So I take that as a "Yes, you may be saved without being mormon as long as you believe Christ died for your sins"? I'm sorry it's just that your answer was kind of vague and didn't quite answer my question. Now, I understand there are debates as to what a "saved christian" may look or behave like but I'm simply asking, is it POSSIBLE to be saved without being mormon? Guess I'm looking for a yes or no answer. appreciate the time!
We believe in more than one degree of "saved" every person if he believes or doesn't believe in christ of even how he lives his life will be saved in some way, the better you live the higher the kingdom you receive.
There has been zero evidence linking Native Americans with the Middle East or anywhere near there. There has also been zero evidence to support horses, elephants, or most of the other animals listed in the Book of Mormon where in America when the book said they were. The claims in the book are extremely outrageous and have no real proof of any of it. But hey, whatever makes you happy I guess.
Why are people always wanting proof? The Book of Mormon has survived every criticism for hundreds of years and has only attracted more believers every day.
So True ! Especially in the DNA, KJV Bible, Testimony of the 3 witness's having visions of the plates instead of actually seeing them. Joseph Smith secrecy of the plates. Grant Palmer is one of the best scholars IN the LDS church and he declares that it has a 19th century view. The Smithsonian Institute is saying they have NO evidence ! The Bible Vs The Book of Mormon is a must see and hear video !
You need to read that whole article. The people didn't talk about baptism for the dead because it was never initiated during their time. If it was, it would have been in the last 3 books of the Book of Mormon.
The purpose of the Book is to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its simple form. Not all of its truths, just the Gospel Principles. There is a difference between all of the Gospel Principles and all of its ordinances and truths. It was written to convince man that Jesus is the Christ.
I did some research and I'll message you the results.
In short though, the Book of Mormon never claims to have all truth, but rather the fullness of the Gospel of Christ. Or how to receive salvation through Christ. One of the major authors of the book, Mormon, even taught that only the lesser things of the gospel are being recorded.
Oh, and Alma may have said this because it was true in his time. There was no salvation before Christ. Christ wasn't born yet.
the fact that FAIR (FARMS, the Maxwell Institute, etc.) exists and produces articles like that should tell us something: the BoM apparently can't be understood "in a simpler manner" than the bible
both require the interpretation of professional scholars
i still stand my point that a reader taking the BoM at face value would come away with a very different idea of Mormon doctrine than the one Mormons subscribe to
You are wrong in your assumptions. FAIR is there ultimately to provide logical and well-thought support to the doctrines and beliefs of the Church. It is not to replace God and revelation on spiritual matters. Ultimately, it will only be that direct revelation from God that lets a person know it is true.
I was a convert, and read the BOM. The doctrines of Mormonism are loud and clear to me.
my point is that the BoM, contrary to what most Mormons believe, is not as "plain" or "simple" as WhyImMormon says it is
there are at least 4 organizations* that i can think of off the top of my head that exist solely to interpret Mormon doctrine - and they focus on the BoM
any document that requires that kind of "support" can hardly be called "simple"
The principles are what are basic and simple, but the great thing about the BOM is that each person can find something different in it through deep study, which is what those other sites do. Again, it is not meant to be the sole interpreters of Book of Mormon insights. However, 'mormon doctrine' does not change. It is what it is.
That is why I am grateful for the Spirit, that tells us what is truth above anything else.
FAIR, FARMS, SHIELDS, Maxwell Institute do not interpret the Book of Mormon. Only prophets do. They are merely gathering the quotes of prophets into one place to help us learn more. If this is so wrong, why go to Sunday School? Why have missionaries? We don't interpret God's word.
You obviously haven't read the Book of Mormon. For being an Old Testament era book, it is very simple to understand. So until you've read it, don't give book reviews on it.
Like StorminMormin91 said, FAIR is there for extended thoughts on a subject matter. It doesn't replace the Book. The Book or Mormon was written to convince Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ. It has the fullness of the gospel of Christ. It does not have all of the ordinances that are practiced in it. That is not it's purpose. Please read the Title Page and the WHOLE FAIR article to understand better.
You take Alma out of context and apply it to something that has nothing to do with what that scriptural passage was reffering to, which was the Second Coming.
Baptism for the dead is surely included in the Gospel, as it is Baptism, one of the first principles of the Gospel.
For the most part, ya. I think that overall it can be understood in a simpler manner, but I think that it mostly refers to having the fullness of the gospel of Christ and nothing missing like there might be in the Bible.
dude seriosly you guys believe that black people were nutreules and that we were monkeys so i dont no when you retards r going realize that your fat ass pope is wrong and probably is just doing it for the money then shut the hell up becuase you guys r a fucking cult.
