CCW 2.147: Batman - Battle for the Cowl #3 REVIEW (Part 2)

[comicculturewarrior]

@Myorw Sorry, Myorw before you get into the 'artistic talent' argument I'm a professional comic book writer myself. I make a living in the business. And we do what any movie critic would do with a film, which is express our opinions. And in America everyone's entitled to their opinion, aren't they? Just like you are. Elliott

[Bettyb127]

I've shared these reviews with a bunch of other comic geek friends. Thank you for pointing out the sheer utter terribleness that is Battle for the Cowl. Your comments make me laugh so hard I have tears running down my face.

I still don't understand why they put Tony Daniel on the main Batman title. Unlike Jose, I like the art, but the art doesn't make up for the terrible story. Also CATGIRL. Then again, we had AJ Lieberman write Hush Returns...

[deadeyeslave]

i like watching that guy get pissed, its funny. man im scared your going to have a heart attack on camra.

[comicculturewarrior]

I may one day. You never know. Stay tuned.

J.

[deadeyeslave]

lol, will do buddy

[kurumais]

I did really enjoy the secret six battle for the cowl tie in.  it was a great read from cover to cover I liked as much as agents of atlas that week and I think agents of atlas is marvels best book right now. I dropped secret six a while ago that issue made me regret it.

[comicculturewarrior]

We have a review of that Agent of Atlas issue which should be up in he next few days kurumis.

J.

[comicculturewarrior]

Yes, it will be up tomorrow and will signal another NEW BEGINNING for this channel!

TUNE IN TOMORROW AND SEE!

Elliott

[comicculturewarrior]

Why don't you put it up tonight you lazy bastich?

J.

[Nkerklaan]

Why'd you drop it, Kurumais, if you don't mind my asking?

(Secret Six has been my favourite current title pretty much since it started).

[kurumais]

hey NKerklaan

one reason like most of us i buy too many books

but the main reason is when i read a villian book i dont want to see them be kind of heroey i want to see them be villains.

its a tough line to tip toe along to have a villian as your protagonist but not your hero and i didnt think the book was doing that very well. but TBFTC secret six tie in i think did everything right i might start picking it up again

[pobra17]

i think that i've trashed this book enough... suffice to say i agree with every word of this review.... i forgot about the fucking hologram scene.... goddamn.

[RODNEY383]

speaking of different (bad) art styles did you guys see Gotham knight the 4 part animated feature that came out around the time of dark knight ? what did you guys think of a anime spin on an American comic hero ?

[comicculturewarrior]

I liked the beginning with all the kids talking about how they saw Batman and the story with Deadshot. Other then that I didn't care for it. I dug the animation but hated most of the writing.

J.

[kurumais]

i havent seen a consistent characterization of jason todd since they brought him back. every writer writes as an almost completely different character. in batman, NW OYL, countdown recently in robin and now here. its like not one jason todd came back but 4 or 5 of him. i want a number to call so i can vote to kill him AGAIN!

[johnnyhorror92182]

I'm drunk an' I'ma gonna start a fight with you's guys! Nah, just kiddn'! (although I have been drinking...)

I digress.....I know you guys really hate this book, I can't bring myself to hate anything Batman (except Joel Shumakers' "Batman & Robin")

I mean, I'm the guy who wrote a nasty letter to Comic Book Club after they panned Kevin Smith's Batman: Cacaphony"! (ps - Smith is doing another Batman mini-later this year. Boo-Ya!)

[mastulogan]

Wow. All I can say is wow.

[Trollzrule]

rofl @ the hologram. how fucking cheesy

[mastulogan]

Well let's face it. Some people want to review the things they buy well because it means they were justified in buying it. If BFTC is really terrible and you bought it, wouldn't that make you feel worse?

[pobra17]

i actually bought it just so i could complain about it, how twisted is that??

[comicculturewarrior]

You're a sick, twisted fuck, pobra. You better get some professional help.

;-)

Elliott

[pobra17]

tell me about it! So, do you know of any good head shrinker's, medicine men or voodoo priests? I don't trust so called "professionals"

[variantgirl17]

Jose, what us viewers want to know is ..How do you really feel about this whole series.? :P

but seriously, yeah this whole series did not do it for me, and I'm glad am seeing a honest review of it rather than the one million positive reviews put out there to appease the fanboy masses, which are not really saying anything anyway. I wonder if people picked up on half the stuff you critiqued in this and other issues ?

Makes you wonder if they are reading the same books.

[misanthropicmumlover]

however, on the lighter side of things, this was only a mini series anyway to set up the status quo. i can understand that yer a bat-fanatic J, but to me personally, it just wasn't that important compared to everything that's going to be coming down on the bat mythos in the summer. i'm sure by july, you'll have already washed the taste of bftc out your mouth with the new direction. not to mention, blackest mf night!!!

