The Effect of a 'Just War' - Shane Claiborne

[NextStarfish]

Love this - used this video in a blog post on Nextstarfish

[NixonisLord]

What a freak!

[TheBatteredTruth]

Psalm 83, 3-4 says, and i quote They devise crafty schemes against your people; they conspire against your precious ones. '"Come," they say, "let us wipe out Israel as a nation. We will destroy the very memory of it's existence."

I hate to break it to you buddy, but that is not a biblical defense for Justwar. This Psalm is talking as the enemies of Israel, ie, the world, and how they planned to use violence to DESTROY God's work. But i can give you dozens that oppose justwar. Like Matthew 5:9

[swarmis]

@TheBatteredTruth My mistake, the verse I meant was Psalm 82,3-4. Please provide a pacifist commentary for Psalm 144. Also Matt 18:6 provides some strong words for a pacifist.  Matt 5:9 doesn't oppose self defense, in my opinion it validates it. If someone were to break into your house and attempt to murder your children, would it be wrong to defend them even if it meant inflicting harm on the attacker? In this example, inflicting harm on the attacker is restoring peace.

[ManassehZerubbabel]

Why are you all looking for righteous conduct from a worldly organization?

The U.S. military, and the U.S. government, are of this world.

Respect them, but don't be a part of them, and don't place your confidence in them.

Jesus Christ is Lord.

[swarmis]

Jesus is the Yahweh of the O.T, and he is the same yesterday, today, and forever. We must glaze over more than half of the Bible to conclude that Jesus was a pacifist(someone who denounces all forms of violence for any reason). Psalm 83;3-4 "Defend the poor and fatherless. Do justice to the afflicted and the needy, deliver the poor and needy, rid them out of the hand of the wicked." Psalm 144"Blessed be the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war,and my fingers for battle." Motive is key...

[diantonovich]

Baptizing bombs LOL good one

[jmvfortruth]

Bonheoffer is my hero! You all should read the war prayer by Mark Twain though.

Why does everyone want to keep talking about Hitler?

[flashgm41]

@jmvfortruth

Thanks for War Prayer reference. Powerful.

[flashgm41]

@jmvfortruth

If you haven't already, Youtube that same war prayer where the angel/man walks into the church and addresses the prayer of the pastor.

[jaxonweb]

Just recently discovered Shane. Wow! What a moral genius. The MLK of our day.

[tmgrevolution]

The Cross Lost?

[dalhar20]

@jescarpita yet the only reason we even entered WW2 was because of Pearl Harbor, and that ended with two atomic bombs being droped on innocent people

[jescarpita]

ooooook soo why did GOD have his people fight wars and kill in the old testement

[Skate4it24]

@jescarpita Sin. Sin without a savior who had yet to come. A payment must be made for all sin; this sin is death. God issued that payment in the OT severely (on Israel as well). But when Jesus came, things changed. No longer do we need a payment, for he is our payment, and not only our payment, but the payment for the whole world (1 John). You see, war is unnecessary because of Jesus. It is useless and pointless because of Jesus. Why pay for a crime that has already been paid for? This is Grace.

[jescarpita]

@Skate4it24 i agree 100% but what about defending the weak and defenseless like we r instructed to? like the jews in WW2? should we have ignored there cry for help against the evil destructive nazi?

[Skate4it24]

@jescarpita I would like a Scripture reference that says we are commanded to defend the weak and defenseless with violence before you say we are instructed to. I'm not trying to be mean, but I hear this all the time and I have yet to be shown a passage of Scripture mandating Christians to fight for other people who cannot defend themselves with violence. In fact, Peter himself tried to defend Jesus (which seemed to be right since Jesus was defenseless and innocent) yet he rebuked Peter.

[flashgm41]

@Skate4it24

The reason you have not been shown a scripture to support what some are saying is there is no scripture to support killing to defend other who cannot defend themselves. That idea comes from the ways of men, not Jesus.

[flashgm41]

@Skate4it24

There is no scripture or example in the NT of Christians killing. Our Western mentality/culture conjures up what we want to believe and justify. We have been brainwashed to promote violence. Try telling a Ghanian Christian that he should kill to protect the innocent. He/she will think you are crazy.

[flashgm41]

@Skate4it24

You are correct. There is no scripture.

[swarmis]

@Skate4it24 Psalm 83;3-4

[DS6FILMS]

@Skate4it24 Brother, I'm very glad you asked that. Matthew 25:34-46 is one of the best described verses in scripture that should be practiced amongst people. Psalm 82:3... Proverbs 31:9... there are many more. I just have to remember where some of them are.