First off, "nutreules" isn't even a real word. What does it mean? It makes it hard to respond if you make up your own language. Second, the majority of Mormons don't even believe in evolution. Third, we don't have a pope, we have a prophet. Fourth, he doesn't get paid. And fifth, by definition we aren't a cult. Man, you were way off!
I see that you're wearing a wedding ring...which means that you probably got married in the temple. How did you feel when you had to pretend to slit your throat and disembowel yourself during the ceremony as a consequence if you revealed the ceremony secrets? Or did they change that part?
Wow. Someone must have been reading some anti mormon literature! I don't recall any of that in the temple. And even if I wanted to tell you what goes on, I wouldn't tell ya. Can't you respect that I treat this sacred? I'm not asking you to tape you and someone else in your bedroom. That's sacred to you.
Yes. This part of the ceremony was pre-1990s, so you obviously didn't have to see it-thank God. If your parents are Mormons, maybe you should ask them about it someday.
Simply the fact that they changed the original temple ceremony--the one joseph smith came up with--means that today's prophets do not regard his teachings as a command from god, but from man (gods word does not change, remember?).
We believe in continuous revelation. Ever noticed that we don't slay the first born sheep anymore? It was revealed that we don't need to do that. It's not that God's Word doesn't change, it's that He gives laws according to what we need as a people right now.
I met the missionaries going door to door, argued with them for an hour using the bible, and they changed my life. I feel the holy spirity, almost all the time now. and I know that the BoM, D&C, and PoGP is another testiment of the Christ. But I wonder where the arguements about mormons "believing in blood atonement, men living on the moon, polygamy," etc etc originate from, and if there is any record of these things related to the Mormon Apostles, or Founding Fathers of the LDS church.
does the book of mormon you have in your possession contain no textual variance as the first translation of the tablets of nephi translated by joseph smith?
I know what you believe, I was once a mormon. Stretch? I'm sorry baptism is not needed. You are saved by grace,a free gift, your works won't save you. TELL me what Acts 10:43 says then. There was NO baptism there for remission of sins. Are you sure your view isn't a stretch for belief?
You are saved by grace not works. Eph 2:8-9 Rom 4:1-8... All you have to do is have faith and believe Rom 10:9-10 Acts 2:21 John 3:16 Rom 5:1 It's Jesus's blood that cleanses us Rom 3:25.not a baptism of water.
Look, I'm not here to prove to you that baptism is essential. That is not this purpose. I am here to testify of Christ and the principles of His gospel.
I know that baptism is essential. Christ Himself was baptized, and He taught of it often. I know this. A living prophet has taught this as well. I know that he is Christ's prophet.
That being said, I am happy to answer heartfelt questions and to clarify my beliefs, but I will not prove to you that this is essential.
that was weird, I thought i commented on someone else's comment. You're saying my view of scripture is a stretch for a belief. What do you expect me to say? Of course i'll try to prove my point with the bible. I don't want to fight. because we are just goin in circles. I know where you are comin from though, so I'll stop with the baptism stuff there.
If joseph smith were a real prophet then why didn't his prophecies come to pass, in the old testment if a so called prophet didn't fulfill his prophecies he would be put to death. This is why joseph smith was actually a product of satan and he was made prophet of satan
just a little side comment... You say that " you shall know them by their fruits" and that validates why the Joseph smith is a true prophet? If you apply your same logic you can say anyone who does good is from or of God. That's clearly not the case. The JW prophets have "good fruits" but you don't think they are true? I don't understand...
What I mean, is what the scriptures state. You can know if something is true and of God if you look at the fruit that is presented. Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon. So if you want to know if he was a prophet, you must find out if the BOM is true.
To do so though, you can't just take my word for it (much like you can't take the JWs word for it either). You need to find out for yourself. Get a testimony for yourself.
I understand what you are saying. You said that you need to search it out for yourself, which i agree, but what if you find out that it's not true or that JW has all the truth? Is the truth subjective to the believers experiences? What you're saying is that JS and the church had good fruits so it is of God and true? But you have to find out for yourself by reading the BOM? But JW have good fruit so have you tried finding out if JW is true? If not, why?