[locusmortis]

why does there need to be a miniseries to set a new agenda? why can't this be done in the normal monthly book?....at $2.99?

is this going like wwe wrestling where the important things only happen in "event miniseries" (i.e. pay-per-views) and monthlies are just a bunch of meaningless setups (i.e monday night raw, smackdown etc) ?

[misanthropicmumlover]

hmm. i was never aware that j winnick was originally responsible for BFTC. if he was indeed the first choice and DC did go through with him, this story would have turned out far better then it did

what i think happened here though is dc did the writer change up as safe marketing strategy, in the form of what E was saying, a commity, becus i dont know if u guys follow monthly sales, but everything RIP (prtly wrten by Daniels) sold through the roof. as a result, judd got axd.

[pmknight12]

l'm glad that u brought up editorial, Jose. Seems that the problem w / many of the mainstream comics comes from the guys that say; fuck it, it does'nt have 2 be good, it has 2be tuesday!

That ....is the reason why l believe there's bs out there like this breed of 'artist' that relies more on polaroids( Land, Jae L, Bradstreet,Mack,etc.) being touted as modern masters and folks that at best, have a good notion of an idea, but can't see it thru(BFTC,Rulk, the new old Flash,etc)

knight out

[locusmortis]

Its always been that way thought. A case in point is Vinnie Coletta.

[ADVS14U2NV]

Is Judd Winnik the guy from the Real World?

[comicculturewarrior]

Yup.

Elliott

[zcorp79]

I personally would rather have seen Tim become the new Batman since in the Robin series he was acting more like Bruce just my opinion. Also in my opinion I think Dick being Red Robin could of made since because he feels like Bruce is still out there, but the same can be said about Tim. But of course it all boils down to the fact that Grant Morrison wanted to write Dick as Batman and Damien taking over as the new Robin

[BlackPhoenix06]

Knowing Batman, its not impossible to think he'd have prepared something like the halogram recording in the event of his death.

Its interesting - you guys make this series sound so BAD I almost want to pick it up. Almost like its so bad it has to be good kind of thing.

[Nkerklaan]

This really just sounds like so bad it's bad. So bad its good was "Superman & Batman Vs. Vampires & Werewolves".

[BlackPhoenix06]

This comic being so bad, though, just makes me want to buy it all the more because of unbelievably bad it seems to be. And on top of that there are other reviewers on Youtube are enjoying immensly. You have one book and several sharply contrasting opinions. I at the point where I want to know if CCW is a bit too over critical on a story not meant to be scrutinized or if other reviewers or fans don't know sh*t when its steaming right infront of them.

[Nkerklaan]

"Not meant to be scrutinized"? All stories are meant to be scrutinized. "But you're being too analytical about it!" is the worst fucking argument that could possibly be used to defend something. You're basically admitting it's shitty, but saying "It's not so shitty if you don't look at it too hard."

[BlackPhoenix06]

Yes. Like Rulk, some comics aren't made to be great or masterpieces. Just made to be fun or brigde gaps in order to make way better stories in the future. BFTC accomplished a necessary task in finding a new Batman and Robin albeit in very a polarizing fashion. This comic may not be that good to these guys but others found it be a series worth every penny.

[Nkerklaan]

"Some comics aren't good but they're there to fill in gaps between better comics."

Is that your argument?

Because if so, that's the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard.

[BlackPhoenix06]

How so? BFTC prives my point. Its not a masterpeice in the opinion of some but it dead it what it was made to do: accend someone into the mantle of Batman. Sure, it could have been better according to some but it wasn't, and at the end of the day it accomplished its main goal which, again, was give the DCU a new Batman and show vital his existence is to Gotham.

[Nkerklaan]

But you're saying that it's okay for a comic to be shitty as long as it moves the story along. That's a terrible argument, and it's attitudes like yours that lead to companies cranking out shitty books in the first place - "They'll buy it just because it's there."

And the story WAS pointless. Why couldn't the story of someone new taking up the mantle of the bat be done in the first issue or arc of Morrison's Batman & Robin? Oh, I know - because DC wants to milk money out of braindead fanboys.

[BlackPhoenix06]

Its not an argument its the reality of things.

Fans like me aren't the ones who have "Hulks" and "BFTC's" created, the ones who buy them each month do. See April's sales. BFTC was # 1 and I can happily tell you my dollar did conrtibute to that.

They very well could have but you already said why they didn't - "because DC wants to milk money out of braindead fanboys". Thats exactly why they did it and with the numbers BFTC has each month theres no reason to think they won't do it again.

[locusmortis]

Rulk is Jeph Loeb consistently phoning it in and laughing all the way to the bank.

[pobra17]

but BFTC was completely pointless....

[comicculturewarrior]

Let me tell you why other you tube reviewers like this book:

They do not understand what good art, writing, or storytelling is. They do not understand what good pacing, character development or resolution is. They say what they think other people want t hear. They give generic, contrived, boring reviews so as to not piss off fanboys. They are easily entertained by banal bullshit which is why they all love the top selling books in the industry. God forbid anybody be fucking CRITICAL.

