Nicholas Humphrey Interview (1/4) - Richard Dawkins

[exiledregiment]

you're lucky this video hasent been taken down by the SOPA act.

[SonicEpiphonic]

In the U.S. we have, for the most part anyway, a for profit health care system. Much of it, the pharmaceutical industry in particular, seems increasingly to be in the business of treatment, rather than prevention or curing. So many people that I know, across the age spectrum, are on prescription drugs on an ongoing basis. I find myself wondering how much of it is really necessary and how much could be handled with lifestyle/dietary changes and in some cases cheaper non-manufactured remedies.

[theotormon]

Humphrey has an interesting mind. I believe he is right about a great deal of things, and also wrong about a great deal -- but brilliantly wrong. His ideas, though firmly naturalistic, hint at a formidable poetic imagination.

[diekontrolleure]

@theotormon he is the son of asshole huxley

[rooley]

I wonder if knowing about the placebo effect lessens it's effect. A case of knowing too much for your own good.

[cakeisnotanumber]

People turn to alternative medicine because orthodox medicine has failed to help them. If someone suffers from depression or something like chronic fatigue syndrome, sadly these things are difficult to fix. Therefore people turn to alternative medicine out of desperation.

The alternative practitioner might be the first person that has listened to them or given them any confidence that they can be helped. However it's a sham and is only a placebo at best.

[Thephyguy]

@cakeisnotanumber Some people are taught to be that way. Also humans like to believe in magic and other voodoos. It's not just a failure of orthodox medicine necessarily.

[Limposium]

That's the best explaination of the placebo-effect in medicine I've ever heard.

[Bobstew68]

@Limposium I quite agree. Or, since I can't verify his claims here and now, at least it's the most optimistic one. :)

[klindred]

If this is true then perhaps anti-depressant medications shouldn't come with a list of side effects more extensive than the malady it is supposed to treat. I mean, i have seen these leaflets in those boxes say that a side effect of anti depressant medication is depression!! If doctors know all about the placebo effect and they tag such a long list of side effects onto the drugs maybe they are unconsciously aiding the appearance of these effects.

[MrB0wner]

@indoctus41 I've had my appendix out through modern medicine, I know a few others who have, if modern medicine only occasionaly contributed to patient health then I doubt we would all have made it. I hope if your appendix ever decides your days are numbered, you don't go to a doctor, I'm sure a nice herbal tea will fix it, maybe some onion juice and scented candles. I don't want to be nice about this, I'd be dead if not for modern medicine. Do fuck off.

[indoctus41]

Modern medicine has a great potential to carry out meaningful strategies that occasionally contributes to the health of patients, but medical science is now irrevocably linked to the capitalist model, distorting the goals and the results.

[Intiom]

"occasionally contributes to the health of patients"

Please provide your evidence that modern medicine "occasionally contributes". How does this compare to your eivdence for alternative medicine?

[indoctus41]

@Intiom:

Wrong forum. I'm not even going to try to provide evidence for my statements on a 500 character messageboard. The bigger issue is that modern medicine is fully part of the capitalist model in the US (to a lesser degree elsewhere) and it should come as no surprise that due to the fact that the sickness can be bought and sold as a commodity, there is not much in it for the patient.

[Intiom]

@indoctus41

Wrong logic. If you knew in advance you weren't going to support what you say: don't say it. You made a claim, you can't back it up. It is completely predictable that you then focus on your second point more than the first: 'If you didn't buy that one... how about THIS one?'

Your views on how capitalised medicine has become does not justify saying that proven empirical medicine only "occasionally contributes" to health.

[indoctus41]

@Intiom

Nope. You have bought into the propaganda, predictably, that modern medicine is structured to maintain and perhaps even improve your health. So has Dawkins, and I challenge you both on the point. Modern medicine, structured on capitalist principles, will display the aspects of that model.

No free market economy has ever placed achievement ahead of profit. Perhaps one day that might happen if humans evolve towards some advanced state of altruism.