I believe that what the Bible is saying about good fruit is that IF you are really a believer in Christ, you will produce good fruit. There are many false christs out there as Matthew depicts, many claiming to be christ. What about the many churches who have false christs but still produce good works? They are still false. I'm not sure if i'm missing your point, but you would agree that just because someone or anyone can say they are christian and have good fruits doesn't mean it's true?
What is your definition of good fruits? From what you have said, you make it seem like anyone can have good fruits. So what do you mean when you speak of good fruits? I can't imagine that Satan's fruits are good. Appealing, but not good.
Hey all i'm saying is that a lot of other religions have "good fruits", good works, good things they produce. Just because these religions have good works etc, doesn't mean they are of God. But It also does not mean that they are not of God, meaning they could be right too. I mean I think we agree here, but we're just confused what the other one is trying to say. But I think just to say a religion has good fruits makes them right is wrong to say bc so many other religions have good works, etc.
Agreed. I was just wondering what your thoughts were.
So, one can have good works, but not be from God. I agree. I think my point is though, how do those good works play out? Do they go beyond the fuzzy, good feelings stage? Is there substance? What can it do for me? Will it help me obtain salvation?
The point is to test it. What will it do for you? Does that make sense?
Ok cool. I believe that if you are a true believer in Christ, you are transformed into a new person, and you naturally produce good works. Good works are evidence of a true believer. If you are not producing works, then you probably don't really believe bc faith w/out works is dead. I don't believe I have to do certain works for my salvation though... ( You probably disagree). I agree with you that we should test them, that makes sense
I agree with all you say about faith without works is dead. We absolutely need to endure to the end. Repent of our daily wrongdoings, and become better.
But as you knew I would, I disagree that we need certain works for our salvation. Baptism by proper authority being one of them. (Acts 2:37-38) That is just one of many examples of certain things we need to do.
You are a quick replier! Thanks for taking the time to write back and forth. For Acts 2:38, it depends on how you interpret the word "for". Ex. You go to jail FOR (because of) stealing. Or you go to the store FOR ( in order to get) groceries. I read it because of. I'm baptized because of the remission of sins that already happened, not to obtain it. This makes sense, Acts 10:43 says those who believes receive remission of sins... not baptism. it's Jesus's blood that cleans us (Rev 1:5)
If the church is to survive it may have to reform and move away from the B.O.M. as literal history. like the Community of Christ. The LDS have dropped their claim that the lamanites are the principal ancestors of the Indians, they are now just among them according to the new introduction to The B.O.M.
They wisely dropped polygamy in 1890 and allowed blacks into the priesthood in 1978. Temple ceremonies were toned down in 1990. So the reforms come gradually. The introduction to my B.O.M. says the Lamanites are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.
Well, if you believe the fact that we believe in continuous revelation, then you can only accept the fact that it was God's will. Who are we to question His will? He told His prophet to do all of those things.
Now, if I get any more comments requiring me to defend my beliefs, they will be deleted. This forum is for learning more about the Book of Mormon, not bashing its truthfulness.
Is the Book of Mormon the history of the principal ancestors of the American Indian as the church used to claim? Or do you view it more as spiritually inspired, but not history, more a theological work.
It does explain a history, but that is not its purpose. It has many holes if it is to be a history book. Its primary purpose is to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Ah, let me clarify what I meant. It isn't a history book, because it isn't a comprehensive history. It misses large amounts of time. Hundreds of years. So, it may tell of some of their history, but not all of it.
It's a commandment from God. He gave us everything, so the least we could do is give 10% of it back to Him, and His Church. It bases itself off of Malachi 3:10
It's never talked about much, but I know it was through first, the power of the Holy Ghost. He couldn't translate unless he was worthy of its presence. And second, he used a Urim and Thummim. That's all I know.
All of the necessary doctrines and principles necessary for our eternal salvation. Baptism, gift of the holy ghost, endowment and eternal marriage are some of it.
The fullness is all that was taught by Christ to his prophets in Old Testament times, what He taught in NT times, and what He taught to His Apostles. Not all of it is in our current Bible. Truths were lost over these thousands of years. So Joseph Smith restored it with the authority from God to do so.
Isn't it interesting that the pearl of Great price is a mistranslation of a few pages out of the Book of Breathings?
Either that's the case, or every Egyptology educated outside of BYU is wrong.
You'd think that Joseph Smith would have been inspired to restore more of the texts that were rejected by the council of Nicea--the fact that he didn't proves that they are of no value, doesn't it?
I don't know what you're talking about. What Joseph received by revelation came from God. If God didn't want to reveal more, that's His decision, not Joseph's.
