Conservatives rule. Are you kidding. Even when a Republican president was in, he was a moderate to liberal. When the one time we had a centrist to right Pres with Reagan, the congress was totally controlled for 30 years by the Dem's. So please do not tell me conservatives ruled anything. If we did we would not be in the fiscal mess we are in today with an incompetent pres and totally corrupt congress.
That opening video of the people dancing was the corniest things I've seen this weekend. And I've seen a LOT of Republicans on TV saying a lot of corny stuff on health care!
@woolgathered: the corniest thing a liberal like you sees is what you see when you look in the mirror every morning (or don't look at much...I can't blame you there). I can't wait for the November elections, so I can hear you libs squeal as pigs. LOL
@tristramshandy3: typical elitist liberal...you always underestimate the fury and will of the People. I've never felt such anger at liberal shenanigans as I do now. And at least half the population feels the way I do. I feel the winds changing against this socialistic crap. I believe you will see soon, starting in November.
@tristramshandy3: they've probably been tainted by the Democrats (majority) now, who have been running things into the ground....the approval ratings starting tanking when Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid started their socialistic undertaking...how do you explain that? lol
@tristramshandy3 You are getting your data from Huffington Post. Both Rasmussen (+9) and Gallup (+5) show Repubs beating Democrats. Besides being able to find a poll that says anything that you want - are you suggesting that we run sheeplike to the voting booth and make our selection based on mindless group think?
@SWGutto I'm suggesting what I have been suggesting for many years- anyone who is STILL voting for democrats or republicans is a fucking idiot. Period.
I mean, seriously, how fucking stupid ARE you people?
You're sick of dems so you want repubs.
In two years, you'll be sick of repubs and want dems.
@tristramshandy3 Democrats are so popular, that they gave Teddy Kennedy's lifetime Senate seat to an unknown Republican, and Harry Reid's son won't campaign using his last name.
@SWGutto do you think republican or democrats matter? Do you really think there is a substantial difference?
Sigh.
You seem caught in a trap- the two party trap where there AREN'T two actual parties, but two different competing interests that are both controlled by the banks.
WAKE UP bitch!
Stop hurting yourself and the country with the partisan bullshit.
@tristramshandy3 Wow. When you said, "Wake up, bitch" it was so enlightening and empowering, that I changed my whole life. Thanks for the brilliant commentary and advice. Such masterful debate. Incredible wit. You eviscerate your targets. So you are a unmarried English teacher poet. Too bad you haven't learned how to be a proper contrarian. By the way, read the posts. I never said to vote Republican or even suggested that I support Republicans. We all don't fit into your little boxes.
@tristramshandy3 I hope that someday you learn the bliss that comes from strong physical labor, or from realizing genuine humanity instead of being wicked and spiteful.
At the end of each of your statements, you write some nonsense like "I win!"
But it is not you who gets to decide. In fact, if u drive the other party further away, what did u accomplish? In all of your literary adventures, in all of the essays that u supposedly devoured & now personify, how does this simple fact escape u?
@tristramshandy3 Read Montaigne? Sure. After my 60 hour day, I would love to spend my free time reading obscure English lit so that English Teachers would finally consider me "intellectual." I am the ultimate artist scientist - I am an engineer. We study the sciences & liberal arts, & then create useful products for humanity. I'll read Montaigne. You read some Faraday or Franklin (yes, ole Ben) or Otto. Don't lecture me about easy, English professor, until u have passed Quantum Physics.
@SWGutto Montaigne is neither obscure nor English. He was a Frenchman- he was probably the wisest man to ever live, and if you choose not to read him out of some anti-intellectual spite, you harm yourself, not me.
It's a shame you work so much.
You sell yourself short when not providing adequate time for leisure- both physical, as well as intellectual.
I think it's great you can understand quantum physics- but it's a shame you would struggle to get Montaigne.
@tristramshandy3 Are u well-rounded, yourself? Do u engage in physical activity? Have u studied any applied sciences? Do u engage in intellectual curiousity? Or do u read old French essays & then somehow claim the work as your own, imagining everyone else as inferior & droll to your enlightened standards? I have read Homer in the original Greek, but prefer Twain & Franklin & even Louis L'amour (for escape). I will try Montaigne, of course, but then you will have no intellectual leverage.
@SWGutto I'm well rounded- perhaps not as much as I could be. I have no interest or passion for math or science. My intellectual passions are for sociology, history, philosophy, literature (the best!).
Beyond reading over 1,000 books, I have lived in 6 countries and traveled the world extensively.
I have also been everywhere in the USA.
Franklin is a utilitarian fool.
If you MUST read Americans, thoreau and emerson are FAR more edifying.
@tristramshandy3: then I'd have to do your homework for you again...just like the success of the tax cuts in Ireland thing. Why do you think media outlets such as FOX News and conservative talk radio became SO POPULAR...e.g.: FOX News has wiped the floor with all the other mainstream and liberal media outlets (hasn't even been close)...Americans were hungry for more balanced and more conservative viewpoints, since they had been TOTALLY lacking for so many years.
You never proved tax cuts were the primary reason Ireland underwent tremendous economic success. I thought we established that.
Secondly, fox entertainment channel is only tops in CABLE entertainment channels. Fox has FAR fewer viewers than the major, nightly news broadcasts on ABC, CBS and NBC.
Again, you offer ZERO evidence to prove the point about a "liberal media". You just said that a lot of people watch fox. So what? That proves NOTHING
@tristramshandy3 80% of College Professors surveyed, self-indicated that they were Liberal. A recent poll at New York Times indicated that 23 out of 24 reporters were Liberal. Anyway the polls are few years old now, but here is a simple test for you. You are self-described Liberal. When you watch CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS or read the New York Times, LA Times, Washington Post - do you agree with the coverage/articles more often than not? Then they are slanted in a Liberal direction.
@SWGutto The coverage, on issues of real import, leans very far to the right. I defy you to find an anti-war mainstream media outlet during october 2002 and march 2003.
I defy you to find a mainstream media outlet that advocated on behalf of single payer health care.
You can't.
So, what exactly are you basing this liberal media theory on?
Do you think reporters determine what gets on the air?
What are the political leanings of OWNERS and EDITORS?
tristramshandy3: if you can't recognize that humans are self-interested individuals (you're even seeking "happiness"...lol)....then, your brain is much too soft from liberalism for you to debate anyone or anything on these boards...LOL
Capitalism with reasonable checks and balances will always win over these socialists/communists dreamworlds....what a bunch of losers....never seems to work...gee, I wonder why? LOL LOL LOL
If people are voting against their interests, then you have to first prove that liberal policy is in their economic interests. If you do not prove that premise, then your argument is weak.
Try this: Liberal policy is trash because ignorant urban blacks vote Democrat. Is that a fair or logical comment? No.
Rednecks support Republicans, therefore conservative policy is bad. Are you serious? Frank produces self-serving and cowardly nonsense for the thoughtless followers of a failing ideology.
Capitalism with reasonable, commonsense restrictions will always be superior in lifting all boats to higher levels...full-blown socialism has never lifted the masses out of poverty over the long-haul...look at Europe now...they're on the decline thanks to their socialist bent
@mwells219: how does a civil society ever "decide" upon its rules??...this one is a representative democracy...not perfect, but the best game going on the globe right now
Except that its very quickly degenerating into a socialist command economy nightmare. We really have no rule of law anymore & certainly no functioning constiution. We have mob rule.
@kotash2: there is a functioning constitution, if we hold the Powers that Be to it...but we have judicial activism more than ever, in which these (mostly liberal) judges are thwarting the will of the people at every chance...issues that have been or should be decided in the legislative arena...whether it be gay marriage or right to bear arms...
The contstit. is effecttively dead& shredded. Have you read Thomas Woods JR book who killed the contstitution. All 3 branches of gov are at fault. The supreme court has given ligitimacy to every manner of illegal action from foreign wars to health care. The fed gov has no ethical or legal right to provide insurance or healthcare. Sometimes the will of people will actually be at odds with the consti. &the presidents job is to defend the constitution against the masses, against the majority
if it's the best game going- how do you explain our results? we have a large and growing disparity between rich and poor (always a bad sociological indicator), highest violent crime rate in the industrialized world, highest prison population on the planet, and far and away the highest rates of drug abuse- both legal and illegal.
Oh yeah, the worst health of the developed world; highest obesity rate on the planet.
If our society is the best- as you claim- we would have better results.
@tristramshandy3: if these socialists would allow capitalism to work, it will always deliver the best results....where is the socialist utopia on earth?? Man is a self-interested creature, this is as obvious as the air we breath...so, we must tailor a system that "uses" that self-interest to provide the goods/services we need/want....
@tristramshandy3: you also conveniently left out the fact that we have the most patents of any nation on earth, the most wealth measured in GDP, we were responsible for defeating Hitler and Japan in WWII (take us out of that picture, and it's certain that Hitler and Japan would have rolled on)... massive # of new pharmaceuticals, etc.
much pharmaceutical research is actually funded by taxpayers- more of that socialism you loathe so much.
The RUSSIANS were MOST responsible for the defeat of Hitler- read a history book.
We do have the highest GDP, byut what does that have to do with you? The top 1% control MOST of our wealth- and the notion that we are "all in it together" is to get poor idiots like you blindly supporting the very rich people that fleece you.
How are you enjoying paying interest to the banks?
YOU: "full-blown socialism has never lifted the masses out of poverty over the long-haul"
MY ANSWER:
"every socialist experiment of any significance in the 20th century - without
exception - has either been crushed, overthrown, or invaded, or corrupted,
perverted, subverted, or destabilized, by the U.S. Not one socialist government or movement ... was permitted to rise or fall on its own merits; not one was left secure enough to freely and fully relax control at home." - William Blum
@bapyou: what a laugh...the USA has been around for less than 250 years...yet socialism has NEVER lifted the masses out of poverty over the long-haul...get an education first, then try to debate....and it never will....it's only for losers...people by nature are self-interested creatures...until you tap into that human aspect, you will get NOWHERE EVER....
