Tip your hat? Noor beat Citation 4 of 5 races, over 80% of the time! Beau Purple beat Kelso 75% of the time in 3 of 4 races! Damascus beat Dr Fager 2 of 4 races. Wajima beat Forego 2 of 3 times. Interco beat John Henry 2 of 3 times. Formal Gold beat Skip Away 4 of 6 times. Akureyri beat Pleasant Colony 3 of 4 times. Tip your hat to these too.
Like many of the racing experts from both coasts stated, and even stated by trainers Wayne Lukas and Woody Stephens, but stated the most correct by Paul Moran of espn, "Easy Goer was the better,more extraordinary,phenomenal horse, but was defeated by whisker and desperate neck in two races because Pat Day rode him like the exposed end of a live wire,rode him horribly." I agree
Have you figured out yet why Secretariat lost 5 times in his career, 2 of them by more than 4 lengths? Have you figured out why Citation lost 4 of 5 to Noor, and lost 13 races? Dr Fager lost 2 to Damascus and 4 times. Forego lost over 20 times. Kelso lost over 20 times. Affirmed and Buckpasser lost 7 and 6 races each.Bid lost 4 times,and the 2 big,big ones.
Once again, you don't know your racing history at all. Whittingham ordered McCarron not to hit the horse with the whip, so instead he had to cross rein, throw crosses, and show the horse the whip, as that was the trainers orders. Whittingham figured out after his losses in the Belmont and G-2 Swaps, that he hated being hit,win or lose, he would duck,shy and prop from the whip,so they didnt want to take any chances. Easy Goer won 14 races hand ridden,who cares, including widening in the Belmont.
Same thin I said, except different words from Steve Crist and Joe Hirsch. "Easy Goer would be mentioned in the same reverential breath as Secretariat(lost 5 races), Citation(lost 4 of 5 to Noor),Man OWar, Dr Fager(lost 2 of 4 to Damascus),Kelso(lost 3 of 4 to Beau Purple)&Forego(lost 2 of 3 to Big Spruce),and his campaign acclaimed the greatest in racing history,if not for 2 typically atrocious Pat Day rides that got him beat a nose and desperate neck in 2 races."
Pat Day's admittedly despicable riding is what got the vastly faster horse beat an inch and desperate neck in two races. The great equalizer= Pat Day's admittedly despicable riding getting him beat an inch and desperate neck in two races. Easy Goer was the vastly faster horse, he ran 7 or 8 120+ or higher beyers(double the amount of any horse since Bid,including Ghostzapper,Alysheba,Curlin,John Henry,Skip Away,Cigar,Holy Bull,etc) while SS ran ONE! one
One writer described Sunday as "nothing if not arrogant." She also said that Sunday in the post parade danced & pranced, & all but bared his teeth & said "mine"! He was as they say "loaded for bear"! Pat Day's bad ride notwithstanding, I don't think anything could have beat Sunday that day...he was not to be denied. All grit and a fighter, he had had to fight for everything he got, even down to the end in his battle with liminitis through several surgeries, finally losing bravely in 2002.
The thing about this race, & the rivalry, is the imagery of the "low bred" against the "blue blood", East Coast/West Coast...the whole magilla. I can understand Easy Goer's fans feeling cheated in a number of ways -- EG had won FIVE G1s up to the Classic, and he had easily beat SS in the Belmont. But Sunday's two TC wins & a couple others, along with his being one of the most competitive horses ever, set up for a "race of the century" show down. SS owned the post parade, the race, & rivalry.
Simple: What was the great equalizer? Pat Day's despicable riding. Easy Goer was the vastly faster horse. Easy Goer ran seven or eight 120+ or higher beyers in his career(that is double the amount of any horse since Bid, including Ghostzapper,Cigar,Alysheba,John Henry,Holy Bull,Skip Away,etc) while SS ran ONE!!ONE!! Pat Day's despicable riding getting him defeated by an inch and desperate neck in two races was the great equalizer.
Wrong.Though Pat Day rode despicably. P.Val was the one who carried Easy Goer and Day out 7 or 8 wide down the backstretch. Day overreacted and sent Easy Goer through a monster,very premature move,passed SS easily and was well clear of him and did not cut him off at all. Day then gets outmanuevered for the stretch,getting trapped down on the fence &P.Val bangs him in even tighter,then Day cocks his head with a lead in deep stretch. Day made 3 huge mistakes and still only got beat an inch.
PAT DAY WAS NOT ONLY A BAD RIDER IN BIG RACES BUT HE WAS ALSO A DIRTY SORE LOSER. JUST WATCH HOW HE PUTS EG, SS, PATV AND HIMSELF IN DANGER AT THE HALF MILE POLE OF THE PREAKNESS. EVEN WITH THE DIRTY TACTICS BY PDAY SS STILL CAME BACK AND WON THE RACE, SS WAS A SUPER HORSE INDEED.
Agree totally. I agree with what many of the racing experts from both coasts stated(Christine,Nack,Crist,Pope,etc) and even stated by trainers Wayne Lukas and Woody Stephens, but stated the best by Paul Moran of espn, "Easy Goer was the better,more brilliant,phenomenal,extraordinary horse, but was defeated by a whisker and desperate neck in 2 races b/c Pat Day rode him "like the exposed end of a live wire" stop & start,horrible riding. I agree, though both great horses indeed.
Also Edwin Pope's and Bill Nack's distinct quotes on this Classic: "After a slow start, Pat Day decided to do nothing and let him settle 12 lengths off the lead.Then Day cost Easy Goer a full head of steam on the backstretch.He put out the fire of a splendid champ in full flame(Day said he gave EG a breather when SS went around the far turn, just as Day said he did in the Preakness also).If Day&McCarron had switched mounts,Easy Goer never loses by a desperate neck."
But the big difference was that Easy Goer was always, in talent,ability,constitution,speed-stamina combo, a top ten all time thorobred, with the proof of this coming from his many,many top ten all time performances in his career at every distance,6.5F,7F,8F,9F,10F,12F, but the 2 typically atrocious Pat Day rides(he called his own riding total rider errors) that got him beat a nose and desperation neck in 2 races, sent him down into the thirties where ss always belonged.
"Clearly the better horse"? Hmmm. Then that means that Beau Purple was "clearly the better horse than Kelso" as he was 3 to 1 against Kelso. Same thing with Noor's record vs. Citation was 4 to 1. Same thing with Damascus being 2 to 2 vs. Dr Fager. Same thing with Formal beating Skip Away 4 of 6 races. Same thing with Wajima beating Forego 2 of 3 races.Same thing with Star of Cozzene beating Kotashaan 3 of 4 races.Same thing with Interco beating John Henry 2 of 3 races. Clearly.
I believe I just have to start my agreement with an experts opinion by stating that "perhaps Crist,Pope,Paulick,Moran,etc were correct in their opinion." After all, I am sure that plenty of other experts,etc could think of plenty of other horses, on their top or best or better days, that could have beaten SEC on that day, but "perhaps Haskin was right" though.
I am sure that plenty of other experts,etc could think of plenty of other horses, on their best or better days, that could have beat Secretariat on that day, but "PERHAPS Haskin was right" in his opinion statement. "Perhaps Crist was right" or "perhaps Moran and Edwin Pope were right" in their opinion.
So, taking advice and a line from you, I just state in my comments, "Perhaps Crist was right", or "perhaps Edwin Pope was right", or "perhaps Haskin was right" when he said so and so. Like you say it, "perhaps this so and so expert's opinion was correct." Perhaps.
And no doubt you and your friends will also continue insulting, ridiculing, me and anyone else who disagrees with you. You will also continue marking as spam any opinions you disagree with in violation of Youtube guidelines on when comments should be marked as spam,
"Perhaps Haskin was right" comment by you 3 years ago(oh yes, who has been on here also for years and years?). Perhaps Haskin was right? Well, I am sure plenty of people, experts, etc can think of plenty of horses, at their best, who could have beat Secretariat that particular day. "Perhaps Haskin was right" though. I should say, perhaps "Crist was right" or so and so was right.
That is a highly hypocritical comment there! You don't quote experts because you agree? "Perhaps Haskin was right comment" 3 years ago(By the way, who has also been on YT for 3 years?). Maybe I should state it like you do, and just say, "perhaps so and so is right."
How many times are you going to repeat that same comment? Pot calling the kettle black, hyporcrite.Not that I care, nor does it matter, but guys like Crist and Beyer do make "plenty of money", don't know if it is in the millions, but Crist and Beyer do make plenty of money, but who cares about that? I don't.
All of my quotes of these experts opinions, I state I am agreeing with some of the experts opinions. It is an agreement or a disagreement on opinion. I have never said anything about it as "fact". Pot calling the kettle black, hypocrite.
I don't quote Paulick, Beyer, and Christine because I agree with their opinions. I only do so to illustrate the fact that none of these so-called experts knows what they are talking about. Talk is cheap. If they really understood enough about all of the variables that determine the outcome of the race to know that Pat Day was the deciding factor, they would be making millions betting at the track rather than writing about it.
I will quote the opinions of some of these experts listed just as much as you repeat your quotes and opinions and comments. I will do it as much as I want, and you do it as much as you want, pot calling the kettle black, hypocrite.
Agreeing with the opinions of some of what experts such as, Crist,Hovdey,Hirsch,Pope,Moran,etc stated is nothing more than agreeing with the opinions of what some experts stated. And pot calling the kettle black, you have been repeating your same thing just as much as everybody else, pot calling the kettle black, and highly hyporcritical.
Actually your opinions don't ruffle my feathers. The thing the ruffle's my fathers is the you repeat these thousands of times over again. You attempt to bludgeon people with it including the fact that you and your friends insult and ridicule people, not just me, who disagree with you. When someone disagrees with you and or your friends mark those comments as spam. And you do all of this on behalf of something you describe simply as an OPINION?
I just happen to agree with some,not all, of what many of the experts opinions,Crist,Hovdey,Moran,Pope,etc,were and are on this. Once again, they are just opinions of experts, and agreeing with some of what Crist,Christine,Hirsch,Hovdey,Pope,Moran,etc. And I will quote them as much as I want, just like you can quote Paulick,Beyer and Christine's other or contrasting opinions, as much as you want.
The difference is I make no claims that I know why EG lost that cannot be substantiated. Also, I don't repeat these claims over and over again thousands of times as if they are gospel truth. Instead, my central point is no one can say with any degree of certainty that Pat Day caused EG to lose the BC and Preakness. You have no way of knowing whether claims by Beyer and Christine, that SS was simply the better horse are true or not. All we really know is SS won.