Concerning the "word of God so far as it is translated correctly" bit, did you know that over 11 years of changing the bible, Joseph Smith only came up with 3500 changes?
Were you aware that in 10 years of rewriting the Book of Mormon he came up with 3913? Was the 1830 version (the one that he wrote the eighth article of faith about) the word of God only so far as it was translated correctly?
The changes made to the Bible were doctrine changes. Words and phrases that were omitted through the years that changed the doctrine. If it is 3500, that's a lot of doctrinal changes.
The changes made to the Book of Mormon were grammar, punctuation, spelling and layout changes. Changes that needed to happen because of human error in printing and writing. That doesn't make it less true. It is the most correct book because of the doctrine inside. Not its punctuation.
Where did I come from? Why am I here? How does the Atonement really help me? What's the purpose of life? What will happen after this life? How is Jesus my Savior? Is there a god? How can I avoid immorality? How can I find work? What does Christ expect of me? When should I get baptized? How can Christ help me? Why does God allow suffering? Does God answer prayers?How can I balance my career and family? How can I avoid evils?
Many of these are in the Bible, but these add to its answers.
do you think other christians are saved (non-mormons)?
dlor99 2 years ago
You are only saved by following Christ, His example and receiving all of the saving ordinances.
WhyImMormon 2 years ago
So I take that as a "Yes, you may be saved without being mormon as long as you believe Christ died for your sins"? I'm sorry it's just that your answer was kind of vague and didn't quite answer my question. Now, I understand there are debates as to what a "saved christian" may look or behave like but I'm simply asking, is it POSSIBLE to be saved without being mormon? Guess I'm looking for a yes or no answer. appreciate the time!
dlor99 2 years ago
We believe in more than one degree of "saved" every person if he believes or doesn't believe in christ of even how he lives his life will be saved in some way, the better you live the higher the kingdom you receive.
xxeffe 2 years ago
i enjoyed your video good job
TamsiAngela 2 years ago
The history of America doesnt even match the geography described in the Book of mormon...
just why would you believe such nonsense.
hearmyviews 2 years ago
Are you an archeologist, geologist, historian or even visited Central America?
WhyImMormon 2 years ago
Why are there horses in the book of Mormon, if it takes place before the Spanish brought them to the continent?
sportsboy1713 2 years ago
Who's to say that they couldn't have ever been there before? Pangea, remember?
WhyImMormon 2 years ago
There has been zero evidence linking Native Americans with the Middle East or anywhere near there. There has also been zero evidence to support horses, elephants, or most of the other animals listed in the Book of Mormon where in America when the book said they were. The claims in the book are extremely outrageous and have no real proof of any of it. But hey, whatever makes you happy I guess.
dakotadenverdexter 2 years ago 2
Zero evidence? Google isn't a synonym for research. Don't go with the first 10 results and call it fact.
WhyImMormon 2 years ago
Didn't use Google. Didn't need to. Unless you can prove any of that true, I see no reason to believe in those crazy stories.
dakotadenverdexter 2 years ago
Why are people always wanting proof? The Book of Mormon has survived every criticism for hundreds of years and has only attracted more believers every day.
WhyImMormon 2 years ago
@dakotadenverdexter Pray!!!!!!!!!!!!
jenderlicious 1 year ago
@dakotadenverdexter
So True ! Especially in the DNA, KJV Bible, Testimony of the 3 witness's having visions of the plates instead of actually seeing them. Joseph Smith secrecy of the plates. Grant Palmer is one of the best scholars IN the LDS church and he declares that it has a 19th century view. The Smithsonian Institute is saying they have NO evidence ! The Bible Vs The Book of Mormon is a must see and hear video !
bomNotUnderTheGround 2 years ago
that FAIR article on baptism for the dead claims that it wouldn't have been important to the people of that time
um, i didn't think the people of that time read the BoM . . .
i thought, and i could be wrong, that the BoM was written for our time
e.g. - nephi went to the trouble to engrave a second version of the same story
why?
because in our time the first version would be stolen
if they were writting for us today why not preach the gospel that "we" practice today?
GrubbyGert 2 years ago
You need to read that whole article. The people didn't talk about baptism for the dead because it was never initiated during their time. If it was, it would have been in the last 3 books of the Book of Mormon.
The purpose of the Book is to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its simple form. Not all of its truths, just the Gospel Principles. There is a difference between all of the Gospel Principles and all of its ordinances and truths. It was written to convince man that Jesus is the Christ.
