hoped it would sell better that way then in stores WHICH IT DID because it made a lot more people go to shows which brings in the real money.
wow he's so full of shit right here. i can't stand it. To all you people saying he needs the money, that's just wrong. Saul makes plenty of dough from his book deals and various appearances around the world. He did not need to sell out to Nike. My jaw dropped when i saw the ad. It's very disappointing.
god money's not concerned about the sick among the pure
god money let's go dancing on the backs of the bruised
god money's not one to choose
saul should take a cue from brother trent.
theres nothing wrong w/taking money but you have to know where you're taking it from and where in turn the money you make them goes. "follow the money," uttered the man...
The situationists talked a bit about this, and what Saul williams is up to when they talk about subversion and recuperation. The idea that an organisation built on the unfair exchange of labour (nike workers cannot afford the products they make), is "showing improvement" is laughable. New Subversive ideas are created at grass routes level all the time, corporations try to nick these ideas and make them coporate, like with greenwashing, or Saul Williams. That is recuperation.
Relying on the top to address the issues raised against them only leaves too much room for deception. Do It Yourself, Do As Much As We Can Ourselves, Say Yes To What's In Our Own Hearts! Anarchy! Anything else is abuse! You can get on with buying it, I'm still working on saying no to bullshit. Make it, don't buy it -as much as possible! Real changes occur in appeals within our homes and neighborhoods, not removed representatives!
getting paid is one thing, but where is that money coming from. who the hell buys a veggie burger from mcdonalds (i know its an example) anyway.... ok, anyhow, here's the bottom line there are certain giant entities that people should stay away from, esp. if your MO is talking against greed, oppression, and globalization. sure, do commercials get paid, but tell us the truth, we're not stupid. I don't buy it.
Just own up and say you did for the paper, and not cos Nike is being more "responsible" and shifting the way they operate and that you support that. You're telling me you're going to hold Nike accountable to their practices? Just tell us the truth, Mike Doughty did when Soul Coughing did a Gap ad.
I just think it was a very questionable thing to do esp. now during the times of the Olympics, a long time partner of Nike, which are being held in China. China, a country who have for years been human rights violators, to not only Tibetans and Burmese, but in many instances, worse, to their own people. And we know the heavy investments China has made in Sudan, a country where slavery more or less still exists:
Don't think that these instances are exclusive from each other, they all play a part in current state of things. Look, we're not gonna take down corporations, governments, practices, etc. But, we can openly say to certain entities I don't agree with your all your practices and I don't agree with the people, corporations, and institutions you do business with. And by taking a check by them, you are doing exactly the opposite.
i meant of course major corporations and large scale companies that have generally spent more time trying to make a product cheaply and mass produce it then making a quality product. i.e. Nike (Sweatshops anyone?) or McDonalds.
Not to mention the hell they raise on our small economy's and the class separation and racism they promote... you know... the types of things touched on in 'List of Demands'... a song about reparations for hells sake.
For the record, this isn't something new. Saul has been a sellout for along time. His last 3 books were published by MTV (to which he also spewed his now characteristic mantra of I'm USING them to get MY message out, as if MTV's or Nike are really that desperate that they NEED Saul Williams)
Companies offering more responsible choices doesn't improve things, it just waters em down. you get cheap overprocessed veggie burgers, or organic labels that don't mean shit.
Your "arguments" have been dismissed with all of the consideration that they deserve. Your admitted ignorance of the concept of "rationalization" prevents you from understanding the response.
Are you stupid? I didn't try to twist anything, the word "rationalize" comes from the word "rational."
Also, what my "bizarre argument" was, was that more often than not, "rationalize" is used in the way that support my argument, so it was silly to try to put a negative connotation on it.
YOU HAVE STILL YET TO ANSWER WHY IT IS THAT YOU WERE UNABLE TO PROVIDE ANY SORT OF LOGICAL RESPONSE TO ALMOST ALL OF MY POINTS IN THE PREVIOUS CONVERSATION, and since you did not, it IS obvious that I won.
I also find it rather convenient that once I proved that you cherrypicked your definitions, you attempt to drop that point altogether.
In our First argument, you did not even attempt to counter my points, and now in this second conversation you attempt to topic change back to the first one when you realize that you've again Lost.
Now I believe that we've both sufficiently used enough commenting space to show what our opinions are. If you wish to further get schooled, send it in a message.
There's no argument about the definition of a word. I used the primary definition, and the meaning is clear from the context. You then went and grabbed the meaning of a different word and posted it, in an attempt to twist what I said and make some kind of bizarre argument so that you could once again declare yourself the "winner." You're certainly not the brightest bulb around. Probably explains why you're so easily led around by your infatuation with this celebrity.
How do you not understand that this is a different conversation/argument?
One was about whether or not your claim that saul williams is a "sell-out" was true or false.
This new one is about the definition of a word.
Those are two distinctly seperate topics and two distinctly seperate conversations.
As to you saying that it's "laughable" when I say that I demolished your arguments, I have one question: Why then were you not able to come up with ANY way whatsoever to even attempt countering me
I never said I had better things to do. Go back and read my comment, I said that the conversation was over and that I had undeniably torn apart your entire "argument," and that You never had even attempted to look at my points logically, and did not counter them.
Also, where the fuck do you think the word rationalize comes from? It comes from the word "Rational," AND YOU CHERRYPICKED which definitions to show for "Rantionalize," omitting evidence from your own case to make it seem stronger.
So if the conversation is over, why are you still talking to me?
And I didn't cherrypick anything. I had to explain to you what a "rationalization" is, because, as was the case with "selling out," there are certain words and phrases that you simply don't comprehend.
Because this is a seperate conversation. The previous conversation was about you claiming Saul to be a sell out, and not being able to logically back your claim up and having your entire argument utterly demolished.
This is a seperate conversation about definitions.
Really you didn't cherry pick the difnition?
go to dictionary . c o m and look it up. Definitions 1 and 7 support your train of thought. Definitions 2,3,4, and 8 support mine. 5 and 6 are neutral to this specific topic.
No, this is the same conversation. Williams is a sell-out. The only people denying it are Saul and his apologists. It's quite common for artists who sell out to make weak rationalizations for doing so. Your parroting of those rationalizations and then declaring it a "demolishing" of his critics is laughable.
By the way, glad I could help you find the right definition. Let me know if you need additional assistance in the future.
By the way, if you're going to correct someone, at least get your facts straight. Of course, to properly use a reference material like a dictionary, you have to at the very least know which word to look up . . .