[badmofker]

i really enjoy these interviews. However, can we PLEASE have the camera work sorted out. All this moving from side to side makes me feel nauseous

[bando8000]

Absolutely brilliant!

[FreeeeS]

pain is what doesn't make us do that stupid thing that hurt it simply teaches our psyche pain should be considered a friend of medicine

[cszar]

The study he mentions on placebo surgery had one drawback: the post-surgical treatment protocol (with Physiotherapy) was the same (surgical patients and placebo group). In my view - and based on other studies - this post surgical treatment was responsible for the patients improvement - not the sham surgery.

[oregonmotorcyclist]

Human cannabiniods are probally responsible for the placebo effect. Too bad corruption will never let any trials be held.

[adrianfi7]

Yeah lets listen to the psychologist, the people who has a great rate of suicide, drug abuse and rape. This moron can´t even speak clearly. Wonder why all these "smart" people come from London world capital of witchcraft.

[Reghedable]

@adrianfi7

You figured it out man.

Have a cookie.

[detectivesyme]

Humphrey is a much more serious thinker than Dawkins. Dawkins is just a celebrity atheist. Humphrey is a looking for truth.

[10dmartin10]

So Cannabinol is not being used in cancer treatment?>

[GuBB3rGuN]

@10dmartin10 LEGALIZE POT!

[inglefud]

Agreed. There is junk alternative medicine, but I think they are being a bit short sighted by suggesting if it is not carried in mainstream western medicine then it is not a valid medicine. Take cannabis for example, there is much evidence to support its effectiveness on nausea and glycoma, but its not being widely prescribed or carried.

[AtheistBrit]

That's an exception though because of its status as an illegal drug.

[MopDMTBARTL]

My goal in life is to contribute enough to society each day in order to NEVER be considered a USELESS Eater! (in the words of Kissinger).

Go here:

Truthknowledge. Com

Its time we wake up! After all the biggest LIE / joke / asinine issue that totally destroys our govts creditability is the fact that cannabis or marijuana, a substance healthier than caffeine & sugar (not the natural kind in fruit), is ILLEGAL!!! Wake up!!!!

[kurtilein3]

i dont like it when doctors talk so much about placebos... i can see the usefulness of it, but there are flipsides.

one of my relatives got treated with placebos in 2 situations when he actually was very very seriously ill, just because the symptoms were difficult to interpret. people normally dont get their first symptoms of multiple sklerosis at an old age, and the doctors wasted weeks until they started taking the patient seriously and to get the diagnosis right.

[tmtyler]

Nicholas Humphrey seems to be arguing convincingly against a good deal of Dawkins thesis in the program here.

[synkronyk]

As much as I respect Dr Humphrey's views in psychology, he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about when discussing anything else it seems.

[timmyzeus]

As you ought not to attempt to cure the eyes without the head, or the head without the body. So neither ought you attempt to cure the body without the soul, and this is the reason why the the cure for many diseases is unknown to the physicians of Greece, because they are ignorant of the whole, which OUGHT TO BE STUDIED ALSO, for the part can never be well unless the whole is well.

Plato.

[smithhedgehog]

christ! i think thats what you call 'being ahead of your time' - platos was genius.

[SmartPorcupine]

timmyzeus, by your analogy soul envelopes the body, in other words, body is just an organ of the said soul. Cool. Can you prove it's there? What is it made of? Do you know any of its physical characteristics? Can we make one? Where does it come from? How does it affect our health? Do we really need one? Can we have more than one? Can you break a soul? If Yes: How? Can you lose it, sell it, trade it, or regain it? Says who?

... please be specific.