WhyImMormon 2 years ago
"nothing missing"
um, there are several significant parts of the gospel as you live it that simply aren't in there
for example . . . baptism for the dead
the implications of its absence are pretty big, actually
a plain and simple reading of the BoM might lead someone to wrongly believe that there is no accepting (or preaching) the gospel after death
"then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed . . ." (Alma 34:31-35)
GrubbyGert 2 years ago
I did some research and I'll message you the results.
In short though, the Book of Mormon never claims to have all truth, but rather the fullness of the Gospel of Christ. Or how to receive salvation through Christ. One of the major authors of the book, Mormon, even taught that only the lesser things of the gospel are being recorded.
Oh, and Alma may have said this because it was true in his time. There was no salvation before Christ. Christ wasn't born yet.
WhyImMormon 2 years ago
thank you - i read those articles
the fact that FAIR (FARMS, the Maxwell Institute, etc.) exists and produces articles like that should tell us something: the BoM apparently can't be understood "in a simpler manner" than the bible
both require the interpretation of professional scholars
i still stand my point that a reader taking the BoM at face value would come away with a very different idea of Mormon doctrine than the one Mormons subscribe to
why is that?
GrubbyGert 2 years ago
You are wrong in your assumptions. FAIR is there ultimately to provide logical and well-thought support to the doctrines and beliefs of the Church. It is not to replace God and revelation on spiritual matters. Ultimately, it will only be that direct revelation from God that lets a person know it is true.
I was a convert, and read the BOM. The doctrines of Mormonism are loud and clear to me.
StorminMormin91 2 years ago
"It is not to replace God and revelation"
yeah, i never said that
my point is that the BoM, contrary to what most Mormons believe, is not as "plain" or "simple" as WhyImMormon says it is
there are at least 4 organizations* that i can think of off the top of my head that exist solely to interpret Mormon doctrine - and they focus on the BoM
any document that requires that kind of "support" can hardly be called "simple"
*FAIR, FARMS, SHIELDS, Maxwell Institute
GrubbyGert 2 years ago
The principles are what are basic and simple, but the great thing about the BOM is that each person can find something different in it through deep study, which is what those other sites do. Again, it is not meant to be the sole interpreters of Book of Mormon insights. However, 'mormon doctrine' does not change. It is what it is.
That is why I am grateful for the Spirit, that tells us what is truth above anything else.
StorminMormin91 2 years ago
FAIR, FARMS, SHIELDS, Maxwell Institute do not interpret the Book of Mormon. Only prophets do. They are merely gathering the quotes of prophets into one place to help us learn more. If this is so wrong, why go to Sunday School? Why have missionaries? We don't interpret God's word.
You obviously haven't read the Book of Mormon. For being an Old Testament era book, it is very simple to understand. So until you've read it, don't give book reviews on it.
WhyImMormon 2 years ago
Like StorminMormin91 said, FAIR is there for extended thoughts on a subject matter. It doesn't replace the Book. The Book or Mormon was written to convince Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ. It has the fullness of the gospel of Christ. It does not have all of the ordinances that are practiced in it. That is not it's purpose. Please read the Title Page and the WHOLE FAIR article to understand better.
WhyImMormon 2 years ago
You take Alma out of context and apply it to something that has nothing to do with what that scriptural passage was reffering to, which was the Second Coming.
Baptism for the dead is surely included in the Gospel, as it is Baptism, one of the first principles of the Gospel.
StorminMormin91 2 years ago
5:07
" . . . written plain, and purely, and simply . . ."
so . . . can passages from the Book of Mormon be taken at face value?
what i mean to say is that there are lots of different interpretations of things in the Bible
you seem to be saying that sort of thing (interpretation) is unnecassary with the Book of Mormon because it is written to be plain and simple
am i understanding correctly?
GrubbyGert 2 years ago
For the most part, ya. I think that overall it can be understood in a simpler manner, but I think that it mostly refers to having the fullness of the gospel of Christ and nothing missing like there might be in the Bible.
WhyImMormon 2 years ago
dude seriosly you guys believe that black people were nutreules and that we were monkeys so i dont no when you retards r going realize that your fat ass pope is wrong and probably is just doing it for the money then shut the hell up becuase you guys r a fucking cult.
RyanRmz 2 years ago
First off, "nutreules" isn't even a real word. What does it mean? It makes it hard to respond if you make up your own language. Second, the majority of Mormons don't even believe in evolution. Third, we don't have a pope, we have a prophet. Fourth, he doesn't get paid. And fifth, by definition we aren't a cult. Man, you were way off!