"Selling out means you are selling out your morals/beliefs for money, which Saul didnt do"
Really? So then I guess it's just coincidental that, after taking the corporate blood money, Saul's message is now, "Everyone should go to Nikedotcom and see what a great company this is."
I love how you guys think accepting money means selling out. That is not what selling out means. Selling out means you are selling out your morals/beliefs for money, which Saul didnt do
Seeing as how you continually neglect addressing my arguments or points, It is fairly clear that this argument is over. Your arguments seem to consist of nothing but attempted insults, and any time you have brought up something logical, it has been refuted and you do not address these refutations. It is fairly clear that you have not been able to logically support your stance on this issue. Kay, thanks, bye.
The problem with Saul is that he wants it both ways. He wants the perks, financial and otherwise, that come with being a Nike spokesman, and he also wants to be taken seriously as an artist and a social critic. Sorry, Saul, it don't work that way. At least not with those who refuse to be apologists for your every move.
He wants what now? Oh, So now you read minds? You know what Saul Williams wants? This is physically impossible, no one knows of anyone's thoughts but their own.
No, I said that Saul is using the company to expose his work to those who need to be exposed to it. You cannot deny that Saul's poetry has changed the lives of many for the better, and as such, exposing to a broader audience allows for more people to embrace and possibly be changed for the better by his work. His books can be found and read in libraries for free, and he has also released ALOT of free songs/poems, so you cannot say that attempting to broaden his audience is a ploy to make money.
I see. Nike didn't cut Saul a check so that they could co-opt his song and use it to sell shoes. They cut him a check so that he could teach them how to behave like human beings. Right.
You know, it's one thing to sell out. What's really despicable is when sell-outs like Saul Williams and his apologists try to rationalize it away as some great act of humanity. Pretty pathetic.
Oh, So you're not going to attempt to logically counter my points? You're just going to call me pathetic? Ok, well that makes this all easier.
In argumentation, Silence is Concension. That is to say, if someone brings up a point against your argument and you do not address that point, then you concede it. You have not addressed how any of my arguments or points are logically flawed. Therefore, you concede to all of my points.. unless you change your mind and actually address them.
You have, however, repeated your own point of "Saul selling out to Nike." You also brought up a new point in your second paragraph.
To re-address your first point (which I have already refuted, and since you did not even attempt to counter my refutations, they stand.) You say that "Saul selled out to Nike," As I have already stated it is in fact Saul who is using Nike. He's using Nike to get his work known to those who need to know it.
He's also helping them take the first steps to becoming a better and more responsible company by helping to expose the movement of companies becoming resposible. If he had immediately said "No" to Nike then the door would not be open to talk and try to help them become better.
Your new point is basically saying that anyone who disagrees with you on whether or not someone is a sell-out is despicable. This point works against you, showing that you are intolerant of differing opinion.
In your second point(and paragraph) you have shown that yo are intolerant of differing opinion, which also shows that you will let your intolerances blind you from the fact that someone who disagrees with you may actually have a good argument, and as such, instead of actually responding to their argument and points, you simply dismiss it, assuming that it is of no merit.. You have demonstrated that by not addressing my arguments or points.
Saul is not a sell out for this. I like how some people like to be "revolutionists" simply to be different and hip. I thought this was about change. Change is occurring--hop on, do something about it or let it happen. Just don't be ignorant about the mission.
Bull fucking shit. Nike doesn't give two shits about "Sauls line of thinking" He makes music that can help them make money, and that is what they care about. They didn't have some revelation and decide that their ways are wrong
jesus christ it amazes me how much people buy into this bullshit.
So, taking Nike's blood money isn't selling out because corporations like Nike, McDonalds, Wal-Mart, etc. aren't all that bad, and, besides, it's just cynical to criticize these benevolent companies for the awful things they do, since their heart is in the right place. And everyone should go to Nikedotcom because if you really want to know what a corporation is up to, the best place to get that info is from the official website of the company itself. The stink of sellout is thick on Saul . . .
Nike is not using Saul.. Saul is using Nike. Don't you realize that?
Now, more people(and they also happen to be the same people that NEED to hear Saul) have heard Saul. Saul has changed many people's lives, and the more that hear and listen to him, the bigger the chance is that even more people will change for the better.
"Saul has changed many people's lives, and the more that hear and listen to him, the bigger the chance is that even more people will change for the better. "
Erm, he is a very good poet, with some clever, esorteric and medatative lyrics. I enjoy listening to him, He has not changed my life, and he is not the Messiah.
The majority of people that make Nike trainers can't understand Saul Williams as they speak a different language.
Say you knew a person who was really fucking up their life, and in doing so, fucking the lives of other people as well. Now say that this person comes to you, and asks you to help them take the first steps towards changing their ways.
Many would argue that the person doesn't deserve your help, and if it only affected that single person you could make the choice to not help him. But helping him would also improve the lives of the OTHER PEOPLE he was hurting, so you have to help.
So, What I'm getting at with that nice little story is this:
Nike has made some bad choices that have negatively impacted the lives of alot of it's workers.
Nike has bought into Saul's brand of thinking, and asked him to help them take steps in the right direction and help them regain some credibility. Now, Nike may not deserve Saul's help... but Saul must do all he can to try to help them become better because if he doesn't, then they will remain the same and make the same mistakes.
This is ridiculous! It's exaclty the same as oil companies "investing in our greener future" regaining credibility can be done through lies, it's what politicians and corperations do the world over, it's what Nike are doing now. I like the idea of Nike keeping Saul around after his contract runs out, as an ethical adviser, I like it because they are going to drop him like a hot potato. I also like they way you have compared a giant corporation to a person in need. you're living in Cuckoo land.
Thanks a lot for posting this.
doctorcropcircles 2 weeks ago
nike claiming to be ethical is like obama shutting down guantanimo or troops out of iraq. beautiful lies.
colliderscopic 3 months ago
I LOL @ the irony of a black artist pandering excuses to a mostly white, young, liberal arts degreed, Starbucks drinking, Macbook owning neo hippies as to why he chose to take a paycheck as if HE owes them something. This is what happens when black expression becomes accepted and whitewashed by the elite class. "Sawry, massa, but i'ssa needs this money, whut wuz i'ssa pose to do?"