"socialism has NEVER lifted the masses out of poverty over the long-haul, get an education first, then try to debate"
You obviously are the one lacking an education. Do you know absolutely nothing about US efforts to sabotage the economies of even moderately socialist countries in Latin America? Examples are numerous: Cuba, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Chile, on & on.
We all know how much you worship Milton Friedman. We also know the horrors Friedmanite policies create in their wake.
@bapyou: no, you have no commonsense, as well as no good education. Blaming the failings of socialism upon the USA, which has only been in existence since the late 1700s....lol. Socialism has never successfully prevailed anywhere, at any time in history. It is diametrically opposed to human nature. Humans are self-interested creatures by nature, so a successful system will "harness" (checks and balances) that self-interest for the good of all. Get real.
"you have no commonsense, as well as no good education"
That's predictable coming from someone with a power-mad username like your's.
"Blaming the failings of socialism upon the USA, which has only been in existence since the late 1700s."
That was not my original comment. (Aapparently conservonuts such as yourself have a problem with reading comprehension.) My original comment: during the 20th century,the US has killed millions in its battle against communism and socialism.
@bapyou: you really are uneducated...and with a name such as your's, you have nerve talking about another's...LOL.....typical hypocritical lib...you are ignorant...you blame the USA for failed socialism....why didn't it originate many thousands of years ago and flourish since, if it's so superior?? LOL...you really are a dummy...typical...
On the contrary: I have masters degree and a library numbering well over 3000 volumes.
"you blame the USA for failed socialism"
I blame the U.S. for intervening in nations meaning no harm to the US, nations which merely wished to order their countries along lines of their choosing. The U.S. has overthrown democracies around the world (iran 1953; Guatemala 1954; Chile 1973), calling such overthrows "fighting communism" ot "bringing freedom to the ignorant."
"why didn't (socialism) originate many thousands of years ago and flourish since"?
That's like asking "Why didn't we have quantum mechanics 1000s of years ago?" Capitalism, as we know it today did not exist 350 years ago; there were fuedal societies in Europe. You've heard of history haven't you? Everything has a history, including political & economic philosophy.
Furthermore, there have been functioning socialist societies (Paris 1860s, 1930s Spain). They met with brutal repression.
@bapyou: you won't admit the obvious truth: socialism doesn't work, has never worked well, and will never work well.....lol.....it's as obvious as the air you breath....people are self-interested creatures.....socialism is for losers....the more I speak with you, the more you sound like one of those losers!! LOL
Re-read my previous posts. You obviously have a reading comprehension defecit. You've been put in your place by the true history I have outlined in them, about which most conservtives are clueless.
"you obviously have a mental disorder...it's called liberalism"
And you, obviously, are a dunderhead.
As I wrote two comment back: Liberalism & socialism are NOT the same thing? Quit watching Fox! They make you stupid!
Let me ask you, Mr. Dunderhead: If someone starts running, & you trip them, & then mock the person you've tripped saying "You can't run!", is it the person's fault that they haven't been able to run?
You write comments that show your complete ignorance of US history.
even though you are rude and angry- two dominant traits I see on the right today- I appreciate you coming to democracynow to get a different point of view.
I try to do the same thing.
I just watched some Glenn Beck videos- that guy should get an oscar.
Therefore, socialism built the pyramids, the great wall of china, machu picchu, the taj mahal, the parthenon- all built with taxpayer money- all govt projects.
You talk about history and go back thousands of years- but it is capitalism that is the radical departure from history- people lived in socialist and communist societies throughout the hunter/gatherer and agricultural ages.
@tristramshandy3: the state doesn't create any wealth....it only "takes" private wealth in the form of taxes and fees....private individuals and businesses (unharnessed/allowed to flourish) with the profit incentive will produce the wealth...these "rich" people you like to bash must not be punished...they are the ones who can create jobs....
@tristramshandy3: and, yep, capitalism is the radical departure that created the greatest nation in the world....the USA....never has a nation been as wealthy and powerful in the history of the world...we are not doing well ever since we allowed socialism/liberalism to creep in and start to decay things....liberalism is a mental disorder
hey tom frank ....now do a book 'WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH ILLINOIS, " OR HOW OBAMA BETRAYED THE COMMON FOLKS FOR WALL STREET AND CORPORATE GLOBAL AMERICA......
mwells219,, you are a raving inchorrent braindead imbecile, OUR REPS AND DEMS ARE ALL OWNED BY WALL STREET AND CORPORATE AMERICA, YOU STUPID FOOL, SHUT THE FUCK UP.
@ERROLCUSTERFLYNN4EVR ..........HOW'S THAT HOPE AND CHANGE WORKIN' OUT FOR ALL YOU WITH GAS, ENERGY AND FOOD PRICES THRU THE ROOF,,,,,,,,but you can get a real deal on an I Phone and made in china computer gadgets,,,,,i hope you can play the stock market and all the other wall street casino games to keep the DREAM ALIVE..........?
But remember many americans work for corporate america, many of us have stock retirement portfolios that are dependant on the success of corp Amer. I would suggest that the problem isnt corporations per se but the special favors & subsidies they get from gov. Big corps. buy influence. But so do unions, so do other special interest groups. This is unfair. The gov should not be a special favor machine. The solution is to shrink the power & influence of the gov. Frank doesnt get this.
the problem is the idea of a "free market" controlled by a magical "invisible hand" that automatically balances the forces of supply and demand and is inherently democratic.
Its not a problem at all. To the extent that people around the world have access to food, clothing, shelter and basic freedom where they are able to pursue their goals & aspirations; we have a free market guided by supply & demand. The market is driven by desire for profit & fear of loss. A market is voluntary; fraud, theft, violence are crimes & should be punished. As an american...all the material wealth that allows for such a good quality of life is produced by the free market
But what guarantee is there that a market acts in an inherently democratic manner and how do you explain market failure when supply is monopolised by a few people. And if the market allows for such a good quality of life why has the wealth distribution become so unequal with the top 5 percent of people in this country gettin an increasin percentage of the wealth.
The reason why wealth is so unequal is specifically b/c of taxes, regulations &unions that seince the 1930s have limited competion & created barriers to entry to smaller upstart companies that could have produced newly wealth entrepreneurs. Large established industries have USED gov to secure their wealth & control. The banking industry is a giant gov controlled cartel ( the fed reserve) The solution is to LIMIT the size & power of gov&get gov OUT of the economy ( lassez faire)
You denigrate Rockeller b/c U have swallowed the poisen pill of public school gov propaganda nonsense agaisnt the "robber barons" Sure there were industrialists that used the coercive power of the state to get special favors but thats b/c the corrupt GOV & politicians didnt stand up for LAissez faire principles. Gov.& business teamed up in this toxic mess that is really fascist & sold it to the people as "progressive" progress. You seem to have bought into this. TO your detriment
see you're going off the assumption that markets are fairly competitive. read about people like john d. rockefeller who created oil monopolies and regularly screwed his competitors out of the market with monopolistic exploitations of the market. there is no democratic equalizing force in an economic market. That's why a middle class didn't really exist until after wwII in america when taxes were increased on companies during eisenhower's presidency.
Again you really are mistaken. At its height Rockefeller only controlled a little more than 80-85 percent of the market. He got this control b/c he was better & smarter than everyone else, not b/c he "screwed" people or got gov help. He invented & marketed a whole host new products that made people better off. He produced things people wanted& needed & voluntarily bought at low prices. The POOR BENEFITTED THE MOST. He deserved every penny
Again this is totally wrong. What are you reading anyway? The middle class that you mention started to exist in the late 1900s. Since 1800 the industrial revolution was building this wealth. All regulations, high taxes & unionization started to destroy it. The wealth reached its peak after WWII DESPITE the taxes not b/c of them. TODAY we need 2 income families & there is a growing rich poor gap specifically b/c of all the high taxes & regulations. They just took 50 years to destroy wealth
No it's not wrong. Are you trying to tell me the children and immigrants working in industrial factories in the 19th century were wealthy? Please read more books instead of just parroting lines to try and sound intelligent.
@mwells219: yes, the higher taxation and regulation whittled away at middle class wealth, overall; you take a "few" regulations that served a good purpose and broad brush everything with that....Americans see now that socialism is not the answer...capitalism with reasonable restrictions is the answer...it lifts all boats.....
@tristramshandy3: most of those in poverty are uneducated or unmotivated people....they are free to have less....also, how the poverty levels are calculated is a joke...another liberal fucked up process....capitalism has lifted more of the masses out of poverty than any other system...I guess you should go live in Russia or China (and not in Hong Kong, the capitalist mecca there, where the people have a high standard of living!), if you like their low standards of living....
I agree that most of the people living in poverty are uneducated. I don't agree that they are unmotivated. It must be nice to have these generalizations in place- that way you never have to THINK.
Also, you talk about capitalism lifting people out of poverty. I agree that capitalism has generally led to increased material wealth.
What I don't see evidence for is that capitalism has made people happier.
Isn't that the end goal? Happiness? Can you show me evidence this system makes people happy?
@tristramshandy3: ahhh, now you've resorted to trying to make your opponent quantify happiness....as soon as you prove that love exists, then maybe i'll answer that ignorant one...man sure spends a lot of time chasing after wealth as much as love, don't you think? lol....those little African kids with the swollen bellies never seem able to crack a smile....hmmm....you socialist fools....
So, short answer- you have no evidence to suggest we are happier now, and that our system is a success.
Meanwhile, I have a mountain of sociological evidence that proves our society is DYSFUNCTIONAL and UNHEALTHY- from highest prison population to OUTLANDISH drug abuse rates- particularly anti-depressants, to the worst k-12 education to the highest violent crime rate, by FAR, in the developed world.
Our society is the result of capitalism and market mentality.
I'll provide another reason why this notion that we are all materialistically better off is a myth.
The standard of living has increased, you say? So too has the COST of living, indeed at a greater rate since Reagan's policies took effect.
How many people do you know who pay rent, phone bills, electricity bills and utility bills, require clean clothes, a car and basic hygiene, pay for gas, food, pens, parking fees and tolls...
@tristramshandy3: most people got themselves into debt when the spent more than they earned. Most of these people are not going bankrupt due to medical bills. They are going bankrupt cuz their spending habits are out-of-control. These "people" you speak of are all spending beyond their means...they need to get certain skills so as to increase their incomes and cut their discretionary spending!