[timmyzeus]

It can be felt, but not by the mind, Its made of light, no physical characteristics, no we cant make one we are one, comes from the body of God/monad, when we live in ignorance or separation from the soul we are directly responsible for illness or ill health. We are a soul expressing form. soufulness is our true state of being. You can not loose it trade it sell it break it. We can only live in separation to it Hense our world and all its illness and disease The soul knows only harmony and love

[SmartPorcupine]

So what am I? Is soul something other than me, or am I a soul, and bodies are just the form we perceive? How can I be in separation from my self (if I am the actual soul)? It seems there has to be two me, two different cognitive states in order for this to be true. Does soul think, or is the thinking reserved for the mind? If my essence is the soul, how can I become separate from it? Wouldn't that entail that I am actually something other than said soul and can exist without it?

[timmyzeus]

You are a body of light. The soul knows itself to be this. Man needs to re-awaken the lost and forgotten ability to feel energy and thus know truth and love from an energetic perspective and not from any other. When thought is impulsed from the soul we have divine expression. There have been many masters throughout history who have shown us this by their living example. Plato is one. I am no such master. All I have is some knowledge. I am yet to make it a livingness.

[timmyzeus]

We choose to EXIST separately to it. We are never without a soul. We have created such a dense cloud around it we have to sadly ask what it is. I guess the journey back begins with these questions.

[Consciousish]

What people confuse with spirituality, is the connection we have with the physical world. The fact that molecular biology evolved by extracting energy from its environment proves then that it is a part of the environment as well as a function of it. You can't describe the individual without describing his environment, therefore the two are inseperable and I can call planet earth my SELF just as much as i can call this body my self. The Universe is my SELF. This is far more profound than religion

[theundertakerjr6]

An advertisement for Mercedes

[lukelewisDOTnet]

If he's a professor at LSE, why have they got UEA in the background? Bizarre...

[stillceaser]

Hardly. Professors get about, conferences, guest lectures, etc. You'd be more surprised to see him at a Stringfellows than another University. Engage your brain dear boy.

[lukelewisDOTnet]

Might want to take the softcore pornography off your Favourites before being condescending...

[lukelewisDOTnet]

[That was a comment for stillceaser]

[stillceaser]

That has little to do with my point. If your reasoning is based on inconsequential defamation, I'd say you have a lot to learn. The mere fact that you'd take any kind of offense to my comment reveals an inherent petulance.

[lukelewisDOTnet]

... why are you responding to my response to stillceaser?

[slubint]

Then why do highly trained medical scientists, including consultants, work at the Royal Homeopathic Hospital??? Obviously because they are highly deluded, pseudo scientists. Why also does The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons refuse to catagorically condemn homeopathy. Not much placebo effect among cows successfully treated by slipping a homeopathic remedy into a trough.

[RedDaVincy]

Logical fallacy: argument from authority.

[Nimzomyth68]

Very true, but by that logic Dawkins whole interview series displays the same fallacy. The whole series is an argument from authority.

[RedDaVincy]

It's not an argument at all. How could you say an entire series is an argument? People who said completely opposite things were both presented, and Dawkins was just a good listener.

[Nimzomyth68]

Who did Dawkins interview who say opposite things in this series?

[RedDaVincy]

Father Coyne and Steven Weinburg, one feels that the universe necessitates god and the other doesn't. Michael Baum and Nicholas Humphrey, one is deeply convinced of the value of holistic medicine and the other is highly skeptical. And Dawkins either agrees or listens, unlike certain folk.

[Nimzomyth68]

Good point.

[NegativeNick]

I think of this series more as Dawkins getting interesting people to talk about interesting things of which they know a lot about. Sometimes the interviews are just dawkins saying stuff like "isn't ben stein horrible?" and his interviee is like "totally" but the really good interviews are when he talks to doctors or biologists or theologans about their fields.

[chainzdown2dadik]

the fact that it's called alternative medicine if anything suggest that it is a reasonable substitute for conventional medicine. if it had anything at all to do with it being ineffective, it would be called pseudo-medicine. the difference between the two is the philosophical approach to medical practice. alternative medicine is however, given a bad name by people who make outrageous claims such as garlic can cure cancer. it is misunderstood and misrepresented by both, critics and proponents.