Broyale26 9 months ago
much love for saul, but his logic is flawed. nike used him to appear radical, the existence of greenwashing negates a lot of what he's saying about those companies choices to change certain aspects of an otherwise unfair & ecocidal enterprise and that choice not being the result of an evil scheme. it's a scheme to get us to regain trust in them while they continue destructive practices.
nike still contracts in the prison system, profiting off of unpaid slave labor. how can anyone defend that?
feralflowers 10 months ago 3
what has he dine since?
biennialist 10 months ago
Dear Saul: stop. The question IS why did Nike choose you? You are the best thing they could hope for, not just a well known artist to help them move shoes but a CONVERTED revolutionary, an attempt to convince the small remaining resistance. Two things are sure: 1. No revolution will start with the support of a system of which nike is the archetype. 2. Your word spinning is better left for the revolution, you have a much harder time preaching dishonesty and it shows. Your heart was missing.
mungbotmedia 1 year ago 2
@mungbotmedia
he's a politician inside a performer...
they chose him for two reasons: he's underground and he's black.
nike have always exploited black slaves and marketed to black 'slaves'.
they are a racist white company making billions of dollars expoiting black people at both ends.
pure evil
colliderscopic 3 months ago
this whole video could be six seconds:
"as to why i took the nike contract... bitch i wanted to get paid."
Yorranne1 1 year ago
@Yorranne1 I would thumbs up this, except you used the b word. But i feel your sentiment.... what did he say, Nas what?
biennialist 10 months ago
It's so easy to call someone a sellout behind your computer that was probably assembled in a third world country, while drinking StarBucks Coffee and listening to some music you probably didn't paid for. How about we all start to question our own day-by-day-integrity? Life is all about compromises! Getting some dough to get a MEANINGFUL song out their to millions of people who probably never would have been exposed to it is not selling out. Saul didn't sold out, he abused the system of greed.
Fujicoolness 1 year ago 4
my bad read the bottom paragraph first or else its just nonesense
siteone652 1 year ago
want change and there are selling it with suals name and all the people now think nike actually gives a sh!t about us the sheep u think that they will give up just like or that its really that easy for change. no . they will kill to make a killing in profit . i dont think hes a sell out i think he made a poor decision as weve all done and i think he knows that and if u think hes a sell out then burn all his cds art music ext that u own. or else u would be a hypocrite right? my humble opinion
siteone652 1 year ago
his explanation we accepted right away and as u can see "unifiedpeace" defends it with the very exact words that saul said. now im in this for the change! my heart doesnt let me forget that. if u understand that then u know that he is still human. i think he should have asked for the a check and burned it because like unifiedpeace says "as long as the change happens" fu(k the beasts money i feel that he made it seem like nike wants to help us out they study our behavoir daily they know that we
siteone652 1 year ago
sorry Saul, this is very eloquent, but I still think this is blatant cashing in. it's obvious why "Nike did a Saul Williams commercial" - they want to be hip and cutting edge by association with your music. it's good for their image and it sells more shoes. they don't give a fuck about corporate responsibility, they give a fuck about how they look, and they will spend millions on changing their image instead of increasing wages in their sweatshops. the Nike CEO hasn't even been to SE Asia..
GoggleEyedOne 1 year ago
Disappointing Saul :-( at the end of the day your signing your name to help sell a product off of the labor of humans who are not fairly paid for their labor. And you are helping disgusting free speech hating, child labor supporting people like the president of Nike to gain legitimacy. Wrong move. you don't defeat capitalism by helping it.
red2strike 1 year ago
SOMEBODY TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK I SHOULD DO WITH THE MONEY, YES FRIEND, TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK I SHOULD DO WITH THE MONEY. Exactly how much is it gonna cost to free mumia? what's he gonna do with this freedom, talk on the radio? Radio programming is just that, a brainwashed censor defeats our purpose, to be under some freedom of speech makes me nervous, and YOU LOOKING FOR ANOTHER MARTYR IN THE FORM OF A MAN, HAIR LIKE A MANE WITH AN OUTSTRETCHED HAND...
streetlight13 1 year ago
'nothing's sacred.'
lxvlx 1 year ago
if one person was able to listen to coded language via watching his nike commercial, i think it was worth it
cdphatty 1 year ago
guy is a fkn joke
cmankman123 1 year ago
A corporation's bottom line is responding to the whim of its shareholders: making money. Using List Of Demands in a Nike commercial is indicative of the advertisement's being bereft of the song's initial content, utilizing only its edgy image to sell an innocuous leisure shoe. Buying things and exchanging images does not amount to real participation. Also, Nike always reinforces product fetishism in its target advert demographic of impoverished, inner city, African-American youth. Just sayin'.
PinkWarhol 1 year ago 2
@PinkWarhol word up.
ooooooooooooO111 1 year ago
FUCKING SELL OUT BITCH
HumanAccount 2 years ago
sellout.
TerrKattok 2 years ago
meh. people take too much satisfaction in being able to call someone a sellout. i say lighten up a little. why judge? you could dig up dirt on anybody... i still love his poetry, and his response was good: he didn't do a Nike commercial, Nike did a Saul Williams commercial.
Bizzlefrits 2 years ago
im wearing nikes right now... im not a sellout and i still think saul williams is the realest...quit hating nerds. chances are you have a lot of name brand shit sitting in front of you right now.
xxxfeoxxx 2 years ago
I completely agree, sitting here listening to diy music while typing on a brand name laptop.
upthebikez 2 years ago
Man he sure sounds like a corporate rep for Nike.
Just fucking say Nike paid you for your art. No harm, no foul. Take the money and run, I say.
Broyale26 2 years ago 7
@Broyale26
actually that would be foul. because just doing it for the money is the DEFINITION of selling out. while i definitely agree with you, that this has a whiff of bullshit about it, just think for a minute how many people casually watching that ad, heard the song, and discovered saul williams. at the end of the day i think it was worth it.
chefawkes 1 year ago
@chefawkes
I do, too. The more people get to taste some unfiltered Saul Williams, the better, even if its through a shoe commercial. I mean, that is how I discovered Gil Scott Heron many years ago through the revolution will not be televised ads.
Broyale26 1 year ago
@chefawkes
But, to even have to feel like you need to justify getting a paycheck for your art is what i'm taking issue with. That act alone shows that Saul Williams was feeling insecure about alienating his fans. I'd have more respect for an artist unapologetically embracing the use of his art in the commercial realm than someone backpedaling cause they may loose cred with their fans.
Broyale26 1 year ago
@Broyale26
Thats what im saying.
All of his "fans" that dont want him to get paid arnt really fans.
bjahava 9 months ago
fake. sellout.
dingodingding 2 years ago
gender equality, religion, poltics, vegetarianism etc. In other words I never remember hearing him say anything about sweatshops we assume that he has taken a stand on this issue when there is no evidence for it. So if some one could share with us some statements or lyrics that would show how this decision contradicts what Saul stands for it would be greatly appreciated.