I agree that Americans have poor economic understanding- and bad personal spending habits. I think it has a lot to do with the impulse to buy being perpetuated at every corner- it's like a drug- especially if you watch TV.
Am I making excuses for people? To an extent. Are there serious sociological issues at play here? Absolutely.
Things are rarely as black and white as partisans make it appear.
Also, you always have an ideoligical solution- but it's rarely that easy.
A LOT of people played by the rules- but lost their jobs, lost their coverage, and then were unlucky enough to get sick. It happens all the time. These aren't BAD people who are trying to screw the system or made bad decisions- they just had bad luck- and our system doesn't allow a lot of wiggle room for people down on their luck.
Blah blah blah. Just because you do not understand what I said does not diminish the sense it makes. Come back when you have anything to offer and can answer the very simple question I asked.
Otherwise stop crying and take your education like a grown-up.
@tristramshandy3: contd...under your logic, tristra, the little starving African kids with the swollen bellies should be the happiest people on earth, huh? lol....they have nothing.....happy, happy, happy.....lol......liberals/socialists never cease to amaze/startle me....
@tristramshandy3: you couldn't be more wrong in your analysis....capitalism has lifted more of the masses out of poverty and wretchedness than any other system...it's not even close, my Love....humanbeings are "self-interested" creatures...as sure as the sun appears every morning...you have to recognized that in any system or you're doomed...won't work well...give me capitalism any day of the week...socialism is for losers
you have no evidence to suggest that human nature is selfish. I could just as easily say we are TAUGHT that behavior and you would not be able to refute it.
Capitalism is an inherently myopic, unsustainable system that does NOT make people happy and can't last.
We have lived in a world of mass production for only about 100 years- and we have done more damage in that short time than our species did in the scores of thousands of years beforehand.
@tristramshandy3: you don't comprehend well....I said people are "self-interested"...you said "selfish"....you are the one that is brainwashed with your "happy people" rantings....you must be one of those clueless hippies...lol....you'll learn sooner or later...or remain a stupid, naive hippie
Also, I am not interested in material wealth- I freely acknowledge capitalism has increased material wealth.
My concern is with happiness. Can you show me how capitalism has increased human happiness? And when you cannot, shouldn't we try to find a better system?
A society should be measured by how happy people are (low crime rates, education levels), NOT by how much money the top 1% owns and controls (GDP).
@tristramshandy3:...we've covered the "happiness" base....you can no more define "happiness" than you can "love"....most people will aspire to have more wealth..and those things improve their day--to-day lives. People are self-interested creatures...you socialists/communists can't get around that one....that's why your systems fail..they're doomed from the start...people will not work hard once they see that no matter how hard they work, they'll get the same stupid little pair of eyeglasses
@tristramshandy3: your brain has been softened by liberalism...America is more "sharing" than any nation on earth...we give more benefit/charity to the world than any other nation in history....because we have the will to do that and the MEANS to do it...thank you capitalism
are we more sharing than any nation on earth? we are the only industrialized nation that doesn't insure all of its citizens
I would try to get into a serious discussion, but I don't think you are capable- I sincerely doubt as to whether you are even capable of serious reflection upon a system you have been so utterly and hopelessly brainwashed into accepting without question
So I won't waste both of our times trying to get you to explain how this capitalist system is sustainable
@tristramshandy3: if you liberals would allow the free market to truly work, you'd see wonderful things...people would have the money to buy any insurance they'd like or to self-insure...reduce the corporate tax rates (USA's tax rates are highest in the world, except for India's)...more jobs would be produced
What is the point of this debate other than to provide for you a platform with which to educate me?
The fact that you have failed is a condemnation on the utter insufficiency of your rhetorical capabilities.
I have probably read more history in the last 6 months than you have in your life- which makes your suggestion that I get an education kind of amusing to me.
@tristramshandy3: you can sit around and philosophize until you're blue in the face...at the end of the day, finance, economics, accounting, business, etc are more practical....try hanging a sign around your neck...."Philosopher" ....and see how many jobs outside of the universities you obtain...does your Obama have a philosopher on staff?? LOL LOL
I understand your point of view- very utilitarian, very American.
Our country has a long history of looking down on "book learning" as useless. It's one of our grandest short-comings.
Here are some philosophers who have changed the world with their useless "ideas"- Jesus Christ, Ghandi, John Locke, Aristotle, Machiavelli, Thomas Jefferson, Socrates, Confucius, Lao-Tze, Buddha, Freud, Darwin, etc.
@tristramshandy3: I should have figured you were a heathen, also...Jesus Christ, the Son of God, a philosopher...lol.....John Locke discussed at length the accumulation of private property and the appropriation of items from nature when one mixes his labor with it...making them one's own property...missed those lessons, huh? lol
I am familiar with Locke's teachings- I happen to disagree with him about quite a bit.
The point of my post wasn't to show you people who I agreed with, it was to show you the power of IDEAS and philosophy- something you seem to think is a waste of time; it isn't. It shapes the world we live in in almost every way you can imagine.
A heathen? what- because like MOST human beings I don't believe the RIDICULOUS stories of talking snakes and evil, murderous, jealous gods?
@tristramshandy3: realistic ideas and action...if I had to choose one or the other in history, between scientists, engineers, architects, accountants, fianciers, etc., on the one hand...and poets, fictional authors, philosophers, etc. on the other hand....I'd choose the former, without any hesitation
You fail to recognize the inseparable correlation between the ideas generated by philosophy and acting on those ideas by accountants, financiers, architects, etc
Modern capitalism, as we practice it, would not exist today without the philosophy of John Locke and Adam Smith, among others.
FIRST comes the ideas- the results of THINKING- then comes the action you respect and admire so much
Why you admire the house and pay no heed to the foundation is beyond me
@tristramshandy3: contd...also, you can have all the philosophers in the world, but it's the ones who implement the philosophies and work to make nations great....you can't get around it....money...finance.....personal property....personal incentives....love is a powerful force....happiness is pursued...but materiality is chased to bring some happiness....you're kicking against the bricks here
Economics is itself a philosophy, especially those which advocate lasseiz-faire ideals, such as the Austrians.
They like to think they are scientific, but really they're just guessing with their human, imperfect logic.
And then when the flaws are exposed through superior logic or empirical data, they simply insist that we didn't go far ENOUGH. If we had, naturally, everyone would see how right they were and how the results were wrong.
Philosophy, did I say? Sheesh, this is more like RELIGION.
@tristramshandy3: i have nothing against learning some literature, but it's patently clear that you are a liberal idealist/socialist/day-dreamer, who needs to get into reality a bit more....you and your "happy" philosophy are ludicrous...you are not grounded in reality...i'll educate you on that plane, if you'd like...lol
I think the fundamental premise of the market system- that the consumer plays the role of checking market forces- doesn't work in a society where the average person is completely disconnected from the methods of production, and frankly, there's no nice way to say this, isn't well educated enough to make informed choices.
If Americans were well educated, our system would function as it is supposed to. But they aren't, so it doesn't.
I'm interested in this concept of "reality" you speak of. This "reality" that I am separated from- could you discuss it. What is it like? What are its virtues? Why should I, as you seem to suggest, "join reality"?
@tristramshandy3: you don't have to join the reality....you'll continue to not be taken seriously....go ahead and try to evaluate nations based upon their "happiness".....lol......lol...you never defined that, did you? LOL
@tristramshandy3: we covered ad nauseum the reality from which you are separated....you'd rather hide in a book of poetry than deal with reality....that's fine....right or wrong, few people (relatively speaking) can make a living as a philosopher, poet, writer, daydreamer....I'd highly suggest engineering, accounting, finance, law, architecture, carpentry, bricklaying, etc.....you must be a professor of B.S.??? lol...most liberal arts professors I know are B.S....lol
@tristramshandy3: truthfully, I know many liberal arts professors...I conjure genuine respect for few of them....most (notice I didn't say "all") would not be able to make much money in the real world....that's why they decided to teach...I have multiple degrees and have gone back to college to get certain classes for another certification....I can't believe how un-worldly and naive some of them are....I also have family members in academia, so your assumptions are incorrect.
How sad- it always comes down to money for the right. They have been so effectively brainwashed that they cannot think of ANY other way to measure life or success than in terms of dollar bills.
It's really quite tragic.
And sad. For you.
When you lay on your deathbed, do you honestly think you will be thinking about how much money you made?
@tristramshandy3: you may or may not have seen more than I have...how would we know? lol,,,,and just for the record, I haven't seen much evidence of your vast knowledge of history, politics, nor art...I'm not saying you don't possess grand knowledge of these subjects, but you certainly haven't evidenced it here....lol
@tristramshandy3: we would disagree on why society has degenerated...in my opinion, the "social progressives" have a lot to do with it...and the loss of pride...I do blame a lot of it on the liberals....and if you wish to start down the road of "showing off" in various areas, anyone can stump another person with pieces from their fields...you don't make a lot of sense....
@tristramshandy3: and I whole-heartedly agree with #2 and #3...#1 would be mere foolishness in today's world...the nation's with the best/strongest military will be better off, and assuming that nation is not evil, it will protect the others, who could not or would not support a strong military
well, we have the best, strongest military- and I don't think we are better off.
I don't think you appreciate the danger a militarized society poses to liberty.
we never have money for health care, or mass transit- or anything that will make society better. But, we ALWAYS have trillions to throw away on useless, unnecessary wars.
Being a strong military power, I would argue, actually hurts our society in many ways.
@tristramshandy3: ah, yes, the media....the liberal media....lol.....I see that the media and Hollywood have done everything they can to influence (subtly and unsubtly) the minds of Americans, especially children...these social progressives have tried to undermine parental authority in many ways...that was the first step in their plan....the schools started teaching socialism/liberalism crap...I could go on and on....
@tristramshandy3: chances are you don't see it, cuz you don't wish to face it....there have been polls for years that show most journalists/media persons are libs...I can tell you are one of those libs who won't concede anything of substance...I'm just wasting my time...opposition to the war??...surely you are high...lol....all your "mainstream" media were opposed to the war and beat Bush up about it...now they don't talk about it with Obammy in there.