Once again, the "experts opinions" are just that, and some of those opinions I agree with, and if my agreement with some of these experts opinions gets you angry and ruffles your agnostic feathers, then so be it. Once again, they are some experts opinions who I agree with,and some I don't.
Let's see some of "my quotes.". Did Crist exactly say "Day rode him like the exposed end of a live wire"? No. Did Bill Christine? No. Did Jay Hovdey? No. Did Bill Nack? No. Did Joe Hirsch? Did Edwin Pope? Did Joe Drape's book? Did Wayne Lukas? Did Whittingham? Did Pat Day? Did Paulick? Did Beyer? Did Haskin state this quote? No, the only one who said that was Paul Moran, but what about the other quotes? They didn't.
Did Whittingham say AFTER the race that EG lost the BC because he ran in the JCGC? Does he believe that. Are Moran and Pope wrong in claiming that Pat Day was responsible for the loss? Who is right,Whittingham or Moran and Pope? Is Christine right in saying Pat Day was responsible for EGs loss or was he right when he said SS won because he was a better horse? What about Beyer? I suppose Christine & Beyer are covering their bases by taking both sides? These guys really know.
It sounds to me like agnostics,such as you, can be just as "religious" in their 4 month crusade 24/7, being hypocritical, pot calling the kettle black,etc. Sure, all of your "over and over again" Paulick and Beyer and Christine quotes are all in response to over and over again quotes. Pot calling the kettle black.
I have only cited Paulick in response to things you have said. For example, he said SS got "trapped" between Houston and EG as EG passed him and Pat V describes it as "getting checked into Houston's hind quarters". We discussed this and went back and forth on it at some length. However, I don't take specific quotations from Paulick & repeat them thousands of times over and over again such as you do with "Pat Day rode EG like the exposed end of a live wire?"
No,I don't believe Whittingham ever said that.However,Whittingham did say that Easy Goer ran two of the greatest 12f & 8f races he had ever seen in his career,&mentioned,before the Classic, that from his experience the longer races take much more out of horses than the shorter races,&that his horse was fresher than EG."Lukas didn't say that either,he said "EGis coming off a 12f race,&that if EG&SS ran against each other a number of more times,EG would win most of them,but Charlie is the master."
If you like the facts so much, and don't like the "experts opinions and analyzations and assessments", then you don't need to respond to "all of these people's" commenting or quoting on them. Unless you want to be hypocritical, or the pot calling the kettle black, or whatever. Who ever said the quotes of experts opinions were/are anything but experts opinions I agree with? Nothing more, nothing less.
YOU spray the same comments fairly indiscriminately all over YT& usually with not as a response to anyone, and have been doing it just as much as everybody else mission man. Pot calling the kettle black? Hypocrite?
Crist,Hirsch,Pope,Moran,Christine, Day,Lukas and Paulick and Beyer must all be very religious! LOL. Must be the same as you spraying what Paulick states also.
It doesn't strike me that you quote these "experts" as opinions that cannot be substantiated & do so in the interests of "analyzing" and "assessing". Instead, you spray the same comments fairly indiscriminantly all over Youtube & usually not as a response to anything specific anyone has said. It's like you are trying to spread some kind of religion. In the absence of real evidence or proof, I am an agnostic. When I comes to the outcome of horse races, I like the facts & the fact is EG lost.
Overturn? So by me agreeing with the some of the "experts opinions" on Day's riding, such as Crist,Moran,Pope,Christine,Day himself,etc etc, that makes me what? That makes me simply agreeing with some of the experts opinions on Day's "exposed end of a live wire, tentative", riding costing him by a whisker and desperate neck in these races. Would those changed results in the Preakness &Classic changed "rankings"? Yes probably, possibly, yes, but once again very debatable as to where.
If you don't care about the rankings, what are you trying to accomplish? Is this part of a campaign to overturn the results of the 1989 Preakness and 1989 BC without changing the rankings?
And not only are the quotes of Crist,Nack,Hirsch,Haskin,Lukas,Day,Whittingham,Pope,Moran,Paulick,Beyer,Christine,Finley,etc all "experts opinions", but so are the BH "rankings", which I don't really care that much about, whether you feel Easy Goer should be ranked #34, with SS ranked #43, they are all opinions, whether I agree or not.
The quotes of Crist,Nack,Pope,Moran,Hirsch,Hovdey,Paulick,Beyer,Christine,Finley,Lukas,Whittingham,Day,etc are all "experts opinions". Some of these experts opinions I agree with, and some I do not. Opinions are what make the world go round, whether they are assessing and analyzing and looking back or not. We all have differing point of views and opinions, and I agree with some of them, and some of them I don't.
I have never said these "experts" quotes were anything but opinions. I have always said these "experts" quotes were opinions, some I agree with and some I don't. I have always said that they were "opinions", whether I agree with some of them or not.
So it makes you "better and okay" because you have "ONLY" been at this 24/7 for 3 or 4 months? Highly hypocritical and pot calling the kettle black also. You are now "okay and better" because you have only been at it for 3 or 4 months? LOL
So if you repeat your differing point of view comments and quotes 24/7 for the last 3 or 4 months, and you are "responding" to all these comments and people, you don't expect to get quotes and comments repeated back at you?
I may have been at this for 3-4 months but you & your cohorts have been at this for years. You post the same quotes from Crist, Pope, Beyer, Moran et al. & when anyone begs to disagree you insult & ridicule them until they go away. Then you go off on your merry way and continue to bombard the web with these same quotes, all because you are angry that EG lost some 20 years ago. Why don't you get over it and stop venting your frustration at EG's losses on everyone else?
So, if you are repeating your different point of view comments 24/7 for the last 3 or 4 months, how many comments have you had to leave and repeat? It makes you okay because you only started for the 3 or 4 months? LOL
If you are on here for the last 3 or 4 months, and on here everyday for 24/7, how many of your other "points of views" were "repeated"? Now, it is about the number of comments being left? LOL.
I could care less about rankings like I just said. If I agree with "some of the opinions" of Hovdey,Crist,Moran,Pope,etc stating that Day's admittedly tentative riding,some total rider errors, riding him like the "exposed end of a live wire" cost him in his losses by a whisker and desperate neck, that is true.
The number of quotes I have made pale in comparison that the number you have posted and I did it mainly to show that there are points of view all over the map. I have repeatedly stressed that no one can prove anything and that if anyone really understood the interaction of all the variables that led to EG losing 3 of 4 to SS, they could make millions betting at the track.
I could care less about "rankings"! If you feel that Easy Goer should be ranked #34, with SS ranked #43, I still do not really care about that, nor do I care about ":rankings". The BH "rankings" are just as debatable and biased as Crist,Nack,Beyer,Christine,Paulick,Haskin,Pope,Moran,etc.
What do you hope to accomplish by plastering the same Paulick,Beyer,Christine quotes over and over again for the last 3-4 months 24/7? What do you hope to accomplish?
It's time for me to broaden what theme? I have never denied that Noor beat Citation, Damascus beat Dr Fager, Dr Fager beat Damascus, or that Beau Purple beat Kelso. Also, unlike you I have never tried to deny or make excuses for the fact that Sunday Silence beat Easy Goer. You and I probably agree that he should not be ranked as high as he is. Perhaps somewhere alongside Northern Dancer would be more appropriate.
WHO is also on here quoting Paulick, Beyer and Christine for the last 3 or 4 months, 24/7?? The answer is you Steve, sl7293! That is the pot calling the kettle black. I thought there quotes mean and meant nothing? So because I, and whoever else quote and comment. What about you quoting and commenting 24/7 for the last 3-4months?
I am not making excuses for Secretariat. You are the one making excuses for Easy Goer not me. Why does that make me the pot calling the kettle black? You are the one making excuses, not me. Yes, people have made excuses for Secretariat and others, but the number of those is miniscule compared to the sheer volume that you guys churn out. I don't know what you guys hope to accomplish by plastering these same Moran, Christine et al quotes verbatim over and over again all over the internet.
Who has also been on here everyday, 24/7 for the last 3 or so months?? Steve, the answer is you! That is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black, which also fits you to a tee. You better go on some of your Secretariat videos to see and read all of the "reasons,excuses" for his 3 losses. I can bet that the Slew,Bid,Affirmed,etc videos have plenty of this as well.
I am not the one making excuses for any horse. However, since you EASYGOERFLIES, DELMARCLUB et al have a penchant for doing this, I am only suggesting that you broaden your horizons and start making excuses on behalf of OTHER horses besides Easy Goer. The number of excuses you have made on behalf of EG on Youtube must outnumber those made on behalf of all the others you have listed by a factor of 10 to 1 or maybe even 50 to 1 or 100 to 1?
Yes, Beyer and Cristine have contradictory quotes indeed. It's time you broadened this theme of head to head scoreboards to include Noor beating Cy four of five races. Beau Purple beating Kelso three of four races. Damascus beating DF two of four. Formal Gold beating Skip Away four of six races. Etc and the others as well. Secretariat had every excuse in the world for his 3 losses at 3.Bid lost his two biggest races at 3, one to a horrible ride.Affirmed got trounced by Slew twice.Slew lost JCGC
I think you have spent enough time talking about how Pat Day screwed EG & his reputation. Why don't you start a discussion of how Manny Ycaza and Bill Shoemaker screwed Dr Fager or how Buckpasser and Secretariat were screwed by their trainers and handlers? It's time you broadened this theme to include other horses.
You are starting to catch on. No, I don't think quotes of Christine, Pope, Nack etc. amount to a hill of beans. To emphasize this point, I show Christine seemingly contradicting your selective quotes of what he thought. Bottom line is there are myriad variables that contributed to the outcome of this race & Bill Christine does not know what they are. If he did, he could make a fortune betting rather than peddling his opinions to people like you and me.
But most important of all, I thought that the quotes of Crist,Moran,Hirsch,Haskin,Beyer,Christine,Finley,Pope,etc didn't mean anything at all? Now they do? LOL
Paul Moran, "Most still believe EG is the better horse, but Pat Day's riding Easy Goer like the exposed end of a live wire cost him by a whisker and desperate neck in two races."
Wayne Lukas: "If EG and SS were to face each other a number of more races, Easy Goer would win most of them. But the master Whittingham is so good at getting a horse ready for the one big race, while EG targeted 5 championship races after the Triple Crown with his last being a 12f race, SS was targeted for 1."
Edwin Pope, with excerpts from Bill Nack in SI, "After a slow start,Pat Day decided to do Nothing and let EG settle 11 lengths back. Day cost EG a full head of steam on the backstretch.Day put out the fire(said he gave EG a breather when SS went around the far turn) of a splendid colt in full flame. If the jocks switched mounts, EG never loses by a whisker and desperate neck in two races."