WhyImMormon 2 years ago
I see that you're wearing a wedding ring...which means that you probably got married in the temple. How did you feel when you had to pretend to slit your throat and disembowel yourself during the ceremony as a consequence if you revealed the ceremony secrets? Or did they change that part?
jordy2ube 3 years ago
Wow. Someone must have been reading some anti mormon literature! I don't recall any of that in the temple. And even if I wanted to tell you what goes on, I wouldn't tell ya. Can't you respect that I treat this sacred? I'm not asking you to tape you and someone else in your bedroom. That's sacred to you.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
Yes. This part of the ceremony was pre-1990s, so you obviously didn't have to see it-thank God. If your parents are Mormons, maybe you should ask them about it someday.
jordy2ube 3 years ago
Why? What benefit would it be to either you or me to know what used to be done?
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
Simply the fact that they changed the original temple ceremony--the one joseph smith came up with--means that today's prophets do not regard his teachings as a command from god, but from man (gods word does not change, remember?).
jordy2ube 2 years ago
We believe in continuous revelation. Ever noticed that we don't slay the first born sheep anymore? It was revealed that we don't need to do that. It's not that God's Word doesn't change, it's that He gives laws according to what we need as a people right now.
WhyImMormon 2 years ago
Oh, btw, I met them in November and have been studying ever since, I can't be baptized though, because my parents are catholic, and wont let me..
EversmanSAT 3 years ago
YouTube won't let me post links here, so I'll send you one.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
I met the missionaries going door to door, argued with them for an hour using the bible, and they changed my life. I feel the holy spirity, almost all the time now. and I know that the BoM, D&C, and PoGP is another testiment of the Christ. But I wonder where the arguements about mormons "believing in blood atonement, men living on the moon, polygamy," etc etc originate from, and if there is any record of these things related to the Mormon Apostles, or Founding Fathers of the LDS church.
EversmanSAT 3 years ago
is the modern translation of the book of mormon exactly the same as the first translation of the tablets of nephi?
bumbacutthoat 3 years ago
I'm not sure what you mean, but the translation that Joseph made into English from the gold plates was done exact.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
does the book of mormon you have in your possession contain no textual variance as the first translation of the tablets of nephi translated by joseph smith?
bumbacutthoat 3 years ago
The translation is the same. The punctuation, spelling and grammar have been updated because of printing mistakes and scribe errors were fixed.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
I know what you believe, I was once a mormon. Stretch? I'm sorry baptism is not needed. You are saved by grace,a free gift, your works won't save you. TELL me what Acts 10:43 says then. There was NO baptism there for remission of sins. Are you sure your view isn't a stretch for belief?
You are saved by grace not works. Eph 2:8-9 Rom 4:1-8... All you have to do is have faith and believe Rom 10:9-10 Acts 2:21 John 3:16 Rom 5:1 It's Jesus's blood that cleanses us Rom 3:25.not a baptism of water.
zmcleod 3 years ago
Look, I'm not here to prove to you that baptism is essential. That is not this purpose. I am here to testify of Christ and the principles of His gospel.
I know that baptism is essential. Christ Himself was baptized, and He taught of it often. I know this. A living prophet has taught this as well. I know that he is Christ's prophet.
That being said, I am happy to answer heartfelt questions and to clarify my beliefs, but I will not prove to you that this is essential.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
that was weird, I thought i commented on someone else's comment. You're saying my view of scripture is a stretch for a belief. What do you expect me to say? Of course i'll try to prove my point with the bible. I don't want to fight. because we are just goin in circles. I know where you are comin from though, so I'll stop with the baptism stuff there.
zmcleod 3 years ago
If joseph smith were a real prophet then why didn't his prophecies come to pass, in the old testment if a so called prophet didn't fulfill his prophecies he would be put to death. This is why joseph smith was actually a product of satan and he was made prophet of satan
chainsticks88 3 years ago
Many of his prophecies did come true. Those that haven't yet is because they haven't happened yet.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
just a little side comment... You say that " you shall know them by their fruits" and that validates why the Joseph smith is a true prophet? If you apply your same logic you can say anyone who does good is from or of God. That's clearly not the case. The JW prophets have "good fruits" but you don't think they are true? I don't understand...
zmcleod 3 years ago
What I mean, is what the scriptures state. You can know if something is true and of God if you look at the fruit that is presented. Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon. So if you want to know if he was a prophet, you must find out if the BOM is true.