[hoomelemele]

a very articulate lunatic.

[lamplighteyes]

The placebo effect is something very powerful and almost impossible to overestimate, however, what Nicholas Humprey fails to mention is that "alternative" practitioners have absolutely no powers of diagnosis whatsoever. So regardless of whether some people respond better to these people or not, the alternatives do not have the training to diagnose illnesses and infections which need to be noticed early in order to be prevented. In that way, it's not only not as effective to visit the

[lamplighteyes]

alternatives; it's actively dangerous. A real doctor has the skills for instance to diagnose a cancer before it becomes malignant. This is literally a life & death matter. People don't spend half decades of their lives in medical school in order to learn that the placebo effect renders their entire profession useless. From the way Humphrey talks, you'd imagine the CT scanners, dialysis and life-support machines that fill our hospitals do nothing but tell our immunse systems to get on with it....

[austenbosten]

Does anyone know what Dawkins opinion on this "War on Anti-depressants" by so-called "doctors".

[dropbear22]

although many things Richard talks about I agree with, he sometimes is too skeptical to the point of pigeon holing things and blanketly disregarding them. While modern medicine has provided many things that alternative medicine cant deliver, there are also things that alternative medicines or methods can deliver that modern or western medicine cant. Acupuncture for one I know personally works. Humphrey appears to have a more balanced view on this which I would tend to agree with more.

[EllisRobbo]

The very reason why something is called 'alternative' is because there is no evidence that it has any effect. If some alternative medicines work 'better' than orthodox medicine then they wouldn't be an 'alternative'.

[dropbear22]

you might want to go look for a dictionary and look up what the word alternative means.

[Luigi84289]

Ellis, sorry but that is completely incorrect. Alternative means another way of doing something. Washing your car by hand is an alternative to taking it to a car wash.

[EllisRobbo]

The term alternative medicine, as used in the modern western world, encompasses any healing practice "that does not fall within the realm of conventional medicine."

Espousing or reflecting values that are different from those of the establishment or mainstream.

[spotlitkiss]

okay - but why do you trust the 'establishment' or 'mainstream' so much?

who's funding the making of these medicines. i've been to the doctors on various occasions, and been given as you say, established prescriptions that have had no effect. i have not branched out to alternative methods either, as these days, i primarily focus on basic nutrition. giving someone antibiotics for bad skin for example, is really a rubbish idea, but that's what doctors do. don't trust everything

[ETLBAJB]

LUIGI ...

We are talking definitions of the term "alternative medicine" not of the word "alternative" !

[siyengar9821]

The scope of modern medicine is broader than all the alternative medicines put together. I am better of taking a vicodine than going to an accupuncturist.

[generationalist]

bdf2718 Thank you for your suggestion. I'll hold my position: placebo does NOT cure. @ ~6:15 Humphrey makes the claim that a placebo surgical incision cures a knee joint... ~6:45 Dawkins asks for "the physiological root by which the knee gets cured..." Humphrey replies "sometimes it SEEMS we need to get permission to use it". Humphrey has shifted from the position of "placebo cures" to "sometimes it seems". My ability to UNDERSTAND is NOT in question. Thanks again, I double checked for veracity.

[ceeqanguel]

you nailed that one right

:-)

understanding a fact or more complicatedly, the science behind that fact does not change truth

[jazzbutcher13]

The brain maintains behavior through intermittent reinforcement. If a patient receives reinforcing consequences from their "treatment" they are more likely to maintain that behavior. Our culture reinforces superstitious behavior so the probability is high that this behavior will flourish. People aren't taught to understand superstitious behavior so people like Hawkins continue to be reinforced for a perspective as arachaic as bloodletting. B.F. Skinner: Science over Superstition!

[Eyedunno]

Wow, smells like bullshit...

[MaBu888]

Alternative medicine is catastrophically unreliable, indeed.

[fuckapotomis]

I tried to explain to my friend why homeopathic medecine is BS. He got angry and called me closed minded. Great

[MaBu888]

I can relate to that, only my friend didn't call me closed-minded.