Sagefrakrobatik 2 years ago
I m mean Aesop Rock did a nike commercial as well. Now if someone like Sage Francis did a nike commercial i could understand why someone would accuse him of hypocrisy. In one lyric he wrote:
"Fight the war with Michael Moore in a nike Store"
In his song Narcissts he raps about how the Nike swoosh simple is nothing more than a "whip in mid swing" So, with sage it is obvious that he is against this but Saul it is more ambivalent. Saul might be proactive in some issues like....
Sagefrakrobatik 2 years ago
First of all I want to thank all the critics. I think its important that we question people like Saul and his motivations for doing a Nike Commercial. However, i never read anywhere where saul has actually come out against sweatshop. If someone could point me to a song or a interview where he directly criticize MNCs for malevonent labor practices or any other companies for labor practices. I read List of Demand lyrics but cant see where the hypocrisy is coming from. Is there some evidence 4 it.
Sagefrakrobatik 2 years ago
He's a sell-out with a tendency for mindless babble.
Anyone seen the video "Saul Williams Speaks On Niggy Tardust?" That's why you shouldn't try drugs kids.
I like his pop hit List of Demands though...
dingodingding 2 years ago
sell out is when it is all a money. he just said he is spreading knowledge through any means. watch slam stop being a pop fan and be an independent thinker.
JonEVoodou 2 years ago
Had it not been for the 'List of Demands' Nike commercial, I likely would never have found out about Saul Williams and his art. I have though felt, especially after seeing some of his talks to audiences, that there was a bit of hypocrisy in his message. I do agree with the compromise idea, though. It is not a matter of Saul's ideals vs Nike business protocol. It is about the integration of both and the realization that both are growing together; that we are growing together.
pwnayr 2 years ago
He sounds like a politician really, how he ducks out of the question by bring in McDees and other big name corporation. He should really feel ashamed.
Sonorite 2 years ago
its because your cool. thats why they got you to do the commercial.
the question of why you did the commercial is viable. does he believe he changed minds through the commercial?
chaser355 2 years ago
Who cares if Nike is only starting to improve worker conditions so that they don't ruin their image so that they can still sell shoes and make money, the point is that they're starting to improve working conditions.
McDonalds will only sell veggie burgers to make money, but the point is that they're selling veggie burgers.
Make it profitable for corporations to be morally accountable, and they will do so. Who cares if it's for the money as long as the change happens, the good is done.
unifiedpeace 2 years ago 10
a sneaker costs nike pennies to make but they turn & sell it for hundreds of dollars, but pay their slave laborers peanuts while stealing their natural resources saul u sold out. smh
KARASUNSTAR 2 years ago
yeah fuck nike. but dude, wise up. pull your head out of your ass. Yeah nike upsells their products like every other company in the world. its called making money/capitalism. let me guess, you're a spread the wealth person? If i'm lazy/disenfranchised, i still reap the benefits of people who make money? Where's my welfare check?
taspea2 2 years ago
but not every capitalistic company uses slave labor to make their products dumbazz. :)
KARASUNSTAR 2 years ago 3
saul sold out on the nike thing, he is a master of words so yea he can make anything believable.
but he is sellout plain & simple.
KARASUNSTAR 2 years ago
The irony alone of them using a song titled, List of Demands (Reparations) cracks me up.But Saul did the right thing. Why not use the power of the system to be you soapbox to reach millions? It was an ethical compromise on Saul's part but if you not willing to compromise with the system nothing will ever change.
aypwreck 2 years ago 2
they hired a really good spokesperson
ChurchofMe88 2 years ago
Hell fucking yes. I agree 100% with what he says about cynicism at the end of this. Im sick of all of you bitches out there who wine, complain, and sort of have this blind-rebellion about everything. We need to rebel, but what kind of world are we offering instead? Take the next step in the process damnit!
AttunedFlux 3 years ago 3
as "revolutionaries", how do we use the current system to pursue our agenda?
I think Saul is suggesting we co-opt their shit, make it ours.
ThoughtControl 3 years ago
Greenwashing and Whitewashing. Wal-mart is not going green. And Saul, Nike chose you, not because of your message, but because you can be their latest fad. After you get your 5 minutes of fame, you will be tossed on the curb.
Has anyone seen the Nike commercial? It does not raise any awareness at all of child labor. Since this commercial, nothing has changed. Nike still employs sweat shop labor. Wal-Mart is still evil.
woostopalypse 3 years ago
No woostopalypse, Nike does not raise awareness but Saul's music does. It's not Saul's fans who need to be exposed to sweatshop discussions...it's Nike fans, and i think that's his point! that's why he agreed to do the commercial. Not because he thought Nike would change all that much, but because hopefully Nike wearers who see the commercials would be exposed to the truth about their purchases when they say "Who's that song by". look it's all over his videos on youtube!!!! That's his point
cclmnop 3 years ago
Comment removed
brandoning 3 years ago
you weren't listening to what he had to say. it's about breaking down walls and speaking with those individuals who run the show at nike, etc. also, Williams will not be a fad nor be tossed to the curb. His ideas and words are far to powerful. like he was saying, it's your synicism which stops you from thinking beyond these cliches.
brandoning 3 years ago
Have you seen the commercial? It has nothing to do with Saul's message. Nike is marketing Saul because one of his songs has a catchy tune. Nike could careless about his message, and no one watching a nike commercial will understand his message.
I agree Saul does have good messages to spread, but he can do it without affiliating himself with the poster-boy for exploitation. It is barbaric
woostopalypse 3 years ago
Saul has something money-grubbing Nike wants, therefore Saul has a unique opportunity to use that something as leverage to get what Saul wants: ie. corporate responsibility. Yeah, he's not tearing down capitalism with his bare hands, but then again, are us naysayers really doing anything? This should be liberating. This is an example of an artist wielding power over corporate America. Isn't that what we want?
1dimensionalman 3 years ago 3
For those claiming Saul's "excuses" are bullshit, you need to pay closer attention to what Saul is saying. He isn't making excuses. Nor is he saying corporations have become warm and fuzzy and caring. He knows that corporations don't give a shit about anything but where they can make another buck. In fact, he's counting on it. The only way to fight greed is to turn that greed against itself.
1dimensionalman 3 years ago 4
did trent reznor produce the song?
what would trent say?