I do appreciate the way our preconceived ideas have a tendency to blind us to reality- we must all maintain vigilance on that front at all times.
It's not easy.
What mainstream media outlet opposed the Iraq war when it MATTERED (between Oct. 2002 and March 2003?)
I understand the media turned against it after things went crazy- but they failed to do their preliminary job- which would have avoided the whole needless war in the first place.
@tristramshandy3: and you need to keep your daytime job...no "jokes" for you...yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree...I don't think you and I would agree on the color of the sky...but November will be very interesting...you know I'm waiting in great anticipation to see the youtube videos....I have a distinct feeling the Left will be 1/2 hiding out and 1/2 displaying their seething madness for the world to see....lol
@tristramshandy3: money will always bring influence...they should take some of the undue influence out of the game...but it gets complicated with 1st Amendment rights...I didn't get a chance to read that latest Supreme Court case that Obama railed againse recently...but i'm more worried about lowering corporate income tax rates to lure more corps./jobs back to our shores...we have the highest corp. tax rates in world (except India)
I don't think it gets complicated at ALL with 1st amendment rights. PEOPLE have first amendment rights- corporations do NOT- well, actually, they do now, but that is a gross perversion of our constitution, a document that doesn't mention corporations ONE TIME.
Our founders could not have seen the way money would consolidate, and the power these transnational corporations would have over our system- and they failed to plan for it.
@tristramshandy3: contd....Ireland reduced their corp. rates five years ago or so and reaped mega benefits...these Dems and Repubs enjoy the lobbyists' money/trips/etc....it happens on the state level even more....there should be some overhaul...I don't know what would work best right now...
I don't think many corporations are paying ANY taxes at all. The laws always have loopholes, and you would be surprised how little rich people, and wealthy businesses, actually pay.
Dropping the tax rate won't do shit- not when people will work for 50 cents a day in Venezuela or Indonesia.
@tristramshandy3: you are totally misinformed...the USA would benefit tremendously from lower corporate tax rates....as I said, Ireland lowered theirs and reaped great benefits...google it and explore...and the rich pay the bulk of the taxes in this nation....there's no way around it...they have $ to hire excellent CPAs to turn over every rock on the tax laws, but they still pay the bulk of the taxes here...you've bought that liberal nonsense, hook, line, and sinker....
I just googled "irish financial success". The first article that came up talked about how the primary reason why the irish were increasing their financial services capabilities was because of a well trained, productive work force.
That links back DIRECTLY to my claim that education was the reason for their success- which was, in fact, a SOCIALIST, govt sponsored investment in the community.
@tristramshandy3: Ireland is currently the second richest country in the European Union, with a per capita GDP higher than that of Germany, France and Britain. But in the mid-1980s, the economy was faltering, college graduates were emigrating, and the outlook was bleak: "We went on a borrowing, spending and taxing spree, and that nearly drove us under," said Deputy Prime Minister Mary Harney. "It was because we nearly went under that we got the courage to change."
@tristramshandy3: i'm beginning to find that you are very disingenuous...i just googled "Ireland's drop in corporate income tax rate" and found tons of stuff...typical lib...find what you want to find...dropping the corporate income tax rate is the CORRECT measure...whether you like it or not...i pasted a bit for you in the last post...can't post many characters here
How was I disingenuos? I TOLD you what google search I did- and what results I found.
I never claimed dropping the corporate tax rate had NOTHING to do with their success- but I had heard a story about how they had invested heavily in education, and as someone who understand how important education is, I figured that HAD to be a large factor in their success.
I EASILY found evidence to back up that assertion.
Also, I made a couple of points you were unable or unwilling to respond to, and your argument suffers as a result.
You spke of the liberal media.
I asked you to find examples of the mainstream media being against the war between oct 2002-march 2003. I also challenged you to find a mainstream media outlet advocating the liberal position on health care-single payer.
@tristramshandy3: i'm not going to go and do your homework for you...it's disingenous for anyone to sit there and tell me that the mainstream media does not have a liberal slant....next you'll tell me they're conservative...lol...before talk radio and FOX News (a direct response to the liberal-leaning mainstream media in USA), there were almost NO fair and balanced media
I didn't ask you to do my homework. I have researched this issue far deeper than you have- that's why I know what I'm talking about- and when I ask people for SPECIFICS to back up the INCORRECT theory that the USA mainstream media is "liberal", I never get anything of substance.
They can name a couple of books- both of which I have read and refuted.
They LOVE pointing to a study about journalists and their politics that doesn't really prove anything.
Conservatives rule. Are you kidding. Even when a Republican president was in, he was a moderate to liberal. When the one time we had a centrist to right Pres with Reagan, the congress was totally controlled for 30 years by the Dem's. So please do not tell me conservatives ruled anything. If we did we would not be in the fiscal mess we are in today with an incompetent pres and totally corrupt congress.
mvies77 2 months ago
Why isn't this program offered Russian, Chinese and (North) Korean Languages.
MarkFFHH 1 year ago
Will someone pass Amy a joint?
SWGutto 1 year ago
That opening video of the people dancing was the corniest things I've seen this weekend. And I've seen a LOT of Republicans on TV saying a lot of corny stuff on health care!
woolgathered 1 year ago
@woolgathered: the corniest thing a liberal like you sees is what you see when you look in the mirror every morning (or don't look at much...I can't blame you there). I can't wait for the November elections, so I can hear you libs squeal as pigs. LOL
ConservativeRuleinUS 1 year ago
@ConservativeRuleinUS So when you look in the mirrow, does it crack?
woolgathered 1 year ago
Typical short sighted person who does NOT understand American politics. Only someone like that would celebrate a November victory in March.
You should know better.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3: typical elitist liberal...you always underestimate the fury and will of the People. I've never felt such anger at liberal shenanigans as I do now. And at least half the population feels the way I do. I feel the winds changing against this socialistic crap. I believe you will see soon, starting in November.
ConservativeRuleinUS 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3: you are the typical liberal, with his head in the sand. Nancy Pelosi is another one, with her 11% approval rating. LOL
ConservativeRuleinUS 1 year ago
Did you know republicans in congress have lower approval ratings than democrats?
How do you explain that?
I'm hardly typical.
You should know that by now :)
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3: they've probably been tainted by the Democrats (majority) now, who have been running things into the ground....the approval ratings starting tanking when Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid started their socialistic undertaking...how do you explain that? lol
ConservativeRuleinUS 1 year ago
Well, I would ask you to explain how approval ratings for republicans actually remains LOWER than approval ratings for democrats in congress.
The disapproval and disgust with congress and govt in general transcends your petty partisanship- it covers BOTH parties.
Have a nice day.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3 You are getting your data from Huffington Post. Both Rasmussen (+9) and Gallup (+5) show Repubs beating Democrats. Besides being able to find a poll that says anything that you want - are you suggesting that we run sheeplike to the voting booth and make our selection based on mindless group think?
SWGutto 1 year ago
@SWGutto I'm suggesting what I have been suggesting for many years- anyone who is STILL voting for democrats or republicans is a fucking idiot. Period.
I mean, seriously, how fucking stupid ARE you people?
You're sick of dems so you want repubs.
In two years, you'll be sick of repubs and want dems.
Goddamn Americans are so fucking stupid!
Have a great day.
It's good to be alive.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3 Democrats are so popular, that they gave Teddy Kennedy's lifetime Senate seat to an unknown Republican, and Harry Reid's son won't campaign using his last name.
SWGutto 1 year ago
@SWGutto do you think republican or democrats matter? Do you really think there is a substantial difference?
Sigh.
You seem caught in a trap- the two party trap where there AREN'T two actual parties, but two different competing interests that are both controlled by the banks.
WAKE UP bitch!
Stop hurting yourself and the country with the partisan bullshit.
Adios.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3 Wow. When you said, "Wake up, bitch" it was so enlightening and empowering, that I changed my whole life. Thanks for the brilliant commentary and advice. Such masterful debate. Incredible wit. You eviscerate your targets. So you are a unmarried English teacher poet. Too bad you haven't learned how to be a proper contrarian. By the way, read the posts. I never said to vote Republican or even suggested that I support Republicans. We all don't fit into your little boxes.
SWGutto 1 year ago
@SWGutto How sad that you focused on one silly line rather than the ultimate and profound truth contained in my message.
You see what you want to see- hey, you're like everybody else.
I hope someday you discover the bliss that is reading Montaigne's Essays.
I doubt you possess the spirit to be able to, but I still encourage you to try.
Have a nice life.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3 I hope that someday you learn the bliss that comes from strong physical labor, or from realizing genuine humanity instead of being wicked and spiteful.
At the end of each of your statements, you write some nonsense like "I win!"
But it is not you who gets to decide. In fact, if u drive the other party further away, what did u accomplish? In all of your literary adventures, in all of the essays that u supposedly devoured & now personify, how does this simple fact escape u?
SWGutto 1 year ago
@SWGutto Please spare me the pity. I am happier than you will ever be.
I wish people like you understood the INCREDIBLE benefits of intellectual curiosity and study.
The world would be a MUCH better place if dumb ass americans weren't so anti-intellectual.
Now, silly freak, turn off your computer and go read Montaigne's complete essays.
I hope you can understand it.
Give it a shot.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3 Read Montaigne? Sure. After my 60 hour day, I would love to spend my free time reading obscure English lit so that English Teachers would finally consider me "intellectual." I am the ultimate artist scientist - I am an engineer. We study the sciences & liberal arts, & then create useful products for humanity. I'll read Montaigne. You read some Faraday or Franklin (yes, ole Ben) or Otto. Don't lecture me about easy, English professor, until u have passed Quantum Physics.
SWGutto 1 year ago
@SWGutto Montaigne is neither obscure nor English. He was a Frenchman- he was probably the wisest man to ever live, and if you choose not to read him out of some anti-intellectual spite, you harm yourself, not me.
It's a shame you work so much.
You sell yourself short when not providing adequate time for leisure- both physical, as well as intellectual.
I think it's great you can understand quantum physics- but it's a shame you would struggle to get Montaigne.
Try being well rounded.