Bill Christine: "P.Val's aggressiveness OVERWHELMS Day's usual patience. Pat Day made 3 big mistakes to get EG beat a whisker, while P.Val made 2 correct moves to win." "Tentative riding by Day, like he rode Seeking the Gold and Forty Niner."
More Bill Christine: "Easy Goer's backers were a stubborn bunch. By the time Sunday Silence had beaten Easy Goer for the third time, in the Breeders' Cup Classic at Gulfstream Park, the loser's supporters concluded that jockey Pat Day, not the ability of the horses, was the difference. Day might have been outridden by Valenzuela at Pimlico, in one of the best Preaknesses ever, but in reality Sunday Silence won with a turn of foot that usually left Easy Goer gasping.
Very great. Easy Goer was "better and faster" at the ages of two and three than Dr. Fager,Affirmed,Kelso,Round Table,Bid, according to Beyer, who you love to quote now.
Based on his performances, he could cut it as a two,three and four year old. Did his grapefruit,lumpy,misshapen avocado ankles get the best of him as an older horse? Yes. Based on his performances he could cut it. Actually,considering he had these horrible ankle problems, "it was a testament to his greatness that he could be such a great horse with his ankles." SS couldn't cut it at 2,3 and 4 yrs old. He needed to be rested for the summer/fall and was spent after the Preakness.
It is by no means safe to say that Easy Goer would have had great 4 or 5 yr old campaigns based on his performance at age 3. Horses like Kelso, Damascus, Round Table, Dr Fager, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid and others get credit for their performance on the track, after age 3 not because of anyone's estimation of what they would have done, but because of what they actually did..
No he couldn't cut it. They retired him because of a bone chip in his right ankle that compounded he problems he was having with his already bad left ankle.
Could not cut it?Well let's see, EG was one of the most brilliant two & three year olds.At the age of 4in just 3 starts,Easy Goer ran&won the Suburban giving 14-19 pounds away running on & up close to a blazing pace of 46,1:09 &change, in 2:00 flat(ran faster than he did at the age of 3),just a few ticks off Alysheba's(set in a weight for age)existing track record of 1:59:2,ran a blazing 7f in 1:22 on a sloppy track, &came out of that race "lame" and was rushed&trained in bar shoes to Met loss.
Based on Easy Goer's 2 & 3 year old campaigns,I would feel very safe in saying he would have also been a great 4 year old,if not for lameness&soundness issues catching up to him,& them hurrying up to stud. Anyway,"rankings" are highly debatable.At the same time Crist states, "In the absence of either,both EG&SS would have been dominant TC champions.Instead,each proved each other's brilliance", he also states "EG would be ranked up there w/Man OWar,Secretariat,Cy if not for his legit excuses&SS"
@flylion132 You can't project EGs 2 & 3 year old campaigns on to what he WOULD have done as a 4 or 5 yr old. No one knows & not every successfully 3 yr old does so well as an older. Based on the racing he actually did as a 4 yr old, EG likely could not cut it racing as an older horse.
Having just said that "rankings" are a highly debatable topic, which I am not that concerned with because it is an endless debate for everyone. With the notable exceptions of Man O'War,Secretariat and Colin, most,if not all of the top thirty "ranked" horses,had the benefit of at least a full 4 yr old campaign and older horse campaign which some would say dropped EG a bit,&many horses ran a lot. It is what you "favor" in "rankings". Cigar,for example was nothing at 2 &3 yrs old.
I am not so concerned in "rankings", as "rankings" are very,very debatable, endlessly debatable. That is just the Bloodhorse book's view, highly debatable. Serious cases can be made that Easy Goer,Damascus,Ruffian,Arts and Letters(#67), are underrated and deserve a higher ranking, while some others should be ranked lower. But once again, "rankings" can be endlessly debatable.
I'd say Whittingham also did a fair job of getting SS ready for the Derby, Preakness and a number of others in addition to that "one big race". If you are trying to make the case that SS doesn't deserve to be ranked so high, you'll get no argument from me. He didn't run often enough to warrant a #31 ranking IMO. However, if you think EG deserves to be ranked ahead of, say, Nashua, Swaps, or Round Table, I don't agree.
The bottomline conclusion to this,Steve, is that all of these "experts" have opinions and feelings and comparisons, that you and I can both quote from now and forever, but they are "opinions,etc", whether I agree with some of them,and you agree with others, they are opinions. And if it was "just" in terms of head to head, then Noor,Beau Purple,Formal Gold, would be considered "better and ranked higher" than Cy,Kelso,Skip Away, along with some others.
To be fair also to Crist, as he obviously feels EG was the better of the two. Crist also stated in the DRF Champions, "In the absence of either, both EG and SS would have been dominant Triple Crown winners, with only history as a benchmark. Instead each proved each other's brilliance." That is to be fair to Crist' opinion and SS, and him feeling EG was better, he still said that about both him and SS.
D. Wayne Lukas during the time of the Classic, "If Easy Goer and SS were to face each other a number of more times, Easy Goer would win most of them. But Whittingham is so great at getting all of his horses to run big for the one big,classic race."
Paul Moran after the BC, "Most still believe Easy Goer is the better racehorse, but Pat Day's riding EG like the exposed end of a live wire cost him by a whisker and desperate neck in two races."
Bill Christine- "Aggressive riding overwhelms Day's usual patience." While Day made 3 mistakes in the Preakness. Also, "tentative riding" in the Classic, much like when Day rode Forty Niner and Seeking the Gold.
Crist, "If the question on the ballot had been, which horse in the better racehorse, a lot more than 20 people would have voted against S.S." Who cares about opinions.
Crist, "In 2 of his 3 losses, EG had legitimate excuses, while SS never proved he was just plain better. EG walloped him by eight lengths. And in the other, no one was left thinking it could not have gone the other way."
Noor set 3 world records at 3 different distances in one season. That is even more WRs than EG set. He also set at least 3 additional track records that year. Noor is ranked what, 69th? Apparently running fast times isn't everything.
If "so and so" is this and that, then why do you quote Paulick or whomever you quote? That is hypocritical on your part for quoting Paulick,etc. If me or anybody else quotes Crist,Hovdey,Moran,Nack,Haskin it is no longer a meaningful "opinion." Do you want it both ways? So if you quote Paulick or whomever, and that is okay, then quoting the others is also okay.
Steve Crist is a sports writer & he is no more able to identify the interplay between all the myriad variables that determine the outcome of horse races than anyone else. If he was so smart, he would be putting his money where his mouth is and making millions at the track instead of expressing opinions that he cannot prove and earning substantially less for it.
Turn that around. Is Easy Goer the only horse or athlete that did not have legitamate excuses for some of their losses? Logically, it seems to me that Noor would be considered better that Citation winning four of five. Beau Purple beating Kelso three of four, the same. Formal Gold beating Skip Away four of six meetings, the same. EG-SS etc and others.
No one ever said that the 1960 Yankees didn't deserve to lose the 1960 Yankees. In spite of their impressive stats, pretty much everyone acknowledges that they got outplayed when it counted and that is why they lost.
Is Easy Goer the only horse or athlete who had LEGITIMATE EXCUSES. Did Dr Fager and Buckpasser have legitimate excuses for some of their losses. Were their excuses more or less legitimate than Easy Goer's? Did Secretariat have any legitimate excuses? Who is the final arbiter in determining the "legitimacy of excuses". Is it Jay Hovdey, Steve Crist, flylion132?
Jay Hovdey, "To define Easy Goer and his career in terms of SS is blatantly unfair. Easy Goer was remarkable, and a better horse and career. Much like the 1960 Yankees, who outscored PIT 55-27, outhit them significantly also, and fielded Mantle,Maris,Ford,Berra and Richardson, and had the only MVP ever from a losing team."
Crist, "In 2 of his 3 losses, EG had legitimate excuses, and never just proved he was plain better, and Easy Goer walloped him by 8 lengths. And in the other, left no one thinking it could not have gone the other way."
Paul Moran after the Classic, "Most still believe Easy Goer is the better horse, but Pat Day's riding Easy Goer like the exposed end of a live wire cost him by a whisker and desperate neck in two races." Bill Christine-, "Aggressiveness overwhelms Day's patience." "Tentative riding."
Edwin Pope, with excerpts from Bill Nack in SI, "After a slow break, Pat Day decided to do nothing and let EG settle 11 lengths back. Day then cost EG a full head of steam down the backstretch(as Day says, " I gave EG a breather when SS went around the far turn.").Day put out the fire of a splendid colt in full flame. If Day and McCarron switched mounts, EG never loses by a desperate neck."
Clearly, BEYER also said that SS was the better horse: "No conditions seem to faze him. When he encountered an unfamiliar muddy track at the Kentucky Derby, he handled it successfully--while Easy Goer didn't. When he was stopped cold at a critical stage of the Preakness--trouble that would have spelled certain defeat for almost any other horse--he recovered immediately and rushed back into contention." EG ran fast times, but Beyer felt was better.
Easy Goer ran seven or eight 120+ or faster beyers in his career(double the number of any horse since Bid, including Ghostzapper,Criminal Type,Skip Away,Cigar,Holy Bull,Alysheba,John Henry,Curlin,Zenyatta,Point Given,Formal Gold,Gentlemen,Tiznow,etc) while SS ran ONE! The great equalizer= Pat Day's admitted despicable riding costing him by an inch and desperate neck in two races. Having said that,SS was also a great horse with the greatest trainer of all time.
@EASYGOERFLIES Speaking of BEYER, he said: "The ability to out-kick a rival and the fortitude to outfight him--these are qualities that help define one horse's superiority over another. Moreover, Sunday Silence has scored his important victories in every corner of the country, while Easy Goer has never won an important race outside of his New York home base. "There is nothing fluky about Sunday Silence's 3-to-1 edge in his meetings with Easy Goer. By a slim margin, he is the superior athlete."
@EASYGOERFLIES Speaking of BEYER< he said after Easy Goer's career was over: "From a speed and performances standpoint, Easy Goer ran FASTER and BETTER than Seattle Slew, Affirmed, and Bid at the ages of two and three years old."
@EASYGOERFLIES Speaking of BEYER, not only did he state after Easy Goer's career was over, that Easy Goer ,from a speed-performances standpoint, that Easy Goer ran FASTER and BETTER than Slew,Affirmed &Bid at 2 and 3 yrs old." But on the anddownthestretchtheycome site, BEYER was interviewed on the day Pat Day retired, and Andrew Beyer lamented Day's riding on EG and riding in general, and the man Beyer called Pat "wait all" Day.