[DragonTalkShow]

@DS6FILMS still doesn't promote violence to defend any of those people. Those verses completely agree with Shane Claiborne's larger main message of loving the poor and oppressed and standing for their rights, NOT killing other people for them.

[pence123]

"Thou Shalt Not Kill"

"Love your enemies"

"Resist not evil with force"

Christ forgave the people who were actively crucifying Him.

anyone care to comment on justifying war in this context?

[silversoul7]

@pence123 "Christ forgave the people who were actively crucifying Him.

anyone care to comment on justifying war in this context? "

If war is fought ought of retaliation, then no. However, I do believe that military action can serve humanitarian ends. Sending peacekeeping troops to an area like Darfur seems fairly justified to me.

[pence123]

I understand that, and trust me there is a part of me that would want to kill the people committing such atrocities, but I cannot help but think that following Christ means not killing God's children, which we all are.. I am not saying this "makes sense" or 'works" in a conventional model, it wouldn't now, and it didn't then, but perhaps that is a price of discipleship

[OfWrathAndGrace]

"Thou Shalt Not Kill"

The Hebrew word for 'kill' here is 'murder', to kill in cold-blood. This does not cover all types of killing.

"Love your enemies"

We are never to harm anyone in anger or vengence. Scripture never forbids self-defense or military service.

"Resist not evil with force"

This Scripture is talking about how to respond to insult, not threat of violence. In Hebrew culture to be slapped on the right cheek was a great insult. Reason being, if you..

[OfWrathAndGrace]

...were being struck on your right cheek you are being struck with the left hand. It was a great insult because that was the hand they cleaned with after using the bathroom.

Oh, and remember. The same God that commanded the Israilites not to kill (murder) also sent them on military campaigns to reclaim the Holy Land around the same time.

[pence123]

wow, this just isn't very logical.. how do you love someone and then kill them? did jesus not beg us to put away our swords, for he who lives by the sword dies by the sword? how can you possibly justify picking up the sword (military force) from a christian context when christ and disciples allowed those who were persecuting them to kill them? and prove to me that KILL actually meant murder..

[pence123]

Although the best single-word translation of the Hebrew word ratsach in the Sixth Commandment is murder, ratsach does have a wider application that must be considered. The well-known Hebrew scholars C.F. Keil and Franz Delitzsch write:

[pence123]

but because it is the basis of human existence, and in the life the personality is attacked, and in that the image of God (Gen. 9:6). The omission of the object [of the verb ratsach] still remains to be noticed, as showing that the prohibition includes not only the killing of a fellow-man, but the destruction of ones own life, or suicide.

[OfWrathAndGrace]

"how do you love someone and then kill them?"

I am carged by God with the care and protection of my family. If my wife and daughter are home and someone tries to break into my house they have one change the stop there advance. If they continue, I will assume they are there to do my family harm and I will respond accordingly. I don't hate this person. I don't even know them, but I will protect my family with whatever means necessary. I believe I have the biblical right to do so.

[OfWrathAndGrace]

That was supposed to be "I am cHarged..."

[Rezac778]

Yes but that doesn't mean you have to kill them. You can stop someone without killing them.

[pence123]

Accordingly, in the command, Thou shalt not kill, not only is the accomplished fact of murder condemned, whether it proceed from open violence or stratagem (Chap. 21:12,14,18), but every act that endangers human life, whether it arise from carelessness (Deut. 22:8), or wantonness (Lev. 19:14), or from hatred, anger and revenge (Lev. 19:17,18). Life is placed at the head of these commandments, not as being the highest earthly possession,

[OfWrathAndGrace]

What you listed are the forbidden forms of killing. But don't forget, the bible permits, even commanded the killing of some. God ordained capital punishment, Deut. 17 5-7, Lev. 20 1-5, Exodus 32: 26-28, to name a few. OF coarse, we are not under a theocracy so we don't have to put people to deat for said offences, but it does show that God isn't anti-death penalty. And before some says, "but we're under Grace now", that doesn't nullify government punishing criminals and keeping order.

[OfWrathAndGrace]

...God also sent the Israelites on many military campaigns. And in the New Testament, when Christ or the Apostles preached or otherwise came in contact with a Roman soldier, they were never told to abandon their military service. In fact, one was told to return to his post, knowing there was a chance that he would one day have to kill someone.