Adios.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3 Are u well-rounded, yourself? Do u engage in physical activity? Have u studied any applied sciences? Do u engage in intellectual curiousity? Or do u read old French essays & then somehow claim the work as your own, imagining everyone else as inferior & droll to your enlightened standards? I have read Homer in the original Greek, but prefer Twain & Franklin & even Louis L'amour (for escape). I will try Montaigne, of course, but then you will have no intellectual leverage.
SWGutto 1 year ago
@SWGutto I'm well rounded- perhaps not as much as I could be. I have no interest or passion for math or science. My intellectual passions are for sociology, history, philosophy, literature (the best!).
Beyond reading over 1,000 books, I have lived in 6 countries and traveled the world extensively.
I have also been everywhere in the USA.
Franklin is a utilitarian fool.
If you MUST read Americans, thoreau and emerson are FAR more edifying.
Adios.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
still waiting on you to provide evidence for your "liberal media" theory. Doesn't seem like you have any.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3: then I'd have to do your homework for you again...just like the success of the tax cuts in Ireland thing. Why do you think media outlets such as FOX News and conservative talk radio became SO POPULAR...e.g.: FOX News has wiped the floor with all the other mainstream and liberal media outlets (hasn't even been close)...Americans were hungry for more balanced and more conservative viewpoints, since they had been TOTALLY lacking for so many years.
ConservativeRuleinUS 1 year ago
You never proved tax cuts were the primary reason Ireland underwent tremendous economic success. I thought we established that.
Secondly, fox entertainment channel is only tops in CABLE entertainment channels. Fox has FAR fewer viewers than the major, nightly news broadcasts on ABC, CBS and NBC.
Again, you offer ZERO evidence to prove the point about a "liberal media". You just said that a lot of people watch fox. So what? That proves NOTHING
I've DONE my homework
You need to on this issue
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3 80% of College Professors surveyed, self-indicated that they were Liberal. A recent poll at New York Times indicated that 23 out of 24 reporters were Liberal. Anyway the polls are few years old now, but here is a simple test for you. You are self-described Liberal. When you watch CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS or read the New York Times, LA Times, Washington Post - do you agree with the coverage/articles more often than not? Then they are slanted in a Liberal direction.
SWGutto 1 year ago
@SWGutto The coverage, on issues of real import, leans very far to the right. I defy you to find an anti-war mainstream media outlet during october 2002 and march 2003.
I defy you to find a mainstream media outlet that advocated on behalf of single payer health care.
You can't.
So, what exactly are you basing this liberal media theory on?
Do you think reporters determine what gets on the air?
What are the political leanings of OWNERS and EDITORS?
THOSE are the ones with true power.
Adios.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
tristramshandy3: if you can't recognize that humans are self-interested individuals (you're even seeking "happiness"...lol)....then, your brain is much too soft from liberalism for you to debate anyone or anything on these boards...LOL
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
Capitalism with reasonable checks and balances will always win over these socialists/communists dreamworlds....what a bunch of losers....never seems to work...gee, I wonder why? LOL LOL LOL
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
If people are voting against their interests, then you have to first prove that liberal policy is in their economic interests. If you do not prove that premise, then your argument is weak.
Try this: Liberal policy is trash because ignorant urban blacks vote Democrat. Is that a fair or logical comment? No.
Rednecks support Republicans, therefore conservative policy is bad. Are you serious? Frank produces self-serving and cowardly nonsense for the thoughtless followers of a failing ideology.
ltjohnb 2 years ago
Capitalism with reasonable, commonsense restrictions will always be superior in lifting all boats to higher levels...full-blown socialism has never lifted the masses out of poverty over the long-haul...look at Europe now...they're on the decline thanks to their socialist bent
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
Ok but what are these common sense restrictions and who gets to decide and implement these restrictions?
mwells219 2 years ago
@mwells219: how does a civil society ever "decide" upon its rules??...this one is a representative democracy...not perfect, but the best game going on the globe right now
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
Except that its very quickly degenerating into a socialist command economy nightmare. We really have no rule of law anymore & certainly no functioning constiution. We have mob rule.
kotash2 2 years ago
@kotash2: there is a functioning constitution, if we hold the Powers that Be to it...but we have judicial activism more than ever, in which these (mostly liberal) judges are thwarting the will of the people at every chance...issues that have been or should be decided in the legislative arena...whether it be gay marriage or right to bear arms...
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
The contstit. is effecttively dead& shredded. Have you read Thomas Woods JR book who killed the contstitution. All 3 branches of gov are at fault. The supreme court has given ligitimacy to every manner of illegal action from foreign wars to health care. The fed gov has no ethical or legal right to provide insurance or healthcare. Sometimes the will of people will actually be at odds with the consti. &the presidents job is to defend the constitution against the masses, against the majority
kotash2 2 years ago
if it's the best game going- how do you explain our results? we have a large and growing disparity between rich and poor (always a bad sociological indicator), highest violent crime rate in the industrialized world, highest prison population on the planet, and far and away the highest rates of drug abuse- both legal and illegal.
Oh yeah, the worst health of the developed world; highest obesity rate on the planet.
If our society is the best- as you claim- we would have better results.
Goodnight
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: if these socialists would allow capitalism to work, it will always deliver the best results....where is the socialist utopia on earth?? Man is a self-interested creature, this is as obvious as the air we breath...so, we must tailor a system that "uses" that self-interest to provide the goods/services we need/want....
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
where is the free market utopia?
truth is, it has never existed.
We live in a capitalist society and we have the least functional society of the developed world.
The evidence is overwhelming.
Have a nice day.
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: you also conveniently left out the fact that we have the most patents of any nation on earth, the most wealth measured in GDP, we were responsible for defeating Hitler and Japan in WWII (take us out of that picture, and it's certain that Hitler and Japan would have rolled on)... massive # of new pharmaceuticals, etc.
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
much pharmaceutical research is actually funded by taxpayers- more of that socialism you loathe so much.
The RUSSIANS were MOST responsible for the defeat of Hitler- read a history book.
We do have the highest GDP, byut what does that have to do with you? The top 1% control MOST of our wealth- and the notion that we are "all in it together" is to get poor idiots like you blindly supporting the very rich people that fleece you.
How are you enjoying paying interest to the banks?
LOL.
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
YOU: "full-blown socialism has never lifted the masses out of poverty over the long-haul"
MY ANSWER:
"every socialist experiment of any significance in the 20th century - without
exception - has either been crushed, overthrown, or invaded, or corrupted,
perverted, subverted, or destabilized, by the U.S. Not one socialist government or movement ... was permitted to rise or fall on its own merits; not one was left secure enough to freely and fully relax control at home." - William Blum
bapyou 2 years ago 2
@bapyou: what a laugh...the USA has been around for less than 250 years...yet socialism has NEVER lifted the masses out of poverty over the long-haul...get an education first, then try to debate....and it never will....it's only for losers...people by nature are self-interested creatures...until you tap into that human aspect, you will get NOWHERE EVER....
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
"socialism has NEVER lifted the masses out of poverty over the long-haul, get an education first, then try to debate"
You obviously are the one lacking an education. Do you know absolutely nothing about US efforts to sabotage the economies of even moderately socialist countries in Latin America? Examples are numerous: Cuba, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Chile, on & on.
We all know how much you worship Milton Friedman. We also know the horrors Friedmanite policies create in their wake.
bapyou 2 years ago
@bapyou: no, you have no commonsense, as well as no good education. Blaming the failings of socialism upon the USA, which has only been in existence since the late 1700s....lol. Socialism has never successfully prevailed anywhere, at any time in history. It is diametrically opposed to human nature. Humans are self-interested creatures by nature, so a successful system will "harness" (checks and balances) that self-interest for the good of all. Get real.
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
"you have no commonsense, as well as no good education"
That's predictable coming from someone with a power-mad username like your's.
"Blaming the failings of socialism upon the USA, which has only been in existence since the late 1700s."
That was not my original comment. (Aapparently conservonuts such as yourself have a problem with reading comprehension.) My original comment: during the 20th century,the US has killed millions in its battle against communism and socialism.
bapyou 2 years ago
@bapyou: you really are uneducated...and with a name such as your's, you have nerve talking about another's...LOL.....typical hypocritical lib...you are ignorant...you blame the USA for failed socialism....why didn't it originate many thousands of years ago and flourish since, if it's so superior?? LOL...you really are a dummy...typical...
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
" you really are uneducated"
On the contrary: I have masters degree and a library numbering well over 3000 volumes.
"you blame the USA for failed socialism"
I blame the U.S. for intervening in nations meaning no harm to the US, nations which merely wished to order their countries along lines of their choosing. The U.S. has overthrown democracies around the world (iran 1953; Guatemala 1954; Chile 1973), calling such overthrows "fighting communism" ot "bringing freedom to the ignorant."
bapyou 2 years ago
"why didn't (socialism) originate many thousands of years ago and flourish since"?
That's like asking "Why didn't we have quantum mechanics 1000s of years ago?" Capitalism, as we know it today did not exist 350 years ago; there were fuedal societies in Europe. You've heard of history haven't you? Everything has a history, including political & economic philosophy.
Furthermore, there have been functioning socialist societies (Paris 1860s, 1930s Spain). They met with brutal repression.
bapyou 2 years ago
@bapyou: you won't admit the obvious truth: socialism doesn't work, has never worked well, and will never work well.....lol.....it's as obvious as the air you breath....people are self-interested creatures.....socialism is for losers....the more I speak with you, the more you sound like one of those losers!! LOL
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
"you won't admit the obvious truth"
Re-read my previous posts. You obviously have a reading comprehension defecit. You've been put in your place by the true history I have outlined in them, about which most conservtives are clueless.
bapyou 2 years ago
@bapyou: you obviously have a mental disorder...it's called liberalism
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
"you obviously have a mental disorder...it's called liberalism"
And you, obviously, are a dunderhead.
As I wrote two comment back: Liberalism & socialism are NOT the same thing? Quit watching Fox! They make you stupid!
Let me ask you, Mr. Dunderhead: If someone starts running, & you trip them, & then mock the person you've tripped saying "You can't run!", is it the person's fault that they haven't been able to run?