To do so though, you can't just take my word for it (much like you can't take the JWs word for it either). You need to find out for yourself. Get a testimony for yourself.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
I understand what you are saying. You said that you need to search it out for yourself, which i agree, but what if you find out that it's not true or that JW has all the truth? Is the truth subjective to the believers experiences? What you're saying is that JS and the church had good fruits so it is of God and true? But you have to find out for yourself by reading the BOM? But JW have good fruit so have you tried finding out if JW is true? If not, why?
zmcleod 3 years ago
I believe that what the Bible is saying about good fruit is that IF you are really a believer in Christ, you will produce good fruit. There are many false christs out there as Matthew depicts, many claiming to be christ. What about the many churches who have false christs but still produce good works? They are still false. I'm not sure if i'm missing your point, but you would agree that just because someone or anyone can say they are christian and have good fruits doesn't mean it's true?
zmcleod 3 years ago
What is your definition of good fruits? From what you have said, you make it seem like anyone can have good fruits. So what do you mean when you speak of good fruits? I can't imagine that Satan's fruits are good. Appealing, but not good.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
Hey all i'm saying is that a lot of other religions have "good fruits", good works, good things they produce. Just because these religions have good works etc, doesn't mean they are of God. But It also does not mean that they are not of God, meaning they could be right too. I mean I think we agree here, but we're just confused what the other one is trying to say. But I think just to say a religion has good fruits makes them right is wrong to say bc so many other religions have good works, etc.
zmcleod 3 years ago
Agreed. I was just wondering what your thoughts were.
So, one can have good works, but not be from God. I agree. I think my point is though, how do those good works play out? Do they go beyond the fuzzy, good feelings stage? Is there substance? What can it do for me? Will it help me obtain salvation?
The point is to test it. What will it do for you? Does that make sense?
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
Ok cool. I believe that if you are a true believer in Christ, you are transformed into a new person, and you naturally produce good works. Good works are evidence of a true believer. If you are not producing works, then you probably don't really believe bc faith w/out works is dead. I don't believe I have to do certain works for my salvation though... ( You probably disagree). I agree with you that we should test them, that makes sense
zmcleod 3 years ago
I agree with all you say about faith without works is dead. We absolutely need to endure to the end. Repent of our daily wrongdoings, and become better.
But as you knew I would, I disagree that we need certain works for our salvation. Baptism by proper authority being one of them. (Acts 2:37-38) That is just one of many examples of certain things we need to do.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
You are a quick replier! Thanks for taking the time to write back and forth. For Acts 2:38, it depends on how you interpret the word "for". Ex. You go to jail FOR (because of) stealing. Or you go to the store FOR ( in order to get) groceries. I read it because of. I'm baptized because of the remission of sins that already happened, not to obtain it. This makes sense, Acts 10:43 says those who believes receive remission of sins... not baptism. it's Jesus's blood that cleans us (Rev 1:5)
zmcleod 3 years ago
Well, we believe you need to be baptized by authority for a remission of sins. Your view of that scripture is a stretch for belief.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
If the church is to survive it may have to reform and move away from the B.O.M. as literal history. like the Community of Christ. The LDS have dropped their claim that the lamanites are the principal ancestors of the Indians, they are now just among them according to the new introduction to The B.O.M.
hernhillrebel 3 years ago
The Church has survived over 178 years without any reform. If it's true, then it won't need any reform.
The Church never said that the Lamanites were the "principal ancestors" of the Native Americans. They are some of them, but not the principal ones.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
They wisely dropped polygamy in 1890 and allowed blacks into the priesthood in 1978. Temple ceremonies were toned down in 1990. So the reforms come gradually. The introduction to my B.O.M. says the Lamanites are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.
hernhillrebel 3 years ago
Well, if you believe the fact that we believe in continuous revelation, then you can only accept the fact that it was God's will. Who are we to question His will? He told His prophet to do all of those things.
Now, if I get any more comments requiring me to defend my beliefs, they will be deleted. This forum is for learning more about the Book of Mormon, not bashing its truthfulness.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
Is the Book of Mormon the history of the principal ancestors of the American Indian as the church used to claim? Or do you view it more as spiritually inspired, but not history, more a theological work.
bossendenwoodconvict 3 years ago
It does explain a history, but that is not its purpose. It has many holes if it is to be a history book. Its primary purpose is to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
WhyIMormon- Are you saying the Book of Mormon has "many holes in it" historically? You stated:"It has many holes if it is to be a history book."
harry4health 3 years ago
Ah, let me clarify what I meant. It isn't a history book, because it isn't a comprehensive history. It misses large amounts of time. Hundreds of years. So, it may tell of some of their history, but not all of it.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
It's a commandment from God. He gave us everything, so the least we could do is give 10% of it back to Him, and His Church. It bases itself off of Malachi 3:10
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
Why do you have to give up 10% of your salary to the Mormon?
danny458 3 years ago
How did Joseph Smith translate the book of Mormon?