But the point I was making is that, perhaps the opinions, whether in review or not, of Nack,Crist,Paulick,Pope,Moran,Lukas,Whittingham,etc were correct. Perhaps. I may agree with some points they made, but not all.
I never said you did. I just said I changed the subject to all of Easy Goer's performances speaking for themselves vs. PO's performances. Instead of opinions on bad rides, campaigns, etc. I admitted I changed the subject, but that seems to be the way things are going anyways.
That may be a separate topic I just wrote, I mean my last comment was in regards to all of Easy Goer's performances, which is a separate issue and topic than opinions of bad rides or campaigns. I know I changed the subject a bit there.
Damascus also won 21 times including victories over some of the greatest horses of all time. He ran all the time whether well prepared not. His owners never made excuses. They simply let him run and let the chips fall where they may. In my opinion, he is underrated.
Performances? Easy Goer's record 3 yr old mile of all time in 1:32:2, smashing Secretariat's mark and a fifth off the world record of Fager. His second fastest Belmont of all time with only Secretariat faster.His top 3 all time fastest Travers,top 5 all time fastest Whitney and Champagne,his top 3-5 all time fastest Suburban,his fastest 7f in Florida,his 6.5f on track record,his campaign which was historic, and performances didn't speak for themselves? PO had what? 3 great performances?
Prove Out's actions pretty much speak for themselves. Haskins never ventured an opinion that Secretariat would have won if he would have been better prepared. Neither did he suggest that Riva Ridge was robbed in the JCSC. He pretty much let Prove Out's performances speak for themselves.
Perhaps Crist,Pope,Moran,Nack,Haskin,etc were are all correct in their opinions, whether it was before or in review. Perhaps. Don't forget Paulick, perhaps him as well. But we've already previously established that all these "experts" are biased to a certain degree. Both sides. Whether I agree with one side of these, that is strictly my opinion and agreeing with a certain number of what these "biased experts" stated. Some, not all, some.
If Haskin, Nack, Crist, Pope etc. really knew what they were talking about, they would have known in advance that Pat Day would blow the race, or the EG would lose because he had collic or that he couldn't win because of the JCGC. They could make millions putting their money where their mouth is by betting at the race track rather than sharing their "opinions" with you and me. Truly they don't know. There are too many variables.
Wait so, you care what Paulick's opinion was, but don't care what Crist,Pope,Moran,Nack,Haskin were? Perhaps Haskin,Nack,Crist, etc were correct. Perhaps their opinions were correct.
I am getting a little confused now. Did EG lose because Pat Day was riding or because he had colic or because he run the JCGC or because he ran 5 in 9 weeks? As an aside, Damascus ran what I believe were the same 5 - in 7 weeks, but then again he did that all the time.
LOL! Meeeeeee? Me let it go? Who has been on here 24/7 for 3 months? Is it because the other EG fans are on 24/7/365 so you have to be? You let it go lol!
Edwin Pope quote, along with some excerpts from other interviews, including Nack in SI.- "After falling over 11 lengths back after a slow start, Pat Day chose do nothing and let EG settle, but then Day cost EG a full head of steam down the backstretch(Day said "I gave him a breather when SS went around the far turn"). Day put out the fire a splendid colt in full flame. If Day and McCarron switched mounts, EG wins and does not lose by a desperate neck." Who cares really?
This isn't Science. There is no magic formula for determining what woulda, choulda, or shoulda happened. You can make very convincing arguments that Buckpasser and Dr Fager lost races due to jockey and/or trainer error, You can say Dr Fager shoulda been 20 out of 22 lifetime, but who cares?
Pat Day- "Absolutely rider error and I got the best horse beat an inch" in the Preakness. And "I didn't ride my best race in the Classic. When SS went around the far turn, I gave EG a breather again." Who cares?
Crist- " In 2 of his 3 defeats to SS, EG had legitimate excuses, and also left no one thinking it could not have gone the other way. EG walloped him by eight lengths in the other,and SS won by an inch and neck, but never in a way that he was just plain better." Who cares?
My book also states that Shug ran EG in the race meaning he believed he was ready. After the race, he changed his mind. Of course this had nothing to do with the fact that EG lost. Shug simply came to the conclusion that EG was not ready AFTER the race and he would have reached the same conclusion had EG won or lost. We both agree on that right?
Paul Moran, "Many still believe EG is the better horse. The better horse was defeated by an inch and desperate neck due to Pat Day riding EG like the exposed end of a live wire." Who cares?
Your book cites he came out of the race just twelve days earlier lame, which forced him to work him in bar shoes for the lameness, and Shug then told your lovely Ray Paulick, or his sources, that he rushed him with the bar shoes and lameness to make the Met 12 days later. Read more of your book, looks like Whittingham liked to make excuses calling SS loss in the G2 Swaps due to Valenzuela's terrible riding. What's better= making excuses for bad riding or citing he rushed the horse thru lameness?
Said Andy Beyer of SS vs EG: "The ability to out-kick a rival and the fortitude to outfight him--these are qualities that help define one horse's superiority over another. Moreover, Sunday Silence has scored his important victories in every corner of the country, while Easy Goer has never won an important race outside of his New York home base. "There is nothing fluky about Sunday Silence's 3-to-1 edge in his meetings with Easy Goer. By a slim margin, he is the superior athlete." --Who cares?
So it was Easy Goer and Secretariat's and Sunday Silence's and Count Fleet and Man OWar and Majestic Prince and Arts and Letter's lack of a four year old or older horse campaign, whether due to injury forced retirement or straight retirement that makes them better or not.
Before the Met mile, Shug entered him in the race apparently believing he was ready. AFTER EG lost the race, Shug said EG was not ready and he should not have entered him. If EG had won the race would Shug have cited that as proof that EG was not ready? Being a man of firm convictions perhaps he would have. Shug is also quoted in the LA Times saying about EG: He just got outrun," McGaughey said, "flat outrun. Criminal Type won that race." Quoting experts like Shug is informative.
I am unclear what your point was about Turkoman. As I understand it, he came in 2nd in the JCGC and 2nd in the BC. Even though he ran the 1 1/2 mile JCGC and managed to place 2nd, this did not prevent him from also placing 2nd in the BC. How can you conclude from this that his performance in the BC was impaired by his perfomance in the JCGC?
I never said you lied. I simply quoted what you said verbatim and said that is not what Paulick said. You wouldn't like about this because we can both look it up.
Most of the horses you mention had signficant achievments after age 3. One of the big exceptions is Secretariat. Even though you completely disagree, most people believe that Secretariat's victories and achievements at age 3 were more impressive than those of Easy Goer at the same age.
Tip your hat? Noor beat Citation 4 of 5 races, over 80% of the time! Beau Purple beat Kelso 75% of the time in 3 of 4 races! Damascus beat Dr Fager 2 of 4 races. Wajima beat Forego 2 of 3 times. Interco beat John Henry 2 of 3 times. Formal Gold beat Skip Away 4 of 6 times. Akureyri beat Pleasant Colony 3 of 4 times. Tip your hat to these too.
DELMARCLUB1 1 month ago 2
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I any sport, when someone beats you 75% of the time, you have to tip your hat dont you???
gordovike 1 month ago
Like many of the racing experts from both coasts stated, and even stated by trainers Wayne Lukas and Woody Stephens, but stated the most correct by Paul Moran of espn, "Easy Goer was the better,more extraordinary,phenomenal horse, but was defeated by whisker and desperate neck in two races because Pat Day rode him like the exposed end of a live wire,rode him horribly." I agree
flylion132 1 month ago 8
Have you figured out yet why Secretariat lost 5 times in his career, 2 of them by more than 4 lengths? Have you figured out why Citation lost 4 of 5 to Noor, and lost 13 races? Dr Fager lost 2 to Damascus and 4 times. Forego lost over 20 times. Kelso lost over 20 times. Affirmed and Buckpasser lost 7 and 6 races each.Bid lost 4 times,and the 2 big,big ones.
PhippsStable 1 month ago 3
Once again, you don't know your racing history at all. Whittingham ordered McCarron not to hit the horse with the whip, so instead he had to cross rein, throw crosses, and show the horse the whip, as that was the trainers orders. Whittingham figured out after his losses in the Belmont and G-2 Swaps, that he hated being hit,win or lose, he would duck,shy and prop from the whip,so they didnt want to take any chances. Easy Goer won 14 races hand ridden,who cares, including widening in the Belmont.
PhippsStable 1 month ago 4
Same thin I said, except different words from Steve Crist and Joe Hirsch. "Easy Goer would be mentioned in the same reverential breath as Secretariat(lost 5 races), Citation(lost 4 of 5 to Noor),Man OWar, Dr Fager(lost 2 of 4 to Damascus),Kelso(lost 3 of 4 to Beau Purple)&Forego(lost 2 of 3 to Big Spruce),and his campaign acclaimed the greatest in racing history,if not for 2 typically atrocious Pat Day rides that got him beat a nose and desperate neck in 2 races."
DELMARCLUB1 1 month ago 10
Pat Day's admittedly despicable riding is what got the vastly faster horse beat an inch and desperate neck in two races. The great equalizer= Pat Day's admittedly despicable riding getting him beat an inch and desperate neck in two races. Easy Goer was the vastly faster horse, he ran 7 or 8 120+ or higher beyers(double the amount of any horse since Bid,including Ghostzapper,Alysheba,Curlin,John Henry,Skip Away,Cigar,Holy Bull,etc) while SS ran ONE! one
EASYGOERFLIES 1 month ago 9
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indeed it was SS in a racing epic, for the third time!!!
He's certainly the best horse i've ever bet to WIN.
gordovike 1 month ago
As poorly timed a move as can be by Pat Day, as Easy Goer was literally going double there the last furlong. Two great horses nonetheless.
PhippsStable 1 month ago 5
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@PhippsStable
EG was going double??,
was SS whipped at all by CM???
It appears he was urged only.
gordovike 1 month ago
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One writer described Sunday as "nothing if not arrogant." She also said that Sunday in the post parade danced & pranced, & all but bared his teeth & said "mine"! He was as they say "loaded for bear"! Pat Day's bad ride notwithstanding, I don't think anything could have beat Sunday that day...he was not to be denied. All grit and a fighter, he had had to fight for everything he got, even down to the end in his battle with liminitis through several surgeries, finally losing bravely in 2002.
TennGardener 1 month ago
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The thing about this race, & the rivalry, is the imagery of the "low bred" against the "blue blood", East Coast/West Coast...the whole magilla. I can understand Easy Goer's fans feeling cheated in a number of ways -- EG had won FIVE G1s up to the Classic, and he had easily beat SS in the Belmont. But Sunday's two TC wins & a couple others, along with his being one of the most competitive horses ever, set up for a "race of the century" show down. SS owned the post parade, the race, & rivalry.