[fuckapotomis]

Its too tiring arguing these things, i just sit back dumbfounded by people's ignorance. Its actually quite entertaining, even if i sound like a pretentcious prat its true!

[lord69z]

I still cant control myself from swearing and face palming while "debating" anyone i know.

Its too frustrating i dont know how Dawkins/Hitcens do it.

[13248396]

practice..with time u wil learn to dominate a bit more and if u dominate the first 1-2 hours eventually then u can loose u calm after that, because the person u r talking is just trying to hold a debate towin u, not to be right or wrong or learn anything.

[pmcommando]

lol yes, if you dont beleive in things from ghosts to astrology to mediums and all that shit your closed minded... i get that all the time n its very frustrating!

[fuckapotomis]

It reminds me of my favorite saying

"If you open your mind too much your brain will fall out"

[RebelVoDKa]

"if you dont beleive in things from ghosts to astrology to mediums and all that shit your closed minded... i get that all the time n its very frustrating!"

And it's invariably said by people who have closed their minds to decades of rational scientific research.

[ANDROID697]

the truth is within are consciousness.level 4 comtilates metron fuse 78bionic waves.meta-physical astal projection level3 must be culminate to coeefficient.great broadcast..thanks

[toxzen]

Thanks for uploading keep up the good work.

[generationalist]

Propositum, please define irreplaceable and impractical? In the US we have a 40 hour work week. Is it irreplaceable? Today, we have a family unit with no adult at home to educate children. This is a fairly new social standard. It started within the last 50 years or so. Is this social order practical? Do we only look at a placebo to allay the symptoms with no interest in treating the source of the problem? Placebos do not cure, they mask the symptoms. The problem is bigger than the individual.

[ETLBAJB]

HEAR HEAR !

[Mjhavok]

That car break thing doesn't make sense to me. If I see I am going to hit a car I think it would be natural to jump on the breaks with as full a force as possible.

[LucidSteve]

Professor is overestimating placebo effect.

I don't think he wants to undermine medicine, he is just not an expert at medicine and has oversimplified the mechanisms of diseases, making him conclude that everything is in our mind and consequently can be healed through "mind over matter".

[Panpiper]

He is not asserting that everything is in our mind. What he does maintain is that the mind exerts an extraordinary influence on our body's ability to heal. If we believe we are going to heal, we will heal much more effectively than if we don't believe we will heal. This applies pretty much across the board regardless of the illness or injury. None of this however discounts the very real positive effect of proper treatment. They go hand in hand.

[Mjhavok]

Placebo heart surgery can fix an obstructed aorta? Doubt it.

[superfisto]

Blood letting has beneficial effects.

See: Survival of the Sickest.

[Valelacerte]

Ol' Dawkins loves his stand-up conversations; what's wrong with a nice fireside chat and a cup of tea?

[Mjhavok]

He is in his sixties and still has hair so he wants to show it blowing in the wind.

Why not?

[TheHairyHeart]

Cheers for the upload!

[generationalist]

I think I see what you are suggesting. Although anxiety is predominantly neurological - stress related. With that example you need to address bigger questions because black boxing the individual to resolve the individuals' stress issue is too small. From a behavioral view you need to ask the question do we need to treat the individual or society as a whole? Is it isolated to the individual or is stress induced anxiety in the populace on the rise? Is the individual sick or is society?

[willquestion]

I agree that belief can have an affect on our perception of pain or illness, as well as possibly increase the natural healing abilities of the body to a certain extent.

However, the body can only heal itself to a certain limited extent, hence the need for modern day doctors and medical science. To believe anything can be healing through sheer belief and willpower is a dangerous idea that can bring about a great deal of harm.