StayDefiant 3 years ago
you notice he only addressed the issue of sweat shops and not the equally important factor that nike are a fucking corporate conglomorate at the forefront of capitalism selling shitty products en masse to a herd of zombie cunts with no brain and big salaries? He's smart enough to know he's selling out but too much of a sellout to admit it! grr and progress doesn't need to be slow "there ain't no power like the power of the people and the power of the people don't stop".
jamieleesis 3 years ago
Nike have always produced quality products, its one of the reasons they got popular.. and change doesn't hav to be slow, but then, rome wasn't built in a day.. change takes as long as it takes.. but if you don't start, you'll never finish
BunmiHazzan 3 years ago
I reaaly like Saul's poetry it makes sense, unlike the crap he talks here in defence if nike. I wish the questioner had asked the more pertinent question - "how much did you get paid for the Nike commercial".
you have dissapointed me Saul.
loz4545 3 years ago
Wow, I really had Nike all wrong. I guess in the early ninties, when Nike released limited edition shoes to play into a culture that freed consumers from the burdens of day to day life by giving them the oppertunity to be shot over their kicks. Manucfactering the desire to pay 250$ for Air Jordans is a great for communities.
joshsowords 3 years ago
"ask yourself not why saul williams did a nike commercial but why nike did a saul williams commercial" that sounds to me like the definition of selling out and self promotion. i dont buy this explanation and i think others do just because they are under the power of his words.
Blinkingts 3 years ago
yes exactly!
billgermany2000 3 years ago 2
Why did nike do a saul williams commercial? Ummmmm, to cash in on cultural currency in order to market their brand, duh. Oh and its still a Nike commercial, but lets collectively stick our head in the sand.
joshsowords 3 years ago 2
Hah ya right joshsowords,
Are you suggesting that Nike is just now targeting the Black community?!! whatever.
cclmnop 3 years ago
@Blinkingts right on man.
lxvlx 1 year ago
This was in AZ, at Phoenix College for Liberal Arts. I was there! He was awesome.
cclmnop 3 years ago
Nike is VERY SLOWLY but surely starting to change.
Of Course they are only starting to do that because people are not buying their shoes because of the sweatshops etc.
But it doesn't fucking matter why they are starting to change, the only thing that matters is that they are starting.
Just like, of course mcdonalds is only selling veggie burgers to make money. But that doesn't matter, what matters is that they are selling veggie burgers. Look at the bigger picture. They are changing.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago 3
exactly!
cclmnop 3 years ago
Looks like you just like to argue :P ..... lol..... I've met your kind before. Tell your fiance good luck !
Jimmyjewels 3 years ago
for people to get in a hissy fit over a fucking commercial is ridiculous
calm the fuck down
poopinisnice 3 years ago 3
Why's it sideways?
andygotagun 3 years ago
You really expect us to buy that? You're giving the Nike corporate line and anyone with half a brain can see through it. Companies like Nike create the need for sweatshops. further, everyone has to buy into the system a little, or they'd die. but there's a BIG fucking difference between someone who occasionally buys something corporate, and someone who claims to stand for something and has a lot of influence letting a fucked up corporation like nike use their art, and then defending them!
solidaridadobre 3 years ago
I agree with nike not changing one bit, but look how people discuss this and listen for the first time to saul williams songs. His songs don't preach consent with things like nike! That does sound like Nike doing a Saul Williams commercial. The education spreads. As a worker who witnesses change in the city, he's right w/ getting the chance to discuss it. That's headway. I'd expand but not enough room here. Change happens VERY slowly. W/ Cooperation you gotta find a way to scratch their back
cclmnop 3 years ago 2
I agree with cclmnop here... sadly progress is slow and being stubborn won't help, you have to compromise and not expect change over night so lets ride this "be green and happy" trend for all its worth
Ellsswhere 3 years ago
To everyone criticizing Saul you should research more into the issues an listen to what hes saying. Everyone can agree with supply and demand and it is the demand of the consumers which controls the corporations. Until people start demanding more of the corporations nothing will happen and people have been fighting and protesting hard for the past whatever amount of time to stop nike due to their unethical bussiness methods. Adidas has been killing nike in sales simply because nike was the one
Bluntkingman 3 years ago
schulteis moleskine.
TomSchulteis 3 years ago
it's funny how this one decision made by this one man, a man of peace, is causing so much war and harsh words here.
mellowlemonmoon 3 years ago
it's funny how this one man, a man of peace, has said a lot of militant and harsh words with regards to the corporations he now supports and advertises.
thehalfandhalf 3 years ago
yeah, i mean i don't really buy his excuses for supporting nike. truthfully i'm angry at him. but that doesn't mean that now i believe he is an evil person. obviously he's no ghandi. and even if he is, he's stiil human, and human beings make bad choices. obviously this is one if his.
i'm just trying not to spread more hate.
mellowlemonmoon 3 years ago
I sat and I ohmed about it. But something I didn't "ask for" kept slipping in on lesser frequencies.
((((((((((((swoosh))))))))))))))))
thehalfandhalf 3 years ago
lol that is a little harsh.
vmvash 3 years ago
That is such bullshit justification. And artist of his calibre. DISSAPOINTING..YOU SOUND LIKE A FUCING NIKE SPOKEPERSON!!!
trenchrun 3 years ago
Fatal616, why does it matter that the company is only "making their veggie burgers" for money? The important thing is that "the veggie burgers" are being made.
The important thing is that the change is happening, so why does it matter what the corporations motivation is to change?
Furthermore, you don't believe one man can change something? One person CAN make change happen. Perhaps not easily, but it is possible for one person to make a change.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
oh and the reason mcdonalds offers a veggie burger is not for the better of you or i SAUL, its because they are trying to reach all markets to get MONEY. They all sit at their meeting tables and go "what type of people do not buy from us that we could appeal to?" oh thats right, vegetarians hate us! lets make a veggie burger so they start buying from us! lets add fun toys to the happy meals so kids will cry to their mothers to go buy one. lets add play centers so they keep coming back. etc etc
Fatal616 3 years ago
hes so full of shit. HE SOLD OUT, not to mention he backs obama who wants to bomb pakistan. come on, who sings "sunday bloody sunday" and then supports the war. what a fake. its sad trent reznor helped make him big just to see him turn into this.
Fatal616 3 years ago
He supports Obama? Shit's worse than I thought.
Beatnuk 3 years ago
I dont have a problem with artists licesning their music for commercials. Honestly if nike really arent doing anything sinister at the moment you dont really gain anything from turning them down except indie cred.