TennGardener 1 month ago
Simple: What was the great equalizer? Pat Day's despicable riding. Easy Goer was the vastly faster horse. Easy Goer ran seven or eight 120+ or higher beyers in his career(that is double the amount of any horse since Bid, including Ghostzapper,Cigar,Alysheba,John Henry,Holy Bull,Skip Away,etc) while SS ran ONE!!ONE!! Pat Day's despicable riding getting him defeated by an inch and desperate neck in two races was the great equalizer.
EASYGOERFLIES 1 month ago 7
Wrong.Though Pat Day rode despicably. P.Val was the one who carried Easy Goer and Day out 7 or 8 wide down the backstretch. Day overreacted and sent Easy Goer through a monster,very premature move,passed SS easily and was well clear of him and did not cut him off at all. Day then gets outmanuevered for the stretch,getting trapped down on the fence &P.Val bangs him in even tighter,then Day cocks his head with a lead in deep stretch. Day made 3 huge mistakes and still only got beat an inch.
EASYGOERFLIES 1 month ago 5
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@EASYGOERFLIES
The question is
who won the race?
there will always be good excuses.
gordovike 1 month ago
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PAT DAY WAS NOT ONLY A BAD RIDER IN BIG RACES BUT HE WAS ALSO A DIRTY SORE LOSER. JUST WATCH HOW HE PUTS EG, SS, PATV AND HIMSELF IN DANGER AT THE HALF MILE POLE OF THE PREAKNESS. EVEN WITH THE DIRTY TACTICS BY PDAY SS STILL CAME BACK AND WON THE RACE, SS WAS A SUPER HORSE INDEED.
gordovike 1 month ago
Agree totally. I agree with what many of the racing experts from both coasts stated(Christine,Nack,Crist,Pope,etc) and even stated by trainers Wayne Lukas and Woody Stephens, but stated the best by Paul Moran of espn, "Easy Goer was the better,more brilliant,phenomenal,extraordinary horse, but was defeated by a whisker and desperate neck in 2 races b/c Pat Day rode him "like the exposed end of a live wire" stop & start,horrible riding. I agree, though both great horses indeed.
flylion132 2 months ago 6
Scoreboard??? Lol. Noor beat Citation 4 outta 5. Beau Purple beat Kelso 3 outta 4! Damascus beat Dr Fager 2 outta 4. Interco beat John Henry 2 outta 3. Formal Gold beat Skip Away 4 outta 6. Big Spruce beat Forego 2 outta 3. Akureyri beat Pleasant Colony 3 outta 4!
DELMARCLUB1 2 months ago 3
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ITS CLEAR DA BETTER HORSE WAS SS REGARDLESS OF JOCKEY OR TRAINER EXCUSE. SS BEAT EG 3 OUTTA 4. SCOREBOARD!!!!
THE ON COMING POWER OF EG MY BEHIND
gordovike 2 months ago
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PhippsStable 2 months ago 2
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Game. Set. MATCH.
greyhorseazeri 2 months ago
Also Edwin Pope's and Bill Nack's distinct quotes on this Classic: "After a slow start, Pat Day decided to do nothing and let him settle 12 lengths off the lead.Then Day cost Easy Goer a full head of steam on the backstretch.He put out the fire of a splendid champ in full flame(Day said he gave EG a breather when SS went around the far turn, just as Day said he did in the Preakness also).If Day&McCarron had switched mounts,Easy Goer never loses by a desperate neck."
EASYGOERFLIES 3 months ago 3
When you copy and paste your comments, Youtube automatically spams them and they are not seen.
EASYGOERFLIES 3 months ago
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Coming to the final furlong... Sunday Silence surges to the front...
loujr92173 3 months ago
Everybody didn't call him "Pat wait ALL Day" for no reason.
PatWaitAllDay 3 months ago 2
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Coming to the final furlong... Sunday Silence surges the front...
loujr92173 3 months ago
But the big difference was that Easy Goer was always, in talent,ability,constitution,speed-stamina combo, a top ten all time thorobred, with the proof of this coming from his many,many top ten all time performances in his career at every distance,6.5F,7F,8F,9F,10F,12F, but the 2 typically atrocious Pat Day rides(he called his own riding total rider errors) that got him beat a nose and desperation neck in 2 races, sent him down into the thirties where ss always belonged.
DELMARCLUB1 4 months ago 18
"Clearly the better horse"? Hmmm. Then that means that Beau Purple was "clearly the better horse than Kelso" as he was 3 to 1 against Kelso. Same thing with Noor's record vs. Citation was 4 to 1. Same thing with Damascus being 2 to 2 vs. Dr Fager. Same thing with Formal beating Skip Away 4 of 6 races. Same thing with Wajima beating Forego 2 of 3 races.Same thing with Star of Cozzene beating Kotashaan 3 of 4 races.Same thing with Interco beating John Henry 2 of 3 races. Clearly.
DELMARCLUB1 4 months ago 9
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who cares what the Experts say to this day ...Sunday Silence was clearly the better horse and his record against EG was 3 to 1
cowhanson 4 months ago
I believe I just have to start my agreement with an experts opinion by stating that "perhaps Crist,Pope,Paulick,Moran,etc were correct in their opinion." After all, I am sure that plenty of other experts,etc could think of plenty of other horses, on their top or best or better days, that could have beaten SEC on that day, but "perhaps Haskin was right" though.
flylion132 4 months ago
I am sure that plenty of other experts,etc could think of plenty of other horses, on their best or better days, that could have beat Secretariat on that day, but "PERHAPS Haskin was right" in his opinion statement. "Perhaps Crist was right" or "perhaps Moran and Edwin Pope were right" in their opinion.
flylion132 4 months ago
So, taking advice and a line from you, I just state in my comments, "Perhaps Crist was right", or "perhaps Edwin Pope was right", or "perhaps Haskin was right" when he said so and so. Like you say it, "perhaps this so and so expert's opinion was correct." Perhaps.
flylion132 4 months ago
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And no doubt you and your friends will also continue insulting, ridiculing, me and anyone else who disagrees with you. You will also continue marking as spam any opinions you disagree with in violation of Youtube guidelines on when comments should be marked as spam,
sl7293 4 months ago
"Perhaps Haskin was right" comment by you 3 years ago(oh yes, who has been on here also for years and years?). Perhaps Haskin was right? Well, I am sure plenty of people, experts, etc can think of plenty of horses, at their best, who could have beat Secretariat that particular day. "Perhaps Haskin was right" though. I should say, perhaps "Crist was right" or so and so was right.
flylion132 4 months ago
That is a highly hypocritical comment there! You don't quote experts because you agree? "Perhaps Haskin was right comment" 3 years ago(By the way, who has also been on YT for 3 years?). Maybe I should state it like you do, and just say, "perhaps so and so is right."
flylion132 4 months ago
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sl7293 4 months ago
How many times are you going to repeat that same comment? Pot calling the kettle black, hyporcrite.Not that I care, nor does it matter, but guys like Crist and Beyer do make "plenty of money", don't know if it is in the millions, but Crist and Beyer do make plenty of money, but who cares about that? I don't.
flylion132 4 months ago
All of my quotes of these experts opinions, I state I am agreeing with some of the experts opinions. It is an agreement or a disagreement on opinion. I have never said anything about it as "fact". Pot calling the kettle black, hypocrite.
flylion132 4 months ago
I don't quote Paulick, Beyer, and Christine because I agree with their opinions. I only do so to illustrate the fact that none of these so-called experts knows what they are talking about. Talk is cheap. If they really understood enough about all of the variables that determine the outcome of the race to know that Pat Day was the deciding factor, they would be making millions betting at the track rather than writing about it.
sl7293 4 months ago
I will quote the opinions of some of these experts listed just as much as you repeat your quotes and opinions and comments. I will do it as much as I want, and you do it as much as you want, pot calling the kettle black, hypocrite.
flylion132 4 months ago
Agreeing with the opinions of some of what experts such as, Crist,Hovdey,Hirsch,Pope,Moran,etc stated is nothing more than agreeing with the opinions of what some experts stated. And pot calling the kettle black, you have been repeating your same thing just as much as everybody else, pot calling the kettle black, and highly hyporcritical.
flylion132 4 months ago
Actually your opinions don't ruffle my feathers. The thing the ruffle's my fathers is the you repeat these thousands of times over again. You attempt to bludgeon people with it including the fact that you and your friends insult and ridicule people, not just me, who disagree with you. When someone disagrees with you and or your friends mark those comments as spam. And you do all of this on behalf of something you describe simply as an OPINION?
sl7293 4 months ago
I just happen to agree with some,not all, of what many of the experts opinions,Crist,Hovdey,Moran,Pope,etc,were and are on this. Once again, they are just opinions of experts, and agreeing with some of what Crist,Christine,Hirsch,Hovdey,Pope,Moran,etc. And I will quote them as much as I want, just like you can quote Paulick,Beyer and Christine's other or contrasting opinions, as much as you want.
flylion132 4 months ago
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The difference is I make no claims that I know why EG lost that cannot be substantiated. Also, I don't repeat these claims over and over again thousands of times as if they are gospel truth. Instead, my central point is no one can say with any degree of certainty that Pat Day caused EG to lose the BC and Preakness. You have no way of knowing whether claims by Beyer and Christine, that SS was simply the better horse are true or not. All we really know is SS won.
sl7293 4 months ago
Once again, the "experts opinions" are just that, and some of those opinions I agree with, and if my agreement with some of these experts opinions gets you angry and ruffles your agnostic feathers, then so be it. Once again, they are some experts opinions who I agree with,and some I don't.
flylion132 4 months ago
Let's see some of "my quotes.". Did Crist exactly say "Day rode him like the exposed end of a live wire"? No. Did Bill Christine? No. Did Jay Hovdey? No. Did Bill Nack? No. Did Joe Hirsch? Did Edwin Pope? Did Joe Drape's book? Did Wayne Lukas? Did Whittingham? Did Pat Day? Did Paulick? Did Beyer? Did Haskin state this quote? No, the only one who said that was Paul Moran, but what about the other quotes? They didn't.
flylion132 4 months ago
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Did Whittingham say AFTER the race that EG lost the BC because he ran in the JCGC? Does he believe that. Are Moran and Pope wrong in claiming that Pat Day was responsible for the loss? Who is right,Whittingham or Moran and Pope? Is Christine right in saying Pat Day was responsible for EGs loss or was he right when he said SS won because he was a better horse? What about Beyer? I suppose Christine & Beyer are covering their bases by taking both sides? These guys really know.