[JayKeaton]

Wow, two very knowledgeable and rational people talking about a subject from two different viewpoints, and clearly learning and understanding a great deal from each other. Perhaps Richard Dawkins is seeing for the first time now that the placebo effect is very powerful and useful, and he is imagining the future of medicine involving doctors who know everything about the body as they do now, but also everything on the mind so they respond to the patient emotionally to compliment the medical aid.

[Krumbz2003]

Great post man!

I completely believe in the practice of modern medicine yet I do think there is something to be said for the placebo effect.

To an extent.

In a way it is this same "effect" that religious folk have in common with each other... a sense of comfort - regardless of the truth or reality of it all.

[kornerols]

subtitulos ya porfavor!!!!!!

alguien q sea tan amable y setome el trabajo de traducir estos videos al castellano porfavor.

thanks=)

[sarcophyllus]

Why are anti-biotics so common in use with their harmful side-effects instead of the use of bacterio-phages  to cure bacterial infections?

Great topic!

[10mintwo]

what a load of old bollox. that psychologist should be ashamed. yeah why don't those aids patients just wish themselves well again!

[martynm]

Well you've thoroughly missed the point haven't you. The psychologist isn't saying we should give up conventional medicine and just hope the placebo effect cures everything, all he is doing is trying to make aware the power our bodies have to heal themselves. Bear in mind that pain and injury aren't necessarily synonymous. Do you really think humans managed to evolve this far without being self-healing? We can't just wish cancer and aids patients better, but for some people placebo is better.

[xxsummer713xx]

so true, i do think that your missing the point of the discussion.

[10mintwo]

Um no YOU missed the point. placebos don't cure diseases like HIV. They NEVER cure diseases like HIV and never are "better" than actual drugs.

[mattghtpa]

True, there is no placebo cure for falling off a 10 story building, but there a type of natural cure for AIDS. A known mutation from some idividuals that show an abcence of a cell receptor that does not allow the virus to attach to a cell.

[markgg1]

I agree.

I dont think the placebo effect is an excuse to con people into seeking out fake medicine

[thruthem]

Great as always!!

[generationalist]

Thoroughly confusing. I don't understand how the power of the mind can "cure" a staff infection. I can fully appreciate how placebo can suppress pain from a sprained ankle so you are able to walk on it until (although tenderly) until it is healed. But, I'm in the same boat as Dr. Dawkins with that look of incredulity at the comments relating to placebo "healing". Placebo's don't heal they deceive the brain into thinking the physical state is different that it's actual state.

[ETLBAJB]

Why wasnt Dawkins more forceful with the professor / did not show his usual level of disdain for "alternativors" ? He was too easy on him!.

[bdf2718]

Dawkins agrees with the point the guy is making. Don't just watch, UNDERSTAND what you're watching.

[ETLBAJB]

UNDERSTANDING has nothing to do with it ... simply because a professor of psychology makes statements does not cause ME to "understand"! -- i just hear his views. I dont see how you can say he agrees --- if a non-professor , like the alternative healer he interviewed a couple of weeks ago had spoken in the same way Dawkins would have been much more forceful . This time he seemed too polite to argue with a full-blown professor.

[bdf2718]

Understanding has everything to do with it.

The psych prof makes valid arguments, Darwinian arguments, that Dawkins agrees with, that there are reasons for accepting alternative medicine as efficacious.

I can give you a bottle of homeopathic water or a sugar pill and neither will be more effective than any other placebo. But ANY placebo is MORE effective than no treatment at all.

Why it's like that is intriguing. Now do me a favour and watch the video again and UNDERSTAND it.

[TheMathGuy]

Because he did in fact have a point. He was not trying to argue something that is clearly false (that there is evidence that "alternative medicines" work better than the placebo effect), he was simply making the point that the placebo effect is a very real phenomenon even if the stimulus has nothing to do with curing you. I still disagree with his position, but the argument against it is more subtle. I think he is over-estimating the power of the placebo effect.

[Dorfkanal]

"The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease."

-- Voltaire

[Ateapotist]

Thanks for uploading.

[ndjarnag]

fantastic stuff. keep it coming :)