Yes, Christ told Peter to put down his sword, because Peter was outnumbered and sure to face death and more importantly, it was Christ's destiny...

[OfWrathAndGrace]

...to die on our sins. But in Luke 22:36-38 Christ tells them to buy swords because He won't be with them much longer and they may need to defend themselves. So, we see here that self defence isn't forbidden.

And, yes. The swords WERE to be purchased for self defence. There is no other logical rendering of the meaning of this passage.

[mrgienger]

Jesus' final words make it clear that circumstances are changing. Opposition to the disciples is rising. Where before Jesus had sent them out empty-handed yet they were provided for (9:1-6; 10:3-4), now they will have to take provisions and protection for their travel. They will have to procure a sword. Scripture such as Isaiah 53:12 is finding its fulfillment in Jesus. Jesus is rejected; he is numbered with the transgressors.

[mrgienger]

The disciples take Jesus' remarks literally and incorrectly. They note that they have two swords, but Jesus cuts off the discussion. Something is not right, but it is too late to discuss it. As the arrest will show, they have misunderstood. They draw swords then, but Jesus stops their defense in its tracks.

[mrgienger]

He is not telling them to buy swords to wield in physical battle. They will have to provide for themselves and fend for themselves, but not through the shedding of blood. They are being drawn into a great cosmic struggle, and they must fight with spiritual swords and resources. The purchase of swords serves only to picture this coming battle. This fight requires special weapons (Eph 6:10-18).

[OfWrathAndGrace]

When they produced their two LITERAL swords He told them that they would be enough. Their is nothing to suggest that Christ had no time to correct them if their assumption that physical protection was included in Christ's statement was wrong. I find nowhere in Scripture that Christians must give up their right to self-defense.

[mrgienger]

I think Jesus is the ultimate example of the giving up of our notions of self defense. Martin Luther King sums up the idea pretty well when he says, "To our most bitter opponents we say: 'Throw us in jail and we will still love you. Bomb our houses and threaten our children and we will still love you. Beat us and leave us half dead, and we will still love you. But be ye assured that we will wear you down by our capacity to suffer...

[mrgienger]

... One day we shall so appeal to your heart and conscience that we shall win you in the process, and our victory will be a double victory." Jesus could have called down legions of angels to defend himself, and yet the slaughtered lamb did not. He chose to suffer rather than harm his oppressors - a double victory as King describes it. As Christians seeking to live as Christ did, our call is the same.

[Pfsif]

The church is so small we have no affect on the world and that's the way it should be. What good does moralizing the unregenerate do anyone....a better world....for who and for what???

[kerr628]

The Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed...

[lilsuwatch]

yo. i love shane.

[brianbiola11]

Peace by superior firepower

[doulos2213]

There was a comic strip I saw once. Two characters were playing "War". One said, "How come we play war and not peace" the other one replied "Too few role models"

For most of my life I have been a proponent of "Just War" so I don't question the honor of those who still hold to that idea. It took me a long time to rethink that.

But I believe that when Jesus said "love your enemies" He wasn't being metaphorical. Do we have the courage to really LIVE what He said. Or are we just pretending?

[pence123]

that is what i'm just starting to discover..

[EdFreshwater]

Can you love your enemies while dropping bombs on them?

Grace and peace

[flashgm41]

@EdFreshwater

NO!

[flashgm41]

@EdFreshwater

No, absolutely not!

[IusInPace]

By no established moral criteria within the Just War tradition could we refer to the recent Iraq war as a 'just' war.

[rab2591]

thanks for posting!

[rab2591]

The only way to bring peace to this world is by confronting evil with love. Shane Claiborne has used the teachings of Jesus to help promote peace. He works for God, not America. You cannot serve two masters in Christianity. Confronting evil with evil has never brought about a lasting peace. Jesus confronted evil with love and He changed the world...and people like Claiborne are following His (Jesus') footsteps and are continuing to promote His message of peace through love.

[warriorpoet375]

Peace is not the ultimate goal. Jesus came and said that he did not bring peace, but the sword, that he would divide families against each other. He taught that what must be pursued is truth ("I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life"). Peace comes when the truth of the gospel is preached, when justice has been served. Who said anything about confronting evil with evil? Bombing Iraq was the confrontation of evil with what is right.

[Kayote80uk]

Nicely put. Thanks for sharing.

[TheDentry]

/watch?v=g6m7UKQ3mjY