You write comments that show your complete ignorance of US history.
bapyou 2 years ago
@bapyou: no one said liberalism and socialism were the same, despite the fact they go hand-in-hand...get the wax out of your ears, boy
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
even though you are rude and angry- two dominant traits I see on the right today- I appreciate you coming to democracynow to get a different point of view.
I try to do the same thing.
I just watched some Glenn Beck videos- that guy should get an oscar.
Have a good evening.
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: mad that my nation has tolerated a socialist in the White House....you bet...socialism is for losers
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
Well, your rhetoric doesn't make sense.
If Obama was a socialist, he would have nationalized the banks. Instead, the large banks are making record profits.
If Obama was a socialist, he would be trying for single payer health care. He isn't- he is trying to enrich the insurance companies.
I know people are telling you he is a socialist- but they aren't providing substantial evidence to back up those claims.
Study history- don't be so easy to fool.
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
socialism=means of production owned by the state.
Therefore, socialism built the pyramids, the great wall of china, machu picchu, the taj mahal, the parthenon- all built with taxpayer money- all govt projects.
You talk about history and go back thousands of years- but it is capitalism that is the radical departure from history- people lived in socialist and communist societies throughout the hunter/gatherer and agricultural ages.
Industrialization is both wonderful and horrific.
Adios.
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: the state doesn't create any wealth....it only "takes" private wealth in the form of taxes and fees....private individuals and businesses (unharnessed/allowed to flourish) with the profit incentive will produce the wealth...these "rich" people you like to bash must not be punished...they are the ones who can create jobs....
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: and, yep, capitalism is the radical departure that created the greatest nation in the world....the USA....never has a nation been as wealthy and powerful in the history of the world...we are not doing well ever since we allowed socialism/liberalism to creep in and start to decay things....liberalism is a mental disorder
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
so the greatness of nations is measured only in wealth? I think that is the product of corporate brainwashing.
Look at our society- we have more problems than any other developed society.
How can you say we are the greatest when we have over 2 million people in prison?
What other countries have you lived in and traveled to?
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
hey tom frank ....now do a book 'WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH ILLINOIS, " OR HOW OBAMA BETRAYED THE COMMON FOLKS FOR WALL STREET AND CORPORATE GLOBAL AMERICA......
ERROLCUSTERFLYNN4EVR 2 years ago
only if i can write a larger book about how neo conservatives have been betraying the people for corporate america for over 30 years.
mwells219 2 years ago
mwells219,, you are a raving inchorrent braindead imbecile, OUR REPS AND DEMS ARE ALL OWNED BY WALL STREET AND CORPORATE AMERICA, YOU STUPID FOOL, SHUT THE FUCK UP.
ERROLCUSTERFLYNN4EVR 2 years ago
as you are rudely talking in all caps you seem to be the one who is raving and incoherent who doesn't use spell check.
mwells219 2 years ago
mwells219........fuckOFF AND DONT BOTHER ME.
ERROLCUSTERFLYNN4EVR 2 years ago
@ERROLCUSTERFLYNN4EVR ..........HOW'S THAT HOPE AND CHANGE WORKIN' OUT FOR ALL YOU WITH GAS, ENERGY AND FOOD PRICES THRU THE ROOF,,,,,,,,but you can get a real deal on an I Phone and made in china computer gadgets,,,,,i hope you can play the stock market and all the other wall street casino games to keep the DREAM ALIVE..........?
ERROLCUSTERFLYNN4EVR 4 months ago
But remember many americans work for corporate america, many of us have stock retirement portfolios that are dependant on the success of corp Amer. I would suggest that the problem isnt corporations per se but the special favors & subsidies they get from gov. Big corps. buy influence. But so do unions, so do other special interest groups. This is unfair. The gov should not be a special favor machine. The solution is to shrink the power & influence of the gov. Frank doesnt get this.
kotash2 2 years ago
the problem is the idea of a "free market" controlled by a magical "invisible hand" that automatically balances the forces of supply and demand and is inherently democratic.
mwells219 2 years ago
Its not a problem at all. To the extent that people around the world have access to food, clothing, shelter and basic freedom where they are able to pursue their goals & aspirations; we have a free market guided by supply & demand. The market is driven by desire for profit & fear of loss. A market is voluntary; fraud, theft, violence are crimes & should be punished. As an american...all the material wealth that allows for such a good quality of life is produced by the free market
kotash2 2 years ago
But what guarantee is there that a market acts in an inherently democratic manner and how do you explain market failure when supply is monopolised by a few people. And if the market allows for such a good quality of life why has the wealth distribution become so unequal with the top 5 percent of people in this country gettin an increasin percentage of the wealth.
mwells219 2 years ago
The reason why wealth is so unequal is specifically b/c of taxes, regulations &unions that seince the 1930s have limited competion & created barriers to entry to smaller upstart companies that could have produced newly wealth entrepreneurs. Large established industries have USED gov to secure their wealth & control. The banking industry is a giant gov controlled cartel ( the fed reserve) The solution is to LIMIT the size & power of gov&get gov OUT of the economy ( lassez faire)
kotash2 2 years ago
internet lolberterian.
mwells219 2 years ago
You denigrate Rockeller b/c U have swallowed the poisen pill of public school gov propaganda nonsense agaisnt the "robber barons" Sure there were industrialists that used the coercive power of the state to get special favors but thats b/c the corrupt GOV & politicians didnt stand up for LAissez faire principles. Gov.& business teamed up in this toxic mess that is really fascist & sold it to the people as "progressive" progress. You seem to have bought into this. TO your detriment
kotash2 2 years ago
see you're going off the assumption that markets are fairly competitive. read about people like john d. rockefeller who created oil monopolies and regularly screwed his competitors out of the market with monopolistic exploitations of the market. there is no democratic equalizing force in an economic market. That's why a middle class didn't really exist until after wwII in america when taxes were increased on companies during eisenhower's presidency.
mwells219 2 years ago
Again you really are mistaken. At its height Rockefeller only controlled a little more than 80-85 percent of the market. He got this control b/c he was better & smarter than everyone else, not b/c he "screwed" people or got gov help. He invented & marketed a whole host new products that made people better off. He produced things people wanted& needed & voluntarily bought at low prices. The POOR BENEFITTED THE MOST. He deserved every penny
kotash2 2 years ago
Again this is totally wrong. What are you reading anyway? The middle class that you mention started to exist in the late 1900s. Since 1800 the industrial revolution was building this wealth. All regulations, high taxes & unionization started to destroy it. The wealth reached its peak after WWII DESPITE the taxes not b/c of them. TODAY we need 2 income families & there is a growing rich poor gap specifically b/c of all the high taxes & regulations. They just took 50 years to destroy wealth
kotash2 2 years ago
No it's not wrong. Are you trying to tell me the children and immigrants working in industrial factories in the 19th century were wealthy? Please read more books instead of just parroting lines to try and sound intelligent.
mwells219 2 years ago
@mwells219: yes, the higher taxation and regulation whittled away at middle class wealth, overall; you take a "few" regulations that served a good purpose and broad brush everything with that....Americans see now that socialism is not the answer...capitalism with reasonable restrictions is the answer...it lifts all boats.....
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
Please use data to show that this was the case because there's much data to show that an increasing number of people were below the poverty line.
mwells219 2 years ago
poverty increased under Reagan's "lift all boats" economic strategy.
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: most of those in poverty are uneducated or unmotivated people....they are free to have less....also, how the poverty levels are calculated is a joke...another liberal fucked up process....capitalism has lifted more of the masses out of poverty than any other system...I guess you should go live in Russia or China (and not in Hong Kong, the capitalist mecca there, where the people have a high standard of living!), if you like their low standards of living....
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
I agree that most of the people living in poverty are uneducated. I don't agree that they are unmotivated. It must be nice to have these generalizations in place- that way you never have to THINK.
Also, you talk about capitalism lifting people out of poverty. I agree that capitalism has generally led to increased material wealth.
What I don't see evidence for is that capitalism has made people happier.
Isn't that the end goal? Happiness? Can you show me evidence this system makes people happy?
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: ahhh, now you've resorted to trying to make your opponent quantify happiness....as soon as you prove that love exists, then maybe i'll answer that ignorant one...man sure spends a lot of time chasing after wealth as much as love, don't you think? lol....those little African kids with the swollen bellies never seem able to crack a smile....hmmm....you socialist fools....
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
So, short answer- you have no evidence to suggest we are happier now, and that our system is a success.
Meanwhile, I have a mountain of sociological evidence that proves our society is DYSFUNCTIONAL and UNHEALTHY- from highest prison population to OUTLANDISH drug abuse rates- particularly anti-depressants, to the worst k-12 education to the highest violent crime rate, by FAR, in the developed world.
Our society is the result of capitalism and market mentality.
It has failed us miserably
adios
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
I'll provide another reason why this notion that we are all materialistically better off is a myth.
The standard of living has increased, you say? So too has the COST of living, indeed at a greater rate since Reagan's policies took effect.
How many people do you know who pay rent, phone bills, electricity bills and utility bills, require clean clothes, a car and basic hygiene, pay for gas, food, pens, parking fees and tolls...
... just to SURVIVE.
Where is the evil govt in all the above?
Lodatzor 1 year ago
yeah, people are working more and in far deeper debt- all thanks to the wonderful increased standard of living.
Our success is KILLING us.
Take care.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3: most people got themselves into debt when the spent more than they earned. Most of these people are not going bankrupt due to medical bills. They are going bankrupt cuz their spending habits are out-of-control. These "people" you speak of are all spending beyond their means...they need to get certain skills so as to increase their incomes and cut their discretionary spending!
ConservativeRuleinUS 1 year ago
I agree that Americans have poor economic understanding- and bad personal spending habits. I think it has a lot to do with the impulse to buy being perpetuated at every corner- it's like a drug- especially if you watch TV.
Am I making excuses for people? To an extent. Are there serious sociological issues at play here? Absolutely.
Things are rarely as black and white as partisans make it appear.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
Also, you always have an ideoligical solution- but it's rarely that easy.