Tavlo 3 years ago
It's never talked about much, but I know it was through first, the power of the Holy Ghost. He couldn't translate unless he was worthy of its presence. And second, he used a Urim and Thummim. That's all I know.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
Urim and Thummim?
Tavlo 3 years ago
Look it up on Wikipedia. They have a good article about what it was and how it was used in the Bible, and how it was used by Joseph Smith.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
Do you have any idea why the latest prophets don't use a seer stone? As far as I know, LDS still holds one seer stone owned by Joseph Smith...
edgarrsoares 3 years ago
I don't know if the prophet does or not. It's not something they openly talk about. They don't need to talk about it.
The one that Joseph used was taken back into heaven after the translation.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
No, the Urim and Thummim where taken back with the gold plates, not the seer stone.
edgarrsoares 3 years ago
The stones names were Urim and Thummim. They are taken back to heaven, like you said. Why did you say "no"?
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
After the Urim and Thummim were taken by Moroni, Joseph translated the Book of Abraham and part of the Book of Moses.
He used one seer stone for that (while he needed); he had different ones at different times.
Hiram Page and David Whitmer also had one, it seems...
edgarrsoares 3 years ago
I'm really not understanding what you are getting at. Why are you giving me a history lesson? I know all of these things. What is your point?
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
My fault, I've misread your comment. I had some curiosity about the present use of the seer stone, but you've answered fine.
Thanks. It's time to go to sleep now :-)
edgarrsoares 3 years ago
Could you explain what the 'Fullness of the gospel' is?
I am confused as to what you mean.
grnmessiah 3 years ago
All of the necessary doctrines and principles necessary for our eternal salvation. Baptism, gift of the holy ghost, endowment and eternal marriage are some of it.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
is the "fullness of the gospel" the gospel? Can you explain more what the gospel is? One short description and one a bit longer...
God bless
testskriftene 3 years ago
The fullness is all that was taught by Christ to his prophets in Old Testament times, what He taught in NT times, and what He taught to His Apostles. Not all of it is in our current Bible. Truths were lost over these thousands of years. So Joseph Smith restored it with the authority from God to do so.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
but what is it?
testskriftene 3 years ago
Isn't it interesting that the pearl of Great price is a mistranslation of a few pages out of the Book of Breathings?
Either that's the case, or every Egyptology educated outside of BYU is wrong.
You'd think that Joseph Smith would have been inspired to restore more of the texts that were rejected by the council of Nicea--the fact that he didn't proves that they are of no value, doesn't it?
grnmessiah 3 years ago
I don't know what you're talking about. What Joseph received by revelation came from God. If God didn't want to reveal more, that's His decision, not Joseph's.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
Concerning the "word of God so far as it is translated correctly" bit, did you know that over 11 years of changing the bible, Joseph Smith only came up with 3500 changes?
Were you aware that in 10 years of rewriting the Book of Mormon he came up with 3913? Was the 1830 version (the one that he wrote the eighth article of faith about) the word of God only so far as it was translated correctly?
grnmessiah 3 years ago
The changes made to the Bible were doctrine changes. Words and phrases that were omitted through the years that changed the doctrine. If it is 3500, that's a lot of doctrinal changes.
The changes made to the Book of Mormon were grammar, punctuation, spelling and layout changes. Changes that needed to happen because of human error in printing and writing. That doesn't make it less true. It is the most correct book because of the doctrine inside. Not its punctuation.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
Thanks! Great video!
theBUBBAMANcan 3 years ago
Where did I come from? Why am I here? How does the Atonement really help me? What's the purpose of life? What will happen after this life? How is Jesus my Savior? Is there a god? How can I avoid immorality? How can I find work? What does Christ expect of me? When should I get baptized? How can Christ help me? Why does God allow suffering? Does God answer prayers?How can I balance my career and family? How can I avoid evils?
Many of these are in the Bible, but these add to its answers.
WhyImMormon 3 years ago
Hy again,
could you state some of the things that BoM helped clarifying?
edgarrsoares 3 years ago