But honestly I would have respected him more if he's responded to claims he sold out with:
"Sure I did, and now Im the sellout with a fat paycheck, fuck you"
Jeedan 3 years ago
oh, and libertyisdead, u2 did an entire tour promoting k-mart. tell me now that "sunday bloody sunday" wasn't written by corporate, capitalistic, sellouts. btw, popmart was an awesome show.
leyachim 3 years ago
wow. some of you guys really don't see it do you? it's so obvious. this is a war. he knows this is a war. and he's infiltrating their market to send the message of defiance, change through love, and evolving the way we think. why do you think he picked "list of demands"? he's always been smart and passionate about what he does. now, he's doing it better.
leyachim 3 years ago 2
If you have anything more than a 1 room house/apartment with ONLY a bed, fridge, one light, and a toilet, and just enough clothes to get by the week, then you are a consumer. Seeing as how 99% of us have more than that, We are all consumers. I am, you are, and everyone
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
you know is. If you have more than what you need, you are a consumer. So until you get rid of EVERYTHING except for what you need, then you are also a consumer.. Everyone talks against consumerism (including myself, and all of you) but almost no one will give up their shit. (including myself, and all of you)
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
how much money did you get Saul? I think Saul's starting to emit a lesser frequency. Saul your were going to have a whole army by the time you were true? well you lost a soldier! Stick to your ideals, but now Saul has become what he most hates. Saul's rhetoric is laughable. Capitalist fuck! I wish i never suggested to Saul to cover 'Sunday Bloody Sunday' at Electric picnic 2006. To sum it up Saul Williams is an opportunist who hangs with Nas spouting Roc a Fella masonic Hand signs. Hypocrite!
LibertyIsDead 3 years ago
To all you people who said Saul sold out and to all you people who said he didnt he either sold out or he didnt! There eat oatmeal and prosper!
Sagefrakrobatik 3 years ago
nike...notorious for sweat shops...you can address the issue in the most roundabout way possible and twist the situation, but I dont think there is any way he could justify this. he is a hypocrite.
cmankman123 3 years ago
When an idie artist goes mainstream in any sort of way his/her/their original audience always screams "sellout".
Saul is able to garner more exposure and reach a larger audience through the Nike spot. He hasn't sold out to corporate greed, but is seeking to spread the message beyond the already clued-in few.
To blast Nike means you, yourself should stop being a consumer. What about half of the stuff in your house that is originally from somewhere they pay workers cents or few $ per hour?
peziak 3 years ago
Saul didn't sell out, and even if YOU think he did:
Let's ASSUME for a minute that saul did the commercial for nefarious reasons. Now, assuming that were the case we could consider that as one act of wrong. Now you would have to consider all of the right he has done. Would one act of wrong cancel out everything that he has accomplished or helped bring about? Of course not.
And that's all assuming that he did do the commercial just for money, which is something I highly doubt.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
Hey, thanks for posting this. I'm still not sure how I feel about it, but it's good to hear him talk about it.
shaggylocks 3 years ago 2
i love how we're bitching about how "he's sold out" and all that shit.
i think its funny because all you idiots are forgetting that he RELEASED A MOTHERFUCKING ALBUM FOR FREE.
think about that and tell me Mr. Williams has sold out.
eyeless45 3 years ago
yeah because trent told him to do it and they hoped it would sell better that way then in stores WHICH IT DID because it made a lot more people go to shows which brings in the real money.
Fatal616 3 years ago
wow, an artists that's making big bucks, releases 1 OF his albums for free, kinda like the big corporation giving away a free soda with that big mac.
loz4545 3 years ago
Saul is probably living more comfortably than most of us, but he's hardly what could be considered "rich." Don't get it twisted.
wisconscious 3 years ago
wow he's so full of shit right here. i can't stand it. To all you people saying he needs the money, that's just wrong. Saul makes plenty of dough from his book deals and various appearances around the world. He did not need to sell out to Nike. My jaw dropped when i saw the ad. It's very disappointing.
discodani420 3 years ago
What's wrong with Nike if they're showing improvement?
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
god money's not looking for the cure
god money's not concerned about the sick among the pure
god money let's go dancing on the backs of the bruised
god money's not one to choose
saul should take a cue from brother trent.
theres nothing wrong w/taking money but you have to know where you're taking it from and where in turn the money you make them goes. "follow the money," uttered the man...
vivoenomar 3 years ago
taking the money from the idiots that pay 250 dollars for ugly shoes
fractaldog 3 years ago
Nike employ people on a wage that pays little enough for their workers not to be able to afford Nike - and that's in developed countries.
loz4545 3 years ago
The situationists talked a bit about this, and what Saul williams is up to when they talk about subversion and recuperation. The idea that an organisation built on the unfair exchange of labour (nike workers cannot afford the products they make), is "showing improvement" is laughable. New Subversive ideas are created at grass routes level all the time, corporations try to nick these ideas and make them coporate, like with greenwashing, or Saul Williams. That is recuperation.
loz4545 2 years ago
Relying on the top to address the issues raised against them only leaves too much room for deception. Do It Yourself, Do As Much As We Can Ourselves, Say Yes To What's In Our Own Hearts! Anarchy! Anything else is abuse! You can get on with buying it, I'm still working on saying no to bullshit. Make it, don't buy it -as much as possible! Real changes occur in appeals within our homes and neighborhoods, not removed representatives!
But please don't stop, Saul.
rotmybrain 3 years ago
saul isn't a sellout at all
empte77 3 years ago 2
getting paid is one thing, but where is that money coming from. who the hell buys a veggie burger from mcdonalds (i know its an example) anyway.... ok, anyhow, here's the bottom line there are certain giant entities that people should stay away from, esp. if your MO is talking against greed, oppression, and globalization. sure, do commercials get paid, but tell us the truth, we're not stupid. I don't buy it.
vivoenomar 3 years ago
Just own up and say you did for the paper, and not cos Nike is being more "responsible" and shifting the way they operate and that you support that. You're telling me you're going to hold Nike accountable to their practices? Just tell us the truth, Mike Doughty did when Soul Coughing did a Gap ad.
vivoenomar 3 years ago
I just think it was a very questionable thing to do esp. now during the times of the Olympics, a long time partner of Nike, which are being held in China. China, a country who have for years been human rights violators, to not only Tibetans and Burmese, but in many instances, worse, to their own people. And we know the heavy investments China has made in Sudan, a country where slavery more or less still exists:
vivoenomar 3 years ago
Don't think that these instances are exclusive from each other, they all play a part in current state of things. Look, we're not gonna take down corporations, governments, practices, etc. But, we can openly say to certain entities I don't agree with your all your practices and I don't agree with the people, corporations, and institutions you do business with. And by taking a check by them, you are doing exactly the opposite.
vivoenomar 3 years ago
first of all, i dont understand y u ppl who are sayin hes a sellout are opposed to making money.