sl7293 4 months ago
It sounds to me like agnostics,such as you, can be just as "religious" in their 4 month crusade 24/7, being hypocritical, pot calling the kettle black,etc. Sure, all of your "over and over again" Paulick and Beyer and Christine quotes are all in response to over and over again quotes. Pot calling the kettle black.
flylion132 4 months ago
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I have only cited Paulick in response to things you have said. For example, he said SS got "trapped" between Houston and EG as EG passed him and Pat V describes it as "getting checked into Houston's hind quarters". We discussed this and went back and forth on it at some length. However, I don't take specific quotations from Paulick & repeat them thousands of times over and over again such as you do with "Pat Day rode EG like the exposed end of a live wire?"
sl7293 4 months ago
It is your "opinion" that Easy Goer should be ranked #34, while SS ranked about #43. That is your opinion.
flylion132 4 months ago
No,I don't believe Whittingham ever said that.However,Whittingham did say that Easy Goer ran two of the greatest 12f & 8f races he had ever seen in his career,&mentioned,before the Classic, that from his experience the longer races take much more out of horses than the shorter races,&that his horse was fresher than EG."Lukas didn't say that either,he said "EGis coming off a 12f race,&that if EG&SS ran against each other a number of more times,EG would win most of them,but Charlie is the master."
flylion132 4 months ago
If you like the facts so much, and don't like the "experts opinions and analyzations and assessments", then you don't need to respond to "all of these people's" commenting or quoting on them. Unless you want to be hypocritical, or the pot calling the kettle black, or whatever. Who ever said the quotes of experts opinions were/are anything but experts opinions I agree with? Nothing more, nothing less.
flylion132 4 months ago
YOU spray the same comments fairly indiscriminately all over YT& usually with not as a response to anyone, and have been doing it just as much as everybody else mission man. Pot calling the kettle black? Hypocrite?
flylion132 4 months ago
Crist,Hirsch,Pope,Moran,Christine, Day,Lukas and Paulick and Beyer must all be very religious! LOL. Must be the same as you spraying what Paulick states also.
flylion132 4 months ago
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It doesn't strike me that you quote these "experts" as opinions that cannot be substantiated & do so in the interests of "analyzing" and "assessing". Instead, you spray the same comments fairly indiscriminantly all over Youtube & usually not as a response to anything specific anyone has said. It's like you are trying to spread some kind of religion. In the absence of real evidence or proof, I am an agnostic. When I comes to the outcome of horse races, I like the facts & the fact is EG lost.
sl7293 4 months ago
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Does Whittingham say that Pat Day rode EG like the exposed end of a live wire?
sl7293 4 months ago
Overturn? So by me agreeing with the some of the "experts opinions" on Day's riding, such as Crist,Moran,Pope,Christine,Day himself,etc etc, that makes me what? That makes me simply agreeing with some of the experts opinions on Day's "exposed end of a live wire, tentative", riding costing him by a whisker and desperate neck in these races. Would those changed results in the Preakness &Classic changed "rankings"? Yes probably, possibly, yes, but once again very debatable as to where.
flylion132 4 months ago
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If you don't care about the rankings, what are you trying to accomplish? Is this part of a campaign to overturn the results of the 1989 Preakness and 1989 BC without changing the rankings?
sl7293 4 months ago
And not only are the quotes of Crist,Nack,Hirsch,Haskin,Lukas,Day,Whittingham,Pope,Moran,Paulick,Beyer,Christine,Finley,etc all "experts opinions", but so are the BH "rankings", which I don't really care that much about, whether you feel Easy Goer should be ranked #34, with SS ranked #43, they are all opinions, whether I agree or not.
flylion132 4 months ago
The quotes of Crist,Nack,Pope,Moran,Hirsch,Hovdey,Paulick,Beyer,Christine,Finley,Lukas,Whittingham,Day,etc are all "experts opinions". Some of these experts opinions I agree with, and some I do not. Opinions are what make the world go round, whether they are assessing and analyzing and looking back or not. We all have differing point of views and opinions, and I agree with some of them, and some of them I don't.
flylion132 4 months ago
I have never said these "experts" quotes were anything but opinions. I have always said these "experts" quotes were opinions, some I agree with and some I don't. I have always said that they were "opinions", whether I agree with some of them or not.
flylion132 4 months ago
We have already established that all of these "experts" opinions and thoughts are biased and some have differing point of views.
flylion132 4 months ago
So it makes you "better and okay" because you have "ONLY" been at this 24/7 for 3 or 4 months? Highly hypocritical and pot calling the kettle black also. You are now "okay and better" because you have only been at it for 3 or 4 months? LOL
flylion132 4 months ago
So if you repeat your differing point of view comments and quotes 24/7 for the last 3 or 4 months, and you are "responding" to all these comments and people, you don't expect to get quotes and comments repeated back at you?
flylion132 4 months ago
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I may have been at this for 3-4 months but you & your cohorts have been at this for years. You post the same quotes from Crist, Pope, Beyer, Moran et al. & when anyone begs to disagree you insult & ridicule them until they go away. Then you go off on your merry way and continue to bombard the web with these same quotes, all because you are angry that EG lost some 20 years ago. Why don't you get over it and stop venting your frustration at EG's losses on everyone else?
sl7293 4 months ago
So, if you are repeating your different point of view comments 24/7 for the last 3 or 4 months, how many comments have you had to leave and repeat? It makes you okay because you only started for the 3 or 4 months? LOL
flylion132 4 months ago
If you are on here for the last 3 or 4 months, and on here everyday for 24/7, how many of your other "points of views" were "repeated"? Now, it is about the number of comments being left? LOL.
flylion132 4 months ago
I could care less about rankings like I just said. If I agree with "some of the opinions" of Hovdey,Crist,Moran,Pope,etc stating that Day's admittedly tentative riding,some total rider errors, riding him like the "exposed end of a live wire" cost him in his losses by a whisker and desperate neck, that is true.
flylion132 4 months ago
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The number of quotes I have made pale in comparison that the number you have posted and I did it mainly to show that there are points of view all over the map. I have repeatedly stressed that no one can prove anything and that if anyone really understood the interaction of all the variables that led to EG losing 3 of 4 to SS, they could make millions betting at the track.
sl7293 4 months ago
I could care less about "rankings"! If you feel that Easy Goer should be ranked #34, with SS ranked #43, I still do not really care about that, nor do I care about ":rankings". The BH "rankings" are just as debatable and biased as Crist,Nack,Beyer,Christine,Paulick,Haskin,Pope,Moran,etc.
flylion132 4 months ago
So you are saying that Easy Goer should be ranked #34, while SS should be ranked #43?
flylion132 4 months ago
What do you hope to accomplish by plastering the same Paulick,Beyer,Christine quotes over and over again for the last 3-4 months 24/7? What do you hope to accomplish?
flylion132 4 months ago
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It's time for me to broaden what theme? I have never denied that Noor beat Citation, Damascus beat Dr Fager, Dr Fager beat Damascus, or that Beau Purple beat Kelso. Also, unlike you I have never tried to deny or make excuses for the fact that Sunday Silence beat Easy Goer. You and I probably agree that he should not be ranked as high as he is. Perhaps somewhere alongside Northern Dancer would be more appropriate.
sl7293 4 months ago
WHO is also on here quoting Paulick, Beyer and Christine for the last 3 or 4 months, 24/7?? The answer is you Steve, sl7293! That is the pot calling the kettle black. I thought there quotes mean and meant nothing? So because I, and whoever else quote and comment. What about you quoting and commenting 24/7 for the last 3-4months?
flylion132 4 months ago
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I am not making excuses for Secretariat. You are the one making excuses for Easy Goer not me. Why does that make me the pot calling the kettle black? You are the one making excuses, not me. Yes, people have made excuses for Secretariat and others, but the number of those is miniscule compared to the sheer volume that you guys churn out. I don't know what you guys hope to accomplish by plastering these same Moran, Christine et al quotes verbatim over and over again all over the internet.
sl7293 4 months ago
Who has also been on here everyday, 24/7 for the last 3 or so months?? Steve, the answer is you! That is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black, which also fits you to a tee. You better go on some of your Secretariat videos to see and read all of the "reasons,excuses" for his 3 losses. I can bet that the Slew,Bid,Affirmed,etc videos have plenty of this as well.
flylion132 4 months ago
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I am not the one making excuses for any horse. However, since you EASYGOERFLIES, DELMARCLUB et al have a penchant for doing this, I am only suggesting that you broaden your horizons and start making excuses on behalf of OTHER horses besides Easy Goer. The number of excuses you have made on behalf of EG on Youtube must outnumber those made on behalf of all the others you have listed by a factor of 10 to 1 or maybe even 50 to 1 or 100 to 1?
sl7293 4 months ago
Yes, Beyer and Cristine have contradictory quotes indeed. It's time you broadened this theme of head to head scoreboards to include Noor beating Cy four of five races. Beau Purple beating Kelso three of four races. Damascus beating DF two of four. Formal Gold beating Skip Away four of six races. Etc and the others as well. Secretariat had every excuse in the world for his 3 losses at 3.Bid lost his two biggest races at 3, one to a horrible ride.Affirmed got trounced by Slew twice.Slew lost JCGC
flylion132 4 months ago
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I think you have spent enough time talking about how Pat Day screwed EG & his reputation. Why don't you start a discussion of how Manny Ycaza and Bill Shoemaker screwed Dr Fager or how Buckpasser and Secretariat were screwed by their trainers and handlers? It's time you broadened this theme to include other horses.
sl7293 4 months ago
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You are starting to catch on. No, I don't think quotes of Christine, Pope, Nack etc. amount to a hill of beans. To emphasize this point, I show Christine seemingly contradicting your selective quotes of what he thought. Bottom line is there are myriad variables that contributed to the outcome of this race & Bill Christine does not know what they are. If he did, he could make a fortune betting rather than peddling his opinions to people like you and me.
sl7293 4 months ago
But most important of all, I thought that the quotes of Crist,Moran,Hirsch,Haskin,Beyer,Christine,Finley,Pope,etc didn't mean anything at all? Now they do? LOL
flylion132 4 months ago
Paul Moran, "Most still believe EG is the better horse, but Pat Day's riding Easy Goer like the exposed end of a live wire cost him by a whisker and desperate neck in two races."
flylion132 4 months ago
Wayne Lukas: "If EG and SS were to face each other a number of more races, Easy Goer would win most of them. But the master Whittingham is so good at getting a horse ready for the one big race, while EG targeted 5 championship races after the Triple Crown with his last being a 12f race, SS was targeted for 1."
flylion132 4 months ago
Crist, "If the question on the ballot had been, who is the better horse, A LOT more than 20 people would have voted against SS."