A LOT of people played by the rules- but lost their jobs, lost their coverage, and then were unlucky enough to get sick. It happens all the time. These aren't BAD people who are trying to screw the system or made bad decisions- they just had bad luck- and our system doesn't allow a lot of wiggle room for people down on their luck.
There, but for the grace of Buddha, go you.
Remember that.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@Lodatzor: please return when you make an ounce of sense!
ConservativeRuleinUS 1 year ago
@ConservativeRuleinUS: please return when you have an actual argument.
Lodatzor 1 year ago
@Lodatzor: you don't make any sense. You're another naive, rambling liberal. LMFAO
ConservativeRuleinUS 1 year ago
@ConservativeRuleinUS:
Blah blah blah. Just because you do not understand what I said does not diminish the sense it makes. Come back when you have anything to offer and can answer the very simple question I asked.
Otherwise stop crying and take your education like a grown-up.
Lodatzor 1 year ago
Really? You are still throwing around those mindless generalizations, even as you are getting trounced in a debate by a liberal?
That's disappointing.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3: contd...under your logic, tristra, the little starving African kids with the swollen bellies should be the happiest people on earth, huh? lol....they have nothing.....happy, happy, happy.....lol......liberals/socialists never cease to amaze/startle me....
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
Well, that isn't really what I said now, was it?
I said materialism does not bring happiness- and materialism is a mode of life that seeks above and beyond the basic needs of life.
Obviously, people need to have shelter, clothing and food.
I wish you had the balls to admit the free market capitalist system is a failure- it simply doesn't meet the human needs of society.
Even Alan Greenspan admitted it failed. Why can't you?
Take care.
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: you couldn't be more wrong in your analysis....capitalism has lifted more of the masses out of poverty and wretchedness than any other system...it's not even close, my Love....humanbeings are "self-interested" creatures...as sure as the sun appears every morning...you have to recognized that in any system or you're doomed...won't work well...give me capitalism any day of the week...socialism is for losers
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
you have no evidence to suggest that human nature is selfish. I could just as easily say we are TAUGHT that behavior and you would not be able to refute it.
Capitalism is an inherently myopic, unsustainable system that does NOT make people happy and can't last.
We have lived in a world of mass production for only about 100 years- and we have done more damage in that short time than our species did in the scores of thousands of years beforehand.
I would be a capitalist- if it wasn't insanity!
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: you don't comprehend well....I said people are "self-interested"...you said "selfish"....you are the one that is brainwashed with your "happy people" rantings....you must be one of those clueless hippies...lol....you'll learn sooner or later...or remain a stupid, naive hippie
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
Yes, how foolish of me to think about the "happiness" of a society. I should just look at GDP and shut up.
:)
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
Also, I am not interested in material wealth- I freely acknowledge capitalism has increased material wealth.
My concern is with happiness. Can you show me how capitalism has increased human happiness? And when you cannot, shouldn't we try to find a better system?
A society should be measured by how happy people are (low crime rates, education levels), NOT by how much money the top 1% owns and controls (GDP).
Take care.
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3:...we've covered the "happiness" base....you can no more define "happiness" than you can "love"....most people will aspire to have more wealth..and those things improve their day--to-day lives. People are self-interested creatures...you socialists/communists can't get around that one....that's why your systems fail..they're doomed from the start...people will not work hard once they see that no matter how hard they work, they'll get the same stupid little pair of eyeglasses
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
how does having more wealth improve people's lives day to day?
again, you put forth the human nature argument- an argument you have ZERO evidence to support.
People in Europe are far more likely to believe sharing is not only OK, but it strengthens their society.
People in the USA are brainwashed into becoming little mindless consumers.
You say it's human nature- I can just as easily say it's corporate indoctrination.
Our system does NOT produce enough happy people to be justified.
Adios!
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: your brain has been softened by liberalism...America is more "sharing" than any nation on earth...we give more benefit/charity to the world than any other nation in history....because we have the will to do that and the MEANS to do it...thank you capitalism
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
are we more sharing than any nation on earth? we are the only industrialized nation that doesn't insure all of its citizens
I would try to get into a serious discussion, but I don't think you are capable- I sincerely doubt as to whether you are even capable of serious reflection upon a system you have been so utterly and hopelessly brainwashed into accepting without question
So I won't waste both of our times trying to get you to explain how this capitalist system is sustainable
You don't know
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: if you liberals would allow the free market to truly work, you'd see wonderful things...people would have the money to buy any insurance they'd like or to self-insure...reduce the corporate tax rates (USA's tax rates are highest in the world, except for India's)...more jobs would be produced
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
Too bad- we evil liberals are going to steal all of your money, rape your women, and shove Sartre in your fundamentalist faces!
Beware bitch!
Beware!
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: you sorely need an education....start with economics and finance classes... maybe, then, you can debate with some intelligence
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
What is the point of this debate other than to provide for you a platform with which to educate me?
The fact that you have failed is a condemnation on the utter insufficiency of your rhetorical capabilities.
I have probably read more history in the last 6 months than you have in your life- which makes your suggestion that I get an education kind of amusing to me.
Have a great day!
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
And while we are talking about education, I sense you could use some time studying philosophy and literature.
You might just discover there is more to the world than money.
Might.
Start with Shakespeare.
Well, maybe not START with him- let's start somewhere a little more basic- try reading Steinbeck's "The Pearl".
It should be easy for you to understand- it's about a 6th or 7th grade reading level.
As for philosophy- start with Stuart Mill's "On Liberty"
Let me know when you're done with that
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: you can sit around and philosophize until you're blue in the face...at the end of the day, finance, economics, accounting, business, etc are more practical....try hanging a sign around your neck...."Philosopher" ....and see how many jobs outside of the universities you obtain...does your Obama have a philosopher on staff?? LOL LOL
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
I understand your point of view- very utilitarian, very American.
Our country has a long history of looking down on "book learning" as useless. It's one of our grandest short-comings.
Here are some philosophers who have changed the world with their useless "ideas"- Jesus Christ, Ghandi, John Locke, Aristotle, Machiavelli, Thomas Jefferson, Socrates, Confucius, Lao-Tze, Buddha, Freud, Darwin, etc.
That list could go on for a VERY long time.
Abstract thought is really quite useful.
Take care.
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: I should have figured you were a heathen, also...Jesus Christ, the Son of God, a philosopher...lol.....John Locke discussed at length the accumulation of private property and the appropriation of items from nature when one mixes his labor with it...making them one's own property...missed those lessons, huh? lol
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
I am familiar with Locke's teachings- I happen to disagree with him about quite a bit.
The point of my post wasn't to show you people who I agreed with, it was to show you the power of IDEAS and philosophy- something you seem to think is a waste of time; it isn't. It shapes the world we live in in almost every way you can imagine.
A heathen? what- because like MOST human beings I don't believe the RIDICULOUS stories of talking snakes and evil, murderous, jealous gods?
LOL.
It's called REASON.
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: realistic ideas and action...if I had to choose one or the other in history, between scientists, engineers, architects, accountants, fianciers, etc., on the one hand...and poets, fictional authors, philosophers, etc. on the other hand....I'd choose the former, without any hesitation
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
You fail to recognize the inseparable correlation between the ideas generated by philosophy and acting on those ideas by accountants, financiers, architects, etc
Modern capitalism, as we practice it, would not exist today without the philosophy of John Locke and Adam Smith, among others.
FIRST comes the ideas- the results of THINKING- then comes the action you respect and admire so much
Why you admire the house and pay no heed to the foundation is beyond me
The foundation always comes first.
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: contd...also, you can have all the philosophers in the world, but it's the ones who implement the philosophies and work to make nations great....you can't get around it....money...finance.....personal property....personal incentives....love is a powerful force....happiness is pursued...but materiality is chased to bring some happiness....you're kicking against the bricks here
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
How could people implement ideas if they didn't exist?
It is the philosophers who shape the world.
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
Economics is itself a philosophy, especially those which advocate lasseiz-faire ideals, such as the Austrians.
They like to think they are scientific, but really they're just guessing with their human, imperfect logic.
And then when the flaws are exposed through superior logic or empirical data, they simply insist that we didn't go far ENOUGH. If we had, naturally, everyone would see how right they were and how the results were wrong.
Philosophy, did I say? Sheesh, this is more like RELIGION.
Lodatzor 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3: i have nothing against learning some literature, but it's patently clear that you are a liberal idealist/socialist/day-dreamer, who needs to get into reality a bit more....you and your "happy" philosophy are ludicrous...you are not grounded in reality...i'll educate you on that plane, if you'd like...lol
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
go for it.
I think the fundamental premise of the market system- that the consumer plays the role of checking market forces- doesn't work in a society where the average person is completely disconnected from the methods of production, and frankly, there's no nice way to say this, isn't well educated enough to make informed choices.
If Americans were well educated, our system would function as it is supposed to. But they aren't, so it doesn't.
Econ 101
I'll give myself an A+
Good evening
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
I'm interested in this concept of "reality" you speak of. This "reality" that I am separated from- could you discuss it. What is it like? What are its virtues? Why should I, as you seem to suggest, "join reality"?
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: you don't have to join the reality....you'll continue to not be taken seriously....go ahead and try to evaluate nations based upon their "happiness".....lol......lol...you never defined that, did you? LOL
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
You know, I wish you had some humility- you COULD have just written this: I don't know.
Clearly, you don't understand your own terms and can't even define them.
Too bad- I was interested in showing you how your version of reality is JUST as dilusional as mine, if not more so.
I'll do it anytime you're ready. Let me know :)
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: we covered ad nauseum the reality from which you are separated....you'd rather hide in a book of poetry than deal with reality....that's fine....right or wrong, few people (relatively speaking) can make a living as a philosopher, poet, writer, daydreamer....I'd highly suggest engineering, accounting, finance, law, architecture, carpentry, bricklaying, etc.....you must be a professor of B.S.??? lol...most liberal arts professors I know are B.S....lol
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
I doubt you know any liberal arts professors- if you did you would have more respect for them
who says I hide in a book? who says I don't live in reality?
these were baseless assumptions you made because I show so much knowledge of history and politics (as well as art- which is the best!)