If he can get his message out and at the same time make a lil dough, then theres nothin wrong with that.
Just because hes commenting on social problems doesnt mean he hasta b condemned to being poor while he does it.
Second of all, he isnt sellin out cuz his message is still there, only now its reachin more ppl
mulesbaseball 3 years ago
i meant of course major corporations and large scale companies that have generally spent more time trying to make a product cheaply and mass produce it then making a quality product. i.e. Nike (Sweatshops anyone?) or McDonalds.
Not to mention the hell they raise on our small economy's and the class separation and racism they promote... you know... the types of things touched on in 'List of Demands'... a song about reparations for hells sake.
i will be missing the next Saul Williams concert.
jjj3st3r 3 years ago
For the record, this isn't something new. Saul has been a sellout for along time. His last 3 books were published by MTV (to which he also spewed his now characteristic mantra of I'm USING them to get MY message out, as if MTV's or Nike are really that desperate that they NEED Saul Williams)
Companies offering more responsible choices doesn't improve things, it just waters em down. you get cheap overprocessed veggie burgers, or organic labels that don't mean shit.
jjj3st3r 3 years ago
Your "arguments" have been dismissed with all of the consideration that they deserve. Your admitted ignorance of the concept of "rationalization" prevents you from understanding the response.
spek6 3 years ago
Oh? Oh, What's that?
You still havn't provided any logical response to my previous arguments?
Oh? Oh what's that? You still havn't even thought of a reason why you couldn't?
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
Are you stupid? I didn't try to twist anything, the word "rationalize" comes from the word "rational."
Also, what my "bizarre argument" was, was that more often than not, "rationalize" is used in the way that support my argument, so it was silly to try to put a negative connotation on it.
YOU HAVE STILL YET TO ANSWER WHY IT IS THAT YOU WERE UNABLE TO PROVIDE ANY SORT OF LOGICAL RESPONSE TO ALMOST ALL OF MY POINTS IN THE PREVIOUS CONVERSATION, and since you did not, it IS obvious that I won.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
You should make yourself a little crown out of construction paper and decorate it with crayon . . .
spek6 3 years ago
Oh, and don't forget to add a Nike Swoosh . . .
spek6 3 years ago
I also find it rather convenient that once I proved that you cherrypicked your definitions, you attempt to drop that point altogether.
In our First argument, you did not even attempt to counter my points, and now in this second conversation you attempt to topic change back to the first one when you realize that you've again Lost.
Now I believe that we've both sufficiently used enough commenting space to show what our opinions are. If you wish to further get schooled, send it in a message.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
There's no argument about the definition of a word. I used the primary definition, and the meaning is clear from the context. You then went and grabbed the meaning of a different word and posted it, in an attempt to twist what I said and make some kind of bizarre argument so that you could once again declare yourself the "winner." You're certainly not the brightest bulb around. Probably explains why you're so easily led around by your infatuation with this celebrity.
spek6 3 years ago
How do you not understand that this is a different conversation/argument?
One was about whether or not your claim that saul williams is a "sell-out" was true or false.
This new one is about the definition of a word.
Those are two distinctly seperate topics and two distinctly seperate conversations.
As to you saying that it's "laughable" when I say that I demolished your arguments, I have one question: Why then were you not able to come up with ANY way whatsoever to even attempt countering me
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
I never said I had better things to do. Go back and read my comment, I said that the conversation was over and that I had undeniably torn apart your entire "argument," and that You never had even attempted to look at my points logically, and did not counter them.
Also, where the fuck do you think the word rationalize comes from? It comes from the word "Rational," AND YOU CHERRYPICKED which definitions to show for "Rantionalize," omitting evidence from your own case to make it seem stronger.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
So if the conversation is over, why are you still talking to me?
And I didn't cherrypick anything. I had to explain to you what a "rationalization" is, because, as was the case with "selling out," there are certain words and phrases that you simply don't comprehend.
spek6 3 years ago
Because this is a seperate conversation. The previous conversation was about you claiming Saul to be a sell out, and not being able to logically back your claim up and having your entire argument utterly demolished.
This is a seperate conversation about definitions.
Really you didn't cherry pick the difnition?
go to dictionary . c o m and look it up. Definitions 1 and 7 support your train of thought. Definitions 2,3,4, and 8 support mine. 5 and 6 are neutral to this specific topic.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
No, this is the same conversation. Williams is a sell-out. The only people denying it are Saul and his apologists. It's quite common for artists who sell out to make weak rationalizations for doing so. Your parroting of those rationalizations and then declaring it a "demolishing" of his critics is laughable.
By the way, glad I could help you find the right definition. Let me know if you need additional assistance in the future.
spek6 3 years ago
By the way, if you're going to correct someone, at least get your facts straight. Of course, to properly use a reference material like a dictionary, you have to at the very least know which word to look up . . .
spek6 3 years ago
Spek6, Don't you have something better to do?
Also, you say "Rationalization" like being rational is suddenly a bad thing. In case you didn't know:
Rational:
1. agreeable to reason; reasonable; sensible
2. having or exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense
3. being in or characterized by full possession of one's reason; sane; lucid
etc. etc.
It's irrational to put a negative connotation on "rational" or any conjugation thereof.
But, You won't listen to reason.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
That's funny. You're the one who said you had better things to do, but now you're back (surprise, surprise) and telling me to leave.
rationalize: to invent plausible explanations for acts, opinions, etc., that are actually based on other causes
spek6 3 years ago
"beautifully spoken."
Yeah, it's called "Beautiful Rationalization." Maybe he'll put a little beat behind it and sell it to Wal-Mart or McDonald's . . .
spek6 3 years ago
"Selling out means you are selling out your morals/beliefs for money, which Saul didnt do"
Really? So then I guess it's just coincidental that, after taking the corporate blood money, Saul's message is now, "Everyone should go to Nikedotcom and see what a great company this is."
spek6 3 years ago
"cynisism is more devestating than ignorence"??
and now the people who speak about it using sauls voice and saul's energy are being hated on, like saul's word is GOD.
Jiggytarmac 3 years ago
Good point. Yes, Saul has declared ignorance preferable to critical thinking, and his personality cult is clearly heeding the message.
spek6 3 years ago
I love how you guys think accepting money means selling out. That is not what selling out means. Selling out means you are selling out your morals/beliefs for money, which Saul didnt do
saadghauri 3 years ago
It's always upsetting when people that we thought were one thing turn out to be something else. I understand your frustration.
spek6 3 years ago
I'm heartbroken.....kinda,.....it's almost like watching your parents smoke weed in your face or something.