flylion132 4 months ago
Edwin Pope, with excerpts from Bill Nack in SI, "After a slow start,Pat Day decided to do Nothing and let EG settle 11 lengths back. Day cost EG a full head of steam on the backstretch.Day put out the fire(said he gave EG a breather when SS went around the far turn) of a splendid colt in full flame. If the jocks switched mounts, EG never loses by a whisker and desperate neck in two races."
flylion132 4 months ago
Bill Christine: "P.Val's aggressiveness OVERWHELMS Day's usual patience. Pat Day made 3 big mistakes to get EG beat a whisker, while P.Val made 2 correct moves to win." "Tentative riding by Day, like he rode Seeking the Gold and Forty Niner."
flylion132 4 months ago
LOL! I thought the quotes of Crist,Christine,Beyer,Nack,Haskin,Hirsch,etc didn't mean anything? LOL. Hypocrtiical?
flylion132 4 months ago
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More Bill Christine: "Easy Goer's backers were a stubborn bunch. By the time Sunday Silence had beaten Easy Goer for the third time, in the Breeders' Cup Classic at Gulfstream Park, the loser's supporters concluded that jockey Pat Day, not the ability of the horses, was the difference. Day might have been outridden by Valenzuela at Pimlico, in one of the best Preaknesses ever, but in reality Sunday Silence won with a turn of foot that usually left Easy Goer gasping.
sl7293 4 months ago
Very great. Easy Goer was "better and faster" at the ages of two and three than Dr. Fager,Affirmed,Kelso,Round Table,Bid, according to Beyer, who you love to quote now.
flylion132 4 months ago
Based on his performances, he could cut it as a two,three and four year old. Did his grapefruit,lumpy,misshapen avocado ankles get the best of him as an older horse? Yes. Based on his performances he could cut it. Actually,considering he had these horrible ankle problems, "it was a testament to his greatness that he could be such a great horse with his ankles." SS couldn't cut it at 2,3 and 4 yrs old. He needed to be rested for the summer/fall and was spent after the Preakness.
flylion132 4 months ago
It is by no means safe to say that Easy Goer would have had great 4 or 5 yr old campaigns based on his performance at age 3. Horses like Kelso, Damascus, Round Table, Dr Fager, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid and others get credit for their performance on the track, after age 3 not because of anyone's estimation of what they would have done, but because of what they actually did..
sl7293 4 months ago
No he couldn't cut it. They retired him because of a bone chip in his right ankle that compounded he problems he was having with his already bad left ankle.
sl7293 4 months ago
Could not cut it?Well let's see, EG was one of the most brilliant two & three year olds.At the age of 4in just 3 starts,Easy Goer ran&won the Suburban giving 14-19 pounds away running on & up close to a blazing pace of 46,1:09 &change, in 2:00 flat(ran faster than he did at the age of 3),just a few ticks off Alysheba's(set in a weight for age)existing track record of 1:59:2,ran a blazing 7f in 1:22 on a sloppy track, &came out of that race "lame" and was rushed&trained in bar shoes to Met loss.
flylion132 4 months ago
Based on Easy Goer's 2 & 3 year old campaigns,I would feel very safe in saying he would have also been a great 4 year old,if not for lameness&soundness issues catching up to him,& them hurrying up to stud. Anyway,"rankings" are highly debatable.At the same time Crist states, "In the absence of either,both EG&SS would have been dominant TC champions.Instead,each proved each other's brilliance", he also states "EG would be ranked up there w/Man OWar,Secretariat,Cy if not for his legit excuses&SS"
flylion132 4 months ago
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@flylion132 You can't project EGs 2 & 3 year old campaigns on to what he WOULD have done as a 4 or 5 yr old. No one knows & not every successfully 3 yr old does so well as an older. Based on the racing he actually did as a 4 yr old, EG likely could not cut it racing as an older horse.
sl7293 4 months ago
Having just said that "rankings" are a highly debatable topic, which I am not that concerned with because it is an endless debate for everyone. With the notable exceptions of Man O'War,Secretariat and Colin, most,if not all of the top thirty "ranked" horses,had the benefit of at least a full 4 yr old campaign and older horse campaign which some would say dropped EG a bit,&many horses ran a lot. It is what you "favor" in "rankings". Cigar,for example was nothing at 2 &3 yrs old.
flylion132 4 months ago
I am not so concerned in "rankings", as "rankings" are very,very debatable, endlessly debatable. That is just the Bloodhorse book's view, highly debatable. Serious cases can be made that Easy Goer,Damascus,Ruffian,Arts and Letters(#67), are underrated and deserve a higher ranking, while some others should be ranked lower. But once again, "rankings" can be endlessly debatable.
flylion132 4 months ago
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I'd say Whittingham also did a fair job of getting SS ready for the Derby, Preakness and a number of others in addition to that "one big race". If you are trying to make the case that SS doesn't deserve to be ranked so high, you'll get no argument from me. He didn't run often enough to warrant a #31 ranking IMO. However, if you think EG deserves to be ranked ahead of, say, Nashua, Swaps, or Round Table, I don't agree.
sl7293 4 months ago
The bottomline conclusion to this,Steve, is that all of these "experts" have opinions and feelings and comparisons, that you and I can both quote from now and forever, but they are "opinions,etc", whether I agree with some of them,and you agree with others, they are opinions. And if it was "just" in terms of head to head, then Noor,Beau Purple,Formal Gold, would be considered "better and ranked higher" than Cy,Kelso,Skip Away, along with some others.
flylion132 4 months ago
To be fair also to Crist, as he obviously feels EG was the better of the two. Crist also stated in the DRF Champions, "In the absence of either, both EG and SS would have been dominant Triple Crown winners, with only history as a benchmark. Instead each proved each other's brilliance." That is to be fair to Crist' opinion and SS, and him feeling EG was better, he still said that about both him and SS.
flylion132 4 months ago
D. Wayne Lukas during the time of the Classic, "If Easy Goer and SS were to face each other a number of more times, Easy Goer would win most of them. But Whittingham is so great at getting all of his horses to run big for the one big,classic race."
flylion132 4 months ago
Paul Moran after the BC, "Most still believe Easy Goer is the better racehorse, but Pat Day's riding EG like the exposed end of a live wire cost him by a whisker and desperate neck in two races."
flylion132 4 months ago
Bill Christine- "Aggressive riding overwhelms Day's usual patience." While Day made 3 mistakes in the Preakness. Also, "tentative riding" in the Classic, much like when Day rode Forty Niner and Seeking the Gold.
flylion132 4 months ago
Crist, "If the question on the ballot had been, which horse in the better racehorse, a lot more than 20 people would have voted against S.S." Who cares about opinions.
flylion132 4 months ago
Crist, "In 2 of his 3 losses, EG had legitimate excuses, while SS never proved he was just plain better. EG walloped him by eight lengths. And in the other, no one was left thinking it could not have gone the other way."
flylion132 4 months ago
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Noor set 3 world records at 3 different distances in one season. That is even more WRs than EG set. He also set at least 3 additional track records that year. Noor is ranked what, 69th? Apparently running fast times isn't everything.
sl7293 4 months ago
If "so and so" is this and that, then why do you quote Paulick or whomever you quote? That is hypocritical on your part for quoting Paulick,etc. If me or anybody else quotes Crist,Hovdey,Moran,Nack,Haskin it is no longer a meaningful "opinion." Do you want it both ways? So if you quote Paulick or whomever, and that is okay, then quoting the others is also okay.
flylion132 4 months ago
Steve Crist is a sports writer & he is no more able to identify the interplay between all the myriad variables that determine the outcome of horse races than anyone else. If he was so smart, he would be putting his money where his mouth is and making millions at the track instead of expressing opinions that he cannot prove and earning substantially less for it.
sl7293 4 months ago
Turn that around. Is Easy Goer the only horse or athlete that did not have legitamate excuses for some of their losses? Logically, it seems to me that Noor would be considered better that Citation winning four of five. Beau Purple beating Kelso three of four, the same. Formal Gold beating Skip Away four of six meetings, the same. EG-SS etc and others.
flylion132 4 months ago
No one ever said that the 1960 Yankees didn't deserve to lose the 1960 Yankees. In spite of their impressive stats, pretty much everyone acknowledges that they got outplayed when it counted and that is why they lost.
sl7293 4 months ago
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Is Easy Goer the only horse or athlete who had LEGITIMATE EXCUSES. Did Dr Fager and Buckpasser have legitimate excuses for some of their losses. Were their excuses more or less legitimate than Easy Goer's? Did Secretariat have any legitimate excuses? Who is the final arbiter in determining the "legitimacy of excuses". Is it Jay Hovdey, Steve Crist, flylion132?
sl7293 4 months ago
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sl7293 4 months ago
Jay Hovdey, "To define Easy Goer and his career in terms of SS is blatantly unfair. Easy Goer was remarkable, and a better horse and career. Much like the 1960 Yankees, who outscored PIT 55-27, outhit them significantly also, and fielded Mantle,Maris,Ford,Berra and Richardson, and had the only MVP ever from a losing team."
flylion132 4 months ago
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sl7293 4 months ago
Steve Crist, "Had the question on the ballot been, "Who is the better horse, Easy Goer or SS, A LOT more than 20 people would have voted against SS."
flylion132 4 months ago 2
Crist, "In 2 of his 3 losses, EG had legitimate excuses, and never just proved he was plain better, and Easy Goer walloped him by 8 lengths. And in the other, left no one thinking it could not have gone the other way."
flylion132 4 months ago
Paul Moran after the Classic, "Most still believe Easy Goer is the better horse, but Pat Day's riding Easy Goer like the exposed end of a live wire cost him by a whisker and desperate neck in two races." Bill Christine-, "Aggressiveness overwhelms Day's patience." "Tentative riding."
flylion132 4 months ago
Edwin Pope, with excerpts from Bill Nack in SI, "After a slow break, Pat Day decided to do nothing and let EG settle 11 lengths back. Day then cost EG a full head of steam down the backstretch(as Day says, " I gave EG a breather when SS went around the far turn.").Day put out the fire of a splendid colt in full flame. If Day and McCarron switched mounts, EG never loses by a desperate neck."
flylion132 4 months ago
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Clearly, BEYER also said that SS was the better horse: "No conditions seem to faze him. When he encountered an unfamiliar muddy track at the Kentucky Derby, he handled it successfully--while Easy Goer didn't. When he was stopped cold at a critical stage of the Preakness--trouble that would have spelled certain defeat for almost any other horse--he recovered immediately and rushed back into contention." EG ran fast times, but Beyer felt was better.
sl7293 4 months ago
Easy Goer ran seven or eight 120+ or faster beyers in his career(double the number of any horse since Bid, including Ghostzapper,Criminal Type,Skip Away,Cigar,Holy Bull,Alysheba,John Henry,Curlin,Zenyatta,Point Given,Formal Gold,Gentlemen,Tiznow,etc) while SS ran ONE! The great equalizer= Pat Day's admitted despicable riding costing him by an inch and desperate neck in two races. Having said that,SS was also a great horse with the greatest trainer of all time.