J.

[comicculturewarrior]

Sigh.

Let's all cool off folks. It's a friggin' Batman comic, not the Geneva Accords. BlackPhoenix likes the book, others didn't. It's all opinion and everyone's welcome to like what they wanna like.

Let's keep it civil. If you wanna rip something, go read Xena/Army of Darkness and tell me how much it sucked. I can take it.

;-)

Elliott

[BlackPhoenix06]

To be clear, I don't necessarily have a definite opinion on the book. I'm just saying since most others give a positive to luke warm review it can't be as terrible as Jose makes seem. And I don't think the art is as intolerable Jose thinks either. My two cents. Take it or leave it. :-P

[locusmortis]

You cannot be too critical. If something is being presented for purchase and its not up to standard then people have every right to give an opinion on its worth.

I prefer to hear an honest opinion than to hear the bland non-opinions from other "critics"

[BlackPhoenix06]

I agree, but then again some stories just aren't penned to be that deep or thought provoking. Case in point: Rulk.

[locusmortis]

so then a comment like "this is mind-numbingly dull" would be fair comment

[Nkerklaan]

This is less about disagreeing with BP's opinion on the book now and more about disagreeing with his apparent philosophy of art in general, which seems to amount to A) shitty work is okay as long as it gives people something to buy, B) saying something "isn't meant to be looked at too deeply" somehow invalidates all criticism of it, and C) if the majority of people like something, the opinion of anyone who doesn't like it carries less weight.

Please explain to me how that's not insane.

[comicculturewarrior]

Art is subjective. We all see it differently. Arguing over which artist is better than another is like arguing if orange juice is wetter than apple juice.

You can try an argue one's wetter than the other but there's no real way to prove it.

Elliott

[Nkerklaan]

Of course you're right, Elliott, but again, I'm arguing against general attitude as opposed to his specific opinion.

I suppose that's just as pointless in the end, but I seriously think it's attitudes like that that hold artistic mediums back.

[VargasXX78]

Why does DC do this?!?... Dick Grayson already WAS Batman.. he fought his demons and his issue with Two-Face and fought to be his own man...

He does not have to live in the shadow of Bruce... just freaking bring back the real Batman and be done with it... hell.. if not that.. let the other Gotham heroes carry on the legacy.. Damn this sucks

[BlackPhoenix06]

You guys still don't the art in this book? Admittently, its not very consistent but even with that some pages do look better than others so its to be called a terrible looking comic. The opening splash page with Nightwing directing all the heroes on the roof top was not bad, in my opinion, and was on of the better pieces in the comic. This is far from a terrible looking comic albeit having some of the better pages juxtaposed with the lesser admirable ones. Not terrible. Call it decent enough.

[comicculturewarrior]

The art is complete shit. It is not "decent enough". It is the DEFINITION of a terrible looking comic! Look BP, we have had this discussion over and over and over again. I don't agree with your definition of good art and you don't agree with mine. I am quite tired of having this discussion.

J.

[BlackPhoenix06]

Hey, hey, no need to be so heated. That was my two cents is all. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that stuff, no?

[Nkerklaan]

It's still possible for some art, especially comic art, to be objectively bad. Just from a technical and storytelling perspective. You can say it looks okay to you all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it's BAD art.

[BlackPhoenix06]

Deja Vu, anyone? :-)

[Nkerklaan]

Well then quit starting the same arguments.

[BlackPhoenix06]

I didn't start anything. I posted what I felt grounded on the discussion had in the video as anyone else is free to do. How or if you guys choose to repsond is entirely up to you.

[locusmortis]

I think its a pity that a great artist like Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez was shunted off to a minor book like Batman Confidential while Tony Daniel and his jim lee knockoff art were put on this book.

I guess it just shows that fanboys will always go with the name rather than objectively choosing what is good art.

And if you say that Tony Daniel is a better artist than JLGL then I'm gonna hunt you down :P

[BlackPhoenix06]

Hahaha I've seen Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez's artwork.

[locusmortis]

And its far better than Tony bleedin Daniel.

[BlackPhoenix06]

Oops. I mean to say I've NEVER seen Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez's artwork, but I'll give it a look.

[locusmortis]

lol was wondering what you were at, Batman Confidential 26-28 was his last project.

[BlackPhoenix06]

Judging his artistry on the covers of those issues alone I'd say he's not too bad.

[DVGamer7]

im so sick of these generation changes.

It was good when The Phantom did it... everyone else is lameee...

then there is the sons/daughters re-literations.

What ever hapend to the ones with originality like Nightcrawler and Mystique.

[generaldark]

holy crap i have been waiting all day for part 2!

[comicculturewarrior]

Hope it was worth the wait!

Elliott

[agmaster]

So this is what it is like to race for first? Now to have something worth replying to. I agree with this being a trial by fire for TD. He should've dealt with the characters better. Seriously and all the early leakage just piled it on.