Jimmyjewels 3 years ago
Seeing as how you continually neglect addressing my arguments or points, It is fairly clear that this argument is over. Your arguments seem to consist of nothing but attempted insults, and any time you have brought up something logical, it has been refuted and you do not address these refutations. It is fairly clear that you have not been able to logically support your stance on this issue. Kay, thanks, bye.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
The problem with Saul is that he wants it both ways. He wants the perks, financial and otherwise, that come with being a Nike spokesman, and he also wants to be taken seriously as an artist and a social critic. Sorry, Saul, it don't work that way. At least not with those who refuse to be apologists for your every move.
spek6 3 years ago
He wants what now? Oh, So now you read minds? You know what Saul Williams wants? This is physically impossible, no one knows of anyone's thoughts but their own.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
John Mellencamp is a great guy too. But he sold out when he decided to turn his music into Chevy commercials.
spek6 3 years ago
That's funny, because I had thought that this conversation was about Saul Williams. Don't evade the topic at hand.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
Yes, Saul Williams is "using" the corporation to enrich himself. That is what sellouts, by definition, do.
spek6 3 years ago
No, I said that Saul is using the company to expose his work to those who need to be exposed to it. You cannot deny that Saul's poetry has changed the lives of many for the better, and as such, exposing to a broader audience allows for more people to embrace and possibly be changed for the better by his work. His books can be found and read in libraries for free, and he has also released ALOT of free songs/poems, so you cannot say that attempting to broaden his audience is a ploy to make money.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago 2
I see. Nike didn't cut Saul a check so that they could co-opt his song and use it to sell shoes. They cut him a check so that he could teach them how to behave like human beings. Right.
You know, it's one thing to sell out. What's really despicable is when sell-outs like Saul Williams and his apologists try to rationalize it away as some great act of humanity. Pretty pathetic.
spek6 3 years ago 3
Oh, So you're not going to attempt to logically counter my points? You're just going to call me pathetic? Ok, well that makes this all easier.
In argumentation, Silence is Concension. That is to say, if someone brings up a point against your argument and you do not address that point, then you concede it. You have not addressed how any of my arguments or points are logically flawed. Therefore, you concede to all of my points.. unless you change your mind and actually address them.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
You have, however, repeated your own point of "Saul selling out to Nike." You also brought up a new point in your second paragraph.
To re-address your first point (which I have already refuted, and since you did not even attempt to counter my refutations, they stand.) You say that "Saul selled out to Nike," As I have already stated it is in fact Saul who is using Nike. He's using Nike to get his work known to those who need to know it.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
Cont.
He's also helping them take the first steps to becoming a better and more responsible company by helping to expose the movement of companies becoming resposible. If he had immediately said "No" to Nike then the door would not be open to talk and try to help them become better.
Your new point is basically saying that anyone who disagrees with you on whether or not someone is a sell-out is despicable. This point works against you, showing that you are intolerant of differing opinion.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
Oh yeah a greedy company like Nike is going to listen to one guy. Get real. Nike listens to dollars. Thats all.
Fatal616 3 years ago 2
In your second point(and paragraph) you have shown that yo are intolerant of differing opinion, which also shows that you will let your intolerances blind you from the fact that someone who disagrees with you may actually have a good argument, and as such, instead of actually responding to their argument and points, you simply dismiss it, assuming that it is of no merit.. You have demonstrated that by not addressing my arguments or points.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
beautifully spoken.
Saul is not a sell out for this. I like how some people like to be "revolutionists" simply to be different and hip. I thought this was about change. Change is occurring--hop on, do something about it or let it happen. Just don't be ignorant about the mission.
jimgill37 3 years ago
fans divided?
Jiggytarmac 3 years ago
seriously.
Fatal616 3 years ago
Bull fucking shit. Nike doesn't give two shits about "Sauls line of thinking" He makes music that can help them make money, and that is what they care about. They didn't have some revelation and decide that their ways are wrong
jesus christ it amazes me how much people buy into this bullshit.
solidaridadobre 3 years ago
So, taking Nike's blood money isn't selling out because corporations like Nike, McDonalds, Wal-Mart, etc. aren't all that bad, and, besides, it's just cynical to criticize these benevolent companies for the awful things they do, since their heart is in the right place. And everyone should go to Nikedotcom because if you really want to know what a corporation is up to, the best place to get that info is from the official website of the company itself. The stink of sellout is thick on Saul . . .
spek6 3 years ago
Nike is not using Saul.. Saul is using Nike. Don't you realize that?
Now, more people(and they also happen to be the same people that NEED to hear Saul) have heard Saul. Saul has changed many people's lives, and the more that hear and listen to him, the bigger the chance is that even more people will change for the better.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
Comment removed
loz4545 2 years ago
"Saul has changed many people's lives, and the more that hear and listen to him, the bigger the chance is that even more people will change for the better. "
Erm, he is a very good poet, with some clever, esorteric and medatative lyrics. I enjoy listening to him, He has not changed my life, and he is not the Messiah.
The majority of people that make Nike trainers can't understand Saul Williams as they speak a different language.
loz4545 2 years ago
"Saul has changed many peoples lives"
Not as many people's lives as Nike have affected - for the worse.
loz4545 2 years ago
nike is a worldwide corporation, saul is one man. do the fucking math.
nickdastardly 2 years ago
For instance:
Say you knew a person who was really fucking up their life, and in doing so, fucking the lives of other people as well. Now say that this person comes to you, and asks you to help them take the first steps towards changing their ways.
Many would argue that the person doesn't deserve your help, and if it only affected that single person you could make the choice to not help him. But helping him would also improve the lives of the OTHER PEOPLE he was hurting, so you have to help.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
So, What I'm getting at with that nice little story is this:
Nike has made some bad choices that have negatively impacted the lives of alot of it's workers.
Nike has bought into Saul's brand of thinking, and asked him to help them take steps in the right direction and help them regain some credibility. Now, Nike may not deserve Saul's help... but Saul must do all he can to try to help them become better because if he doesn't, then they will remain the same and make the same mistakes.
unifiedpeace 3 years ago
This is ridiculous! It's exaclty the same as oil companies "investing in our greener future" regaining credibility can be done through lies, it's what politicians and corperations do the world over, it's what Nike are doing now. I like the idea of Nike keeping Saul around after his contract runs out, as an ethical adviser, I like it because they are going to drop him like a hot potato. I also like they way you have compared a giant corporation to a person in need. you're living in Cuckoo land.
loz4545 2 years ago