EASYGOERFLIES 4 months ago
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@EASYGOERFLIES Speaking of BEYER, he said: "The ability to out-kick a rival and the fortitude to outfight him--these are qualities that help define one horse's superiority over another. Moreover, Sunday Silence has scored his important victories in every corner of the country, while Easy Goer has never won an important race outside of his New York home base. "There is nothing fluky about Sunday Silence's 3-to-1 edge in his meetings with Easy Goer. By a slim margin, he is the superior athlete."
sl7293 4 months ago
@EASYGOERFLIES Speaking of BEYER< he said after Easy Goer's career was over: "From a speed and performances standpoint, Easy Goer ran FASTER and BETTER than Seattle Slew, Affirmed, and Bid at the ages of two and three years old."
flylion132 4 months ago 2
@EASYGOERFLIES Speaking of BEYER, not only did he state after Easy Goer's career was over, that Easy Goer ,from a speed-performances standpoint, that Easy Goer ran FASTER and BETTER than Slew,Affirmed &Bid at 2 and 3 yrs old." But on the anddownthestretchtheycome site, BEYER was interviewed on the day Pat Day retired, and Andrew Beyer lamented Day's riding on EG and riding in general, and the man Beyer called Pat "wait all" Day.
flylion132 4 months ago 2
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Criminal Type beat them both in '90 and showed who was best.
DanielSong39 4 months ago
But the point I was making is that, perhaps the opinions, whether in review or not, of Nack,Crist,Paulick,Pope,Moran,Lukas,Whittingham,etc were correct. Perhaps. I may agree with some points they made, but not all.
flylion132 4 months ago
I never said you did. I just said I changed the subject to all of Easy Goer's performances speaking for themselves vs. PO's performances. Instead of opinions on bad rides, campaigns, etc. I admitted I changed the subject, but that seems to be the way things are going anyways.
flylion132 4 months ago
That's fine, he still lost 11 times. I don't think EG's owners made excuses. In my opinion, EG is underrated
flylion132 4 months ago
I never said Prove Out was one of the greatest horses of all time.
sl7293 4 months ago
That may be a separate topic I just wrote, I mean my last comment was in regards to all of Easy Goer's performances, which is a separate issue and topic than opinions of bad rides or campaigns. I know I changed the subject a bit there.
flylion132 4 months ago
Damascus also won 21 times including victories over some of the greatest horses of all time. He ran all the time whether well prepared not. His owners never made excuses. They simply let him run and let the chips fall where they may. In my opinion, he is underrated.
sl7293 4 months ago
Performances? Easy Goer's record 3 yr old mile of all time in 1:32:2, smashing Secretariat's mark and a fifth off the world record of Fager. His second fastest Belmont of all time with only Secretariat faster.His top 3 all time fastest Travers,top 5 all time fastest Whitney and Champagne,his top 3-5 all time fastest Suburban,his fastest 7f in Florida,his 6.5f on track record,his campaign which was historic, and performances didn't speak for themselves? PO had what? 3 great performances?
flylion132 4 months ago
Prove Out's actions pretty much speak for themselves. Haskins never ventured an opinion that Secretariat would have won if he would have been better prepared. Neither did he suggest that Riva Ridge was robbed in the JCSC. He pretty much let Prove Out's performances speak for themselves.
sl7293 4 months ago
Perhaps Crist,Pope,Moran,Nack,Haskin,etc were are all correct in their opinions, whether it was before or in review. Perhaps. Don't forget Paulick, perhaps him as well. But we've already previously established that all these "experts" are biased to a certain degree. Both sides. Whether I agree with one side of these, that is strictly my opinion and agreeing with a certain number of what these "biased experts" stated. Some, not all, some.
flylion132 4 months ago
Perhaps Haskin was correct about Easy Goer. Perhaps Haskin was correct about Prove Out also. Perhaps
flylion132 4 months ago
If Haskin, Nack, Crist, Pope etc. really knew what they were talking about, they would have known in advance that Pat Day would blow the race, or the EG would lose because he had collic or that he couldn't win because of the JCGC. They could make millions putting their money where their mouth is by betting at the race track rather than sharing their "opinions" with you and me. Truly they don't know. There are too many variables.
sl7293 4 months ago
Not only are "perhaps Haskin,Nack,Crist,Pope,etc opinions were correct", but Damascus lost 11 times.
flylion132 4 months ago
"Perhaps Haskin's opinions were correct." Perhaps Nack,Crist,Hirsch,Pope,Moran, etc. opinions were correct. Perhaps right?
flylion132 4 months ago
Wait so, you care what Paulick's opinion was, but don't care what Crist,Pope,Moran,Nack,Haskin were? Perhaps Haskin,Nack,Crist, etc were correct. Perhaps their opinions were correct.
flylion132 4 months ago
Who cares what Paulick's opinion is? You seem to care.
flylion132 4 months ago
You confused? You? Your the one who said Slew won the JCGC and Alydar won the Dwyer? Your must be confused
flylion132 4 months ago
I am getting a little confused now. Did EG lose because Pat Day was riding or because he had colic or because he run the JCGC or because he ran 5 in 9 weeks? As an aside, Damascus ran what I believe were the same 5 - in 7 weeks, but then again he did that all the time.
sl7293 4 months ago
That's Edwin Pope's opinion and there is no way he can prove it. There are so many variables that go into determining the outcome of a horse race.
sl7293 4 months ago
LOL! Meeeeeee? Me let it go? Who has been on here 24/7 for 3 months? Is it because the other EG fans are on 24/7/365 so you have to be? You let it go lol!
flylion132 4 months ago
You apparently do care. Why can't you let it go? You can play the same game with the losses of so many other race horses besides just Easy Goer.
sl7293 4 months ago
Edwin Pope quote, along with some excerpts from other interviews, including Nack in SI.- "After falling over 11 lengths back after a slow start, Pat Day chose do nothing and let EG settle, but then Day cost EG a full head of steam down the backstretch(Day said "I gave him a breather when SS went around the far turn"). Day put out the fire a splendid colt in full flame. If Day and McCarron switched mounts, EG wins and does not lose by a desperate neck." Who cares really?
flylion132 4 months ago
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This isn't Science. There is no magic formula for determining what woulda, choulda, or shoulda happened. You can make very convincing arguments that Buckpasser and Dr Fager lost races due to jockey and/or trainer error, You can say Dr Fager shoulda been 20 out of 22 lifetime, but who cares?
sl7293 4 months ago
Pat Day- "Absolutely rider error and I got the best horse beat an inch" in the Preakness. And "I didn't ride my best race in the Classic. When SS went around the far turn, I gave EG a breather again." Who cares?
flylion132 4 months ago
Crist- " In 2 of his 3 defeats to SS, EG had legitimate excuses, and also left no one thinking it could not have gone the other way. EG walloped him by eight lengths in the other,and SS won by an inch and neck, but never in a way that he was just plain better." Who cares?
flylion132 4 months ago
I agree. I don't think the opinion of Paul Moran or Andy Beyer counts for much. Everybody has their favorites. Talk is cheap.
sl7293 4 months ago
My book also states that Shug ran EG in the race meaning he believed he was ready. After the race, he changed his mind. Of course this had nothing to do with the fact that EG lost. Shug simply came to the conclusion that EG was not ready AFTER the race and he would have reached the same conclusion had EG won or lost. We both agree on that right?
sl7293 4 months ago
Paul Moran, "Many still believe EG is the better horse. The better horse was defeated by an inch and desperate neck due to Pat Day riding EG like the exposed end of a live wire." Who cares?
flylion132 4 months ago
Your book cites he came out of the race just twelve days earlier lame, which forced him to work him in bar shoes for the lameness, and Shug then told your lovely Ray Paulick, or his sources, that he rushed him with the bar shoes and lameness to make the Met 12 days later. Read more of your book, looks like Whittingham liked to make excuses calling SS loss in the G2 Swaps due to Valenzuela's terrible riding. What's better= making excuses for bad riding or citing he rushed the horse thru lameness?
flylion132 4 months ago
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Said Andy Beyer of SS vs EG: "The ability to out-kick a rival and the fortitude to outfight him--these are qualities that help define one horse's superiority over another. Moreover, Sunday Silence has scored his important victories in every corner of the country, while Easy Goer has never won an important race outside of his New York home base. "There is nothing fluky about Sunday Silence's 3-to-1 edge in his meetings with Easy Goer. By a slim margin, he is the superior athlete." --Who cares?
sl7293 4 months ago
So it was Easy Goer and Secretariat's and Sunday Silence's and Count Fleet and Man OWar and Majestic Prince and Arts and Letter's lack of a four year old or older horse campaign, whether due to injury forced retirement or straight retirement that makes them better or not.
flylion132 4 months ago
Haskins can believe whatever he wants? How about Nack and Lukas and Whittingham?
flylion132 4 months ago
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Before the Met mile, Shug entered him in the race apparently believing he was ready. AFTER EG lost the race, Shug said EG was not ready and he should not have entered him. If EG had won the race would Shug have cited that as proof that EG was not ready? Being a man of firm convictions perhaps he would have. Shug is also quoted in the LA Times saying about EG: He just got outrun," McGaughey said, "flat outrun. Criminal Type won that race." Quoting experts like Shug is informative.
sl7293 4 months ago
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I am unclear what your point was about Turkoman. As I understand it, he came in 2nd in the JCGC and 2nd in the BC. Even though he ran the 1 1/2 mile JCGC and managed to place 2nd, this did not prevent him from also placing 2nd in the BC. How can you conclude from this that his performance in the BC was impaired by his perfomance in the JCGC?
sl7293 4 months ago
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I never said you lied. I simply quoted what you said verbatim and said that is not what Paulick said. You wouldn't like about this because we can both look it up.
sl7293 4 months ago
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Most of the horses you mention had signficant achievments after age 3. One of the big exceptions is Secretariat. Even though you completely disagree, most people believe that Secretariat's victories and achievements at age 3 were more impressive than those of Easy Goer at the same age.
sl7293 4 months ago
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Haskins can believe whatever he wants about the JCGC & BC. The numbers certainly do not back him up.
sl7293 4 months ago