You assumed- oh, this guy uses history and knows stuff- he must live in an ivory tower removed from reality
That was a mistake
I bet I have seen more of the world, and more of the USA, than you have or will
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: truthfully, I know many liberal arts professors...I conjure genuine respect for few of them....most (notice I didn't say "all") would not be able to make much money in the real world....that's why they decided to teach...I have multiple degrees and have gone back to college to get certain classes for another certification....I can't believe how un-worldly and naive some of them are....I also have family members in academia, so your assumptions are incorrect.
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
How sad- it always comes down to money for the right. They have been so effectively brainwashed that they cannot think of ANY other way to measure life or success than in terms of dollar bills.
It's really quite tragic.
And sad. For you.
When you lay on your deathbed, do you honestly think you will be thinking about how much money you made?
I don't think anyone does.
Have a great day.
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: you may or may not have seen more than I have...how would we know? lol,,,,and just for the record, I haven't seen much evidence of your vast knowledge of history, politics, nor art...I'm not saying you don't possess grand knowledge of these subjects, but you certainly haven't evidenced it here....lol
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
Well, let's have a debate. Have you read de Tocqueville's Democracy in America?
I would like to use that text as evidence to prove just how far our society has degenerated in the last 180 years.
Also, Aristotle discusses the cyclical nature of govts. What did he say about democracy? What eventually happens to ALL democracies?
I'll give you a snickers bar if you get it right- it will be tough to google that one- so you may have to actually know something.
as for art- viva sterne and pissarro
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: we would disagree on why society has degenerated...in my opinion, the "social progressives" have a lot to do with it...and the loss of pride...I do blame a lot of it on the liberals....and if you wish to start down the road of "showing off" in various areas, anyone can stump another person with pieces from their fields...you don't make a lot of sense....
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
Well, what EVIDENCE do you have to suggest that "social progressives" are the chief architects of our society's degradation?
As far as politically speaking, it is easy, using de Tocqueville, to see how our system has become so corrupt
For example, do Tocqueville points to 3 strengths of American society in 1831- 1. a tiny army of 6,000 people
2. a VERY diverse, independent media
3. relative equality- no huge disparities in wealth
Those key strengths are all gone today- and we suffer as a result
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: and I whole-heartedly agree with #2 and #3...#1 would be mere foolishness in today's world...the nation's with the best/strongest military will be better off, and assuming that nation is not evil, it will protect the others, who could not or would not support a strong military
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
well, we have the best, strongest military- and I don't think we are better off.
I don't think you appreciate the danger a militarized society poses to liberty.
we never have money for health care, or mass transit- or anything that will make society better. But, we ALWAYS have trillions to throw away on useless, unnecessary wars.
Being a strong military power, I would argue, actually hurts our society in many ways.
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: ah, yes, the media....the liberal media....lol.....I see that the media and Hollywood have done everything they can to influence (subtly and unsubtly) the minds of Americans, especially children...these social progressives have tried to undermine parental authority in many ways...that was the first step in their plan....the schools started teaching socialism/liberalism crap...I could go on and on....
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
I doubt you could go on and on- at least, rationally
I hear about the liberal media all the time- I just don't SEE it.
It's all a bunch of crap the right cooks up to make excuses for their failed policies (a position bill kristol actually admitted to).
The two biggest events in liberaldom over the last 10 years: Opposition to the war in Iraq, and advocating for single-payer health care.
I double dog dare you to find ONE mainstream media outlet that advocated either of those positions
You Kant
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: chances are you don't see it, cuz you don't wish to face it....there have been polls for years that show most journalists/media persons are libs...I can tell you are one of those libs who won't concede anything of substance...I'm just wasting my time...opposition to the war??...surely you are high...lol....all your "mainstream" media were opposed to the war and beat Bush up about it...now they don't talk about it with Obammy in there.
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
I do appreciate the way our preconceived ideas have a tendency to blind us to reality- we must all maintain vigilance on that front at all times.
It's not easy.
What mainstream media outlet opposed the Iraq war when it MATTERED (between Oct. 2002 and March 2003?)
I understand the media turned against it after things went crazy- but they failed to do their preliminary job- which would have avoided the whole needless war in the first place.
And who advocates single payer?
liberal media my ass
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: we know...it's never "rational" or "logical" when it doesn't drink the liberal cool-aid....lol
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
LOL.
Kool aid jokes?
These are still funny to you?
Everything you guys do is from the past- you still push reagan's outdated economics, still call enemies commies, and still make kool-aid jokes.
You guys are so old.
No wonder all the funny people are leftist.
Y'all have got the sense of humor of a dung beetle after a slow monsoon season.
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: and you need to keep your daytime job...no "jokes" for you...yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree...I don't think you and I would agree on the color of the sky...but November will be very interesting...you know I'm waiting in great anticipation to see the youtube videos....I have a distinct feeling the Left will be 1/2 hiding out and 1/2 displaying their seething madness for the world to see....lol
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
Yeah, dung beetle jokes are so cliched. I really should have put a little more effort into that.
How do you feel about corporate influence over our govt?
Do you think they have too much influence?
What effect do the billions of lobbying dollars from big business have on our politics?
One more try from a different angle perhaps.
Life is fun.
be young.
Drink Pepsi.
and stay off the grass!
tristramshandy3 2 years ago
@tristramshandy3: money will always bring influence...they should take some of the undue influence out of the game...but it gets complicated with 1st Amendment rights...I didn't get a chance to read that latest Supreme Court case that Obama railed againse recently...but i'm more worried about lowering corporate income tax rates to lure more corps./jobs back to our shores...we have the highest corp. tax rates in world (except India)
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
I don't think it gets complicated at ALL with 1st amendment rights. PEOPLE have first amendment rights- corporations do NOT- well, actually, they do now, but that is a gross perversion of our constitution, a document that doesn't mention corporations ONE TIME.
Our founders could not have seen the way money would consolidate, and the power these transnational corporations would have over our system- and they failed to plan for it.
Hey, they were only men- just like us.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3: contd....Ireland reduced their corp. rates five years ago or so and reaped mega benefits...these Dems and Repubs enjoy the lobbyists' money/trips/etc....it happens on the state level even more....there should be some overhaul...I don't know what would work best right now...
ConservativeRuleinUS 2 years ago
I don't think many corporations are paying ANY taxes at all. The laws always have loopholes, and you would be surprised how little rich people, and wealthy businesses, actually pay.
Dropping the tax rate won't do shit- not when people will work for 50 cents a day in Venezuela or Indonesia.
Globalization has destroyed our economy.
At least, that's how it seems to me.
I'm sure you'll find some reason to disagree :)
Take care!
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3: you are totally misinformed...the USA would benefit tremendously from lower corporate tax rates....as I said, Ireland lowered theirs and reaped great benefits...google it and explore...and the rich pay the bulk of the taxes in this nation....there's no way around it...they have $ to hire excellent CPAs to turn over every rock on the tax laws, but they still pay the bulk of the taxes here...you've bought that liberal nonsense, hook, line, and sinker....
ConservativeRuleinUS 1 year ago
So I started talking about getting corporate cash out of our elections, and you responded by saying we should cut corporate taxes.
How does that fix our broken political system?
Ireland most likely reaped mega benefits (as you wrote) because for 30 years, they invested heavily in education.
Why do you associate their success with only tax cuts?
What is that based on? (besides blind ideology...LOL!)
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
I just googled "irish financial success". The first article that came up talked about how the primary reason why the irish were increasing their financial services capabilities was because of a well trained, productive work force.
That links back DIRECTLY to my claim that education was the reason for their success- which was, in fact, a SOCIALIST, govt sponsored investment in the community.
Just another example of how govt CAN work!
have a nice day.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3: Ireland is currently the second richest country in the European Union, with a per capita GDP higher than that of Germany, France and Britain. But in the mid-1980s, the economy was faltering, college graduates were emigrating, and the outlook was bleak: "We went on a borrowing, spending and taxing spree, and that nearly drove us under," said Deputy Prime Minister Mary Harney. "It was because we nearly went under that we got the courage to change."
ConservativeRuleinUS 1 year ago
and one of the changes they made was a LARGE, govt, socialist investment in public education.
Again, what evidence do you have to suggest their success is due to tax rates and not a well educated work force?
It could be both- but you made a really blind, ideological argument- as free marketeer capitalists are prone to do.
Well, as ALL ideologues are prone to do.
Things are rarely as black and white as ideologues WANT them to be.
Take care man.
Life is still fun!
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3: i'm beginning to find that you are very disingenuous...i just googled "Ireland's drop in corporate income tax rate" and found tons of stuff...typical lib...find what you want to find...dropping the corporate income tax rate is the CORRECT measure...whether you like it or not...i pasted a bit for you in the last post...can't post many characters here
ConservativeRuleinUS 1 year ago
How was I disingenuos? I TOLD you what google search I did- and what results I found.
I never claimed dropping the corporate tax rate had NOTHING to do with their success- but I had heard a story about how they had invested heavily in education, and as someone who understand how important education is, I figured that HAD to be a large factor in their success.
I EASILY found evidence to back up that assertion.
Again, you are being an ideologue.
Tax rates might be ONE reason.
They might NOT.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
Also, I made a couple of points you were unable or unwilling to respond to, and your argument suffers as a result.
You spke of the liberal media.
I asked you to find examples of the mainstream media being against the war between oct 2002-march 2003. I also challenged you to find a mainstream media outlet advocating the liberal position on health care-single payer.
It's nice to just SAY liberal media.
I'd prefer evidence.
Got any?
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3: i'm not going to go and do your homework for you...it's disingenous for anyone to sit there and tell me that the mainstream media does not have a liberal slant....next you'll tell me they're conservative...lol...before talk radio and FOX News (a direct response to the liberal-leaning mainstream media in USA), there were almost NO fair and balanced media
ConservativeRuleinUS 1 year ago
I didn't ask you to do my homework. I have researched this issue far deeper than you have- that's why I know what I'm talking about- and when I ask people for SPECIFICS to back up the INCORRECT theory that the USA mainstream media is "liberal", I never get anything of substance.
They can name a couple of books- both of which I have read and refuted.
They LOVE pointing to a study about journalists and their politics that doesn't really prove anything.
Got anything I haven't read and refuted?
tristramshandy3 1 year ago